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Andyjaggy
05-07-2009, 10:52 AM
Any tips out there for dealing with a client who doesn't seem to want to pay you and won't respond to calls or email.............

jay3d
05-07-2009, 10:58 AM
Well last time a client didn't pay me (and behaved just like ur case), I pretend to be friendly, visited him in the office and took his laptop computer with me secretly ;D to justify the payment amount.

Nangleator
05-07-2009, 11:08 AM
Hmm. For entertainment purposes only, I offer this suggestion: Send an email that reads, "I'm glad you liked the work. Once payment is complete, I'll send the non-watermarked version. Please (please!) don't publish the current version, with those offensive images encoded in, because some of the legal repercussions may affect my business, as well."

Andyjaggy
05-07-2009, 11:12 AM
Great ideas, I think it would cost me more to fly to where they are and back then the actual money they owe me. :)

I'm still hoping I'll get paid, it's just that it has been over two months now and I'm getting a little peaved.

RollerJesus
05-07-2009, 11:16 AM
Is it a big client or a little client? (Corporate or not...)

Mike_RB
05-07-2009, 11:16 AM
Great ideas, I think it would cost me more to fly to where they are and back then the actual money they owe me. :)

I'm still hoping I'll get paid, it's just that it has been over two months now and I'm getting a little peaved.

I don't remove the watermarks from remote customers until I receive the final payment....

Matt
05-07-2009, 11:19 AM
We had a client (TEXET (http://www.texet.com/)) who said that he didn't like any of the concepts we did (for a calculator project).

But then went on to use a badly modified version of one of them (he had the Chinese moulders modify the design based on his comments).

We just cut our losses I think.

OnlineRender
05-07-2009, 11:29 AM
Its tricky to keep clients happy esp ones that dont fekin pay : made a short promotional film for a client ,when i was 23 ,nothing great nothing to shout about ,but it still done what the client asked for " which he didnt actually know to start with " anyways sent him several invoices ,contacted him several times , everytime i got " i never received anything ill speak to my secretary " . after about 3 month of fekin about , me and 3 close and large friends went to his door , i stood on his nice brand spanking new BMW with a large tube of paint thinners and gave him a choice , 2 days later the cash was in my account ,whalla , and you know something it was for only £600 ...

the next time someone tells you there nephew could do it for half the price
tell them " fine thats great you get your nephew to do it , and see when you come back to me asking to fix it , ill charge you double "
usually stops them in there tracks there and then , sometimes !

TIP :::::: never leave your tooth brush lying about when theres , contracter ,workers or anybody not related to you in your house " .


copy and pasted from other thread

Matt
05-07-2009, 11:35 AM
me and 3 close and large friends went to his door , i stood on his nice brand spanking new BMW with a large tube of paint thinners and gave him a choice

Ahhhhhh Glaswegian business skills, best in the world! ;)

Kevbarnes
05-07-2009, 11:51 AM
In English law the right to reproduce /publish commissioned work is contingent upon payment. ie the client has no right to use the work unless itís been paid for. The license to reproduce is not effective and he is in breach of Copyright.

You could justifiably seek an injunction to stop him from using the work.

I know this because it worked for me a few years ago when I was freelance.

Donít know about American Copyright law but under British law, Copyright is automatically owned by the creator.(even if it is commissioned) ie you donít have to declare it or state it although most Artist do.

I understand that under American Law you have to express Copyright Ownership as a statement.

ÖÖ..Best to get Legal advice Ė good luck

Dexter2999
05-07-2009, 11:59 AM
I have sort of adopted the system used by home builders.
1/3 up front. (For builders this covers materials purchases.)
1/3 at the first draft stage, prior to revisions (In construction this would be when building commences to cover labor costs)
1/3 upon completion.

I have been stung by not being paid. I have been the person who paid up front and had to wait a year. So, I figure this is the best recourse. I am a big fan of watermarks as well.

Nangleator
05-07-2009, 12:03 PM
I used to rely on freelance work. Thank goodness I'm out from under that now. There's one particular client that comes back to me irregularly, and if they ever do again, my terms will be:

150% up front. My mouse doesn't move until the check clears. The overage is reimbursed along with final delivery no later than the deadline date specified in the original quote.

No, I don't really expect anyone to agree to that.

RollerJesus
05-07-2009, 12:05 PM
Well, sending someone to collections is expensive but if you have any paperwork saying they agreed to pay you, then it's a viable alternative, but you don't get all your money.

If they're using the material you made, then you can send them a cease and desist letter via certified mail (or even invoice them certified mail). This is the key, it is the legal indicator that they are willingly not paying you as opposed to he said/ she said stuff.

Depending on the amount of money, small claims court is the probably next step if you opt out of collections.

Andyjaggy
05-07-2009, 12:10 PM
Normally I would do a 50% up front, but what do you do when the deadline is.. tomorrow. :) They wouldn't even be able to get a check to you quickly enough. That's the issue I had with this project anyway.

THREEL
05-07-2009, 12:12 PM
Any tips out there for dealing with a client who doesn't seem to want to pay you and won't respond to calls or email.............

Hey Andy! I feel your pain. I lost almost $4,000 in AutoCAD design work to a company that wouldn't pay. You think I would have wised up when they kept telling me that the check was in the mail. :bangwall: They were in Texas. I'm in Ohio.

I didn't have a contract, but I did have invoices and e-mails stating my charges and their approval for these charges. In this case, I don't think a contract would have mattered anyway, since I cannot find them anywhere.

I've sent certified letters that were returned to me. Seems as though they've disappeared off the face of the planet.

The ironic thing is, a company that I used to work for locally, bought most, if not all, of the machinery that this company in Texas used for business. Arrrgh!!! Go figure.

BTW--Watermarking AutoCAD designs aren't going to do any good, when all the client is going to do is generate CNC code out of it.

Panikos
05-07-2009, 12:13 PM
I had some mather facking [email protected]@rds that were owing me money and they were playing with my patience. After they received a letter from my lawyer they agreed to pay me $1000 every month until they settle.
It was Xmas season and they tried to hide and avoid paying December month.
I send their secretary an email saying only "Tell them to go down the street and sing the carols, otherwise I will come and kick them out of the window"

Next day they phoned me to go and collect my cheque :)

jin choung
05-07-2009, 12:29 PM
Normally I would do a 50% up front, but what do you do when the deadline is.. tomorrow. :) They wouldn't even be able to get a check to you quickly enough. That's the issue I had with this project anyway.

paypal.

i think everyone gets burned once and then you modify practices to make sure it doesn't happen again.

getting final payment before final delivery with watermarks until then is good policy.

jin

borkus
05-07-2009, 12:56 PM
Wasn't this why Iain walked away from this field?

ted
05-07-2009, 02:37 PM
I've rarely had a problem with this until the latest recession hit. Even some of my regular clients have become "slow-payers".
If it's a one time client I'll get much more nasty, but if it's a regular client I just figure I'll be happy when it gets here.

I had one agency that I've done tons of work for tell me they never got paid from their client. I told them my landlord, power and phone companies don't care if I get paid, they still demand their money! ;)

I loved the paint thinner and taking their laptop tricks as well as a few others here.

DiedonD
05-07-2009, 02:39 PM
On our glazing company there are ONLY three ways to do bussiness!

1) 50% in advance payment, the other 50% after installment
2) One of the employees here personally guarantees about the client
3) Bank related guarantees or credits

All have disadvantages.

In the first its usually the other 50% that is harder to get. Theres nothing to hold on anymore! With windows at place, why would one bother paying the other part? Unless you do something about it.

Second one, if the amount is little, then no problem, hold the salary, and let the worker deal with the client on his own terms. But if the amount is as high as what the employee would earn in a year, its hard to hold the employee for so long on his job while paying he is paying for the client in monthly basis!

Third, is basically flawless as far as paying is concerned. But nearly NO client prefers dealing with them in the first place!

And they still manage to get through and not pay for months to years even sometimes!

If I didnt had a life, Id be a pro 'collector'! Dealing with the ones that dont want to hold down their agreements! Somekinda agreement enforcer! It wouldve been fun :)

Perhaps Id get onto your non payers for a 20% cutt from what they owe you aye ;)

Hmmm.... Whatta you know! Even in the other life It seems I wasnt going to be away completely from art and artists!

No matter the job, the life, the times - Its always about arts man... period!

wildr3d
05-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Can't offer anything that hasn't been said already, but I do sympathize with your situation. Everyone gets bit by this sooner or later, if not you personally then the company you work for. For quick turnaround jobs like this you need to get all your money or what will work for you before you hand over any frames period. I hope you get paid!

Andyjaggy
05-07-2009, 02:55 PM
I've worked with these particular clients before and have always gotten paid. So I'm hoping it will come eventually.

jburford
05-07-2009, 03:02 PM
My biggest loss was from one of the largest Chuches and their Univerisity in Ft. Wayne, Indiana. . . . . Fun part, was that no laywer would sue them for me to recoop costs and them using the product on television, no laywer wanted or would sue a church (at least not in NW Ohio or NE Indiana. ...

Never trusted a church again! ;-) Sad state.

Sarford
05-07-2009, 03:16 PM
I've had this problem a couple of times. But here in Holland its rather easy. You got bailiffs here who will get the money for you. The costs of the bailiff are for the client, enforcable by law (and bailiffs are rather expensive). There is still a chance the client realy can't pay (bankrupt) but those chances are slimm.

I've gotten into the habbit of straigtening the payment times my clients get. If they slack too much, even good clients get a bailiff at the doorstep.

OnlineRender
05-07-2009, 03:33 PM
bailiffs lol 1 came to my door the other day £209 for a product i didnt buy , now that was a fun & short conversation , that was after my 2 large dogs stood infront me guarding me like the king ,"barks worse than there bite ,well one of them " dont think ill see him again ...also people round my way tend to open doors with large pieces of metal in there hand ,great fun when i used to do deliveries . . . you know the tv licence people never seem to come around our place anymore !

cresshead
05-07-2009, 05:11 PM
i do 2 things...

watermaking and staged payments

1.breakdown the project into several segments and get paid for each segment done..

2.in between each segment use watermarks and remove watermaking once each segment is paid for.

the most you'll lose would be stage 1 payment or the last stage payment..
the most they can gain wuld be a 1st segment that's watermakerd for no payment or a near complete project with not paying for the final segment and still having that segment watermaked...

my last client after first stage payment offered full project payment to speed up the process of me having to take time adding in watermarks to renders...

also during animation..send them animatics not renders [open gl]

re watermarks> i usually add them in post with combustion and animate both the opacity and they location to stop them being able to remove them simply...in stills add opacity but also a gradient opacity that's angled!

jameswillmott
05-07-2009, 06:29 PM
I don't remove the watermarks from remote customers until I receive the final payment....

This one has saved us many times. Always get money up front, always watermark ANYTHING that goes to the client, always withhold the final product until the final payment is made.

And if you've delivered prior to being paid, and the deadline for payment comes and goes, act fast. A letter of demand sent from a solicitor or debt collector immediately shows you are serious about recovery. Don't mull over it hoping something will happen. I procrastinated and it cost me nearly $40k.

OnlineRender
05-07-2009, 08:07 PM
people i got told to avoid ,when i was at college

Schools
Goverments
NHS

Hopper
05-07-2009, 08:13 PM
You know .. I think there's this guy Shrox knows at a place called "House Of Fear". I'll bet he would be happy to go to his house and beat on him. I've heard it's the only thing the guy's good at these days. :D

Snosrap
05-07-2009, 08:40 PM
My biggest loss was from one of the largest Chuches and their Univerisity in Ft. Wayne, Indiana. . . . . Fun part, was that no laywer would sue them for me to recoop costs and them using the product on television, no laywer wanted or would sue a church (at least not in NW Ohio or NE Indiana. ...

Never trusted a church again! ;-) Sad state.

Hey jbuford, in this case I think I would have considered the reasonable and customary fees for the work a church donation and then deducted them from your income taxes.

dwburman
05-07-2009, 11:19 PM
I think you can write off non-pays on your US income taxes.

I've had a couple of really slow pays lately, one was a state university. I had to call my contact there and have him check on it. I've done work for them before and have always been paid so I wasn't worried. It just took a lot longer than usual. The other job was a small one and everything seemed to go well until the check didn't show up.
Eventually, I mailed them a paper invoice with a letter threatening to enforce the late payment penalty clause of the contract and they finally paid the bill. From now on I'll be watermarking work done for new clients and not count on quick payment from that one client.

inquisitive
05-08-2009, 12:19 AM
Earlier I was going to write that I had a client that gave me the run around with check is in the mail, oh I forgot to send it, I dont have it with me etc, wanted me to do some new work now that the previous person didn't work out - so he is back with me.

I figured this time I would cut thru the chase by asking for two hour upfront payment via paypal, when I was writing that post he actually posted the payment. I just said this saves both of us time, and if you want to me to start right away this is the way to do it.

I do appreaciate however all the replies you have posted, because the idea of watermarks and animatics are great ideas. This current work I am doing is actually web work but I am sure I can improvise a similar idea in case the client decides to play games later on.

DiedonD
05-08-2009, 12:30 AM
I've worked with these particular clients before and have always gotten paid. So I'm hoping it will come eventually.


Clients paying before doesnt proves anything!!

Ive had a client in Switzerland. That after was ready to pay 21k Euros, has delayed thus far to pay 1/3rd of that amount!

And youd think, that if hes alright with 21lk! 1/3rd would be nothing to him! It wasnt the case. But, we will be 'visiting' him shortly!

Ah, which reminds me about this other scum bag! A returning customer. He brought his relatives to us, for us to do glazing on them in several occasions. And when time came for his own house, an employee based on previous experience, was more than ready to guarantee personally in his behalf!

So he didnt pay, and the employee automatically owes us now, so no problem. But the thing about this guy was his short sighted lies. Oh he would promise on all levels, that it just so turned out that he just CANT come right now and make payment! But the funny thing is, he used even a greater level of promise that he would do so no later than tomorow!!!!

Now we were used to weeks later promises, but hes was just tomorow, or a few hours later on that very same day day!! Short coming frequent lies!! And eventually it came to the grand promise of all. He said 'For the life of my kids, I will pay you tomorow', the highest albanian commitment promise! And when he failed there too, Im personally disgusted from him, and no longer wish to do bussiness with the guy. Ill hold the empolyees salary instead, and really couldnt possibly care less of what happens to him now!

Matt
05-08-2009, 01:27 AM
You know .. I think there's this guy Shrox knows at a place called "House Of Fear". I'll bet he would be happy to go to his house and beat on him. I've heard it's the only thing the guy's good at these days. :D

I've noticed Shrox's ex-boss is posting a job, and saying THEY 'had a bad experience'!

COBRASoft
05-08-2009, 05:18 AM
I have my part of problems with non-paying customers. 1 owns me Ä 14 000, the other one Ä 9 000. That's a lot of money, so I brought them to court and won already 1 of the 2 cases. Unfortunately, that customer has no money anymore... I just hate it when customers do this. I do my work with respect and honour, they should pay likewise.

thomascheng
05-08-2009, 05:42 AM
Yeah, that is why I do this.

Short Projects: 50% before you start, and 50% before final delivery.

Mid Projects: 40% upfront, 30% mid point, and 30% before final delivery.

Long Projects: Biweekly payment, until completion.

Always watermark everything, until final delivery. Always have something in contract form (even a 2 line contract stating they will pay in the end is better than nothing). People take you more seriously when you have something on paper, even something simple. If they don't like contract, ask them to pay the full amount upfront (usually happens on smaller projects). If they question you, just say it is your policy established a long time ago.

Nangleator
05-08-2009, 06:29 AM
The most wealthy customers can be the worst.

I did work for an ex boss, who had married well and apparently retired to make babies. The project was for a music video using her supplied video clips and stills. I supplied four or five videos set to different songs, on a nice DVD. I charged her the agreed $2,000. (This was several years ago, and seemed reasonable at the time. She agreed to it beforehand.)

Took 11 months to get payment, and wrecked our friendship. For two thousand.

And she's a billionaire. She spends that on dresses she wears once.

Andyjaggy
05-08-2009, 09:40 AM
I've noticed Shrox's ex-boss is posting a job, and saying THEY 'had a bad experience'!

Oh man. I like Shrox, but nobody wants to work with a Prima Donna.

DiedonD
05-09-2009, 01:10 AM
The most wealthy customers can be the worst.

I did work for an ex boss, who had married well and apparently retired to make babies. The project was for a music video using her supplied video clips and stills. I supplied four or five videos set to different songs, on a nice DVD. I charged her the agreed $2,000. (This was several years ago, and seemed reasonable at the time. She agreed to it beforehand.)

Took 11 months to get payment, and wrecked our friendship. For two thousand.

And she's a billionaire. She spends that on dresses she wears once.

Yes indeed. And youd think that money isnt an issue for them!

A huge building company still owes us quite alot this day! And its a multi milionare this one, if not a bilionare as you say!

But it is logical if you think of it. Its only by loving and wanting money ABOVE everything else, is how they came to be milionares in the first place!

Youd have a better chance of asking her heart, literarily, and she as well as others would consider that as a more plausable option rather then give away irrelevant amounts of their money, in irrelevant means of agreement!

And, that guy that owes us money, is seeking to run for presidency!

:bangwall::tsktsk::devil::help:

ingo
05-09-2009, 01:27 AM
Just curious, how do you watermark your images ?

I just add my logo and company name in big enough letters in the lower left corner of my preview renderings, but that doesn't stop them from using them for advertising on the internet, even that half ready previews.

The only problem is that you punish 89 % of the people for things that only 11 % of your clients do.

DiedonD
05-09-2009, 04:44 AM
Just curious, how do you watermark your images ?

I just add my logo and company name in big enough letters in the lower left corner of my preview renderings, but that doesn't stop them from using them for advertising on the internet, even that half ready previews.

The only problem is that you punish 89 % of the people for things that only 11 % of your clients do.

Well then test them how low can they afford to go by watermarking the entire screen with a semi transparent text in black saying:

"Your not suppose to view this file cause they havent payed me as the author of it yet!"

And you could type your name there too!

That text can be stretched from the upper right angle, stretched diagonally, to the lower left angle of the entire screen, in semi transparence!

Thats how I did it.

But it was with a "Diedon Dorambari Movie" instead, and only for music purposes too, not for the client!

The Dommo
05-09-2009, 07:31 AM
Normally I would do a 50% up front, but what do you do when the deadline is.. tomorrow. :) They wouldn't even be able to get a check to you quickly enough. That's the issue I had with this project anyway.

Three ways around this - don't use slow cheque payments.

First if they are with any of the UK banks that signed up to the new 'faster payments' scheme, as recommended by the government, even a BACS payment goes through the same day. Barclays Bank are still slow at 3 days for BACS payments.

Second, get them to do a CHAPS bank payment. That's a guaranteed same day payment. It'll cost 'em about £15 to send the payment, but you know, they told you the job has an extreme deadline - tomorrow - so they should be willing and able to apy for their emergency. We ahd a global contruction company pay us via CHAPS about a yaer and a half ago, 50% up front to commence on a large job, and the 50% was something like £6k. We were only asking for BACS but they did CHAPS anyway.

Third, take payment via Paypal. They can pay by credit and debit cards even if they don't have a paypal account. If they do, it can also go from their bank account directly through Paypal. Anyway, if they pay by Credit card on Paypal, while you receive (and can transfer from Paypal to your bank account) immediately as soon as the money is in your Paypal account (ok so it take 5 actual days to reach your account), but then you know that the money IS on its way, and your client can basically create their own payment terms, not 14, 30 or however many days your invoices would normally be, as they can pay the credit card bills and manage them however they want.

Hope that helps.

Andyjaggy
05-09-2009, 09:12 AM
Yep I've learned my lesson. And if they don't like the terms they can find someone else. That attitude might change a bit if I don't have any other work but while I have a regular full-time job I'm not going to budge on that anymore.

Hopper
05-09-2009, 10:36 AM
I've noticed Shrox's ex-boss is posting a job, and saying THEY 'had a bad experience'!
That just shows his level of unprofessionalism. No employer with any amount of integrity would post such a description. He's obviously doing that in hopes that Douglas would see it. One last poke in the eye, if you will. What an a-ss hat.

jin choung
05-09-2009, 02:29 PM
basically then,

just never be so desperate for work that you agree to leave yourself open.

watermark everything (use after effects or some other compositing/editing app and overlay a semitransparent image) until final payment is received.

good policy.

jin

Tranimatronic
05-09-2009, 02:29 PM
I no longer do freelance, but the one that worked best for me was a milestone payment sheme - stolen from the games industry.

A - modelling. When the client is happy with the flat shaded object(s) they send you a sign off sheet and 1/3 of the cheque.
B - Surfacing/Lighting/Animation. When the client is happy with these then they send you a sign off on those and another 1/3
C - Rendering DVD authoring. Finally you send the DVD and you get the final payment.

This way worked for me because numerous times someone would come into a project on the client's side and want some trivial thing changing. (I always thought they want to put their stamp on a project) With the modelling sign off I can go back to them and say that i/ it will take more time and ii/ will cost more money as the project is linear and any work after a sign off may need re-doing. This makes them think twice about wasting your time, and sometimes makes it easier to re-invoice for something.

Also one client in particular refused this way of paying and argued the whole way about it. In the end it was him that wasted 2 months of my time and refused to pay for it.

ted
05-09-2009, 09:57 PM
This is all good in theory. And I agree it's always good to try and protect yourself in negotiations.
However, in these times I've allowed our neck to stick out further than normal.
In almost every case we've been OK. The biggest issue has been slow pay on a handful of gigs. The money still comes in and it's a HUGE plus to our cashflow.
Those jobs have gotten us through the toughest times I've experience in the 12 years I've owned the business.

So just balancing here that if you have a client offering a job, and you have the time, you might give in a little on the negotiations. Even if you totally lose out on a small percent, the other revenue you would have lost by never giving in might be worth it.
Just food for thought.

colkai
05-10-2009, 03:54 AM
That just shows his level of unprofessionalism. No employer with any amount of integrity would post such a description. He's obviously doing that in hopes that Douglas would see it.
The thread has been removed, but if you thought that was unprofessional for an employer, you should of seen what he wrote on the thread Shrox started. One thing is for sure, seeing that would make me think twice about applying for a job at a such a workplace. 8~

bazsa73
05-10-2009, 07:41 AM
Hello guys, here is my (our) story. Me and my business partner got a job from famous cell phone maker company. An adertisment agency who was supposed to be the link between us and the end client which is so big that can't afford talking to puny private enterprenuers. They denied payment. At last on the edge of a nervous breakdown my business partner contacted a debt collector company, which is quite a bad thing in northern Europe, at least the locals dislike their names. They put the client onto
a "black list", their name was published in the "local business weekly" news and that convinced them to pay. That's all. I think we lost the agency as a client but we don't care.
But right now I have a job with a French producer-director duo and they paid already half of the agreed sum.
By the way it was interesting to read other people's comment.
Have a nice Sunday all of you! Spring is here! Squirrels jump up and down the trees.

thomascheng
05-10-2009, 11:49 AM
too bad we don't have some type of union to join. This would protect us with payment policies that clients can't argue against and threaten unreasonable clients with a blacklist. Of course, we would have a board to dictate what is reasonable.

ted
05-10-2009, 05:54 PM
too bad we don't have some type of union to join. This would protect us with payment policies that clients can't argue against and threaten unreasonable clients with a blacklist. Of course, we would have a board to dictate what is reasonable.

I got into private business to conduct it....privately. I don't want no stinking "board" telling me what and how to conduct my business. At least not more than the government already does. :hey:
If some dirtbag stiffs me, I'll take care of it, or hire who I want to, to deal with it.
Maybe I deserved to be stiffed for failing to deliver. Maybe I was too stupid to negotiate properly. Maybe I'll kick the guys arse so he never does it again.
Just thinking out loud. :D

Titus
05-11-2009, 01:00 AM
too bad we don't have some type of union to join. This would protect us with payment policies that clients can't argue against and threaten unreasonable clients with a blacklist. Of course, we would have a board to dictate what is reasonable.

You mean a cartel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel). I've been invited to join cartel of production companies here in my country and don't think it really works so well for the members and the industry in general. They do lobby to introduce new laws, blacklist employees, pricefixing, etc.

I do have clients who don't pay, but I don't watermark images. I've learned when I give more trust to my clients, they fell more confident with my work.

jin choung
05-11-2009, 01:10 AM
and here we go.....


sigh.


leftys like me will defend unions until we're blue in the face. rightys will balk. need we revisit this again?

as for cartels... well, you can call it whatever you want. but one thing about every cartel i can think of - they work.

jin

Titus
05-11-2009, 01:32 AM
as for cartels... well, you can call it whatever you want. but one thing about every cartel i can think of - they work.

Not always, as is in the case I'm talking about. Companies don't have moral, they have interests, so they will stab other companies back as soon as they can. The first meeting I've had with this cartel they were talking about a particular problem, delayed payments from advertising agencies and I'm talking about several million dollars on payment due, they couldn't agree on a plan a year after that meeting.

jin choung
05-11-2009, 01:37 AM
Not always, as is in the case I'm talking about. Companies don't have moral, they have interests, so they will stab other companies back as soon as they can. The first meeting I've had with this cartel they were talking about a particular problem, delayed payments from advertising agencies and I'm talking about several million dollars on payment due, they couldn't agree on a plan a year after that meeting.


again, i said 'ones i can think of' - drugs, diamonds, oil....

don't know too many poor debeers execs.

jin

Titus
05-11-2009, 02:03 AM
That's the problem, those cartels are more a fantasy for us, the 3d blue collar artists. There are other examples closer than we can think.

jin choung
05-11-2009, 02:12 AM
meh... i'm just humoring the notion of cartels anyway.

i disagree fundamentally that cartel=union anyway. you like links. here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union

jin

Titus
05-11-2009, 02:18 AM
I disagree also, cartels aren't unions. And I don't know what a union can do for freelancer seeking payment from clients. Are you going to strike?

Sande
05-11-2009, 02:23 AM
i think everyone gets burned once and then you modify practices to make sure it doesn't happen again.

getting final payment before final delivery with watermarks until then is good policy.

jin

Yep, I just had my first dishonest client. Everything seemed to be in order when I took the job, now my client owes me something between 10k - 20ke, has been declared bankrupt and seems to have deceived several other freelancers and contractors also.

I had written contract (a must!) and negotiated a large advance payment, but it seems that many of the other guys didn't - some haven't gotten a single cent out of the client and probably never will.

So what I've learned so far:

Written contract. Should be obvious to everybody, but it seems there are still freelancers who work on projects without anything written down.
Advance payment. If I can't have it, I don't take the the job or I'll charge enough extra to cover the risk.
Watermark.

Most of the clients are honest and nice to business with, but you should always remember when taking a job that there are also a bunch of cunning little bastards lurking out there and taking advantage of people - and you can't always tell by the looks... ;)

jin choung
05-11-2009, 02:24 AM
I disagree also, cartels aren't unions. And I don't know what a union can do for freelancer seeking payment from clients. Are you going to strike?

i agree.

unions are good for going up against goliaths... not other davids.

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personally, i see no problem in going over and doing a shake down. if payment is fing due, payment is fing due.

jin

jin choung
05-11-2009, 02:26 AM
Written contract. Should be obvious to everybody, but it seems there are still freelancers who work on projects without anything written down.
Advance payment. If I can't have it, I don't take the the job or I'll charge enough extra to cover the risk.
Watermark.


absolutely.

in my mind, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not watermarking your images prepayment.

i mean why be a sucker?

you pay me, you get final image.

if you don't you're fd.

it keeps everyone safe. keeps me safe from being a sucker and it keeps them safe from me having to take knee caps.

jin

cresshead
05-11-2009, 02:36 AM
also animate your watermarks in movement and opacity....

take the lightwave watermark...easy peesey to remove so dn't do one like that!

LW_Will
05-11-2009, 02:43 AM
I think the idea is not of a cartel, but if a Guild.

Cartels own particular items that people want; oil, diamonds... like that.

A GUILD is an affiliation of people with a skill... this I believe is us, people. We must train, we must support. Now, guilds get into bad areas when you start limiting the information or physically intimidating guild members (or potential members) or people who might hire guild members.

This is the bad part of organized labor.

I'm not a full radical, but when someone tells me he can get a better deal for himself, I might agree with him. But, that guy coming up can't get that deal, and mostly he is paid frak for what he does.

Its a pay it forward situation. Everybody in H'wood tells me this story. You can't pay back the people who helped you up, so you turn back and help the next guy.

That is how we do that...

Andyjaggy
05-18-2009, 10:12 AM
Well I finally got the checks today. It only took 10 weeks. :) I'm just glad I got payed. Yay.

JeffrySG
05-18-2009, 10:18 AM
Well I finally got the checks today. It only took 10 weeks. :) I'm just glad I got payed. Yay.

It's great you got paid! Yay!

And 10 weeks in the business world is nothing out of the ordinary. :)

Once I get to know a client better if they are a little delayed on payment on a job I try not to sweat it too much. But if they end up with too many jobs that have not been paid, then I'll put a little pressure on them to catch up on some invoices. You don't want to lose a good client. But you don't want to get screwed if they end up with financial problems, which is common these days.