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View Full Version : New DVE engine...and controls like that of XD300



radams
06-17-2009, 08:44 AM
Hi all,

I'm just wanting to post a request...
Especially since SE 2.0 has taken this long to happen.

I would suggest NOT to update SE to 2.0 until it incorporates
the new dve engine and controls from the XD300...

And that it should support floating color space and jump from the old architecture to the next generation.

With just doing bug fixes with a couple of new features won't really help us out...or jump SE ahead of the NLE pack.

It needs to have the core updated with the nextgen toolsets...
and then build from there.

What do you all think.

Cheers,

SBowie
06-17-2009, 08:51 AM
Not to denigrate the value of the items you mention, Ray, I think there would be some reluctance to delay an already late release for the purpose of allowing anything to be added to the 2.0 specification unless it was both immensely compelling and reasonably simple to achieve.

Happily, it's not really an 'either-or' situation ... I fully expect that after 2.0 there will be a 2.1, .2, .5, and in due course, a 3.0. While I'd not like to see those who have been patient this long have to wait even longer for things already done (or nearly so) that they could really use now, I don't think the long wait we've seen between the last release and the upcoming one need to be considered a pattern for the future.

radams
06-17-2009, 04:10 PM
Hi Steve,

But with all the issues with subs and the old architecture holding options back...wouldn't it be more helpful to get past those HUGE limitations...and implement the next gen core...and positioning, dve engine now.

Thus also correcting many of the major gotchas that are in the old code and SE....
Since we are all now needing edge to edge FXs and transitions...which the old dve engine doesn't support etc....

Let's ask the userbase...

Would you rather have some patches that plug or mask the underlying issues with SE ?

or

Would you want the new core that eliminates these inheret issues and takes SE in the direction it should have been to start ?

It would be like relaunching SE...since it will really be a new product.

As for me...that would be the biggest thank you for waiting NT could give me.
SE finally using the new core...and building a proper workflow...rather than dealing with the old limited one.
Then this would also help to build market rather than just keep some of the old market.

Cheers,

radams
06-17-2009, 04:21 PM
Actually Steve,

I don't want to go thru 2.0, 2.1, 2.5 etc....to get to X.0 that includes the new core and changes...

SE should have been developed from the beginning with that core...and is something we as users are needing today...and as soon as possible.

Adding development time with the old code base is wasting time that could be used to give us the new core IMHO.

Yes we users have many needs and issues...but let's resolve them in as productive and timeline oriented way.

At least that's how I feel...and when looking at other NLE's out there...this is what NT needs to do to build market. Or they will loose it. IMHO.

Cheers,

radams
06-17-2009, 04:26 PM
And we need a 64 bit version... :)
Adobe already is...

Cheers,

donx
06-17-2009, 09:05 PM
I wouldn't mind getting all of the present development in version 1.8 ASAP and then waiting till Ray's vision is prepared for the release of version 2 in the distant future. :thumbsup:
.... or.... v3.Call it what you like.
In the meanwhile, I'm getting things done just fine right now with 1.51.
Apart from my Seagate media drives beginning to fail.:devil:

radams
06-18-2009, 03:06 AM
Apart from my Seagate media drives beginning to fail.:devil:

Sorry to hear that...I've been along time Seagate fan...but looking at the last two generations of drives...they've had some major issues and DOAs...along with many drives dead within 3 months.

For the first time I'm building a workstation around the Western Digital drives....for my raid...and Hitachi for my stand alone drives.

Wish you good luck.

Cheers

Quiet1onTheSet
06-18-2009, 08:39 AM
I wouldn't mind getting all of the present development in version 1.8 ASAP and then waiting till Ray's vision is prepared for the release of version 2 in the distant future. :thumbsup:
.... or.... v3.Call it what you like.
In the meanwhile, I'm getting things done just fine right now with 1.51.
Apart from my Seagate media drives beginning to fail.:devil:

Any particular reason why you haven't upgraded to SpeedEDIT 1.5.5, donx? Just wondering if there's something wonderfully unique about 1.5.1 that has you clinging to it.

As for the question of what we'd like to see relative to SpeedEDIT development and releases, I think it would be terrific if from now on, SpeedEDIT improvements and releases for Standalone, experienced a subsequent, short-term follow-up in SpeedEDIT-VT, and vice-versa.

The idea of releasing the previously anticipated SpeedEDIT 1.8 product, and having 2.0 provide the new feature set that's apparently being developed for use in the TriCaster XD300 Edit Media module seems to have some substantive value from a customer perception standpoint, IMHO.

Dufusyte
06-18-2009, 10:17 AM
I wouldn't mind getting all of the present development in version 1.8 ASAP and then waiting till Ray's vision is prepared for the release of version 2 in the distant future.
Must agree; the planned update sounds more like bug fixes and should be a free update, typically numbered 1.x, and provided to users along with an apology, "Sorry it took so long; thanks for waiting patiently, here's your bug fixes - free of course."

Then work on a move to the new engine, and sell that as 2.0.

I'm thinking, quite honestly, that trying to sell the current bug fixes as "2.0" will not be compelling enough for users to pay for the bug fixes. And that leaves Newtek with a group of long suffering 1.x users who have a buggy app and are not willing to pay for the bug fix, and a group of "2.x" users who opted to pay for something that they should not have been forced to pay for. For shame.

SBowie
06-18-2009, 10:35 AM
I never blame someone for trying to get something for nothing, though such attempts usually fail ... but attempting to portray SE1.5 as a "buggy app" and SE2.0 as nothing more than some bug fixes is demonstrably incorrect:

There have been a number of free maintenance releases already in the 1.x cycle.
There are a number of important new features in 2.0 (some which have been long requested, others much more recent.)


I suppose someone could argue that they would like a free release which has all of the new stuff stripped out, leaving only the handful of most recent bug fixes. I think that notion is neither very practical in the grand scheme nor obligatory from a product delivery standpoint. The last version 1.x release, while not 100% bug-free (please name some software at any rev which is) has been quite stable for the great majority of users, and seems a competent fulfilment of the SE 1.0 obligation. My honest view is that by this point, taking time to strip stuff out to make this happen would be an unwarranted waste of dev time.

Some will have a different view. I'd say that anyone who feels SE2 does not provide sufficient value (when the time comes and the price is known) is certainly free to vote with their wallet.

As far as apologies go, there have been several in the 6+ months SE2 has run overdue, and I am not too proud to offer another - "We're sorry SE2 wasn't ready sooner. We hope you'll find it was worth the wait."

radams
06-18-2009, 12:10 PM
Hi Steve,

You are so eloquent...
NT and you have apologized too much.

Thanks thou.

As for SE 2....
In deed it should have several improvements over bug fixes etc..
That for me was a given...

It is just that any development with the old code base...doesn't get us users to where we want or need to be.

As you are well aware of...issues and limitation that the old code causes.

SE is in serious need of a core overhaul...to that of the next gen.
To allow a proper platform to put your time to develop on.

For SE to gain market share...and grow...it will need to drastically improve
not marginally.

New DVE/positioning engine
New slow mo engine, clean & variable
Unified UI & elements (ie: subs and any element to work the same...including overlays, dve's, etc....)
Floating point Color space support...and 16/8 bit support
64 bit application
Better Meta data support

New Graph editor and macro tools
FXs/processing per clip bases as well as group, and full.

improved audio and realtime contols (ie Color) while during playback
interactive.

Bettter long form and asset management.
Better abilitiy to deal with LARGE formats...ie 2K and 4K workflows.
Improved image processing
Full support of still sequences...including float, hdr, and dpx....etc.
Locking video and audio
Ablitlity to add keyable layers for blends etc...
Garbage mattes and masks...for FXs, overlays etc...
Improved keying...for mpeg2 and other destructive formats. as well as in general...lightwrap is needed !!
degrain, and noise.
Multi camera edit
SDK
Integration into and out of other apps for complete workflow solutions.
(compositors; AE & Fusion, Authoring, Photoshop or production paint,
Audio apps, etc..)

What about better integration with 3D apps...ie: Lightwave
and at least look at 3D stereo options for future releases.

This is just a short list...and basic things that are needed.

I'ld also love to see RED support and other RAW formats supported.
Especially with Cannon's and Nikons DSMs out there. now.

Along with this, a rethink...on what is needed to make end to end solutions.
Please look at the changes in the markets.

Per one of my previous posts...
Many Editorial shops are seeing this as well.

The need for a VARIETY of formats...both smaller (for phones and portable devices) and Larger...2K and 4K....

SE is unique with its resolution independence..Please use it to gain market share...since you can also edit any matrix resolution or aspect...

Cheers,

radams
06-18-2009, 12:22 PM
I also forgot to ask for better versioning (with in the same project, or a UI that supports multiple project displays at once)...but that's down on my list.
But would be nice to have.

:)

SBowie
06-18-2009, 12:33 PM
It is just that any development with the old code base...Heheh, SE's core may be a little older than my best suit, but it's not exactly antediluvian, Ray. ;)

Without discounting your remarks about emerging markets, I have to say that you're not exactly a plain vanilla NLE user, either. Some of the things on your list are pretty advanced. I think like me you'd love to see SE push some boundaries into the compositing realm ... but very profound changes are not really something you'd normally expect of a single integer update.

As much as I'd like to see and end-to-end HDR pipeline, for example, I think a lot of SE users would agree that some of the slightly less exotic features on your list need to be addressed more urgently.

radams
06-18-2009, 12:50 PM
Hi Steve :)

I agree that there are more important issues than Float OpenEXR etc...
But I'm looking not just at a limited market...I'm looking at where the markets are going and needing.

Going to a 64 bit app...and not adding Float at this time would not be a wise move...

and that an end to end float workflow is what the markets are looking for.
At least the benefits of it :)

ALong with that...NLE's are also now needing...not wanting ...but needing some more functions like compositors...and finish post.

Look at Avid, FCP, & Adobe (thru better integration)...are all doing this.
An editor to day is also being expected to not just cut...but to also do finish work...I know we've chatted about that for awhile now...
So having those basic toolsets with in SE..is not only desired...but needed.
I don't think any of us users out here would not want those tools at our disposal...

Right everyone ?

And something I find interesting..pause and take a breath :)

Compositors these days are trying to add in more NLE type options and workflows...While most of the NLE's are trying to add more compositor and finishing tools...

Hmm....
Do you see a trend?
Do you understand why?

And yet, I will state that we will always need seperate NLE tools and Compositing tools...
But we need that overlap and complete integration between them.

IMHO, that is due to the objectives and needs for each discipline...but that overlap is SO needed!!!

We also need to look at direct production tools for the internet, point of purchase, interactive, etc...

What was once just a basic cutups and dissolves form...has changed in needs and scope.

:)

radams
06-18-2009, 12:57 PM
And something I haven't even proposed yet...

That NLE's like compositors and 3D apps...will need to start working with z-depth...

Oh I need to shut my mouth...but this is true...It's like editing and working with a REAL multiplane camera/shot...
Also allowing for better and improved controls for 3D stereo editing.
as well as for FXs and finish post....to give more realistic element behaviors and controls...

I'll stay quit for awhile now...
Sorry it just had to come out :)

Cheers,

SBowie
06-18-2009, 01:00 PM
I'll stay quit for awhile now...
Sorry it just had to come out :)No you won't - but that's ok, Ray - we love ya anyway ;)

radams
06-18-2009, 01:08 PM
8/

Quiet1onTheSet
06-18-2009, 06:07 PM
SE is unique with its resolution independence.

After this much time, that may no longer be so - but it certainly was, at the outset.
:hey:

donx
06-18-2009, 06:41 PM
At least Newtek has it's independence.:newtek:

... and yes, I am using SE v1.5.5 :thumbsup:

...and Ray, thanks for your advice, I went out today and bought a few 1TB Western Digital Caviar Black Drives. Even if I do a firmware update on the Barracuda ones that still work, I have totally lost confidence in Seagate.
:hammer:

radams
06-19-2009, 01:12 AM
I have totally lost confidence in Seagate.
:hammer:

That seems to have been happening to many people...and even dealers.

Hope they can get back to a better quality reliable system soon.
Thou Even their support sucks these days...they used to be great.

Cheers,

radams
06-22-2009, 02:52 PM
At least Newtek has it's independence.:newtek:

... and yes, I am using SE v1.5.5 :thumbsup:

...and Ray, thanks for your advice, I went out today and bought a few 1TB Western Digital Caviar Black Drives. Even if I do a firmware update on the Barracuda ones that still work, I have totally lost confidence in Seagate.
:hammer:

A caution on the Western Digital drives,

If you plan on using them in a RAID...WD doesn't suggest using the black drives...due to a possible error handling etc....

They recommend their E (enterprise) series...which are about the same price points...but were designed for RAID.

Note: that I'm using the Hitachi as stand along drives due their throughput for application or OS drived vs the WD's..

Cheers,

donx
06-22-2009, 04:19 PM
Thanks for the warning about caviar black and raid. It helps me decide whether to raid or not to raid. I think I will go with 2 separate 1TB drives and walk on thin ice like I always have. Besides, the Dual bay external case I got doesn't seem to work for raid, even though it is supposed to.
I will just develop a procedure for frequent Back-up of projects.

wvp
09-30-2009, 08:25 PM
You brought this up on another thread more recently, but this seems a better place for comment.

Would you want the new core that eliminates these inheret issues and takes SE in the direction it should have been to start ?
Yep, sure would love that.
However, if it means another year or more waiting for it I MIGHT prefer getting some of the many features /capabilities long requested now.


I don't want to go thru 2.0, 2.1, 2.5 etc....to get to X.0 that includes the new core and changes
and I hear ya. Now that 2 has been announced, I may sit out the upgrade myself.
Ray, definitely understand what you're driving at. Now we have see if NT agrees and implements these "wow" things sooner than later. In the meantime they will see how many of us bite off on any "dink and dunk" changes.
At this point NT has been focused on "live" - live switching, live (realtime) editing. The next phase needs to be more compositing and vast support of the vast file formats if they are going to keep up in the editing area

UnCommonGrafx
10-01-2009, 04:31 AM
snip... if they are going to keep up in the editing area

Why does this statement come out so often when it's obvious they don't have that concern? Seems to come out like a dare...

DiscreetFX
10-01-2009, 07:52 AM
To be brutally honest another thing that hurts SpeedEDIT sales is the overreaching DRM copy protection. Why not just make it USB key based like LightWave 3D? LW3D has sold over 100,000 copies so it's method of protection does not upset customers. A 30 day demo version of SE 2.0 would help too. Sony Vegas has done that for years.

ScorpioProd
10-01-2009, 11:48 AM
As for the 30 day demo, acutally EVERYONE on the PC side has done that for years. When I needed to move to a new NLE a few years ago for HDV support, I tried full 30 day demos of EDIUS 4 and Vegas 7 and did real HDV projects start to finish in each so I could decide which one was right for me. Adobe Premiere Pro also had a 30 day demo, though with some limitations, which was why I didn't try it.

The problem is in the way Newtek built SpeedEDIT, in terms of the licensing of codecs and components of it that they didn't build themselves. That makes it rather difficult for them to have a demo of it. I understand this, but frankly I think they should have thought of this when they designed it. I really don't see why anyone would buy a NLE that they can't test out themselves when everyone else lets you test before you buy.

As for "keeping up in the editor", Newtek has their own ideas of what they want in it, and that's that. It is up to the market to decide on the value of their choices in features and pricing. It's nothing for us to worry about. I've kept to my policy from pre-NAB, I'm not requesting any more new features till SE 2.0 is out, I don't see a point to putting in any requests till that point.

Oh, and yes, I'd most definitely prefer a USB dongle for copy protection.

rbartlett
10-01-2009, 04:27 PM
Oh, and yes, I'd most definitely prefer a USB dongle for copy protection.

I'd hope NewTek appreciate these virtues of equivalence and that future SE releases activate against the current registration system so that the supplied license code gets applied to that same physical dongle. Doing so in a way that is completely removed from the Windows OS version or sub-version. It seems rather tardy to me that an OS change invalidates the product ID/activation code you are presented with in so much as your unlock code becomes invalid. One deals with this by dual booting and being restricted to keeping SE on the older system or to call and explain this to customer services. Not doubting how good this works but it is clunky to need to, IMHO.

Nominating an already existing/installed LW, Aura or VT dongle ought to be a reasonable way to handle a purely software based rollout if the dongles themselves are prohibitive. One might judge this by observing how many seats have sold to customers with multiple products on their accounts.

ScorpioProd
10-01-2009, 10:37 PM
Well, honestly, other companies have very efficient automated on-line ways of moving licenses between computers or renewing them if there is a hardware change that invalidates the current license.

IF Newtek could implement something like that, that would be fine. But having to call customer service? That's not an efficient solution.

That's why a USB dongle seems like a better system than the current one to me.