PDA

View Full Version : Education means Nothing in this Industry



OnlineRender
05-21-2009, 06:03 AM
Heres what ive gained over several years , but to what effect ! none thats what , it all comes down to 1 thing and thats your demo reel


UK DRIVING LICENCE ( clean atm )
University of West Of Scotland
Glasgow

BSc (Hons) Computer Animation with Digital Art
3D Animation & Digital Art ( Honours Level 10 )

3D Animation ( Major )
Digital Art ( Minor )


Virtual Environments - A
Computer Animation 4 Project - TBA
Artwork - A
Special Effects for CGI - A
Presentation and Promotion - A


BSc Computer Animation with Digital Art
3D Animation & Digital Art ( year 3 , Level 9 )

Time Based Media Applications
Modelling for Animation
Creative Practice
Visual Communication
Computer Animation Techniques
CGI Filmmaking
Digital Video & Film Making 3A
Advanced Drawing

Stow College Glasgow

Higher National Diploma Interactive Multimedia Creation

Interactive Multimedia Creation:Graded Unit 2 : A
Interactive Multimedia Creation:Graded Unit 1 : A


Higher National Units

2D Digital Imaging & Animation
3D Modelling & Animation
Advanced Vector Graphics for Creative Multimedia Design
Project Management
Radio Production 2:Producing Programmes in a range of styles
User Interface:Testing and Evaluation
Video Production 2: Making A Video Programme
Audio Visual Techniques for Multimedia Applications
Developing Entrepreneurial Skills
Graphics for Creative Multimedia Design
Information Technology : Application Software 1
Internet: Introducing e-Commerce
Multimedia Fundamentals
Mutlimedia :Developing Multimedia Applications
Researching Multimedia Applications for Practical Re-Delivery
User Interface Development
Writting for the Media

Extra Studies "outside School"

National Units

HIV INfection , Related Illnesses and Hepatitis B
First Aid Measures
Child Development:
Computer Application Package (Spreadsheet)
Computer Application Package (Word Processing)
Introduction to computer Programming - Pascal
Introduction to Computer Hardware
Introduction to Computer Programming
Introduction to Literature
Work Experience
Life & Work
A world of Values
Games & Sport : Volleyball 2
Games & Sport :Trampolining 1
Games & Sport : Volleyball 1

Kirkintilloch High School

SQA " Standard Grades " High School Education

Art & Design 2
Computing Studies 2
Craft & Design 3
English 3
Geography 3
Mathematics 3
Physics 3
German 3
( Spent more time playing football ,rather going to high School )
Missed out some silly modules ,ie Home Econimcs )


List longer than your Arm ,but totally pointless other than I'm 18 K worth of Debt for student loans ...............hmmmm what was the point ?

DiedonD
05-21-2009, 06:34 AM
First of, welcome back. :thumbsup:

Secondly, perhaps you could be set as a living example of what other older and more experience artists in this industry kept on telling us all the time that they 'have yet to see a studio that cares more about the academical part of the artist, rather then that ones reel!"

rezman
05-21-2009, 07:10 AM
18k of loans?!?! You got off cheap! ;D

jaxtone
05-21-2009, 07:19 AM
Wow! That was a list to remember... or maybe not, linkin to David Bowies quote about that no man is greater than his latest hit single! Time flies and one day the first grey hairs appeared when I suddenly understood that life was more than dreams.

Honestly I am not the best when it comes to detailed specialized services but as a producer I am a great allrounder and always deliver film, music, graphic art or 3D projects in time. Unfortunally sometimes to underrated prices since I am no businessman in the heart and never seen the money as a driving force.

One thing I was thinking about was that during the years I met and tried to co-operate in many projects with much younger men than myself. Most of the time it leads to confrontations because the limited tunnel vision that many young men lives with many times make them great in details and specialization but totally worthless in seing the whole picture according to deadlines and budgets. Just like myself when I was younger.

I might have misunderstood the whole message but to me it sounded like you were a little bit unsatisfied with the outcome of your choices! Sometimes I feel just the same and thats when I pick up my Fender Stratocaster and the microphone and book in a rock n´ roll gig.

So even if my deadline for the upcoming film and DVD project is 10 days away and I know that I screwed myself with an underrated quote I rather look forward to the gig I got on saturday with my old band from the 70´s.

Long live Rock n´ Roll!

akademus
05-21-2009, 07:31 AM
Well, diploma alone wont land you a job in industry if you don't have previous experience.
Now, I remember how Australian Immigration authorities defined my profession and its a good lead on what that is.


Illustrator 2533-19
Job description
Draws and paints pictures that assist in presentation and meaning, and explain narrative, dialogue and ideas.
Similar occupations

Animator, Cartoonist.
Skill level

The entry requirement for this occupation is a bachelor degree or higher qualification. This occupation requires high levels of creative talent or personal commitment and interest as well as formal qualifications.


I did 3D before college, signed for a Multimedia design in Communications, gained BA, learned a lot of useless and less useless stuff, moved on with carrier. I spent some 30.000$ in total for it and I'm yet to see results. Only thing is it helped me getting abroad work permits, slightly larger salaries (but not much) and, of course, decreasing number of a-holes asking questions like what type of school you did in order to do your job :D

But, in every day studio life, I'm on my own and stuff I learned by myself.

OnlineRender
05-21-2009, 08:07 AM
18k of loans?!?! You got off cheap! ;D

18 K+ the rest i don't want to work out , couldn't stay away , that would be suicidal in this business , notice the capital letters and punctuation . mathematically i would have been cheaper buying proton and spline god for a week "maybe" .

Im still done with LW though , no access ,plus i have MAX 2009 sitting collecting dust .

4dartist
05-21-2009, 08:46 AM
I'm sorry I don't believe Education means nothing. Sure when you go for a job, they basically look at your talent/demoreel. But what do you think the schooling was for?? To teach you 3d so you could make a demoreel. Do you honestly think your reel would be as good or better w/out the schooling? I know mine wouldn't have been. I learned a lot about working with other people, delivering animation on time, and all the random things you learn from college life.

School also puts pressure on you to work hard. Where as with self teaching, the only thing you have is self motivation, which some people only have so much of. Learning 3d can be frustrating, and having teachers and peers around can make all the difference. If you can do it solo then ya, hell why not? Save the $$. But if you can't then ya school is great. I doubt anyone told you companies would be begging you to work for them at graduation day..

I do wish that 3d schools would tell you how difficult it is to find jobs though, it definitely isn't a cake walk. My brother who is an electrical engineer landed his job at TVA right out of college and has been gradually moving up and up ever since, but when you choose 3d you choose a different sort of life. (for most of us)

Also, finding a niche that isn't so over saturated with artists is best. Like the firms that use 3d in courtrooms, a great place to start. Plenty of those in Chicago and probably any big city. Plus they are most likely long lasting jobs, where as going to work on movies/tv shows are just temp jobs usually. Those companies could care less about their average artist. (from stories I've heard from friends who have worked there) Just one of the tons of different areas.

Anyways, sorry you don't feel your college education was worth it. I say keep working at it and maybe someday you'll feel otherwise.

(off soapbox)

AdamAvenali
05-21-2009, 08:56 AM
I'm sorry I don't believe Education means nothing.

i agree to a degree. i believe that your reel will get you an interview, but you still have to come across as being somewhat intelligent. i would have a hard time hiring someone that came to an interview using double negatives, but that's just me.

4dartist
05-21-2009, 09:01 AM
Ouch...

AdamAvenali
05-21-2009, 09:09 AM
Ouch...

sorry, that really came off the wrong way. i was a bit grumpy there when i posted. grammar is just a personal pet peeve of mine.

OnlineRender
05-21-2009, 09:24 AM
sorry, that really came off the wrong way. i was a bit grumpy there when i posted. grammar is just a personal pet peeve of mine.

LOL had several days like that lately :) , writting in English i try to avoid full stop " injoke there" .

im just annoyed that 4 years has been a sort of wasted , serouisly i would have been cheaper and more productive watching and using online tuts .Ok i have elements like Radio Production Blah Blah , but im lucky i have a trade to fall back on "plaster / tiler " but people entering this industry may not be as lucky !

EDIT anybody need there walls skimmed :)

Your only as good as your last job !

cresshead
05-21-2009, 09:31 AM
.

Im still done with LW though , no access ,plus i have MAX 2009 sitting collecting dust .

sorry...have i missed a post somewhere...what happened to drop lightwave and max??

OnlineRender
05-21-2009, 09:38 AM
I only had Educational version via University , now im finished , I have no access , but i purchased max 09/10 about 2 months ago and ive not even opened up the GUI "scared more than anything "

whens Q4 Core getting released ? i have a freelance job working on re-branding / building website ,pay will just be enough to cover the purchase of CORE

OnlineRender
05-21-2009, 09:49 AM
had to , I had been given a student disability grant " £4,000" i had to buy software ,and use the full amount ,and show proof of purchase .

plus AD is generally what the UK games industry uses ! but i did say i needed a 52 inch HD TV / Monitor , cheers Gordon Brown .

was tempted to buy Core but ive just not heard enough solid evidence to persude me ! but that will come soon

RebelHill
05-21-2009, 10:15 AM
it all comes down to 1 thing and thats your demo reel

Ummm... yup... Would you hire someone with schooling up to the eyeballs but who couldnt actually demonstrate an ability to produce anything of value ro merit... dont think so.

I jacked in school at 16, best choice I ever made.

OnlineRender
05-21-2009, 10:22 AM
Ummm... yup... Would you hire someone with schooling up to the eyeballs but who couldnt actually demonstrate an ability to produce anything of value ro merit... dont think so.

I jacked in school at 16, best choice I ever made.

exactly - i never really went to school , i was always one of thouse kids that had the abillity but never used it .

played pro football untill i was 19 then some fat p&*( of a defender snapped my leg in 2 well 6 parts , was amazing aswel ,after that i hit the drugs hard , then i got sent to NY to clean up my act ,best choice i ever made , when i came back to Scotland , i had 2 choices , jail or education ! whalla jail would have been easier !!

UnCommonGrafx
05-21-2009, 10:32 AM
Sounds like someone missed something in the lecture about the value of an education: it's only as good as you make it.
Said another way, education is your ticket to the future: you get to write the ticket. That's what their teaching you about the demo reel, and the like, was all about.
Why should they care about your degree if you won't show what you learned in the only way accessible to them: a demo reel?
Regardless, the schooling is yours. Whatchya gonna do?

OnlineRender
05-21-2009, 10:39 AM
personal plan - PHD further education , 1 years teacher trainning , demo reel , demo reel , demo reel work , pimp myself , xbox community games "more " good side earner !

Im head marshall for a paintball company so thats always extra cash
inbetween use my plasters trade to survive

CRY

biliousfrog
05-21-2009, 10:54 AM
Education means a lot but only if you learned something rather than just gaining a qualification...otherwise you've just gained a piece of paper and that should never qualify anyone for anything. If you've gained a lot of knowledge it will show in your work and that will help you gain work.

I'm reasonably intelligent but only scraped through school with a few GCSE's, I couldn't wait to leave, I got a job and have worked towards where I am now. I'd never used a computer until 10yrs ago and until then I'd only worked as a cabinet maker, I've never had formal training in anything and yet I've got every job I've ever applied for...why is that? A lot of it is luck but, according to employers, also because I have had more experience and common sense than the other candidates...not qualifications.

UnCommonGrafx
05-21-2009, 10:55 AM
Made me chuckle...

My musings before my students come for class...
Someone has taught you how to do some kind o'fancy communications theories and how tos about them, right? Well, you shared two areas you could use for your demo reel: a commercial for the paintball company and some kind of advert for the plaster trade.
For me, that's what the degree (haha, the Training, of course!) if for: learning to put the world together a little differently.
I was gonna say go into teaching... Then you'll see that the 'brightest' kid in the kid won't want to do your stuff; the 'dullard' might. This is the same that managers see....

personal plan - PHD further education , 1 years teacher trainning , demo reel , demo reel , demo reel work , pimp myself , xbox community games "more " good side earner !

Im head marshall for a paintball company so thats always extra cash
inbetween use my plasters trade to survive

CRY

OnlineRender
05-21-2009, 11:15 AM
ye i thought about kitting my angel "sweet marker" laser scope ,electric trigger 200 rounds in less than 1 min ,with some plaster in the hooper and blast the walls ,education ive learnt more about life than 3D .

adamredwoods
05-21-2009, 12:04 PM
If you have 3DSMax, start modeling some low-poly game characters or environments. Think like a teacher and give yourself some assignments. Make five assignments. If you can discipline yourself to do that, on your own time, then you'll be ready for a job.

OnlineRender
05-21-2009, 12:05 PM
was thinking about a left4dead MOD , which is ironic cause then it would be a MOD of a MOD :)

jasonwestmas
05-21-2009, 12:11 PM
Sometimes your resume will be the end of you. Really small things like that make a big difference.

SAHiN
05-22-2009, 08:40 AM
Hmmmm..
One day a 14 year old boy walked into my office and said "I like working with 3d, but I want to become a professional. What should I do ?" I looked at some of his hand drawings and showed him a desk he can work on..
4 years later at the age of 18 he is making $5000 per month on wages.

No offense, but imho education usually breeds arrogance.. Educated artists become more critics than creators. You see them in forums like this making critics about little details about other people's work with fancy terminology they picked up at school..

This industry has never been about education.. it always has been about talent.
If you have a bad voice, no matter how many musical degrees you have no one will listen to you..if you cant create good vision, no one will watch what you created..Simple as that. Neither TV nor Cinema viewers ask for CV when they sit down to watch a show.

When we employ people who have long list of diplomas and degrees and no demo reel, outcome is usualy predictable.. They will have little time producing and more time critisizing the work of others who are producing..

I have been in this industry well over 20 years, and I have seen many examples of this throughout the years. Talent is everything.

4dartist
05-22-2009, 08:59 AM
I'm sorry, but some people aren't born with gods gift of art, but still enjoy it and want a have a career using it. For example, me.

My best friend and I used to draw ALL the time as kids. He was always drawing something absolutely original and cool looking and I was always mimicking his stuff because I wasn't as creative/talented but it wasn't just drawing like he drew, I was learning from him.

Once I decided I wanted to do 3d, who was I going to learn from like my friend? I wasn't good at breaking new ground on my own. So I went to college for it. I feel was the right choice for me.

I would have never had the self motivation to learn on my own. School is a good motivator. Did it instantly make me successful? Hell no it didn't, I struggled for years to find a solid job, but I never gave up and now I have one.

Are there amazing artists who got formal education? Are there amazing artists who have no formal education? Are there horrible over confident artists who did or didn't study at a school? The answer to all the above is probably: Yes.

I think it comes down to not just talent, but talent and skill. Talent being what just comes to you. Skill being what you acquired by research/learning. School is something to help with skill if you don't have someone to learn from or the willpower to teach yourself.

SAHiN
05-22-2009, 09:23 AM
Take it easy Benjamin :)
I did not mean to offend you at all and my apologies if I did offend you..
I merely wanted to point out employers perspective.
When you try to break into real world of 3d animation, you have to understand your employers point of view.
Speed, Economy, Quality - Client will take two of those options..
As employer knowing what my client will choose, I would make sure the people I hire can deliver it on time, and on budget..
The only way to do that is to watch something you have created.. Then I would ask you how long it took you to create that work..That gives me a starting point with you.. Gives me an idea of what to expect of you and in how much time .. No demo reel, no work to show for means we have nothing to talk about..

I once had a guy work for me as an intern for 4 months.. Then one day he said he wants to leave - apparently he got a job at a collage as a 3d instructor. :)

Now look at it from my point of view; knowing who is teaching at that collage how much would a degree or diploma put infront of me from that school would mean to me ?
I'd rather have someone who watched Ron Thornton tutorial videos from Desktop Imaging (Thats how I got better) or Larry Schultz videos from Kurv etc..

I strongly reccommend people to follow tutorials from people who have been there and done that. Cause when Ron or Larry or John Gross talks about something, they always have real time production deadlines in the back of their minds..

Once again..Sorry if I offended anyone..Just trying to help.

Andyjaggy
05-22-2009, 09:39 AM
I don't feel like my education taught me much, or at least not things directly related to 3D. If I were to start over I doubt that I would go again. Then again I am extremely self motivated and don't feel like I need a class or teacher to motivate me to learn, I can do that on my own just fine.

But......... I went and finished, and I am glad that I now have a diploma, I am sure it will come in handy some day, and it makes the in-laws think better of me. :)

4dartist
05-22-2009, 09:41 AM
Na, I'm not offended. :) I most certainly see your point.

Heck I think everyone that was hired here as 3d artists had no formal 3d training. I know one person went to college for journalism and switched to 3d at one point.

Andyjaggy
05-22-2009, 09:41 AM
And you actually bought one of the most expensive 3D applications only to put on the shelf?

Freaking open it up and learn it man. It's not doing any good sitting in the box. I wouldn't sit around waiting for core if I were you, but I'll keep my opinions on that to myself.

I'll trade you my Lightwave Core for Max. :)

Stooch
05-22-2009, 10:42 AM
i agree to a degree. i believe that your reel will get you an interview, but you still have to come across as being somewhat intelligent. i would have a hard time hiring someone that came to an interview using double negatives, but that's just me.

i would have a hard time hiring someone with your reel. but thats just me. Dont really care about your grammar. infact alot of people here in LA barely speak english - but stick around because they can deliver.

no the guy is totally right. education means 0.

if it helps you to make a better reel.. then go for it. as long as you realize that its the REEL that makes all the difference.

SAHiN
05-22-2009, 10:57 AM
Na, I'm not offended. :) I most certainly see your point.

Heck I think everyone that was hired here as 3d artists had no formal 3d training. I know one person went to college for journalism and switched to 3d at one point.

My degree was on Psychology:)
I found it totally boring - 3d was my hobby - a hobby that paid well over the years :)

SAHiN
05-22-2009, 10:58 AM
I'll trade you my Lightwave Core for Max. :)

What daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Trade Core for max ? You lack ambition or what ? LoL :lightwave:lightwave

Andyjaggy
05-22-2009, 11:04 AM
Did rock. Who knows what it will do in the future. You can bank on the unknown or use something that you know will work. Lightwave as we know it is dead. :)

SAHiN
05-22-2009, 11:07 AM
Did rock. Who knows what it will do in the future. You can bank on the unknown or use something that you know will work. Lightwave as we know it is dead. :)

You know very Little :)

RebelHill
05-22-2009, 11:17 AM
...deliver it on time, and on budget..

In my experience, this is the MOST important thing of all

Andyjaggy
05-22-2009, 11:20 AM
You know very Little :)

Okay. Whatever you say. :)

SAHiN
05-22-2009, 11:39 AM
I look at eveluating software from a different perspective..
I often see people waiting newer versions of their software, or comparing to other software pakages and always ending up with "grass is greener on the other side" conclusion.

Let's have a look at from my perspective..
Did Leonardo Da Vinci buy upgrades to his canvas or brushes ?
Did Carravachio buy upgrades to his hammer when he was working on David ?
I would like to know if Picasso or Dali looked for upgraded brushes ?

IMO LW is a tool to create art..
We can all have the same canvas, same brushes, same paint - we can all look at the same landscape and paint the same thing.. One thing is for sure, none of the paintings will look the same.. Its what we put in it that makes it or breaks it...
its how you use the tools you were given that will make your work stand out from the rest...

Having said all that, one would think if its the LW that died or the talent inside?

Andyjaggy
05-22-2009, 12:11 PM
Oh no, not the tool argument again. Do I get a car analogy as well? Have fun building that F-16 with a screwdriver. :) I guess Da Vinci could have just used sticks to paint with right? I mean who would want to use those new paint brushes that have all that extra control?

Lightwave is dead, in that, Lightwave as we know it is dead. Core is the future of Lightwave, and if you want to sit around waiting for it then go for it.

I'm going to use something that provides what I need today and not wait around for something that may or may not fulfill my needs. Not meaning to fight here, but I get tired of the tool and car analogies. I've loved using LW up until now, but my needs have changed and it no longer fulfills what I need from an application, so I am moving on. Simple as that.

AdamAvenali
05-22-2009, 12:16 PM
i would have a hard time hiring someone with your reel. but thats just me. Dont really care about your grammar. infact alot of people here in LA barely speak english - but stick around because they can deliver.

no the guy is totally right. education means 0.

if it helps you to make a better reel.. then go for it. as long as you realize that its the REEL that makes all the difference.

i guess that i just have a different perspective on the situation. all of my jobs have involved a high level of client interaction as well as art (project manager, etc.), so communication skills are just as import as art skills in my situation.

i am also curious as to where you saw my reel as i do not have my professional reel released anywhere. if it is my site you are referring to, then yes, i would agree with you. i would not hire me either based on that, but i did just start to rebuild it this past week and am gathering content.

adamredwoods
05-22-2009, 12:16 PM
This industry has never been about education.. it always has been about talent.



Education can teach discipline and give guidance.

Sure, the reel is everything (or a portfolio for designers) and shows off talent one has. This talent is built up through many different methods, but usually one thing is prominent: practice, practice, practice.

Whether its drawing, painting, photoshop, or 3d, if you're not putting in the time creating something, you won't get the talent or the skills. Do a hundred before that one great piece.

The advice I give people is create a lot of small somethings, than to sit around thinking of one big project. This is how to become a master at something. (Weekly speed modeling challenges :) )

Education can give that practice environment. For me, it helped structure my life to practice, little assignments that buildup skills-- rather than me working at Starbucks, dreaming of making that one, huge project.

adamredwoods
05-22-2009, 12:26 PM
i guess that i just have a different perspective on the situation. all of my jobs have involved a high level of client interaction as well as art (project manager, etc.), so communication skills are just as import as art skills in my situation.


True enough, depends on the environment. In big productions, grammar and communication aren't as highly valued.

In smaller studios, or even freelance, it helps to speak professionally, especially when there's trouble or delay in a project.

probiner
05-22-2009, 01:04 PM
I find all these thaughts very funny :)
I'm finishing college and sadly i haven't made any plans for next year. It's a lack of balls i have to correct, cause like everyone else i got dreams...

But back on the topic, all my collegues are trading their expectations of a master for a professional course of a year that will cost them the same 3000€ that they paid for 3 in college. Why?

Because like many said here, in college more then to do stuff, you learn to look at stuff and think about stuff. Doing it its not always the objective, but the process. So people do little things, come out with projects that have a processing metodology (i hate it) and try to acomplish the objectives, and more than that to take outcomes from the whole process to future works. It works everything in a conceptual level, since real rock solid projects are not to be taught there.

Good stuff about college - Culture. You get to see a lot and know a lot. Get a lot of references. Take drawing for example... it's an art of seeing stuff, understanding it and reproduce it. Academia. We call stuff by the name, but sometimes we don't know what that stuff does. College is a good place is you are a thinker and your thinking is rich enough to innovate a do new stuff.

In the industry you are applyed to the industries forms, in art college you create your forms and leave the door open for being an artist, not giving a **** to what to world does in mass. It's your thing cause you are a thinker and you are independent to create and ppl come to you cause you're good and do different (rare cases :D). You are an author.

Bad - Technically my college is dead; altough computers have all kinds of software and a new discipline has been created to teach the highlights,it never gets you to production phase in a way you feel a professional. That you are supposed to get out there. Not in college. But still it could be more connected with the world.

You don't have a do and deliver way of thinking in college. You are not a professional of an area. You are there to get in touch with many media, to know how to look at them and relate them conceptually mostly. This lack of touch with stuff makes everyone insecure and frustrated.


Just to finnish. The best prepared students are one girl that already works in the industry while she studies because she did a professional course of Drawn Animation from 15-18 (in the same school where ppl is gonna pay 3000€ to get professional) and people that already took some steps to productions while studying, many times not even related with the course. The rest is mentaly lost... Master degree sucks on my college, but still some studesnt will do it. I wont take it. It's acion time :D

By the way im studying Art and Multimedia in FBAUL, Lisboa, Portugal

OnlineRender
05-22-2009, 01:17 PM
LoL interesting points from both parties , everybody is correct to some-degree "get it" ,Im lucky maybe because i was born in Glasgow ,you learn to speak fast and sharp tongued otherwise you get slaughtered , just a shame i cant spell for shinzzle , but i say to employers straight away ,look I'm dyslexic ,it doesn't hold me back , just sometimes writing is a complete backwards riddle , but on the up-side it will look good to say that you have disabled person employed "now classed a disability in UK " so i flip it on its head and use it as a good point !

I have used this post more as a science experiment and if i was to come to conclusion i would say education has some strong elements for example ,deadline commitment etc .

But in the end its all about your demo reel , you could have 2 employee's , one with the best education in the world , but in-turn with a weak demo reel , or a guy with 1 arm ,no teeth and an annoying whistle when he talks , but his demo reel is solid , who you going to pick ?????

the later example was stereotyped to prove a point ,if you've only got 1 arm i apologize for any offence ! :P

so where is the balance ?, where do you draw a line and say education vs talent ?
Ive got what i needed from this topic , an honest insight into how the real industry works , and to be honest , its a rough ride and you have to be the best and push yourself faster and harder than your peers .


EDIT YOU DONT GOTO college to become a pro , that happens when you get paid for your first job!

ps finding MAX a dream , kinda funky but lovin it !

Stooch
05-23-2009, 01:30 AM
Balh blah blah blah blah. im in college so im goign to write a long winded post excusing a choice that i already made

look man. when you are done with school and when you go into the real world to get a real job. you will fully understand what us, the professionals have gone through.

if you feel that paying money for a school is what you need to get your reel up to snuff. then go ahead and do it. its your money.

doesnt really change anything though. maybe you are one of those that needs to spend lots of money in order to feel motivated to get ahead in this industry. feel free to argue with me. but please be aware that i have been there and have done that. My honest evaluation is that if i have stuck the course and pursued the things I was pursuing before college, i would be ahead of where i am now. and have an extra $60k.

probiner
05-23-2009, 04:52 AM
Blah Blah Blah. probiner is the man. Oh and im gay... I got to change quotes more often like you did, its funny :)

To be honest industry doesn't look very bright from here. I often don't like industry's results... But still, they got the big toys :)

College and industry are apart in my case cause my faculty doesn't intruduce us to it, and because myself didn't look for it. Too bad for me.
But industry wins with ppl that know and think a lot. And not just do it well finished and on time. They can change things, not going only by the forms of the industry. Wich is fine. Sometimes its good to have someone to keep us in line and just do that little thing and we still learn a lot.
College is good for the reel? Of course not. We do exercises, think conceptually, we don't deliver the way you got to deliver in the industry.
Now, there is a personal level. Our works and quality go to the point that we commit ourselves. And some stuff i did while on college and other for the college have place on my reel.
See you guys in a couple of months :D

meshpig
05-23-2009, 05:19 AM
LOL had several days like that lately :) , writting in English i try to avoid full stop " injoke there" .

im just annoyed that 4 years has been a sort of wasted , serouisly i would have been cheaper and more productive watching and using online tuts .Ok i have elements like Radio Production Blah Blah , but im lucky i have a trade to fall back on "plaster / tiler " but people entering this industry may not be as lucky !

EDIT anybody need there walls skimmed :)

Your only as good as your last job !

Educational Institutions in general to me are only as good as their promises, so they just keep on promising.

At the top of the academic tree, if you calculate the ratio of PhD's to relevant employment the falloff is enormous.

- The old adage "if you can, do if you can't, teach and if you can''t teach teach teachers" has a certain ring to it even if it's from a bygone era.

You also have to consider that part of the role of education contiguous to a given industry is one of regulation and discouragement too in order to maintain whatever standard is applicable: Either the "exceptions" will be brought down or the lowest common denominator raised up.

Makes you think.

Tobian
05-23-2009, 06:37 AM
Certainly in the UK, but elsewhere too, part of the problem is there's a complete disconnection between any sense of 'industry' and 'education' and it's the fault of both: Ultimately educations' end goal is education. If you continue down the path (provided you are able) the net result will be a university professor. Now in some fields that useful (Physics, higher mathematics, Medicine etc) but in fields which are targeted at 'industry' it will result in a fail usually, and people drop out of the system wholly underprepared for the 'real world'. I certainly know I was!

That said, It's also not something you should just dismiss, universities are not sausage factories, and if you went into it thinking you were going to come out with a super job, err that's not been true since the 50's when only a handful of people got degrees! The point is you got an education, and, hopefully, it was a lot more broadbased than if you had just got a job in the field (the flip side to that being you would have HAD a job for 3-4 years :D). I went in to university very positive, and I came out very negative, but with some skills, which I then went on to improve... and I still don't have a design job, and I certainly am not an interior architect :D But who's fault is that? Most likely mine, for all of it: If you bought the magic beans, you only have yourself to blame :)

and before you get all down about your 'worthless' degree, erm, you got yourself out a hole, you got an education, and a degree, you have something to be proud about and self esteem is not something to be sniffed at, it's better than not having it.

And erm.. so you're a highly educated unemployed person? Did you happen to notice that little recession we're having? Welcome to the club! :p

Cageman
05-23-2009, 06:56 AM
Hmm...

If you are going to pay money to learn 3D, make sure you pick a school that has good connections with the industry. That is where the money really pays off...to get help getting connected...I got my internship through my education (and at the time a pretty good reel composed of sparetime stuff and school projects), and once that single internship was landed, I had a foot in the industry. Ever since then I've stayed employed.

Cageman
05-23-2009, 07:07 AM
- The old adage "if you can, do if you can't, teach and if you can''t teach teach teachers" has a certain ring to it even if it's from a bygone era.

LOL... I had to read it several times before I recognized what you wrote...

"Those who can; do"

"Those who can't; teach"

"Those who can't teach; teaches teachers"

Though... I have to stress the fact that all the teachers that I've met are more or less veterans that had to take a break from production in order to more or less survive. They have been around in this industry long enough to have lived through the immature period it had in the beginning where people worked 48 hours straight because "that was expected" and such idiocy.

So, for them, teaching was a huge relief. To my knowledge, most of them are now back in production at various studios, but this time around, they don't have to work 48 hours straight because "it is expected".

The industry has matured quite well over the last 7-10 years it seems.

OnlineRender
05-23-2009, 07:48 AM
heres my point of view , the whole reason i went into education ,was to stay out of trouble , simple !
also i dont want my kids 20 years down the line and look at me with dissapoitment , i want them to
understand that your only as good as your last job , but you should always have an
education behind you , in whatever subject .
I went for 3D animation & Digital Art , mainly due to the fact i want to work in the games industry / film
but i didnt learn the trade at university , they only guide you in the correct direction , the rest is up to yourself ,
hence why im here posting , im learning everytime i read a post ,from culture to religion to assests .
I post here because there is damn good talent , for example Jin , splinegod , proton , there all masters at what they do
and on top of there decent guys whilling to help mortals like myself .
I love to here people perspective and feelings , i love to see people brake barriers and methods .
The artwork displayed here , is superb at times , breath-taken , dont get me wrong , AD forum has the same demensions
but for some reason i "use this lossely" trust the NT brand /people .
Education is not what it used to be 60 years ago if you had a degree / high education , you were head hunted .
Unlike today where you get what i call kindon courses IE Life GUru class .
I remember my parents talking about people who worked in banks being high class , now anybody from your local junkie can get a job working for a bank
"no offence " .

Education is over rated , skill and talent is what counts .


the next few years are going to be hard for new artists / everybody , how can you convince somebody that they need your services when they personally dont have the cash to spare .
i reckon i will be in my late 30s before i get where i want to be .
i have 10 year goal plan , i done well at college / university , inbeetween i managed to have 2.5 kids "one on the way" and still stay focused enough to complete my courses.
now i have to network and pimp myself , im getting alot of work from bands atm "ahh" but i need to take what ever i can get , mainly to survive ! and if that means designing effectivly crap products for bands i know will not make it , well so be it , the cash is there and i need it .
i can see 3D getting more and more comman esp in film / tv , you have no real world restriction , you can break the laws of physics and open doors .
the question is how do you make it productive to survive . ?

Stunt Pixels
05-23-2009, 08:00 AM
Meh... I think the problem stated when Universities started seeing students as business. The more business, the more funding, the more prestige, blah blah blah... Totally agree that your pieces of paper are irrelevant, only your reel matters, oh, and who you know....

jasonwestmas
05-23-2009, 08:05 AM
Onlinerender, Education isn't over rated if you put it to good use. You also don't need to get it from a school or even pay for it. It's the quality of the education, the context and where you get it from that counts the most. To say you don't need to be educated as much as you need to obtain skill and talent is only a very small part of the picture. Education is often times intended to provide direction and passion to your life which in turn should improve your skills and talent, not slow it down. To think that when you go to a place of study it is only a place to obtain skills is not true. Am I saying that any old school or place of education is good for you as an individual. . .No but there are little small corners that you can extract very empowering information from which will provoke and inspire you to become the creative person you want to be. That is the bigger picture of life.

jasonwestmas
05-23-2009, 08:06 AM
Meh... I think the problem stated when Universities started seeing students as business. The more business, the more funding, the more prestige, blah blah blah...

Exactly, but education isn't always that way nor does it have to be.

OnlineRender
05-23-2009, 08:22 AM
just out of interest , i have been given the chance to go back to my original college and help /teach the jnrs out with LW once a week , is there advanced courses hosted by NT in the UK , i would love to see the NT staff show me hows its done in an official envoriment ?
ive asked this before in another thread but i didnt get a solid answer !

Captain Obvious
05-23-2009, 10:23 AM
I have precisely zero education, and I don't think I've ever been asked about it in a job interview. They usually find out a bit later and go you never went to uni?

OnlineRender
05-23-2009, 11:47 AM
I have precisely zero education, and I don't think I've ever been asked about it in a job interview. They usually find out a bit later and go you never went to uni?

I think you will find alot of artist like that ! just raw talent .

Captain Obvious
05-23-2009, 11:54 AM
I think you will find alot of artist like that ! just raw talent .
"Raw talent"? No, not really. I have no education in 3D graphics, but I have still studied it. The difference being that I got mine for free, it was without a teacher or a class, and I ended up without a diploma. It's not like I just sat down in front of Lightwave and knew how to use it.

Nicolas Jordan
05-23-2009, 12:25 PM
I wouldn't sit around waiting for core if I were you, but I'll keep my opinions on that to myself.

:agree: For those who feel they really have the time and money to throw at the Core thing that's great but I decided that I am better off spending my time learning Blender and exploring the new features in Lightwave 9.6. It's fun being a beta tester but I really don't care to pay for it until it's a proven production ready product. Anyways back to the education thing. I am getting off topic.

Nicolas Jordan
05-23-2009, 01:12 PM
In my experience going to a 3D school didn't help me much except for maybe a few connections. I paid $14,000 tuition for a 9 month 3D course that taught mostly Maya. I ended up falling back on Lightwave anyways and learning more Lightwave in my spare time for 5 years after I got out of school. I ended up working lots of crappy convenience store jobs and stuff until I finally hooked up with a local company that does arch viz. My experience has made me a bit wiser and I don't have as much respect for formal education as I once did.

For anyone wanting to take schooling for 3D it might be worth it under the right circumstances. If you have a really good instructor with tons of industry experience and students are consistently putting out good reels and getting hired when they are done then it might be worth it but in the vast majority of cases it isn't worth the money and time. For anyone wanting to get a jump start in 3D I recommend taking a part time class that is simply an introduction to 3D and then buying books and training cds to learn more during spare time.

If I got the chance to do it over again I would not have went to school at all and would have just spent lots of my spare time learning since that's where I ended up learning the most anyway. I would have saved $14,000 tuition and $10,000 in living expenses had I not gone to school.

Cageman
05-23-2009, 02:16 PM
"Raw talent"? No, not really. I have no education in 3D graphics, but I have still studied it. The difference being that I got mine for free, it was without a teacher or a class, and I ended up without a diploma. It's not like I just sat down in front of Lightwave and knew how to use it.

First, lets not confuse education (as in going to school) with self teaching. Self teaching is something that is an ongoing process that never stops, so in that sense, I am studying 3D all the day when at work and all the time I'm doodling around with my personal projects. Self teaching is very important when going to any of those educations avaliable out there as well. But what those schools can offer (depending on which school) is a nice road into the industry. Not at all as easy if you have been spending 2 years at home without actually knowing anyone who is inside the industry.

Secondly, learning how an application works has very little to do with raw talent in the sense of creating content. I say this because what you said sounded like the talent would be to learn the app, not what makes good topology for deformation (as an example).

Learning new apps could of course be a talent in itself, but I think that in this case, raw talent was used to refer to people who are extremely good and fast when creating content once they have learned the toolset. I say this because I have seen that even though people know every button in an application, they still lack the talent to make anything usefull with their knowledge.

This is why larger companies generaly are uninterrested in what package you may have used when creating your reel; if the stuff is topnotch they want you because of your talent, not because you've learned what buttons to push. Smaller companies may require some buttonpushing knowledge in app x (ontop of actual talent), because they need to hire someone who can hit the ground running.

If I was a recruiter, and end up with two reels that are matching in terms of quality and content, but one of them would have been self tought, the other would have gone to a high profile education, I would probably pick the one who is self tought.

The reasons:

1. The guy from an education should always be able to produce content that is much better on all respects compared to someone who is doodling alone at home on their spare time.

2. It tells me a whole lot more about the persons drive and interrest if he/she has done something by him/herself at home compared to being in a class where teachers and classmates are avaliable for critic but still only produce halfassed, medicore stuff.

3. The guy from the education probably have alot more hooks into the industry so I simply want to give the home-alone dude/dudette a break.

:)

Dexter2999
05-23-2009, 02:47 PM
Not trying to stir the pot here but formal education has an upside (huge) and a downside (pretty darn big).

On many (notice I didn't say ALL) demo reels I have seen from students, almost all of them have been class assignments. So, you will see many similar reels, not identical but similar.

I believe that a course imposes guidlines and a structure that speeds the learning process by placing demands on the student. This is great for the learning process. However, when it comes to doing independent projects for the demo reel to set themselves apart there are no such demands. When left to their own devices the work can decline or stop altogether.

Also, I am self taught through DVD's and books. I do spinny logo stuff. Baby stuff really. But if I had the money I would dearly love to go to DAVE School. The accelerated learning and the staff there offer an opportunity for those willing to push themselves.

probiner
05-23-2009, 02:57 PM
Lol im the education boy and the "self-tought". Cause they teach you nothing technicaly in college. All i know it's 80% learned from being at home testing stuff and testing...
And i'm not the only one that does like this, since many want to make more advanced stuff, while being a "high-profile student" (whata...).

So the 2 guys could easly be one, belive me. I (like some of me collegues) missed a lot of classes to learn stuff that my pears didn't even imagine. But if that comes back to the educational projects, its a win-win. The only problem is that you read less and see less than you could have done.

Thats why i think that from 15-18 you should go to a Technical course, see if its that you really want. It is? Good.
Go to college if you want to be a theorical guy, or go to the industry if you want to be a man of the job. Do both if you are eager of experience as you are of knowledge and experimenting and become a monster of the stuff :D (i know a few cases like this, great people)

Cheers



On many (notice I didn't say ALL) demo reels I have seen from students, almost all of them have been class assignments. So, you will see many similar reels, not identical but similar.


Wrong... Not my reel at least.
In college, at least mine. Ppl don't give you problems to solve. You get the problems and the solution.
So each problem is different for each student and the solutions are way different. Criativity is up. Thecnique is down. So no, they won't be even similar, belive me.

Captain Obvious
05-23-2009, 06:04 PM
But what those schools can offer (depending on which school) is a nice road into the industry. Not at all as easy if you have been spending 2 years at home without actually knowing anyone who is inside the industry.
Yes, that's true. And it gives you a few years to sit and do your showreel without having to justify spending so much time doing something you're not getting paid for. :)


First, lets not confuse education (as in going to school) with self teaching. Self teaching is something that is an ongoing process that never stops, so in that sense, I am studying 3D all the day when at work and all the time I'm doodling around with my personal projects.
I'm not confusing the two, I'm just not very good at communicating when I have a hang over. :p



Secondly, learning how an application works has very little to do with raw talent in the sense of creating content. I say this because what you said sounded like the talent would be to learn the app, not what makes good topology for deformation (as an example).
I used it as analogy for not being able to sit down in front of a canvas and putting my ideas on to it as I would want to, without having learned how to do it first. In that sense, sitting down in front of Lightwave would be pretty much the same thing.




Learning new apps could of course be a talent in itself, but I think that in this case, raw talent was used to refer to people who are extremely good and fast when creating content once they have learned the toolset. I say this because I have seen that even though people know every button in an application, they still lack the talent to make anything usefull with their knowledge.
Yes, perhaps, but I often see people using "raw talent" as some sort of externalisation of their own lack of skill. The whole oh it's no wonder I'm not as good as you — I don't have your raw talent sort of thing, which really annoys me.

Stooch
05-23-2009, 06:50 PM
See you guys in a couple of months :D

i doubt it.

OnlineRender
05-24-2009, 03:21 AM
i doubt it.

Stooch Your reels /website amazing , big clients , excellent renders 100% pro .
see thats were i want to be in 10years time ,how long have you been in this game ?

/\ thats why i went to do stuff for xna , my student reel didnt cut it ,its very linear and has that seen it done it look .dont get me wrong it has that spark for about 10 seconds ,but still dosnt cut ,not against stuff like Stooch's ,thats just mind blowing !

Stooch
05-24-2009, 03:59 PM
Stooch Your reels /website amazing , big clients , excellent renders 100% pro .
see thats were i want to be in 10years time ,how long have you been in this game ?

/\ thats why i went to do stuff for xna , my student reel didnt cut it ,its very linear and has that seen it done it look .dont get me wrong it has that spark for about 10 seconds ,but still dosnt cut ,not against stuff like Stooch's ,thats just mind blowing !

you are entirely too kind lol. thanks.

yeah started in 95. so its been a while :)

wow just realised, im 28 so thats half of my life spent doing CG

DiedonD
05-25-2009, 12:19 AM
you are entirely too kind lol. thanks.

yeah started in 95. so its been a while :)

wow just realised, im 28 so thats half of my life spent doing CG

You trying to make all of us here jealous Stooch? ;)

akademus
05-25-2009, 01:25 AM
you are entirely too kind lol. thanks.

yeah started in 95. so its been a while :)

wow just realised, im 28 so thats half of my life spent doing CG

Similar here. Started in 1996 and 29 now. Jeez, we are kind of old youth :)

OnlineRender
05-25-2009, 01:52 AM
Lol in 1995 i was just starting high school , infact i still remember my MEGACD ,32 bits of sheer power .I suppose making levels for Quake would coun't as CG ,but im relativley new to 3D scene ! time to work my socks off !

jin choung
05-25-2009, 02:52 AM
i disagree with the premise of this thread. but it's close.

- EDUCATION MEANS NOTHING - FALSE

in actuality

- EDUCATION DOES *NOT* MEAN EVERYTHING - TRUE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUT/AND

education is NOT just about this or any other career. it's self improvement. it's learning the ABILITY TO LEARN. it's a time of luxury that precious few human beings get to develop a wide base of knowledge and experience. it is a mediated and safe environment to expand your horizons.

even though i wasted a lot of my time, i cherish my experience in university and feel that it has contributed not just to my earning potential but my life.

jin

Stooch
05-25-2009, 03:16 AM
Lol in 1995 i was just starting high school!

same here. lol. i didnt have much of a life in high school. i was an immigrant russian student so most of my peers were too busy spouting communist jokes than being my friends.

I get the last laugh though. since most of them are working dead end jobs and I cant be any happier with mine :)

and im not suprised taht you disagree with the entire spirit of this thread Jin. you are always at odds with everything.

but you are wrong. education is always only as good as the willpower of the student. at the end of the day, ANYTHING you do is going to be only as successful as you make it. Its not secret that most of the super successful enterpreneurs in this world are self made dropouts.

its not about talent, its about the "love" of what you do that matters. You dont need school. the school needs you. period.

in this industry, your diploma is literally ****. you cant argue around it. if you feel taht school improved you that much, then you must have been a piece of **** to begin with :)

OnlineRender
05-25-2009, 04:47 AM
|Again the whole reason i went into higher education , was to stay out of trouble , i meet some interesting people from many different cultures along the way , I'm glad i did otherwise I would never had the funds to buy the software that i need today. If the worse comes to the worse I will always have the little piece of paper that says , "hey well done you applied yourself for 4 years " Also i was never going to throw the chance away at an education from Scotland , after all we have one of the best educational systems in the world "fact" we lead the way in medical advances ,just a shame we rank very low in Animation ,but hey who cares ,ive picked a path now i need follow it threw .

I admire most people here , they have there lifes sorted and there path choosen and some guys /woman here are amazing in there field , I guess at first i was drawn in by the big lights and the aclaim of being in the film /games industry .

Now ive relazied that its not all its cracked up to be . You need to work hard and the expresion "practise makes perfect " Is certainly the case .

EDIT failed to mention , the main computing lecture at my UNI failed one of the people who went and setup the GTA brand , mwahaha bet you he feel sick now .

Dont judge a book by its front cover , at least read the contents page :)

Dont get me wrong ive learnet alot of the last 4 years ,but i feel slightly held back , mainly due to my own fault , inbetween i had a large family fast , or was it because i cant keep my pants on , either way i have what i would sadly call emotional baggage , Im not free and single to get up and leave , like i could when i was a tennager , but in-turn my wifes is so supportive and driven , she inspires me to better myself , not for finical gain , but as a complete person ,but maybe thats just the lawyer in her .

I see people leaving Uni that have there whole life in front of them but not a clue or direction were it will take them , which i suppose is not a bad thing , but im the opposite , i know were i want to be , i know what i need to do !

Theres no real point to the post , just like typin my feelings and perspective !

SAHiN
05-25-2009, 07:11 AM
Education can teach discipline and give guidance.

Sure, the reel is everything (or a portfolio for designers) and shows off talent one has. This talent is built up through many different methods, but usually one thing is prominent: practice, practice, practice.

Whether its drawing, painting, photoshop, or 3d, if you're not putting in the time creating something, you won't get the talent or the skills. Do a hundred before that one great piece.

The advice I give people is create a lot of small somethings, than to sit around thinking of one big project. This is how to become a master at something. (Weekly speed modeling challenges :) )

Education can give that practice environment. For me, it helped structure my life to practice, little assignments that buildup skills-- rather than me working at Starbucks, dreaming of making that one, huge project.

I don't think a talented kid who is eager to learn 3d needs some instructor to tell him he needs a practice.. I think thats the breaking point. While some of us spend 20 hours a day trying to create things or improve on our talent, others need someone to tell them they need practice.

My point is, one is better off watching tutorial videos created by people who are already in industry and learning than spending all their money and time on some fancy collage which will not get them a job in real world..

I also think this forum contains more information than any course could ever offer. Just read, ask and learn.

...and yes speed modeling challanges are good for newcomers.

jasonwestmas
05-25-2009, 07:38 AM
I don't think a talented kid who is eager to learn 3d needs some instructor to tell him he needs a practice.. I think thats the breaking point. While some of us spend 20 hours a day trying to create things or improve on our talent, others need someone to tell them they need practice.

My point is, one is better off watching tutorial videos created by people who are already in industry and learning than spending all their money and time on some fancy collage which will not get them a job in real world..

I also think this forum contains more information than any course could ever offer. Just read, ask and learn.

...and yes speed modeling challanges are good for newcomers.

The point of going to school is not to just learn skills. A school should be a kind of a mentor, not that it is all the time. There are many decisions to be made as an artist directionally and passionately speaking and a school is supposed to provide assistance for that. SO if learning skills is all one wants from a school I think they are wasting their money for sure.

OnlineRender
05-25-2009, 09:34 AM
I don't think there is a clear cut positive , " Ps you don't pay for a higher education in Scotland "
First was College 2 years of that was Interactive Multimedia , then another 2 at University 3D Animation & Digital Art, I have two main options /paths ? Become a PHD "doctor in the field " or firstly goto Teacher Trainning for 1 year and become a secondry school teacher in computing or Art . Then do a PHD later in life .

Either way i want that teaching element on my CV , secuirty more than anything .

But to my point , all Education "for me" was heres a pdf document , this is what software the industry use , go and learn , but in the proccess they show you how everything should be structured ,design and presented .

I didnt learn how to use Zbrush in any class , that was all personal and for the want to better myself , BVH import "properly " guys like splinegod helped me out with LW .

I have great respect to my teachers , some have a great track record behind them ,prestiege award ect , but very few times do you meet somebody that moves you .

ericsmith
05-25-2009, 09:54 AM
It seems to me that this thread is lumping all schools into one group. And that's not a very good way to look at it.

If you go to Animation Mentor, you're going to get a lot more for your money then if you do ITT's animation program.

It's true that a diploma means very little in this industry, but that's not the point. There are some really good schools out there, and the work of their students is consistantly excellent. And those students often have little problems finding a job after graduation.

Vancouver Film School, SCAD, Ringling, Animation Mentor, Otis Parsons, Art Center Pasedena... I'm sure there's more too. All of these places will give those with the raw potential an excellent education, not just in the technical, but more importantly, the artistic elements of this industry.

From my own personal experience, the art program at Santa Barbara's community college was extremely valuable. This was long before 3d was even available as a career (at least to the mainstream), but the foundation it gave me in art and design made a huge difference in my career. Not because of any piece of paper, but because of the skills and knowledge I obtained there.

Eric

glebe digital
05-25-2009, 10:12 AM
My guess is a lot of people believed the old lie: "Get a good education & that great job will follow"......it hardly ever works like that in the commercial world, might win you an internship [or a foot in the door at the bottom rung] but that's about it IMO.

Companies will always be biased towards individuals with a proven track record, or by a cohesive & very impressive display of EXACTLY the skillset they're looking for.......

The industry today is completely different to how it was when I got into 3D.......in 1989 there was no industry, there was hardly any software either.....
DTP was very new, there were no academic courses, the term 'multimedia' was yet to be coined.......there was no-one doing 3d [in the UK design industry that I knew about] so I could just invent the job description and convince my then boss that he should let me run with it.

I'm a firm believer that 'you make your own luck'.........a great academic record is just not enough, even when an industry is roaring........in times like these, I would not want to be starting out all over again.

Stooch
05-25-2009, 11:56 AM
SCAD

i went to scad.

stay away. they are there to rip you off. id go into details but i get pissed off every time i tjhink about it. stay away from scad folks. they are there to take your money. all the other bs they feed you is just BS.

ericsmith
05-25-2009, 12:08 PM
Hmm, that's interesting.

The only reason I included SCAD in that list was that I've seen several good CA demo reels from students just graduating, and talked to some of those students who had good things to say about the school.

Maybe it was just a fluke.

Eric

adamredwoods
05-25-2009, 12:56 PM
i went to scad.

stay away. they are there to rip you off. id go into details but i get pissed off every time i tjhink about it. stay away from scad folks. they are there to take your money. all the other bs they feed you is just BS.

I was looking at SCAD for MFA. Same thing? Anything specifically that you consider a rip off?

adamredwoods
05-25-2009, 01:01 PM
My point is, one is better off watching tutorial videos created by people who are already in industry and learning than spending all their money and time on some fancy collage which will not get them a job in real world..


Great for technical-only skills, but after a while a person needs good creative skills, too. It's harder to get creative skills off tutorials alone. This is where practice and mentors come in.

And why get creative skills? One could make a perfectly good living off technical-only skills. But the way I see the 3D market changing, people are doing more with less, which means creative skills need to be had with technical.

virtualcomposer
05-25-2009, 01:16 PM
I totally agree. I've never been asked once if I had a Master Degree or Bachelors even though I do. Two major things I've been asked every time in an interview are "What experience do you have" and "Do you have a reel?". Like clock work. In my opinion, education is WAAAAAAYYYYYYY overpriced and if you don't find a job within 6 months, you're forced to take a low paid or work two low paid jobs, if you can get them, to keep the loans from defaulting. Trust me, this is experience. I landed a great job as a graphic design artist because of my experience, knowledge of software, and putting my best on a reel. Another guy here helped me realize that it's better to put a 1 minutes reel that has really good stuff then a 5 minute reel with just ok stuff. Passion to learn and experience is what will land a job faster then any education. Don't get me wrong, I believe in education but most of what I know is through a passion to learn about 3D and 2D work, get involved with 3D discussion boards, memorize as many tutorials as possible and not being afraid to work for anyone. Even if they paid me $20 for something that took me 3 days to do, it was experience and I learned from it to make me better for the next project. Passion is the greatest educator in my book.

Stooch
05-25-2009, 01:29 PM
I was looking at SCAD for MFA. Same thing? Anything specifically that you consider a rip off?

just the way the treat you. total disrespect for students. they fudged up my credits and even though i had enough to graduate and walked during the ceremony. months after i sold off all of my stuff in savannah and moved out of town, they send me a little surprise... oh guess what dimitri you have to go back and take another class because one of your classes didnt count towards your degree! WTF. I took all of my classes under the oversight of guidance couselors! (all 6 of them due to high turnover). I had a review just prior graduation where they told me that i was all set...

so i said FU and just started my career. I dont need their POS degree. obviously things have worked out for me very well. and very little of my success has to do with scad. vast majority of it was because I love this stuff and work my *** off.

anyway, they absolutely treat you like a ***** there. bursars office is nasty and incompetent. they kept on making mistakes with my loan applications and charging bogus late fees when all of my stuff was sent on time and it was their own sheer incompetence that caused delays.

the school is located in a very poor area for our industry... go somewhere with a civilization, not the ghetto that is savannah. Its quaint charm will wear off in about 2 weeks. then you will enjoy the stink of papermills and the bums that litter the tiny town. its utterly boring there.

dont mistake the quality of the school by the quality of students that go there. if you want to have a kickass animation reel, take animation mentor.

if you are looking to go to scad to learn aesthetics and traditional arts... beware, the program is crap. the teachers i had were generally incompetent. there are better traditional schools out there.

scad is just big. so it has lots of people going through its ripoff machine. they are making a killing, however alot of my classmates arent doing much in this industry... sure there is a number of scad kids here in hollywood... the number is extremely small considering how many graduated.

scad gets two thumbs down from me. after all is said and done, they can keep their diploma, its not even worth wiping my *** with it.

jin choung
05-25-2009, 01:31 PM
oh, and to clarify, I'm talking about the virtues of a traditional 4 year university and a liberal arts type of education.

in regards to learning cg, when I started out, there basically were no classes for this stuff. everything I know I get from books that cost $25-$50 and my method is - on any given subject- 3 books by 3 different authors and a few months of magazine and web reading to get the zeitgeist.

I've seen a lot of students of the high priced cg schools come out with some awesome skill sets but I've also seen people who don't even have the chops or skills of an interested lay person.

so in terms of trade schools for cg, yeah, considering their costs and the availability of cheap books (not even a fan of DVDs! never purchased a single instructional DVD that didn't involve naked chicks-and such DVDs are of dubious "instructional" value...but nonetheless very...watchable) I'm not a strong proponent.

Jin

Titus
05-25-2009, 01:45 PM
I switched carrer in '97, selfthought like most people here and I'm finishing my first term in Animation Mentor, only now I have money to pay for this type of education (considering is way cheaper than other schools). I'm learning new work methods and improving my animation skills in a way I simply couldn't imagine, in one year my skills will be growing more than the last five years, that's for sure.

Stooch
05-25-2009, 01:50 PM
I switched carrer in '97, selfthought like most people here and I'm finishing my first term in Animation Mentor, only now I have money to pay for this type of education (considering is way cheaper than other schools). I'm learning new work methods and improving my animation skills in a way I simply couldn't imagine, in one year my skills will be growing more than the last five years, that's for sure.

your CG education and skills always improve exponentially. I have learned in the last 3months more than I have learned in the past 5 years. Your knowledge builds and multiplies on itself. good choice with animation mentor. thats the only school i will recommend. I know some of the mentors personally and they are industry pros with a wealth of knowledge. The most important thing you will get out of animation mentor is a proper and effective critique along with valuable advice that is built on industry experience.

another reason why i like animation mentor is because it doesnt waste your time will ********. Sure you can learn art history and aesthetics and other BS skills in college to "make you more well rounded" when in realit you will never need these skills and its just a way for them to occupy your time and charge you out the *** for it. I personally skipped as much of my BS classes as i could get away with and did just barely enough to squeak by. instead I focused on the real skills that will make me successful in the industry. I was probably an average student in the eyes of SCAD. Didnt make a blip on their radar. How ironic. lol. I cant help by laugh at the many "magna cum loads" that ended up amounting to 0 while "achieving" a gigantic debt burden. Way to go kids :) now enjoy your degree as you work at a gas station (litearlly i know people who stayed in savannah for years working BS jobs with their degrees... how sad)

virtualcomposer
05-25-2009, 01:55 PM
oh, and to clarify, I'm talking about the virtues of a traditional 4 year university and a liberal arts type of education.

in regards to learning cg, when I started out, there basically were no classes for this stuff. everything I know I get from books that cost $25-$50 and my method is - on any given subject- 3 books by 3 different authors and a few months of magazine and web reading to get the zeitgeist.

I've seen a lot of students of the high priced cg schools come out with some awesome skill sets but I've also seen people who don't even have the chops or skills of an interested lay person.

so in terms of trade schools for cg, yeah, considering their costs and the availability of cheap books (not even a fan of DVDs! never purchased a single instructional DVD that didn't involve naked chicks-and such DVDs are of dubious "instructional" value...but nonetheless very...watchable) I'm not a strong proponent.

Jin

Oh I remember the $50 Graphics books. After owning 5 of them I stopped buying them. I also agree that not everyone has the chops for animation. The mind has to work in that type of function naturally. I know for me I'm constantly obsevibg the world around me trying to visialize the physics and how I could recreate it. It's a passion I tell you! LOL

Stooch
05-25-2009, 02:09 PM
the more i think about it. the more i realize how much places like scad hurt this industry.

they take in a huge amount of hopeful and naive students (And parents) and then they are saddled with huge debt and are forced to scramble, often for little to no pay! so studios naturally take advantage and kick real professionals out on their asses and replace them with hordes of poor shmucks who will work for nothing while making mediocre output. and if anyone thinks im making this up. Sony Imageworks recently did just that! the laid off all the pros on production and replaced them all with fresh college graduates. and from what i hear it didnt go too well for them...

there should be a more prominent effort done in this and other CG communities to discourage this practice. The only people who have a chance of success are the ones who are motivated enough to do this without outside encouragement.

face it. if you feel that you need a professor to ride your *** every day so taht you get your stuff done on time, then you simply dont have the chops for this industry. time to consider a different career.

SAHiN
05-25-2009, 02:36 PM
the more i think about it. the more i realize how much places like scad hurt this industry.

they take in a huge amount of hopeful and naive students (And parents) and then they are saddled with huge debt and are forced to scramble, often for little to no pay! so studios naturally take advantage and kick real professionals out on their asses and replace them with hordes of poor shmucks who will work for nothing while making mediocre output. and if anyone thinks im making this up. Sony Imageworks recently did just that! the laid off all the pros on production and replaced them all with fresh college graduates. and from what i hear it didnt go too well for them...

there should be a more prominent effort done in this and other CG communities to discourage this practice. The only people who have a chance of success are the ones who are motivated enough to do this without outside encouragement.

face it. if you feel that you need a professor to ride your *** every day so taht you get your stuff done on time, then you simply dont have the chops for this industry. time to consider a different career.

Very well said ! :thumbsup:

LW_Will
05-25-2009, 02:42 PM
I think this all boils down to the 10,000 hour rule... forgot who came up with this... if you do ANYTHING for 10,000 hours (50h/week=4years roughly) you become and "expert" at it.

You should go to collage, you should go out and see the world. You should take every class you can. You should work as hard as you can at your craft, whatever that it.

And you should always be diligent in keeping up with what is going on.

That's how you learn.

Titus
05-25-2009, 02:47 PM
the more i think about it. the more i realize how much places like scad hurt this industry.

they take in a huge amount of hopeful and naive students (And parents) and then they are saddled with huge debt and are forced to scramble, often for little to no pay! so studios naturally take advantage and kick real professionals out on their asses and replace them with hordes of poor shmucks who will work for nothing while making mediocre output. and if anyone thinks im making this up. Sony Imageworks recently did just that! the laid off all the pros on production and replaced them all with fresh college graduates. and from what i hear it didnt go too well for them...

there should be a more prominent effort done in this and other CG communities to discourage this practice. The only people who have a chance of success are the ones who are motivated enough to do this without outside encouragement.

face it. if you feel that you need a professor to ride your *** every day so taht you get your stuff done on time, then you simply dont have the chops for this industry. time to consider a different career.

Do you think this is happened only to this industry? My mother is a retired accountant (now an acupuncturist), when she started it was a good way to make a living, now most prossionals hardly earn enough. And my grandfather was a selfthought accountant in the first half of the past century, it was replaced by youngsters with title.

virtualcomposer
05-25-2009, 04:10 PM
face it. if you feel that you need a professor to ride your *** every day so taht you get your stuff done on time, then you simply dont have the chops for this industry. time to consider a different career.

I think that goes for any industry.

Stunt Pixels
05-25-2009, 04:18 PM
face it. if you feel that you need a professor to ride your *** every day so taht you get your stuff done on time, then you simply dont have the chops for this industry. time to consider a different career.

Naah. You can't cover it all with a blanket statement. Depends on the institution, and what you mean by animation. If you go somewhere good then you are around good students who teach and learn from each other, and have great lecturers. If you go somewhere crappy....

To put it in context, I don't think their time at Cal Arts would be considered wasted by John Lasseter, Brad Bird, Andrew Stanton, Pete Doctor...

On the other hand, I can think of a number of institutions where the student walk out with nothing other than student debt...

Stooch
05-25-2009, 05:05 PM
Do you think this is happened only to this industry? My mother is a retired accountant (now an acupuncturist), when she started it was a good way to make a living, now most prossionals hardly earn enough. And my grandfather was a selfthought accountant in the first half of the past century, it was replaced by youngsters with title.

of course i dont! but why digress?

Stooch
05-25-2009, 05:07 PM
Naah. You can't cover it all with a blanket statement. Depends on the institution, and what you mean by animation. If you go somewhere good then you are around good students who teach and learn from each other, and have great lecturers. If you go somewhere crappy..

first of all... i just did.

second. yes there are great institutions where you learn from students and knowledgeable professors. as stated numerous times, its called "animation mentor".


infact if you want to talk to good students, all you have to do is go on any CG forum - they all have their share of "good students" who are willing to share their knowledge.

If you want to see a good lecture, go buy a DVD from digital tutors. Point being - the cost/benefits of a given educational source. I pray that this is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Stunt Pixels
05-25-2009, 05:35 PM
Point being - the cost/benefits of a given educational source. I pray that this is not a difficult concept to grasp.
Sorry, I totally missed your previous point about the quality of the educational institution. I agree totally. I'm actually tackling this all the time. People often refer their kids and friends to me to ask about where to study animation. There's only two places in Australia I'd recommend, the rest seem like just money hungry institutions.

One of the most prominent places in Australia to study offers a Masters in Animation. But NONE of the lecturers have ANY experience in animation, and they charge a lot of money for the course. So yeah, I'm always going on about researching the people who teach, the students you will be studying with, and the output the graduates produce. It's just that most people nowadays seems more interested in the institution's name on the piece of paper they'll get than the education they receive...

adamredwoods
05-25-2009, 07:52 PM
another reason why i like animation mentor is because it doesnt waste your time will ********. Sure you can learn art history and aesthetics and other BS skills in college to "make you more well rounded" when in realit you will never need these skills and its just a way for them to occupy your time and charge you out the *** for it.

I think too much focus is on the technical aspect of CG animation, rather than the aesthetic quality. Sure, one can learn the software through books and dvds, but its not going to teach anyone how to make it look great. That's aesthetics. While some people think aesthetics can't be taught, I believe it can, but not without exercises and practice.

Animation Mentor is highly respected because it teaches aesthetics, too, not just technical.
ie, "creating a walk cycle" vs "creating character within a walk cycle".

SAHiN
05-25-2009, 08:27 PM
The bottom line is, no matter how great your institution was, no employer wants to see your diplomas.... Show me your reel to prove how good your instutition was.
In my opinion a good institution would know, if a student goes out in real world, he will be asked a demo reel to prove his talent..
If your school is sending you out saying you are ready without getting you to complete your demo reel, that institution is clueless of this industry, therefore it doesnt just suck but it also swallows !

virtualcomposer
05-25-2009, 09:09 PM
The bottom line is, no matter how great your institution was, no employer wants to see your diplomas.... Show me your reel to prove how good your instutition was.
In my opinion a good institution would know, if a student goes out in real world, he will be asked a demo reel to prove his talent..
If your school is sending you out saying you are ready without getting you to complete your demo reel, that institution is clueless of this industry, therefore it doesnt just suck but it also swallows !

That's real world talk right there. Nothing wrong with education but nearly 100% of the employers are going to want to see a reel, what you can do, and also how well you get along with your coworkers. Nothing worse then working with someone who has a bad attitude or things they know it all.

BigHache
05-25-2009, 11:15 PM
the more i think about it. the more i realize how much places like scad hurt this industry.
It's unfortunate as a friend of mine just this month finished her semester at SCAD only to find out that the classes she needs to complete the degree now won't be available for an entire year, when they told her those classes would absolutely be ready by this time. They just flat out lied to her and now she's transferring to another university. Way to go SCAD!

DiedonD
05-26-2009, 12:06 AM
So... As stated above, contrary to common belief, a diploma, a higher education in art doesnt do much for you in itself, but its you who can do something by that experience. And that for such an experience, you dont neccessarily need a university, but a 10k quality hours of practice in peace.

I didnt went to any art school. So, I guess I havent lost much then :hey:

Now the problem is time. How to do 10k of LW in peace! Thats the problem troubling me these days.

You must invest time in other things, so as to cover expenses. And this isnt a problem of this century neither. Even the wild prehistoric man, MUSTve went hunting for food, before he would allow oneself to enjoy some of that 10k quality hours in LW ;)

JBT27
05-26-2009, 04:09 AM
the more i think about it. the more i realize how much places like scad hurt this industry.

they take in a huge amount of hopeful and naive students (And parents) and then they are saddled with huge debt and are forced to scramble, often for little to no pay! so studios naturally take advantage and kick real professionals out on their asses and replace them with hordes of poor shmucks who will work for nothing while making mediocre output. and if anyone thinks im making this up. Sony Imageworks recently did just that! the laid off all the pros on production and replaced them all with fresh college graduates. and from what i hear it didnt go too well for them...

there should be a more prominent effort done in this and other CG communities to discourage this practice. The only people who have a chance of success are the ones who are motivated enough to do this without outside encouragement.

face it. if you feel that you need a professor to ride your *** every day so taht you get your stuff done on time, then you simply dont have the chops for this industry. time to consider a different career.

Re-quoting this for complete agreement. I never went to uni.....back in the day, you couldn't do any of this stuff at college, not a jot. The only mention I saw of 'special effects' in any curriculum was a course at the London International Film School that included blue-screen and optical printing, and that would be 1979. And looking at the rest of that course, I seriously doubted the effects 'modules' were particularly heavyweight tech ..... aside from the term fee which I recall was £2,000 .....

The point I'm making is that in that world back then, anyone who wanted to get into 'special visual effects' had to be self-driven to do it, and then had to find a way to break into the industry and start getting paid for it. By definition, if you were that type and had that passion for that career, and displayed some talent for it, then you stood a reasonable (but not guaranteed) chance of getting in.

That's the point: by default, those who might want the career, but don't have that personality, will naturally fall away and go do something else. Whereas with college/uni, those who want the career just sign on and do the course, and maybe then discover it wasn't for them, when it's time and alot of money wasted. Or that there is no place for them anyway.

It's hard to say any of this without appearing disparaging, and I mean no offense to anyone.

It's too late for now, because the system is well-established and people enjoy the apparent security of establishment learning. But I will always maintain that this is one career where school is inappropriate. If anything, self-learning and studios operating the old apprentice system is far better, in my opinion.

Self-learning weeds out the ones who can't or won't, ultimately, and the apprentice system turns the remainder into professionals. Let's be honest, teaching yourself in this field has never been cheaper or easier, and if you have the aptitude and dedication to get through that, then following it with learning on the job, in an actual production environment surrounded by veterans, should, theoretically see you into that career that you want. Because by that stage, you will know for absolute sure that that is what you wanted.

Like archaeology, cgi is a very niche market and career, not requiring an awful lot of people. Yet so many seem to want in, and there are plenty welcoming them to school when actually they don't stand a chance in the industry.

The demo-reel/portfolio is king for sure, along with the person that you are, but you really don't need to school to create one. And actually, I'm often more curious to see the work of someone who hasn't mixed with others too much, and has that passion to make the pictures; they're the ones to watch, they always were.

Julian.

AbnRanger
05-28-2009, 03:19 AM
Freaking open it up and learn it man. It's not doing any good sitting in the box. I wouldn't sit around waiting for core if I were you, but I'll keep my opinions on that to myself...Exactly

meshpig
05-28-2009, 04:58 AM
its not about talent, its about the "love" of what you do that matters. You dont need school. the school needs you. period.

in this industry, your diploma is literally ****. you cant argue around it. if you feel that school improved you that much, then you must have been a piece of **** to begin with :)

Yep, that's the one not only in this industry. In "actuality" if you want to keep on loving what you do it helps to steer clear of all the illusory "self improvement" educational institutions promise.

m

meshpig
05-28-2009, 06:02 AM
So... Even the wild prehistoric man, MUSTve went hunting for food, before he would allow oneself to enjoy some of that 10k quality hours in LW ;)

That's interesting. I imagine they ( the wild men of pre history..??) probably had a lot more time for LW than they needed for survival...

Stooch
05-29-2009, 03:52 PM
It's unfortunate as a friend of mine just this month finished her semester at SCAD only to find out that the classes she needs to complete the degree now won't be available for an entire year, when they told her those classes would absolutely be ready by this time. They just flat out lied to her and now she's transferring to another university. Way to go SCAD!

thats typical CLASSIC scad! sorry to hear man, i thought they would have at least improved in the 6 years after i left that dump.

funny story. some kids were so disgusted with scad that they started a website that basically explained their experience with SCAd it was called "SCADSUCKS.com" lol. scad ended up getting lawyers involved and there are rumors that scad settled with them out of court.

if you dont believe me, just type in the domain! it now forwards you to scad.edu! hahahahahahahaha

Andyjaggy
05-29-2009, 04:13 PM
Wow. I just googled SCAD. There are a lot nightmare stories out there about it.

wacom
05-29-2009, 11:07 PM
First- You get out of school what you put into it pending your teachers are good enough and more importantly your fellow students aren't lazy and hopeless.

There are a lot of lazy people out there- teachers AND students.

Second- if your fellow students sucked then you most likely didn't get the greatest benefit from schooling: all the life long good networking with friends who are like minded and in overlapping professions.

I owe a lot of my work that I get to a good friend I met in college. Granted, if I didn't have the skills then he wouldn't give me the work, but still...who ya know...live it, learn it...well I just try to get used to it! IMHO if you can't be a social person in this "buisness" then you better be really talented and shine in the dark. How many people lurk in dark rooms doing 3D...and never showing anyone their work or talking about it to real humans outside those four sides of their LCD? Boy I wonder why they don't get work!

Third- Schooling can help you learn how you learn. Sounds stupid but I swear it works if people actually already like to learn. If you're uber self motivated though...well then maybe you don't need school...but chances are your head space is small and cramped when it comes to concepts and ideas IMHO and you're only ever going to be a really good tool for someone else more gifted at conceptual thoughts and dealing with other's ideas. Besides- does school ever end for a 3D artist or artist in general? It's a life long learning process- hopefully till you die of a ripe, nasty old age!

OH, no offense, but in all my experience the Art Institutes (baring the one in Chicago for grad students) is a waste of time and money. Half the teachers there are a joke, and it's full of either naive kids or worse, lazy naive nuvo-riche-kiddies...YIKES! These places pump out debt laden, concept lacking, skill lacking kids like a mother termite does eggs- I find it disgusting.

OK- but who says you need to go to school and get a degree? I went back to school for some design training (mainly to officially learn what things like kerning are and that thing called "typography" along with Illustrator and PS) and it really helped out. I can see going to a figure drawing course being helpful too etc. So why not abuse the system and just sit in when you can etc. and not get so debt laden? In the meantime you can buy some good learning material for 3D and get going- so much of the 3D taught in schools is worthless...

DiedonD
05-30-2009, 12:11 AM
That's interesting. I imagine they ( the wild men of pre history..??) probably had a lot more time for LW than they needed for survival...


How so? They had to group up, organize hunting, aswell as take care of crops! I know that the crop handling came later on. But surely it all took time away from LW back then in prehistoric times!

meshpig
05-30-2009, 04:50 AM
How so? They had to group up, organize hunting, aswell as take care of crops! I know that the crop handling came later on. But surely it all took time away from LW back then in prehistoric times!

Yes, you have to take into account the differences between the hunter/gatherers and the earliest forms of settlement where agriculture became possible. You sort of still have to today.

- Cave painting for example, to me suggests an activity not related to any kind of "organized" time as you would expect in the early settlements like Çatalhöyük

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Çatalhöyük

Cave painting too wasn't the sort of LW the settled European mesolithic people's engaged. It dropped off once the idea of settlement took hold permanently probably around the same time as the "Venus of Willendorf" ( which heralds the new stone age revolution) appeared and then reappears all over the planet again with fugitive cultures like the Indigenous Australian's where cave paintings are dated as recently as 1000 yrs ago.

OK, so I'm a romantic.

m:)

DiedonD
05-30-2009, 06:43 AM
Indeed

With hunting, man had more time to do arts.

But sometime afterwards, he tried agroculture, and that occupied more time!

There are theories as to why would man decide to spent more time on food, when he had the hunting ordeal, but all those theories are suggestive.

In other words. If you want more time to do LW, you need to stop doing whatever it is that you may do, and go out there for hunting. A good kill may last for a few days. Those would be golden precious days in doing LW. Afterwards... since it has to be cheap, a bow and arrow could do just fine, for another kill. And so on and so forth.

In essence were trying to cover the mistake that the pre-historic man did by doing agroculture.

Hmmm... But whatabout electricity for the computer that holds LW?

Wonder if the power station would approve electricity for animal horn compensation?!

wacom
05-30-2009, 08:13 AM
A lot of new research points to the fact that, while our ancestors on average worked harder when they "worked" they worked far fewer hours per day, per week, per year.

In many parts of Europe during medieval times I think it was something like people only worked 2-3 days on average!

Must be the cost of health care?

I've also read some theories that much of our brain power and thinking time isn't so much geared, or wasn't, around hunting and gathering, crops etc., but actually spent trying to figure out ways not to have other humans kill you. (Please don't get all "inner Bonobo" on me- there is new evidence that those apes kill each other and fight almost as much as the Chimps- in fact they might be more into torture.)

So once you organize and somebody is watching your back for you for a part of the day, you now have the mental time to go into debt going to school!

dweinkauf
05-30-2009, 09:03 AM
I didn't intend to throw my two cents worth in, but here goes......

There are so many good comments in this thread about education worth noting. I had no formal training in art (mine was all self-taught), but I was able to join a university art program and establish one of the top animation programs in the country.

Our graduates have no problem getting great jobs in the industry right after (and sometimes, before) graduation. They not only work as CG artists and animators, but as directors (Star Wars - Clone Wars), writers, supervising animators (Ice Age II + III), background artists (Harry Potter series) and other positions.

Our computer animation courses are taught with LW, but our graduates have no trouble migrating to Maya when getting jobs. Our staff consists of a Disney features animator, an emmy-award winning LW computer animator who was one of our graduates and who worked in the industry for 11 years, a 3D animator who worked at the Vinton studio and others. We don't just train students to be animators, but well-rounded educated working artists who can solve problems.

In addition to traditional art and animation courses, students are required to take courses in physics, psychology, philosophy, writing, literature, and history among others. Our curriculum is tough and the students know they have to work their butts off to stay in. By the time they graduate, they have to have a well-rounded education and, yes, a great reel to take around.

We continue to get a lot of transfer students from a regional Art Institute because they know our curriculum offers a lot more than just software training and button pushing. While many of our graduates start as traditional key or computer animators, several move beyond those jobs because of their ability as working artists to solve problems.

Having said all this, I can only paraphrase what has been said in this thread before that you get out of any educational experience (community college, university, self-taught - whatever) what you put into it. The great animation director Chuck Jones never finished formal education through high school, but was one of the most well-read and self-educated men I ever had the pleasure of knowing. I can't tell you how honored we were to award him his first honorary doctorate for his lifetime of work and achievements. So, what's up, Doc?

meshpig
05-30-2009, 09:06 AM
Indeed

With hunting, man had more time to do arts.

But sometime afterwards, he tried agroculture, and that occupied more time!



Yes, something like that but "finding the time" is a modern concept.


m:)

OnlineRender
05-30-2009, 03:33 PM
the point is :your still feked ,look at what ive gained , exactly nothing ! except i know I have a bit of paper

wacom
05-31-2009, 09:12 AM
the point is :your still feked ,look at what ive gained , exactly nothing ! except i know I have a bit of paper

Well what are you going to do about it now besides dissuade people from going to school?

Here is a lesson from life I've learned- suck it up and move on- do the best with what you've got right now- the past is just that- the past.

If you can't find jack in your schooling that has gotten you to this point then I'm sorry- but if you can find even a bit- try and make the most of it. If you had any contacts then try and keep them- maintain that relationship.

At a good school good teachers and staff would reward a good student with more than just a pat on the back and a piece of paper- you'd be gaining your first leg up on a professional career and would want to keep those people in your circle. They open doors for you that they have since they should also be in contact with people in their profession.

However- the fact that you got all great grades either shows that you worked really hard, or that you school was jack- sorry I'm betting it's the later. Art and design school should be HARD IMHO. The easier it is the less likely you are to get a thing out of it and need to drop it!

School is "easy" though compared to regular life (what ever that is) if you work hard and are dedicated there is an obvious ladder to climb. Regular life for me is more like zero structure in which you're allowed to build as choatic a mess as you want and live in.

Again- pick your self up off the floor and move on- if you've got skills and there is no work where you are then what were you thinking? You either need to get more "general" art and design skills under you belt or literally MOVE away and get a job where there is one.

Yeah, I'd love to be working on the next greatest movie- but where I work there isn't much of that going on sans a few places- be more creative in how you find work and park your ego if you want to stay in this business (that does not mean loose sight of your goals BTW)- besides you never know where your next job might take you.

Personally I love 3D enough so that even if I'm just doing a render of a simple product or simple animation the process is very rewarding- gotta love the process in anything if your going to keep with it ya know!

Maybe it's the "yank" in me that's just sick of hearing you whine to no end- you've filed your complaint- you've been heard, but guess what? It's not getting you closer to your goal and it isn't going to put food on the table- that's still up to you if you want to use your skills.

OnlineRender
05-31-2009, 09:15 AM
k

geo_n
05-31-2009, 10:14 AM
Here you dont necessarily need a 4 year degree in graphics to get a job in this field. A regular course even language studies or sociology can open doors to graphic design since the companies will train you(give you books at work to read that's all). But you must show them that you will learn it and leave the office after 11pm everyday and catch the last train :D or you're out. This is entry level btw. The TD usually already have atleast 5 years exp and a bunch of certification from short course cg schools. They are mostly generalists in using max, maya,lw, etc and not just specialized modeller, riggers, animators, scripters, etc. So yeah they go to school!

Andyjaggy
05-31-2009, 04:36 PM
Well what are you going to do about it now besides dissuade people from going to school?

Here is a lesson from life I've learned- suck it up and move on- do the best with what you've got right now- the past is just that- the past.

If you can't find jack in your schooling that has gotten you to this point then I'm sorry- but if you can find even a bit- try and make the most of it. If you had any contacts then try and keep them- maintain that relationship.

At a good school good teachers and staff would reward a good student with more than just a pat on the back and a piece of paper- you'd be gaining your first leg up on a professional career and would want to keep those people in your circle. They open doors for you that they have since they should also be in contact with people in their profession.

However- the fact that you got all great grades either shows that you worked really hard, or that you school was jack- sorry I'm betting it's the later. Art and design school should be HARD IMHO. The easier it is the less likely you are to get a thing out of it and need to drop it!

School is "easy" though compared to regular life (what ever that is) if you work hard and are dedicated there is an obvious ladder to climb. Regular life for me is more like zero structure in which you're allowed to build as choatic a mess as you want and live in.

Again- pick your self up off the floor and move on- if you've got skills and there is no work where you are then what were you thinking? You either need to get more "general" art and design skills under you belt or literally MOVE away and get a job where there is one.

Yeah, I'd love to be working on the next greatest movie- but where I work there isn't much of that going on sans a few places- be more creative in how you find work and park your ego if you want to stay in this business (that does not mean loose sight of your goals BTW)- besides you never know where your next job might take you.

Personally I love 3D enough so that even if I'm just doing a render of a simple product or simple animation the process is very rewarding- gotta love the process in anything if your going to keep with it ya know!

Maybe it's the "yank" in me that's just sick of hearing you whine to no end- you've filed your complaint- you've been heard, but guess what? It's not getting you closer to your goal and it isn't going to put food on the table- that's still up to you if you want to use your skills.

Haha. Well said. No point getting all worked up and bitter over it, it's not like you were forced to go to college. Make the best of it and move on. :) The successful people are those who learn from it and move on, the ones who dwell and moan and think they have been treated unfair seldom get anywhere. Nothing personal against you, just an observation, and something I need to remember as well.

Stooch
05-31-2009, 06:29 PM
Haha. Well said. No point getting all worked up and bitter over it, it's not like you were forced to go to college. Make the best of it and move on. :) The successful people are those who learn from it and move on, the ones who dwell and moan and think they have been treated unfair seldom get anywhere. Nothing personal against you, just an observation, and something I need to remember as well.

actually there are very good points about being worked up and bitter. they were very well made already and it would take a retard not to see em.

ill repeat it again, colleges hurt this industry and the amount of debt you end up with considering the return should give you a very good reason to be bitter. that and the astonishinly bad treatment of the students that pay ridiculous money to get this so called education. especially by SCAD. just look around and read some of the horror stories, mine is one of many.

im not here to have a philosophical debate about the value of education for your life. im here to explain the negatives I have personally experienced at a particular school and hopefully spared someone else from experiencing the same. I am also pointing out that my observations are not isolated considering the title of this thread.

if you have a story of a college that has done everything right, by all means. just dont downplay the experiences of others, idealism is nice but not when you are spending the kind of money we are talking about here. Some people end up with life long debt while having their dreams be taken advantage of. And im one of the lucky few that is successful in the field. just imagine what all the others who havent made it think... they just dont have a voice because they arent on these forums. they are probably working **** jobs to pay off their education bill. but hey... at least they are "well rounded" **** workers...

so lets keep the idealism and the hopeful whatifs out of this. this is serious business folks. lots of money is on the line. there are plenty of good reasons to go to school, learning CG is NOT it.

jin choung
05-31-2009, 08:00 PM
totally agree.

it's just below BLATANT that the "education institutions" for things like CG are basically just industries of themselves.

it's just a money making venture that everyone hopped into because it was easy pickins.

akin to the slew of screenwriting books that hit the shelves a decade ago. less driven by a desire (or ability) to teach and more by a desire to turn a quick buck.

anyway, as it regards EVERYTHING, "buyer beware". do your research apart from brochures and school reps.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

here's another thing.

just because they teach you how to do something (and yes, many institutions fail even at that), it DOES NOT mean that you will be able to get a job.

keep that in mind when you consider the PUT IN/GET OUT equation, especially as it pertains to money.

jin

Dexter2999
06-01-2009, 12:00 AM
just because they teach you how to do something (and yes, many institutions fail even at that), it DOES NOT mean that you will be able to get a job.

keep that in mind when you consider the PUT IN/GET OUT equation, especially as it pertains to money.

jin

...and effort.

There is a percentages game that goes on in all of life. 80/20. I used to call it my 80/20 Theory of Evolution, but some smarty-arty Sociologist actually wrote a paper on it and got to name it.

For years there has been a statistic that only about 15 to 20 of graduates work in the area in which they attain their degree. (I think Arts Majors really slant this statistic). Anyway, in school I noticed that 20 percent of the students really put their all into the classes. And 80 percent did just enough to get by (or not).

Be honest about your intentions vs. your ability to commit to the endeavor.

wacom
06-01-2009, 12:35 AM
I wasn't trying to say he doesn't have a right to complain or that he shouldn't. I too think there are quite a few people who go to school, esp. when they are "too young" and just waste money. They don't know what to look for in a school, pick horrible schools, and then go and learn something fairly irrelevant OR don't take advantage of the situation to its fullest (that means more than good grades BTW).

Keep in mind I'm not talking about pre-reqs on history, math, science etc. I think those ARE a good thing even if they don't get you a job directly. True, most people could learn those things on their own...but let's face it, even the "best" people sometimes need to have their curiosity tweaked for a bit.

As for the majors- yeah...well...many get a piece of paper. To make some maters worse, a lot of people go to a horrible school, do well...and then come out of it to realize it was a joke.

So, without knowing him nor ever attended the school he's gone too, all I can say is I'm sorry- man that sucks, you should be mad, but don't let the self pity and hatred blind you to your possible future(s). Is that retarded of me to write such a thing? I just think he shouldn't get mired in it if he can help it.

In the end I come back to the fact that I wish people were required to take "pre-reqs" in general studies for a year or two- and then began apprenticeships in their field of choice- that would solve so many issues right away on so many levels from the costs to the "real world learning" to future employment and networking. Oh well- one can dream right?

OnlineRender
06-01-2009, 12:44 AM
Bitter good choice of words ,just a shame our perspectives clash .
Firstly im not bitter "more realistic" secondly im 1 year from being a doctor in the field ,moreover i feel rewarded for sticking at something ,and i have had the pleasure of meeting some of the most intellegent / great artist's in the buisness .

also i have been blessed with one of the highest education syst3ms in the world .there's no remorce on my part , im just keeping my feet firmly on the ground ,i know for the next few months its all out render time .

BREAK or BUST .

your correct ..

"Maybe it's the "yank" in me that's just sick of hearing you whine to no end- you've filed your complaint- you've been heard, but guess what? It's not getting you closer to your goal and it isn't going to put food on the table- that's still up to you if you want to use your skills. "

im not getting any closer to my goals , by talking about an issue which was resolved 100 post ago and yes it is the "yank" in you .
I stayed in NY and the American attudide is work hard or you fail .
Unlike Great Britian ,where we like to moan first "maybe its just the weather " .

I'm still getting to grips with MAX once i have something solid ill post my demo , then we can make judgement .

PEACE

my karma ran over your dogma !

pS JIn i drew something the other day you might like ,ill scan it and post it 4 u

glebe digital
06-01-2009, 02:19 AM
'work hard or you fail' is a universal currency, not just a Stateside thing........unless you were born with a silver spoon already.

In a couple of years, when you've got your doctorate -and are teaching 3d at Uni- I wonder if you'll take a stand against the grifting of students........[just messing with ya! ;) ]

DiedonD
06-01-2009, 03:09 AM
A lot of new research points to the fact that, while our ancestors on average worked harder when they "worked" they worked far fewer hours per day, per week, per year.

In many parts of Europe during medieval times I think it was something like people only worked 2-3 days on average!

Must be the cost of health care?


And Meshpig



Yes, something like that but "finding the time" is a modern concept.


Are you guys saying that while we tried to organize 'better' we had to sacrifice our time in order to maintain that organisation? Which the other cool part of that organization is health care/protection?

So prehistoric man had more time but was more in danger!

Modern man, supposedly is more safe! (It must be the number and other illulsions that the organization gives about safety that makes one believe so!) And yet is not free, cause he MUST invest time to maintain himself and that organisation that reuturns the favoir with safety!

All the more to it. Although he must invest that time to survive modernly, the organization on the other hand may not need that one, and he should be lucky to get the dreamjob or even aye job to begin with!

And the less jobs there are, the greater the demand thing and not to mention financial crisis. All that while one MUST invest the all precious time to survive!

And yet the saying goes:


'work hard or you fail' is a universal currency...


Just how hard does one has to work in order to survive modernly! Is it worth the 'security' that the organisation has to offer in return?

Your time per modern organized security!

What is more worthy than our time?

jin choung
06-01-2009, 03:24 AM
pS JIn i drew something the other day you might like ,ill scan it and post it 4 u

it better have breasts... cuz if it doesn't....

jin

Chrizto
06-01-2009, 04:25 AM
Self thought is the way. Not only in this industry but in my main industry IT security, programming and the likes. It's what you can show off that is the bottom line.

OnlineRender
06-01-2009, 04:58 AM
it better have breasts... cuz if it doesn't....

jin

Damn back to the drawing board . . .

Andyjaggy
06-01-2009, 09:31 AM
actually there are very good points about being worked up and bitter. they were very well made already and it would take a retard not to see em.

ill repeat it again, colleges hurt this industry and the amount of debt you end up with considering the return should give you a very good reason to be bitter. that and the astonishinly bad treatment of the students that pay ridiculous money to get this so called education. especially by SCAD. just look around and read some of the horror stories, mine is one of many.

im not here to have a philosophical debate about the value of education for your life. im here to explain the negatives I have personally experienced at a particular school and hopefully spared someone else from experiencing the same. I am also pointing out that my observations are not isolated considering the title of this thread.

if you have a story of a college that has done everything right, by all means. just dont downplay the experiences of others, idealism is nice but not when you are spending the kind of money we are talking about here. Some people end up with life long debt while having their dreams be taken advantage of. And im one of the lucky few that is successful in the field. just imagine what all the others who havent made it think... they just dont have a voice because they arent on these forums. they are probably working **** jobs to pay off their education bill. but hey... at least they are "well rounded" **** workers...

so lets keep the idealism and the hopeful whatifs out of this. this is serious business folks. lots of money is on the line. there are plenty of good reasons to go to school, learning CG is NOT it.

Well I guess I have no idea how much these people actually pay to go to these fancy smancy art schools. I chose to go to the cheapest school I could and when it was all said and done I ended up with about 10k of student debt. Nothing too serious in my opinion. I guess I forget some people pay that for one semester. Stupid people anyway. No amount of education is worth that much, even if you were learning from the masters.

dweinkauf
06-01-2009, 09:57 AM
If you go to university just to learn software in order to get a job, you're definitely in the wrong place and whatever you spend on that enterprise IS a waste of money. But if you want to broaden your horizons with experiences that have broader implications for life, the money may be well spent. What does it take to be an animator? One has to know about physical laws (Physics course), acting (Theater course), how a character thinks (Psychology course), timing (Animation, Film courses), situations (Writing course), design (Basic art courses). Then there are all those gen ed and art courses you think you'll never use, but realize later you may have used something in your work from them. Our students just finished a piece that involved the Departments of Animation, Film Production, Theater, Music, Graphic Design, and English. It was an incredible experience that exposed everyone who worked on it to a lot of different disciplines and experiences. As I said before, our students have no trouble getting jobs in the industry or migrating from LW to Maya once out there. They get jobs because they have much more than basic or even advanced knowledge of software or the ability to push a few buttons.

DiedonD
06-01-2009, 02:06 PM
If you go to university just to learn software in order to get a job, you're definitely in the wrong place and whatever you spend on that enterprise IS a waste of money. But if you want to broaden your horizons with experiences that have broader implications for life, the money may be well spent. What does it take to be an animator? One has to know about physical laws (Physics course), acting (Theater course), how a character thinks (Psychology course), timing (Animation, Film courses), situations (Writing course), design (Basic art courses). Then there are all those gen ed and art courses you think you'll never use, but realize later you may have used something in your work from them. Our students just finished a piece that involved the Departments of Animation, Film Production, Theater, Music, Graphic Design, and English. It was an incredible experience that exposed everyone who worked on it to a lot of different disciplines and experiences. As I said before, our students have no trouble getting jobs in the industry or migrating from LW to Maya once out there. They get jobs because they have much more than basic or even advanced knowledge of software or the ability to push a few buttons.

Cool intro!

So who are you? And from which university are you talking from?

dweinkauf
06-01-2009, 03:35 PM
posted by Diedon D....
Cool intro!

So who are you? And from which university are you talking from?

My name is Dave Weinkauf, retired faculty member from Edinboro University of Pennsylvania where I created the Cinema (animation/film/video) program in the Art Department.

4dartist
06-01-2009, 03:45 PM
nevermind...

DiedonD
06-02-2009, 12:31 AM
My name is Dave Weinkauf, retired faculty member from Edinboro University of Pennsylvania where I created the Cinema (animation/film/video) program in the Art Department.

Hey nice of you to present yourself. Your name at NT's couldve been mistudnerstood for a Dwein Kauf see. When its totally different.

Any linkies to your cinema work?

dweinkauf
06-02-2009, 09:11 AM
Unfortunately most of my work is on film and yet to be transferred to video. Since retirement, I started a non-profit. Here is the link... www.twotreesinc.org. Most of my video work these days centers on the projects we're involved with including our plan to build a community center consisting of five geodesic domes on the Standing Rock Indian Reservation in South Dakota.

Stooch
06-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Well I guess I have no idea how much these people actually pay to go to these fancy smancy art schools. I chose to go to the cheapest school I could and when it was all said and done I ended up with about 10k of student debt. Nothing too serious in my opinion. I guess I forget some people pay that for one semester. Stupid people anyway. No amount of education is worth that much, even if you were learning from the masters.

wrong. education from the masters is priceless.

unfortunately masters rarely teach.

Stooch
06-02-2009, 11:45 AM
wow... just by reading all that. i am 100% certain that you are no animator.

lol.

edit... ah it makes sense you are one of those educators..

sorry man, animation mentor all the way. unless of course people want to be like you and "retire" while "educating" for non profit...


If you go to university just to learn software in order to get a job, you're definitely in the wrong place and whatever you spend on that enterprise IS a waste of money. But if you want to broaden your horizons with experiences that have broader implications for life, the money may be well spent. What does it take to be an animator? One has to know about physical laws (Physics course), acting (Theater course), how a character thinks (Psychology course), timing (Animation, Film courses), situations (Writing course), design (Basic art courses). Then there are all those gen ed and art courses you think you'll never use, but realize later you may have used something in your work from them. Our students just finished a piece that involved the Departments of Animation, Film Production, Theater, Music, Graphic Design, and English. It was an incredible experience that exposed everyone who worked on it to a lot of different disciplines and experiences. As I said before, our students have no trouble getting jobs in the industry or migrating from LW to Maya once out there. They get jobs because they have much more than basic or even advanced knowledge of software or the ability to push a few buttons.

adamredwoods
06-02-2009, 12:00 PM
Teaching is a valid way of making money in 3D, or any industry. The hours are easier and people are more social.

While some say "Those who can't, teach"-- I say so what? Not everyone who is great at what they do is a good teacher.

dweinkauf
06-02-2009, 01:09 PM
posted by Stooch....
wow... just by reading all that. i am 100% certain that you are no animator.
lol.
edit... ah it makes sense you are one of those educators..
sorry man, animation mentor all the way. unless of course people want to be like you and "retire" while "educating" for non profit...

I never said I was an animator. I work as a filmmaker and videomaker and still do with my non-profit activities. I worked professionally in some major cities before becoming an "educator" and did professional gigs from time to time during my teaching career. I retired from university teaching after 38 years. Every person we hired in the program I created was hired on the basis of professional experience first and education second. Right now, the animation courses at my university are taught by a Disney features animator who was hired without any degree credentials, but with 15 years in the business; a Emmy-award winning LW animator without advanced degree credentials, but with 11 years in the business; a 3D animator with about a dozen years in the business among others. All three of these teachers either have or have since earned MFA degrees since being hired. FACTS: Our students get great jobs right after graduation because they know and are able to do more than simply learn software or push a few buttons. The list of our graduate's feature film, TV, commercials, games, and studio credits (that we know about) runs 9 single-spaced pages. One of our graduates directed "Star Wars," another recent graduate is a supervising animator and several others are animators on "Ice Age III," another, who got a job working on "Narnia" right after graduation, is now working on James Cameron's "Avatar." Once again, if you go to university just to learn software, you're wasting your money. And, no matter what "educational" experience you undertake, you get out of it what you put into it no matter what your background is or where you come from. Now, then, what's your point about "education?"

AdamAvenali
06-02-2009, 01:24 PM
I never said...point about "education?"

Not to mention, Edinboro is one of the 14 Pennsylvania state schools, which means its price is extremely lower than most private art schools. I believe that I paid as much for my four years there as someone would on one year of SCAD. Being an alumni of Edinboro I am obviously biased, but I knew going in that I was going to be taught by professionals from the industry with tons of experience. I can say that my friends and I are doing quite well for ourselves, whether it be in games, film, or arch-viz. The best part about it is that very few people know about Edinboro keeping its class sizes small. I believe my higher level Lightwave classes had 8-10 students in them. With that kind of ratio and a professor with a lot of experience you can learn a lot in a very short amount of time. I still feel it is one of the best schools for animation on the east coast even though you will not find it in a lot of the animation school listings.

dweinkauf
06-02-2009, 02:32 PM
Thanks, Adam. It's good to know you feel you got some good things from your stay at Edinboro. By the way, my non-profit takes me through Columbus many times during the year. Perhaps we can meet so I can see what you're up to these days.

Stooch
06-02-2009, 07:40 PM
Now, then, what's your point about "education?"

my point is that the people you are trying to pimp would have done everything they did without your school or you. your school doesnt make good students, they were good to begin with. as to the rest of my points, you are free to read them over again if you didnt get it.

:)

AdamAvenali
06-02-2009, 08:10 PM
Windows 7RC1 64bit, 6g Ram, q6600 cpu, GTX 260 GPU

so, this is totally off-topic, but i was wondering about your machine stooch haha i see you are running 6 gig of ram. were you having problems with stability with 8? if so, what motherboard are you using? i had stability problems and had to drop down to 6, so i was just wondering. also, how are you liking windows 7?

dweinkauf
06-03-2009, 09:27 AM
posted by Stooch.....
my point is that the people you are trying to pimp would have done everything they did without your school or you. your school doesnt make good students, they were good to begin with. as to the rest of my points, you are free to read them over again if you didnt get it.

I've been called many things, but pimp hasn't been one of them.

You're right about students being good to start with. Any student who is going to succeed has to have a desire to do so and the ability to go forward. That goes without saying. But, I have seen more instances than not of students growing and blossoming in the university environment. I've seen them take ideas inspired from disciplines outside of animation/film/video production and bring them into their work. I've seen genuine interests in learning all sorts of new things that may or may not have anything to do with animation but help them grow as individuals.

As I said, the university is not the place to simply learn software or push buttons - that's a big waste of time and money. It is, however, a place that can give you experiences outside of film/video/animation that can make you a more well rounded working artist if you're willing to do the work. I'm sorry you had a bad experience at SCAD, but don't indict the entire university system for that one experience without listening to the large group of graduates who constantly give us feedback about how much their time at Edinboro was well spent and productive for who they are and what they're doing today.

I'll paraphrase this again - choose the educational experience that suits you best. If you simply want to learn software on your own - that's where you should be. But, if you want to open yourself to a lot of experiences outside of software training, read, go to theater, art galleries, and other venues you haven't experienced. Or, check out a good college or university program if that interests you. It's your choice.

GregH
06-03-2009, 10:07 AM
On many (notice I didn't say ALL) demo reels I have seen from students, almost all of them have been class assignments. So, you will see many similar reels, not identical but similar.

I believe that a course imposes guidlines and a structure that speeds the learning process by placing demands on the student. This is great for the learning process.

Another problem is that these schools may also have guidelines placed on them by instructors and not the person that is hiring people base on demo reels. There are many schools that get students ready to graduate, not to get hired. They just have a checklist of things they look for and then push them out the door. Not all schools are like this but there are more and more commercials running showing some new school that popped up overnight offering Computer Graphics classes.

OnlineRender
06-03-2009, 10:33 AM
can i say something ,our final year class , raised the bar for other future students , some of the work created was top class . i can name atleast 5 people who will make it this industry that i studied with .
and i can asure you it also looks good for the teachers , we learnt alot of other useful stuff , ie dope sheet structure "correctly" the paper side was massive ,infact to large .

its not exactly VFS , but its now a step / rank higher because of us .

AdamAvenali
06-03-2009, 10:53 AM
can i say...because of us

excellent point. if a program is built correctly with a strong foundation then this type of thing should happen with every graduating class. each class should at least have a handful of students raising the bar for the next year. the types of schools that do not see this happening are more than likely the ones just training in software and not fundamentals.

OnlineRender
06-03-2009, 11:10 AM
they didnt train us in software except a handful of pdf docs , we had freedom to pick ,some used maya others max ,the rest LW . it was the in-and-outs they taught , how light reflects ect ect

remember i went to college and studied interactive multimedia & video production first ,i joined uni in 3rd year most of the students there already had a good grasp of 3d i had to catch up

tommymamn
06-03-2009, 12:45 PM
I have a sign hanging above my computer on the wall with a quote by Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) that says:

"I never let schooling get in the way of my education."

I've adopted that philosophy into my own life as well.

Tom

probiner
06-04-2009, 04:32 AM
wrong. education from the masters is priceless.

unfortunately masters rarely teach.

Well if you want to be next Richard Williams, you're on the good track being a Dick... :thumbsup:

lwaddict
06-04-2009, 07:36 AM
my point is that the people you are trying to pimp would have done everything they did without your school or you. your school doesnt make good students, they were good to begin with. as to the rest of my points, you are free to read them over again if you didnt get it.

:)

I have to agree with this part...
I got my degree wayyyyy back but can still remember how our tight group of 40 yielded 3 that go jobs in the industry.

Those 3 came in as artists and left as degreed artists...
and went on to work in the industry.

The rest came in as bartenders, bus drivers, house wives, etc and left as such with and/or without the degrees as many realized that they couldn't just 'learn' some of this stuff without being at least a little gifted in one arae or another.

This isn't that uncommon.

dweinkauf
06-04-2009, 09:10 AM
Once again, I emphasize that you get out of any educational experience what you put into it. If you enter any educational experience with talent and a burning desire to succeed, chances are, you will be successful. No disagreement with Stooch on that. Our program is designed to give students educational experiences both inside and outside animation/film/video that broaden their perspectives. Again, our graduates have a lot of tools and experiences derived from our program that allow them to do more than simply know software and push buttons. These well rounded experiences are what we believe gets them jobs in the industry usually right out of school. Check out their work in "Bolt", "Coraline", "Clone Wars", and the upcoming "Ice Age III."

dweinkauf
06-04-2009, 09:19 AM
posted by Stooch....
wrong. education from the masters is priceless.
unfortunately masters rarely teach.

An advantage that our university has is the ability to bring masters in to teach. We have brought in between 3 to 5 per school year. Chuck Jones did many master classes for us. His last one lasted over 5 hours. You're right, education from these masters is priceless.

Tobian
06-04-2009, 09:25 AM
Something I found very disparaging when I went to Uni, given I knew how it worked in the states, is practically no university here has ties with the industry. A lot of the (good) colleges in the States have ties into commercial companies, which gives you a HUGE opportunity to get practical work placement. Over here it was like - "there's the yellow pages" and I got nowhere. Of course it's down to the student to PROVE themselves in that environment, but it gets them one step ahead of someone cold-calling and sending in Demo's and CV's.

Not everyone is lucky to come out of an education to be a 'game designer' or a 'film SFX artist' - because frankly there are FAR more students in the genre than there are places to be filmed, which allows the studios to be VERY choosy, to the extent of sourcing from overseas, to get the best people.

Lets face it 3D CG is a VERY niche market. All the drive in the world is useless if there are no actual jobs in your area. Even if your open to relocation, sometimes it's just plain dumb luck that someone gets chosen over another, combined with the quality of their contacts. In that it's absolutely no different than other industries!

AdamAvenali
06-04-2009, 09:36 AM
An advantage that our university has is the ability to bring masters in to teach.

my favorite was Marvel artist Skottie Young :thumbsup:

OnlineRender
06-04-2009, 12:25 PM
in 20 years you will work for me , but for now i will work for you ...

i just made that shinnzle up ,going to use my dads a1 printer and make a poster

Stooch
06-04-2009, 05:58 PM
Well if you want to be next Richard Williams, you're on the good track being a Dick... :thumbsup:

i think i just heard a little mutt yapping in the distance.

probiner
06-04-2009, 09:16 PM
i think i just heard a little mutt yapping in the distance. Oh right thats me with my avatar
No problem, its all good.

DiedonD
06-05-2009, 12:11 AM
Once again, I emphasize that you get out of any educational experience what you put into it. If you enter any educational experience with talent and a burning desire to succeed, chances are, you will be successful. No disagreement with Stooch on that...

Well the evolved argument was that, if someone has the burning desire to succeed, and the form of education, in comparison with someone that underwent a University degree in arts and the one that went through eductaion through DVDs, then are the chances for the both of them succeeding equally unknown? Or would a reel count in the end, and give advantage regardless the way you taught yourself in order for your skills to get there and make such a reel in the first place?

Tobian
06-05-2009, 06:42 AM
Edit: OOPs wrong thread :D

dweinkauf
06-07-2009, 07:11 PM
posted by DiedonD...
Well the evolved argument was that, if someone has the burning desire to succeed, and the form of education, in comparison with someone that underwent a University degree in arts and the one that went through eductaion through DVDs, then are the chances for the both of them succeeding equally unknown? Or would a reel count in the end, and give advantage regardless the way you taught yourself in order for your skills to get there and make such a reel in the first place?

It's hard to say if each one will succeed equally. There are too many factors. I do know from my own experience with the program I created that our graduates have no trouble getting jobs because of their ability to go beyond learning software to a place where they can solve problems and use their broad-based education in many venues of film/video/animation. In our case, I think their university courses and experiences made the difference and helped them stay in the business long term.

DiedonD
06-09-2009, 12:34 AM
Well then, to balance the situation, we need someone that made it far without prior uni education!

Anyone fiting the profile? If so make a speech please.

OnlineRender
06-09-2009, 12:48 AM
i dont think you need to be educated in this industry , i think you just need to be damn good . having an education certainly helps but it dosnt train you in the tools or 3d apps

DiedonD
06-09-2009, 05:05 AM
i dont think you need to be educated in this industry , i think you just need to be damn good . having an education certainly helps but it dosnt train you in the tools or 3d apps

Well Steven, I couldnt agree more. Really! :agree:

But, you have a quite solid uni background! So does Stooch! While your opinions are indeed very important and require to be taken into great consideration. They are against what youve been through, which is a uni education.

I was hoping we could have a clear case like Dweinkauf but from the other pole!

Dweinkauf went through Uni, and has done good, its his experience to support that claim, and that weighs on his mention of 'others' that are doing great from his Uni. Which kinda makes you think weather its a Uni Quality issue at stake, that ahs a say in helping someone go far!

So, to the contrary, someone that didnt underwent any University degree in arts and is a Freelancer that thinks that is going good, would balance it out.

And you and Stooch are kind in the middle of those two poles. Youre direct opposite would be someone that didnt went to Uni in arts, but claims that if they did so wouldve boosted their carrier! Curious to know weather there are those here aswell!

glebe digital
06-09-2009, 05:11 AM
I have no formal education in our chosen field, I've been freelance for six years. Prior to that I was -for eight years- head of 3d at Imagination Ltd, the UK's biggest design agency.

But putting that into context, there simply were no education programs out there when I started dabbling in gfx ['87-'88].......everyone was on the same starting blocks........these days, you need a degree in 'street management' if you want to apply for a job shifting distbins. Seems that way anyhow!

jasonwestmas
06-09-2009, 07:43 AM
i dont think you need to be educated in this industry , i think you just need to be damn good . having an education certainly helps but it dosnt train you in the tools or 3d apps

And learning tools doesn't guaranty anything either.

Stooch
06-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Well then, to balance the situation, we need someone that made it far without prior uni education!

Anyone fiting the profile? If so make a speech please.

wrong forum. they are probably not using lightwave ;)

pretty much all of the best known veterans of the industry got where they are way before the idea of college trained CG was even around. like early to mid 90s.

ted
06-09-2009, 05:19 PM
FWIW, I'm not a CG person, but rather a video professional.
I didn't go to college one single day. I went right out of high school into TV. I did do a 2 month cram course in LA to get my First Class License, but that was needed to operate transmitters back in the day. ;)

On education, I've known some real losers that had all sorts of degrees, and visa verse.
However, I have helped all 3 of my kid’s graduate college. I HIGHLY recommend it to anyone wanting every advantage throughout your life.

Just as happened with the latest recession, no job or career is 100% safe through your entire life.
A college degree WILL give you an edge over the competition when it comes to matching talents. There is nothing saying you can't perfect your talents and work in the field while going to school.

Even after your formal education, you will always need to be learning or you'll be left behind....or just be a behind! :D

dweinkauf
06-09-2009, 08:00 PM
posted by Ted...
Just as happened with the latest recession, no job or career is 100% safe through your entire life.
A college degree WILL give you an edge over the competition when it comes to matching talents. There is nothing saying you can't perfect your talents and work in the field while going to school.

Even after your formal education, you will always need to be learning or you'll be left behind....or just be a behind!

Well said! Couldn't have said it better!

DiedonD
06-10-2009, 01:18 AM
Well. It seems its balanced now again. We have people in this industry, that have came to be so in various ways, and it seems like the successful ones are equal on both sides, leaving the matter over constant learning/passion/10.000 hours of work in CG, and thats irrelavant to where you were during those times!

You couldve been learning it while in Uni, or even outside your hosue balcony in total silence with an old laptop and DVDs, and both would end up beeing highly skillful, only not to be guaranteed of having a job in the field in the end.

The learning process for this industry seems not to favoir the place, rather the passion and the time one invests in it.

Oh and the Reel

Back to square one ;)

JBT27
06-10-2009, 03:04 AM
Well. It seems its balanced now again. We have people in this industry, that have came to be so in various ways, and it seems like the successful ones are equal on both sides, leaving the matter over constant learning/passion/10.000 hours of work in CG, and thats irrelavant to where you were during those times!

You couldve been learning it while in Uni, or even outside your hosue balcony in total silence with an old laptop and DVDs, and both would end up beeing highly skillful, only not to be guaranteed of having a job in the field in the end.

The learning process for this industry seems not to favoir the place, rather the passion and the time one invests in it.

Oh and the Reel

Back to square one ;)

And plain old luck - never forget that one ..... it'll make or break a career. I don't believe there's a degree in that yet.

Julian.

DiedonD
06-11-2009, 12:46 AM
And plain old luck - never forget that one ..... it'll make or break a career. I don't believe there's a degree in that yet.

Julian.

Nonsense!

Whatabout the FAT University here in Mamusha? Everybody knows that they teach you the arts of beeing lucky, and you end up with a degree of Fine Arts in Luck in the end!

Of course, rare people have found that illusive place in the first place!. Guess you need some luck to find it to begin with!