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Thread: Schools are not using LW.

  1. #61
    Super Member geo_n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inakito View Post
    "Speed Myth"? I think pipelines changed ON PRODUCTION recently such as Iron Sky, I do really think it is no a myth but a fact, and seriously, talking about Terranova, 24, CSI and so many other series or films where Lightwave is being used in the last 5 years are not low end industry at all. On top of that I wold say there were not for sure a legion of programmers behing every single mouse click on these productions...
    And one last quick thing about modelling in Maya... did u ever ask a Maya Modeller if he or she were modelling using single or double side polys? And in the case they are using double side polygons... can we considered them good modellers after all?
    I am afraid but I can not agree with you at all that Lightwave superfast worflow and render is a myth... sorry
    Reading the Ironsky blog at Liberty certainly gives one an impression that lightwave is fast and maya is slow. But this is coming from one who is super good in lw working with "subpar" maya artists. It would be the same with a super good maya/max artist working with "subpar" lw artist.
    Personally, I believe there are certain things one app is faster/easier in doing things. Lightwave is fast at some workflow but very very poor at others.
    Importing mocap data is super tedious in lw. Lack of procedural modelling tools. Read this comment from a veteran lw user about mass revision.
    http://faulknermano.com/blog/2011/12/19/tools/

    Lightwave on the otherhand has an advantage in asset creation having direct access to polymodelling tools without the need to go to the subobject level. This shouldn't be underestimated and saves time.
    But this will definitely change when modeller and layout are merge and will function like Core.

  2. #62
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
    Well, what is Lightwave current IDENTITY? I agree with you that the new work environment could have put LW in the spotlight, and modernize the (arguably) old-fashioned and rigid GUI.

    This was pulled off by the Blender community, and, although development of its feature set was stalled for a year of two, the dividends are showing now, with a host of new eye-catching features being integrated, including a completely new mesh engine for n-gons, and the cycles render engine (which looks a lot like VPR). It is quite startling how fast things are getting done now.

    On the other hand, I love the instancing in LW11, the hyper voxel tech (funny that got mentioned), the new fiberfx stuff, and so on. It seems focusing on one app sped up development again for Newtek.

    But still, with most of the other main players on the 3d market I know their "identity", or rather their presence of character - how they position themselves in the market. (C4d: motion graphics/graphic design; Houdini: technical 3d fx; maya: goliath/film/animation; max: goliath/games/characters/architecture;blender: david/open source/generalist; etcetera.

    With Lightwave I can't really pinpoint a defining characteristic (anymore). It's a general purpose 3d app, like the others, though if anything it used to be known (and still is up to a certain extent) for its broadcast delivery. That's kinda water under the bridge now.

    Check out http://www.newtek.com/solutions-lightwave-menu.html

    Archviz has a motorcycle. I would expect some great architectural visualization. Games has one silly looking indy game. Design a personal film short - not what I would call a design project (the motor cycle would make a better fit). The Print category showcases a project that could have been done much faster in Photoshop. Where are the infographics examples? Those would be a good showcase for print.

    Film category: no showcase at all: "hang on tight". Excuse me?

    Only the television category makes good sense to me. Even Newtek is utterly confused how to market their product: their showcase pages are fragmented, and do not create a coherent identity for Lightwave.

    If anything, Lightwave's identity could be retraced to tv show production. Perhaps that is the way to go? Introduce LW to schools as THE general purpose tool used in effects, animation and virtual shots on television, where a quick turn-around is required? I have read many stories how Lightwave out-performs other apps in this area.
    I agree.

    Thanks for the link, it shows NT is thinking about their brand and what it does for the industry but. . . I kinda cringe when they say extreme things like "Because all aspects of the program, from modeling and animation, to texturing, lighting and rendering, can be mastered by a single artist. And, you can customize LightWave to work in any production pipeline."

    There is no mastering going on in Lightwave, that is why it is faster, it is used to fill the areas that don't necessarily need mastering. Using tools that master a certain effect require more knowledge and time.

    This is why I choose to use Lightwave and other applications as specialty programs because I can then use them for their own strengths when I need them, not cram a square peg into a round hole BECAUSE it's FASTER or vice versa.

    TBH I really don't care for me personally as a freelancer what program does the most for the money, I just want speed and quality to balance themselves out and I find using different packages together help to achieve that. That is why I support NT when they add those tools that help connect the packages together. It's more expensive that way but I can't see myself living without Zbrush and 3Dcoat together, they just do thier own thing in a powerful way and I'd hate NT to think they can out perform what they do. Same with Softimage and Motion Builder. They do what they do.

    What does Lightwave do, I think it should capitalize on the strengths that are already in there otherwise they just get lost in all the mediocrity.

    On the other side of the tracks I understand that there are larger studios that want a "DO A LOT" package for a reasonable price and I can pretty much say with certainty that max, maya and xsi are hard to beat in that category. They pay for themselves when doing bigger projects. I just don't see how lightwave can compete which is why I keep stressing that LW's strengths need to step up and make itself known. Saying things like, oh it's just faster at everything or some things isn't going to convince anyone. The words modeling, animation and rendering are very generic terms too, they aren't convincing.
    Last edited by jasonwestmas; 02-01-2012 at 06:56 PM.

  3. #63
    Lightwaver SubDProxy's Avatar
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    IMHO, schools aren't using it because they cannot provide it free to their students and to bring in students it is all about what the industry is using. I know it said it somewhere in this post about using the Unity road map. It is a great idea, but with Unity 3D you don't get real-time shadows and something else. Not sure what but I think it is something else.
    What would you leave out of Lightwave 11 to fit the Unity 3D road map?

    I work in games using Lightwave. Yeah, I know holy cow games? Lightwave? Yep, we use it for game objects and cinematics. Why? Because it is the fastest and easiest for us. We have a guy that uses Maya but is learning Lightwave because he thinks it is really freaking easy to model compared to Maya. He is fast in Maya but I can't wait to see how fast he gets in Lightwave. Another thing is to know some modeling skills. An expensive program doesn't mean you know how to do anything. IMHO!

    I wish Newtek would start pushing towards the game market because it is really easy to create objects and my programmers like it a lot better. When I create an object in Modeler and bring to Layout, set up the scene and export it out; it looks great. As long as I name the layers in Modeler, the different objects come into Unity with the correct names. Using Maya we have some issues. Unless the Modeler goes in and combines all his objects into one object and renames it there will be lots of floaters in the game engine. Names like polycylinder01, polycylinder02 and so on. Well, you get the point.

    My name is Glen and I make video games for desktop and mobile applications. I'm a Lightwaver. Please Newtek, start opening up more towards the game market.

    Glen
    Last edited by SubDProxy; 02-01-2012 at 07:30 PM.

  4. #64
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    Low detail mobile assets aren't a surprising subject for Lightwave actually. I use modeler for video game stuff too but these days it's only part of 1/3 of the modeling and surfacing pipeline for unity. I'm also using Zbrush, 3Dcoat, Xnormal and sometimes xsi 6 for faster tweaking and welding. Then I have to get the normals correct in max. Granted I'm making 5-10K triangle creatures.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by SubDProxy View Post
    My name is Glen and I make video games for desktop and mobile applications. I'm a Lightwaver. Please Newtek, start opening up more towards the game market.
    Rob Powers said on 3 months back NT is coming full-force towards the game market, so let's see what they do.

    i expect UV enhancements, but more so modeling enhancements.
    (the question is if NT will do enhancements to the modeling part while at the same time making a new unified 3D app,... or will it be one or the other).

     
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  6. #66
    Lightwaver SubDProxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    Rob Powers said on 3 months back NT is coming full-force towards the game market, so let's see what they do.

    i expect UV enhancements, but more so modeling enhancements.
    (the question is if NT will do enhancements to the modeling part while at the same time making a new unified 3D app,... or will it be one or the other).

     
    I hope so! I have been lucky to work in a studio that started the team from the ground up. We have been using Lightwave to create the game assets and it is working great!

    Glen

  7. #67
    Super Member COBRASoft's Avatar
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    As far as I know, there's a school in Belgium teaching LW. I have no idea about the difficult level or the name of the school, but at least, it' still here .

  8. #68
    My high school taught 3d animation using Lightwave. It's actually how I got into 3D. Carson High school.

  9. #69
    Eat your peas. Greenlaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geo_n View Post
    Personally, I believe there are certain things one app is faster/easier in doing things. Lightwave is fast at some workflow but very very poor at others.
    I totally agree. There was a time when I felt I could do anything faster and better in Lightwave but I no longer feel this way.

    Lightwave is still my primary 3D application but when I got involved with making my own motion capture movies, I had to look elsewhere for retargeting and editing the data for LW. Working with mocap animation using only Lightwave is just way harder than it needs to be.

    Thankfully, NewTek made huge FBX I/O progress during the 10.0 and 10.1 development that allowed me to use other programs seamlessly with Lightwave. If that never happened, I probably would have given up on Lightwave. LW 10.1 went a long way in restoring my faith in NewTek. I'm starting to think the day will come again when I believe that Lightwave is all I need to do my work.

    Actually, if they would just take care of that offset weight issue with joints (weight associated with child joint) and go back to the 'industry standard' system they started with (weight associated with parent joint,) I would be ECSTATIC about having stuck with Lightwave, because this one little fix would pretty much eliminate Maya from my pipeline.

    And being able to paint weights and corrective morphs in Layout would be an awesome bonus.

    G.

  10. #70
    Eat your peas. Greenlaw's Avatar
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    I almost derailed this topic didn't I? Sorry 'bout that. I'll try to get it back on track now.

    At my workplace, we were exclusively Lightwave for over 10 years and mostly happy about it. It was a fairly recent event when we switched to Maya for character animation. We were actually content to keep using LW for CA but in recent years it became a struggle to find good Lightwave character animators here in Los Angeles.

    We still hire LW generalists for almost everything else but even that pool seems to be getting smaller. Lately it's gotten harder to find people who can light a scene well in Lightwave, and most importantly for us, quickly and efficiently.

    So, getting back to the topic, yeah, I don't think schools are teaching LW. Sadly, I think LW became a harder sell for schools because it had fallen behind in so many features. Even popular web-based training sites like Digital Tutors don't offer Lightwave training.

    That said, I think NewTek has been on the right track lately. First they need to make LW competitive again, and 10.1 was a great start. 11 seems to be continuing that momentum, and maybe by 12, LW will back in the industry spotlight. And when that happens, more talented people will want to learn it...and be hired by people like us.

    That's my wish anyway.

    G.

  11. #71
    3D Practitioner DigiLusionist's Avatar
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    I once made my living using LW, and, at times, teaching it at area colleges here in San Diego. I started using LW in v5.

    Sadly, that time has past. I can occasionally find work using Maya to do character animation, but even then, I can't find a full-time job doing that here (too many lay offs at area game dev studios).

    I am looking for a full-time position as a LW Generalist, but I rarely, if ever, see LW as the tool being used when I read the job listings.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlaw View Post
    And being able to paint weights and corrective morphs in Layout would be an awesome bonus.
    check WeightPaintTool,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuHDOn35bVY

    and Tweaking Polys in Layout,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdBQBVw4kI

     
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  13. #73
    Eat your peas. Greenlaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    check WeightPaintTool,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuHDOn35bVY

    and Tweaking Polys in Layout,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdBQBVw4kI 
    Yes, I've used Weight Paint and LayoutMeshEdit. They're good 'proof of concept' demos but a bit too simple for heavy production use. (Also, they're only available in x32 but that's beside the point.)

    If I recall correctly, WP doesn't work with LW joints, which really limits its usefulness for me. All my mocap rigs use LW joints for full Motion Builder compatibility. (Well, they're mostly compatible anyway; having to correct the weight offset issue in Maya before going to MB and requiring extra dummy joints for FBX export is getting pretty old.) And I think LayoutMeshEdit doesn't work for editing morph targets, but it's been a while since I tried it with a rigged and posed character so I might be wrong about that.

    What's interesting about these tools is that they clearly demonstrate that LW has been capable of these features for some time, just never fully developed for it. It would be awesome if somebody picked up these ideas and carried them forward as rigging tools.

    BTW, where LayoutMeshEdit has been useful to me is in setting up camera mapping and shadow catcher objects. For this, LME has saved me a hours of work on a couple of jobs.

    I haven't found a really good way to edit corrective joint morphs in LW. Lately, I've been taking advantage of the new 'auto-update' feature introduced in 10 to improve feedback. It's still awkward tweaking a morph target in Modeler and checking the results on a mesh deformed by posed joint-based rig in Layout but being able to see the tweaks by simply pressing 's' is somewhat helpful. It's okay for simple corrections but I lose patience with it for more complicated edits. Also, it takes a huge amount of desktop space since you need to see both Modeler and Layout at the same time to do this. (Forget about trying this on a laptop screen, which is where I do most of my personal LW work.)

    It's things like this that make me wonder why I'm still keeping so much of my CA work in LW. Well, I know why--it's because I like LW's simplicity. But 'simplicity' doesn't have to mean incomplete.

    Sorry, didn't mean to rant. I actually love using Lightwave but sometimes it doesn't seem to like me very much. (Also, I think Maya totally hates me.)

    G.
    Last edited by Greenlaw; 02-05-2012 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Weird grammer.

  14. #74
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    Lightwave was the first 3D app I learned at one school which apparently switched over to Maya.

    Next I learned Maya at a private school which apparently switched over to Max now.

    lots of changes.
    Existing simply to exist is no existence.
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  15. #75
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybernaut View Post
    Lightwave was the first 3D app I learned at one school which apparently switched over to Maya.

    Next I learned Maya at a private school which apparently switched over to Max now.

    lots of changes.
    Hmm, weird, most schools I've been to teach at least two animation and rendering packages.

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