PDA

View Full Version : Unpaid Internships on the rise



AbnRanger
04-27-2009, 03:26 AM
I've noticed what seems to be a spike in Unpaid Internships (here in the Southern California) with the economy in such bad shape. I mean Internships, when conducted legally, are more of a burden to a studio or shop than an asset. They have to take time from their normal, busy routine to train someone with little to no benefit to them...other than the satisfaction that they are helping young artists to bloom and to possibly spot a good future prospect. Legally though, the Intern can not do production work that either benefits the company or work that essentially would require paid labor to do....unless the Internship complies with the Minimum Wage standards.

Knowing this upfront, no one in their right mind would repeatedly ADVERTISE for Interns...asking for resumes, cover letters and demo reels to be submitted, just like a regular job opening.
Are folks just ignorant of labor laws, or do they just not care...taking the WAREZ excuse, "Everybody's Doing It?".

Here is a quote from an San Fransisco newspaper article about the topic:

What many students and employers do not realize is that federal and state labor laws require for-profit employers to pay interns at least minimum wage unless the job meets specific requirements.

For a position to be exempt from California wage and hour laws, the Department of Labor Standards Enforcement requires that "the training be an essential part of an established course of an accredited school or of an institution approved by a public agency to provide training for licensure or to qualify for a skilled vocation or profession. The program may not be for the benefit of any one employer, a regular employee may not be displaced by the trainee, and the training must be supervised by the school or a disinterested agency," according to a 1996 opinion letter from the department.

In certain cases, California employees with no relevant experience who are deemed "learners" can be paid 85 percent of the state minimum wage during their first 160 hours on the job.

Under federal law, for-profit employers must pay workers unless the position meets six criteria. One says the employer "derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees or students." Many employers assume that if a student earns academic credit, an unpaid internship will comply with federal laws. But "academic credit alone does not guarantee that the employer is in compliance with the six criteria of the Fair Labor Standards Act," says Deanne Amaden, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Labor.

The federal law is somewhat less restrictive than California's because it does not require a school's involvement.

"We're a little more taut about it being for the benefit of the student. To ensure it is not some kind of subterfuge, we require that it be part of a licensing requirement or an educational requirement," says Anne Stevason, staff counsel in the California Division of Labor Standards Enforcement.



What do you guys think? Anybody else noticed how commonplace this is becoming? How can you earn a living selling fish, so to speak, if folks are out fishing all day long and come to the marketplace giving their catch away for free?

archijam
04-27-2009, 04:11 AM
Interesting post Don.

Can't speak for digital jobs, but in architecture studios this is unfortunately is quite common. In almost all cases they are fresh graduates from architecture school, not trained professionals. I think some employers consider it almost as a 'rite of passage'.

Less common here in Switzerland I've noticed.

AbnRanger
04-27-2009, 10:31 AM
Yeah...it's no different than these yahoo's that come on the forums from time to time, trying to get artists to help them on THEIR projects for nothing but the benefit of having extra material on their resume :screwy:

The student gets screwed from both sides....the school charges $$$ per credit hour....the student has to pay fuel and wear and tear on their own vehicle to get to the work location each day, and then the company/studio gets some grunt work that they would have to do themselves or hire someone to do....that's thousands they get to pocket.

aidenvfx
04-27-2009, 10:42 AM
Interesting. In Canada most internships are paid because the companies get reemburced for the employees wages. This is done at either a CO-OP level or through film programs that vary from Provence to Provence.

adamredwoods
04-27-2009, 11:25 AM
I've seen this in San Francisco, and didn't know it was illegal until now.

Especially lately, cruising the Craigslist postings, I've seen more and more internship positions for designers.

Glendalough
04-27-2009, 12:18 PM
Look at this for crummy cheapness:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/business/26unbox.html?hpw

doimus
04-27-2009, 03:42 PM
Better to sit on the couch for free, than to work for free.

Sad part is, those interns don't learn much at all at those zero-pay jobs. How do you expect someone to pass knowledge when they refuse to pass money? Greedy bastards are greedy bastards. Period.

ted
04-27-2009, 05:58 PM
We have a couple companies here that constantly advertise on forums for unpaid jobs. They advertise that you will get "Free Food" and "Credits" on the film or project. :devil:
WTF? BFD!
Unfortunately there are always people lining up for this chance to get food and credits. That's why these guys get away with it. One guy gets smart and walks away and 2 more line up to get the free gig???

One guy is actually charging actors to be in his short films. Yup, heard that right. There are actors lining up to pay money to be in a film.

Don't get me wrong, I do think there are many times where this is a good practice. But too many people are using this now as free labor to get paid jobs done.

wacom
04-27-2009, 07:22 PM
I didn't know this was illegal- I just always thought it was rude and horrible to say the least. Many of the studios here (most are small) have put out ads for work on this level- aka "Come crawling and do work for free you peon".

The funny thing is that most of these places could easily afford to pay at least minimum wage.

In the best case scenarios the intern knows almost nothing that they need to know, and do in turn get a real world education for their troubles. The problem is that half of these are for work doing roto work etc. with no extension beyond the initial work in to other areas of expertise or employment.

I kind of wish the US had sponsorship like some places do- it makes a lot more sense for everyone and saves money. So the employer pays for a bit of schooling and is guaranteed the graduate to work at their shop for slightly reduced pay until the education debt is payed off. Nice to graduate knowing you've got a job.

Thanks for posting the info AbnRanger- I'll be sure to spread the word when I can, and if it's on a message board or a place where I can repsond to a post, I'll lead them to this info.

AbnRanger
04-27-2009, 09:40 PM
Interesting. In Canada most internships are paid because the companies get reemburced for the employees wages. This is done at either a CO-OP level or through film programs that vary from Provence to Provence.Sounds like Canada is running a tighter ship on this practice, than the US. It's almost like no-one cares.

There's a local sign shop here in Riverside that's been recycling interns to supplement their staff...and I ask myself what in the world is a sign shop doing running an internship in the first place? They are way down on at the bottom of the design food chain. I finally sent them a polite e-mail and brought it to their attention that such practice was in clear violation of both Federal and California state labor laws (namely the Fair Labor Standards Act...provided them a link to study it themselves), and that the repeated practice was harmful to good artists looking for work (fulltime or freelance), for other businesses in the same market, and certainly to the student.

Anybody want to hear the guys reply? It's pretty juicy and might get your dander up...so be warned. :D

ted
04-28-2009, 09:58 AM
I don't think the government needs to control this as much as the people who allow themselves to be abused need to wake up.

Several months ago I found a great girl I wanted to use on a paid as need basis. She called me the day after I interviewed her and said her "Boss" who was only using her as an unpaid intern said he needed her to be exclusive and he would NOT allow her to "work" for others. :eek:

*Pete*
04-28-2009, 10:31 AM
I don't think the government needs to control this as much as the people who allow themselves to be abused need to wake up.


im sure they will wake up AFTER being abused, but by then it is too late...

this kind of practise hurts everyone except the company who does it, it hurts competition and eventually might force others to do so as well and soon enough this will be more of a norm than exception.

In Norway we have a minimum salary, some foreign workers are not aware of this, or the fact that it applies to them as well as long as they work in Norway.

so those times when the govt (or competing companies) have found out that a company is using cheap labour the first, immeadeate reaction is to force the employer to pay salaries matching the minimum or average salary for the type of work, retroactively...meaning that someone who been working for 10 dollar an hour for six months will get a happy suprise when the goverment steps in and says that the salary was supposed to be 20 dollar per hour, which means that six months worth of work for which the low paid employer is now going to get extra money for.

the employer will also have to pay hefty fines to evading the law and often it happens that such companies will go out of business.

sounds harsh?...sure, but it allows for us to have a real competition between companies domestically and no employer will be forced to choose cheap foreign labour over the more expensive Norwegian labour in order to compete on even terms.

we have a minimum salary set, and if someone decides to pick foreign workers instead of Norwegian ones it is up to them to do so, but they wont get an economical benefit for it, unless they pick better and more skilled workers.

i think unpaid/free food internships where the unpaid student is actually pulling his/her own weight in production and then gets replaced when the time runs out with another unpaid intern is simply exploitation...it harms everyone, good for none.

those who follow this pratise should be reported to the police, laws are to be followed...and specially in times like these, economical and financial laws should be followed extra carefully.

those unpaid workers could very well bring good, healthy companies to their knees economically and we would end up with low cost, low quality products, not just 3d but in everything...

*Pete*
04-28-2009, 10:32 AM
Abn, what was the reply?

wacom
04-28-2009, 11:22 AM
Give us the juice (brushes off shoulders) OK ready for more dander too!

AdamAvenali
04-28-2009, 11:31 AM
so i guess i was lucky that my college internship (summer between 3rd and 4th years) was paid (more tha minimum wage) and got me 12 credits haha

AbnRanger
04-28-2009, 11:42 AM
Here is the Body of his response...notice how it starts off in a rant and personal attack (I emailed anonymously, so the guy doesn't know if I'm a competitor of his or a student or a person looking for work)....then ends up admitting guilt, but declaring nothing can be done about it:




1. We have hired two interns from the first post and have hired one of them based on her work ethic. The other one was given a "letter of recommendation." So far, neither of the two interns have produced profits for the company as far as original work. The intern under hire is doing work such as rasterizing, and all other work that our current Creative does not have time for. To remotely consider that inexperienced workers can produce profitable designs is, with all *due* respect, quite hilarious. Fresh grads would need literally 2-3 years of experience for them to start to get and accept that they have to be creative.



2. If you haven't ever been involved in the selection process of recent grad graphic designers, you would do well to notice that most of them... quite frankly... "suck" at what they do. It is quite necessary for us to give training to candidates who show the most potential, because they would find value in such training - it is a win-win situation, and not a situation where the grad is "exploiting" the company, which wouldn't make any sense unless you live in a communist country. Also, most of the time, graduating students do not feel as if they have paid thousands of dollars for their education until they enter the work force and wake up - even then, often a lot of the money that is paid for education is through the form of grants -- free money -- for which businesses are taxed heftily.



Not that we would let you think of filing charges against us, but for you to be taken seriously in court, you would quite literally need to work your way up to the Supreme Court for them to make an order to enforce other companies and institutions which are practicing the same hiring processes - because no one respects this law in the real world.



(1) The University of California

(2) The State of California

(3) FedEx / Kinkos

(4) Hilton Hotels Corporation



Judging from your email, I would assume that you are a very untalented graphic designer yourself who has been in the workforce long enough to be willing to make such outrageous demands, or you are young, inexperienced and have very few friends in the private sector, and, most noticably, have no real ambition. Whichever, I can assure you that you think too highly of the talent that comes from any institution with a graphic design program. Note that:



(1) We could not care less if our competitors used unpaid interns. They lack our culture and seriously, we don't care. Our competitors wind up turning their interns into corporate goonies anyway, whether or not the interns are paid.

(2) I think it's perfectly reasonable to work a few jobs unpaid before taken seriously in the industry. I've done so myself through major institutions.

(3) We have posted the intern position the second time because the first time had produced ~60 applicants, which only 5 of them we considered talented.



I think it also helps to note that we have (1) an art director, (2) an artistic graphic designer who works for us full-time, (3) two others who are proficient in Illustrator and Photoshop who work for us full time, and that our Creative enjoys *the* dominant influence in our office. Your attitude reflects sentiments maintained in the public sector, like a city or county... where the rules only apply in that territory. This is an opportunity for recent grads to gain exposure to the private sector, for which they have no experience.



But I think the best medicine for you is to own a business yourself and see for yourself what kind of drama laden, socially abnormal, disoriented, and irrelevant talent that comes from whatever prestigious art institute you can think of. Walk a minute in our shoes before you start complaining about how graphic design grads are treated - because from our perspective, we treat them pretty well for what they are worth.

Riff_Masteroff
04-28-2009, 12:08 PM
At the same time, many here have been denigrating and bashing Unions for more than twenty years. What gives? Should individuals be marginalized, without voice or power to balance the conditions of their employment.

Consider that FedEx, Kinkos, Hilton Hotels (mentioned in AbnRanger's post) use their customer's money (yours) to purchase 'influence' and worse so that 'free' labor will be the 'norm'?

*Pete*
04-28-2009, 12:24 PM
the final sentence is priceless "we treat them pretty well for what they are worth"..obviously they are worth NOTHING, and to give them a slice of pizza every second friday should be to treat them pretty well....

AbnRanger
04-28-2009, 01:47 PM
so i guess i was lucky that my college internship (summer between 3rd and 4th years) was paid (more tha minimum wage) and got me 12 credits hahaYou must be one of the chosen few...an elite group of crack interns

AdamAvenali
04-28-2009, 01:51 PM
You must be one of the chosen few...an elite group of crack interns

i actually received a shirt that said crack intern on it

prospector
04-28-2009, 03:01 PM
But I think the best medicine for you is to own a business yourself and see for yourself what kind of drama laden, socially abnormal, disoriented, and irrelevant talent that comes from whatever prestigious art institute you can think of. Walk a minute in our shoes before you start complaining about how graphic design grads are treated - because from our perspective, we treat them pretty well for what they are worth.

How true

Kinda like the local college here
constantly looking for 3D teachers.
Went to see about it, did the tests, ran pretty good circles around the rest of the applicants, but didn't get the job...didn't have a teacher accreditation, and wouldn't join the teachers union.

So who wins? The students? getting less than the best schooling?
They end up running the same ad usually every 3rd month. silly

So yes..the kids coming out of school even tho have the credits (ie; they showed up for class), do they really know what is going on?

I agree with company shown above.

lwanmtr
04-28-2009, 03:17 PM
I recall going for a position at a company for modeling..and while I could model as good as or better than the folks on their staff, they only offered a 6 month unpaid internship..while I would have liked to work for the company, I told them I needed to be paid...and their interns DO produce profit because you work on high profile projects from the start...

The internship program is something that the federal gov't needs to look at because in alot of cases, the companies that use interns are abusing the program.

AbnRanger
04-28-2009, 04:13 PM
I recall going for a position at a company for modeling..and while I could model as good as or better than the folks on their staff, they only offered a 6 month unpaid internship..while I would have liked to work for the company, I told them I needed to be paid...and their interns DO produce profit because you work on high profile projects from the start...

The internship program is something that the federal gov't needs to look at because in alot of cases, the companies that use interns are abusing the program.Exactly...I can understand if they don't want to risk paying someone who isn't really capable of doing a lick, but that's why they are supposed to screen the interns in the first place and it's normally just doing the grunt work that that eat up a lot of their own time=having to extend or miss their deadline or pay someone to come in and help.

It's generally abuse. It's like speeding...most people do it...till they get enough tickets to make them decide to lighten up on the gas peddle :D

In this economy, this is no laughing matter though. Schools need to do a better job informing the students, and have the program director or career services personnel supervise the process and let the companies know that they are going to stay in touch with the student and if they are doing anything in the process of commercial production, they either need to pay the students (at least minimum wage) or it will be reported to the state labor standards enforcement division. If every college did that...intervene on behalf of the student, this abuse would stop.

aidenvfx
04-28-2009, 07:37 PM
Sounds like Canada is running a tighter ship on this practice, than the US. It's almost like no-one cares.

There's a local sign shop here in Riverside that's been recycling interns to supplement their staff...and I ask myself what in the world is a sign shop doing running an internship in the first place? They are way down on at the bottom of the design food chain. I finally sent them a polite e-mail and brought it to their attention that such practice was in clear violation of both Federal and California state labor laws (namely the Fair Labor Standards Act...provided them a link to study it themselves), and that the repeated practice was harmful to good artists looking for work (fulltime or freelance), for other businesses in the same market, and certainly to the student.

Anybody want to hear the guys reply? It's pretty juicy and might get your dander up...so be warned. :D

While I think overall Canada has better labor laws for Canadian workers this does not protect foreign workers. It was a VFX house in Canada that screwed 100 + workers out of their money for "Journey to the Center of the Earth 3D" so that type of crap does happen here.

belanagy
05-02-2009, 07:28 AM
Interesting. In Canada most internships are paid because the companies get reemburced for the employees wages. This is done at either a CO-OP level or through film programs that vary from Provence to Provence.

maybe in Regina but not in Toronto.....

Ivan D. Young
05-02-2009, 08:23 AM
Everybody loves computer graphics, their cool! They just do not want to pay for them.

There is a serious disconnect in this whole industry between how much services or product costs and how much time it takes to make something.

There is a great amount of ineffiency in all of this that makes companies try to "cheat" or pay as little as possible to make money.

If it were not the case, then why do so many VFX companies bite the dust?

Look artists do not want to pay for the real cost of software. The companies do not want to pay for the real cost of the artists and software. The studios do not want to pay for the real cost of VFX work. and the consumers do not like paying for high ticket prices at the theater.

The whole "ecosystem" of this industry has some serious hidden cost issues and no one really wants to fix it. But as artists, in this field we do get pinched in the middle.

along with internships, there is alot of outsourcing for assests as well. what do you want to bet that they have interns as well!

I also agree that the schools are not turning out students. I was an assistant Instructor at the DAVE school and worked with guys like Proton. We would get folks that would come to DAVE after having been thru another school and could not get a job and come to our school so that they could. I am sure that this sort of thing is happening all of the world. so there are probably schools that are just poor CG farms and do not train students. Yet, if you do not "Qualify" as a certified instructor you can not teach.

My advice is to make you choices very carefully and be prudent with your time and money.

BigHache
05-03-2009, 07:26 AM
"The intern under hire is doing work such as rasterizing, and all other work that our current Creative does not have time for."

Well clearly this company has admitted to actually utilizing the performance from the intern(s). Just because they think they're correct and defend themselves, doesn't make them correct.

"... because no one respects this law in the real world."

This is always the reason to break a law or rule, because no one else is obeying it either. And "either" meaning they are knowingly breaking the law. It's pretty rich too that they compared themselves to much larger companies with much larger attorneys. I say they go to bat against the state and see what happens.

I've seen over my years that artists are viewed as something neat but not exactly necessary, so we don't have to treat them like regular laborers.

I knew an artist who accepted a freelance illustration contract for a small gaming company. This company was producing a small, printed book for their game. The artist provided the cover illustration and several interior black and white illustrations. The company stipulated to the artist that they were not going to pay him for the contracted work until the book was published, i.e. 'if something bad happens and this book doesn't print we don't have to pay you'. The company also state that this was standard practice for the industry. I'd like to see them try that with a plumber or any other type of company. "Thank you for fixing our toilet, however, if no one sits on it again we don't have to pay you for your services."

There's a mindset about artists that needs to change. Otherwise this stuff is likely to just keep continuing.

SBowie
05-03-2009, 08:28 AM
[B][I]There's a mindset about artists that needs to change. Otherwise this stuff is likely to just keep continuing.I expect it will (continue), as absent rigorous enforcement these things always do. There are many, many examples from unrelated economic areas that I won't mention to avoid launching yet another political flamefest.

That said, I think there is certain natural justice is meted out to those employers who think they are getting something for nothing. Having had a small staff on more than one occasion, it's been my experience that help worth having is help worth paying, and that you don't keep good help if you don't pay them what they are worth. You are just shooting yourself in the foot by being cheap. Even free help can cost you a lot, including lost business.

You wind up expending a good deal of time time and money on the sort of under-qualified people who will work for less than they should (even if they work for free), both training them and re-doing their work to bring it up to an acceptable standard. And you as far as qualified staff who you underpay - it's just a matter of time. While they are still with you, they are learning your techniques and establishing relationships with your clients that they may well use to undercut you when they inevitably walk.

Finding good people and remunerating them well enough to foster loyalty and good morale is the best course in the long run, and those who don't do that just bring a world of aggravation on themselves.

prospector
05-03-2009, 08:41 AM
I'd like to see them try that with a plumber or any other type of company
It's normal here

We had a fountain system put in and there was no money exchanged till job was done.
there was no way money was leaving me untill at least a week has passed for concrete to set as it will *usually* crack within that time. I was not about to pay for a bad and leaky system.

Ever try to get someone back on a job? ya have to wait for thier schedule.
I work on my schedule..not theirs.

There really is no such thing as a *standard* contract..any thing can be put in or taken out...that's why they write addendiums.

And in this economy...it's even easier.

Medi8or
05-03-2009, 11:13 AM
It's normal here

We had a fountain system put in and there was no money exchanged till job was done. ..If it's normal, why do you give an example of a totally different situation? :stumped:

Cageman
05-03-2009, 12:42 PM
When I had internship at Fido Film I didn't get payed at all, except if I worked overtime. It is pretty normal here in Sweden that interns never get paid even if we do help out in real production. Since internship is a part of an educational system, we are entitled money from the government during this period (actually, the whole time we study). It is not much and usually we have to loan money as well. We have the right to earn up to a specific ammount of money per year (not much) and if we exceed that, we are not allowed the government fund; only the loan.

But looking at where I am now, I have a really hard time being bitter about it. And the fact that I actually landed two jobs after my education had finished really isn't something to complain about.

SBowie
05-03-2009, 02:58 PM
Since internship is a part of an educational system, we are entitled money from the government during this period (actually, the whole time we study). This is more in the nature of what would be called a co-op program over here, as compared to an 'unpaid internship'. Different animal, I think.

BigHache
05-06-2009, 08:46 PM
Ever try to get someone back on a job? ya have to wait for thier schedule.
Oh I agree that getting a good contractor to do good work, the first time, is often asking a bit much. Assuming the work is done well though you wouldn't think of telling the contractor, "Yeah, if no one utilizes this fountain I'm not paying you," solely for the reason that you think that if it's not being used you shouldn't have to pay for it.

jin choung
05-07-2009, 12:16 AM
it never makes sense to me to b1tch about competition of any kind.

the situation is what it is. and competition is only ever going to get worse. by people younger, better, faster, more knowledgeable and to add insult to injury - CHEAPER.

and whether it is outsourcing, free laborers, undercutters, blah blah blah it's out there, it's real and it's gonna get worse.

may be bad but if you're waiting around for tighter, stricter laws and regulations, i have a feeling you're gonna be waiting a long time.

it is what it is.

and i approach this from the side not of management but just a working joe.

that's the situation. period.

EVERY GENERATION at every stage (except for the legion of newbs eager to come onto the scene) b1tches about this before they ineluctably get edged out. time after time as if it was something new and interesting.

what's there to talk about?

jin

AbnRanger
05-08-2009, 12:00 AM
it never makes sense to me to b1tch about competition of any kind.

the situation is what it is. and competition is only ever going to get worse. by people younger, better, faster, more knowledgeable and to add insult to injury - CHEAPER.

and whether it is outsourcing, free laborers, undercutters, blah blah blah it's out there, it's real and it's gonna get worse.

may be bad but if you're waiting around for tighter, stricter laws and regulations, i have a feeling you're gonna be waiting a long time.

it is what it is.

and i approach this from the side not of management but just a working joe.

that's the situation. period.

EVERY GENERATION at every stage (except for the legion of newbs eager to come onto the scene) b1tches about this before they ineluctably get edged out. time after time as if it was something new and interesting.

what's there to talk about?

jinThousands of people use cracked software, does that mean you should too? You're making the same case this idiot did...everybody's doing it and no one's going to do anything about it. So developers shouldn't b!itch about warez sites just because, hey, it's so common.

jin choung
05-08-2009, 12:21 AM
Thousands of people use cracked software, does that mean you should too? You're making the same case this idiot did...everybody's doing it and no one's going to do anything about it. So developers shouldn't b!itch about warez sites just because, hey, it's so common.

b1tching about warez sites and piracy IS assinine. whenever game developers or the riaa or the mpaa b1tch and moan, every single person out there breaks out their tiny little violin to play them a sad song. boo fing hoo.

it is a REALITY. and people still make money. if these people can't make money, there are literally MILLIONS of people right behind them waiting to push them out of the way and under existing conditions, STILL FIND A WAY TO MAKE MONEY.

what are you going to do about it? what can you possibly do about it?

that being the case, i ask you again - WHAT is there to talk about? this is NOT NEW. this is VERY OLD. and it is desperately BORING. right? seriously - what is there to talk about?

even with all the things going against us, even with all the unfairness, people STILL FIND A WAY to make it work. and there are tons of people right behind us who think they can make a go of it too.

jin

p.s. ever see ferris bueler's day off? charlie sheen's character seems to have pretty solid advice for most "prim and proper" "stick in the muds" in this modern world - ala ferris's sister.

she's pissed because ferris ditches and breaks the rules all the time and gets away with it. sheen: you can ditch too. and if you don't want to ditch, then YOU don't want to ditch. he's living his life. live yours.

it's good advice. standing around b1tching and moaning about "fairness" gets you jack and squat and that's it.

AbnRanger
05-08-2009, 07:12 AM
b1tching about warez sites and piracy IS assinine. whenever game developers or the riaa or the mpaa b1tch and moan, every single person out there breaks out their tiny little violin to play them a sad song. boo fing hoo.

it is a REALITY. and people still make money. if these people can't make money, there are literally MILLIONS of people right behind them waiting to push them out of the way and under existing conditions, STILL FIND A WAY TO MAKE MONEY.

what are you going to do about it? what can you possibly do about it?

that being the case, i ask you again - WHAT is there to talk about? this is NOT NEW. this is VERY OLD. and it is desperately BORING. right? seriously - what is there to talk about?

even with all the things going against us, even with all the unfairness, people STILL FIND A WAY to make it work. and there are tons of people right behind us who think they can make a go of it too.

jin

p.s. ever see ferris bueler's day off? charlie sheen's character seems to have pretty solid advice for most "prim and proper" "stick in the muds" in this modern world - ala ferris's sister.

she's pissed because ferris ditches and breaks the rules all the time and gets away with it. sheen: you can ditch too. and if you don't want to ditch, then YOU don't want to ditch. he's living his life. live yours.

it's good advice. standing around b1tching and moaning about "fairness" gets you jack and squat and that's it.Much of what you're saying may be true, but I just brought up the issue that not only does the illegal practice seem to be on the rise with the bad economy, but I'm very surprised at how blatant some of the places are. Advertising for interns is a red flag cause a legitimate, legal internship is more of a drag and burden on a company than a benefit.
What's more is your statement that my raising the issue is necessarily b!tching and moaning...so everytime you have something negative to say about Newtek or LW, why is it any less a b!tchfest if you do it?
Instead of b!tching about it here, why not use that time to do something constructive. Newtek's not going to cater to your whims, so why not just move on?
How is this issue different than threads about clients stiffing them or getting on their nerves and such? After all, it's just part of the trade, right? Funny, there were a few gents here that thought it was interesting. Maybe they didn't realize it was illegal....maybe some here have considered doing an Unpaid Internship, and this thread has caused them to re-think that issue. Until I recently researched it, I didn't realize it actually WAS illegal. I just thought it was a bit on the shady side.
I find it VERY informative when some veterans in the industry B1TCH...as you say about certain things. It gives me fair warning. So, the next time I need permission to ****** about something, I'll be sure to run it by you first....NOT!

jin choung
05-08-2009, 09:45 AM
Much of what you're saying may be true, but I just brought up the issue that not only does the illegal practice seem to be on the rise with the bad economy, but I'm very surprised at how blatant some of the places are. Advertising for interns is a red flag cause a legitimate, legal internship is more of a drag and burden on a company than a benefit.
What's more is your statement that my raising the issue is necessarily b!tching and moaning...so everytime you have something negative to say about Newtek or LW, why is it any less a b!tchfest if you do it?
Instead of b!tching about it here, why not use that time to do something constructive. Newtek's not going to cater to your whims, so why not just move on?
How is this issue different than threads about clients stiffing them or getting on their nerves and such? After all, it's just part of the trade, right? Funny, there were a few gents here that thought it was interesting. Maybe they didn't realize it was illegal....maybe some here have considered doing an Unpaid Internship, and this thread has caused them to re-think that issue. Until I recently researched it, I didn't realize it actually WAS illegal. I just thought it was a bit on the shady side.
I find it VERY informative when some veterans in the industry B1TCH...as you say about certain things. It gives me fair warning. So, the next time I need permission to ****** about something, I'll be sure to run it by you first....NOT!

it's not necessarily the "b1tching".

it's the SUBJECT of b1tching.... seriously - b1tching about piracy or "unfair competitive practices" is just pointless imo. but i'm not saying you can't do it (as if i could). i'm just pointing out how futile it is. why b1tch about something that is basically immutable?

also, the venue for b1tching about the software is appropriate (the software maker's forum... where as it turns out they are working on a new app that might incorporate a lot of the subjects of b1tching).

you could b1tch at a legislator's website i suppose if you entertained any real hopes of effecting change. but i personally wouldn't because stuff like is chump change to them and it is, as i've said, pointless.

jin