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Thread: Why there is this incredible speed difference?

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    Registered User AmigaNewTek's Avatar
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    Why there is this incredible speed difference?


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    Senior Constrictor Netvudu's Avatar
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    Softimage is good at handling many polys, but the problem with Lightwave mainly comes from the fact that you are working with Modeler.
    Layout accepts many more polys than Modeler. I┤ve read some time ago that one of the problems with Modeler is that it draws once per view, so it is way slower. I don┤t know if this is still true currently but I suspect it is.
    3d animation? Hah! Did you take a look through your window?there┤s plenty of it...and pre-rendered!!

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    But you're just spinning viewport in this video.
    So, everything goes from VBO buffers.
    When geometry is modified, it needs to be 1) put to undo buffer 2) transfered to VBO- optimal transfered just changed part.

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    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    It has to do with Modeler not using Vertex Object Buffers in OpenGL, I think. Because Blender has an option to turn on or off VBOs, I repeated the same experiment, and low and behold: with VBOs turned off I get slow performance (still twice as fast as Modeler). With VOBs turned on, there is just no comparison: with eight copies I still get much better performance than one copy without VBOs.

    Read this for more info: http://www.spec.org/gwpg/gpc.static/vbo_whitepaper.html

    Of course, without more info about the hardware used, the resolution of the screen, and so on, it is hard to make good comparisons.

    But modeler's opengl is, as we all have realized a long time ago, very slow. Core had great opengl performance, I read - so that performance will hopefully be part of the next version.

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    In Modeler there is VBO on/off toggle in Display Options > GL tab.

    But OpenGL can be multi-threaded or not multi-threaded. I am not sure whether LightWave uses multi-threading for transfering data to gfx card. I think so it's not, because on dual-core cpu in Task Manager while spinning viewport I see CPU usage 50%.

    Using wired modes make things worser.

  6. #6
    Yeah, spinning doesn't impress me a whole lot. And it's not the big problem with LightWave. Try manipulating some of those components. You can spin a lot of polys in LightWave. But when you go to move points or polygons, it slows to a dead crawl.

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    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    Thanks, Sensei - I wasn't aware of that vbo option - though by default it is turned on, and still the view is quite slow.

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    Open Task Manager and start spinning viewport in other 3d apps. Do you see all cores are 100% while doing so? In LW it's just one core 100% and the rest is pretty much idle. And don't forget to check the same viewport settings, LW viewport in Textured mode and equivalent mode in other app.

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    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Just a note here...

    LWs OpenGL speed is dependent on Smoothing being ticked ON. If you have it off, you will notice a slower performance even with as much as 500k polygons. Make sure you set Smoothing ON in surface editor for all your surfaces. I had a scene here with 48million polygons and with Smoothing ON, it was still way faster than a 1 million poly object with Smoothing OFF.

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  10. #10
    to be fair modeller code is old...try that with Core and you'll see much better performance.
    stee+cat
    real name: steve gilbert
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    Q - How many polys?
    A - All of them!

  11. #11
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    Just a note here...

    LWs OpenGL speed is dependent on Smoothing being ticked ON. If you have it off, you will notice a slower performance even with as much as 500k polygons. Make sure you set Smoothing ON in surface editor for all your surfaces. I had a scene here with 48million polygons and with Smoothing ON, it was still way faster than a 1 million poly object with Smoothing OFF.

    I would be interested to know which video card/system specs you have - because in my case 8 trees (generated in Cinema4d 8 with xfrog 4) with each tree at 440.000 vertices/260.000 polys, even a single tree lags in Modeler, whether I turn on smoothing or not. In Blender I can duplicate the tree and create a small grove of them without a real slowdown (10 trees). And even while orbiting/panning/zooming at 1920*1200 the view, less than 9% CPU time is used. Even at 30 trees Blender's viewport is still not lagging, and relatively smooth. Selecting vertices and polys is still instant.

    Selecting even a couple of vertices in Modeler becomes a pain, and is very slow for this one tree. No such problems in either Blender (working with the entire grove of trees), or even the aging Cinema4d v8 (with either one tree or 15 trees or more).

    This is one of the main reasons why I left Modeler as a modeling tool (well, for the most part- I do still use LWcad sometimes). It is hard to justify NOT moving to another modeling app if the viewport's just so dead slow.

    My system specs: [email protected], 12gb ram, ati 5870 1gb.

  12. #12
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    Oops, did not see your signature there - it seems we have just about identical specs, but for the video card. Yours is an old nvidia card. Maybe Modeler's opengl works better in geforce cards? Then again, before this card I had a 285gtx - and the performance issues were the same.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    In Modeler there is VBO on/off toggle in Display Options > GL tab.

    But OpenGL can be multi-threaded or not multi-threaded. I am not sure whether LightWave uses multi-threading for transfering data to gfx card. I think so it's not, because on dual-core cpu in Task Manager while spinning viewport I see CPU usage 50%.
    Isn't the problem rather that it's constantly pushing a bunch of stuff over the bus to begin with, instead of sticking the primitives in an index buffer (in gfx mem) and doing one draw call?

    Not that I have any idea what Softimage and Blender do, but in the posted videos there was nothing that couldn't be done that way, since everything hade the same surface/material.

    (Or two draw calls for shaded+wireframe modes)

  14. #14
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
    Oops, did not see your signature there - it seems we have just about identical specs, but for the video card. Yours is an old nvidia card. Maybe Modeler's opengl works better in geforce cards? Then again, before this card I had a 285gtx - and the performance issues were the same.
    Sorry... I should have been clear that the tests I did was in Layout... that said, Modeler should be able to handle similar data in pretty much the same speed, since, when it comes to tumbling/orbiting something, it doesn't need to send data to the GFX card all the time, unlike when you select something or actually deform something. But, to my knowledge, Modeler and Layout should have the same OpenGL optimizations?

    In any case...

    Moving an object in Modeler is not the same thing as moving an object in Layout though. That said, deforming something in Layout is similar to moving an object in Modeler. When you do this stuff, LW will crawl, even on a low number of polygons.
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  15. #15
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
    I would be interested to know which video card/system specs you have - because in my case 8 trees (generated in Cinema4d 8 with xfrog 4) with each tree at 440.000 vertices/260.000 polys, even a single tree lags in Modeler, whether I turn on smoothing or not.
    Just to be clear here... are you talking strictly orbiting the object as in not trying to deform it in any way (moving verts or whatever)? (we should have established, at this point, that LWs deformations/editing speed is very, very slow).

    Also, does this tree consist of several layers that you view at the same time, or is it a single layer object?

    If orbiting this object and if it is a single layer object, and Modeler is as slow as you describe, there is certanly something fishy going on.

    So...continue on the speed of orbiting objects in Modeler...

    Which version of LW are you using? I am testing LW10.1 Modeler now, and I have 3 layers visible at the same time, with the combined number of polygons reaching 2.654.208, and in Smooth Shade view, it very fast to tumble around the objects. I do sense a slight slowdown compared to not having any objects at all, but it is a tiny slowdown for sure.

    Worth mentioning is that Modeler seems to be as fast with Smoothing turned on in Surface Editor as without smoothing enabled. So, Smoothing seems to only help Layout. And that it does with an order of magnitude.
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