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Thread: Lightwave sucks when you need to move objects at odd angles.

  1. #91
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    my 2c observations:

    1. lightwave is in the 90's with regard to this stuff, the cognitive dissonance displayed here is palpable
    2. notepad is not a 3d app and selling lightwave on this point to any other 3d user (while handy) is madness. it is reinforcing the idea in people minds that lw is a relic. Stop doing this.
    3. all these workarounds are ignoring the obvious. the program badly needs an update in this area
    4. these request have been made before, for years
    5. your only hope is to get a plugin developer to make this feature
    6. feature requests are great to feel engaged and hope that the workflow issue will be resolved, so all users and the dev team may reap the rewards of your pain but 99.5% never get implemented
    7. comparing to another app is pointless as, I think, devs go into a fit or trance or something and will not look at other well implemented solutions
    8. ALL other 3d applications that I can think off can do what you want. Layout is an oxymoron in this regard as it is awful at that.
    9. all that's left is to make dumb lists like this and hope someone gets motivated and decides to rectify layouts UX design flaws
    10. honestly, you are better off using modo, max, maya, blender... ANYTHING to do your layout for this type of issue and if you must render in lightwave, export back as FBX.
    11. This is a legitimate concern, layout really needs to be better at this stuff now as this is a major stumbling block. I hope devs give serious consideration to this issue.
    Last edited by gar26lw; 07-11-2019 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #92
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    ...4. these request have been made before, for years
    5. your only hope is to get a plugin developer to make this feature
    6. feature requests are great to feel engaged and hope that the workflow issue will be resolved, so all users and the dev team may reap the rewards of your pain but 99.5% never get implemented...
    Those are some fatalist ideas about bug and feature requests. This state of mind can prevent people from submitting reports.

    Sure, requests may have been made for years but they may have been in scattered forum posts or sparsely reported as bug/feature requests. Don't count on anybody else to make bug reports and feature requests for you. Everyone affected by a problem should submit requests. NewTek needs to know where there's a problem. The more that report, the more likely it will be addressed.

    The workarounds and solutions shared in this forum are appreciated but don't forget to also submit bug reports and feature requests.
    LW7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  3. #93
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    This is not a serious issue in lightwave. I strongly disagree that it is a legitimate concern. Freeze a rotated object in Maya (the equivalent of rotating it off axis in modeler, and a mistake in most cases) and you are going to have the same issues with your rotation axes not being aligned to your geometry, this is true with any software. Lightwave is alone in that because it is a split app you can't model objects in their rotated/translated positions (which sucks admittedly), and it is limited in that you can't change the rotation order, just keep these two things in mind and you can avoid any rotation problems. wobbly rotations are a standard Euler rotation issue and lightwave has ample solutions available to tackle them that aren't workarounds. If you have wonky rotations on an object, fix the geometry in modeler, parent it to a null with the correct orientation, or use bones. You can also apply quaternion booster to an object which will let you rotate it using local coordinates without having to worry about gimbal lock pretty much like in blender does if you set the rotation to quaternion. although If you really want gimbal free rotation it is probably better to use a target and pole instead because the curves in the graph editor will be intelligible to normal humans.

    It is true that the documentation for this stuff has been lacking, and it is way too easy to do the wrong thing in Layout because the software doesn't stop you (Want 13 different goals on an IK chain and set only X-Scale to be managed by IK? layout won't stop you, but you probably won't like the results), but with a basic understanding of how layout works you can avoid pretty much any rotation issue.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    ...with a basic understanding of how layout works you can avoid pretty much any rotation issue.
    [Mic Drop]

  5. #95
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    whats needed is a lwcad for layout. certainly needs good gizmos with incremental sbapping but as orig poster says, please do take a look at modo. i like max and maya for this stuff too. lightwave would be so much better and easier to use with this stuff. revenue..

  6. #96
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    bah! you can make your own snapping with nodal motion and some simple math nodes! ...sorry, I couldn't help myself.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    This is not a serious issue in lightwave. I strongly disagree that it is a legitimate concern. Freeze a rotated object in Maya (the equivalent of rotating it off axis in modeler, and a mistake in most cases) and you are going to have the same issues with your rotation axes not being aligned to your geometry, this is true with any software. Lightwave is alone in that because it is a split app you can't model objects in their rotated/translated positions (which sucks admittedly), and it is limited in that you can't change the rotation order, just keep these two things in mind and you can avoid any rotation problems. wobbly rotations are a standard Euler rotation issue and lightwave has ample solutions available to tackle them that aren't workarounds. If you have wonky rotations on an object, fix the geometry in modeler, parent it to a null with the correct orientation, or use bones. You can also apply quaternion booster to an object which will let you rotate it using local coordinates without having to worry about gimbal lock pretty much like in blender does if you set the rotation to quaternion. although If you really want gimbal free rotation it is probably better to use a target and pole instead because the curves in the graph editor will be intelligible to normal humans.

    It is true that the documentation for this stuff has been lacking, and it is way too easy to do the wrong thing in Layout because the software doesn't stop you (Want 13 different goals on an IK chain and set only X-Scale to be managed by IK? layout won't stop you, but you probably won't like the results), but with a basic understanding of how layout works you can avoid pretty much any rotation issue.
    Every other app allows you to rotate from whatever point you like, including moving and aligning your object center/pivot to exactly where you need it, or aligning to a vertex, edge or poly component(and yes, even after freezing a rotated object in Maya). Its simple and efficient. Layout being separated from modeling actions doesn't exactly help in this situation. And likely a situation that will never be remedied in LW.

  8. #98
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    I agree that the layout modeler split doesn’t help the situation when it comes to positioning items relative one another layout, that sort of thing is far better in a unified app. Layout is more like a game editor in that respect. but the features you are you are describing in other apps (action centers for lack of a better word) are mostly methods of positioning objects relative others or setting new pivot points/origos. None of those will help you with gimbal lock or wonky rotations. They will let you easily build a robot or complex machine as an object hierarchy whereas in lightwave you would probably want to use bones and a single mesh. And there are definitely situations where an object heirarchy is what you need in which case lightwave is the wrong tool. But as I stated before the limitations and rules that govern lightwave and rotation are finite and clear, and if you are aware of them you can avoid problems with rotation

  9. #99
    Super Member tburbage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebasvideo View Post
    I know it's not a good idea to expect one program to work as another program does, but what I expect is Lightwave and any other program to work in a way that makes sense, which Lightwave doesn't in many cases.

    For example, people in this thread suggested to have everything at straight angles in Modeler and then do all the rotation and placement in Layout. OK, so I followed that advice. What I'm getting now is nowhere better than last night. Things go fine as long as I have to rotate an object in just one axis. Now, I got an object that has to be rotated 30° bank and -45° pitch. Seems easy, and it would take nothing in Modo to make this happen. Heck, even in After Effects it would take nothing. But in Lightwave it's a pain. I set the coordinates to local, rotate bank 30° and then pitch -45°. The object is at an angle that has nothing to do with the angle you were looking for. But this wouldn't be a problem because using the rotation handles in the viewport I can still rotate the object in place, while using local coordinates. And I end up with these numbers:

    H: -26.57°
    P: -37.76°
    B: 39.23°

    It wouldn't be a big deal if I could animate pitch by going to let's say, frame 60 and moving the pitch handle to where I want it to be, let's say 90°, obviously not world, but in reference to just the object. So if I do that, at frame 60 I end up with these values:

    H: -153.36°
    P: -37.84°
    B: 140.72°

    Which would be perfectly fine with me, but when I scroll the timeline the object doesn't rotate pitch, it rotates in like all directions, because it doesn't matter if you moved it in local coordinates with the handles, Lightwave only cares about the world coordinates.

    These are the kinds of things were Lightwave just has my brain fuming for being so bad at something that should be so easy, it's not a matter of expecting it to work like Modo, I expect it to work in a way that makes sense and it doesn't.
    No, internally, Layout always works in Parent coordinate space. And what Lewis suggested, just modeling all the sub-objects where they should naturally be, but then positioning the pivot where it ought to be, is how I've always done it. Then, as ernchan suggested, it often makes sense to insert a Null between child and parent to set the rig up the way you need it to work rotationally.

    Maybe rebelhill will stop in and explain it better.

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    whats needed is a lwcad for layout.
    10 points  
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