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Thread: Why C4D?!?

  1. #196
    ShortsightedSithAssassin
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    It's one of the last big puzzle pieces missing form C4D. If I could have something as fast as VPR, it would make working in the app so much nicer - although there are a few alternatives, like Magic Preview or to work using Octane.

    Using C4D as a layout app to LW's Modeler is a good combination.
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  2. #197
    Defender of Mankind Emmanuel's Avatar
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    Yes, it sure does that, but not nearly as quickly as LW, unless I am doing something wrong
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  3. #198
    The difference is VPR is not a PBR it is just using LW rendering, so it would depend on what you are throwing at it. So it is really not the same thing at all. Real time is the way to go though for veiwport preview anyway, not a render solution. That is where technology is headed, not preview renders. That is technology to actually see what you get for a render progressively, which is good, but far too slow for basic texture set ups and seeing things animated with these things applied.

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  4. #199
    Super Member jburford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesl View Post
    So I can use different software? Thanks! (rolling eyes).

    Lol, you do every day! It's called Modeler and Layout, and Hub, and Nevermotion, and Messiah Studio or Rhiggit Pro and so on and so forth. As well as Z-Brush and or 3D Coat.

  5. #200
    Super Member jburford's Avatar
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    The Price Factor

    I keep on hearing here about how expensive C4D is compared to Lightwave.

    The problem is though, more, what is Lightwave costing you, and what is more the actual comparison in regards to price for what you get, or what you need to nail into Lightwave to get it up to par or working for what you need.

    Lightwave . . C4D Broadcast . . C4D Studio
    Base Price . . .$1500 . . $1700 . . $3700
    LWCAD . . .$ 330 . . not needed . . not needed
    Cage Deformer . . .$ 200 . . not needed . . not needed
    Lattice Deformer . . .$ 80 . . not needed . . not needed
    Ineractive Boolean. . $ 60. . not needed . . not needed
    3D Camera Tracker . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . .. included
    3D Painting . . .$300-700 . . Body Paint . . Body Paint
    CA Tools . . .$ 60 -300 . . not needed . . not needed

    ( with that, your LW is hitting around $2500 or so easily)

    And even after you nail on your add-ons and workarounds, there is still things that you can not even reach. No Unified App, no tools like CV Artsmart, No Mograph, no Non-Destructive editing, No simple animating of most all modeling tools/functions, No Proper Undo, No Full modifying of the entire Interface like you want, and a whole lot more.

    Time is also money! How many times through the forum (and years) has one seen questions from users, “How can I recreate this in LW”. And then all of the nice workarounds and ways of trying to get there in manners like the 90's. And then the fun part as simple as Text or Logos. . . the customer comes, looks at it and asks you change something simple like Fonts, or Bevels, or Logos and such. Lots of fun in LW, rebuild, redo..... in C4D, for the most part, simply make change... presto, done!

    I also get a lot of files that can not even be opened in Lightwave without it hanging, taking 20 minutes or stop working. The same files loads normally in seconds or perhaps a minute in C4D. Want the tightest integration with Photoshop, After Effects, Premiere Pro, Vizrt, Unity, simple C4D.

    Other folks say how they can not live without LWCAD. The fact is that you do not neet LWCAD at all with C4D. The tools themselves handle what you need without problem, and most of the ArchViz Profiles, etc. are to grabbed for free or internal. Will show the link to Spline-Profile, but even that is not needed with the standard sweep nurbs, spline nurbs and so on. Or, lets talk about Deformations. . .. it goes on and on folks, but please tell us that in the end that Lightwave is cheaper. It is, in my eyes, simply not the case.

    http://www.josefbsharah.net/products/spline-profile/

    Just my two (Euro) Cents.
    Last edited by jburford; 11-09-2014 at 02:44 PM.

  6. #201
    The price argument only has so much weight; people tend to forget that LW users actually have the option of having their application grow with their needs rather than having to buy/upgrade everything with every upgrade. For example, I don't do a whole lot of modeling work, so LWCAD isn't something I need for the stuff clients ask me to do. Cage/lattice deformers aren't very useful to people who don't do a whole lot of animated content (there are free modeler and layout lattice plugins, by the way). C4D also does not have relative motion loading capabilities as far as i've seen, nor does it have an IKBooster equivalent for rig manipulation to my knowledge... perhaps I'm wrong about that?

    This isn't to say that the argument isn't valid... if a user did need every single 3rd party tool out there C4D has major advantages; I just don't feel that's a typical senario for most Lightwave artists. Instead of paying for stuff you might not need with $1000 small incremental yearly upgrades, Lightwave users instead get to choose what they need for their projects and in some cases end up with a product that greatly exceeds C4D's value. Again, it isn't the same for everyone and I understand the counter-arguments, I just wanted to point out that they don't apply to everyone.
    Last edited by Ryan Roye; 11-09-2014 at 04:30 PM.
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  7. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesl View Post
    I'm looking at job postings, and it seems everyone has a hard-on for Cinema 4D. In fact, it's easier to get a job if you have C4D experience than if you have Maya, Houdini, LW, or Max experience (forget about XSI). What?!? What's going on here? I remember when C4D was an also-ran to LW. And I've used it! It's not awesome. The interface is constraining, obtrusive... kind of like Caligari would look like in the 21st century. It's being used primarily for motion graphics, but what is in their secret sauce? I mean, nearly every platform connects with After Effects now. So what's the deal? Is it their marketing? Education deals? Packaging? Is there a special surprise in the box? (That last one was for the Worley crew).

    j
    Cinema4d is okay for motion graphics work..it's what it does best.

    but as an all rounder...not so sure about Cinema4d

    except for motion graphics it's an "also ran" for everything else....the new packaging tool looks nice n all but not convinced it's worth more than 3ds max or maya...yet it's the same price with higher yearly subs...
    the only HARd thing i have for it is it's a HARD SELL...not convinced!
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  8. #203
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jburford View Post
    The Price Factor
    You make a lot of assumptions here as to what users need in order to get things done in LW. Even then, with all those things you listed as "needed", how is C4Ds renderengine holding up compared to LW? Those that wants to do other things than motiongraphics are using VRay, as far as I've gathered (I know that Blizzard Cinematics team use C4D for 2.5D Mattepaintings, rendering with Vray).

    So.. the question I ask you, if you would need at least 10 renderlics for Vray, where would that end up in the total price for C4D Broadcast?
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  9. #204
    Super Member jburford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    You make a lot of assumptions here as to what users need in order to get things done in LW. Even then, with all those things you listed as "needed", how is C4Ds renderengine holding up compared to LW? Those that wants to do other things than motiongraphics are using VRay, as far as I've gathered (I know that Blizzard Cinematics team use C4D for 2.5D Mattepaintings, rendering with Vray).

    So.. the question I ask you, if you would need at least 10 renderlics for Vray, where would that end up in the total price for C4D Broadcast?

    No Cageman, I am not making a lot of assumptions here as to what users need in order to get things done in LW.

    Through the past number of years post after post of users asking for changes to Lightwave and the main tools keeping them in LW, one of the number 1 for those using Modeler is LWCAD! People stating time after time that they will no longer model in LW or use it for Archviz without it!

    Users begging through the years for active Deformers and finally praising things with the likes of http://www.3rdpowers.com/index_store.html Deformers....

    Or am I wrong here?

    Why has so many LW users left to go to Modo, C4D, Maya or otherwise? If these things are not missing in LW???


    The Renderengine(s) hold up more than well up against LW and have come a hell of a long ways ahead. Many even stating pretty on par against Vray.

    Where LW here has an advantage is Texturing at the moment and with Nodal Textures.

    If they think they need Vray that is good for them but not actually needed in many instances, not even for Archviz.... But a good point here is . . . .

    With C4D, it IS possible to add Vray directly into it and full compatibility with others Vray scenes and the Industry Standard. In LW, this option simply does not exist. And, even with Prime, one can add Vray for a total out of pocket of around $1200-$1400 with Vray included.



    PS. I have been with Newtek Products since the LW Digitizer on the Amiga and Lightwave since LW 2.0 all through the ages including LW 11.x. So, have been around all the through ages, and the split of the developers way back then regarding direction for future LW and to Unify the App ( Birth of Modo ), the post years, the CORE Years, and thereafter, and have been around the forums through the ages. So I would think that I might have some background knowledge on what are using or wishing for.
    Last edited by jburford; 11-09-2014 at 05:02 PM. Reason: added PS

  10. #205
    Super Member jburford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cresshead View Post
    Cinema4d is okay for motion graphics work..it's what it does best.

    but as an all rounder...not so sure about Cinema4d

    except for motion graphics it's an "also ran" for everything else....the new packaging tool looks nice n all but not convinced it's worth more than 3ds max or maya...yet it's the same price with higher yearly subs...
    the only HARd thing i have for it is it's a HARD SELL...not convinced!

    I am sorry, but as an all rounder comment or the "also ran" is just rubbish in my eyes and probably the majority of the rest of the world. But is ok......believe in what you believe in!

    Subs??

    No one forces anyone to have a MSA...... You do not want it, you do not buy it. It is as simple as that!

  11. #206
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jburford View Post
    No Cageman, I am not making a lot of assumptions here as to what users need in order to get things done in LW.
    Yes you are. Because you didn't list any of the third party tools I use. So, you are not presenting any true value of what LW-users need in terms of "getting things done".
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  12. #207
    Super Member jburford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    Yes you are. Because you didn't list any of the third party tools I use. So, you are not presenting any true value of what LW-users need in terms of "getting things done".

    I apploud you!

    Then please, show me not your third party tools you use, please show me what other LW Users are using and needing in order to "get things done" if you want to put up with your own medicine.

    Because, if your analogy applies the other way around, then if you can not show what I use or need, then, you also can not say that you know what other LW Users need. So, how then can you state the same against me?? Getting a little confused here.


    Sorry Cageman, but you can not have it both ways!! :-)
    Last edited by jburford; 11-09-2014 at 05:32 PM.

  13. #208
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    What you did, with your post was to generalize about what tools LW-users need in order to make it function, and made a point that, in fact it LW is more expensive than C4D.

    These are the two commercial plugins I use in LW:

    Janus
    exrTrader

    The rest of the third party tools I use are free.
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  14. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by jburford View Post
    Then please, show me not your third party tools you use...
    How about tools native in LW that aren't native in C4D, like being able to rig things with game controllers?



    Another quick controller test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omfU9KG2-lM

    There's quite a bit that you pay extra for to have access to in C4D. Even so, if the price fits the needs of production, there's little reason to fret over things regardless of the application we're talking about. Just buy the tools you need that get the job done. Simple as that.
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  15. #210
    Super Member jburford's Avatar
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    Sure Chazriker,

    The Door Swings both ways. But even so, there are some Basic things that one would have expected a decade ago, let alone in this day and age, and that is a Proper Undo System....

    For Game Controllers, since I am only needing to use 1 Controller at a time, I use Control4D, which for 1 Controller usage is Free. If I would need more bells and whistles, then I can do so.

    http://www.kvbarnum.com/control4d/


    Quite an extra Pay to do so in C4D? The full price of Control4D for more support is $60, but perhaps that is too much extra for some.


    Want to run a list by list of what is missing or not from one or the other, as well as some simple basic thoughts or workflows? We can surely get the both communities involved to make a pretty good actual comparison, but not certain if Newtek would really like that to stand or be presented here.


    LW has something great in VPR, and it's Texturing side of the house, will say that definatly, and more than that.... LW was my main and only love that I had for Decades...... was also why I ever got into 3D way back when.....

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