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Thread: Is Lightwave only for previz

  1. #46
    tezzy You are missing the connection between rigging and the lack of good lw animation.

    The fact that lightwave's rigging is poor IS a strong reason why there isn't much good animation Done in lw.
    Mainly because professional animators in general animate in packages where their animation is on good rigs with good deformation.
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  2. #47

  3. #48
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    Yeah he did actually lol.

    "Maestro balances powerful control of the character with an easy to use interface. It also has the best 'auto' default rig I've seen in Lightwave - Each body section and the control of it, has been well thought out with the animator in mind."

    -Paul Smith (Pooby)"

    If you want to stay in lightwave it probably is the way to go for big scenes.
    All that is powerful or long standing is first conceived in the imagination; supported by the hope of possibility and then made manifest in our commitment of our current physical reality.

  4. #49
    Maestro is a good solution within lw's rather limited world.

    Maestro can't add extra rigging capabilities to lw however. It can just set things up with what is there.
    There are fundimental things missing in lw that are needed for high end rigging.
    No plugin could fix that as one of the underlying problems is the fact that plugins can't communicate properly in lw.
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  5. #50
    Registered User TeZzy's Avatar
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    Rigging limitations in lightwave definitely mean less good animation done with it. Completely agree with that.

    This is probably more a problem with lightwave as a whole more than rigging in lightwave.....but just loading the same rig in the scene makes me cross my fingers all the time. Managing multiple rigs in a scene is painful. I know because I had rigged a feather(yes, a very simple feather but simple became complicated very quickly).....I then had to animate literally over one hundred feathers in the same scene, no instancing as they had to be unique. Importing that many version of the same rig got really messy.
    “Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it” - Michelangelo

  6. #51
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonwestmas View Post
    ...I wouldn't go as far to say that what you build in it is a house of cards. That's kind of a preposterous statement.
    Yet everyone I work with agrees with my assessment. Am just conveying how it is. If it sounds farfetched perhaps you are not used to dealing with complex scenes in LW. Just one day I would love to have an NT dev person sitting right next to me, any normal LW day of the week.

    That brief zoom-in, closeup on the Old Dogs penguins was the hardest shot I ever had to deal with in LW due to how much time went into getting such a brief, straightforward shot to work.

    The Tree Burst scene was another example. I setup the overall scene in just one day... but the devil is in the details. SubD objects could not be baked as the points would just jumble after scene reload. FiberFX for grass would not cover the chunks properly. Replace object broke on the layered tree (as happens a lot for some reason), and I had to keep replacing each layer (14) individually, dozens of times as the tree was updated. 3 or more groups get glitchy in complex scenes and some mysteriously wont work at all. Groups sometimes wont update after a change in the scene unless you re-enable all the effectors and collisions again. Instead I had to keep some winds, collisions and emitters disabled while running part of a sim, then switch them on and others off to sim another part which is a tedious mess. When I reload a scene, disabled winds will mysteriously affect as though they are enabled until you go thru and enable and disable each one again, each time I opened a scene in a series of dynamics setups.

    An emitter can not pass thru a collision object set to bounce (tree branch coming up thru ground), and child emitters often require undesirably high birth rates to emit continuously- Ex: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=23 Bounce particles and Hard FX pieces would not come to a stop on a ground collision, so I had to just end the sim in mid shot to freeze them. Clearing motion on a child emitter with a baked parent (after scene save and load) will usually crash LW- you have to first clear parent, clear child, (and clear 'baby' if 3 or more deep in hiearchy) reload parent motions, everytime you want to change a child... a real pain with dozens of emitters. Clearing motion also changes the Max Particles to ' particles used' for some stupid reason and you have to keep changing it back. To get around HardFX pieces endlessly hopping around (a ridiculous problem), I had to push values in a direction that ruined other aspects that were working. Then I had to run the sim around 50 times (in a series of scenes that contribute one to the next) that take 5 to 15 minutes each, before I got just one sim where pieces happened to wind up with acceptable motions and resting positions. After a few weeks, *phew* stand back, no one breath, the cards are standing.

    Then the client speaks those dreaded words, 'Great... um, can you just speed up/slow down/ move slightly...?' And the cards tumble down. The director wanted to make a minor change in the speed at which the ground settles which totally hosed all the layers of clothFX, hardFX and PFX. Back to square one, running dozens of more sims for a few days (and playing the re-enable/disable effectors game). Now, you can see in the shot that the trunk does not appear to be colliding with the ground, and chunks laying on the ground all slide sideways near the end in a way I could do nothing about, but hope no one noticed. Other chunks were doing weird things that had to be hidden in comp. I never got the ground and chunks to look as good as they did before.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonwestmas View Post
    But Hyper-real Movie FX!? EEEK why? Get real people. Obviously I wouldn't go to NT for the hyper-real.
    Sounds like an argument for why LW is 'only for previz.' The renderer can be nudged into photorealism for much of the kind of thing I do with adding elements into a plate that is moving, brief, dark, at a distance, mixed with real elements, is lower-budget or fast turnaround. Its harder when the render is all CG, or where the camera is lingering in bright day light with nowhere to hide.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonwestmas View Post
    One determines ease of use and time saving techniques, the other is the final result of the user regardless of the amount of time involved and overall frustration. aight?
    That fish on the bus passenger flick is a good example of a lot of time and frustration with excellent results.
    I get a lot of compliments on my LW fire examples, but you'll notice that all of them are those little isolated tests like the ones I warn people not to view from any app as examples of what that app is capable of. Its always easier when you are just amusing yourself. Its very different when having to meet specific, real world production situations where LW lacks advanced control to appease a demanding client. LW worked fine when extensively used on Sin City for mostly set extensions and rendering (we got away with a lot in the shadowy black and white aspect that would have been more difficult in color), but it was preferable to use Max and maya for FX and character work. I can barely stranglehold LW into some simple, ok fire FX with the help of a heavy makeover in Fusion (I recently failed at a more complex fireball effect for a client), but just because I might be able to jury rig a house out of duct tap and paper clips doesnt mean it is the best way to go about it.
    Last edited by Mr Rid; 04-25-2010 at 07:03 PM.
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  7. #52
    i can only say it again Mr Rid, in your profession (CG VFX) i would never only use LW.
    that Dynamics in LW suck have been known for quite some time, so i'm surprised you did this.

    i know you said no the other day, but i say, add a second package (please!)
    you can't rely on LW alone for that type of work...!

    (well you can, but you see what happened)
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  8. #53
    as far as hyper-real renders,
    i think the embassy has done a quite good job at showing what LW is capable of.
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  9. #54
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    i can only say it again Mr Rid, in your profession (CG VFX) i would never only use LW....

    ...
    you can't rely on LW alone for that type of work...!
    Right. LW is better suited for simpler CG tasks and previz. As Jin once put it, yes you could cut down a tree with a steak knife, but there are more efficient tools out there. And yes, they cost more, but you get the results and opportunities that you pay for.
    "O K, so what's the speed of dark?"

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  10. #55
    having said this,
    there's btw LOTS of advanced stuff that LW can do that e.g. Maya can't do.

    find your additional 3D package, don't rely on LW only,
    if i was using Maya i know for sure i wouldn't rely on it for everything.
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  11. #56
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    having said this,
    there's btw LOTS of advanced stuff that LW can do that e.g. Maya can't do.
    I only know of small examples. Like in what LOTS of significant ways?
    "O K, so what's the speed of dark?"

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  12. #57
    VFX CG Supervisor Mike_RB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    having said this,
    there's btw LOTS of advanced stuff that LW can do that e.g. Maya can't do.

    find your additional 3D package, don't rely on LW only,
    if i was using Maya i know for sure i wouldn't rely on it for everything.
    Mr rid is totally right. Examples please
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  13. #58
    one sec, i wrote it down somewhere...

    beware that alot of them are 3D plugins...
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  14. #59
    some points,
    http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthr...636#post919636

    +Maya's horrible lack of backface culling that works
    +inability to animate UV maps in a way that is efficient (the MEL method sucks)
    +lack of Prismatic Caustics

    note this was Maya 8-9, hope things changed, but i doubt it

    how Maya Fluids will compare to Turbulence.LW -not sure
    there's MUCH more LW is better at, it just takes too long to write it.

    (DO NOTE, i'm not saying i'm right on ALL areas, but this above was my final conclusion)
    Last edited by erikals; 04-25-2010 at 07:37 PM.
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  15. #60
    see post #62
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