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OnlineRender
04-22-2009, 12:07 PM
usually i wont go on about politics but i reckon it will effect us all .
no political views or opps keep it clean if you can

2 key points#

* Extra funding for digital investing, extending broadband network to everyone

* 750 million investment fund to provide support for emerging technologies science to encourage export, research and development


Glasgow will be the first of several cities to get 100+ meg internet ...yeee ha

more info
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/business/2009/budget_2009/

cresshead
04-22-2009, 05:48 PM
...seems more like throwing petrol onto a bonfire expecting it to put out the blaze...and using borrowed petrol at that..
of course if i get a job out of this borrow now pay later scheme then all well n good..ha ha!

borkus
04-22-2009, 07:10 PM
Agreed. We have had a few examples shown to us in the U.S. that just throwing money at a tumor won't make it go away. But, to that end, there haven't been a lot of alternatives mentioned either. I hope that this spiral can stop soon, but I have my fears that this in going to be one, long ride. Some say that it would take a complete refiguring of the current monetary system to come up with a solution that will benefit everyone equally. From what I've seen so far, it is still us working class that have to pay out the nose for the blunders of others. And it kills me to see us do it time and time again, only to see it not work. Remember the first time you got your hand caught in a mouse trap?..........

*Pete*
04-22-2009, 09:21 PM
its not about spending money or borrowing money that is the problem or solution...the problem is increasing unemployment, which means decreasing purchasing power for the people who lose the jobs.

what your govt (and any other) is trying to do is to keep employment up by creating new jobs, what ever the cost, no matter how its financed...the most important factor in the financial crisis is at the moment if "we" the people can afford to buy products or not...

warmiak
04-23-2009, 10:05 AM
its not about spending money or borrowing money that is the problem or solution...the problem is increasing unemployment, which means decreasing purchasing power for the people who lose the jobs.

what your govt (and any other) is trying to do is to keep employment up by creating new jobs, what ever the cost, no matter how its financed...the most important factor in the financial crisis is at the moment if "we" the people can afford to buy products or not...

Yeah, the only thing government can do is print some more money , spend it on "infrastructure" and other stuff and voila ... things are better, we are out of a recession - except of course now everyone’s dollar/pound/euro is worth less …

There is no magic here Pete – there is no intrinsic value in paper money , every time the fed or whoever controls the process , increases amount of green paper available on the market , the number of green notes you have to pay for something like a computer increases correspondingly.

You are being literally robbed and you don’t even know it …

shrox
04-23-2009, 10:11 AM
Maybe they should print more taxpayers.

Captain Obvious
04-23-2009, 10:16 AM
When I become president, I will make it illegal to be a politician unless you understand basic economics.

shrox
04-23-2009, 10:25 AM
When I become president, I will make it illegal to be a politician unless you understand basic economics.

England does not have a president...

*Pete*
04-23-2009, 10:41 AM
There is no magic here Pete – there is no intrinsic value in paper money , every time the fed or whoever controls the process , increases amount of green paper available on the market , the number of green notes you have to pay for something like a computer increases correspondingly.

You are being literally robbed and you don’t even know it …

personally, ill welcome inflation with open arms...but its becouse i own and have loans on two apartments.

what inflation will do is to drive the "price" up on goods and products, which will drive up the salaries, which will drive up the price on houses..its a circle of increasing cost and price for everything, while in reality there is not so much change in the purchacing power, it does wonders in lowering the dept you would have on a loan taken earlier...

if i have, say a dept of 1000 dollar, salary is 100 dollar.

after a few years of inflation the dept would be 1000 dollar and salary 120 dollar.

since the situation is as it is, the intrest rates will not go up for some time..so in effect, in real value, i will end up with a negative intrest rate (minus percent) since i will end up paying less (or using less working hours) to pay for my dept...i will in effect make money on inflation.

thats why i personally have no problems with inflation...and to be honest, neither should you..its just numbers changing on the price of milk and your salary, but typically one compensates for the other and it makes no difference.

the problem with this crisis is that in its essence it is a dept crisis..we owe too much, by printing more money the real losers will be those who we owe money to..in my case it is my bank, in the case of USA it is China.

but unless you get a hyperinflation (not likely) as in Zimbabwe, you will personally not be affected, the cost will be on those you owe money to.


there are of course many reasons for why USA and other nations avoid inflating the economy...mainly becouse it can trigger an economical war, imagine what happens to your economy, the global economy and the value of the dollar if your inflation pisses of the Chinese so much that they sell their massive dollar reserve...

*Pete*
04-23-2009, 10:44 AM
England does not have a president...

not yet, no..Captain obvious could become the first.

Tranimatronic
04-23-2009, 11:33 AM
Maybe they should print more taxpayers.

or invent a new tax that taxes the tax you have already paid ?
like the one already on petrol ?

jaxtone
04-23-2009, 11:58 AM
This world is ruled by idiots!

warmiak
04-23-2009, 12:09 PM
thats why i personally have no problems with inflation...and to be honest, neither should you..its just numbers changing on the price of milk and your salary, but typically one compensates for the other and it makes no difference.


Well, so I guess we have a winner here ... have a crisis to take care of ?
Just print more money and things "will work out" - after all it is just numbers changing on the price of milk and your salary.

In other words, looks like Pete figured a way to make something out of nothing ...

*Pete*
04-23-2009, 12:43 PM
Well, so I guess we have a winner here ... have a crisis to take care of ?
Just print more money and things "will work out" - after all it is just numbers changing on the price of milk and your salary.

In other words, looks like Pete figured a way to make something out of nothing ...

heh..no, really, im not wrong with my theory.

but i DID forget one part that might be important...your savings will shrink in value, just as my dept will shrink by the decreased value of money.

printing new money is a bad solution, really it is..ill give you that, but for some people, people like me..its the best possible that could happen.

always, no matter if it is about deflation or inflation, increased or decreased intrest rates, there will be someone who loses and others who win.

its a balance shifting, thats all...


in the end, people and nations with dept will be the winners, your foreign dept will shrink as you print more money...or, say that your foreign dept is 1000 dollar and you print more money, the value of the dollar drops towards other currencies, say Euro and Yen.
when you now pay the 1000 dollar to europeans or to the chinese, you are paying it in dollars, not in euros or in yen.

so if you have halved the value of dollar, then while you still pay that 1000 dollar you owe, the chinese or the europeans will in effect get half as much back as they lent you when the dollar was higher in value.

this will piss of other nations, for sure...but thats how it works, you win, others lose.
and since i have more dept than savings, i win too when my goverment will start inflating its economy to keep up the balance with the dollar.

but if you manage to drop the value of the dollar even as much as 10 percent, your foreign dept just got 10 percent less...you simply sent the bill to China and to Europe.

so unless you have significant savings, you wont lose anything..and if you do have savings, invest in gold or other goods that will keep its value unaffected by the printed money.

*Pete*
04-23-2009, 12:50 PM
besides Warmiak...you are of German origin, you should know why Germany had its hyperinflation after ww1.

it was no accident, it was controlled and planned...you had to pay off an enourmous wardept, but you paid it in German currency...the super inflation of the German currency did that you were able to pay the set sum fast, but France, England and others actually got a small fraction of what they expected to get.

had Germany not went through the inflation then it would have been a poor nation for decades to come...but, as always there was those who suffered, what Germany did was a hyperinflation and the salary dropped in value so fast that if you didnt buy bread the day you got the salary, you could not afford to buy bread the next day since the value had dropped on the money so fast.

it caused a lot of problems among the population in Germany...but i dont think USA will have to go so far with inflating its economy, no chance actually...a couple percent tops, i think.

Captain Obvious
04-23-2009, 05:25 PM
England does not have a president...
It will soon enough.

borkus
04-23-2009, 06:31 PM
Pete, you offer a few perspectives that I hadn't considered. But, you also mentioned that it will only help those that are buried in debt or those that are stinking rich already. So, inflating the dollar value will, like you said, have negative impacts as well. I was also referring to the bailouts that have so far shown that it has a negative impact as well. Many banks are now refusing them. I don't know enough about economics, but I would have to think that if a firm who's primary concern is money is turning down money, there has got to be some reason. We tried bailing out Wallstreet. That did squat. We tried bailing out AIG. That was almost humorous if you could keep yourself from getting angry at the fact that it was our tax dollars funding such a fiasco. Now GM, Chrysler... Who else will stick their hands out? And, to Warmiack. Can't we have an adult discussion for once without somebody turning it personal yet again? Why can't you just offer your points of view and be civil about it. I respect a lot of people in here and would like to hear opinions on things besides just 3d stuff. Please try to act like an adult so that this thread won't get locked yet again because somebody wanted to be a keyboard "tuffguy".......

*Pete*
04-23-2009, 09:32 PM
banks.

why they turn down the money is becouse of several reasons.

its a sign of weakness and affects stockmarket value negatively.

they may not be so deep in problems yet and can survive by tightening down on loans they consider unsafe.


personally, while the bailout was and is necessary, id go a step further and not bail out but buy out (nationalise) the failing banks.
you would get negative consequences of that as well, but the positives would be stronger...in this case the bank could be directed to lend out money and to stop hoarding it, we cant demand it from a private bank..only hope that they will do so.

the problem is not lack of money, it really matters nothing at all..makes no difference, the problem is that money is not moving.
when companies cant get loans for paying salaries on low season, or invest in equipment that would increase productivity then our economy stops..becouse those companies will have to let go of their workers and to stop growing.

the need for services didnt dissapear, we still need X amount of houses to be built, but without loans from banks we simply cant fund the building of them...


we had a banking crisis in scandinavia and our goverments simply nationalised any bank that failed without hesitation..the stock owners lost on it, but as owners of the banks we could stop bonuses, we could order the bank to lend out money...as it turned out, the banks were making profit again after a few years and our goverments sold them out to private sector again...

end result`
crisis stopped very fast.
goverment made a profit by nationalising the banks.


as for nationalising, its not so that the bank gets a letter that "we own you now"..no, the bank has problems and the govt sends them a proposal "we will buy your bank for X millions, is it ok?"
they can refuse and try to find a way to make it through, or they can sell out to the goverment.

likewise, once the bank is stable, the govt will send out a message that "this bank is for sale" and see what kinds of offers it gets for it, an offer good enough and the bank is sold to private hands once again.

there is nothing communistic about it...its just paying and getting control, instead of just paying and hoping for a result.

*Pete*
04-23-2009, 09:37 PM
and no Borkus..inflation will not help those who are rich, more of the opposite since the value of money drops.

if you have 1000 dollar in the bank, before the inflation you can buy 100 hamburgers with it.

after a 50% inflation you still have the 1000 dollar in the bank,but you can only buy 50 hamburgers with it.

if you have a 1000 dollar dept, today you have to sell 100 hamburgers to pay for it.

after a 50% inflation you have 1000 dollar dept but only have to sell 50 hamburgers to pay for it.


so you see, its just a shift in balance...some win, others lose.

some things, as gold, typically stays at the same relative level of value with the inflation..you will most likely need to work just as long to be able to buy a kg of gold before as after the inflation...

its complicated, but roughly like that.

warmiak
04-23-2009, 10:00 PM
Why can't you just offer your points of view and be civil about it. I respect a lot of people in here and would like to hear opinions on things besides just 3d stuff. Please try to act like an adult so that this thread won't get locked yet again because somebody wanted to be a keyboard "tuffguy".......

I was quit civil about it ... it was a humorus way to make a rather serious point.

If you don't get it then you don't get it - that's all there is to it.

*Pete*
04-23-2009, 10:36 PM
In Norway, we have a saying that goes like "with pain you cure pain" or "with evil you repell evil"...somehow fits well with the solutions for the financial crisis, what ever we do or do not do, it will be painfull.

and another thing that Norwegians say, is "nothing is that bad that there is nothing good in it"...inflation sucks for most, but theres always some who win on it, the same with the financial crisis...lots of companies suffer, but some of them are getting rid of many competitors with this crisis.

my employer has lost 25% in sales, but his competitors have lost 50% or more...so while we all suffer, we actually do increase of marketshare relatively seen towards our competition, some time more and we might even see some of the competition disspear completely and after things go smoothly again, we might have huge winnings thanks to the crisis.

colkai
04-24-2009, 04:05 AM
It will soon enough.

I thought we had a dictator? :p
Would you buy a used car from that guy? I certainly wouldn't.

"We fubar'd the country, blew the money, so we need to raise taxes in order for YOU to pay back what WE lost. It's for your benefit honest." :devil:

Captain Obvious
04-24-2009, 04:15 AM
"We fubar'd the country, blew the money, so we need to raise taxes in order for YOU to pay back what WE lost. It's for your benefit honest." :devil:
I pay my local council about 150 every month, and the only thing they do that's of any major use to me is collecting the trash. I think it might just be the world's most expensive trash collection and recycling plan!

DiedonD
04-24-2009, 04:17 AM
and another thing that Norwegians say, is "nothing is that bad that there is nothing good in it"

Well there is no economic crisis here!

Thats a sarcastic joke, cause we were already in crisis after the lootings and destruction from paramilitary Serbs on our war! And that left us with more than a 60% unemployment afterwards!

So, nobody else is loosing their jobs today, nobody else has more financial problems than before this Global Economic Crisis! Its still growing slowly and stadily here, in a similar way as everywhere!

The global economic crisis has abandoned us in disgust, cause there wasnt much here anyways.

So the good thing in all this, is that we get to work and grow in the economy together worldwide!

Brothers in Economy growth?

cresshead
04-24-2009, 05:23 AM
we're all doomed!
ecconoic crysis,
the sun's cooling down and a mini iceage is due
climate change
the bees are dying out
tv shows are all poo thesedays
films are hyped too much
no one like the color brown anymore! [gordon>]
wars don''t seem to drive innivation anymore..we need a PROPER BIG war to step forward as a race...last war got us the 'cold war' and the space race...nowdays people champion talent shows...gee how poo is that!

DiedonD
04-24-2009, 05:28 AM
we're all doomed!
ecconoic crysis,
the sun's cooling down and a mini iceage is due
climate change
the bees are dying out
tv shows are all poo thesedays
films are hyped too much
no one like the color brown anymore! [gordon>]
wars don''t seem to drive innivation anymore..we need a PROPER BIG war to step forward as a race...last war got us the 'cold war' and the space race...nowdays people champion talent shows...gee how poo is that!

Easy there Cress. This whole Economic Doom scenarios has gotten to much to you it seems. What you need is more cats :D . Or better yet! More small Cressies to help you determine whats really important :thumbsup:

shrox
04-24-2009, 06:01 AM
or invent a new tax that taxes the tax you have already paid ?
like the one already on petrol ?

My comment was meant to point out an absurd option, one that is impossible... well, wait a minute, they could just generate new social security numbers, and fractalize up a bunch fake fingerprints and faces, then access penalties against these new "vapor taxpayers"...oh man, I just placed an idea in some politician's mind.

warmiak
04-24-2009, 08:04 AM
and the space race...

Yeah, well, they went to the moon ... and never went back there- obviously, it wasn't worth going there in the first place.

JBT27
04-24-2009, 01:36 PM
It will soon enough.

Hmmm.....that will happen after the next civil war here.....

Julian.

cresshead
04-24-2009, 01:42 PM
Yeah, well, they went to the moon ... and never went back there- obviously, it wasn't worth going there in the first place.

read some history on "why" they went there.

warmiak
04-24-2009, 03:19 PM
read some history on "why" they went there.

Small dick syndrome

cresshead
04-24-2009, 03:45 PM
Small dick syndrome

cold war actually

warmiak
04-25-2009, 02:33 AM
cold war actually

That's what I said.

shrox
04-27-2009, 03:15 AM
Yeah, well, they went to the moon ... and never went back there- obviously, it wasn't worth going there in the first place.

Do you have any clue as to the daily benefits you enjoy as a byproduct of the US going to the moon?

shrox
04-27-2009, 03:17 AM
Small dick syndrome

Nevermind

cresshead
04-27-2009, 03:26 AM
Do you have any clue as to the daily benefits you enjoy as a byproduct of the US going to the moon?

yeah the personal computer everyone uses theredays...that was a by product of the essential need to make a small, light guidence computer for flying to the moon inside the rocket and not just rely on communications to the huge computers back in the usa that were a few rooms in size.

if you don't regard the personal computer as a day to day product i'll list something else but it's one of the obvious ones.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Apollo_1024_bit_core_memory_module.jpg/250px-Apollo_1024_bit_core_memory_module.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/AGC_user_interface.jpg/250px-AGC_user_interface.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Dsky.jpg/180px-Dsky.jpg

tayotain2
04-27-2009, 03:44 AM
This world is ruled by idiots!

Yes? Somebody called me?

shrox
04-27-2009, 03:58 AM
yeah the personal computer everyone uses theredays...that was a by product of the essential need to make a small, light guidence computer for flying to the moon inside the rocket and not just rely on communications to the huge computers back in the usa that were a few rooms in size.

if you don't regard the personal computer as a day to day product i'll list something else but it's one of the obvious ones.



Miniaturization of devices, Velcro, further development of lasers (used to measure distances, used in your CD and DVD drives), food packaging techniques, adhesives, paint, heat insulating materials, lubricants (your car uses them), high quality color video broadcasting, high torque electric drive motors. Whatever the reason that drove these developments, you use at least 10 every day.

Statements that knock the benefits of the US space program always set me off...usually made by some dim witted consumer of the very products made possible by the space efforts.

cresshead
04-27-2009, 04:13 AM
Miniaturization of devices, Velcro, further development of lasers (used to measure distances, used in your CD and DVD drives), food packaging techniques, adhesives, paint, heat insulating materials, lubricants (your car uses them), high quality color video broadcasting, high torque electric drive motors. Whatever the reason that drove these developments, you use at least 10 every day.

Statements that knock the benefits of the US space program always set me off...usually made by some dim witted consumer of the very products made possible by the space efforts.

:agree:

worth a read also>>
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/Apollomon/apollo3.pdf

of course many people posting are to young too be aware of just how far we've come since the space race..they grew up with computers in their home, cd players, video players, mobile telephones etc...they think they "just appeared" out of thin air.

*Pete*
04-27-2009, 08:03 AM
Small dick syndrome

very true.

*Pete*
04-27-2009, 08:06 AM
Miniaturization of devices, Velcro, further development of lasers (used to measure distances, used in your CD and DVD drives), food packaging techniques, adhesives, paint, heat insulating materials, lubricants (your car uses them), high quality color video broadcasting, high torque electric drive motors. Whatever the reason that drove these developments, you use at least 10 every day.

Statements that knock the benefits of the US space program always set me off...usually made by some dim witted consumer of the very products made possible by the space efforts.

i have a pillow made by Nasa technology...or sort of, made by a competitor of the Nasa tech, but still..the spacerace did trigger a huge mass of advanced technology that over time "trickled down" do us, the consumers...

shrox
04-27-2009, 08:21 AM
very true.

Since most of you were not alive during that time, you don't know what it felt like to see a man walk on the moon live on television, in black and white, grainy and staticy.

*Pete*
04-27-2009, 08:28 AM
Since most of you were not alive during that time, you don't know what it felt like to see a man walk on the moon live on television, in black and white, grainy and staticy.

no worries..im not against it at all and i do see it as one of the true milestones in human evolution...but saying that it was done becouse of Penis envy is actually very, very fitting :D

think about it, sovjet DID have the bigger penis with the first satelite, first man in space, first spacewalk and were almost on the way to be the first on the moon as well....there was a lot to be envious of and in many ways, had it not been USA who in the end showed up with the biggest penis on the moon..eh..first man on the moon, then USA never would have been the receipient of the feeling of what you described...instead of pure happiness and marvel, you might have felt disapoinment and threat...and perhaps a little envy too, if the first penis..man, on the moon would be from Sovjet.

it think Penis envy is perhaps more fitting than any other description, but it doesnt make the achievement any less marvellous.

shrox
04-27-2009, 08:38 AM
x

shrox
04-27-2009, 08:39 AM
no worries..im not against it at all and i do see it as one of the true milestones in human evolution...but saying that it was done becouse of Penis envy is actually very, very fitting :D

think about it, sovjet DID have the bigger penis with the first satelite, first man in space, first spacewalk and were almost on the way to be the first on the moon as well....there was a lot to be envious of and in many ways, had it not been USA who in the end showed up with the biggest penis on the moon..eh..first man on the moon, then USA never would have been the receipient of the feeling of what you described...instead of pure happiness and marvel, you might have felt disapoinment and threat...and perhaps a little envy too, if the first penis..man, on the moon would be from Sovjet.

it think Penis envy is perhaps more fitting than any other description, but it doesnt make the achievement any less marvellous.


I am glad I don't think of tall things as penises...it's not all about testosterone. Also, much of it was related to the assassination (murder) of John F. Kennedy, and the need to heal from it.

*Pete*
04-27-2009, 08:50 AM
many beatifull things are made after the form of a ..eh..you know, Jaguar E-type (i think) is actually formed after the male limb and considered as one of the best looking cars ever made ;)

damn, its difficult to claim to be a homophobic after these kinds of discussions lol

still, the space race was more motivated to be better than Sovjet than any actual scientific or economical reason to get to the moon.
the whole lot of technology and all that are just secondary products, the main product was national pride.

nothing wrong with that, and hopefully we will get a similiar race in green energy and similiar things..but i seriously doubt it.

colkai
04-27-2009, 08:55 AM
Since most of you were not alive during that time, you don't know what it felt like to see a man walk on the moon live on television, in black and white, grainy and staticy.

Yup, that and watching the very first ever shuttle landing, both with my dad, very much landmark moments. It's hard for many to understand just how much we have these days that didn't exist back then, never mind the stuff that only the very wealthy could afford which now every house has probably 2 or three of!

shrox
04-27-2009, 09:11 AM
many beatifull things are made after the form of a ..eh..you know, Jaguar E-type (i think) is actually formed after the male limb and considered as one of the best looking cars ever made ;)


I think Jaguars are rather ugly cars.

Now, if you want testosterone in cars, my old 1070 Dodge Charger was a perfect example!! (Neither of these are mine, but one day, I shall rule the streets again!)

warmiak
04-27-2009, 10:21 PM
Miniaturization of devices, Velcro, further development of lasers (used to measure distances, used in your CD and DVD drives), food packaging techniques, adhesives, paint, heat insulating materials, lubricants (your car uses them), high quality color video broadcasting, high torque electric drive motors. Whatever the reason that drove these developments, you use at least 10 every day.

Statements that knock the benefits of the US space program always set me off...usually made by some dim witted consumer of the very products made possible by the space efforts.

You missing the point .. all these things would have happened anyway at a fraction of the cost.

If there is a need , it will be fulfilled and if it is left to people who are actually interested in making money on it , it will be done and ready at 1/100 of the original Nasa cost.

Trust me , a corporation like Nvidia or Intel will use its resources much more efficiently trying to compete in the market as opposed to getting fat and rusty on essentially unlimited government funds.

Some things never fail … one of them is the fact that just about every government contract will always result in incredible waste and huge cost overruns.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29513895//

shrox
04-28-2009, 02:56 AM
You missing the point .. all these things would have happened anyway at a fraction of the cost.

If there is a need , it will be fulfilled and if it is left to people who are actually interested in making money on it , it will be done and ready at 1/100 of the original Nasa cost.

Trust me , a corporation like Nvidia or Intel will use its resources much more efficiently trying to compete in the market as opposed to getting fat and rusty on essentially unlimited government funds.

Some things never fail one of them is the fact that just about every government contract will always result in incredible waste and huge cost overruns.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29513895//

Not as fast though, the program accellerated the development of technology.

*Pete*
04-28-2009, 03:08 AM
You missing the point .. all these things would have happened anyway at a fraction of the cost.


but not yet...

the space race did boost technology in a massive scale,


if you follow the Formel 1 competion and its constant technological improvements to get that fraction of a second faster lap times, or the constant improvements in safety after accidents...you might find that most of that technology is groundbreaking and innovative, much of this appears into normal cars later on even if you could never imagine any resemblance to the small, fast formula one cars.

the space race did exactly the same, but on a much larger scale...

another example is WW2, the need for better, faster fighter and bomber aircraft gave us the technology that we use for travelling today..we would have gotten that technology sooner or later anyway, jet engines and large aircraft propelled by them...but the massive effort to get them fast in the war where every day spent could mean win or lose in the war.

the space race is no different, while i agree with you that it was caused by "penis envy", i do not agree with you on that it was useless spending that was good for nothing.

just tell me why anyone on the private sector would invest gazillions of dollars to make massive rockets that demand the effort of tens of thousands of highly skilled workers?...to put a tv satelite up in space?

i doubt it, more likely we would have found an economical solution with ground based cables providing tv channels to the bigger (profitable) cities alone.

the money spent on the space race and the technology would have been too high for anyone from the private sector to even try at, but once the money had been spent, by the goverment, the discovered technology, gained experience and ready built infrastructure has allowed for it to provide tv, weather and gps (and more) services cost effectively.

none of those would be possible without the space race..none of it.
sure we would have alternatives but they would all be based on cost effiency, which is not always the best long term investment.

shrox
04-29-2009, 03:32 AM
I really don't agree with the "penis envy" comments. Unless freedom (USA, Western Europe, etc) vs. oppression ( USSR, China, etc.) is that. Most of the posters don't remember that wall that divided the world. Chunks of it are in museums now. West of the wall was relatively free, East of the wall, and comments like found in this very thread would have resulting in many posters missing the next morning.

It's foolish to try and reduce it all down to some little two word phrase. I have mentioned the real reason we beat the Russians to the moon, here is the speech that did it. I know, many of you will still come back with the same remark, but a least I tried to educate you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kza-iTe2100

If anything, it was penis envy on the Russian side. I say that not because I am an American, I say it because just looking at Soviet technology, you can see they merely copied Western technology in many instances. Look at the the Buran shuttle craft, or the Concordski.

*Pete*
04-29-2009, 03:55 AM
I really don't agree with the "penis envy" comments. Unless freedom (USA, Western Europe, etc) vs. oppression ( USSR, China, etc.) is that.

that has nothing to do with it...your freedom didnt send a man to the moon, nor did sovjet oppression send up the first man to space.

it was all technology, in both cases...Sovjet rockets were better, safer and cheaper and if Sovjet had managed to send a man to the moon before USA, they would be able to claim that the socialistic/communistic system is the future for mankind, as it can concentrate its efforts to something great for humanity better than a capitalistic system, which is more based on selfish needs.

the race for the moon was REAL and winning it did have massive consequences for us today.

it was penis envy in the sence that both sides were looking at eachothers achievements with envy and worked nonstop to improve own...

technologically Sovjet never was so much backwards as most do think today, but they did have massive (but well hidden) problems with human rights..

*Pete*
04-29-2009, 03:59 AM
If anything, it was penis envy on the Russian side. I say that not because I am an American, I say it because just looking at Soviet technology, you can see they merely copied Western technology in many instances. Look at the the Buran shuttle craft, or the Concordski.

look at the helmet US fighter pilots use, where you can target missiles by looking at the enemy instead of pointing your plane at them...Sovjet tech.

look at the mars rover running around in Mars..Sovjet tech.

everybody copies from everybody...its normal, altough i admit that Concordski was shameless lol
(but it was a better aircraft, far as i know)

shrox
04-29-2009, 04:08 AM
I just find "penis envy" to be such a juvenile term. I tend to dismiss comments that use it.

Lightwolf
04-29-2009, 05:15 AM
I just find "penis envy" to be such a juvenile term. I tend to dismiss comments that use it.
Yeah, Freud was such a juvenile old man, wasn't he? ;)

Cheers,
Mike

shrox
04-29-2009, 06:11 AM
Most people don't use the term properly.

Lightwolf
04-29-2009, 06:12 AM
Most people don't use the term properly.
Well, blame the people, not the term then :p

Cheers,
Mike

shrox
04-29-2009, 06:28 AM
Well, blame the people, not the term then :p

Cheers,
Mike

I did cite the user, as in "I tend to dismiss comments that use it."

The term "penis envy" comes from an article written by Sigmund Freud. It is his THOERY that some females are envious of the perceived strength of men, and he centered that strength in the penis.

Thus, using the term to describe a "competition" of sorts between two political and governmental systems is outside of it's definition.

I disagree with many of Freud's theories. And yes, I use spellcheck...

Lightwolf
04-29-2009, 06:36 AM
The term "penis envy" comes from an article written by Sigmund Freud. It is his THOERY that some females are envious of the perceived strength of men, and he centered that strength in the penis.
...
I disagree with many of Freud's theories. And yes, I use spellcheck...
It's theory, and you obviously don't spellcheck (at least not capitalized words) :D *grin*

Seriously though, while different from Freuds (imho flawed as well) theories, there is a further definition of the term: http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=81510

And I don't think it's far fetched to use it to describe any competitive situation (especially if it is predominantly pushed by males).

Cheers,
Mike

shrox
04-29-2009, 06:39 AM
Whatever.

Lightwolf
04-29-2009, 06:47 AM
Whatever.
Hey, what happened to your sense of humour? :hey:

Cheers,
Mike

*Pete*
04-29-2009, 08:57 AM
Heh...Penis envy takes away much of the achiement.

but truth to be told, the motivation to get to the moon came of Sovjet sending a satelite to space...

while it was not intented to be anything else than "hello world" by the sovjet scientists it did scare and impress the rest of the world, scare as in intercontinental nuclear armed missiles and impress as in "WOW, first man made object in space"

when Sovjet followed up with the first animal (Dog, Laika) and first man (Jurij Gagarin) in space USA was falling short of wow factors to impress the world with, this was by now already the domain of Sovjet, now perceived as the most advanced nation...so what if USA had color tv's?, Sovjet had the superior technology for space flights.

USA had to do better and matching the sovjets with manmade objects, animals or humans in space just didnt do anymore...the moon was the goal.

the spacerace started out as a scientific experiment, sending a manmade object into space...but it fast evolved into a fight for prestige.

what did we expect to get from having a man on the moon?..nothing but prestige, the glory of being first.

Penis envy, even if i agree with Shrox that it is a juvelie term, is actually suprisingly fitting to the whole...its just the scale that was much larger.
there was a lot at stake, but it was all political...after the space race we got lots of technology that we enjoy a lot today, but it was a secondary, not planned effect of it.

the real purpose was a show of power, to stop the Sovjets from being the top space explorers.

but still, Sovjet has more milestones for space than USA, this will not change any time soon.

that said, it must have been amazing for those who lived at the time, i was born 1974 and missed a lot of the party but still, seeing the photo of an astronaut on the moon is impressive...even today.

warmiak
04-29-2009, 10:58 AM
Not as fast though, the program accellerated the development of technology.

Having people fork over half of their salary in taxes and spending all of that money in some secret lab trying to develop a flying car would undoubtely "accelerate" the process .... but so what ?

Are we trying to compete with Pharaons and their famous pyramids ?

cresshead
04-29-2009, 11:19 AM
yeah why not settle for "mediocre"?...or we can really make a push for apathy and make great strides back into the stone age and throw away the wheel and embrace rickets, polio, astology, child labor and a life expectancy of 40.

Tranimatronic
04-29-2009, 11:23 AM
embrace rickets.

but not too hard - that might make matters worse

cresshead
04-29-2009, 11:28 AM
but not too hard - that might make matters worse

i love to see an "OPT OUT" solution for those who don't like to pay into the human races advancements for their tax dollars/pounds and MAKE it case iron sealed that they got ZERO from any such things if they fell ill or needed such things in future....


then see how many would sign up once they were made to read the small print...

*Pete*
04-29-2009, 11:38 AM
Opt out = military spending.

if we all did it, nobody would have an army and the wars would be fought by firemen and firetrucks...would be a cool fight, specially at summer time...worse in a scandinavian winter, but still better than a full out war with armies...

cresshead
04-29-2009, 11:45 AM
Opt out = military spending.

if we all did it, nobody would have an army and the wars would be fought by firemen and firetrucks...would be a cool fight, specially at summer time...worse in a scandinavian winter, but still better than a full out war with armies...

the "if we all did it" is as likely as the earth being flat and reading your horoscope actually being linked 'to you':D

looking back at history...when lands had no armies or they had weak defences...their neigbours invaded them and enslaved them...can't see that not being the case in future..so that 'ideal' is fundamentaly flawed.

people arn't 'nice' by default...they need a reason to be 'nice'...think about it.

*Pete*
04-29-2009, 11:58 AM
people arn't 'nice' by default...they need a reason to be 'nice'...think about it.

we could arm each and every nation with nuclear weapons, enough to completely wipe out half a hemisphere...so if any of those firemen would actually get injured....

that way we would force everyone to be nice...as long as nobody gets harmed it really doesnt matter if the invasion force is made up of clowns or firemen, really...nobody in their right mind would invade a nuclear nation anyway, not seriously atleast.


and what did you mean about the world not being flat and horoscope not being trustworthy?