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cresshead
08-19-2003, 05:12 PM
after watching larry "splinegod" shultz show how you can make a head from a single poly as a starting point at siggraph i tried it out today and it's a pretty good head i made in a short space of time...

i saved most each edit as a new layer so you can look at how it was made.

if anyone wants the lwo object with all 80 layers to look at send me an email and i'll post it to you.



[email protected]

cheers

steve g:D

riki
08-19-2003, 06:04 PM
Hey cool idea. For some reason it made me remember one of my old head modeling techniques.

re: http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/35626.html?

cresshead
08-19-2003, 06:09 PM
...that link reminds me...i've not had my tea yet!

steve g:D :D :D

riki
08-19-2003, 06:13 PM
haha yeah me too, thanks for the model.

EyesClosed
08-19-2003, 06:18 PM
The edge loops and topology is overall very poor.

Modeling from a polygon is a pretty bad modeling workflow. It could work if you have good reference.

cresshead
08-19-2003, 06:48 PM
Hmm...
i'm no expert on heads but seeng as it was my first head made with this method i think it tuned out pretty nice..

your observation on the edge loops is about right...this was a low detail head with no attempt to rectify loops via spin quads

the workflow is a solid though as desribed by splinegod...just that my model was a first attempt so i just went in with a rough model to see if this way of modeling is "for me"..

steve g

EyesClosed
08-19-2003, 09:09 PM
Well, shouldn't this be in the Gallery/WIP section then?

omeone
08-20-2003, 02:05 AM
I really like the finished image cresshead, the eyes turned out great. how long to model overall?

ghopper
08-20-2003, 06:58 AM
How many people are actually using this method and was Larry the first one using it, i.e. did he "invent" it ?

There are serveral methods out there to model heads and I'm just wondering what the best method is in regards to ease of modeling, later rigging / animation etc.

Or doesn't it really matter which modeling method you use - it only matters what the end result of the mesh is ?

cresshead
08-20-2003, 07:38 AM
i'd say this a good compromise on accuracy verses speed & fun

it's quite good on accuracy as you lay out the lines for the eyes/nose and mouth so they are set up correctly but the main pain is stitching the back of the head on...well..i found it a pain!

there's also the spin shift method as seen on the tutorial area of newtek done by userdelta [tom nguyen]

as well as the spline patch method which can be the most accurate as you build each part [eye, nose,ear etc] and you'll find in the "inside lightave 7" book by Dan Ablan.

as for animating you need to get the flow of the mesh right for deformation to work at it's best so you'll need to "spin" a few polys here n there.

so far i like the spinshift best...but i've yet to try out the spline patch way...we'll see!

steve g

EyesClosed
08-20-2003, 02:20 PM
The modeling workflow doesn't really matter as long as the end result is good. You must keep in mind things like proportions, topology, edge loops, and etc. The goal is to create a lean mesh that will properly deform when animating it.

I've found volume modeling to be by far the best (I've used all others). I've also noticed most professionals (the really good modelers like Bay Raitt) use this method as well.

Anyway, use the method you're comfortable with, and keep your eye on the end result.

SplineGod
08-21-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
The edge loops and topology is overall very poor.

Modeling from a polygon is a pretty bad modeling workflow. It could work if you have good reference.
Only if you dont know how. It just as logical as drawing a head the same way. Ive never seen anyone teach how to draw by starting with a very detailed eye, moving to another detailed eye, nose mouth etc and building it up that way. If you know basic proportions for a human head you dont need reference. If you do have reference, great! The method focuses on the part of the head with the greatest detail. The back of the head is much easier to model unless you need reference for that. :)
The method I demonstrated follows the same logical workflow that drawing does:
Start with a primitive shape
Layout of the centerline, eyeline.. ie. the proportions.
Once the basic form is laid out its very simply to get the flow going using spin quads, smoothshift, bevel, bandsaw etc.
I have literally dozens of examples of people who have successfully modeled heads quickly with this method.

SplineGod
08-21-2003, 01:04 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ghopper
How many people are actually using this method and was Larry the first one using it, i.e. did he "invent" it ?

There are serveral methods out there to model heads and I'm just wondering what the best method is in regards to ease of modeling, later rigging / animation etc.

Or doesn't it really matter which modeling method you use - it only matters what the end result of the mesh is ? [/QUOTE
The method you use doesnt matter when you know what youre doing already. What do you do when you dont? "Noodle points til model looks like head" works for very few people. :)
Ive never seen anyone else teach this method other them myself and Ive been at this a long time.
If a person has very good art background they already know and understand human proportions. In that case most good artists can get good results using whatever method.
This method works very well for someone who hasnt had the hardcore art training but would like to learn how to model a head and learn the basic proportions and anatomy.
Do I model this way now? No, only because Ive modeled so many heads I can skip those basic steps. Its just like learning to draw. You start with very basic steps which you can skip later on as you get the proportions and anatomy down.
Ive taught literally hundreds of people this method and people get it much faster then point by point or volume (box) modeling.
Ive had more people vent their frustration at me at Seminars or on my support forum about trying to wrap their brains on point by point modeling. I understand that Taron, Bay Rait and others use point by point or box modeling but again theyre very experienced artists already.
In my character course I cover this method in great detail as well as spline modeling a head. Both are very easy to pick up. Just the character modeling part of the course is 15 hours. I have some quicktime movies showing the basics of the single poly method, spline modeling and controlling flow HERE (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/sampler.htm)
I modeled this head pretty quickly starting with a single poly.
http://www.splinegod.com/personal/gollum_render_test2.jpg
Heres a wireframe showing the flow.
http://www.splinegod.com/examples/gollum_wireframe.jpg

SplineGod
08-21-2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
Hmm...
i'm no expert on heads but seeng as it was my first head made with this method i think it tuned out pretty nice..

your observation on the edge loops is about right...this was a low detail head with no attempt to rectify loops via spin quads

the workflow is a solid though as desribed by splinegod...just that my model was a first attempt so i just went in with a rough model to see if this way of modeling is "for me"..

steve g
I think its pretty damn good. Far better then my early attempts believe me. :)

riki
08-21-2003, 02:41 AM
I've seen the technique used on the Computer Arts site to create a nose, though they didn't show a step by step process.

comanche
08-21-2003, 03:20 AM
Very nice, Steve. The rendered image looks great!

Cheers,
Andreas

cresshead
08-21-2003, 12:26 PM
Larry, [splinegod]
thanks for the kind comments on my head model...i found the 3 days of the newtek siggraph stream to be very informative...i got a friend to video tape them all! [he has 1 meg broadband]
..i'll be trying your spline patched snake/reptile head this weekend
as well...this 'll be my first foray into spline patching anything other than test bit n bobs....

newtek and the guest speakers really put on a great show.

nice to see people share tips and methods about lightwave.

cheers

steve g:)

cresshead
08-21-2003, 12:30 PM
hi Andreas

re the rendered image....go n open up the hdri scene on your install of lightwave....
copy the surface of the balls...
then apply it to your model...
delete the balls out of the scene
place a backdrop large poly to hide the hdri image behind where the balls were....
change the ground poly to a plain colour

render!

looks cool huh?

steve g

SplineGod
08-21-2003, 12:40 PM
Steve,
Im impressed... :D
If you can watch a video stream and pick up enough from a 20 minute demo youre doing very well. :)

cresshead
08-21-2003, 01:28 PM
hey..just spotted your link to your free tutorials...and there's one on the thing i'm looking at next.."controlling the flow" with spin quads!...

http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/sampler.htm

and you have what looks like the reptile head tutorial!....not downloaded yet but it shold be bigger than the small streamed
avi i have on video tape!

cheers larry...

i'll let you know how i get on!...

wish i saw these sooner! doh!

steve g

SplineGod
08-21-2003, 02:24 PM
Hey Steve,
The spin quads and some of other movies are parts of my Character Course. One of the things I do is to regularly post up more movies to answer questions from students. Its faster and better many times then trying to type up a response. :)

cresshead
08-21-2003, 03:06 PM
hi
yeh i've seen many excellent comments and reviews of your courses.
And seeing as i'm now actively crossing over my skills from 3dsmax [bought 3dsmax/character studio in 1999] to lightwave I'll start to look into getting onto your course as soon as funds allow!

I'm also looking at changing from a 3dsmax/combustion lecturer at a college in the nottinham u.k to getting back into proffesional
3d work with lightwave combustion and max..just havn't found the right post as yet..and still sorting out a new show reel.
[who isn't!!]

cheers for the comments it boosts us all to attain better results.

steve g

SplineGod
08-21-2003, 04:22 PM
Hey Steve, Thanks. :)
Im running a pretty good Siggraph promotion. Any module for $150.00 and Ive been known to be flexible. :)

comanche
08-22-2003, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
hi Andreas

re the rendered image....go n open up the hdri scene on your install of lightwave....
...


Thanks for the hint, Steve!

Cheers,
Andreas