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Paul_Boland
06-06-2009, 01:44 PM
If anyone fron Newtek is reading this, I know that there is a secret forum somewhere for those in HardCORE to talk about Lightwave CORE, but for us out here who haven't joined HardCORE, new news is very thin on the ground. Any chance of some sort of news update soon of developments, how things are shaping up, new features, etc? I appreciate you don't want to show all your cards while CORE is in development, but some news update would be very welcome.

Cageman
06-06-2009, 01:55 PM
Hmm...

I was going to give a hint, but I will refrain from it. :D Hopefully, Chuck, Jay or Jonas may be able to give some comments.

:)

Kuzey
06-06-2009, 01:56 PM
They still have the massive Q&A between Jay and the hardcore guys to be published...it's like 3 or 4 months overdue. The fact it's late kinda gives the impression that the road map is changing each week and no one wants to be tied down to statements that might be wrong in a week or two :D

Seriously, maybe we'll get something once the next stage of production starts...fingers crossed.

Kuzey

Kuzey
06-06-2009, 02:00 PM
Hmm...

I was going to give a hint, but I will refrain from it. :D Hopefully, Chuck, Jay or Jonas may be able to give some comments.

:)

Haha ....so something is brewing :D

Kuzey

TalleyJC
06-08-2009, 01:29 PM
The Joke that we use in the Core Forum is :"The First rule about Core, is not to talk about Core."

The team is working steadily and we have been given a fair number of releases to play with, which you could have guessed so there's no surprise there.

Sorry we can't tell you anything. All information will come from Jay and the Team leads.

Paul_Boland
06-08-2009, 02:15 PM
Thanks. Hopefully we get some new news soon.

Dexter2999
06-08-2009, 02:32 PM
As a Hardcore member and respecting the NDA what I will say is that they have been very good about keeping CORE members updated.

The CORE members have been very good about giving feedback and suggestions.

I'm sure when they have something solid to be proud of they will make another statement public because it can only serve to spark further interest and sales.

Baby steps.
Baby steps.

monovich
06-08-2009, 03:03 PM
I'm not CORE, and I haven't seen any sort of update in a long time. I'd like to get excited, but the silence is deafening. It doesn't take much to tease people.

Sarford
06-08-2009, 05:27 PM
Doesn't take much to get people to go wild on negative speculation either...

robertoortiz
06-08-2009, 08:31 PM
The Joke that we use in the Core Forum is :"The First rule about Core, is not to talk about Core."

The team is working steadily and we have been given a fair number of releases to play with, which you could have guessed so there's no surprise there.

Sorry we can't tell you anything. All information will come from Jay and the Team leads.

Amen..
Guys trust me when I say that it will be a solid program.
The members of the core community are being QUITE vocal of what we have seen are we can be quite blunt.

If you guys want your voices heard there are threads posted on the non core section of this forums where you can make your opinions heard. Trust me when I say that we are making sure the devs can see all the comments/ requests you guys have posted.

for example:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99364

-R

Paul_Boland
08-06-2009, 07:29 PM
I appreciate that members signed up to Hard CORE are under NDA to not talk about what they are seeing in the new Lightwave CORE, but again I find myself having to raise the point that information on CORE outside of the Hard CORE membership is very thin on the ground.

To the developers, I appreciate it's work in progress, but it's now August and news on CORE is very little so far for those of us not in Hard CORE. Any chance of some new news please!?!

aidenvfx
08-06-2009, 10:28 PM
I am a member of CORE. I agree that those in CORE are kept very much in the loop. JOIN HARDCORE and find out the secrets ;)

Matt
08-07-2009, 02:24 AM
Needless to say, things are moving at a pace, but I would understand the need for more info if I were 'on the other side' as it were.

I think they maybe waiting until there's a few more things in place before doing a more public reveal, but I'm guessing.

So it's not because they've forgotten users outside of Hardcore.

Kuzey
08-07-2009, 02:56 AM
To be honest, I say stuff the reveal.... just state if Core has moved onto stage 2 or if it's still stuck on modelling tools. Also, narrow down what "sometime" means in terms of Core being a full program, is it 18, 36 or 83 months ?? Even a guess would be nice at this stage.

To me, it sounds like Newtek is unsure of the path they are going, taking three steps back for every single step forward. This is a result of the lack of information coming out. Like I said before, if you lock in a feature, report it and move on. That way we have a steady stream of news.

Otherwise, it'll be the year 2030 before we actually know anything about Core1 :hey::hey:

Kuzey

Kuzey
08-07-2009, 03:08 AM
Actually, if they do the something like the Mac hotfix update posts, that would be great. Even twice a month would do. Just get some news out there, no matter how detailed it is or not.

Kuzey

Yog
08-07-2009, 03:16 AM
To be blunt, it's WAY too early in CORE's development to be making public comments on what may or may not be in it for the version 1.0 release.
In fact in the Hardcore membership circle, we don't have any real idea of what may or may not be in the supposed Q4 release, and to what degree these features may or may not be implimented. :question:

Things are meant to move faster once the SDK is released, sometime soon, but until then everything other than basic modelling is pure speculation by everyone other than Newtek. There are hints, and a lot of hoping by users, but no roadmap or feature set has been released.
Yes there has been a lot of information, just very little in the way of actual specifics.

Despite what some have said, I would strongly recommend NOT joining the hardcore program if you are expecting a fully functional replacement to Lightwave in the next few months. ONLY join if you want to "possibly" help shape the direction of Core over the next few years.

I hope I haven't broken the spirit of the NDA by generalising on the progress of Core (purposely haven't mentioned any specifics good or bad), but I do feel it is a little unethical when some people try to get others to sign up to a very early Alpha release, hinting that it is the next revoltionary thing that will rock the 3D world in just a few months time.

Cageman
08-07-2009, 03:16 AM
To be honest, I say stuff the reveal.... just state if Core has moved onto stage 2 or if it's still stuck on modelling tools.

CORE, as we all should know, is a complete rewrite with integration in mind (a single app, modeling, animation, rendering under the same roof).

As far as I know, the dev-team is quite specialised, which means that there are one/two guys working on rendering/shading. Another one working on modeling and so on. So, this boils down to the fact that several aspects of CORE is worked on at the same time... however, for integration and whatnot, some things can't be brought in until someone else has finished their part and so on.

This means that it's quite possible that CORE will have more than just modeling in the v1.0. It does also indicate that none of the things in v1.0 will be regarded as final, however, there is a chance that some aspects of CORE v1.0 will be regarded as very, very close to final.

Details and specifics... just wait until Jay, Jonas or Chuck makes an announcement. I'm just totaly guessing here....

;)

cyatic
08-07-2009, 11:45 AM
Hi guys,
I see what you're saying, but I'm one of the people on the fence. I want to buy in, but I don't want to plunk down some money if Core 1.0 (?) isn't going to be a full replacement for Lightwave 9.6. It's supposed to be released 4th Quarter, that's comming up fast. Why shouldn't we expect a good replacement? Why announce a new version and ask people to buy in and not have it be a good replacement for the current version? Why not announce it when it was almost complete and have people beta test to get final tweaks and fixes done. I haven't heard any real solid info about core. I think if there was more info released about it, just a status update, it would instill more confidence in people's mind. Maybe it would also produce more sales. Back in the day weren't beta testers a select few? Now we have to pay to become beta testers. Maybe I'm just crazy! I would just personally like to hear more info about the future of the application. I just don't want to pay money if this is going to be a Windows Vista release, with a Windows 7 the following year. Thank you everyone.

Cyatic

Carm3D
08-07-2009, 02:03 PM
Don't hold your breath for seeing something new. I'm not a HardCore member so I can say anything.. Even though it's speculation, Jay has said several times that the initial core release will not replace Lightwave.

I haven't joint because I already have 3 modelers.. Lightwave, Silo & ZBrush. I don't need a 4th. I'm waiting for evidence of awesome new dynamics tools, and a whole new way of doing non-linear animation, etc... And I'm confident it will be a loooong time before I see any of that. I'm hoping they retain IKBooster.. Some people have told me that's not going to happen. But in any case, it's going to take time.. Have patience.

Mike_RB
08-07-2009, 02:14 PM
I appreciate that members signed up to Hard CORE are under NDA to not talk about what they are seeing in the new Lightwave CORE

I signed no NDA, it's a polite request that information be kept in Newtek's hands for timing delivery to the outside world.

cyatic
08-07-2009, 03:24 PM
I guess that's what my problem is with Core. Jay saying it's not going to replace the current version of Lightwave, why? Why the big rush to release something just to release it? Why not take another year and do a good release? Why the need to send it out as is? You're pretty much saying "Give us your money, even though this years release isn't that great or complete. The next version should be better though." Don't you think you're shooting yourself in the foot? Why would I pre-buy a product that isn't going to be 100%? Would you buy a car if you were told next years model would be better?

Carm3D
08-07-2009, 03:30 PM
It will probably be a solid release and a cool program.. But it won't be much more than a modeler. So the question is, do you want to pay ~$400 for a modeler?

gordonrobb
08-07-2009, 04:42 PM
Hmmm, I'm sorry if I piss anyone off with this. I hummed and hawed (Scottish for debated for a long time), about joining core, and was convinced by the thought that I would be involved in the shaping of the product. I was also given to believe, anad I think this was fairly public, that Core 1.0 would more than likely be a modelling improvement. I think it will be more than that, but that's not for me to say.

What I do want to say is that there is no secret group, there is a group of people that have paid to be involved. I have to say, if I was looking in from the outside, I would be thinking, should I pay to get involved, or will I wait for the release.

Just my views.

hrgiger
08-07-2009, 07:18 PM
I guess that's what my problem is with Core. Jay saying it's not going to replace the current version of Lightwave, why? Why the big rush to release something just to release it? Why not take another year and do a good release? Why the need to send it out as is? You're pretty much saying "Give us your money, even though this years release isn't that great or complete. The next version should be better though." Don't you think you're shooting yourself in the foot? Why would I pre-buy a product that isn't going to be 100%? Would you buy a car if you were told next years model would be better?

The fact is, whether you buy in or not this year, CORE is Lightwave's next evolutionary step. And we have to crawl before we can walk. Why not take another year to make a good release you ask? You have that option. Wait until next year and buy the next release. There you go. This years CORE is not going to be for everyone and Newtek has not hidden that fact.
I bought in not expecting a full release or replacement for Lightwave 9.6 with CORE's first release. For me, the most important part of this whole deal is that there is going to be another Lightwave. A lightwave without all the limitations of the current Lightwave which, while I love, has frustrated me many times because of those limitations. By joining in now, I get to test the program as it develops and add my input on where things are headed. I've always hated waiting for a couple years for the next big release and not knowing anything on what to expect. If you look at it from another standpoint, my $395 I paid for my years membership breaks down to about $33 a month. And to me, that's worth staying informed and testing the program all the while and getting the release in the end. It's actually a rather good deal. In exchange, Newtek gets probably a much needed influx of cash to fund development of the next generation Lightwave.

IMI
08-07-2009, 07:36 PM
Well said, HR. You almost sold me with that $33.00 per month line. I never thought of it that way. I pay more than that per month for the natural gas that powers my oven. ;)

But I agree with Carm too. CORE isn't going to be "all there" come Q4 and I decided to wait to see what CORE 1.0 looks like.
And anybody who's been following CORE since February - HardCORE or...civilian... knows what the deal is, what it has been from the beginning. Jay and Chuck both said - several times - that CORE wouldn't stand on its own and would need the accompaniment of a new version of good old regular LW. 9.6.1? 9.7.. who knows?

But they also stressed many times if you're not into the idea of testing an app that won't be "all there" even on release day, then don't join. There's been no deceit or anything like that.

The problem is, too many people read too much into it, saw conspiracies where there were none, and didn't pay attention.

Not saying anyone here, in this thread, but that there was a lot of that going on at first.

hrgiger
08-07-2009, 11:11 PM
It will probably be a solid release and a cool program.. But it won't be much more than a modeler. So the question is, do you want to pay ~$400 for a modeler?

I don't know, people paid more then twice that for Modo before it was more then a modeler. And I assure you, CORE 1.0 will be more then a modeler. But as has been stressed, it won't be replacing 9.6 just yet.

Snosrap
08-08-2009, 12:05 AM
If you look at it from another standpoint, my $395 I paid for my years membership breaks down to about $33 a month.

Also NT stated that Hardcore members were guaranteed the $395 price on any subsequent upgrades or subscriptions. That alone hooked me and my boss.

Carm3D
08-08-2009, 02:24 AM
Also NT stated that Hardcore members were guaranteed the $395 price on any subsequent upgrades or subscriptions. That alone hooked me and my boss.

NewTek may regret that offer if hyper-inflation sets in from all of these bailouts.

cyatic
08-08-2009, 07:47 AM
It will probably be a solid release and a cool program.. But it won't be much more than a modeler. So the question is, do you want to pay ~$400 for a modeler?

Well? It's a $500 modeler now. I guess I missed some information. Looks like I'll be waiting till Core 1.Something - Core 2.0 to join the crowd. Thanks for the info guys/gals.:thumbsup:

cyatic

Kuzey
08-08-2009, 08:20 AM
CORE, as we all should know, is a complete rewrite with integration in mind (a single app, modeling, animation, rendering under the same roof).

As far as I know, the dev-team is quite specialised, which means that there are one/two guys working on rendering/shading. Another one working on modeling and so on. So, this boils down to the fact that several aspects of CORE is worked on at the same time... however, for integration and whatnot, some things can't be brought in until someone else has finished their part and so on.

This means that it's quite possible that CORE will have more than just modeling in the v1.0. It does also indicate that none of the things in v1.0 will be regarded as final, however, there is a chance that some aspects of CORE v1.0 will be regarded as very, very close to final.

Details and specifics... just wait until Jay, Jonas or Chuck makes an announcement. I'm just totaly guessing here....

;)

Yes...I know all the coders are not generalists and I know parts of it might be done now but can't be hooked in until the code base is ready :hey:

The thing is, Newtek did say they were going to concentrate on certain sections per quarter, starting with the modeling tools and unlocking new features/sections as they go along. Now we are in stage two and we should have had new stuff for the Hardcore members to test. I can't see how hard it is to for Newtek to say we have moved on to new areas of the Core, surfacing, nodes, render engine, CA tools or whatever it the case is...or is not.

Back to the time frame part.

I'll put it another way, if the Core is going to take 5 years plus to become complete, then are we to expect that LW will live on (even though they said the current series is the end)....with LW10, LW11 LW12 versions etc. ??

Because, it will be lame if it's 2012 and we are still using LW9.6.1 and the Core is still a year off from being complete. A basic target time frame will be welcomed news. heck they can even say....we hope to have it complete in 2 years and might take another two years if they hit a wall along the way etc.

Kuzey

greent
08-08-2009, 09:15 AM
(wrong topic, mods delete this :-)

geothefaust
08-08-2009, 10:03 AM
I'll put it another way, if the Core is going to take 5 years plus to become complete, then are we to expect that LW will live on (even though they said the current series is the end)....with LW10, LW11 LW12 versions etc. ??

Because, it will be lame if it's 2012 and we are still using LW9.6.1 and the Core is still a year off from being complete. A basic target time frame will be welcomed news. heck they can even say....we hope to have it complete in 2 years and might take another two years if they hit a wall along the way etc.

Kuzey

I don't think I can say anything specific here as that would break the first rule of HC... Based on what I have seen so far, I really don't think it's going to take that long.

cyatic
08-08-2009, 10:11 AM
Yes...I know all the coders are not generalists and I know parts of it might be done now but can't be hooked in until the code base is ready :hey:

The thing is, Newtek did say they were going to concentrate on certain sections per quarter, starting with the modeling tools and unlocking new features/sections as they go along. Now we are in stage two and we should have had new stuff for the Hardcore members to test. I can't see how hard it is to for Newtek to say we have moved on to new areas of the Core, surfacing, nodes, render engine, CA tools or whatever it the case is...or is not.

Back to the time frame part.

I'll put it another way, if the Core is going to take 5 years plus to become complete, then are we to expect that LW will live on (even though they said the current series is the end)....with LW10, LW11 LW12 versions etc. ??

Because, it will be lame if it's 2012 and we are still using LW9.6.1 and the Core is still a year off from being complete. A basic target time frame will be welcomed news. heck they can even say....we hope to have it complete in 2 years and might take another two years if they hit a wall along the way etc.

Kuzey

I agree Kuzey. I don't want to plop down $500 for WIP modeler this year, another $500 next year for some animation tools, $500 the following year for an added renderer, etc. I mean I'm reading all this stuff and all that pops into my head is MODO. It looks like Newtek is using their business model. If anything, I think Newtek will begin to lose customers. How long till there is a fully functional and complete version of Core? 1.0? 2.0? 2010? I think if Newtek were to give some kind of time frame it would ease a lot of peoples minds. "When it's done," only work for Id Software. I'm not mad or angry, just want a little more info without having to pay $500.

cyatic

cresshead
08-08-2009, 10:58 AM
Newtek are not saying much publically, arn't at siggraph 2009 showing off Core this year or even talking about it as a "in development application".

Newtek are basically doing what xsi did during it's development, they've 'gone dark' with the difference that if you join hardcore they hand you a flashlight,
so that you can poke around and have a look as it grows, divides and expands in the newtek petri dish:hey:

when this gets released it'll kill all the other apps stone dead.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76077&d=1249751552

Paul_Boland
08-08-2009, 03:06 PM
Thanks to everyone for contributing to this topic, I've actually learned more about CORE in reading the replies here since my last post, then I have since the original release news of CORE.

One thing that has caught me off guard is the comment that CORE 1.0 won't be a full package, it won't replace Lightwave. Sorry, perhaps I missed that news from Newtek, but this is the first I've heard of this. I was expecting CORE to appear at the end of this year, early next year, as a full package. Modelling, texturing, rigging, animation, the works!! Now I learn this is not so?!?

I thought CORE was going be Lightwave taken in a new direction with new tools and techniques. Personally, I was hoping some liquid simulation stuff would be part of CORE, but regardless of that wish, I was under the impression that CORE was going to be a full package. This is not so?!?

In that case I doubt CORE 1.0 will be for me and my excitement and looking-forward-to levels have dropped. I have to agree with the post above me here, if a full package version of CORE is years off, are we going to be using Lightwave 9.6 (I'm using Lightwave 8.5), for years to come?

I remember when news of CORE broke and 3D World magazine did an article on it, and spoke to some big folks in the 3D industry. I got the impression from that article and their interview that CORE was going to be a full package too. Think I might dig out that article and reread it...

Thanks for the input though, very much appreciated.

geothefaust
08-08-2009, 03:28 PM
Hey Paul,

CORE WILL replace LW. Not every portion of LW from from the start, but it will eventually replace it entirely.

CORE WILL be a full package as well, but again, not from it's initial release. They are working on things as they go.

You should look for the posts Chuck and Jay have on the matter here on the forums. They stated it numerous times what CORE will and will not be, upon initial release and final product.

Paul_Boland
08-08-2009, 08:23 PM
Hi Geothefaust.

I do understand that CORE will eventually be a full package that will take over from Lightwave, it will be the new Lightwave, all I'm saying above is I thought version 1 was going to be just that, a full 3D package. Since it's not going to be, how long before it is? And in the mean time, what plans for development of Lightwave as it stands, if any?

Every year the big packages seem to get a new release and they are full releases with extra bits and pieces. My only concern is that when CORE is released how will it be accepted by the 3D community? Put yourself in the shoes of a 3D Studio Max user... News of Lightwave CORE has caught your attention and like me, you believe it's going to be a full package. Then it gets released and if what is said above is true, what you discover is that it's not a full package, not initially anyway and it will be some time before it is one. It's a new start for Lightwave but on initial release you still need a full 3D software package to work along side it. It is not a full standalone 3D product.

Someone else posted above that they too didn't know CORE was not going to be a full 3D package on version 1, so I'm not alone. I think Newtek need to clarify this in the 3D landscape because if that's two of us here, at the Newtek forums, who didn't know CORE wouldn't be a full package on initial release, then there are surely many others outside of Newtek, but in the 3D scene, who are waiting for CORE, expecting it to be a full 3D package. They are going to be in for one hell of a shock when CORE appears. This could be a bad starting for CORE's life.

Paul_Boland
08-08-2009, 08:27 PM
Well? It's a $500 modeler now. I guess I missed some information. Looks like I'll be waiting till Core 1.Something - Core 2.0 to join the crowd. Thanks for the info guys/gals.:thumbsup:

cyatic

Here is the post in question. From reading this it seems that Cyatic also believed CORE was going to be a full 3D package. If this preception is out there in the 3D landscape, it needs to be clarified before release of CORE of the new start of Lightwave could get a bad reception.

Paul_Boland
08-08-2009, 09:02 PM
You should look for the posts Chuck and Jay have on the matter here on the forums. They stated it numerous times what CORE will and will not be, upon initial release and final product.

Sorry, don't mean to be a bother, but I've spent the last half hour looking at posts by both guys and have only found a handful of posts which address CORE but don't specifically talk about what will and won't be in version 1, and where the final product is heading. Any chance of a specific link? Perhaps these discussions were done in the HardCORE forums which, if is the case, raises my point about lack of information for us not in HardCORE.

cresshead
08-08-2009, 09:55 PM
it's difficult to give you a clear answer..people on HC can't say much cos of the NDA and people not on HC don't know much...so can only guess.

lightwave continues to get updates but they will be for people on HC and updates to lightwave will relate to working alongside CORE and possibly general updates/bug fixes to features that may not relate to core also.

if you want to see updates to lightwave you'll need to be on the hard core program i believe, or at least that's how i understand it...correct me if i'm wrong on that.

Nicolas Jordan
08-08-2009, 09:59 PM
Newtek are basically doing what xsi did during it's development, they've 'gone dark' with the difference that if you join hardcore they hand you a flashlight,


Yep that's exactly right and I couldn't agree more. There was some talk for a while that they weren't going to go dark to recode Lightwave but inevitably they did anyway.

Nicolas Jordan
08-08-2009, 10:01 PM
if you want to see updates to lightwave you'll need to be on the hard core program i believe, or at least that's how i understand it...correct me if i'm wrong on that.

I think there is still a 9.6.1 maintenance update coming sometime soon for those who aren't part of the Hardcore but own version 9.x series.

Sensei
08-08-2009, 10:08 PM
Every year the big packages seem to get a new release and they are full releases with extra bits and pieces.

They are just fixes with little added overall..
And these updates are like movie sequels- to suck money from customers..


My only concern is that when CORE is released how will it be accepted by the 3D community? Put yourself in the shoes of a 3D Studio Max user...

Core v1.0 rather won't be for 3D Studio Max user.. It's for LW v9.x user..



News of Lightwave CORE has caught your attention and like me, you believe it's going to be a full package. Then it gets released and if what is said above is true, what you discover is that it's not a full package, not initially anyway and it will be some time before it is one. It's a new start for Lightwave but on initial release you still need a full 3D software package to work along side it. It is not a full standalone 3D product.

That's why LW v9.x will be with it.. Model in Core v1.0, animate and render in LW v9.x. Or something like that.

See Modo, it's at 4.x and it's not even full package..

cresshead
08-08-2009, 10:21 PM
..hey i'm a 3dsmax user!..and have lw and core!...and zbrush!..eek!

max2010 got quite abit this release btw....unlike maya!

AdamAvenali
08-08-2009, 10:25 PM
....unlike maya!

haha heyyyy, we got 5 mental ray render nodes, but you're right :thumbsup:

hrgiger
08-08-2009, 11:35 PM
Sorry, don't mean to be a bother, but I've spent the last half hour looking at posts by both guys and have only found a handful of posts which address CORE but don't specifically talk about what will and won't be in version 1, and where the final product is heading. Any chance of a specific link? Perhaps these discussions were done in the HardCORE forums which, if is the case, raises my point about lack of information for us not in HardCORE.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95480&highlight=core

This link is where Jay discusses CORE on the public forums. Further in the thread, he goes on to say(note especially the text in purple, this will address Jay discussing how CORE will not fully replace 9.6 for version 1):

For those who need clarification:

The Q1 release of CORE is focusing on the CORE modeling toolset. That focus is due, in part, to the lack of attention that Modeler had received during the last couple of revisions, as stated. It is also due to the fact that we need the atoms to be in place in order to animate them. The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now, and those that will be activated soon, are required as a foundation for animation, which will be activated sometime after the Q1 release (keep reading).

Will there be features in the Q1 release that are not modeling-specific? Yes; as you have seen we are showing a light in the outline panel, as well as a camera. That said, implementation of these particular features will be very limited in scope for the Q1 release.

After the initial Q1 releases, we will have subsequent releases that fix whatever bugs are in the Q1 release, as well as activate new features and refine workflows, change nomenclature as determined, and so on. Much like the way open beta worked, we will pursue the process for HardCORE in a similar manner. The planned Q4 release will be considered the final 1.0 version of the product.

The feature set for the final Q4 release has not yet been set, and it would be irresponsible for me to offer conjecture about it at this time. Some of you have pointed out that the reasons we are holding back on this is due to our experiences learned during the LightWave v9.x series, and you would be correct. Some of those who are insisting on a final feature list now are the same people who criticized the fact that certain features did not make the cut in LightWave v9.x. In all cases, those features failed due to the aging architecture of that series.

I can say, with certainty, that the Q4 release will not have all of the features of LightWave v9.6. In many cases, CORE will offer features beyond those of LightWave v9.6, but not in all cases. LightWave v9.6 was made very robust and feature rich in anticipation of a transition period between the old and new technologies. What CORE will not address in the Q4 time frame is addressed by the original LightWave, and as much as we can, CORE will offer a good interchange with the original LightWave.

LightWave CORE is the way to the future. As it is a completely new architecture, it is going to take awhile to get everything online. In some cases, features will have evolved to the point that there will be no need for an analogous feature from the original LightWave.

For those wondering just what CORE is capable of, I speak to that in the video. Note that I am speaking about the capabilities of the CORE design, and in doing so, I am making forward looking statements; do not take these statements as a guarantee of specific features by specific dates by themselves. As we move closer to our target dates, we will be discussing the specific feature sets.

If this isn't good enough for you to join HardCORE today, then don't. No one is twisting your arms to do so. If you do decide to join, you will enjoy an interchange with our team along the lines that have been demonstrated in the last few days in the HardCORE forum, an experience that I have found to be very enjoyable.

For those of you who are taking a "wait and see" attitude, I have no trouble with that perspective at all. I merely ask you to keep in mind, as you issue your opinions, that we are building what you have always asked of us. It is a big, job, and an incredible step by NewTek to do this. Some of you will get your feature wishes fulfilled by the Q4 release, and some of you will not, so be prepared for that, and consider that before you buy into HardCORE. Make your decision with your eyes opened; that is the whole purpose of both the statement I made at the beginning of this thread, and the same purpose for the statement that you are reading right now.

In the end, I think that most of you will be very happy with CORE; it's just a matter of when.

http://fxmogul.com/articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleName=Interview_With_Jay_Ro th

An interview with Jay on CORE

walfridson
08-09-2009, 02:35 AM
I've always wondered when the sdk will be made public...

gordonrobb
08-09-2009, 02:49 AM
My understanding was that core 1.0 would be a complete product in terms of heirarchy and and how it operates. It may very well focus on modelling as one of the elements, but that it may also link to some of 9.6 for other functions. The key is how it will link, I think that is were the dramatic differences will be.

Kuzey
08-09-2009, 12:44 PM
Newtek are not saying much publically, arn't at siggraph 2009 showing off Core this year or even talking about it as a "in development application".

Newtek are basically doing what xsi did during it's development, they've 'gone dark' with the difference that if you join hardcore they hand you a flashlight,
so that you can poke around and have a look as it grows, divides and expands in the newtek petri dish:hey:

when this gets released it'll kill all the other apps stone dead.




Actually, they have said from the start that more information is coming, there was that Q&A with Jay that hasn't seen the light of day yet...that is 5 months or so late now.

So, I can't understand why they are going "dark" now, that says to me atleast that there are major problems in the development of the Core or Newtek it's self. One thing I'm getting is that Newtek hasn't worked out what they want the Core to actually be, or the infomation would been out there, they have this grand idea but no time frame, no targets etc.

Can someone tell me the focus has moved on from modelling tools, one would expect that to be the easiest part of the whole thing...to be honest :)

Kuzey

Paul_Boland
08-09-2009, 12:53 PM
Thanks, Hrgiger, appreciate that.

Sensei, you said Lightwave CORE 1.0 will be aimed at existing Lightwave 3D users. I recall the 3D World news article on CORE when it was first announced and in it, one 3D studio said that they had moved from Lightwave to XSI because the character animation features in XSI are so good. But he did go on to say that when CORE is released he would look at Lightwave again to see if there was a place to bring it back into his production. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but to me that says that this guy also thinks CORE will be a full featured product. Since he's moved from Lightwave which is currently at version 9.6, do you think he'll jump back to Lightwave 9.6 with the CORE addon?

Let me jump to the point, this topic opened my eyes to the fact CORE 1.0 isn't going to be a full standalone product. It seems others here to (above) also assumed CORE 1.0 was a full 3D standalone product. All I'm saying is, if this is the impression out there in the 3D landscape, it needs to be clarified or when CORE 1.0 arrives and users realise it's currently aimed at existing Lightwave 9.6 users, it won't get the acceptance folks are waiting for.

cresshead
08-09-2009, 01:10 PM
5 months till end of the year, plenty of time to brew up lightwave CORE..and core is not nailed to be released at q4 either...it'l ship 'when it's ready'..so all we have currently is>>

pure guesswork from everyone..nothing more.

there is a video up on the lightwave archive site with some chatter on core so they've not gone totally "dark" but they do not chat here much..they save that for the people who are investing in newtek's new app over on the HC forums.

hrgiger
08-09-2009, 01:18 PM
Can someone tell me the focus has moved on from modelling tools, one would expect that to be the easiest part of the whole thing...to be honest :)

Kuzey

It isn't really a matter of easy. As I posted above from Jay, the modeling tools need to be in place because animation in CORE will require it. It's just logical that the initial focus was modeling.
It's kind of a misnomer anyway that focus is on any one area of the program for two reasons. For one, not all Lightwave developers have something to do with modeling. So you can be sure that while one developer is focusing on modeling tools, another one is working on putting animation in place.
The second reason is that CORE is a unified environment where one system is dependent on another and so developers can't really build one system like modeling and then move onto another one like dynamics. If you consider what is written in the tech FAQ's about CORE, you can have the color channel of one node to drive a lattice deformation node which is itself driving another node. All systems have to be built in tandem with the same level of access in mind.

Kuzey
08-09-2009, 01:36 PM
It isn't really a matter of easy. As I posted above from Jay, the modeling tools need to be in place because animation in CORE will require it. It's just logical that the initial focus was modeling.
It's kind of a misnomer anyway that focus is on any one area of the program for two reasons. For one, not all Lightwave developers have something to do with modeling. So you can be sure that while one developer is focusing on modeling tools, another one is working on putting animation in place.
The second reason is that CORE is a unified environment where one system is dependent on another and so developers can't really build one system like modeling and then move onto another one like dynamics. If you consider what is written in the tech FAQ's about CORE, you can have the color channel of one node to drive a lattice deformation node which is itself driving another node. All systems have to be built in tandem with the same level of access in mind.

So the mistake was how Newtek worded everything from the start. It's not me that said the focus will be on this or that during this or that quater etc :)

I would have been happy if they worked on the whole program from the start. For example, the render engine is pretty much ready to plugin and they should have, even if the surface system or other things might not be in place to take advantage of it. At least you could have tested the one app v two app system and see if that worked well.

Newtek said what they did as far as information goes and they should sick to it, let the information flow that's all :)


Kuzey

hrgiger
08-09-2009, 03:37 PM
So the mistake was how Newtek worded everything from the start. It's not me that said the focus will be on this or that during this or that quater etc :)

I would have been happy if they worked on the whole program from the start. For example, the render engine is pretty much ready to plugin and they should have, even if the surface system or other things might not be in place to take advantage of it. At least you could have tested the one app v two app system and see if that worked well.



Well, I'm not an expert programmer or systems developer so I can only offer some conjecture over what has been my observations from what has been said publically and privately concerning CORE. Jay did say that the primary focus would be on modeling, not because modeling systems are easier necessarily, but more because modeling is at the atomic level of the system known now as CORE and thus seemed the logical place to start. And when I say start, I just mean deploy. I'm guessing that things like the renderer and animation systems for example are at different stages of development, and just have to be activated at some point during the development phase when said systems are ready to do so.
I think right now the focus is on finishing up the SDK because Newtek developers will be using the same interface as third party developers to create CORE systems. Jay assures us that as of presently, we are not falling behind schedule for a Q4 release.
But if it were Jay saying this (he's on vacation currently), he would remind everyone that everything is forward thinking and subject to change.

geothefaust
08-09-2009, 03:50 PM
Sorry, very busy on my end ATM. Sorry I couldn't get back to you quickly Paul. Thanks to HR though for coming in with the info. Much appreciated. ;)

cyatic
08-09-2009, 06:08 PM
I understand what everyone is saying. I must have not paid attention when I first read info on Core. I mean we were always directed to go to the Core page (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/). Really, on the main page it makes it seem like Core IS a full package. Going thru FAQ's there don't reveal it'll be a WIP when released. It even says "What is Lightwave CORE." It all sounds great in that description. Maybe it should say "What will Lightwvae CORE be eventually." IF someone were to just browse thru there and be an avid Lightwaver, they might just hit the "Buy Now/Join Now," button. There just seems to be a lot of confusion about CORE. I know there have been posts by Jay to try to clarify, it just seems they're not visible enough. I ususally only check the Newtek forums a few days. I might miss something and am not uninformed. Why not make important CORE news a sticky? I am waiting for the complete version to appear. I already have a few modelers.

Cyatic

Kuzey
08-10-2009, 04:52 AM
Well, I'm not an expert programmer or systems developer so I can only offer some conjecture over what has been my observations from what has been said publically and privately concerning CORE. Jay did say that the primary focus would be on modeling, not because modeling systems are easier necessarily, but more because modeling is at the atomic level of the system known now as CORE and thus seemed the logical place to start. And when I say start, I just mean deploy. I'm guessing that things like the renderer and animation systems for example are at different stages of development, and just have to be activated at some point during the development phase when said systems are ready to do so.

I know all these things and I have no problem with them. As for the render system Jay hinted that it would take little effort to activate/port to the Core. Now, the fact it hasn't, can mean it's going to see some major upgrade/reworking or like we both have said they are waiting for some other part to be ready first. Which is fine but they should state as much. Will the render system be the same as the LW9.6 or will it to see significant changes and therefore there's no point in activating it now etc.


I think right now the focus is on finishing up the SDK because Newtek developers will be using the same interface as third party developers to create CORE systems. Jay assures us that as of presently, we are not falling behind schedule for a Q4 release.
But if it were Jay saying this (he's on vacation currently), he would remind everyone that everything is forward thinking and subject to change.

I suspect that's why the Q&A with Jay hasn't been published yet, I wonder if the answers in that are still relevant :D

Thanks hrgiger for all the input :thumbsup:

btw You got me scared the other day in the Lee talks to Jay thread, I started thinking the Hardcore members were in the dark as well :hey:

There are some questions Newtek needs to answer like:

1/ Will Core1 be complete app. if not, when do they hope to make it complete...Core1.5, Core2, Core 2.5 etc. Give us a rough target date, add a safety net period of 2 years or whatever they like etc. We need to kill off the word "sometime" when talking about the Core from now on unless Newtek defines what "sometime" is.

2/ IF we are talking years before the Core is complete, will LW continue development into v10 and beyond?

3/ Has there been any new features activated since the 2nd Q and whats planned for the coming months. Be as general or detailed as you want as long as we get the impression development is moving forward. Once you nail down a feature as I said before....report it to the public and move on, this way everyone will be happy. You can do a reveal type show later on but just get the information out there now.

Newtek needs to define what is going on and be clear about it or we will be stuck in a never ending loop of craziness. It's a given that things will change in the future, you try something...it doesn't work or you get a better idea and go in a different direction.

This is all natural and welcomed, but to go dark after you said more information is coming 5 months ago....speaks volumes. Such as problems within Newtek, say a lack of communication between Jay and the PR guys or Jay and the coders...or Jay and the Hardcore members etc. etc. :hey:

Information equals progress, no information equals trouble...somewhere :hey:


Kuzey

jameswillmott
08-10-2009, 05:11 AM
1/ Will Core1 be complete app.

What is 'complete'? Is any app complete if they keep adding features to it? What do people consider necessary for 'completeness'?

Kuzey
08-10-2009, 05:28 AM
What is 'complete'? Is any app complete if they keep adding features to it? What do people consider necessary for 'completeness'?

Not requiring LW9.6 to do something that the Core can't....a standalone app, feature complete at the time of release that equals LW9.6 or better yet, surpasses it.

Model, Texture, Animate as the logo goes...I think :D

Edit: it's....Model | Animate | Render

Kuzey

cresshead
08-10-2009, 05:36 AM
development timetables slip n slide all the time..you can't say 9.30am december the 12th, just look at maya's update..that failed to meet the siggraph deadline and will probab;y arrive near xmas.

some things go quick and some slow..you can't predict 'which' though!

Kuzey
08-10-2009, 05:49 AM
development timetables slip n slide all the time..you can't say 9.30am december the 12th, just look at maya's update..that failed to meet the siggraph deadline and will probab;y arrive near xmas.

some things go quick and some slow..you can't predict 'which' though!

Yes...I know all these and we have been trough it many times with Newtek when they have put up target dates and they didn't make it.

What I'm saying is that Newtek should say something like: We hope to have LW Core complete and a full app by the end of 2010. We also add a wiggle room of another 2 years of development or more, until 2012 and beyond if needed. Please note, things don't always go as planned but we'll try to reach our target whenever possible and bring you the best product we can etc etc.

I would be very happy with that :hey:

Kuzey

stone
08-10-2009, 01:18 PM
What I'm saying is that Newtek should say something like: We hope to have LW Core complete and a full app by the end of 2010. We also add a wiggle room of another 2 years of development or more, until 2012 and beyond if needed. Please note, things don't always go as planned but we'll try to reach our target whenever possible and bring you the best product we can etc etc.

I would be very happy with that :hey:

actually that is pretty much exactly what they have said, and obviously you arnt happy with it. being even the slightest bit specific and people will complain features or deadlines werent met. damned if you do, damned if you dont.

going entirely dark is the only sensible thing. especially around users like that.

/stone

hrgiger
08-10-2009, 02:00 PM
There are some questions Newtek needs to answer like:

1/ Will Core1 be complete app. if not, when do they hope to make it complete...Core1.5, Core2, Core 2.5 etc. Give us a rough target date, add a safety net period of 2 years or whatever they like etc. We need to kill off the word "sometime" when talking about the Core from now on unless Newtek defines what "sometime" is.

2/ IF we are talking years before the Core is complete, will LW continue development into v10 and beyond?

3/ Has there been any new features activated since the 2nd Q and whats planned for the coming months. Be as general or detailed as you want as long as we get the impression development is moving forward. Once you nail down a feature as I said before....report it to the public and move on, this way everyone will be happy. You can do a reveal type show later on but just get the information out there now.

Newtek needs to define what is going on and be clear about it or we will be stuck in a never ending loop of craziness. It's a given that things will change in the future, you try something...it doesn't work or you get a better idea and go in a different direction.


Kuzey

I think I can answer most of these with a certain amout of...well, certainty because I'm pretty sure in one thread or another, they have been mentioned.

1. No, it will not be a complete app. It is already been said that CORE will be a companion to 9.6 until CORE has matured to the point of replacing most if not all of the functionality of 9.6. I can also tell you that there has been no time frame mentioned, nor is it likely that Newtek will give you one. They were burned for mentioning things that were supposed to be in the 9.x series and then never showed up. I think they've learned their lesson. I think once we get closer to release, you'll probably receive a feature list of what to expect in CORE 1.0 but dont' expect one anytime soon.

2. Unless Newtek changes their position, old Lightwave has pretty much reached the end of its road for new features or development so no LW10. It may receive additional bug fixes. It also may be altered to allow easier exchange of information with CORE. Some of the additions that never made it into the 9.x series I mentioned above were due to LW's current architecture which is exactly why CORE came about in the first place.

3. I can't really coment on this directly because Newtek has asked us not to. I will just say thought that progess is definitely being made and a lot of us see a lot of promise from CORE. But everyone has to remember that CORE is very early in its development. It has been mentioned many times that CORE will not be a complete app (comparing it to current LW). To paraphrase Jay, it will exceed Lightwave 9.6 in some areas by Q4, but fall behind in others.

Michael Lizak
08-10-2009, 03:01 PM
I pasted a post below from Bugzilla that captures the reason why I am taking a wait & see attitude on Core. I have been using LW since 2001. It is used in TV & film, but was inexpensive enough that I could justify its purchase at my company. LW has enable me to do many impressive and beautiful things, but based on past LW upgrades, and Core being at v1, I fear it's gonna hurt. I really hope I am wrong.

I'm getting ready to give up on Lightwave

I've been using Lightwave for a while now. Love the price point, the speed you can accomplish things and the new IK enhancements. But, the instability of the program is starting to get too much to bear. 3D animation takes so long to do that it's maddening to spend time modeling, texturing,rigging, animating only to have bugs in the program screw things up. Motion Mixer has become very buggy and is almost unusable. Merging a rigged character into a scene with Load Items from Scene does not work correctly. IK Booster is a mess. Game engine export is pathetic. Crashes are constant. The undo feature works for some items, but not others. The way LW handles rotations make character animation a pain.

I wonder if things are going to get better. It seems that for every step forward, there is a step back somewhere else in the software. I've started learning Blender and the rigging tools are very good. I can't believe how stable it is. In three weeks it has crashed once. Lightwave might crash 3 times in one evening's work.

I am really, really frustrated and angry right now. Is there any reason to continue with this software or is it time to move on?

Kuzey
08-10-2009, 03:07 PM
actually that is pretty much exactly what they have said, and obviously you arnt happy with it. being even the slightest bit specific and people will complain features or deadlines werent met. damned if you do, damned if you dont.

going entirely dark is the only sensible thing. especially around users like that.

/stone

please show me where that say Core will be complete program in X amount of time. There isn't any, because it's an open ended time frame at the moment. So "sometime" can mean anything up to and exceeding 20 years.

What's wrong with a general time frame, just to give us an idea of what to expect?

Kuzey

hrgiger
08-10-2009, 05:32 PM
What's wrong with a general time frame, just to give us an idea of what to expect?

Kuzey

Because if they say it will take 2 years, then they're crucified when it actually takes 3 or 4.

If they say it will take 3 or 4 years right off the bat, they they're accused of developing too slowly. If they completely went dark for 3 or 4 years and said nothing until they had a signficant release, people would move on to other software that was receiving regular updates. It's honestly a no win situation for them.

Of course, you have to consider the possibility that there is just no reliable way to determine at this early stage just how long this development will take. This is after all a new architecture, completely different then LW's current architecture, so there's really no benchmark here for Newtek to even guess how long producing a stable, feature rich environment for CORE will take.

I would agree with you though that Newtek has kind of bumbled the release of information. They said there would be more information in the coming weeks and then not too much was said after that. I really think in this area they could have been better prepared.

TeZzy
08-10-2009, 06:21 PM
Because if they say it will take 2 years, then they're crucified when it actually takes 3 or 4.


not really, take a look at how pixologic works....:D

Radiolarian
08-10-2009, 06:33 PM
True, but pixologic has been giving free upgrades all this time. I got it when it was version 1.5 and got free upgrades for 2, 3 and the upcoming ones 3.5 and 4 are going to be free upgrades as well.

hrgiger
08-10-2009, 07:01 PM
True, but pixologic has been giving free upgrades all this time. I got it when it was version 1.5 and got free upgrades for 2, 3 and the upcoming ones 3.5 and 4 are going to be free upgrades as well.

Yeah, not exactly sure how that works out for them. They must be making enough new sales to justify the free updates. But then, Up until CORE, Newtek has always given free point updates to Lightwave and sometimes pretty significant ones, especially the 9 series.

cresshead
08-10-2009, 07:21 PM
Jay's on holiday as of wednesday...looks like he's havin somewhat of a working vaccation!

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76159&d=1249952547

Amurrell
08-10-2009, 08:16 PM
Talk about doing your research :)

Kuzey
08-11-2009, 02:02 AM
Because if they say it will take 2 years, then they're crucified when it actually takes 3 or 4.

If they say it will take 3 or 4 years right off the bat, they they're accused of developing too slowly. If they completely went dark for 3 or 4 years and said nothing until they had a signficant release, people would move on to other software that was receiving regular updates. It's honestly a no win situation for them.

Of course, you have to consider the possibility that there is just no reliable way to determine at this early stage just how long this development will take. This is after all a new architecture, completely different then LW's current architecture, so there's really no benchmark here for Newtek to even guess how long producing a stable, feature rich environment for CORE will take.

I would agree with you though that Newtek has kind of bumbled the release of information. They said there would be more information in the coming weeks and then not too much was said after that. I really think in this area they could have been better prepared.


Well if you give them a solid rock date then yes people would be upset. I'm not talking about that, as I said before, I want to know when they hope to complete it. The date can be flexible just like the Mac hotfix up dates they post, having regular posts like that would give us a clue to how things are progressing, and no need for anyone to rant and rave just to get any information one can :)

Now, to say the LW 9 series is the end of the road, that tells me they hope to have the Core complete by the time a regular update would be due, say for LW10. Which is great, but not having a rough idea of the time frame also tells me that we could be using LW9.6.1 with the Core in ten years and that would benefit no one.

So, if the Core is going to take more than three or so years...one would expect to see LW continue development. For one thing, for it to be useful along side the uncompleted Core, LW would need updates anyway. Second, LW needs to be current to be useful, otherwise you might as well hook LW6.5 with the Core, because it will feel like that if it takes that long to become a stand alone app :)

Kuzey

hrgiger
08-11-2009, 02:25 AM
Now, to say the LW 9 series is the end of the road, that tells me they hope to have the Core complete by the time a regular update would be due, say for LW10. Which is great, but not having a rough idea of the time frame also tells me that we could be using LW9.6.1 with the Core in ten years and that would benefit no one.

So, if the Core is going to take more than three or so years...one would expect to see LW continue development. For one thing, for it to be useful along side the uncompleted Core, LW would need updates anyway. Second, LW needs to be current to be useful, otherwise you might as well hook LW6.5 with the Core, because it will feel like that if it takes that long to become a stand alone app :)



The truth is, I don't think anyone really knows how long Newtek (including themselves) know how long it will be before CORE will stand on it's own and not rely on 9.6 for some back and forth. I certainly don't see it being anywhere near 10 years though...

What we do know is that the CORE environment is radically different then the current model and that some interchange of information may not be possible. We've seen already that CORE will handle more data then 9.6 is possible of (such as geometry). Take the public posting that Jay made earlier this year where he showed CORE with 56 million polygons on his laptop. I don't know about you but I've had trouble doing much in current LW with anything more then a few million polygons. Some things just can't be improved in current lightwave due to its existing architecture which is why Newtek has started over with a new framework.

No, I'm pretty sure that they won't be improving Lightwave with any new features and that the focus is now on developing CORE. As I mentioned, there may be some bug fixes or efforts to allow better exchange of info with CORE, but that's about it.

Keadil
08-11-2009, 03:13 AM
I'm assuming that LW Core will be very capable of standing on its own as a standalone app, but it might take a little while. From what we've heard so far, it might not have as many features as 9.6 at launch but I think that it will be up to par pretty quickly. I would like to hear more about Core since I'm still on the fence about it, but so far, info is limited. Personally, I would like a demo version to play with at least, but with launch coming soon I think it will be just around the corner.

colkai
08-11-2009, 03:39 AM
Jay has pretty much made it plain, LW9.6 is where LW ends in it's current / old form.
There may be the odd bug fix, but don't expect a LW9.7 or a LW10.0 - not gonna happen.

CORE and it's 'tied' version of LW will be the next phase I reckon until CORE can stand alone, as hrgiger has said. Newtek are not going to waste time adding stuff to the old code model when they are trying to move away from it.

Also, I can just see it, "well this is just another bolt-on, I thought they were re-writing LW and LW9.8 is just the same old code". :p ;)

Nope, gotta cut those strings and move on.

Kuzey
08-11-2009, 03:56 AM
Jay has pretty much made it plain, LW9.6 is where LW ends in it's current / old form.
There may be the odd bug fix, but don't expect a LW9.7 or a LW10.0 - not gonna happen.

CORE and it's 'tied' version of LW will be the next phase I reckon until CORE can stand alone, as hrgiger has said. Newtek are not going to waste time adding stuff to the old code model when they are trying to move away from it.

Also, I can just see it, "well this is just another bolt-on, I thought they were re-writing LW and LW9.8 is just the same old code". :p ;)

Nope, gotta cut those strings and move on.

That's true, I want them to not be working on old LW as soon as possible also :)

The problem is you'll find yourself between a rock and a wall if it takes longer to get Core complete. There has to be a plan B, to make sure that old LW works well with the new Core, so I expect they'll push it with 9.6.1,9.6.2 etc. and not call it LW10 etc.

Btw. I don't expect it to take 10 years to get Core to be complete, more like version 2 or 3. But the problem is there is no information that's not months old..even the ones people keep quoting :)

Kuzey

Lewis
08-11-2009, 04:52 AM
I'd prefer if NT didn't even show any glimpse of CORE to public if it wasn't fully ready (older users surely remember LW 5.5 when he come out as a great surprise without rings and bells months before) but since economy is rough nowdays i fully understand why they needed to show start of CORE for their user base and get some users for testing and working out with them in process of making great SW (HC members which got discount for prepaid to CORE).

Yes i agree they should show more info to outside world now when they got out of secret DEVeleoping but it's their business so i hope they know what they are doing by not updating CORE pages with new info.

Nemoid
08-11-2009, 07:00 AM
well, my 2 cents here.

We have to understand, that with CORE Newtek is actually rewriting Lw from the ground up, with a new structure and capabilities, as its clearly stated even if faq tech. This is huge work.:thumbsup:

So, its clear that CORE 1.0 will not able to replace Lw 9.6 since the start.
Juat not possible into a tight timeframe line one year of development.

It will focus mainly into modelling tools and something more..Jay stated this clearly so i really don't understand there's people thinking CORE 1.0 will be a replacement for Lw.

CORE, in general, eventually will be a Lw replacement, we don't exactly know when, and from a development POV Nt either can't know this with enough precision, because development is not an exact science.They can have an idea of an estimated timeframe (optimistically speaking, could be 2, 3 years for example).

So, Core will surely be, for a certain period, bundled with Lw 9.6, or better, 9.x versions capable of intechange datas with it, in a way that users will be able to exploit every feature CORE will offer that goes beyod what Lw 9.x can offer now.

So for example: Modeling tools in CORE will be better and offer more flexibility for modelling purposes(as shown yet in vids) and Lw 9.x will be able to work with models coming from CORE into a good way, and this will be valid for other compartements as development goes ahead.

So, as time passes, CORE will gradually replace and extend what Lw 9.x will offer, untill it will be able to stand on its own and users will be able to get rid of old Lw 9.x and work only with CORE, as the new, integrated and rewritten incarnation of Lw.

As for what concerns infos and such, i agree with the fact Newtek should release from time to time at least a sort of report of things in development, regarding CORE, in a way that non CORE users could be updated a bit regarding "how things are going". This could be made form time to time , with the newsletter, and may be with some little vid. I think uses will enjoy this.

I also think that we will know something more, when CORE 1.0 will be released, because Nt will be forced to reveal at least part of their plan for the future, and unveil what CORE 1.0 is, and what CORE will be in the future.
So no real problems Q4 is not that far, and Lw 9.6 is here however.

Finally, even if i am not in HC forums, because in this period i have no money to invest in new apps, I have to say that HC forums idea is a good one, because it allows Newtek to shape CORE better to fit users needs. This is HC main purpose.
So i encourage everyone which suscribed to be very vocal with suggestions, examples and inspiratiosn from other apps, to make sure the toolset and workflow of CORE will be good and productive. :thumbsup:

UnCommonGrafx
08-11-2009, 08:29 AM
Nemoid, you make some great points. You, too, Lewis.
They should release NOTHING of an undone product to the public. Those that were interested in the process were asked to pony up for the privilege; those that didn't think the info and process were of worth also, as I see it, passed up on getting info on the process with the explicit point being: I'll wait until it's done.
So, the only news I can see as being entitled to the general public is the one that says, "Done!". All other bits would be gratuitous.

cyatic
08-11-2009, 06:02 PM
I'm assuming that LW Core will be very capable of standing on its own as a standalone app, but it might take a little while. From what we've heard so far, it might not have as many features as 9.6 at launch but I think that it will be up to par pretty quickly. I would like to hear more about Core since I'm still on the fence about it, but so far, info is limited. Personally, I would like a demo version to play with at least, but with launch coming soon I think it will be just around the corner.

There is a Demo, a $500 demo available right now.

Cyatic

cyatic
08-11-2009, 06:06 PM
Jay has pretty much made it plain, LW9.6 is where LW ends in it's current / old form.
There may be the odd bug fix, but don't expect a LW9.7 or a LW10.0 - not gonna happen.

CORE and it's 'tied' version of LW will be the next phase I reckon until CORE can stand alone, as hrgiger has said. Newtek are not going to waste time adding stuff to the old code model when they are trying to move away from it.

Also, I can just see it, "well this is just another bolt-on, I thought they were re-writing LW and LW9.8 is just the same old code". :p ;)

Nope, gotta cut those strings and move on.


I know what you're saying and am all for it. The only thing I'm not for is buying in for an incomplete version. Why not release it when it's done? It feels like we're jumping on a "Modo," train. What version are they on? I think it has animation, but limited. I just don't what to be upgrading every year just to get a little bit more of the Core.

Cyatic

hrgiger
08-11-2009, 06:33 PM
I know what you're saying and am all for it. The only thing I'm not for is buying in for an incomplete version. Why not release it when it's done? It feels like we're jumping on a "Modo," train. What version are they on? I think it has animation, but limited. I just don't what to be upgrading every year just to get a little bit more of the Core.

Cyatic

But you don't have to. Keep using 9.6 and buy CORE when it has the features that you require. 9.6 was made more robust because Newtek knew that it would work alongside CORE for near future. Jay has already stated that some people should wait for a feature list before they decide to buy in.
CORE is not at all taking the path that Modo has taken. It only appears that way because the first release of CORE seems to have focus on the modeling side which seems to be why people draw that analogy. Modo was pretty much a modeler from the start and they've been adding features and functionality on top of that since. CORE on the other hand is a unified 3D environment. Of course, a lot of the program from the first release will be 'under the hood' but the whole idea of CORE is total access. It will at its heart have a node graph based system where any attribute from one node can drive the attribute of another node.
I am a Modo 401 user. Modo is a great program that has a lot of enjoyable tools and workflows, in fact, I'd love to see some of them in Lightwave CORE/9.6. I just wonder sometimes about the architecture behind it. With some of it's similarities to old LW (due in large part to the fact that it was created by the same people), I can't help but wonder if it won't ultimately end up requiring a rewrite at some point as well.

cyatic
08-11-2009, 07:12 PM
But you don't have to. Keep using 9.6 and buy CORE when it has the features that you require. 9.6 was made more robust because Newtek knew that it would work alongside CORE for near future. Jay has already stated that some people should wait for a feature list before they decide to buy in.
CORE is not at all taking the path that Modo has taken. It only appears that way because the first release of CORE seems to have focus on the modeling side which seems to be why people draw that analogy. Modo was pretty much a modeler from the start and they've been adding features and functionality on top of that since. CORE on the other hand is a unified 3D environment. Of course, a lot of the program from the first release will be 'under the hood' but the whole idea of CORE is total access. It will at its heart have a node graph based system where any attribute from one node can drive the attribute of another node.
I am a Modo 401 user. Modo is a great program that has a lot of enjoyable tools and workflows, in fact, I'd love to see some of them in Lightwave CORE/9.6. I just wonder sometimes about the architecture behind it. With some of it's similarities to old LW (due in large part to the fact that it was created by the same people), I can't help but wonder if it won't ultimately end up requiring a rewrite at some point as well.

I understand what you're saying. I'm still supporting Newtek, unfortunately I won't be upgrading until CORE is fully functional. I don't want to see people jump ship. I think the time is pretty ripe for Newtek to knock the socks off the industry. With the economy the way it is, the price of Lightwave is good. A fully functional CORE as soon as possible would be able to do very well. I don't know about programming. Is there really one guy programming each section? I'm not saying rush it, but maybe hiring more quality programmers would help speed up development. I like Lightwave and will upgrade to CORE (finished version). I understand there will always be bugs. I just want to model, rig, animate, texture, and render. Anyway, good luck to Newtek, Hardcore members: do the best you can to make our app the best it can be.

Cyatic

jaxtone
08-11-2009, 07:15 PM
Since Modo is mentioned I just have to add this.

I guess everyone fanboy of LW that have bullied Modo for itīs "model only features" now will have some trouble in excusing CORE for only adding model features as well... at least in the beginning.

hrgiger
08-11-2009, 07:32 PM
I guess everyone fanboy of LW that have bullied Modo for itīs "model only features" now will have some trouble in excusing CORE for only adding model features as well... at least in the beginning.

Not if they understand the difference between the two programs. And just to re-iterate a point, CORE won't be just a modeler when it's released.

Cageman
08-11-2009, 08:51 PM
Since Modo is mentioned I just have to add this.

I guess everyone fanboy of LW that have bullied Modo for itīs "model only features" now will have some trouble in excusing CORE for only adding model features as well... at least in the beginning.

Well... not really, since CORE + a new version of LW9.6 will be bundled with the price so that you actually get tools that can do it all.

shrox
08-11-2009, 09:00 PM
Hey, at least we don't have to clean airbrushes and move stat cameras anymore...

Nemoid
08-12-2009, 04:22 AM
I do agree with Hrgiger. CORE starts with modelling, because projecting a good 3D app, is the area to start with.
CORE has history and modifier stack, and modelling tools are connected to this workflow, and so will be all other tools will be introduced.
So, there can be some analogies with Modo, as well, like in the case of construction plane, but fact is a software house can be inspired from every other app out there, and offer features to allow a great and
straightforward workflow.
Even Modo, in this field has room to improve, for example; XSI has the possibility to hit a key for a tool, and keep selecting and tool remains active. change your selection , the tool remains active. In Modo, there's select through functin but for some reason it doesn't work SO well with all the tools.

What users need are real time, interactive tools, and a visual approach, focused on the model they see in their viewport.

Gradually, i think CORE will add more features and those, will be connected with its structure, which is different from Modo one and from Lw one too.

Lw old style and old structure, is finished, because this old structure and code is a real bottleneck which obstacles Newtek to offer all the features other modern apps have since ages, and new ones too.

The point is CORE will substitute it, gradually.
So, Lw.x will be updated a bit to work better especially with CORE and for a certain period (which i hope will be not so long) users will work in this fashion :
Lw.x and CORE together offerring a complete toolset. Then, Lw.x will be progressively abandoned to its fate.
Otherwise they will keep working with Lw 9.6, which will be abandoned however at a certain point.

jaxtone
08-12-2009, 06:12 AM
I was just kidding a little and admit that sometimes your laugh doesnīt reach all them rabbitholes... :D... As you know I am pretty much an ignorant when it comes to technical issues, "thank god for that"... but this is also a way to look at it:

"Earlier almost all skilled users in the LW jungle have vomited over a two part solution for Layout and Modeler but by following the latest information about CORE it looks like it all will end up in a three part solution where CORE is added on top of earlier dissatisfactions."

Get me right here, I am looking forward to all CORE "will" be able to achieve in the future, just think itīs an old story when a good guessing game surpasses hard facts.


Well... not really, since CORE + a new version of LW9.6 will be bundled with the price so that you actually get tools that can do it all.


Not if they understand the difference between the two programs. And just to re-iterate a point, CORE won't be just a modeler when it's released.

jaxtone
08-12-2009, 06:20 AM
I refused to do a car job for $5000 a couple of months ago. Not becuase I didnīt need the money. But mostly beacause I didnīt wanna start all over again doing them mask jobs. If you been there you know how it is, after a short while you take the mask off since it becomes so hot and steamy working with it on your face.

After a couple of hours solution like thinner etc. damage your mind totally, and suddenly you walk around like a stoned dingo with a painting the guy doesnīt expect to excist on his big nice truck. Flower Power instead of naked chicks? Artistical freedom or an intoxicated brain?

Well I go for the last option, rather poor and healthy than rich and stoned!


Hey, at least we don't have to clean airbrushes and move stat cameras anymore...

G-Man
08-12-2009, 11:51 AM
I, like many people, am anxious for CORE but I have told myself that I haven't even begun to get proficient in many parts of the current Lightwave 9.6. Lightwave has some cobwebs in the corners, but the program still works exceptionally well. Of all the people who are begging for CORE, I bet most of them still don't know how to utilize the program to its fullest.

*Pete*
08-12-2009, 12:39 PM
Lw old style and old structure, is finished, because this old structure and code is a real bottleneck which obstacles Newtek to offer all the features other modern apps have since ages, and new ones too.


exactly...im in the HC, and balancing between what i can or should say without breaking the NDA is hard, so forgive me for sounding unprecise...

is CORE going to be a modeller?...well, yes, for starters it will, what other things it will be able to do by the time it is released as CORE 1.0 is unknown...but none of it is really important.

even if CORE modeller would exactly mimic LW modeller, even if it would have only a quarter of the features and functions of LW modeller, it really would not matter.

this becouse CORE is a totally, from the scratch, new application...all the things we wanted from LW but couldnt get, we will be able to get, all the things we wanted from other applications, we will propably be able to get...what i seen of CORE as an 3D application has not been all too amazing (other than the massive speed improvement) becouse most of it is just the same old...how many new different and amazing ways can there be to make a box?, to subdivide?...to cut and paste, to do booleans?...how many different ways can there be to modell in CORE than in LW?

not so many....but what i can tell you has impressed me enourmously, is the openly visible potential of CORE, CORE will potentially be everything you want it to be...but at the moment, it is not.

and untill NT gets to the point where some of the visible potential in it is somewhat refined and improved upon...then i think CORE is not ready to be shown to the masses.
but to show the "new and amazing methods of bevelling" in CORE will propably be only for those specially intrested in it....most of you/us want to see where CORE is headed and what it will be able to do when it is done...


so, patience guys and girl (i assume atleast one girl might be reading)...wait for a moment more, do not join CORE out of curiousity or temptation, just hang on for a moment more and im sure NT will come with some kind of info that will help you decide if CORE is worth getting into at this time of development...

dballesg
08-12-2009, 01:03 PM
Of all the people who are begging for CORE, I bet most of them still don't know how to utilize the program to its fullest.

You will lose that bet on a blink!!!

G-Man
08-12-2009, 09:44 PM
You will lose that bet on a blink!!!

I don't think so, the people who aren't absolutely yelling about the new version are professionals who are busy making a living with the software. Yeah, everyone wants a new and improved Lightwave, but yelling to Newtek isn't going to make it go any faster.

Kuzey
08-12-2009, 11:29 PM
well, my 2 cents here.

We have to understand, that with CORE Newtek is actually rewriting Lw from the ground up, with a new structure and capabilities, as its clearly stated even if faq tech. This is huge work.:thumbsup:

We don't need to understand it as we already know it, it's a known quantity. It's like posting all the time that we as humans need to eat, sleep etc. to live. We know this and there is no need to state or restate it. :hey:



So, its clear that CORE 1.0 will not able to replace Lw 9.6 since the start.
Juat not possible into a tight timeframe line one year of development.

It will focus mainly into modelling tools and something more..Jay stated this clearly so i really don't understand there's people thinking CORE 1.0 will be a replacement for Lw.

CORE, in general, eventually will be a Lw replacement, we don't exactly know when, and from a development POV Nt either can't know this with enough precision, because development is not an exact science.They can have an idea of an estimated timeframe (optimistically speaking, could be 2, 3 years for example).

Are you sure about that, sounds like you have 1Q mixed up with the first full year. We have been through this before and I believe the the focus would be on something different each quarter as new things get activated. However, if you happen be right....that the full year focus is modelling tools, then it will take at least 10 years for the Core to be a full program. One more year for CA tools, another year for an animation system etc.

:D

Kuzey

Kuzey
08-12-2009, 11:39 PM
I don't think so, the people who aren't absolutely yelling about the new version are professionals who are busy making a living with the software. Yeah, everyone wants a new and improved Lightwave, but yelling to Newtek isn't going to make it go any faster.

Who is yelling at Newtek and who is trying to make the development go faster ???

Asking for information about the progress of the Core, which was promised by the way...is not yelling or wanting the Core completed yesterday. I'm not sure what thread you are following but something is a miss :hey:

Kuzey

G-Man
08-13-2009, 07:49 AM
They just gave a demonstration on the progress of CORE in the recent webcast. It wasn't a whole lot but I think that's just where they are at. It's going to be a while.

Kuzey
08-13-2009, 08:13 AM
You aren't talking about Jay being interviewed by Lee a few weeks ago, by any chance?

That thread ended with Jay saying it was not a Core show when I mentioned the lack of Core information...even though it was billed as Jay talks about LW and Core.

The funny thing, I was expecting it to be a small teaser for more information and video demos later on. It didn't have to be much, just something like : we just activated new features/tools at the start of 2Q and/or the progress of the Core is well on track etc. Stayed tuned....in the coming weeks more detailed updates will follow and we might even throw in a video demo or two...don't miss it etc.

Simple stuff really :D

Kuzey

G-Man
08-13-2009, 08:43 AM
The update on CORE is at the end of this...
http://demo.newtek.com/archive.php?recordID=4

Kuzey
08-13-2009, 01:44 PM
Ah I see, that's the one I haven't seen :)

Unfortunately, I'm away visiting family and don't want to waste a cousins bandwidth to watch a video. But if you care to post the general idea of what was said and who said it....I would be very grateful.:thumbsup:


Kuzey

G-Man
08-13-2009, 02:16 PM
Mostly showing off the interface and the way it's customizable. Also shows off instancing. Shows off the modifier stack and how it's non-destructive, example would be to create some active text, extrude it, twist it, bend it etc. Then you could go to the top of the stack and retype the word and all of the transformations would still be active.

Kuzey
08-13-2009, 02:25 PM
Sounds similar to the first Core reveal video they did before the beta began. I'll have to watch it when I get back home...thanks for that :thumbsup:

Kuzey

GandB
08-13-2009, 08:53 PM
I watched the video, and I have to say that I'm really digging the new Interface look a lot. Everything seems much more consolidated (I know not everything's in place yet) and efficient. I am also one of those "icon lovers"; though I like the icon/text buttons the best. The color scheme is also very nice; though the model was a bit hard to see at times...I imagine that will be a WIP as well. The ability to customize the layout of the interface is very nice as well (especially the ease of doing so).

Looking forward to trying out the demo when it comes along!

-Keith

animotion
08-14-2009, 12:27 AM
So the mistake was how Newtek worded everything from the start. It's not me that said the focus will be on this or that during this or that quater etc :)

I would have been happy if they worked on the whole program from the start. For example, the render engine is pretty much ready to plugin and they should have, even if the surface system or other things might not be in place to take advantage of it. At least you could have tested the one app v two app system and see if that worked well.

Newtek said what they did as far as information goes and they should sick to it, let the information flow that's all :)


Kuzey


Its very simple, Core members paid for the privileges that non members are asking for here. Anyone that has not paid for the membership will not have free access. Either join or wait.

hrgiger
08-14-2009, 04:23 AM
Its very simple, Core members paid for the privileges that non members are asking for here. Anyone that has not paid for the membership will not have free access. Either join or wait.

In the reveal video, Jay did mention that more information/videos would be available(publically) about lighting, surfacing, rendering and animation. But we really haven't seen much except for a few screenshots and a few videos that don't cover any of the above topics.
So I find Kuzeys posts reasonable.

Kuzey
08-14-2009, 05:36 AM
Its very simple, Core members paid for the privileges that non members are asking for here. Anyone that has not paid for the membership will not have free access. Either join or wait.

Wow.....where is that coming from, it's like some people are reading a completely different thread or something :hey:

In all my posts...I have not made things up, or dreamed them up. I'm just asking for what was promised...so please don't read between lines, you are not good at it :hey:

It is very simple indeed.....keep the info flowing as Newtek promised they would and you don't waste everyone's time.

No information means there is trouble somewhere, it's that basic. For example, the Q&A with Jay that was supposed to be published 6 months ago....I bet it isn't even relevant anymore, with the major changes in direction that might have taken place during that time etc. However, no one from Newtek made a correction post about it, they just ignore it as if it doesn't exist :phone_cal:newtek::help:

Jay already said the interview with Lee wasn't a Core show but it was billed as such, well..it did mention the Core as one of the topics to be discussed and read my earlier post on that. That to me shows there is a communication breakdown between Jay and the PR guys....by the time they finalize a press release/public update, Jay might think the information isn't relevant and it gets delayed etc.

That's why a Core version of the LW 9.6 Hotfix updates we get in the Mac forum is the best way to get information out there. The next update/post supersedes the last one and it can be as vague or detailed as they like it. The most important part is the information gets out there on a regular basis.


Kuzey

GandB
08-14-2009, 06:25 AM
Yep; I too remember being told that we'd have more information in a few weeks (maybe we have different ideas as to what a "few weeks" is...lol), after they first started talking publicly about Core (after that release "debacle"). Would be nice to know more; however, I do like what I've seen in the tail end of that webinar!

-Keith

Kuzey
08-14-2009, 07:54 AM
I don't think the Hardcore members would be upset with information getting to the public....after all, they get to use it and debate features etc. that the public won't. Also, they knew before joining Hardcore that information was supposed to get to the public eventually :D

The public can get the details after the "cool features" have been locked in. Maybe, even get clues to what's coming up next etc. but not in too much detail...that's all I'm asking. Oh yes and defining what "sometime" is in terms of completeness of the Core would be good too.


Kuzey

hrgiger
08-14-2009, 11:52 AM
No information means there is trouble somewhere, it's that basic.


As much as I agree that more information should be available, I don't believe that the lack of information has anything to do with trouble. I think it has a lot to do with the stage of development they are in currently. Can't say much more on that presently. But I expect that there will be more information shared in the next few months or so. That's not coming from Newtek though so don't take it as an assurance.

robertoortiz
08-14-2009, 12:05 PM
As much as I agree that more information should be available, I don't believe that the lack of information has anything to do with trouble. I think it has a lot to do with the stage of development they are in currently. Can't say much more on that presently. But I expect that there will be more information shared in the next few months or so. That's not coming from Newtek though so don't take it as an assurance.


I second this sentiment...
As part of the Beta program I assure all that there have been significant updates, on our side of the fence. I can say that I am VERY happy with the direction LW development has taken.
I am sure that more updates for the general public will be forthcoming.

GandB
08-14-2009, 12:47 PM
I am sure that more updates for the general public will be forthcoming.
That's funny; that's exactly what NewTek said a few months back.:thumbsup:

robertoortiz
08-14-2009, 12:54 PM
let me put it his way..
Yes the updates have been coming on the Core forum, and the reaction has been quite positive.
The people who wanted to be part of the development process paid for it, and honestly in my humble opinion it was worth it.

The only thing I would advice then is to wait a little. What I can say about what we have seen first hand is that the program is being developed as I write this, and it looks good.

More infor will be coming soon anyway since the first official release of the product will be done at the end of the year.

-R

GandB
08-14-2009, 01:03 PM
It's pointless to even bother going back and forth about this; NT's not going to change its mind anyways. Meanwhile people will get tired of waiting and move on; but, as they've said before, "if that's what you need to do, then do it". Personally not the way I'd go about keeping the LW crowd intact, but whatever.

-Keith

Kuzey
08-14-2009, 01:20 PM
As much as I agree that more information should be available, I don't believe that the lack of information has anything to do with trouble. I think it has a lot to do with the stage of development they are in currently. Can't say much more on that presently. But I expect that there will be more information shared in the next few months or so. That's not coming from Newtek though so don't take it as an assurance.

I do hope so :)

it's more the little things like the Jay interview and that Jay Q&A. It all adds up to a sense of tension, maybe it's just the lack of communication or the ever changing Core, for Newtek to commit to anything on paper as far as information goes.

@Oliver... I had a response but it's on my computer and I'll post it tomorrow. :)


Kuzey

Kuzey
08-14-2009, 01:32 PM
It's pointless to even bother going back and forth about this; NT's not going to change its mind anyways. Meanwhile people will get tired of waiting and move on; but, as they've said before, "if that's what you need to do, then do it". Personally not the way I'd go about keeping the LW crowd intact, but whatever.

-Keith

Well, as far as I know Newtek hasn't changed it's mind, they said more info will come. I haven't heard anything different from Newtek :)

Kuzey

GandB
08-14-2009, 01:50 PM
Maybe they meant more info will come when they release version 1? ;)

Kuzey
08-14-2009, 02:14 PM
Maybe they meant more info will come when they release version 1? ;)

Haha....let's hope not :D

I'm sure they will come through well before then.

Kuzey

Cageman
08-14-2009, 03:54 PM
Let me put it this way...

There have been some discussion about CORE and the general public (in HC that is), and NT have presented some ideas about updates for those outside HC, but so far nothing have come to frutation. As always, there are people for and against, sort of.

Anyhow.... I also have seen and toyed with stuff that, honestly speaking, even a screenshot of that would give you guys alot of answers and hope, but NT are being catious for obvious reasons; after all.. they are "doomed" no matter what they do (you know, users... *****slapping them and whatnot for doing A but not B etc).

We have to thank all those people about that, after all... there was a time when NT actually showed roadmaps and plans... but no longer... and I totaly understand why....

Thankfully, that is not the case in HC... not to that level, at least...

:)

Waves of light
08-14-2009, 04:24 PM
I'm very lucky to be part of HardCore (my company purchased a copy of LW and I was eligible for CORE). Also, I can totally understand that in this current financial period HardCore is a lot of money for people.

All I can say is that the what is currently being developed by NT is going to blow a lot of people away, and being part of HardCore not only allows you to be part of that development, it also allows you to get a head start on the methods, workflow, etc. involved with using a new product.

mav3rick
08-14-2009, 04:47 PM
I don't think the Hardcore members would be upset with information getting to the public....

well depends how often and how much of things will be reveal.... i think newtek learned something from core reveal.

jwiede
08-15-2009, 02:22 AM
Many tools have particle systems - does core need a particle system to be feature complete? Maya has fluids, does core need that too? I's say hellyeswantwantwantgimmegimmenow (in a excited, gibberish kind of way). max and C4D don't have that (plugs don't count), still they are considered feature complete.
A quick correction: C4D includes a particle simulation package in their core package, it just doesn't have all the nodal controls that come with their Thinking Particles component. That said, it's quite adequate for many needs.

I think there's a bit of difference between offering packages that have different sets of components, and that point where the additions are just "plugins". Maya Unlimited is more than just "Maya Complete + plugs", IMO, and likewise, C4D Studio is more than just "C4D + plugs". It's all about how well those additional components are integrated into the system. In the case of (many of) the Maya and C4D components included in their higher packages, they're integrated so fundamentally, they're indistinguishable from core features.

Of course, the landscape is a little different in thoroughly nodal architectures (I put Maya and C4D in that class), where the vast majority of the system is SDK-accessible. Given enough effort, any plugin can achieve "first-class feature" integration. Part of what makes CORE appealing is that it'll finally offer that kind of access to LW plugin developers.

One of the things which concerns me the most is how much value CORE can offer in that regard while still tied to existing LW for key pipeline elements. As a hypothetical case, much of the value of having animatable modeling tools would disappear (IMO) if you were limited to rendering only what Layout can load. I'm concerned that Newtek might consider "freeze everything and send it to Layout"-type solutions adequate integration for V1. I don't think most users will buy into that, even as a V1 answer, because it just doesn't offer enough value over what we have today.

Kuzey
08-15-2009, 02:34 AM
well depends how often and how much of things will be reveal.... i think newtek learned something from core reveal.

Once, twice a month for text updates, with video demos at the end of each quarter, maybe with a hint of what's next....thrown in for good measure :)

They can keep it general. Anyway, there is a difference between knowing the same thing and being able to test the features in practice :hey:


Kuzey

Kuzey
08-15-2009, 03:32 AM
The cool features in core are the unified workspace for Wavers and the workflow adaptability and probably some hub-like goodness for users of other software - by giving out a modern toolset with a wide-reaching SDK. That's what it says on the core webpages. So how do you show that off? Not at all. And since the goal is still a "feature complete" app, I'd want my basics right first! ZSpheres2? Not happening. Knowing that people could build ZSphere2 like tools? Cool, but how to show off now? I too would love a video where they rebuild a current "wow-tool", just to prove it's in core's reach. But I know that I have to wait... especially for "feature completeness". So when will core be "feature complete"?
Hold your breath, I got an answer:

(not very impressive jingle)

Newtek does not know. And in the end there is the danger they'd define "feature complete" in marketing lingo. So it would be feature complete when you can model a box, make a few keyframes, and render it. "model, animate, render" - Congratulations, you asked for it. Is that feature complete? Nobody knows what feature complete means. Or better: everybody has a different point of view about it.
I guess I can use it standing alone earlier than others, since I mostly do motion graphics that don't need complex models, skinning, weighting, and so on - and thus I can assume that to perform CA the stuff I use needs to be in before. If core would not be able to do CA in v1.0, it's still possible that I could say goodbye to LW9.6. And please notice the "would" - I don't know if core will have CA tools. I somehow doubt it will not have any, but that's my personal opinion, that's also based on the assumption that core will not be released by december 31, 2009. Which would be fine by me.

Many tools have particle systems - does core need a particle system to be feature complete? Maya has fluids, does core need that too? I's say hellyeswantwantwantgimmegimmenow (in a excited, gibberish kind of way). max and C4D don't have that (plugs don't count), still they are considered feature complete. The "core package" will always be feature complete, it already is, with LW9.6. I know this feels like cheating, but Newtek sees it that way.

On the other hand Newtek can account on a great community, which means if they release a great SDK the package will develop faster (doubt it will be slower) than they can foresee anyway. The nodal base makes it hard to tell, too. Guess you'll be able to build and adapt your own tools. So if you can do this with a few clicks, can Newtek sell core as feature complete, if some tools are not delivered by them "right out of the box"? Just stop asking about that. No joy will come from asking this - not now, not ever.

Another observation: core is the next thing for Newtek. I would not hold my breath on remarkable updates on the old LW. No GoZ, no nothing. It's not worth the trouble. Let them focus their energy on core, and do the extra clicks by hand. If you don't want to do that, switch to a different application. It's the right thing to do for Newtek, they don't have the workforce, and switching back and forth will just result in slowdowns on both fronts. I would not want that. Sorry.
Those who want to cling to 9.6, don't want to move on to core if it is not 9.7/10, change to something else. Don't quite get the reasoning, since Maya will not be closer to 9.6 than core. Doing it for job reasons - yeah, cool. I'd advise to learn Maya, SI or max anyway. Because somehow I think LW10 would not have changed the job market either. But at least Newtek is forced by the core members to adapt to the old LW behaviours (as far as possible).

But what do I know? I'm only a core beta member, it's not that they tell us how far the single areas are progressing, or how good some can be developed independently - some of the information I was hoping to get access to by joining the core beta. Guess some elements need heavy adjustment when being introduced to the final core, others will fit in nicely. And about features being "locked" - when something new get's introduced, this will affect the stuff put in before at this basic stages. And the more care they take of this now, the more fluent it will feel later. But this way there is no "showing of completed stuff". Of course they pretend that everything is happy sunshine in the core beta program, which is something I really don't get. As said before: We know not enough, because Newtek does not tell us enough because in many cases they can not tell us more - they don't know themselves. Where should they know it from? It is not possible. Hey, I want to program a next-generation computer graphics application, want it by the end of next month? Sure, will see what I can do.... Nonsense. That's basically what they try to tell us, and I hate that. They pretend to be more confident than they are, which everybody can see, thus they come across dishonest. "We don't know! Funk off!" So hard to say. :)



By "feature complete" I mean it should be at least as capable or as complete as 9.6 and I know it won't come at the end of the year with Core1. I think it'll take a few versions at the very least, for it to be so complete....that it doesn't require 9.6 to get things done. I also know it won't be the same way of doing things...which is good and hope there isn't 5 different way of extruding polygons like in old LW etc. The Core will bring a different work flow with new tools etc. and I'm sure it'll be a thousand times better than the old way of doing stuff :D

Newtek might not know exactly when they'll reach a stage when 9.6 isn't needed but they should have a plan, a target zone. It's no use starting something that is open ended, otherwise it could take decades just to get rid of 9.6. No one wants that, but if they are looking at years (5 or more) then LW 9.6 needs to be updated to be able to work with the Core and that slows the development of the Core itself. Giving a rough time line would help things, otherwise people will complain as to why Core 1,2,3 etc. aren't complete yet :hey:

We also know that Newtek developed/planned parts of the Core for 3 years or so before the beta started. That would mean parts of it are there but not activated yet. There will be over lap period when locked/completed features will require retesting as new stuff comes in to make sure they play nice before moving on. That's all fine and is expected...no problems there.

How to show off such features...I don't really care. It's enough for me for them to post a thread stating that they completed work on the audio system and activated the render engine etc...check the Mac hot fix posts in the Mac section for an example of what I'm talking about. The video demos can come at a later time...no fuss from me there.

The first aim of Newtek should be to get rid of 9.6 as soon as possible while cramming/updating as many new tools as they can. Once 9.6+ is gone, then the really great stage of development can truly begin :D

Kuzey

cyatic
08-16-2009, 08:03 PM
I'm very lucky to be part of HardCore (my company purchased a copy of LW and I was eligible for CORE). Also, I can totally understand that in this current financial period HardCore is a lot of money for people.

All I can say is that the what is currently being developed by NT is going to blow a lot of people away, and being part of HardCore not only allows you to be part of that development, it also allows you to get a head start on the methods, workflow, etc. involved with using a new product.

I think you ARE lucky. Lot's of people here have to purchase it themselves. I think that is why many here are asking for any bit of info before putting down some money for Core, which won't be "complete." I know we'll be able to suppliment it with LW 9.6, but some of us don't have the funds to pay $500 for a modeler. Why not just get ZBrush and use that in tandem with 9.6 until Core is really alive? Newtek is not instilling confidence in the users minds. A botched reveal, months of silence (unless you paid), and users knowing upon release that Core will need a crutch known as LW 9.6. I think if Newtek gave a little more info and then dropped the upgrade price back down for a limited time, I think sales would be boosted and there would be a little more confidence.

I understand Core is going to blow everyone away. But I wonder if it's just excitement talking here. It's like Eddie Murphy said, "If you're starving and somebody throws you a cracker, you'll think that's the best darn cracker you ever had." It'd be great if Newtek threw US a cracker.:gotpics: Question. Methods and workflow? Wouldn't the workflow be to model in Core and do everything else in 9.6?:devil:

Like I said before, I hope everything works out for Newtek, but I might have to wait a little longer before commiting.

Nemoid
08-22-2009, 12:51 AM
Maybe it can sound obvious, but i think that with Harcore Newtek has made some sort of bet with its users.
They needed money, after many free upgrades, and also thought to use the same process they adopted for open beta and that lead to quite good results with 9.x series.

Since they are developing a new tool from scratch, the main point is actually how modern, programmable and flexible this tool is at its base. This alone, brings a bright future, because it will always lead to add seamlessly new great tools inside this system.
So, it's very important that the foundation of the app as a whole system is well made.

its quite like an XSI, or even Maya analogy. Those 2 apps, have a strong core and they are very good as a system, in general. This, allowed the possibility to make them grow in time exponentially, even if they weren't great at first release as toolset, they were as for their core, structure, opennes and flexibility.

This is the main point of CORE, IMO.

Another thing i noticed is they'll very probably rely onto
completement of the SDK for 2 reasons:

1) they will be able to introduce new tools faster.
2) third party developers will be able to leverage this SDK and so to develop what's in the app further - and this will be integrated well within CORE, since the SDK is the same Newtek uses.


i'm not particularly fond of method 2 since my fear is that the app would rely just too much onto plugings and external developed tools. This could cause some loose of control from Newtek about the philosophy and workflow they would like to give to the app.
On the other hand, it is a good method to develop missing tools quite fast.

Modo, for example, still misses an SDK, because Lux had the philosophy to develop all the tools by themselves, to mantain consistency in all the app. This makes some real sense, but slowed development of Modo for sure.

Newtek should stay in the middle, assuring a fast and nice workflow in all the app, thus building up the foundation for every area of a 3D complete app, and allowing for third party developers to code their tools to better refine the app.
so for example Newtek will develop animation system and IK/FK solver, the editors, they will add the rendering engine, the simulation system for particles and phisics, but they could do tha foundation basis for this, and give third party developers the possibility to further make this grow.


in this way the app will grow faster, and Newtek would always be able to code their stuff for CORE and so refine the app:)

As for lack of information: actually, the problem relies in the fact that they announced CORE, making a presentation, and promising infos in time, and announcing also the HC program. They could also stay silent and not announce CORE, till advanced state, but they wouldn't get any HC program, and thus no money and users helping them to shape the app.

Another solution could have been to develop Lw 9.x a little further, make people pay for this upgrade, and stay silent about CORE till more advanced state, but since Lw.x series don't allow that much of innovation, they choosed otherwise.

So what i think is public information will come towards Q4 and we will know actually something better of CORE when its released.

What i hope is in NO delay of this release, tho.

G-Man
08-24-2009, 09:25 PM
I think Newtek had to announce CORE. If they didn't, people would be really jumping ship not knowing if Newtek cared about continuing in the marketplace. I wish they would have started developing CORE sooner. They stated it's only been in the works for a year or so. But I guess some of the new technologies that are supposed to be in it weren't matured yet, ie GPU acceleration.

If Newtek can pull off a modern app with the feel of the Lightwave we are used to, I think it will be a winner. I love Modo, but for some reason it still doesn't feel like I want to animate in there (yet). Maybe I haven't used it enough.

I really wish Newtek the best. We are counting on it!

Nemoid
08-28-2009, 09:49 AM
If NT waited some more month after releasing Lw 9.6 they would have the time to market it better, after all its a good package, develop CORE further and then present it later this year, starting Hardcore program.

They could have had the time to market/advertise CORE better, taking some more time to shape it and make a cool presentation , as needed for a revolutionary product.

I don't think there was such an hurry to present it.
Maybe they needed money, as i said yet, tho.

However, not a real prob. They are developing it right now. Maybe its a bit early to judge it , and also maybe what they'll resease will not be fantastic from day one, but if well projected it will become in time.