PDA

View Full Version : From Scratch: Rethinking Modeling for Lightwave CORE



robertoortiz
04-08-2009, 08:53 AM
Ok lets try something different.

In the past year since the last time I posted this same thread, the landscape of

the computer graphics world has changed drastically.

With LW core we have a once in a blue moon opportunity to start FROM SCRATCH with theanimation worflow for Lightwave.

(Since we all can universally agree that the modeling toolset of Lightwave need a lot of loving.)


Because of the stagnation of the modelign toolsets a lot LW developers were forced to move to third party solutions like Silo, Modo and for sculpture Zbrush and Mudbox.

So lets try something.

Tell us what you desire.

Tell us what you think is state in terms of modeling tools.

Open up Photoshop, and show us how the toolsets should behave.
So lets keep it light, and informative

Ill make sure the new core dev team sees this.

And please no Modo mockups.
We get it

-Roberto

shrox
04-08-2009, 09:10 AM
I am pretty happy with Lightwave's modeling tools as it is. In layout I would like everything to work together, hypervoxels behind transparency maps, lens flares that responded to lens zooms and focal lengths, not just distance. I would also like to see a realistic Biped type model. Some other stuff too that I can't remember right now. Oh yeah, more presets and preset saving options, like background gradients. Also I would like to see more realistic, human examples in content and tutorials rather than silly cartoony characters. Many of them just kind of bypass important human aspects because they are exaggerated caricatures. I'll bet the Artist Formerly Known As Oddity is with me on this last one.

And better ground fog, and values that make sense, rather that some arbitrary percentage of something or another. I can most always find a workaround, but if I didn't have to so often explore uncharted territory, that would be nice.

GandB
04-08-2009, 09:26 AM
Might not be critical to most here; but one thing they did when making the new TrueSpace was to have an "FPS Walk around" button. This enables you to drop down into any level you create (such as with LWCAD), and look in every nook and cranny without having to go through the process of loading it into a game-engine every time. There is rough collision detection included. Also, with TS's real-time abilities; a game dev can see his level in roughly the same environment as the game engine he uses. This would save oodles of time, IMO.

-Keith

3DGFXStudios
04-08-2009, 09:40 AM
Oh yeah, more presets and preset saving options, like background gradients.

You can save background gradient as presets. The texture environment tool has presets. You can save them by double clicking in viper.

I don't want hypervoxels in CORE. I want something that works is fast and realistic. Look at all the cool fluidplugins etc...

shrox
04-08-2009, 09:47 AM
You can save background gradient as presets. The texture environment tool has presets. You can save them by double clicking in viper.

I don't want hypervoxels in CORE. I want something that works is fast and realistic. Look at all the cool fluidplugins etc...

Volumetric spaces or equivalent that works in all scenarios.

Well, something new to me about LW, thanks for the background tip.

3DGFXStudios
04-08-2009, 09:50 AM
That's what's so cool about CORE. They can finally dump all the tools that got old, like hypervoxels, the dynamic engine, the fog stuff, and viper etc

Tranimatronic
04-08-2009, 11:10 AM
Off the top of my head......edge deletion, better edge selection (more intuitive), edge slide, UV unwrapping, UV camera projection, more predictable path extrude, extrude along polygon edges (with maybe twist and scale settings), the ability to treat splines as renderable objects (give them a radius and surface parameters), poly cut tool (like maya's poly split), maya's snapping, move along normal.

All of this IN ADDITION to everything LW already has.
Personally I am of the opinion that Modeller is one of the best modelling packages around. I use Maya professionally, I have Modo at home and I think modeller easily competes with both of these.

I hate the fact I have to sit and debug other peoples Maya models to get them into our pipeline. I love the way Lightwave's models are exactly that - a model - no dependence on history nodes or what namespace every node is a part of or sets or whatever.

Im not really interested in Lightwave trying to be zBrush - I have zBrush for that - personally I thought luxology's attempt at competing with zBrush was a complete waste of time. Id much prefer to see Lightwave going the way of Messiah & seeing the 'get 'er done' attitude applied to animation.

I know all of this will not be right for everybody -- but for me this is where I hope they are going with Core

adamredwoods
04-08-2009, 11:26 AM
I wonder if Core will still have modeling layers?

AdamAvenali
04-08-2009, 11:36 AM
I wonder if Core will still have modeling layers?

i'm guessing you mean like in zbrush? if so, yeah, that would be a nice touch.

i really dont have a problem with the modeling but that is probably because i have adjusted my workflow to accommodate for the tools available.

i would like to see something like the PLG UV Unwrapping tools, or some sort of pelt mapping incorporated. i really love just being able to select some edges and hit unwrap and have minimal tweaking left.

grn
04-08-2009, 12:14 PM
What quickly comes to mind:

- Sculpting & painting tools
- Interactive unwrapping tools that show and handle overlapping geometry
- Improved "UV Spider" (for texturing road alike objects quickly)
- A quick pipe tool
- poly/point/edge remove that doesn't destroy works
- Retopology tools
- Universally compatible normal map baking system (tweakable normal/tangent behavior) that can handle complex hard surface models
- Parallax map support in viewport
- "Smoothing groups" that can be exported properly aswell
- Realtime SSAO and shadows in viewport (SSAO can be good these days: http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2965415&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1)
- Greater numeric modeling capabilities
- Good coordinate rounding option for some tools (you know how the old LW bevel works - camera zoom affects amount of rounding)
- Edge Bevel like in Rhinoceros
- A bevel that merges "intersecting" geometry
- A janitor tool that cleans up models quickly (can select how to clean)
- A cutting tool that really works (could contain a merge-points-by-range function)
- Mechanically accurate fillet tool
- A deactivation/activation button that drops the tool and deselects. If the is button pressed without a tool, latest selection gets reactivated or deactivated.
- A walk mode (that also works while animations play)
- Is it possible to get rid of the "press spacebar like crazy" to go from polies to points ?
- Modern edge tools
- Dynamic curve patching (resolution controls - could set resolution automaticly by angles, size of features... ?)
- Realtime "rest on object"
- Remove duplicated geometry
- Angle rounding option for some tools (0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, 90...180... "mechanical drawing")

And, all tools UV friendly ! "Hands down !" - like Jay Roth says http://www.newtek.com/forums/images/smilies/brians/047.gif

GandB
04-08-2009, 12:34 PM
Another thing I'd like to see is a very good poly-reducing tool (non-destructive), such as Max has. Very useful for game devs.

As far as UV Mapping goes; I believe that Ultimate unwrap 3D is the best out there.

-Keith

AdamAvenali
04-08-2009, 12:48 PM
Another thing I'd like to see is a very good poly-reducing tool (non-destructive), such as Max has. Very useful for game devs.
As far as UV Mapping goes; I believe that Ultimate unwrap 3D is the best out there.

so all we need to do is throw Ultimate 3D and Polyboost into Core and we are set :)

Tranimatronic
04-08-2009, 01:29 PM
What quickly comes to mind:


- Interactive unwrapping tools that show and handle overlapping geometry
- Improved "UV Spider" (for texturing road alike objects quickly)
- A quick pipe tool
- Retopology tools
- Universally compatible normal map baking system (tweakable normal/tangent behavior) that can handle complex hard surface models
- Parallax map support in viewport
- "Smoothing groups" that can be exported properly aswell
- Realtime SSAO and shadows in viewport
- A bevel that merges "intersecting" geometry
- A janitor tool that cleans up models quickly (can select how to clean)
- A cutting tool that really works (could contain a merge-points-by-range function)
- A deactivation/activation button that drops the tool and deselects. If the is button pressed without a tool, latest selection gets reactivated or deactivated.
- A walk mode
- Modern edge tools
- Dynamic curve patching (resolution controls - could set resolution automaticly by angles, size of features... ?)
- Realtime "rest on object"
- Remove duplicated geometry
- Angle rounding option for some tools (0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, 90...180... "mechanical drawing")



a big YES to the above !!!
especially to the reTopo and edgeSmoothing groups
ooh ! and the edge bevel that cleans up intersecting polys !!
Great suggestions !

IMI
04-08-2009, 02:07 PM
i'm guessing you mean like in zbrush? if so, yeah, that would be a nice touch.


I'm guessing he meant like we already have in LightWave. ;)




i would like to see something like the PLG UV Unwrapping tools, or some sort of pelt mapping incorporated. i really love just being able to select some edges and hit unwrap and have minimal tweaking left.

I heard rumors around here that it was actually the PLG UV tools that were supposed to go into 9.5, but they couldn't pull it off for some reason.
Like I said, just read it in passing, there could be no truth to that at all.
What they really ought to do is work out a deal with Headus to bundle UVLayout with Core. ;)

Kuzey
04-08-2009, 02:29 PM
I'm guessing he meant like we already have in LightWave. ;)

Yes...some sort of the current layers is a must, I have become so used to working with different object parts in different layers. It doesn't matter how it looks like as long as it's there in some form....unless there is a better option they are working on :hey:

Kuzey

AdamAvenali
04-08-2009, 02:29 PM
What they really ought to do is work out a deal with Headus to bundle UVLayout with Core. ;)

I would be okay with that :thumbsup:

grn
04-08-2009, 10:22 PM
Here's a youtube playlist previewing some more recent realtime AO techniques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCwy31bss8Y&feature=PlayList&p=E228D8A6CB206CC6&index=0&playnext=1

These methods would add clearance to modeling/design/composing phases. Like said in Torque 3D's fresh video, SSAO adds sense of depth. These are not like real AO of course, but since the very first SSAO version seen in Crysis these have been a step towards realism. People who spend a lot time with shadow values might appreciate this stuff.

And, it would be optional of course... disabled by default.

EDIT: The Hybrid AO is clearly better than the others. More info and white papers: http://perso.telecom-paristech.fr/~boubek/papers/HAO/

grn
04-09-2009, 03:26 AM
How erroneous/buggy is Nvidia's driver-forced SSAO ? Is this screenshot cropped ?:
http://www.gamerendering.com/wp-content/uploads/nvidia.jpg

It looks quite good...

stone
04-09-2009, 04:14 AM
Might not be critical to most here; but one thing they did when making the new TrueSpace was to have an "FPS Walk around" button. This enables you to drop down into any level you create (such as with LWCAD), and look in every nook and cranny without having to go through the process of loading it into a game-engine every time. There is rough collision detection included. Also, with TS's real-time abilities; a game dev can see his level in roughly the same environment as the game engine he uses. This would save oodles of time, IMO.

-Keith

strongly disagree - when making games you want to use your 3d program for modelling, animating and uv mapping _only_. everything else, including setting up materials, light and viewing the scene and props should be done in a dedicated level editor with a workflow that supports just those needed features and gives you a precise and instant feedback- its a mad mans approach wanting to do games in a 3d program as a 3d application and a level editor are so different in function and abilities. let the 3d application do what it does best, and let the level editor do what it does best.

/stone

shrox
04-09-2009, 04:27 AM
strongly disagree - when making games you want to use your 3d program for modelling, animating and uv mapping _only_. everything else, including setting up materials, light and viewing the scene and props should be done in a dedicated level editor with a workflow that supports just those needed features and gives you a precise and instant feedback- its a mad mans approach wanting to do games in a 3d program as a 3d application and a level editor are so different in function and abilities. let the 3d application do what it does best, and let the level editor do what it does best.

/stone

I would agree with stone on this. Even then, you often will not get exactly what the game will look like, depending upon the editor. Getting the look you want involves constantly going back and forth between programs, not to mention waiting for the compiler to finish.

Tranimatronic
04-09-2009, 09:00 AM
do you mean layers per object or layers per scene ? AFAIK theyve changed the way objects behave so that theres one transform node and one child mesh node. I suppose you could have a mesh node for each layer under one transform (object) node along with an intuitive interface..... in which case its better than Maya already.

They are currently processing my order - cant wait to have a look under the hood ;)

Kuzey
04-09-2009, 09:32 AM
do you mean layers per object or layers per scene ? AFAIK theyve changed the way objects behave so that theres one transform node and one child mesh node. I suppose you could have a mesh node for each layer under one transform (object) node along with an intuitive interface..... in which case its better than Maya already.

They are currently processing my order - cant wait to have a look under the hood ;)

Per project...something similar to what we have in modeler 9.6, the layers on the top right...but better :hey:

It would be efficient if you can copy/cut/paste part of an object to a new layer and continue working on that without being cluttered when things get complex. Also, having a model in a background layer and using that as a guide as you work in the current front most layer...these things make LW great.

I don't mind if it's a radical change in the Core...as long as you can do them with ease. Maybe something like selecting the object in the stack system and locking it, thereby changing it's display to wireframe etc....so it becomes a background layer, so to speak. Then using a shortcut to toggle between this background layer and active layer....like you can now in 9.6 or making them all active layers at the same time with a shift click etc.

Kuzey

Nemoid
04-09-2009, 12:55 PM
one of the latest, interesting things i saw into modelling are 3d coat's retopology tools, some of them are actually great, give an look to them.

other than that, i agree totally onto better edge tools, removing them. adding them and more, with a system similar to maya/modo.

tools working with backgroound constrain, too, and possibility to visualize the Background model as smooth shaded too.

'd also personally put a what LWCAD tools offer as native within the app. (this is not a funfamental thing especially if plugins will integrate in core seamlessly tho)

modeler offers a good toolset, btw, i'd simply get rid of redundant/similar tools making "quite" the same thing, this generates confusion

grn
04-09-2009, 02:14 PM
strongly disagree - when making games you want to use your 3d program for modelling, animating and uv mapping _only_. everything else, including setting up materials, light and viewing the scene and props should be done in a dedicated level editor with a workflow that supports just those needed features and gives you a precise and instant feedback- its a mad mans approach wanting to do games in a 3d program as a 3d application and a level editor are so different in function and abilities. let the 3d application do what it does best, and let the level editor do what it does best.

/stone

Imo, in an ideal application you see what you are doing. No blind working.

Won't take many hours to implement the walk mode if there's already code for realtime "rest on object". Newtek will eventually have to add support for game devices and all kindsa "player perspectives", like fly mode, if it wants to compete with leading game development applications.

Again, if there's code for fly mode, there's some useable code for supporting SpaceNavigator alike devices. Could be vise versa too.

archijam
04-09-2009, 02:31 PM
What quickly comes to mind:

- Sculpting & painting tools
- Interactive unwrapping tools that show and handle overlapping geometry
- Improved "UV Spider" (for texturing road alike objects quickly)
- A quick pipe tool
- poly/point/edge remove that doesn't destroy works
- Retopology tools
- Universally compatible normal map baking system (tweakable normal/tangent behavior) that can handle complex hard surface models
- Parallax map support in viewport
- "Smoothing groups" that can be exported properly aswell
- Realtime SSAO and shadows in viewport (SSAO can be good these days: http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2965415&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1)
- Greater numeric modeling capabilities
- Good coordinate rounding option for some tools (you know how the old LW bevel works - camera zoom affects amount of rounding)
- Edge Bevel like in Rhinoceros
- A bevel that merges "intersecting" geometry
- A janitor tool that cleans up models quickly (can select how to clean)
- A cutting tool that really works (could contain a merge-points-by-range function)
- Mechanically accurate fillet tool
- A deactivation/activation button that drops the tool and deselects. If the is button pressed without a tool, latest selection gets reactivated or deactivated.
- A walk mode (that also works while animations play)
- Is it possible to get rid of the "press spacebar like crazy" to go from polies to points ?
- Modern edge tools
- Dynamic curve patching (resolution controls - could set resolution automaticly by angles, size of features... ?)
- Realtime "rest on object"
- Remove duplicated geometry
- Angle rounding option for some tools (0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, 90...180... "mechanical drawing")

Quoted for big fat agreement (except sculpting and painting, 3D coat's fine).

To add:
-A decent CAD workflow (could use Illustrator/EPS for all I care) as long as I don't have to build or rebuilt every aspect of a model from scratch.
-Can generate accurate, hidden line/plane, vectorized drawings from the elelvations, sections and cut away plans. I don't necessarily mean a renderer, this could be treated an export option (the result object layer based, not texture based).
-Delauney generation of surfaces. (see free rhino plugin example here (http://en.wiki.mcneel.com/default.aspx/McNeel/PointsetReconstruction.html).)

Tranimatronic
04-09-2009, 04:03 PM
-Delauney generation of surfaces. (see free rhino plugin example here (http://en.wiki.mcneel.com/default.aspx/McNeel/PointsetReconstruction.html).)

WOW !! that looks cool. Personally i have absolutely no use for it but it certainly looks the part. Well take it !!

*Pete*
04-09-2009, 05:09 PM
great ideas guys :D

id like to see that we could be able to create a own, personal set of "primitives"
a list where archviz people could have trees, bushes, furniture and so on, character modellers would have different cages/shapes of humans or animals...all with thumbnail images and all...no need to find and load objects that you need to have once you organised the object into the "personal primitive list"

workflow would be like, you built an apartment, take that dropdown list and see for dinner table, pick some chairs, select between different types of curtains or blinders, ready made window shapes..etc.

i hope it makes sence...im too tired.

gren: you wrote "- Is it possible to get rid of the "press spacebar like crazy" to go from polies to points "

in Jays latest video with the 6 million poly dragon he showed selection methods.
holding the ctrl key allows you to select the point, edge or poly that is under the mousepointer.

erikals
04-09-2009, 05:51 PM
so many things,
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95502

-destruction setup to easier break things into a million pieces....
-better dynamics
-fluids
-try to buy and integrate TAFA
-animation layers
-batch bake all textures (like MentalRay)
-selective AA (select an object, choose the amount of AA)

IMI
04-09-2009, 05:54 PM
in Jays latest video with the 6 million poly dragon he showed selection methods.
holding the ctrl key allows you to select the point, edge or poly that is under the mousepointer.

That was one of those things which jumped out at me and made me go :thumbsup:

Tell him CORE needs an "element move" tool, which is one of those little things in Modo which makes a HUGE difference.
If he doesn't know what that is, tell him to open up his copy of Modo and have a look. Judging by CORE's interface, I'm sure they have a copy of Modo there for studying. :D

caesar
04-09-2009, 11:06 PM
so many things,
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95502

-try to buy and integrate TAFA
-


Agreed!

robertoortiz
04-14-2009, 11:09 PM
Bump