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Thread: Help! My normals won't render

  1. #1
    Newbie Member tvtom's Avatar
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    Help! My normals won't render

    It's been awhile since I've used Lightwave and I'm getting the craziest thing right now.. I've placed normals on my surface with the Normals node, I see it perfectly in the VPR but when I render... no normals.

    What am I doing wrong?

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    Newbie Member tvtom's Avatar
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    Here's a screen grab of what I'm talking about. The larger guy on the right is the VPR and the smaller insert is the actual render. Why would the render not be using the normal map I put in there?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvtom View Post
    Here's a screen grab of what I'm talking about. The larger guy on the right is the VPR and the smaller insert is the actual render. Why would the render not be using the normal map I put in there?
    Start by making a very simple normal map in an entirely new scene and see if that renders on a box or something, not the same object.

    If that works, then its your scene I would try setting it up again might be a bug.

    If the box doesnt show NM then you have ticked some setting that messes up the calculations.

    I think D:
    Jesus Christ died for you =)

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    Newbie Member tvtom's Avatar
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    I found it! It's some sort of bug. The NormalMap nodes's UV properties does not work. The workaround is to plug the NormalMap node into a regular image map node (into bump) then crank the bump to like 1000% then run that back into the normal input... here's an image (worth 1000 words).

    It seems that anything using UVs does not except normal map from the node because the node's UV parameters are screwed up. Strange but I fixed it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvtom View Post
    I found it! It's some sort of bug. The NormalMap nodes's UV properties does not work. The workaround is to plug the NormalMap node into a regular image map node (into bump) then crank the bump to like 1000% then run that back into the normal input... here's an image (worth 1000 words).

    It seems that anything using UVs does not except normal map from the node because the node's UV parameters are screwed up. Strange but I fixed it.
    creative =) goodjob
    Jesus Christ died for you =)

  6. #6
    Newbie Member tvtom's Avatar
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    This method does create issues.. I get a lot of crawling in the normals. Does anyone know of a better technique? It's hard to believe that this has been broken through several versions of Lightwave (I've tried 9.6 and 11).

    The UV's are obviously working because we can see the normal displayed correctly in the VPR.. it's the renderer that can't seem to understand the UV from the normalmap node.

    How do I submit a bug to Newtek?

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    That doesn't make sense..
    Normals should be normalized. Which means vector length should be equal to 1.0.
    And in mine LW normal is normalized. Because when I am plugging Constant > Vector > 0.1,0.1,0.1 it has exactly the same effect as plugging 1,1,1

    Try getting normal from NormalMap then plug to Math > Vector > Normalize then output to Normal in Surface node.

    Your setup is like using Math > Vector > Scale. Try it instead to confirm whether effect looks the same. 1000% is 10.0 scale.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvtom View Post
    How do I submit a bug to Newtek?
    https://fogbugz.newtek.com/

    But better attach here whole scene, so we can confirm..

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    Newbie Member tvtom's Avatar
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    You don't need my scene.. I tested it with a simple plane... normals work fine until you turn on UVs. Then nothing. Pipe it like I'm showing there and then you'll see the normal influence but it doesn't work well because it crawls from frame to frame (animation).

    Try it for me.. maybe I'm completely insane but I've done it several times. Look at the VPR for reference.

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    When you're using bump mapping, renderer does operation:

    normal_vector -= bump_vector;
    normalize( normal_vector );

    I am not too sure whether there is not done yet another normalization prior this.

    But if you have both normal used and bump used, and there is no normalization prior this, result will be different than when both are used and there is such normalization in beginning.

    That's why you can plug any bump vector, even not normalized, so it's starting dominating over normal vector.
    (using Amplitude 1000% is multiplying vector by 10.0)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvtom View Post
    You don't need my scene.. I tested it with a simple plane... normals work fine until you turn on UVs. Then nothing. Pipe it like I'm showing there and then you'll see the normal influence but it doesn't work well because it crawls from frame to frame (animation).

    Try it for me.. maybe I'm completely insane but I've done it several times. Look at the VPR for reference.
    But our build versions of LW are different.
    You're using probably official, me build 2253
    So, attach your simple plane scene with image, and I will try to tell you whether it has been fixed or not in newer versions.

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    Newbie Member tvtom's Avatar
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    @Sensei
    I tried that and it didn't change anything (from using NormalMap straight to Normal input). Am I suppose to be able to put numbers into the Normalize node? If so, I'm not able to.

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    Normalization is doing operation:

    length = sqrt( x * x + y * y + z * z );
    x= x / length
    y= y / length
    z= z / length

    So after doing it length of vector == 1.0

    Plugging vector to image node in bump, then using Amplitude 1000% is like doing
    vector = vector * 10.0
    I guess so.

  14. #14
    Newbie Member tvtom's Avatar
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    I've attached the scene, the normal map I'm testing with and the simple plane object.

    Look at the VPR and then hit F9.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #15
    Newbie Member tvtom's Avatar
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    @Sensei
    Just so you know.. I have no idea what with the math stuff... I'm just an artist. If you have the solution, please take a screenshot of your nodes and settings and I'll figure it out.

    ...and THANK YOU!!! I really appreciate the help.

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