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Padowan
06-05-2009, 03:30 PM
Greetings all.

After having spent many months, and as much money as possible on the subject, I now humbly turn to the LW community for a final opinion. I am seriously trying to finalize my search for a working pipeline, that will enable me to accomplish a professional series of animations for the marketplace. I have noticed in the these forums the subject of LW integration with other packages, and the seeming difficulties inherent in the process...therein lies my quandry, and question -

Since 1994, and my first Packard Bell P133 ($3000.00 from Sears) I have been enthralled with 3D graphics. My first purchase was TrueSpace 2. I marveled at the fact I could make a silvery floating ball above a rumpled bump-mapped plane, with a 3-color light set and actually create an .avi of it moving about. It was pure, sweet magic. then began my mad search for the "perfect" software, that would really fill all my needs - intuitive, powerful, yet not too sterile to be of no enjoyment.

I bought Ray Dream 4.0, Hash Animation, Bryce 2.0, Poser 1.0, Simply 3D, World Constuction Kit, World builder, Sculptor 4D, Texture Creator, and the educational edition of 3D Studio. I bought plug-ins, 3rd party books and tapes, and training videos. All the while trying to find the one program that I could really...understand...really grasp with two hands.
3D studio came the closest, as by being a Fire Supression Design Technician by trade, it seemed the most "familiar" somehow. But what I noticed was, especially in the 3rd party books (Inside Max 2,3,4,etc) that how many steps it took to create a convincing terrain or water plane, whereas in Bryce, it was a simple pre-set.

So over the years, after having given up on 3D Max 4.0 - due to the large cost of upgrading to a commercial license, and the poor attitude of their greedy marketing practices - I still searched my own personal Holy Grail software. Throughout the process, I maintained the upgrades on some of the software, namely Bryce and Poser. Then I discovered Vue D'Esprit 2.0
It was at that time that I thought about LightWave. As an ardent fan of Babylon 5, Star Trek TNG, Voyager, etc I came to realize the awesome power of this program, and the welcome, refreshing attitude of NewTek towards it's customers was unbelievable.

I jumped on board with LW 8.0, and upgraded to 8.5. I have the "Get Inside LW" training DVDs, and I purchased the LW 8.0 manual. I have many, many printed out tutorials off the net, and many downloaded RP video tutorials as well. I have also downladed Blender (what an awesome free program!) and purchased books, etc for it as well. Even TrueSpace 7.6 is now safely on my server, with all the plug-ins and tutorials I could find. However, I finally settled on what I thought would be a workable pipeline, with the software I currently own -

Vue Infinite 6.5
Poser Pro 7
Carrara Pro 7
Daz Studio
PD Pro 3.5
LW 9.6 (soon to upgrade to)
Sony Vegas Pro 8
Acid Pro 7
Tascam 2488 - many digital instruments

I did complete a very rough 10 minute short, using Carrara Pro 6, Poser 7, LW 8.5, Sony Vegas and Vue Infinite but it was during this project that I wished I could import my modified Poser figures into LW. Poser Pro was not available at that time, but Carrara willingly accepted all the Poser crap I could throw at it. I ended up using LW simply for some F/X backgrounds, and did the hard particle work, etc in Carrara. now I am not knocking Carrara, but (obviously) compared to LW lacked some horsepower. However, guys like Mark Bremmer have done some pretty amazing things with it, and it is a more than competent piece of software. But I ran problems that I thought - at the time - that if I could just get my figures in LW, all my problems would be solved.

The integration of Poser into Vue has always been pretty successful for me, and I have never had any real issues, at least with VI 6.5. I am not a modeler. I am not a texture artist. I am not a programmer. I am a would-be director, content to create my own worlds; my own grand tales of wonder... So, to make this extremely long post shorter, this is my question - for guys that can help -

Should I upgrade to Vue Infinite Xtream 7.5, and LW 9.6 simply to be able to integrate these programs with Poser Pro? I have read about some issues with Dynamic Cloth and Hair.
If I did upgrade to Xtreme, has anyone found it to be worthwhile?

I am looking at $595.00 for my LW upgrade, and $895.00 for the Xtreme sidegrade. All so I can try to integrate the 3 programs.

Any thoughts? And thanks to all...:thumbsup

littlewaves
06-05-2009, 04:01 PM
IT'S THE FINAL PIPELINE
da da dah dah...
da da dat dat dah...
da da dah dah...
da da dat dat dah dat
etc.

okay ladeez and gentlemen you've been a loverly audience
and if you're driving home tonight.. don't forget your car.

Padowan
06-05-2009, 04:24 PM
ok ok...

...was kind of a cool tune, in a weird 80's way...

littlewaves
06-05-2009, 04:25 PM
and now for a more serious response.

What is it you actually want to achieve in vue?

$895 is a lot of dough right? can you get by with 6.5 and just composite?

Also do you not find that more than one or two vicky's in a scene brings your system to a standstill? Those models are so high poly it's nuts.

Not entirely sure why you're keeping carrara in there? I'll be honest I've not used it but you're saying yourself that lightwave leave it behind right?

There's a plugin the Splinegod has mentioned a few times that brings poser figures into lightwave boned up and ready to go so have a search for that. - can't remember it's name

you say "I am not a modeler. I am not a texture artist. I am not a programmer."
well neither am I really but a little knowledge of those things in lightwave has helped me no end.

The things that can be done with nodes in lightwave both in texturing and with displacement are really pretty awesome if you can just get the hang of the workflow. It's overlooked by a lot of people.

Anyway I hope that's more helpful than my first post.

Padowan
06-05-2009, 04:46 PM
No worries. I can appreciate some humor, no matter how obtuse...

As to your response, I really enjoy Vue Infinite, but after 5.0 the integration into LW was extremely poor. What I am contemplating is 3 possible pipelines -

Carrara 7.2 / Daz Studio 3.0

LightWave 9.6 / Vue Xtreme 7.5 / Poser Pro 7

LightWave 8.5 / Vue Infinte 6.5 / Poser Pro 7 / Kurve's Plugin

Although I do understand a bit about modeling/textures/programming, I prefer to buy 3rd party content, tweek as needed, and implement said content into what I am trying to develop.

Ultimately, I want the LW rendering and F/X capabilities, with the Vue environments, and the Poser content. I would love to have the best these programs, working as one, all in the LW environment.
:hey:
I just bought a Dell Dual Quad Core, XP PRO 64 bit, 8 gigs RAM, 1.5 gig Video Card, Surround Sound, etc for this purpose. So I want this next investment to count.

adamredwoods
06-05-2009, 06:15 PM
I am not a modeler. I am not a texture artist. I am not a programmer. I am a would-be director, content to create my own worlds; my own grand tales of wonder... So, to make this extremely long post shorter, this is my question - for guys that can help -


I'm going to be realistic. If you don't want to model, texture, or whatever and just direct.... then you should consider video or claymation rather than 3d. Something more instant would suit you best.

Any 3D software can give great results, but you have to be disciplined in modeling, texturing, lighting, rendering and more just to get those great results.

Unless you have a large team working for you...

RebelHill
06-05-2009, 07:36 PM
sounds to me ike ud just be best off with poser and vue alone... LW, or an other package, is gonna require a lot of work and practice to get good results from, its not as simple as just loading 3rd party content... u want it for the renderer, be ready to sped a long time with texturing, shading, and lighting...

Things like poser, and especially vue give a far better skill/results ratio (the compromise being original content creation) than most any other packages out there.

Dexter2999
06-05-2009, 08:11 PM
I don't see any compositing package listed.

I would strongly encourage you to purchase After Effects for titles and motion graphics. It is close to $1000. This isn't mandatory but I urge you to look into it.

There was a series of articles in HDRI about multipass rendering and compositing. The author was using Combustion but the principles apply across the board. After reading that series, I opted to purchase a copy of SHAKE (a node based compositor) for $250 and setting up one of my PC's as a dual boot "Hackintosh". I'm not worried about OS updates as this unit is a dedicated machine and as long as it does that one thing I'm fine. My next purchase is going to be the JANUS multipass rendering manager. Do a forum search here and you will find some threads and one has some great videos to show you the power of multipass rendering and compositing.

Now you CAN do multipass compositing in After Effects but it isn't going to be as fluid of a process.

Anyway, best of luck.

Padowan
06-06-2009, 12:59 AM
Awesome. Thanks for the opinions, I appreciate it. I do understand the precepts of a major app, as my old favorite was 3D Max. It is just that I usually work (as Clark Kent) a 50-60 hour week earning a living, thus my need for speed when I want to create.

The 3rd party content offered by the artists at DAZ, Renderosity, RDNA, TSquid etc is of great quality, and allows me to simply reap the benefits of someone's talents and abilities - be they a programmer, texture artist, or modeler. Their products are everywhere, on Cable Programs, Advertising, Print,etc. My particular strengths are more in the directing, lighting,and scoring of what I create, not the actual rigging, etc of models.

My dilemma is I want to use Vue Xtreme and Poser Pro as plugins to LW together, or on top of each other. That is why I was hoping for someone here, who has had experience with their integration, to either forewarn, or encourage the decision to use them in that fashion - ie "No way Dude! I tried it, and it is way too unstable", or "Sure! Go for it. I have integrated the 3 apps and they work perfectly."

I agree that Vue and Poser Pro offer the best results, for the least amount of effort, but just because you own a paintbrush doesn't mean you are a rembrandt. I have seen amazing things from apps like Bryce, and a whole lot of crap, too. Same with Max, Maya, and yes - even Vue and Poser. Hopefully the difference with myself, is that my final results will speak for themselves.

I am looking at After Effects, as Vegas Pro - although capable of some nifty stuff - is more for the final composition of the shorts. Particle Illusion is also something I am contemplating.

After looking at the E-on, Smith Micro, Newtek, and Kurve Studio sites, it seems some were not as pleased as I hoped with the Vue Xtreme 7.5 integration with LW. The same could be said about the Poser Pro LW Fusion plugin. What I would (possibly) be attempting is both - a LW scene with full Vue Xtreme terrains and atmosphere, along with a imported Poser Pro figure(s) animation. I would, of course, also be using compositing, multi-pass, etc.

That was the purpose of this thread. To seek help from those who have used these apps, together, in some fashion. But again, I really appreciate the replies. Thanks for putting up with a "part-timer" who wants to produce something that will not be lauded a testimony to any app - but rather will be seamless, professional, marketable product.

Thanks again. And if anyone else has used Vue Xtreme 7.5, and or the Poser Pro Fusion plugin, or the Kurve Studio Kit, please let me know what you think.

Tom Wood
06-06-2009, 05:37 PM
Particle Illusion is also something I am contemplating.

You probably already know this, but Particle Illusions isn't real 3D. You can't make a fog atmosphere that varies across the Z depth that a character can move through. I use PI from time to time, and it's very effective at fooling the eye when used sparingly.

It's also great at making some nice psychedelics. I wish we had this stuff back when it was just colored water in clock lenses on an overhead projector. We did raves before they were called raves...:D

Mr Rid
06-06-2009, 11:46 PM
I have wished for a way to get Daz/poser figures & animations into LW but it seems that every conversion between any 3D apps using any off-the-shelf process has issues. But I find it easy to bring Daz/poser models into LW without any plugins. Maybe you could then use Maestro (I have not used) to apply rigs and keep animation in LW. I dont know what issues there currently are with Vue-to-LW.

Padowan
06-07-2009, 07:54 PM
Mr. Wood - Thanks. I am aware of what PI is used for, but a lot of what I am doing involves particles. I was just considering ways to decrease render times, etc. But I appreciate the reply - and the rave!

As you know, you can do some pretty crazy things in LW - particularly with the animated volumetric lights and animated procedurals, or Particles and Hypervoxels. I actually paid for those things earlier in the Sony "Textures and Backdrops" collection. Imagine my surprise when I created some of them myself in LW, and Vue.

Mr Rid - HA! Now that's what I'm talkin' about, baby!
Awesome reel. Lot's of stuff I've seen on the ol' telly!
Very, very cool...

My self, I am just trying to find the fastest way to create what I have already put on storyboards. Purchasing 3rd party content from talented artists works for me. I just need to find the most efficient way to bring it all together.
The most advanced program I own a commercial license for is LW, and Vue Infinite...
Who knows...maybe I'll be the guinea pig, and try to use all 3 together - LW, Vue, Poser Pro...

I have to upgrade LW anyway, so I won't miss out on CORE...and then at least then I can use the Poser Fusion plugin, and see what's up. Sidegrading Vue Infinite to Xtreme makes sense, even if Poser Pro doesn't work out. I mean that's better than having just Ozone.

You know, Daz Studio 3 Advanced is looking pretty cool, and It's integration to Carrara Pro 7 is supposed to be excellent, particularly with Daz content.

Hmmm...decisions, decisions - it's all good though.

Thanks All

Mr Rid
06-07-2009, 11:46 PM
You know, Daz Studio 3 Advanced is looking pretty cool, and It's integration to Carrara Pro 7 is supposed to be excellent, particularly with Daz content.
Thanks All

Am sure Daz works great with Carrara since its all in the family. I love it for the same reason you mention of being able to just jump in and start directing a story. I stumbled across Daz 1 a few years ago while searching for free characters to do a previz. For about $75, I could make a dozen detailed characters I needed, with costumes, props and sets that fit right into the narrative. Since I did not have to dick with any modeling and texturing, I could focus on detailed lighting, animation and even FX that the client was not expecting at all and they were blown away. The extra detail helped because the previz was also used as a selling tool.

Its so easy to drop mocap on figures in Daz (I dont know Poser) for quick previz and background character animation, whereas LW is a hassle. They even got fancy with cloth now. I just wish there was a smooth conversion to LW.

74165
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If I need detailed figure models for an animation, why the hell would I want to sit and try to model and texture this from scratch, when I can buy it for $30?

Michael 4, Cinema 4D render
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Daz render
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littlewaves
06-08-2009, 04:22 AM
I just wish there was a smooth conversion to LW.

there is an FBX plugin for DAZ http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/itemdetails/-/?item=4137

Although at $99 you'd want to know it would be pretty seamless

probably a good sign that one of it's listed features is "Export in standard FBX format, or using a customized export for LightWave users".

Kinda looks like they've at least thought about lightwave.

Padowan
06-08-2009, 10:18 AM
Mr Rid -

Indeed! Exactly my premise. Although I could eventually come up with some of this stuff, there are talented people out there already creating it, with full commercial licenses. I agree 100 percent, that for me, buying 3rd party content works best. Nice to know a professional such as yourself can see the logic. It's amazing the depth of arrogance I have come across (not in this thread) in some forums, from those who create their own content from scratch. Their disdain for Poser, Daz, etc is most vehement - even insulting. I am a longtime reader 3D World magazine, and even within it's pages, there are subscribers who openly scoff at the "hobbyists" who choose to use Poser - even though 3D World itself recognizes the wide, ever growing user base, and the professionals who incorporate it into their work, in whatever fashion.
I presume their attitude must reflect some form of insecurity, based on the final render of a Daz Studio Preset (as you have shown) compared to something they worked umpteen hours upon, only to have it perhaps not come out as well...I don't know. but I have seen now (for years) the subtle undercurrent of - dare I say it - "Bigotry" against those who did not take their own photos, create a texture map, model and then rig the model, create the props, and render it. Well, I say, if you have the talent - and the time - then Kudos to you. Well done. But why be arrogant about it? Why look down on someone who chooses a perhaps "easier" path, but has substantial final results? Isn't that all that matters? I mean, who is going to care, other than another artist, how the final result was created?

I saw SplineGod's work on the Animal Planet channel, and I immediately knew it was DAZ content. I even told my spouse, "Hey. That's DAZ." but did anyone else know, or care? Same with the SCI-FI channel. I mean it is everywhere. Why berate someone who is making a living either providing wonderful 3D content for users, or simply using it? It is against what all true artists stand for - creative expression. Who cares what tools they use. If it sucks, it sucks, whether it be Max, Maya, LW, Blender, Poser, or Bryce! If it's cool, if it works, it it SELLS, than who cares how it was made!

I seems it would only matter to those who would say, "well, yes it looks good, but you didn't rig it. Or you didn't model it. Or that was a pre-set. Or you bought it..."

It's unfortunate. At least there are talented professionals out there, who are generous in their advice, in their tutorials, in the freebies provided on their sites. They are not jealous. They are not afraid to share "their secrets." They willingly, openly, help the beginners, the hobbyists, and other professionals - all without judgment, without arrogance, and without prejudice.

littlewaves -
That's right! I forgot about the FBX!


Hmmmm...

Thanks All!

Mr Rid
06-08-2009, 11:43 AM
there is an FBX plugin for DAZ http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/itemdetails/-/?item=4137

Although at $99 you'd want to know it would be pretty seamless

probably a good sign that one of it's listed features is "Export in standard FBX format, or using a customized export for LightWave users".

Kinda looks like they've at least thought about lightwave.

Yeah, I just read about problems with this... I dont recall now, there were a few threads. Every conversion tool has issues. NT throws features in LW that are not really working so they can claim it as a selling point I guess. But Collada seems totally useless in LW, and people use the LW8 version of the FBX plugin because the integrated FBX has issues.

IMI
06-08-2009, 12:00 PM
I gotta say, Mr Rid, that to see someone use Daz figures and programs like Daz Studio like you have here is an amazing thing. I don't see anywhere near that kind of beauty and technical prowess in anything among the hundreds of thousands of images pumped out in the typical channels for those programs and models. If you know what I mean.

Having said that, I agree, trying to use such figures and meshes in LW is a hassle. It never ceases to amaze me how cheap programs like Poser and Daz Studio can have such fast response with such dense meshes, while high end programs choke on even one such figure, adding new levels of aggravation to rigging, posing an animating than there already are.
I suppose it's because those programs are made to deal with raw polys, while LW, Maya, Max, et al, are more suited towards sub-patch objects. But it's still surprising after all these years that these high end programs wouldn't have caught on to the fact that we can't always have a low poly mesh to work with, especially considering the leaps and bounds processing speed and power and RAM and GPU power have made in recent years.

IMI
06-08-2009, 12:16 PM
Their disdain for Poser, Daz, etc is most vehement - even insulting. I am a longtime reader 3D World magazine, and even within it's pages, there are subscribers who openly scoff at the "hobbyists" who choose to use Poser - even though 3D World itself recognizes the wide, ever growing user base, and the professionals who incorporate it into their work, in whatever fashion.
I presume their attitude must reflect some form of insecurity, based on the final render of a Daz Studio Preset (as you have shown) compared to something they worked umpteen hours upon, only to have it perhaps not come out as well...I don't know. but I have seen now (for years) the subtle undercurrent of - dare I say it - "Bigotry" against those who did not take their own photos, create a texture map, model and then rig the model, create the props, and render it. Well, I say, if you have the talent - and the time - then Kudos to you. Well done. But why be arrogant about it? Why look down on someone who chooses a perhaps "easier" path, but has substantial final results? Isn't that all that matters? I mean, who is going to care, other than another artist, how the final result was created?



I don't think the real problem is necessarily *what* is used, but rather the fact (IMO, and many others) that 99% of the stuff created with those models and programs is just trite, overdone, unoriginal, uninspired crap. 99% of the still images are cheesy pinups made by tossing a bunch of premade stuff together, which often includes every element in the scene from meshes all the way up to lights.
Dead eyes, plastic skin, bad lighting, bad shadows, incorrect proportions, texture maps that are stretched all over the place by over-morphing... and so on.
The Daz/Poser world gave its reputation to itself with the sheer glut of junk pumped out by the millions each year, and with each passing year the truly good stuff gets buried more and more in the trash heap that is the norm.

I don't think Poser and Daz would have anywhere near the bad reputation they have were it not for the above. And the users of those programs frequently actually believe their stuff is "photoreal" after years of back-patting from their fellow hobbyists and admirers. Then one day they present it to a real pro crowd, get shot down, and go out crying and screaming that it's prejudice against their software.
It must be that, and only that, because 10,000 fawning and positive gallery comments from other hobbyists must be more correct than 10 bad comments from professionals who are in the habit of finding flaws and have a real good eye for it...

Not to say that there isn't a certain amount of elitism from the do-it-all-yourself crowd, but I don't see them coming down on, say, Evermotion or Dosch, for their premade architectural and other content, so I think the problem is more with the users of Poser/Daz, and not necessarily the idea of using prefab figures or models.

RebelHill
06-08-2009, 12:44 PM
Their disdain for Poser, Daz, etc is most vehement - even insulting.....

...I immediately knew it was DAZ content....

See... this is where my own personal disdain for poser/daz lies... I got nothing against folks pulling in premade/pretextured this or that.... really whatever works... its like you say... does the end result look good?

Can daz/poser stuff look good, sure, though it ofen doesnt... but what it DOES always look like is daz/poser... its so homogenous, and obvious, and this impedes ur ability to make anything created with it look original.

IMI
06-08-2009, 01:14 PM
Yeah, Poser people often say something like, "well, do you make your own software too, do you make your own paint?"
I can take a pallet of oil paints and spend hours making a complete piece of muddy crap, thoroughly ruining a canvas along the way. I used to do that regularly, so I know how easy it is, and how good I am at it. :D
Well then again, a real artist can take that same pallet and canvas and turn it into something beautiful and meaningful and respected, and even lucrative.
So it's really not what you use, but how you use it, a concept that seems to be completely lost on the majority of the Poser/Daz users.

Padowan
06-08-2009, 03:29 PM
IMI -

I for one, have never submitted artwork to other "hobbyists" or "admirers" for approval. I have never been patted on the back for producing crap, either. I will submit out that you have made my point entirely. 3D World magazine voted Poser the best Character Animation tool for the price, and Daz Studio 3 looks to better it if possible. It is just a tool, albeit one for the masses. Being so, it is only logical that (like Bryce) many will "play" with it, and produce less than stellar results. It can also become easily recognizable if default renders are overly used. But what about the artists who have used it, without it being obvious? Or those professionals who choose to use it exclusively for pre-vis? Would you still consider them less creative than yourself?

It almost seems like you have swept 99% of the Poser/Daz community into one large, untalented, lazy, creatively retarded group of drooling morons, happily pretending that they can be creative too...and I think that is completely unfair. But again, the final results is all that counts. I will finish what I have started. And if I am successful, even if it means using Daz or any other 3rd party content - and Poser - then so be it.

rebelhill -

Well...everyone has an opinion. And since I cannot rig, or model as fast as you, then I leave to you my regards.

IMI
06-08-2009, 04:18 PM
Padowan, if that's what you got out of what I, and RebelHill said, then I suggest that you're being entirely too sensitive about it. I did not say "you this or that..", and neither did RebelHill.

The figure "99%" used here, and almost in all applications everywhere, is for the most part an exaggeration. It is generally recognized as an exaggeration and is generally meant to be taken to be synonymous with "a whole lot" or an evident majority.

The proof of what I said can be found in Poser and Daz Studio forums and galleries all over the whole of the interwebs.
Perhaps you disagree, and that's fine, nor do I care to argue about it with you, but I firmly believe I am correct in saying that the main reason Poser and Daz get knocked so badly is due entirely to the *general* overall poor quality of work produced by the people who use those programs and models and all the stuff that goes along with it.
And you don't have to read comments people leave for very long to discover it's all more of a social backpatting-fest than any kind of honest introspection into the majority of the art.

Sure, there's alot of bad Maya (for example) art out there too, and the people who create it hear about it just the same. But offhand I can't think of even one Maya gallery with thousands of variations of the same theme, with the same models, done badly, all with the same flaws, let alone dozens of them scattered all over.

I haven't proved your point at all. You just took it defensively for whatever reason. If you want to use Poser, have at it and don't worry about anything *I* have to say about it.

Padowan
06-08-2009, 04:31 PM
IMI -

I'm not trying to pick a fight. If my response seemed overly defensive due to my misinterpreting your posts, forgive me. I apologize. It was entirely my fault.

But I am curious...do you travel the "back roads" of the Daz / Poser forums? And if so, why? Do you also own Poser or Daz Studio?
Don't get me wrong - I am not being sarcastic - just wondering.
As I have said, I own Carrara Pro 7, Poser Pro 7, Vue Infinite, and Daz Studio. I know of professionals who make their living using these programs, or creating content for them, often modeled in LW. I think they are great programs, for the price. I also greatly enjoy LW. That is why I bought it, and that is why I continue to study the manual, training DVDs and books, and web based tutorials. It is an awesome program.

RebelHill -
I wasn't being sarcastic. That was a compliment. Having seen your demos, I was impressed. I was just saying you are entitled to your opinion.

Padowan
06-08-2009, 05:14 PM
Megalodon -

Of course I agree. Unfortunately there is no denying the pure, unadulterated crap that has been (and always probably will be) generated by novices playing with Poser / Daz / Vue. And you are completely correct that the artist will use ANY software, and make something cool.

I did not mean to turn this into another Hate Poser debate, as I just wanted to know if anyone used Poser PRO and Vue Xtreme in LW 9.6 - if it had been, or could be done.
But, having said that, it seems there is a condescending view toward Poser Pro users, who want to use the Poser Fusion, or PLK plugin. It was in this forum that a guy was asking for help, because of problems with the the hair importing correctly, and he was generally put down because he was using Poser. In fact one guy lorded over him the fact that he understood the underlying programming that made hair in LW possible.

And Brethren, that ain't cool, no matter what software you use.

Mr Rid
06-08-2009, 05:33 PM
...I don't see anywhere near that kind of beauty and technical prowess in anything among the hundreds of thousands of images pumped out in the typical channels for those programs and models. ..years.

*sigh*... not this again. :foreheads Dont make me pull out all the pretty images done with Poser. :) Actually, I like surprising the Poser naysayers.

It's just that you have not seen what better artists are doing with Daz/Poser. The software is much more accessible to the masses and so there is a glut of low-grade imagery associated with it. Its kinda
like sifting thru all the crap on YouTube to find the few truly brilliant channels of no-tech content created by talented individuals.

But Poser/Daz allows artists to use pre-made models like a photographer or filmmaker uses actors and locations to get down to expressing ideas, much more easily than if they had to first become experts in modeling and texturing and spend many months creating all their characters and props.... or like how 3D artists use presets, dynamics, tutorials or primitives instead of creating each vertice from scratch.

It is up the artist how the tools are used.

Tell Don Marco he is not a real artist because he uses Crayons-
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http://www.themastercrayonartist.com/shop/custCat.aspx

IMI
06-08-2009, 06:06 PM
Do you also own Poser or Daz Studio?


I don't have time for any of this, but....
Yes, I've owned every version of poser since Poser 3 which I got right before Poser 4 came out, and every version since then. I actually do know the program quite thoroughly. I hate it, rather, I hate *fighting* it, but I use it.
No, I don't browse all galleries every day, but often enough to think I'm safe in saying that the good stuff is fairly well-buried under heaps of crap. Sorry, but that's how I see it. If it helps any, I'm not thrilled with most of the 3D art I see, no matter who makes it, with what, my own stuff included. ;)
*********

Mr. Rid, maybe I failed at getting my point across, but basically what I said is I think the stuff you do with the aforementioned resources is quite good. I also didn't say nobody else does, just that's it's few and far between.
And by that I'm not saying the average good, but rather, the exceptional good. In the early days of Poser there were alot more people pushing it to its limits. Things have changed quite a bit since then.
I'm not trying to get into an argument about it, nor trying to rehash anything that hasn't already been said a thousand times, just pointing out what I thought the reasons are for why Poser is so shunned. I didn't see any other way for me to state that. Am I wrong? Is Poser hated at CGT simply because everyone there is an a-hole?

Mr Rid
06-08-2009, 06:22 PM
...Unfortunately there is no denying the pure, unadulterated crap that has been (and always probably will be) generated by novices playing with Poser / Daz / Vue...
...Lightwave, Max, Maya... Those darn novices!

I find many, many more interesting ideas expressed in the 'pre-made' galleries than in the LW gallery any day. LW galleries tend to be more about marveling at the render itself, which is perfectly fine. Usually it's a glass or metal something or other, an empty room, or WIP of skin. :sleeping:

I get bored looking at Zbrush art as well, where there is an overriding obsession with 'wow, look at how detailed the model is.' Pores, wrinkles and bulging veins are usually overcooked. I recently ordered Exotique: "The World's Most Beautiful CG Characters", and was disappointed overall (along with an art director friend). Yes, its all very slick in execution but the ideas are hacky and no more (or less) interesting than better renders I see using premades. And even Poser models turn up regularly in the Ballistic books! There is one really shockingly photoreal render of a man's face in Exotique that credits Poser that I can barely comprehend.

Mr Rid
06-08-2009, 06:38 PM
WHAT???

How dare they pollute such a wonderful package of incredible images with such nonsense.

Oh... just kidding. :)

I know. Its deplorable. Torches should be burned and pitchforks brandished.

Tom Wood
06-08-2009, 08:11 PM
So, um, I guess this would be a bad time to bring up the Corepad models? :D

Padowan
06-08-2009, 08:26 PM
Ha!

Simply Excellent.

I will do the best I can with what I have. If it's crap, then it is not my apps fault - it is mine.

I am definitely upgrading to LW 9.6. I already own the Poser Fusion plugin. I also need to ugrade Vue Infinite from 6.5 to 7.5
Might as well put out another 3 bills and make it Xtream. I'll see if I can get it all to work...

Appreciate those who have made "cheap" software shine...it does you much, much credit.

That reminds me of this guy, back in the late 80's...an awesome drummer. I was worried about getting all the best, the biggest, the wrap-around Neil Peart type kit, you know? Well this guy came over to our Bass players house. He had this old beat-up kit he got at a garage sale or something. I poo-pooed it endlessly...until this guy showed up one day with a new set of Remo Ambassador heads - pin stripe I think...in any case he then tuned up that kit, polished the cymbals, and proceeded to play RUSH "Tom Sawyer", and "YYZ" note for note, and lick for friggin' lick...
Best darn drum sound I have ever heard live, in the room, even to this day...best un-miked acoustic sound..

Moral of the story?

It ain't the tools...it's the artisan. And I'll never forget that.