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Thread: Lightwave 12 and Lightwave's future

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  1. #1
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    Lightwave 12 and Lightwave's future

    Lightwave 12 [whenever it happens] will make or break it as a 3D product. I don't think that it will go one way or the other. Either

    [1] Newtek fixes up the documentation, gives a unified option, updates the 1990ish system of layers, adds more features etc. Lightwave is competitive again and I could finally recommend it to a total novice at 3D.

    or

    [2] Newtek leaves Lightwave 12 pretty much the same as Lightwave 11. Autodesk will be waiting to pounce. Within a year Autodesk will buy up Lightwave.

    I think that Lightwave 12 is high noon. My private joke is "what's more secret than files from the KBG?" Answer: "Lightwave's feaures!" Look at Form Z, Hitfilm, Blender if you want to see industry standard systems of user help files and documentation. Having a Lightwave 10 help file without a pdf or GUI help or set of intro videos in the program doesn't cut it in 2014. I'm sorry but it doesn't.

    Newtek would have to be the most quasi-autistic extreme of engineering "if it works we don't need to sell it" mentality: brilliant engineers [ look at Chronosculpt] but just almost an opensource late 1980's company culture - we don't need to document because we pass around our ideas by word of mouth.

    I've probably narked off any Newtek employees who read this. But someone has to say it. You are so, so far behind the documentation curve. I'd say 20 years behind - having one help file from the last version and a mish mash of youtube videos - that was good enough in about 1995.

    It would be unwise for anyone in my opinion to just learn Lightwave. If Lightwave 12 flops you will want to be skilled in something else.

  2. #2

    somewhat true, F1 launches an old LightWave 10 webpage, not good...

    the pdf files for LightWave 11.6 can be found here >
    https://www.lightwave3d.com/account

    once signed in, you can download the pdf files...

    ---------------------------------------

    video tutorials can be found here >
    http://forums.newtek.com/showthread....26#post1220226
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  3. #3
    lightwave 12 being "seen" as a make or break release may just delay the release longer and longer...12 need to show 'movement' and commitment to bringing tools into one workspace be that modeller or layout or both.

    not a complete move in 1 version, that's just asking for waay too much, but demonstrate that it's possible with some modeller only stuff in layout and maybe some layout only stuff in modeller.
    as for this being the best way forward, well plan A didn't pan out well so this is plan B, keeping current users in a "lightwave environment" but moving on from the split app only approach to tools.

    there's plenty of opportunities out there...the deal is not done..other apps are stumbling/bumbling along not delivering good updates and so if NEWTEK get this right
    good times can be ahead for Lightwave 12 onward.
    Last edited by cresshead; 06-21-2014 at 08:50 PM.
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  4. #4
    I've worked in manufacturing and can't count the number of times I've heard some one say the companies future counts on the new product, just to hear some one else say the companies future counts on every product they release. I like Lightwave a lot and would like to see in improve. I like Newtek and the fact that they produce products that are affordable to a person who really wants to do video work at a pro level. I'm a bit shocked to not see more small production and animation houses. I see Newtek as providing opportunities to people who want to take it. I don't see them not making a major effort to put out a very good product at a reasonable price. I don't see it as any more of a turning point then any other release, they are all turning points and land marks the company needs to cross to stay in business.

  5. #5
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    Here are some the question I present to all here.
    What would be that X FEATURE that would be that magical bullet that would make LW the darling of the 3d World?
    It his something feasible and fair to the current dev team.

    Or do we finally accept as a community the fact that most of the pro market opinion about the app has calcified.
    And instead of going into another futile attempt to go a the "Front gate" we should try another path in the 3d world.
    And I am sorry to be a Debbie downer here , but whatever feature X we develop, it would be received by a shrug in the 3d marketplace.
    They assume that it s only a matter of time before their favorite current app will COPY X FEATURE.

    So what can LW team do for LW 12.
    I think the path Lw 12 should follow is one of STREAMLINING And USABILITY.
    Make an app that is NOT intimidating to the masses and gets a rep for its ease of use.
    Last edited by robertoortiz; 06-22-2014 at 04:31 PM.
    This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government, CG Networks or CGTALK.com. The opinions expressed on this posting are on my own volition.

  6. #6
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    lol Autodesk is not threatened by lightwave in and of itself. Lw needs restructuring at its roots and so there is no killer feature that would benefit Lightwave's popularity until the former happens.
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  7. #7
    Super Member Snosrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertoortiz View Post
    Here are some the question I present to all here.
    What would be that X FEATURE that would be that magical bullet that would make LW the darling of the 3d World?
    It is no longer a question of features - it's about workflows.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snosrap View Post
    It is no longer a question of features - it's about workflows.
    Yup...
    speaking of NEW workflows.
    http://forums.newtek.com/showthread....09#post1387809
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertoortiz View Post
    Make an app that is NOT intimidating to the masses and gets a rep for its ease of use.
    Hahahahahahahahahaha. Don't you know there's things you MUST painfully learn, and any attempted amelioration is misguided heresy? Foolish mortal!
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  10. #10
    Goes bump in the night RebelHill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertoortiz View Post
    Make an app that is NOT intimidating to the masses and gets a rep for its ease of use.
    Quote Originally Posted by jeric_synergy View Post
    Don't you know there's things you MUST painfully learn, and any attempted amelioration is misguided heresy? Foolish mortal!
    Yes... it IS foolish.

    You want easy and non technical, such apps exist... daz, poser, etc.

    At the end of the day, you can either have easy and non-technical on one end or you can have felxibility and versatility on the other, and you have to pitch somewhere in between. Moving more towards one desired outcome will deprive you of the other.

    Roberto... You always go on about your computer science background, so quite frankly... you should know better. When you construct anything for an "external" user, be that a language, an sdk/api, a word processor, or a 3d app... you make its "interface" by obfuscating and blocking access to to the internals... you ABSTRACT the internal tech from the user to create usability. But the more heavily you do this... the "easier" you make it for the user, the more you have to blackbox away, and thus the less overall control the user has. The more you want the user to have flexibility and access to deeper levels of control, the more you have to expose, and by extension, the more technically savvy the user needs to be in order to work with all those details and stitch them together properly to arrive at their desired outcome.

    So rather than just continuing to stir the same ol pot over and over... why dont you USE your background to actually suggest some ways in which this can be done programtically? Why not start putting things together that actually show HOW you can make something that is both flexible, powerful and versatile whilst being simple for the artist to understand without having to grapple with technicalities... Actually put your money where your mouth is??

    And Jeric... you seem to speak as if talk of this nature is some kind of resistance to having it all the way you'd like it, like those of us who do know how to work with technical apps want to limit the ability of others to get on board and keep it all for ourselves... and this Im afraid is utterly untrue. The simple fact is that we understand the behind the scenes detail which go on, and why certain things need to be done a certain way to provide ANY amount of user control over a certain thing. You say how you're not so technically knowledgable... and thats FINE... no-one is judging you for that (or at least speaking for myself Im not)... But what you should do is try to realise that the simple fact evidenced here is that other folks DO know, and understand these things which you do not... and thus you should just accept and trust their experience and expertise on these matters. Would you tell your pilot how he should be flying the plane... or your doctor which drugs he should be prescribing??

    All you do otherwise is antagonise such folk and make them not want to help you.

    You either want an app that is felxible and versatile, and gives you the levels of access and freedom to create most anything you can imagine and make it "look" anyway you want... Or you want something that requires very little effort or know how and which does it all for you (which means being locked into "presets" which you have little or no control over). Please, just make your choice, go with the appropriate app, and apply yourself to using it the way it needs to be used.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RebelHill View Post
    You either want an app that is felxible and versatile, and gives you the levels of access and freedom to create most anything you can imagine and make it "look" anyway you want... Or you want something that requires very little effort or know how and which does it all for you (which means being locked into "presets" which you have little or no control over). Please, just make your choice, go with the appropriate app, and apply yourself to using it the way it needs to be used.
    With ICE compounds you'd get both. They are not antagonist realities, it just takes a lot of effort to interface both.
    The more the two co-exist, the more users that were just receivers of solutions will ascend to being also makers of solutions.

    Cheers
    Last edited by probiner; 06-23-2014 at 01:10 PM.

  12. #12
    Goes bump in the night RebelHill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by probiner View Post
    With ICE compounds you'd get both. They are not antagonist realities, it just takes a lot of effort to interface both.
    Well, no, not really. Because someone has to create those compounds/tools in the first instance, which requires the technical skill... And whilst that compound can be used by someone lacking such skills, they're forced to use the compound as it comes, as a "pre-fab". If they want or need something more specialised for a given shot or situation, then they still need the technical skill to go in and make such modifications.

    The compounding is simply the act of abstraction.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by RebelHill View Post
    Well, no, not really. Because someone has to create those compounds/tools in the first instance, which requires the technical skill... And whilst that compound can be used by someone lacking such skills, they're forced to use the compound as it comes, as a "pre-fab". If they want or need something more specialised for a given shot or situation, then they still need the technical skill to go in and make such modifications.

    The compounding is simply the act of abstraction.
    Well yeah and someone had to make the whole app in the first place too You're fleeing from your point: Which was the user should have to choose between an application that would do what they want in an easy and limited fashion or an application that would require a lot from them but they would have a lot of control. For you there's a split and in the market there's certainly those segments. My point is that you can have an app that can bridge different types of users so there's no choice to be done. That does not exclude the difference they have, just states they can all feel at home in the same app. XSI was a great middle of the road. Now you see a more clear split, as more technical people conside Houdini, others Modo, etc...

    The compounding is not a simple act of abstraction precisely because it's not a private closed act where "that node magically does that". It's actually quite concrete as you have access to all the pipeline that produces the results you were having with the exposed controls. That's not to say that every user will be able to change it, but it's much more open to change and personal curiosity and development than if it were closed building blocks of code, like it's the case most times, presets or no presets.

    Plus for people with some level of abstraction, Nodes are a much friendly way to deal with data, than lines of code. Nodes usually have a more obvious flow, while code, you need to read and get the order and operations. In nodes contexts are built in, so syntax errors are greatly reduced, etc.

    You can have both users in the same application. One trying get a compounded solution, another using it and who knows, opening the compoud, re-use it, be inspired by it, etc. They are as stuck as they want, all depends of what level they want to reach. The app itself shouldn't be the question, though it is of course if it doesn't support this bridge.

    Cheers
    Last edited by probiner; 06-23-2014 at 02:49 PM.

  14. #14
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    Agreed Autodesk could care less.

    Some suggestions..
    COMMUNICATE BETTER
    Talk honestly to the user base. The WRONG lesson was taken from the whole Core fiasco. Have a better way for users to share their ideas.
    NEW MARKETS
    Again the high end market is unreachable, so why not look into other markets.
    Virtual set production, (jebus you guys own the freaking Tricaster,
    3D Maker Market
    Indie Game Market
    And yes, Motion Graphics.(the users in this market change tools on a heart beat, just ask Quark)
    LEARNING FROM THE USER BASE.
    Dont be afraid of embedding yourself with REALLY small studios / indie users
    Last edited by robertoortiz; 06-22-2014 at 04:47 PM.
    This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government, CG Networks or CGTALK.com. The opinions expressed on this posting are on my own volition.

  15. #15
    Worms no more! Free fun! Dodgy's Avatar
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    Liquids. That would at give us feature others still don't have and that we can't emulate at all.
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