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Thread: Creating a corrective morph using Chronosculpt

  1. #16
    "communicating with text is sometimes difficult to express things. It seems the more I try to get to the point more quickly the more rude I sound lol. Yes, I am talking about improving deformations after the bone deforms. I'll try to create some solid examples this weekend. Wasn't trying to down any ideas here. Thanks as always. "

    You dont sound rude in the slightest. And if you can apply these deformations after bones, it will look exactly as you hope - That is until the character turns around (rotating) from the pose the morph was made in. My Examples in ICE demonstrated that, in order to keep the morph relative to the limb in which its applied. It aslo has to rotate.
    If however, you are just doing a quick deformation fix for a few frames here and there , and are not concerned about the morph persisting as part of the rigs deformation-correction design. Then maybe you will get away without rotating them.
    This is what Chronosculpt does. It wont rotate the vectors either, so for example, if you sculpted a pufferfish expanding, and the fish turned around 180 degrees, the fish would implode, as the vectors would not rotate with the fish, instead , The vectors stay relative to the world, so what was pointing outward from the fish would now be pointing toward the fish.
    However, if the fish is just swimming along in one direction, you will get away with it.
    Last edited by pooby; 11-06-2013 at 04:34 AM.
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  2. #17
    Melancholy&MysteryStreet hdace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Guys, why would Lino state that CS cannot be used to make corrective morphs*, if it could (which is what you're implying)?

    *: at this time/with this version
    Because Lino's wrong.
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  3. #18
    how would you do it then?
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  4. #19
    Melancholy&MysteryStreet hdace's Avatar
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    Pooby, what you're saying flies in the face of my experience. You said, "The vectors stay relative to the world, so what was pointing outward from the fish would now be pointing toward the fish." This just never happens to me. It's kind of like saying that a character who turns his head 90º will get his morphed smile turned into a grimace. I just don't get what you're on about. I've learned a lot from you over the years, so this is embarrassing for me. I remember when I read your posts many years ago and learned all about blending FK/IK, so disagreeing with you is not fun for me.

    Okay, this is what I do:

    I've got a pose in Layout with a bone deformation I don't like. Typically an elbow bend.

    1 Save it as an endomorph called "ElbowFrame341". Save the object. Go into Modeler.
    2 Turn the new morph on.
    3 Copy it. Call the new one "ElbowFix".
    4 Sculpt the correction.
    5 Apply Morph -100% "ElbowFrame341". I now have a T-Pose with a very funny looking elbow. Now, here's where the problem lies that I think Jason's found an answer for, which is that subtracting the original morph has rotated the correction and this is unwanted. I have found that by splitting the morph into two morphs, UpperElbow and LowerElbow, and by applying Rotate Morph according to the measured rotation that has just occurred to the two arm parts (upper and lower), that I often (not always) get what I want. If I don't, I play with it a bit till it comes out right.
    6 Go back into Layout and apply the morphs to the pose and see how they look. Quite frequently they turn out perfectly. As I said, if it doesn't look right, I ping pong till it's cool.
    7 Here I usually unify the two morphs.
    8 Use JointMorphPlus to apply the morph whenever the lower arm rotates towards the upper arm.

    The morph does not have any trouble when the character turns. If he does a 180, the elbow still deforms the way I sculpted it. I've done this scores of times.

    So I'm looking forward to trying Jason's workflow because it looks like it could beat the problem with stage 5.

    I said previously that we've been talking at cross-purposes and no one responded. It appears to me that the suggestion that corrective morphs can't be done in LightWave have to do with the trial and error, hit and miss nature of this process. You're right. This is more like a workaround than a proper workflow. But Jason's idea is still clever and you should try it instead of saying it's impossible. I intend to. Unfortunately I don't have a gap for about two weeks. I've purchased ChronoSculpt and played with it a little but I'll report back when I've tried it.
    Last edited by hdace; 11-06-2013 at 07:04 AM.
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  5. #20
    Jason said "Yes, I am talking about improving deformations after the bone deforms." whereas you are talking about regular morphing which occurs before bones. By applying the morph before bones, such as Morphmixer does, you wont get any collapsing issues, of course. The vectors are rotated after the deformation has occurred.
    However there is no way in LW of sculpting a morph accurately after the deformation has occurred but making it so it will work before bones and produce the same result, without manual trial and error.
    What you are describing above sounds like a manual version of what I said in my first post about doing an inverse bone calculation.
    This is what Gino is referring to and he is correct. I firmly believe that Chronosculpt wont help in that regard as it does not deal with bone information.
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  6. #21
    Melancholy&MysteryStreet hdace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Guys, why would Lino state that CS cannot be used to make corrective morphs*, if it could (which is what you're implying)?

    *: at this time/with this version
    I would also like to point out that he did not say that CS cannot be used to make corrective morphs. This is what he said, "Creating precise corrective morphs in LightWave at the moment is not possible. For now." He said LightWave. So what I said, that he's wrong, was wrong. Sorry Lino! It is true that precision is not what I'm managing to do. However, I do still disagree with the gist of jwiede's question.
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  7. #22
    Melancholy&MysteryStreet hdace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pooby View Post
    Jason said "Yes, I am talking about improving deformations after the bone deforms." whereas you are talking about regular morphing which occurs before bones. By applying the morph before bones, such as Morphmixer does, you wont get any collapsing issues, of course. The vectors are rotated after the deformation has occurred.
    However there is no way in LW of sculpting a morph accurately after the deformation has occurred but making it so it will work before bones and produce the same result, without manual trial and error.
    What you are describing above sounds like a manual version of what I said in my first post about doing an inverse bone calculation.
    This is what Gino is referring to and he is correct. I firmly believe that Chronosculpt wont help in that regard as it does not deal with bone information.
    I'm not talking about regular morphing occurring before bones. I don't understand why you guys keep saying that. I realize there's an "under the hood" thing going on here that I obviously just don't understand. But when I test the morph corrections I'm testing them on an arm that has already rotated, not on a T-Pose. Doesn't that mean I'm improving a deformation after the bone deforms? How is what I'm doing different from what Jason is talking about? Maybe I'm just too dense to get it!
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  8. #23
    In any 3d package, the default behaviour is for morphing to occur before bones in the operator stack. It is less clear with Lightwave, because there is no real stack transparent to the user. Lw just dictates that this is how it works 'under the hood'.
    It is this order that makes it so difficult to make corrective morphs, as if you want to sculpt them in pose, you are making a morph that works after bones. To convert it to one that works before bones, there has to be calculations applied that take into consideration, the bones influence.
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  9. #24
    Couldn't Morphs in the Node Editor (set to Before Local Displacement) do the trick?
    Shape Manager animation in SI is stuck under the animation (I know you have a vid of how using ICE to put them after). And Subdivision through Geometry Approximation is not stack controllable, other wise one would probably use ICE for fine displacement no?

    Cheers
    Last edited by probiner; 11-06-2013 at 07:59 AM.

  10. #25
    Morphs in the Node editor after bones could work if you are able to rotate them. If so, it would be very exciting news as morphs after bones produce far better results. I dont have LW installed anymore so I cant check it out.

    In SI, Geometry Approximation is for viewing Subdivision surfaces in the viewport and for rendering. It is not directly about the actual geometry in the scene. If you want to Subdivide in SI, it is stack controllable if you so wish, but you'd have to keep it in the modelling section of the tree Or do it with ICE or you could make a subdivision object and keep it running live. But this is a bit of a tangent to the morphing issue.
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  11. #26
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    anyone new to corrective morphs can get a pretty good idea of what it's about by watching this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvNdYseSNFs

    There are six other videos on this subject by the same guy.
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  12. #27
    dynamics...so much fun ;) prospector's Avatar
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    OK, this is confusing...
    I have a foot that needs morphs when bent in Layout.
    Chronosculpt doesn't see a LW scene to load.
    I can load object but that does bupkus as I need to see bones bent to make a morph.
    I see no bones in Chrono to bend there and do a morph.
    Does this work with LW Layout animation?

    Tried to save transformed object from Layout (with bent bones) and load in Chrono.
    That comes in and I sculpted a smooth bend and saved as endomorph.

    Loaded MDD file and now foot no longer follows bones, see no morph in MM.

    Are there any vid tuts for doing this, or is what I am trying not possable?
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  13. #28
    Melancholy&MysteryStreet hdace's Avatar
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    I don't understand why you're loading an mdd in layout. You should be applying your new morph when the foot bones move.
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  14. #29
    dynamics...so much fun ;) prospector's Avatar
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    Well, so far I have discovered that a morph won't just come back into LW.
    I seem to have to save a new LWO to get the morph on it. Then replace obj in layout so the foot then has a morph, tho it's not looking like the one in Chrono too much.
    Now finding that in order to make morphs for the toes, I have to make the foot bend morph, save that LWO out and replace in Layout, then move the pinkytoe bones so I can morph in Chrono and save THAT LWO out and replace in Layout, then do the same for the Ringtoe bones and morph in Chrono and save THAT LWO out and replace in Layout....and so on and so on for all 5 toes.

    Unless I am doing something way different than Chrono was ment to be used.
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  15. #30
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Guys, why would Lino state that CS cannot be used to make corrective morphs*, if it could (which is what you're implying)?

    *: at this time/with this version
    He didn't write CS in his post.... he wrote LightWave. Maybe he meant CS though, but I can only read what he wrote, not what he might have been thinking about.

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