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Dexter2999
04-18-2009, 01:02 PM
So I was looking over my training DVD's (many which I watched once and never really learned) and I picked up my DVD on Weightmaps and Endomorphs.

I was wondering how many people are using endomorphs on a regular basis now as opposed to going to a sculpt program?

IMI
04-18-2009, 01:10 PM
Hey alright, I was the first one to vote. Cool. That's never happened before. :D

I voted, "Dude, you need more options."

I don't understand why you're suggesting endomorphs and sculpting are mutually exclusive though, unless I'm misunderstanding this. I use Modo 302's sculpting quite often to create morphs for LW objects, when there's an endomorph I want to create that will be easier with scuplting than dragging points around.

So yeah, I'm going to another program for that, but the endomorphs end up in LW on my object or figure through the b/g to morph plugin.

geothefaust
04-18-2009, 02:08 PM
I believe Dexter is talking about Animated Sculpted (or as some call it AniSculpt) vs Endomorphs. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Erm, the end result is essentially the same. I'm going to have to put my vote to a combination deal here... AniSculpt and traditional modeling with the ability to save and load them. I guess that sounds like endomorphs still, but with AniSculpt thrown in.

So last option, you need one more option:

Hybrid

:)

Dexter2999
04-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Well, endomorphs have a use as morph targets. But how many people use them for texturing or modeling?

lwanmtr
04-18-2009, 03:46 PM
I still use endomorphs...why sculpt eyelids opening or things like that. Endos are still one of the things that Maya and Max dont have.

Dexter2999
04-18-2009, 05:23 PM
I still use endomorphs...why sculpt eyelids opening or things like that. Endos are still one of the things that Maya and Max dont have.

I see your point but at the same time... why model an eyelid with an endomorph if you are going into a sculpt to add wrinkles and skin pores anyway?

I'm just curious how much sculpt software is impacting artists workflow. Especially newer artists.

I remember when I was starting out, my friends with more experience kept commenting on my high poly count. But with faster processors and faster render engines my rendertimes were still nothing. So it didn't seem to matter. It created some really bad work habits. I don't think I make anything that is usable in a game engine.

prospector
04-18-2009, 06:03 PM
had to put more options...
Seems as if all questions were negative endos.

lwanmtr
04-18-2009, 06:10 PM
I know I dont make anything that could fit in a game engine..hehe.

Wrinkles and skin pores can be normal maps applied to the LW object..so if you model the object with endos, you can work on a seperate model to generate the normal maps.
To be sure, might not be quite as good as having the actual geometry wrinkles and such, but it makes it easier to open and close those eyes...hehe. You could also make endos using the high geometry wrinkled up object too....Endos are simply efficient morph targets which can be used in conjunction with sculpts...

Sculpting is a modeling teqnique, while endos are more on the animation end of things..

IMI
04-18-2009, 06:21 PM
I'm not understanding how endomorphs could be used for modeling anyway. Am I missing something here? The endomorph is the result of modeling, a change in vertex position.

But aside from that, one thing I have done in LW is to use bones for modeling on a few occasions. Pop a few strategically placed bones into your object in Layout and save out transformed object. Can also be used to create endomorphs for later use.

lwanmtr
04-18-2009, 06:44 PM
Yeah, two different beasties here...like comparing apples to pizza (mmmmm....pizza)..

Now, if it were sculpting vs sudb or something, the poll would make more sense..

dandeentremont
04-18-2009, 07:11 PM
In real life, most things are not perfectly symmetrical (faces for instance). But it still is much easier to model it symmetrically. I like to use endomorphs to, say, droop the left eyelid of a character, just to make it a bit asymmetrical. That can push the realism up a smidge.
I might also occasionally make a morph that "skins" the character in preparation for a making a uv map.
Aside from that, I don't really use morphs much in the modeling process.

IMI
04-18-2009, 07:37 PM
The problem with endomorphs in Modeler is their limitations. An endomorph is really only a vertex map, describing the position of a set of points, and you can only "display" one at a time. So if you have a morph for a closed left eye and a morph for a right closed eye, you can only see the effects of one at a time in Modeler and only at 100%

Of course in Layout you can have multiple morphs at any time and a whole range of percentage values for each, but it would be cool to be able to do that in Modeler too.

sammael
04-18-2009, 08:12 PM
I use always morphs when creating the uv map. I'll break the object up, create a morph then adjust the mesh so it unwraps properly with no extra adjustment needed (using plg) then delete the morph, merge points and bingo.... its very handy for that, can unwrap a detailed character very quickly first time every time without stuffing arround too much.

They have their place to a point where I couldnt live without them.

IMI
04-18-2009, 10:16 PM
I use always morphs when creating the uv map. I'll break the object up, create a morph then adjust the mesh so it unwraps properly with no extra adjustment needed (using plg) then delete the morph, merge points and bingo.... its very handy for that, can unwrap a detailed character very quickly first time every time without stuffing arround too much.

They have their place to a point where I couldnt live without them.

Yeah I've tried that a few times recently and it's a pretty cool technique, really. William Vaughn has a video of doing something similar to that, but using Layout's cloth dynamics instead of an endomorph, for unwrapping a head, and then you just use planar in LW's standard UV unwrapping tools.

geothefaust
04-18-2009, 11:45 PM
I use always morphs when creating the uv map. I'll break the object up, create a morph then adjust the mesh so it unwraps properly with no extra adjustment needed (using plg) then delete the morph, merge points and bingo.... its very handy for that, can unwrap a detailed character very quickly first time every time without stuffing arround too much.

They have their place to a point where I couldnt live without them.

I do a similar thing, except I just use different surfaces to achieve that. It's pretty quick.

dandeentremont
04-20-2009, 10:18 AM
I use always morphs when creating the uv map. I'll break the object up, create a morph then adjust the mesh so it unwraps properly with no extra adjustment needed (using plg) then delete the morph, merge points and bingo....

This brings up something I encountered recently.
Am I crazy, or did older versions of lightwave allow you to merge points without having to delete morphs that separated such points?

dandeentremont
04-20-2009, 10:25 AM
The problem with endomorphs in Modeler is their limitations. An endomorph is really only a vertex map, describing the position of a set of points, and you can only "display" one at a time. So if you have a morph for a closed left eye and a morph for a right closed eye, you can only see the effects of one at a time in Modeler and only at 100%

Of course in Layout you can have multiple morphs at any time and a whole range of percentage values for each, but it would be cool to be able to do that in Modeler too.

http://www.dstorm.co.jp/english/plugin/vmap.htm#MorphMapMixer

There is a plugin on this page called MorphMap Mixer, which is a morph mixer for modeler.

UnCommonGrafx
04-20-2009, 10:39 AM
Not true. There are plugins available that will let you mix endos, using a slider, to get in-betweens of the in-betweens. Amazing stuff when it's all working right.

So if you have a morph for a closed left eye and a morph for a right closed eye, you can only see the effects of one at a time in Modeler and only at 100%

dandeentremont beat me to that one with a link.


Am I crazy, or did older versions of lightwave allow you to merge points without having to delete morphs that separated such points?
Always that way as I recall.

IMI
04-20-2009, 11:58 AM
http://www.dstorm.co.jp/english/plugin/vmap.htm#MorphMapMixer

There is a plugin on this page called MorphMap Mixer, which is a morph mixer for modeler.

Thanks, I never heard of that one before. 32 bit only though.

dandeentremont
04-20-2009, 12:00 PM
It's got a 64 bit folder when you download it. I haven't actually tried it in 64, though.

IMI
04-20-2009, 12:03 PM
Oh really? Cool, thanks. I hadn't checked it out yet, just saw the date on it and figured there was no way it would be anything but 32 bit.

SplineGod
04-20-2009, 01:11 PM
Definately these days I would go with something like Silo, Zbrush, 3dcoat, mudbox etc for sculpting. 3dcoat especially supports layers where you can export each sculpting layer as an endomorph to LW.
Also in layout you can use morphmixer to blend morphs and save the result as a new endomorph. This works as well as the Dstorm plugin but works on every version of LW

howardt
04-22-2009, 06:09 AM
It's got a 64 bit folder when you download it. I haven't actually tried it in 64, though.

I tried the 64 and it didn't work on my Wndows XP 64 machine, sadly.

This is functionality that should be built into Lightwave. I'll be CORE will get something like it.