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Thread: The 3D | Edge Bevel, Shift, Inset, Chamfer | Thread

  1. #1

    The 3D | Edge Bevel, Shift, Inset, Chamfer | Thread

    What's missing? What's not working? What are the conceptual solutions that LW should develop? What are the third party solutions?
    Even though Modeler is not exactly on a feature development streak, I thought there could be an outline for these modeling practices in one thread, because again, many times you see what you want to do, but seems tools don't aid, they don't output the way you want or follow the concepts you need.


    I'll start by adressing something somewhat simple, but can influence greatly further discussions: Edge Bevel.
    Beyond the buggyness I want to point out on how Edge Bevel tools in general work and how they optionally could go beyond.



    So. Normally the new edges are made by distancing them from the original edge, in this case 100mm. But the distance between the new edges (strip width) is 141mm. So you input the size of 2 equal sides of an isosceles triangle and the strip with is the different side size. This is a problem because:
    1- You don't input the strip width.
    2- Even if you try to solve it with math (100m *√2 =141mm for a 90º angle) and input it, if the angle is not constant along the edge, this fix doesn't work. \/


    In "Constant Width" examples you can see how it would be.





    It is important to have tools that don't work only in one way (Multishift is a good example). So an Edge Bevel where you could optionally change the Distance Input from Orginal Edge Distance to Strip Width would go around many situations the current bevel operations can't cope with, at all.


    Wedgebevel+ shows other mechanisms and input options that would be nice to consider, even if it does not work with edge selection or it doesn't produce a continuous Face Loop, like the Edge Bevel Tool does.




    Attached an LWO with the "Constant Width" examples. I'll use them for other subjects like Shift, Inset and Chamfer later on the thread

    Fire away your issues and solutions. It's about having options that fit problems.

    Cheers
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by probiner; 01-25-2012 at 12:24 AM.

  2. #2
    Pixel and Poly Pusher JeffrySG's Avatar
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    It might be good to post the links to those plugins/videos that did some amazing rounding / loop inserts. I think it might have been for C4D. Those would be great to get into LW one day!

  3. #3
    Will do Jeffry or if others do it's all good. You know we have been talking about these before and there are some references already.
    I haven't done it because I only focused on Edge Bevel now. So when I post about Chamfer I'll repost some of those links again.
    But you guys are free to point fingers at good solutions the way you want, of course =)

    Cheers
    Last edited by probiner; 01-25-2012 at 12:23 AM.

  4. #4

    Inflate and Offset

    Here is a video comparing some procedures to Inflate a mesh. Note especially the Multishift>Contour which allows to make an Offset of the geometry without changing it's polygon normals.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlfLwqJkE90 (it can be boring, summary below \/)

    There is though a bug with Multishift, if you make some cuts in a mesh and use Multishift>Shift>Contour the new cuts will start to slide randomly, some times to a points to reap the mesh apart to an extreme.



    Basicaly it's the only "Offset" tool in modeler and it's bugged in many situations.
    I don't know if the problem is LWO, Modeler, the Tools or all of them...


    Anyway a summary:



    Point Normal Move
    Steep corners are fades and flat areas bulged out. It results in a puffier shape
    I think it's useful for to inflate in a smoothing/rounding way.

    Smooth Scale | Move Plus (right mouse button) | Multishift (shift: Point Normals)
    Will offset the vertices along their normal with a fixed distance.
    It's useful to me for projecting operations that require a cage that will give the orientation; such as baking Texture Maps in xNormal.

    Multishift (shift: Contour)
    Will Offset the polygons along their normals with a fixed distance.
    The only way I know to keep the polygons normals intact when inflating a mesh. A nice way to thicken a geometry.




    Hopefully this helps to differentiate the tools, in what they can accomplish and also what needs to be fixed. File attached for the more curious \/

    Cheers
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by probiner; 05-20-2012 at 09:26 AM.

  5. #5
    Registered User Kuzey's Avatar
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    Just curious, but did Core have these issues?

    Maybe a constrain shape/edge/angle option to force Modeler not to deform objects when using these tools??

    Although..a fix would be better than another option

    Kuzey

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuzey View Post
    Although..a fix would be better than another option
    Exaclty, Multishift is quite nice, both Shift and Inset Contours are quite unique in LW. But they have their issues and if addressed, it would be... COOLL... to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuzey View Post
    Just curious, but did Core have these issues?
    Sorry, I was not part of CORE's country club Have no idea.

    But If you ask me "Smooth Scale" and Point Normal Move" got their names swapped :/ Smooth Scale moves vertices on their normals with the same value, while, Point Normal Move smooths out sharp corners and rounds sutff.

    Cheers

  7. #7
    Registered User Kuzey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by probiner View Post

    Sorry, I was not part of CORE's country club Have no idea.

    Cheers
    That makes two of us

    I remember one or two Core members said they replaced Modeler with Core for their modelling needs.

    That would mean that a) these tools were a straight port from LW to Core...having the same issues etc. or b) they were a compete rewrite & so fixed the underlying problems.

    If b) is true, then we might find these updated tools in LW12. Unless there's an issue getting new code into old architecture etc.

    btw..I would so love to see LW handle micro movements/extrusions etc. better. Modeler's tools can't move in increments smaller than 1mm to 3mm within the viewport.

    Anyway...keep doing what you're doing..it's fascinating stuff!



    Kuzey

  8. #8
    Registered User Kuzey's Avatar
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    The rotation system can do with a fix as well..which can't do .5 degree increments within the view ports. I would have to rotate an object close to where I want it, then undo, then open numeric panel and manually input the correct angle..say 29.5 degrees and apply again.

    Kuzey

  9. #9


    hm, not sure, works here, unless i skipped something...
    http://youtu.be/TH5Cxa8vuBQ

     
    Last edited by erikals; 05-24-2012 at 08:44 AM.
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  10. #10
    Wanted! >

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuzey View Post
    Increments
    Totally agree with you on this. LW only allows you to do only 1º or 15º angle Increments on the viewport and objects.

    Blender and Wings3D allow you to with a combination of Control, Shift and Alt keys to get many other increments options while the normal mouse control used 2 decimal places:
    - 0.1º, 1º, 5º, 10º, 360º or 0.1, 0.25, 1, 10 etc..
    - Precision Mode where your mouse input will be slowed down.
    - Same for for operations like Size, Move, Extrude, and so on!.

    So you can fine tune with less "Apply" on a numeric Input Panel and you make the Perspective View more useful again.

    If NT is serious about Modeling in LW12: Enough of Quad View and Numeric Panel for modeling. I mean, many times you need them of course, it's just, they shouldn't be the base of modeling in 2012.


    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post


    hm, not sure, works here, unless i skipped something...
    http://youtu.be/TH5Cxa8vuBQ
    you didn't watch the video right :P
    Oh so you want reproduction steps hun?

    - Make a 8 by 8 Torus.
    - Twist it on the Z axis something like 15º just to make a little bit non-planar, but not much.
    - Make the 4 Cuts, by selecting the Loops and using the Connect command (L).
    - Size everything up 200% (sizing apparently makes the effect stronger)
    - Bevel the opening polygon in. Invert Selection and Multishift (shift:Countour)
    - Rage

    Even if you don't apparently see it, if you use negative values, you will see the new cuts making a Zig-Zag shape. That's vertices sliding, but only mildly. When they are extremely displaced it's them sliding a whole lot.

    I can make the same thing in Wings3D with the "Extrude" operation, that it will Offset polygons on their normals without any problem.

    In yellow, the new cuts. In red the chosen unselected polygon.

    Anyway I attached a LWO like the image:

    Layer 1 - objects --- Layer 2 - edited --- Layer 3 - Multishift --- Layer 4 - Wings3D

    This completly breaks the tool and I don't see it how to regenerate (changed point order, fixed normals, tripled it and put it back to quads).

    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    Wanted! >

    I'll carry on with that one when I talk about Solid Chamfering Edges. Because the principle about the distancing from the original edges is the same in Solid Chamfer and Edge Bevel.

    Cheers

    EDIT: updated the example. Apparently when I reopened the LWO the cube sample behaved fine.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by probiner; 05-24-2012 at 04:28 PM.

  12. #12
     
    ah,... yeah, was a bit fast there... raging bug indeed...!
    (and no way to fix it...!)

    edit > just Fogbugzed it.
     
    Last edited by erikals; 05-24-2012 at 04:15 PM.
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  13. #13
    Super Member Snosrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuzey View Post
    Just curious, but did Core have these issues?
    No. It had other issues, but I thought it was progressing well in this area and many others. Check it out herehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsklJ...=ULd2uae2DMaQs Notice the same command bevels edges, points and polys. Also notice that the bevel command truly bevels and the extrude command extends more like the bevel command in Modeler. NT knows what is needed to make our beveling more enjoyable.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
     
    edit > just Fogbugzed it.
     



    Quote Originally Posted by Snosrap View Post
    NT knows what is needed to make our beveling more enjoyable.
    Ah see... they went to the moon already, just need to go back

  15. #15
    Axes grinder- Dongle #99
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    I'd think one control we might find useful in Edge Bevel is what I'm thinking of as "Bias".

    Basically, if the default Edge Bevel were described as a triangle, "Bias" would shift the tip of the triangle one way or the other. So, an equilateral triangle would be the default, and a right triangle would be one extreme or the other.
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