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bugzilla
04-15-2009, 08:38 AM
I noticed a full discussion on Newtek Core in the latest issue of 3D World. They also had a pole asking if it would be enough to get people to switch back to Lightwave and the vast majority said no. The main reason is the poor animation tools in Lightwave. Basically, the consensus was that the renderer and Modeler are fine, but the animation tools are crap. I have to agree 1000000%. I hope that the guys at Newtek read this article and take notice.

Kuzey
04-15-2009, 08:45 AM
Haha...this sounds just like the poll at cgtalk and all this without even Core being final. One would think to wait until more is known of the Core and what is or not in it....but people are funny that way :hey:

Kuzey

AdamAvenali
04-15-2009, 09:17 AM
i think i remember the poll at cgtalk being related to the 3dworld poll. something like a cgtalk/3dw poll or something, but that was a while ago so i have no idea haha

biliousfrog
04-15-2009, 09:21 AM
I'm still bewildered by the decision to concentrate on modeling tools, one of Lightwave's strongest features.

bobakabob
04-15-2009, 09:55 AM
I'm still bewildered by the decision to concentrate on modeling tools, one of Lightwave's strongest features.

That probably has a lot to do with integrating Modeler and Layout

Unification
Since the very beginning, LightWave has always been a two-headed application; one application for modeling, and a separate application for animation, shading, lighting and rendering. This is no longer the case, as LightWave CORE™ offers a unified environment. CORE™ does not distinguish between modeling, rendering, lighting and so on. Instead, LightWave CORE™ allows anything to be animated in any number of ways; keyframed animation, of course; procedural animation via scripts, expressions and so on; dynamically, in the form of a unified simulation environment. In short, anything can be driven by anything else: a water simulation could drive cloth or hair, for example, or anything else for that matter. Everything has access to everything else.

The capabilities of the LightWave CORE™ can be presented to users in a variety of different methods: in a survey of the user-base, it was clear that the split for a separate modeler vs. integrated modeler was 50/50. In the end, there was really no need to force a choice, as the environment will present these functions as desired by the user. Want to use LightWave CORE™ as just a modeler? Fine. Want to integrate modeling functions with animation? That’s fine, too. Users can decide how they would like there experience by a simple user preference setting – a dynamic setting that can be changed at any time.

SplineGod
04-15-2009, 10:39 AM
Probably because creating modeling tools is much easier then an animation system

JeffrySG
04-15-2009, 10:50 AM
I think also it's due to the fact that until you have a new system of creating objects it's hard to create a new system of animating them. How do you animate new parameters if they have not been created yet. If NT was going to simply update LW they could do it that way but they are obviously planning something very different. Time will tell if it all works out in the end. Fingers are crossed.

Pavlov
04-15-2009, 10:52 AM
Rebuilding a software is a forced-path task. Structure first, then tools, from basic to complex. Modeling tools are the most basic tool in a 3d software, so it's the most logic thing to develop immediately after structure.

Paolo

Philbert
04-15-2009, 11:06 AM
I saw that too, I'm pretty sure it was the same pole that was on CGTalk considering that the 3D World issue came out in the UK like a month ago, closer to when that pole was started. That issue also has a half page article on 3D Coat 3.0. :)

jayroth
04-15-2009, 11:16 AM
Probably because creating modeling tools is much easier then an animation system

Actually, no; as I have stated numerous times, modeling tools are the tools that access the smallest atom of data. They provide the essential foundations for everything else in the system, especially if the desire is to animate modeling elements and operations. That is why modeling tools were the logical place to start.

Nicolas Jordan
04-15-2009, 11:23 AM
Actually, no; as I have stated numerous times, modeling tools are the tools that access the smallest atom of data. They provide the essential foundations for everything else in the system, especially if the desire is to animate modeling elements and operations. That is why modeling tools were the logical place to start.

That does make sense. I would also assume that much of the work done to the rigging area of 9.6 will translate over to Core with additional enhancements eventually. :)

Kuzey
04-15-2009, 02:55 PM
Ahhhh...so it is the same one.

I wonder if they mentioned the bad reaction that the poll got and how they could justify such a poll in the first place...when nothing is known. Sure makes them look unprofessional...to say the least :hey:

Kuzey

thomascheng
04-15-2009, 05:36 PM
The problem is the 3D World is a popular magazine and very few non lightwave users question the validity of their poll. Best thing to do is to get a PR person to stay in good relation with the people there and to stay on tabs with negative press type articles. When they see something like this happen, they need to call their editor and tell them it not fair nor does the 3D community any justice to taint Core before it is even finished. Its a dumb poll, but not completely useless as animation is important to people.

Philbert
04-15-2009, 11:22 PM
Here's the original poll. I think there was actually a thread about it on the NT forum when it first came out:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=734271

Nemoid
04-16-2009, 03:39 AM
Jay is right.

Modelling tools are the right place to start.
The important thing is that once animation is implemented, the rigging and CA toolset makes a good mix with other tools.

Implementing animation from the ground up while the app grows, to end up with complex functions for CA is a good choice.

i think Newtek perfectly knows that, since years, Lightwave is behind. especially into the animation compartment but this, as Jay said right in his recent interview is also due to how lightwave grew up in time : without a clear design.

Now, is the time in which Newtek has the possibility to actually build up a general 3D application taking into account all the new technologies and approaches, all the new workflows and tools that chimed in in these years.

And, since there's great room for improvement for 3d packages, if they do a good work they also could eventually go beyond.

cresshead
04-16-2009, 04:46 AM
if you want to animate EVERYTHING then points polys and the 'act' of modeling is the starting place to work up from...makes 100% sense to me.

sampei
04-16-2009, 04:49 AM
Jay is right.

Modelling tools are the right place to start.
The important thing is that once animation is implemented, the rigging and CA toolset makes a good mix with other tools.

Implementing animation from the ground up while the app grows, to end up with complex functions for CA is a good choice.

i think Newtek perfectly knows that, since years, Lightwave is behind. especially into the animation compartment but this, as Jay said right in his recent interview is also due to how lightwave grew up in time : without a clear design.

Now, is the time in which Newtek has the possibility to actually build up a general 3D application taking into account all the new technologies and approaches, all the new workflows and tools that chimed in in these years.

And, since there's great room for improvement for 3d packages, if they do a good work they also could eventually go beyond.

beyond ?

Kuzey
04-16-2009, 06:09 AM
The problem is the 3D World is a popular magazine and very few non lightwave users question the validity of their poll. Best thing to do is to get a PR person to stay in good relation with the people there and to stay on tabs with negative press type articles. When they see something like this happen, they need to call their editor and tell them it not fair nor does the 3D community any justice to taint Core before it is even finished. Its a dumb poll, but not completely useless as animation is important to people.

Actually, it should be up to the magazine to be seen to be independent and fair. They should have got a clue to how dumb the idea was from the reaction on the cgtalk forums, yet they chose to print it just the same..that speaks volumes.

Topics for new polls at 3D World:

Is 3D World irrelevant with irrelevant polls?

Do you think 3D World gets kickbacks or not?

Does 3D World listen to their customers or to the advertising dollar?

Will next Wednesday be a great day or not?

Should Pixar stop making films to give the other guys a chance?

Should 3D World be independent or stay the same?

Kuzey

SBowie
04-16-2009, 06:24 AM
Does 3D World listen to their customers or to the advertising dollar?With regard to "for profit" magazines, the answer to that question is a given in at least 99.99% of cases. Want a favorable mention from a mag? Buy a two page full colour ad. Want an award? Buy a series of ads ... end of story

Providing accurate and fair information to a thirsty public is not their first priority. They exist to make money (fail at that and everyone is out of a job). And money comes primarily from ads. Circulation plays a part mainly in that it justifies a higher price for the ads, that's all. And no-one ever lost circulation by pandering to the lowest common denominator of public perceptions.

I'm not saying this cynically. It's just a reality, no sense worrying about it.

Kuzey
04-16-2009, 06:33 AM
The poll ideas were supposed to be as silly as the original poll :D

Just me being silly and what not, but I do think they should go with the Pixar one...that could be a really great poll.

Kuzey

sampei
04-16-2009, 06:35 AM
The poll ideas were supposed to be as silly as the original poll :D

Just me being silly and what not, but I do think they should go with the Pixar one...that could be a really great poll.

Kuzey

I think the wednsday one is also very intriguing :jester:

SBowie
04-16-2009, 06:39 AM
Just me being silly and what not ...KuzeyOh sure, sorry- didn't mean to single you out ... just that this sort of thing is never-ending, no sense wasting much time in trying to change it. Magazines, by and large, are not really impartial news media. for that matter, this is equally true of much larger mainstream 'news' organizations these days. Wherever you look you run into one giant advertising mechanism.

There was an article on the news last night about vendors tying donations to our schools to on-site branding. How far off can it be before the morning announcements in elementary school contain blurbs like "This mornings milk and cookies brought to you by our good friends at Wally Mart! Let's sing their song together to start the days activities - and a one, and a two ...."

dmack
04-16-2009, 06:44 AM
Whilst I absolutely agree that modelling is the best place to start, there is no doubt that Core is on a timetable now. Lightwave isn't being developed as a priority any more and so its userbase needs Core to be a replacement within a fairly short timeframe (say 1yr to 18 months). Longer than that and I think there might be unhelpful attrition. With this in mind, I think that as soon as the modelling basics are covered, then Newtek will need to spread its development time across all aspects of the application so that it can become genuinely useable on projects.

sammael
04-16-2009, 06:56 AM
I have faith that all the LW biased people will be choking on their own words in a couple of years and LW artists will become a rare commodity :D
At least until everyone comes flooding back pretending they always thought LW was great...

Heres hoping :beerchug:

*Pete*
04-16-2009, 09:00 AM
With this in mind, I think that as soon as the modelling basics are covered, then Newtek will need to spread its development time across all aspects of the application so that it can become genuinely useable on projects.

during the 9.X betas some thought that NT focused too much on one thing at the expense of other things.

Jay responded stating that it is not the case, as the coders at NT are often specialised, meaning that a render specialists will not be a modeller specialist, an animation specialist will not be a texturing specialist.

so even if it seems as if they are working only on one aspect of the application, it is not so..those render specialists, animation specialists and what not will still be working on their own specialised fields.

if modelling is the focus now, it means that modeling is the priority, meaning that what ever stuff the render specialists will cook up it wont be implemented until modeling features have gotten to a certain state.

i think that even if modeler would take twice the time to finish, it would have very little effect on what kind of renderer we will have at the end of the year.


i believe that once modeler hits its designated mark, we will start getting new features at a very rapid space.

taproot2
04-16-2009, 09:09 AM
Actually, it should be up to the magazine to be seen to be independent and fair. They should have got a clue to how dumb the idea was from the reaction on the cgtalk forums, yet they chose to print it just the same..that speaks volumes.

Topics for new polls at 3D World:

Is 3D World irrelevant with irrelevant polls?

Do you think 3D World gets kickbacks or not?

Does 3D World listen to their customers or to the advertising dollar?

Will next Wednesday be a great day or not?

Should Pixar stop making films to give the other guys a chance?

Should 3D World be independent or stay the same?

Kuzey

Well put, I actually LOL'ed onthis one

Nemoid
04-16-2009, 10:42 AM
Agree totally.

We must consider that Q1 release is a starting point, and also that as the modelling toolset grows, very probably other compartments will chime in, too. Even because there can be a direct connection between modelling and animation.

So, it is logic to think that, when modelling will get a certain point, animation could get into the game.

Think to point animation and also to lattices to get better deformations on characters, or objects, as well as curves that can be used for lofting (modelling) or paths(animation) or even both(eh eh) other compartments , like rendering can be ported within CORE, i hope into a not too long timeframe.

I agree also on the fact timing is important and that CORE should be developed as rapidly as possible, but its not like users cannot work with 9.6.

the transition period will be a delicate one to deal with for sure. Realistically speaking there will probably be a delay for Q4 release, but, if the foundation will be well built, things could get better and better into a faster timeframe.

Fortunately, some of the programming job made for 9.6 was made taking into account CoRE, so that i guess that a good part of it could be put wihin the new environment without a too huge effort.

@sampei beyond, yes.At least after some time of developing, they should adopt and think about better workflows and tools, to make DCC even better than what you can usually find within other apps. There are some efficient standards to adopt, but the best value of a good program should be new ideas, new concepts.




during the 9.X betas some thought that NT focused too much on one thing at the expense of other things.

Jay responded stating that it is not the case, as the coders at NT are often specialised, meaning that a render specialists will not be a modeller specialist, an animation specialist will not be a texturing specialist.

so even if it seems as if they are working only on one aspect of the application, it is not so..those render specialists, animation specialists and what not will still be working on their own specialised fields.

if modelling is the focus now, it means that modeling is the priority, meaning that what ever stuff the render specialists will cook up it wont be implemented until modeling features have gotten to a certain state.

i think that even if modeler would take twice the time to finish, it would have very little effect on what kind of renderer we will have at the end of the year.


i believe that once modeler hits its designated mark, we will start getting new features at a very rapid space.

sampei
04-16-2009, 01:08 PM
@sampei beyond, yes.At least after some time of developing, they should adopt and think about better workflows and tools, to make DCC even better than what you can usually find within other apps. There are some efficient standards to adopt, but the best value of a good program should be new ideas, new concepts.
grazie della spiegazione, spero che CORE mantenga le aspettative.
e complimenti per il sito :D

bugzilla
04-16-2009, 02:17 PM
The poll ideas were supposed to be as silly as the original poll :D

Just me being silly and what not, but I do think they should go with the Pixar one...that could be a really great poll.

Kuzey

The main reason why I started this thread was that the pole is of people who run studios and the majority of them say they will not likely switch back to LIghtwave. This is important to the Lightwave userbase since industry support means more plugins and R&D dollars will be put into LW. Also, the reasons for users not switching back hilight LWs shortcomings that need to be addressed in Core if LW/Core is going to survive or become a niche product like Truespace or Hash.

I use LW because it is built to do an entire production. Not like Maya where you need a MEL programmer to rewrite the whole UI for every project. Still, LW has some very serious shortcomings. Getting rid of them will give use Lightwavers the best of all worlds.

Kuzey
04-16-2009, 03:20 PM
The main reason why I started this thread was that the pole is of people who run studios and the majority of them say they will not likely switch back to LIghtwave. This is important to the Lightwave userbase since industry support means more plugins and R&D dollars will be put into LW. Also, the reasons for users not switching back hilight LWs shortcomings that need to be addressed in Core if LW/Core is going to survive or become a niche product like Truespace or Hash.

I use LW because it is built to do an entire production. Not like Maya where you need a MEL programmer to rewrite the whole UI for every project. Still, LW has some very serious shortcomings. Getting rid of them will give use Lightwavers the best of all worlds.


I don't have a problem with the idea of a poll, but how can you conduct one when you only know vague things about it and that it wasn't even out back then. They took a few confirmed features/improvements, not new to most other users and they said that is all the Core will be.

It would have been smarter to wait after the 4Q to run that poll, when people can try the thing. At this point, one of my other poll topics would have been a more fitting poll for such a magazine. Since, they can all read the future and what not, otherwise it's no better than gossip :hey:

A poll to see what people would like to see or need in the Core...now, that would have been great and fitting for this period in it's short life.

Kuzey

Darth Mole
04-16-2009, 03:39 PM
With regard to "for profit" magazines, the answer to that question is a given in at least 99.99% of cases. Want a favorable mention from a mag? Buy a two page full colour ad. Want an award? Buy a series of ads ... end of story.

I work at the publishing company that makes 3D World. I know the the editor and the team on it, and I occasionally write reviews. And I'm happy to report that your statement is 100% bullsh*t. End of story.

Kuzey
04-16-2009, 03:56 PM
Hey Darth Mole,

Have you talked to them about the poll and why the rush to get it out there when the Core wasn't even in use. Why they didn't address the issues people had about the poll at the original cgtalk thread...I presume they didn't because I haven't read the magazine.

It would be interesting to know :D

Kuzey

SBowie
04-16-2009, 04:06 PM
I work at the publishing company that makes 3D World. I know the the editor and the team on it, and I occasionally write reviews. And I'm happy to report that your statement is 100% bullsh*t. End of story.It would be the very rare exception then (and I have written for a half dozen mags myself over the years, so I'm not singling anyone out).

However, my point was not really to bash any particular publication, nor did I mention any names. That Core gets any space at all so early on says something positive about 3DW. I'm just stating a generality. Periodicals that do not bend whatsoever to influence by advertisers are about as plentiful as the Whooping Crane, and in general things are more like I have stated than less.

I have seen countless threads over decades that urge letters to editors, emails to admonish authors and such like. I've never seen these accomplish much, except counter-charges of fanboy desperation. The best way to deal with negative press is to simply prove it wrong.

IMI
04-16-2009, 05:10 PM
I remember that well. It was the thread that got me banned from CGTalk. After I talked back to Leigh arguing that there was essentially a double-standard... she banned me. That was over a month ago. I sent Roberto Ortiz emails but he's never answered as to when I might be "unbanned." I thought it was a VERY stupid poll and yet they insisted on defending it.

Oh well.... :hey:


You got banned from CG Talk? Did you have a CG Society paid membership?

SplineGod
04-16-2009, 05:26 PM
I remember that well. It was the thread that got me banned from CGTalk. After I talked back to Leigh arguing that there was essentially a double-standard... she banned me. That was over a month ago. I sent Roberto Ortiz emails but he's never answered as to when I might be "unbanned." I thought it was a VERY stupid poll and yet they insisted on defending it.

Oh well.... :hey:

Unfortunately anyone who defends LW even in the LW forum eventually get harassed by the mods there and banning is just around the corner. Its not based on violating any rules other then it simply pisses Leigh off.
That forums always been on verge of being shut down. I
dont know why Roberto bothers to support it.

geothefaust
04-16-2009, 05:32 PM
Unfortunately anyone who defends LW even in the LW forum eventually get harassed by the mods there and banning is just around the corner. Its not based on violating any rules other then it simply pisses Leigh off.
That forums always been on verge of being shut down. I
dont know why Roberto bothers to support it.

Yeah CG Talk is horrendous, I pretty much don't go there anymore. If you use LW and go to that forum, the eventuality of being harassed, and possibly banned, is a given.

IMI
04-16-2009, 05:33 PM
I went and checked to see what Megalodon said there to Leigh. Unless there was another post which got deleted at the same time he got deleted, I don't see any problem at all with what he wrote.
I've been in some real good arguments with Megalodon, and what he wrote there is pretty tame, especially pretty tame for *him*. ;)

So that's what happens, eh? Defend LW, and you're automatically an outcast. Have the audacity to argue even slightly with Leigh once you've been branded, and that's it for you, huh?

I've seen several other threads in other forums there where people argued with her and didn't end up banned.

jburford
04-16-2009, 05:43 PM
Lightwave isn't being developed as a priority any more and so its userbase needs Core to be a replacement within a fairly short timeframe (say 1yr to 18 months).

Why? My Lightwave 9.6 is working fine, I have no major issues with it whatsoever, it works today, will kick butt tomorrow, the day after and for the next 5-20 yrs........

The software is more limited through my lack of abilities or usage of it than the other way around.

Side Note. heck, I still am editing with a Liquid Silver System which has not been updated the past 5 years and it still runs like a charm!

jburford
04-16-2009, 05:46 PM
Yeah CG Talk is horrendous, I pretty much don't go there anymore. If you use LW and go to that forum, the eventuality of being harassed, and possibly banned, is a given.


Then we should all be going over there more often and post, post, post about LW.... let em ban us! Group action. Tea Party

SplineGod
04-16-2009, 08:25 PM
I went and checked to see what Megalodon said there to Leigh. Unless there was another post which got deleted at the same time he got deleted, I don't see any problem at all with what he wrote.
I've been in some real good arguments with Megalodon, and what he wrote there is pretty tame, especially pretty tame for *him*. ;)

So that's what happens, eh? Defend LW, and you're automatically an outcast. Have the audacity to argue even slightly with Leigh once you've been branded, and that's it for you, huh?

I've seen several other threads in other forums there where people argued with her and didn't end up banned.

You nailed it exactly. You argue with Leigh and you also use LW its basically open season on you.

IMI
04-16-2009, 09:08 PM
I just think she didn't like me calling her on keeping that thread open with all of the "heat" as opposed to closing the thread Cress started about application pricing with the primary "heat" coming from the moderators. The mods there are clearly NOT level-headed and it seems like Leigh has got a little "holier-than-thou" thing going on and a little drunk with "mod power."



Well it sucks whatever the reasoning behind it was. It's too bad she didn't announce banning you in that thread, so other people could see how petty she is.
Then again, she probably knows it's petty and wouldn't say anything for that reason, but just can't help it. I don't know her, have never dealt with her, but I know her type all too well.
She's a success in the CG world, no doubt, a bigwig the entire industry knows and I guess that makes her a "somebody".
I don't care who you are though - no degree of fame or recognition gives anyone free license to be a jerk, especially when one is focusing one's anger over something else at convenient and helpless targets along the way. That kind of attitude doesn't command respect, it commands ridicule.

SplineGod
04-16-2009, 11:26 PM
no degree of fame or recognition gives anyone free license to be a jerk

Unfortunately that is her claim to fame...:agree:

Larry_g1s
04-17-2009, 12:17 AM
You nailed it exactly. You argue with Leigh and you also use LW its basically open season on you.We'll I've been argueing with here on the poll about outsourcing and how I think it's a negative impact. She's not much on the logical and reasoning side. I haven't been back to check in a bit. I'll have to go back and check things out.

Nemoid
04-17-2009, 12:27 AM
hahaha :D

there are alot of forums out there, and CGtalk is less and less a good one, especially regarding Lw. Roberto Ortiz always tries to have a positive influence on it, and i guess Shade 01 is a good guy for lw forum as well, Leonard, too, but i cannot say the same about other mods.
I also noticed that years ago, the forum was way more informative, and constructive, while now things got worse.

I also cannot stand the attitude within certain areas in which mods and some people tends to be snob, especially with newbies. this is a totally WRONG attitude.

I am co founder of a Lw italian forum, and know quite well what makes a good one. I even got past the experience of having that same attitude people like Leigh seems to have, for a small period, because of the fear some users could troll (and someone tried) but, even got through my errors and somewhat grew up.
The problem is keeping to have this very same attitude for ages, which, again, is plain wrong.

The CGtalk poll was silly, because you cannot judge a product since the start, and also, the offered options were too partial and silly. It was an early judgement over a poor presentation, but a presentation is not the product, and a product can be judged completely only when it hits the market, and after some time, too.

Here in Newtek forums, and other ones, many people spent a lot of words about CORE, positive or negative, there are huge discussions about Lw, its future, and CORE, some of them can also be useful for Newtek to understand better what people needs and this cannot be addressed with a simplistic poll.

Regarding adoption of CORE from little studios, and such, i think when CORE will hit the market we'll know better and see the reactions. As for now this is pure speculation.

colkai
04-17-2009, 02:23 AM
Unfortunately anyone who defends LW even in the LW forum eventually get harassed by the mods there and banning is just around the corner. Its not based on violating any rules other then it simply pisses Leigh off.
Heh, I've seen her set thread 'standards', including the text "because I say so". :D

It's a known quantity over there really, one reason I no longer frequent CGT.

JohnMarchant
04-17-2009, 03:01 AM
To be honest doing a review of Core to the moment is pointless. We have seen the first build just to give us a taste where its going and to give us some input into how it shapes up and looks. I honestly dont think it will be anywhere near LightWave 9.6 for at least 3 years, if then. We are in it for the long haul here and whilst we wait we will have to use 9.6 together with Core.

Im personally excited by the dirction NT is going and if their aspirations for LightWave are met i think we will have a superb product down the line. CGT and the like are very biased anyway, who cares, i certainly dont, those of us who us LightWave know what it can and cant do but this is the same as all 3d products there is no one perfect solution.