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calilifestyle
04-15-2009, 10:48 AM
http://www.projectmessiah.com/

I dont see any post here yet. The give a price drop to Modo and Autodesk users. no Newtek love hehe. But they also have some new videos.

Looks good

Nicolas Jordan
04-15-2009, 10:51 AM
Ya looks cool, I am considering upgrading my 2.x license before the specials run out. I may throw my $400 at messiah for now instead of Core but I intend to get Core later once it matures more. Looks like PMG is really targeting modo users and taking advantage of the fact they have no character rigging stuff yet and won't for another 1-2 years probably. This is smart marketing on the part of PMG! :)

adamredwoods
04-15-2009, 11:16 AM
Hehe, they've really built this app in reverse-- animation first, rendering second?

But seriously, that Messiah interface is starting to get really cluttered!

UnCommonGrafx
04-15-2009, 12:19 PM
It's an F'ed up interface on that front, for sure!

Ulven
04-15-2009, 01:10 PM
Hehe, they've really built this app in reverse-- animation first, rendering second?

Character animation is not to be snuffed at, and is, a very difficult thing to master. With all the renderers out there I wouldn't take shame focusing on that for one split second.


But seriously, that Messiah interface is starting to get really cluttered!

It's an F'ed up interface on that front, for sure!

Actually it's pretty simple. Everything you need to do any one task is organized under each one tab. So all the rigging effects and weighting is under one tab, all the constraints are under one tab, all the rendering is done in one tab, all the animation is done under one tab and all the non linear editing is done in another (etc). At first that might seem strange but it's a very effective form of working.

UnCommonGrafx
04-15-2009, 01:49 PM
Come on, Ulven,
It ain't as simple as you've painted it. One must bounce around to a lot of areas to accomplish things. And if you have that darned flickering bug it can be awfully frustrating.
That all said, the last part of your post is the case: it is very effective at getting done what it's focused on.
How long ago, I wonder, would an update had to have happened to be able to get 4 for free...?

Ulven
04-15-2009, 01:59 PM
Come on, Ulven,
It ain't as simple as you've painted it. One must bounce around to a lot of areas to accomplish things. And if you have that darned flickering bug it can be awfully frustrating.
That all said, the last part of your post is the case: it is very effective at getting done what it's focused on.
How long ago, I wonder, would an update had to have happened to be able to get 4 for free...?

The flickering bug is just a matter of setting a setting in your graphics card, look it up at the forum on cgtalk if you want to know how to fix it.
The interface is as simple as I have painted it. What one might want to accomplish with it might not be, but that's an entirely different thing. The thing is, that if it's a constraint, it'll be in the command tab, if it's an effect, it'll be in the setup tab, if it's a rendering thing, it will be in the render tab etc... At no point does it deviate from that. And it is most certainly not the way you described it.
It is effective at what it does, because it's specialized at it. That's a good thing.
Regarding your last question, I don't know, I think you have to ask pmg directly.

UnCommonGrafx
04-15-2009, 02:12 PM
All of what you say is the case; I can not argue it as you've stated.
What I am speaking to is exactly what you've spoken of. As a new user to the app, becoming comfortable with all of it took a bit.
Yes, now I am schizoidly comfortable with it. But when I first got it, I found it overwhelming.

I have tried to fix the bug but still have it. I have a nice vid card where I found the proposed fixed. On my main box, no go; on my lappy, no go -lo grade card; on my VT box, no go - pci 512mb...ought to be good; and my jobs dell box... hmm, I'll check tomorrow.

I do like Messiah. My observation, as well as the other shared here on the topic, are what the newbie gets: lots and lots of panels. Exercising the brain helps cut grooves that hold the info for you but it takes a bit of getting used to. Once setup...THAT'S where Messiah really shines!
It rocks.

adamredwoods
04-15-2009, 02:39 PM
The interface is as simple as I have painted it. What one might want to accomplish with it might not be, but that's an entirely different thing. The thing is, that if it's a constraint, it'll be in the command tab, if it's an effect, it'll be in the setup tab, if it's a rendering thing, it will be in the render tab etc... At no point does it deviate from that. And it is most certainly not the way you described it.

Having the interface sectioned off using tabs is a great UI thing.

What I've noticed and commenting on, is the increase of little icons WITHIN those tabs.... don't take this as a serious critique-- I'm being lighthearted-- but it looks like it is starting to get 3dsmax/maya clustered with all those icons and buttons surrounding the viewport.

http://www.usefulslug.com/messiah4/Productivity_tools.mov

3D-glasses as an icon?

adamredwoods
04-15-2009, 02:44 PM
Character animation is not to be snuffed at, and is, a very difficult thing to master. With all the renderers out there I wouldn't take shame focusing on that for one split second.


The reason I said, "The app is being built in reverse" stems somewhat from what Jay Roth said in another thread today:

http://newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=871377&postcount=10

Actually, no; as I have stated numerous times, modeling tools are the tools that access the smallest atom of data. They provide the essential foundations for everything else in the system, especially if the desire is to animate modeling elements and operations. That is why modeling tools were the logical place to start.

I'm not degrading Messiah, I think it's a way cool piece of software. I'd love to try it out someday.

IMI
04-15-2009, 03:16 PM
Could someone please give me the Messiah for Dummies brief rundown on what it does?
Basically it has its own rigging system, but you export that to LW (or other programs) and render it there?

Reading their site it seems one must already know about Messiah. I couldn't find a n00b page.
And at $399 ($599 if you want to use more than two cores and 64 bit), it might be a better option for me than waiting for Core to get around to CA, or buying Softimage.

I don't understand how it can use its own bones in LW though, unless it's actually a replacement CA system, but I'm really not understanding how the whole idea works.

Thanks. :)

Wegg
04-15-2009, 03:31 PM
For a lightwave user. . . you model your character in modeler and bring it into layout. Two different apps. Its the same idea with messiah. You apply the messiah plugin to the model in Layout and that pops you into messiah:studio where you rig and animate your character. As you alt/tab back to lightwave, any change you make to the animation in messiah changes the mesh in lightwave. So then you render away in the familiar lightwave interface you know and love when your done with your animation.

Messiah uses its own far superior bone, rigging and animation and as I said above can be used as a plugin to lightwave or alternatively take advantage of Lightwave's own native mdd support.

I'm encoding a "quick tour" video now that runs you through the interface and what it does. When its up you will be able to find it here. (http://setuptab.com/index.php?action=store;sa=view;id=10)

Setuptab (http://www.setuptab.com) is probably your best place to get all your questions answered quickly and clicking the chat button will get them answered even quicker. :D

calilifestyle
04-15-2009, 03:31 PM
nvm wegg got it

IMI
04-15-2009, 03:35 PM
Thank you, Wegg. :)
Kinda like the relationship between Modeler and Layout through Hub, it sounds like.

Calilifestyle, are you saying you think v4 has dropped its support for LW? It doesn't look that way according to the products page.

Wegg
04-15-2009, 03:48 PM
Well its much much more than that. You could just use it for that if you'd like and be very happy. Thats how a LOT of people use Messiah. But you could also think of it as a Layout replacement as well. It takes advantage of Lightwave's endomorphs. . . renders (hate to say this in here) faster than lightwave in most cases and has an amazing/fun community around it.

IMI
04-15-2009, 03:51 PM
Thanks again - I think I'll have to take a serious hard look at it. :)

calilifestyle
04-15-2009, 04:20 PM
wegg. the pmg website says that both version of M4 come with Auto Rigger 2. But over on Cgtalk ulven says no . so what up.

Ulven
04-15-2009, 04:28 PM
wegg. the pmg website says that both version of M4 come with Auto Rigger 2. But over on Cgtalk ulven says no . so what up.

Just to clarify that. Autorigger IS included. Walker is not. Walker is a plugin that makes characters walk around using reusable animations and footsteps. Autorigger is an... autorigger.... I should have named them more clearly :D

calilifestyle
04-15-2009, 04:31 PM
LoL there you go. now i understand. thanks man

dmack
04-16-2009, 02:36 AM
Re the interface, remember folks that for recording reasons, the screen is shrunk down to a size that no one, unless they're still in the 80's, would have. Put that interface on a 30" and it'll probably look a little sparse! :)

Wegg
04-16-2009, 02:39 AM
I actually did all mine at 1280 X 720. I . . . don't like watching videos where the artist looks uncomfortable due to being forced to use crazy low resolutions.

dmack
04-16-2009, 05:42 AM
I meant the modo/messiah video. It does look a little crazy with all the buttons bumped up to eachother.

Ulven's work though...wow, that guy is talented!

Wegg
04-16-2009, 09:59 AM
I need to do a Lightwave one just like that . .

Julez4001
04-16-2009, 01:58 PM
Messiah has Lattices.......lattices!

UnCommonGrafx
04-16-2009, 06:48 PM
Welp,
Just ordered 4.0. At $50.00, couldn't resist. hehe

Ulven, I tell ya: I spaced that I sent you money for your fabulous product(s). Thanks for those and nice to see your tools being integrated into the core, as it were.

Well worth it.

AbnRanger
04-17-2009, 05:21 AM
"RENDERING
Breakthrough Hair module, beautiful glass rendering with dispersion, fast volumetric designable clouds, advanced Global Illumination options and more!."

You guys really need to show off that volumetric cloud feature...I'd like to see that as much as anything.

Nicolas Jordan
04-17-2009, 07:17 AM
"RENDERING
Breakthrough Hair module, beautiful glass rendering with dispersion, fast volumetric designable clouds, advanced Global Illumination options and more!."

You guys really need to show off that volumetric cloud feature...I'd like to see that as much as anything.

I think I saw a tutorial video on the clouds while ago. I will see if I can find the link.

down_in_black
04-17-2009, 08:17 AM
Here is a link to a video with a quick demo of particle clouds:

http://www.eggington.net/~blog/?p=27

Nicolas Jordan
04-17-2009, 08:36 AM
Here is a link to a video with a quick demo of particle clouds:

http://www.eggington.net/~blog/?p=27

Yep, that's the one I was thinking of.

adamredwoods
04-17-2009, 11:14 AM
How does Messiah's renderer compare to Lightwave's?

Wegg
04-17-2009, 03:41 PM
Loaded question right there. Everyone will tell you something different but I personally . . . test after test. . . have. . .

Gah.

I can't say it in here that would just be rude.

Ask that question in another forum. :-)

adamredwoods
04-17-2009, 04:32 PM
Loaded question right there.

good point. How about this, feature-to-feature, is it on par with Lightwave's renderer? Does it have features LW doesn't? Does LW have features M:S doesnt?

Wegg
04-17-2009, 05:50 PM
Yes. But that could be said of just about any renderer. . .

Nicolas Jordan
04-18-2009, 10:42 AM
In my own personal experience messiah has a great renderer with really good speed and quality which has probably only improved with version 3 and 4 since I am still using version 2.5. I think Lightwaves renderer would be more versatile in some ways with more options. Both seem to be pretty good though. :thumbsup:

Ulven
04-18-2009, 01:15 PM
Two new feature videos. I'll post them here as I think fori's still too busy sending out licence keys to update the website :)
http://www.eggington.net/~wegg/4Messiah/HairDynamics.html
http://www.usefulslug.com/messiah4/RealtimeSoftbodyDynamics.mov

Phil
04-18-2009, 03:32 PM
Would have been nice to see it go cross-platform...

Nicolas Jordan
04-18-2009, 03:39 PM
Thanks for the vids on the new features. That stuff looks pretty cool! :)

Ulven
04-19-2009, 05:01 AM
regarding cross platform: we've successfully tested messiah 4 with WINE on linux, and some people are apparently running it on VMware:
http://setuptab.com/index.php/topic,232.msg2298.html#msg2298

Regarding the cluttered interface some of that is because the videos are done at 900 x 600 in order to keep the menus nice and crisp without making the files larger. If anyone is still worried about that, have a look at this: http://www.eggington.net/~wegg/4Messiah/Clutter.mp4

sbrandt
04-19-2009, 08:37 PM
Is there a screenshot of the UI ?

RenderBlur
04-20-2009, 07:02 AM
Messiah has now posted a Lightwave users intro special for Messiah Pro only, the same as their Modo and Autodesk special.

I was hoping to see the same deal on basic but no dice. Still nice to see something for Lightwave users there.

-Jim

GregMalick
04-20-2009, 11:44 AM
Ulven,

Is there a single Pro version that works for both LightWave & Modo?
It looks like it - since mdd's are the animation method for Modo.
And does Messiah still integrate directly with LW9.6?

Also, if you have any pull with pmG, tell them that the SETUPTAB forum page looks lousy. Half of the screen is taken up by the banner, and I can only read a post or two at a time.

thanks...



BTW, Walker looks great!
Is there a way to setup poses as if they are presets and easily apply them to a character? If not, you should think about writing one...:thumbsup:

Nicolas Jordan
04-20-2009, 11:52 AM
Also, if you have any pull with pmG, tell them that the SETUPTAB forum page looks lousy. Half of the screen is taken up by the banner, and I can only read a post or two at a time.


If you go to Setup Tab from outside the pMG site you won`t have to deal with that banner stuff. I always go straight to http://setuptab.com/

adamredwoods
04-20-2009, 11:55 AM
Yes PMG's website is archaic. They really need to get rid of the frame.

adamredwoods
04-20-2009, 03:06 PM
Does Messiah handle render passes? What about rendering separate object layers?

Ulven
04-21-2009, 01:28 PM
Ulven,

Is there a single Pro version that works for both LightWave & Modo?
It looks like it - since mdd's are the animation method for Modo.
And does Messiah still integrate directly with LW9.6?

Also, if you have any pull with pmG, tell them that the SETUPTAB forum page looks lousy. Half of the screen is taken up by the banner, and I can only read a post or two at a time.

thanks...

BTW, Walker looks great!
Is there a way to setup poses as if they are presets and easily apply them to a character? If not, you should think about writing one...:thumbsup:

The pro version works for both modo and lightwave, they offers are only seperate in the shopping trolley names, that's it. messiah still plugs in to lightwave 9.6 just as it has in the past and probably will once core is ready enough to support it.

You want to go to setuptab.com seperately generally, it's the main community page now with tutorials etc as well.
The website for pmg itself is being worked on.

For the third question, you can save poses with 'Compose' and load them into other scenes and apply them there. That requires that you manually match them or that the names are similar enough that it can be found with the automatic name recognition part in compose.


adamredwoods: Regarding the render passes, yes messiah can automatically export various render passes by checking them and setting an output in the render tab. Single character passes are easy to do, you simply group all the objects and surfaces that you want to render in each pass to a render group, and turn off your other groups (either unseen if it's something you still want reflection etc for, or off entirely if you just don't want it there at all.) each thing has a green circle that turns red when off for doing that.

The Dommo
04-21-2009, 02:39 PM
Fantastiche!! :D

Ulven
04-26-2009, 05:44 AM
Some more up to date docs! This is a dynamic process guys. I'll continue to update them as and when I can. The new dynamics are still so fresh from the oven that I haven't had time to experiment with them properly yet! Once I do I will chuck up some new tutorials about those. At least there's a propper what's new list and new tutorials on those things. The other elements are taken from the v2.5 documentation who's principles still apply.

http://www.eggswhyzed.com/messiah_docs/index.html

GregMalick
04-28-2009, 02:31 PM
...
For the third question, you can save poses with 'Compose' and load them into other scenes and apply them there. That requires that you manually match them or that the names are similar enough that it can be found with the automatic name recognition part in compose.


I was looking at messiah docs (http://www.eggswhyzed.com/messiah_docs/index.html) regarding using Compose to make & use clips. Excuse the basic questions about clips.

It looks like you can create blocks of animation (called clips) and layer and blend them like you can in Motion Builder.

Is this true?
Can you blend from a walk cycle clip to a run cycle clip in Messiah?
Can animation clips be saved and re-used in other scenes with the same character? I'm thinking of making a library of clips.
Can walk cycles from Walker be saved as clips and later re-used as a static walk cycle clip?

If clips can't be saved/loaded, does the SDK expose enough information so that an experienced programmer could write a plugin with that functionality?

Thanks for your patience.

GregMalick
04-29-2009, 01:51 AM
The following gifs are what makes me think Messiah can easy blend a walk into a run. Is that true?

I've watched the videos on the pose system.
But I can't find any videos on animation clips and blending.

Could you do a short video on that, Ulven?

Ulven
04-30-2009, 06:32 PM
Hey, totally missed the questions. I've been so busy here. Yes you can build a library of different clips for your character and then save out those clips for use in other scenes if you want. You can match them to the same character easily or with a bit of fiddeling (multiplying position values with the tools given) you can match them to other characters that have a similar enough rig. Walker can read clips created with autorig (with default names) and cycle any such clip for you with the footsteps properly planted. That means you can go from a sneak to a walk to a run easily just by fading the different clips you've created.

If you want to use compose to fade between clips you simply lay out the clip instances in your tracks the way you want them and then right click and drag from one clip to another to create a blend over the time period they overlap.

GregMalick
04-30-2009, 08:09 PM
Hey, totally missed the questions. I've been so busy here. Yes you can build a library of different clips for your character and then save out those clips for use in other scenes if you want. You can match them to the same character easily or with a bit of fiddeling (multiplying position values with the tools given) you can match them to other characters that have a similar enough rig. Walker can read clips created with autorig (with default names) and cycle any such clip for you with the footsteps properly planted. That means you can go from a sneak to a walk to a run easily just by fading the different clips you've created.

If you want to use compose to fade between clips you simply lay out the clip instances in your tracks the way you want them and then right click and drag from one clip to another to create a blend over the time period they overlap.

Sorry if this is so Messiah basic. But do the clips include Morph animation info? And does Walker respect that info.

I understand that Walker is fundamentally for walk/run cycles.
But Compose can be used for any type of animation clips, right?
By that I mean that clips actually contain even non-bone animation - which I hope includes the new point animation in M4.

Hopefully I run into you on the chat forum of setuptab.com to ask further questions. Boy do I wish Messiah had a save disabled Demo version.

Mr Rid
04-30-2009, 11:57 PM
...You apply the messiah plugin to the model in Layout and that pops you into messiah:studio where you rig and animate your character.

Never used Messiah but really like how the demos make it look. But the way it borrows LW seems like it has to have some gotchas, like when rendering over a network or interacting with LW dynamics(?).

GregMalick
05-01-2009, 02:15 AM
Also, can the parameter for mixing clips be driven by the channel of another object?

Ulven
05-01-2009, 03:17 AM
Walker only reads a fixed few items into the walk files (this is to keep the walks more general so they can be transported onto any character).
Compose can work with anything that can animate. You simply add all the items that you want to create a clip for to a group, and then all those channels are picked up by the clip. I think you can tie the mixing of a clip to a slider/control object, and you can also key it directly. But I think in general that it's better to work with the tools that are inside the compose tab for blending/mixing.

Mr Rid: If/when you need to do network rendering or lw dynamics on the scene, if that is indeed a problem (haven't tried), you can bake out mdd's from messiah for your characters and deform them using that.

Nicolas Jordan
05-01-2009, 08:44 AM
Never used Messiah but really like how the demos make it look. But the way it borrows LW seems like it has to have some gotchas, like when rendering over a network or interacting with LW dynamics(?).

Ya, I think the guys that wrote messiah were originally on the Lightwave dev team many years ago.(someone correct me if I'm wrong)I'm not even sure how many of the original messiah dev team are still working on messiah though. I think messiah is a very unique program and is very different from Lightwave in many ways and similar in some ways since it's roots were influenced by Lightwave to some extent.

Ulven
05-09-2009, 05:44 PM
Some more stuff on the way soon:
http://www.usefulslug.com/messiah4/MoCap_Autorig.mov

GregMalick
05-09-2009, 06:01 PM
Some more stuff on the way soon:
http://www.usefulslug.com/messiah4/MoCap_Autorig.mov

Thanks. Very interesting.