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MooseDog
04-03-2009, 08:03 AM
Couldn't find this elsewhere 'round here, so posting a link. Very well done with some cool ~Core insights.

http://fxmogul.com/articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleName=Interview_With_Jay_Ro th

somehow also managed to extract the screencap from the webpage.

selected good quotes:

"Lightwave was a great product that had fallen into a kludgy mess in spots."

"Throughout Lightwave v9, we really pushed it as far as we could. We even have some Core elements in v9.6; also, much of the work of the rendering engine is transferable into Core with little effort, as the last two years of development in particular have had Core portability in mind."

"This system is as powerful, if not moreso, than the best of what is on the market, and that is by design. Now, we are just activating everything, studying workflows, and research new and exciting workflows worthy of the 21st century. "

honestly, this is as thorough a presentation on the core subject as i've seen (and no, i'm not a hardcore member...yet. unless someone has a coupla quid to lend :) ).

Kuzey
04-03-2009, 08:18 AM
Ooooooh...surfaces, after seeing all those demos I thought surfaces will come later. :D

Kuzey

GandB
04-03-2009, 08:41 AM
That was some good information on the "why" of making Core.

IMI
04-03-2009, 09:10 AM
Very very interesting. Thanks for posting this. :)

I'm getting more than a little tired of seeing that dragon though, especially in lime green. ;)

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 09:14 AM
seen that ss before...bigger version though.

if you look carefully, you will see that the noise on the dragon is caused by the visible wireframe, its quite dense.

SaturnX
04-03-2009, 09:22 AM
Different poly counts for each viewport?

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 09:40 AM
visible polys per viewport.

edit: neither of the polycounts show the real amount of polys in the dragon, only what is visible in the viewport.

prometheus
04-03-2009, 10:39 AM
very nice informative interview, it brings a positiv hope for the development of lightwave core, and itīs nice to see the professional statements when jay talks about Maya in a good way thou it is competitor.

However I donīt feel that the statements about that they really have pushed lightwave as far as they can.

Really couldnīt lightwaves hypervoxels system be improved inside of the old lightwave, couldnīt better model creation and deformation tools be applied to this too..Im sure it could aswell as improved particle dynamics etc, It seems to me that there quite a few third party developers that has pushed it quite a bit.

pushing it to that another level to be able to acheive what they wanīt and what third party developers asking for and ultimately us customers, Is in my opinion a completly different thing even if thats the way to go, but
Im not sure that it is a good call to stop the lightwave 9 cycle here and now, I would probably understand that better if they were much more longer in to the core development.

Take these statements from me with a grind of salt thou, Im not a programmer Im not that well informed about the whole lightwave core process etc, itīs just a gut feeling that Newtek would have more to gain on having a continued development of the lightwave 9.6..right know it feels like people are running away from the whole thing cause they have to wait quite some time it seems before it will be production ready, and meanwhile..some little improvements that could keep and enhance Lightwaves competion at a very near future are ignored.

Im not the president thou, itīs their call.and they have made a hard and bold decision.
Probably would a further development impact negativly on the timetable for developing the core and those developments would perhaps not be able to translate to the core either, but I wouldnīt state it in those terms as pushing it as far as they could.

And what does Jay mean by the same ol same ol? when talking about that thereīs not really much new happening in the 3d development, I really canīt follow him on this, it sounds good for marketing propaganda, It would be nice if He could define more clearly what that really means.

Anyway a good interview from Jay.

Michael

biliousfrog
04-03-2009, 11:01 AM
I guess we'll start to get some info now that the price has increased :rolleyes:

jasonwestmas
04-03-2009, 11:12 AM
Great comments and outlook Jay, thanks!

RebelHill
04-03-2009, 11:16 AM
Heres my fave bit....

"some people think we are crazy to do this stuff now, given the market and economic conditions out there. Well, maybe we are.

But I have to think that market stimulation is more likely to come from making exciting and innovative products and trying new things, than just stamping out the same old widget."

This is, without exception, the kind of forward thinking, risk taking, optimistic approach that i love (and not just to 3d, to anything... hell, to life even). IMHO, if your ambitions only extend as far as things u KNOW u can accomplish, then its not reli an ambition at all... U gotta push the envelope... u gotta dream... Im not saying "if u build it they will come"... but I know for sure that if u do your best to, and inspire people with ur efforts, ull never have failed, even if u fall somewhere short of your ultimate goals.

I take my hat off to u newtek, one and all!

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 11:20 AM
im not so sure, i was in the 9.x betas and i saw that NT tried and wanted to add instancing, new uv tools, modelling into Layout etc etc, but failed.

they failed to meet the roadmap much becouse of unexpected difficulties with the old code, so for me the idea of a full rewrite sounds logical...but im no programmer either, so im also speculating about what is the best route to take.

but if it is true as Jay says, then it means that it is more difficult and much slower to code for 9.6 than for CORE, so in the long term we will all benefit of it by getting a fast growing application, based on the latest tech and capable of matching things that other apps do.

prometheus
04-03-2009, 12:01 PM
im not so sure, i was in the 9.x betas and i saw that NT tried and wanted to add instancing, new uv tools, modelling into Layout etc etc, but failed.

they failed to meet the roadmap much becouse of unexpected difficulties with the old code, so for me the idea of a full rewrite sounds logical...but im no programmer either, so im also speculating about what is the best route to take.

but if it is true as Jay says, then it means that it is more difficult and much slower to code for 9.6 than for CORE, so in the long term we will all benefit of it by getting a fast growing application, based on the latest tech and capable of matching things that other apps do.

I agree mostly, these kind of things are hard to judge I guess and mostly time will give the answers to the whole thing.

we could argue about if this is transition will be smooth in terms of keeping
old customers, or if it is a fast and bold move with risk of loosing those customers but in the end getting a new more advanced application and also gaining a whole new user base.

Yepp sure it seems that they had obstacles continuing on the old code in terms of what you mentioned, but really is that true for the whole Old lightwave? I donīt believe so, then again it depends on what is demanded, instances,modeling tools, a new hypervoxel engine or richer toolsets with that, introducing fluids, particle flows, I donīt know whats goin on with cantarcan who did dynamite, maybe that is exactly where it stops because he just canīt push it more with that old code, but still I think
some of dynamites particle features could have been improved inside a better hv system.
Edit (some old hypervoxels versions even had options that are gone in the latest versions)

Itīs just my opinion that I believe they could make the transition to the core smoother without the risktaking of loosing old customers and loosing reputation and trust in the industry, risk taking for the sake of risktaking just to be bold is kinda foolish I think, Not stating that this is the case For the core thou.

Michael

Nicolas Jordan
04-03-2009, 12:05 PM
I liked this part the best.

"We even have some Core elements in v9.6; also, much of the work of the rendering engine is transferable into Core with little effort, as the last two years of development in particular have had Core portability in mind."

Kuzey
04-03-2009, 01:32 PM
I liked this part the best.

"We even have some Core elements in v9.6; also, much of the work of the rendering engine is transferable into Core with little effort, as the last two years of development in particular have had Core portability in mind."

Ah man......I was right about the render engine :hey:

If this information was out a week earlier....there would have been another Core user...oh well :D

Kuzey

CGI Addict
04-03-2009, 01:48 PM
Yea but has anybody with HardCore membership got the first release yet? The interview quotes Jay as saying you guys would get R1 by the end of March. Let me know what you guys think. I know you won't be able to say much, but any info will work for me.

Andyjaggy
04-03-2009, 01:53 PM
Yes we have it.

jasonwestmas
04-03-2009, 01:54 PM
It's not really a release either, it's called a revision.

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 01:55 PM
we got it april 1:st, 5 minutes past midnight :D

as you know, NDA is stopping us from comments, really.

but i can propably say that im happy with the current state of things, and that if you search the forum and read ALL posts by Jayroth in threads about CORE, i can confirm that he didnt lie :D

JMCarrigan
04-03-2009, 02:20 PM
Confirmed. I can state in no uncertain terms that I believe CORE is and will be more so, f a n t a s t i c.

jasonwestmas
04-03-2009, 02:22 PM
Come to think of it, I was correct in my assumptions (according to the interview) that Core will use some of the rendering code from 9.6 (Ported of course). I found it hard to believe that NT would just throw out all that good rendering stuff.

SplineGod
04-03-2009, 02:23 PM
Prometheus,
What bothers me about the statements that they couldnt stick to their roadmap because of limitations within LW is how long does it take to figure out that the SDK has issues? This dev team has had LW in their hands for how long now? It seems that one of the first things you would do is inventory the current code to see where its got problems etc and take that into account when planning new features etc. Making promises and then later back peddling because you suddenly discover that the code is bad or doesnt support proposed features comes across as poor planning.
Also making promises about release dates and not delivering, features not implement or only partially implemented etc isnt something new with Newtek.

CGIAddict:
My first impressions are not good ones.

Titus
04-03-2009, 02:43 PM
Prometheus,
What bothers me about the statements that they couldnt stick to their roadmap because of limitations within LW is how long does it take to figure out that the SDK has issues?

Maybe they tried to clean the code. This is evident since the achieved good results on rendering speed and eficiency, they also worked on a smarter scene loading, etc. As as programmer I know sometimes is better to start from scratch than reworking an old code, and both decisions are expensive.

Andyjaggy
04-03-2009, 02:47 PM
Meh, don't listen to SplineGod he's just bitter that the software he has been using for 15 years is changing.

SplineGod
04-03-2009, 02:50 PM
I totally agree. Bad old code and it sometimes is better to start from scratch.
Let me ask you something. Lets say youve just inherited someone elses code. Do you start trying to add features or do you take the time to carefully look thru the code to see what state its in?
Do you use that investigation as the basis to determine just how good or bad the code is? Who or what is to blame if you make predictions as to what your code will do in 6 months and then fail?
Can you blame the code or was it poor planning? This is all hypothetical mind you... :)

SplineGod
04-03-2009, 02:59 PM
Meh, don't listen to SplineGod he's just bitter that the software he has been using for 15 years is changing.

No, Its changed alot over 15 years. If your conclusion were correct I would have stopped using it a long time ago. I just believe that if it aint broken dont fix it. Change what needs changing, improve and expand the good things and make sure that if you do change something that its actually better and not just different.

Ive used LW for many years to make a living. Its always given me an edge over competitors using other packages. Ive also worked in many studios where people are using other apps. I currently work at a studio where we have LW, Maya and XSI. The VFX supervisor is veteren of the movie business and knows XSI and Maya very well. I was promoted to lead artist recently and was specfically asked if I could train the others to use Lightwave.
Also due to our workload theyre talking about creating 2 workshifts. I was told that they want the LW artists split up between both shifts evenly. The reason being that they know that we are able to kick out more work then the others using other software.
Apparently LW does have its strengths. Most of the changes I see IMO are not good changes.

Andyjaggy
04-03-2009, 03:03 PM
I just think everyone is overreacting with the first build. It's like version .001x revision B. Everyone has made their opinions very clear and I am sure Newtek will listen. I see great potential even in this first release. But..... I forgot I probably shouldn't be talking about this here.

CGI Addict
04-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Oh well, there will be obvious differences of opinion. Good to see it was released. :thumbsup:

jayroth
04-03-2009, 03:22 PM
we got it april 1:st, 5 minutes past midnight :D

as you know, NDA is stopping us from comments, really.

but i can propably say that im happy with the current state of things, and that if you search the forum and read ALL posts by Jayroth in threads about CORE, i can confirm that he didnt lie :D

Actually, it was put online at 11:35 PM Texas time, so we made the deadline.

hrgiger
04-03-2009, 05:08 PM
My first impressions of CORE are good. And I concur with AndyJaggy, SG is just complaining because it's not old Lightwave again.

lwanmtr
04-03-2009, 06:22 PM
My understanding is that the old code had no comments, and documentation by the old dev team was atrocious...so given how complex lw was when the new team came in, it makes sense that it took so long to sift through it and figure it. This is also why the sdk was sorely lacking. I'm not a programmer, but I dont think you can just slap it all together and call it done. Of course, we saw some major improvements in the 9.6 sdk.

I for one am glad they are moving on...although I want a cow generator in it..hehe.

Oh, and I want my Cocoa version..lol

Silkrooster
04-03-2009, 06:40 PM
I never thought I would ever disagree with Splinegod. :) But think about it this way. How large is the user base? Do you want to rock the boat without knowing how far you can stretch the code you are already using?
I think Newtek decided to take the code right to the end. That does not mean they did not know long time before this. I don't think anybody would really know how far you can stretch what you have. Not until you get near the end anyways. In reality only Newtek knows that answer.
If it was me, I probably would try to stretch the code as far as I could. Hopefully planing on the day that the code would have to start from scratch again.

I have seen a lot of good things happen since I started using lightwave. I also seen Newtek miss some deadlines and even broken some of the promises. But none of that effected me personally. So I can't do a lot of complaining that some do. I have a lot of faith in this team, and want to see them rise back to the top. Maybe I don't have any complaints due to I was not on board when Newtek was on top. Maybe thats why some have issues. But there is nothing stopping Newtek from getting back to the top. Especially now that they have started with fresh code. I think everybody should be excited that they are now ready to make some headway. I also realize that no one knows how long it will take to get back to the top. Just that we are now heading in the right direction.

SplineGod
04-03-2009, 07:51 PM
My first impressions of CORE are good. And I concur with AndyJaggy, SG is just complaining because it's not old Lightwave again.

Steve you can concur all you want. It just serves to again further illustrate the difference between the needs of the professional vs the needs ot the hobbyist. WHen you ever get to the point that you actually depend upon the software to make a living then you might start to have some credibility.

SplineGod
04-03-2009, 08:08 PM
I never thought I would ever disagree with Splinegod. :) But think about it this way. How large is the user base? Do you want to rock the boat without knowing how far you can stretch the code you are already using?
I think Newtek decided to take the code right to the end. That does not mean they did not know long time before this. I don't think anybody would really know how far you can stretch what you have. Not until you get near the end anyways. In reality only Newtek knows that answer.
If it was me, I probably would try to stretch the code as far as I could. Hopefully planing on the day that the code would have to start from scratch again.

I have seen a lot of good things happen since I started using lightwave. I also seen Newtek miss some deadlines and even broken some of the promises. But none of that effected me personally. So I can't do a lot of complaining that some do. I have a lot of faith in this team, and want to see them rise back to the top. Maybe I don't have any complaints due to I was not on board when Newtek was on top. Maybe thats why some have issues. But there is nothing stopping Newtek from getting back to the top. Especially now that they have started with fresh code. I think everybody should be excited that they are now ready to make some headway. I also realize that no one knows how long it will take to get back to the top. Just that we are now heading in the right direction.

I agree with some of this in theory. The problem for is that Ive been around software developers/coders etc and Ive done quite a bit of coding in the past. I know that there are people and companies who can be hired to come in a do an inventory on code. They can take a look and give a good assessment as to where it stands etc etc.
Ive worked in this and other industries where deadlines are met and theres no excuses. Ive also been involved with the design and implementation of systems far more important then 3d software and we also had to predict where things would be on certain dates ie. milestones.
The number of times Ive seen Newtek miss deadlines, miss promised features, leave features half done etc has reached a point where myself and many others are losing what patience weve had over the years. Ive been a longtime customer of Newteks going back many many years. Ive dealt with them on many levels long before Jay or most of the people here have. When Im critical of Newtek its something I dont do lightly and Ive exercised great patience with them over many many years. I want them to get it right as much as anyone else and Ive stayed with them long past when many of the other old timers have left and gone on. My patience has started to wear a bit thin. Ive also been at this game at least as long as Jay and theres just some things I dont agree with. If people simply accept everything they do or everything they put out without question it doesnt do anyone any good. Last but not least Im a customer.Ive put thousands of dollars into Newtek and I simply expect to be heard just like others here do too.
The difference is that I dont take moronic potshots at people like Andy or Steve simply because I disagree with them.

Cageman
04-03-2009, 09:28 PM
Maybe this discussion should be moved into the hardCORE forums instead?

Just a thought...

MooseDog
04-03-2009, 10:06 PM
Maybe this discussion should be moved into the hardCORE forums instead?

Just a thought...

anything that respect's one's NDA...yes. general banter about public info, personal/professional experience...no.

overall, i'm glad i found and shared the article and that everyone continued talking about lw. this whole core thing is really, really early in the game, so we're all left only with the project manager's assurances. well, by we i mean those of us outside the hc fraternity, which includes me. not by desire but by economic constraints btw.

it just struck me that jay roth's assurances, and the words he chose to have printed, demonstrated a great understanding of his product's competitive position and his development team's challenges.

btw, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the author of this article, lee stranahan, the guy who used to the the effing hilarious and hilariously useful lw tutorial videos from years ago?

radams
04-03-2009, 11:31 PM
Hi Larry, & everyone,

Hey guys back off Larry a bit...he's been in the production trenches for a long time...his input is something to listen too and not just push aside.
Even if you don't agree...at least be respectful.

Larry, we've both been around this game along time...
I'm assuming that you laid out your concerns or issues on the hardcore forum...or an email to the dev team...

I know that at times we've all had our shout, curse and spit moments.
With NT and others....but you should know better than most here that tools are tools...You've been waiting as long as the rest of us old timers...to see things change and integrate...

You've coded before...and know that LW's old cores and legacy were not original meant to handle what it is even doing today...
that starting from scratch at some point would have to become necessary.

Now I'm not part of Hardcore at this time...so I'm not seeing what you are seeing...but catch your breath....and put some emotional space between you & core....then come back to it detached a bit...Core internally sounds like a major yet wonderful shift...but give your evaluation of the good, bad and concerns you have...to NT.

It doesn't mean that it will all be addressed...or in the way you would like.
But you do have to agree that it's easier to talk with NT than Autodesk (unless you're a huge studio)....and NT at times does implement our user needs...I remember having a chat along time ago with the old dev team...and in the second update...my request was implemented. And that wasn't the only time that's happened...on the video product line...I touched base with NT with a show stopper for the PAL market and I had a fix within the next day....now that doesn't happen with most requests or needs...but NT does try.

I've had the good fortune to chat with Jonas...and others...He is brilliant and amazing...thou he and Jay are taking a diifferent approach...and one from what I've read seems to be the right direction...but if there are issues you're seeing or workflow issues...please let them know...

You and I both over the years have agreed that one of NT's issues has not been focusing properly on complete worklflows...and creating real world solutions...thus the patch work that LW is in now...yes you, me and others have created our own work arounds...and dug deep inside to do what we can do.

But I will say that it is overdue that the old LW code engines be changed.
and I hope that Jay and the team can properly implement what they stated.

Larry, you are one person I'm glad is in Hardcore....
But it is beta (alpha in CORE's case)...so I hope you'll give it some time
to be flushed out...

Cheers,

Ray Adams

SplineGod
04-04-2009, 12:04 AM
Moosedog,
That would be the same Lee. Hes a survivor thats for sure. :)

Ray,
I totally agree. Ive been making my concerns known in the proper places believe me. The problem Im having with Core without revealing anything is that I get a knock at the door and its like a couple of Mormon missionaries dressed up like clowns....its not what I was expecting and not what I would have thought would be the best suit to present to people who you want to listen to you. :)
Common sense would dicate that you present something to people that will be
more of what they expect to experience at least from the start.

IMI
04-04-2009, 03:35 AM
Maybe this discussion should be moved into the hardCORE forums instead?

Just a thought...


Look what happened the last time someone suggested that (post #5)... http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97092
It kinda went downhill and ended up getting locked. ;)

hrgiger
04-04-2009, 03:55 AM
I didn't think I was really taking a potshot at Larry. It was merely a fact. Larrys main problem with CORE is that it does not feel enough like old Lightwave to him. He's not actually guaging the software on its merits or potential, he's simply upset that CORE does not follow a lot of older Lightwaves familiar methods. Is this untrue Larry?
In fact, it was Larry taking the potshot at me. He always likes to point out that I do not use Lightwave professionally as if that somehow diminishes the weight of opinion. He's pointed it out in his last few posts in response to me. I didn't realize that this had become an only for profit forum.

DiedonD
04-04-2009, 04:14 AM
Look what happened the last time someone suggested that (post #5)... http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97092
It kinda went downhill and ended up getting locked. ;)

Nah that post got closed because it got Franchised , no I meant Franticized , and it was becoming a mess really!

IMI
04-04-2009, 04:27 AM
Nah that post got closed because it got Franchised , no I meant Franticized , and it was becoming a mess really!

Well of course I know that's why it got closed, but the antagonist in question said himself that partially why he entered the thread was because he too thought it should have been only in HC...
Had not that chain of events begun, it would possibly still be open. ;)

Cageman
04-04-2009, 04:27 AM
The problem Im having with Core without revealing anything is that I get a knock at the door and its like a couple of Mormon missionaries dressed up like clowns....its not what I was expecting and not what I would have thought would be the best suit to present to people who you want to listen to you. :)

Uh?

Have you and I used the same version of CORE?

Cageman
04-04-2009, 04:30 AM
Larrys main problem with CORE is that it does not feel enough like old Lightwave to him. He's not actually guaging the software on its merits or potential, he's simply upset that CORE does not follow a lot of older Lightwaves familiar methods.

Yeah... that is exactly what I believe is going on as well.

RebelHill
04-04-2009, 05:21 AM
Larrys main problem with CORE is that it does not feel enough like old Lightwave to him....

He always likes to point out that I do not use Lightwave professionally as if that somehow diminishes the weight of opinion...

On that first point... come on HR... whattaya... psychic?? can u read larry's thoughts and feelings... I dont think so. Dont try to tell folks what they think and feel or why... u sound like my ex-girlfriend!!

But on the second, ur dead bang... hobbiest or pro, retard or genius, a user is a user, and any user opinion is a valid one... but thats gotta include BOTH urs AND larry's... otherwise u may as well try arguing which is best, coke or pepsi...

For my own part... ive never been much of a modeller... i find it dull and tedious, and it doesnt interest me much, so this first release of core is COULD effectively score a big fat zero from me...

but u know what... im gonna reserve judgement till I see a finished thing... What I see atm is a new direction, a the NT guys really putting in the effort, and thats enough for me to give 'em a lil bit of faith, and the benefit of the doubt if nothing else.

I think if some of you are allowing ur "distaste" of each other as people, or personalities to cloud ur judgement and agruments of the issues at hand... it CANT be incorrect to state a preference... so come on... let the egos relax a lil and lets focus on whats important here (in this forum i mean) and thats the software.

SBowie
04-04-2009, 06:41 AM
Great interview, thanks for posting.

On the other matter, I don't think anyone imagines that being a HC member (or not being one) means you can't even mention Core. The trick for HC members, imho, is simply this: allow NewTek to do the 'reveals'. Once something has been exposed through proper channels (which I am sure we'll see more of as Core progresses), it is on the table for public discussion.

We've seen some videos, a few screenshots in public. I expect any discussion that basically springs from those (or from something on the public Core pages - such as marketing policy and activity, pricing, etc.) and does so without exposing information previously not made public from those is ok.

UnCommonGrafx
04-04-2009, 08:04 AM
I tell ya, Larry,
All I read from you lately is sour grapes when it comes to what the dev team is doing. Some of what you say is spot on and funny, too. Love the Mormon Missionary Clowns.
But a lot of what you've said as of late seems a bit stuck in the mud, as though you aren't willing to go through this growth spurt to get to where we will be. I know this isn't the case, though.

They can do us better, no doubt. And I'm sure they will. We all want a new LightWave. Lightwave being the Core of that thought. All puns intended.

*Pete*
04-04-2009, 08:06 AM
Actually, it was put online at 11:35 PM Texas time, so we made the deadline.

oh, thats what i get for listening to rumours :(

in my time, you were several hours late but many said that you missed the deadline by 5 minutes...

ill take your word for it, we got CORE and thats what matters :thumbsup:

*Pete*
04-04-2009, 08:23 AM
as for Larrys concerns...of course he is entitled to them and largely i do agree with him, just as he i do not completely feel at home with CORE but for me it is less of a problem becouse either A: CORE will transform into the direction of old LW as it grows, or B: i will adapt to CORE's way of doing things.

id prefer A, but anyway...it is the one negative thing of the whole, but that negative is compensated by a lot of other things, completely unimaginable or impossible for the old LW, the stuff that really have improved.

balancing the pros and cons i do have a strong positive feel of CORE, dealing with the cons (which are the same for me as for Larry) would make CORE flawless.

its still early in development, how it looks like next month of in half a year will be intresting to see.

UnCommonGrafx
04-04-2009, 08:28 AM
No doubt, Pete.
I await Larry's expertise contributions to my learning Core when the time comes. I know it will be done to our liking. I agree with a lot of what he says.

(Chuckle, I am having issues with 'hearing' people's tone. I think that's why I typed the observation above. I'm working on it.

Riff_Masteroff
04-04-2009, 09:21 AM
From the interview and for me, the use of the word "parametric" is a first principle. If fully realized in actuality, Jay Roth might wield the 'Sword of Damocles' over the head of a certain, much larger, corrupt and greedy software house. I hope Jay Roth is 'Obama' enough to listen & integrate the viable visions of others into his labor of love. From his postings and from all that I know about Mr. Roth, I think he is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damocles

Nemoid
04-04-2009, 09:25 AM
Not into core so far, but from vids and screenshots i saw i simply think its a bit early to express concerns and such.
Obviously, Larry is a great expert of Lw, so its really worth listening to him and all his suggestions, but from what i saw i got the feeling the direction for CORE is quite right. old tools, but with modifier stack and history.so exploited into a different, modern way And all, into an integrated environment which will get better as the app advances.

Regarding code, not expert at all, but i have friends who know way better than me and they keep saying that basic things like for example unlimited undos for the whole app, and non linerar inherent structure of the core in managing items, as well as plugin calls and more, aren't easy things to implement when code didn't allow them in the first place.
If this is correct, then implementing such features, and also modern features in many areas of the app, required rewriting of the core, which is what Newtek is doing now...

Sekhar
04-04-2009, 09:28 AM
oh, thats what i get for listening to rumours :(

in my time, you were several hours late but many said that you missed the deadline by 5 minutes...

ill take your word for it, we got CORE and thats what matters :thumbsup:

In any case, NT was well ahead of the deadline per time in California, which we all know is the center of the universe. :)

jasonwestmas
04-04-2009, 11:02 AM
I tell ya, Larry,
All I read from you lately is sour grapes when it comes to what the dev team is doing. Some of what you say is spot on and funny, too. Love the Mormon Missionary Clowns.
But a lot of what you've said as of late seems a bit stuck in the mud, as though you aren't willing to go through this growth spurt to get to where we will be. I know this isn't the case, though.

They can do us better, no doubt. And I'm sure they will. We all want a new LightWave. Lightwave being the Core of that thought. All puns intended.

Only thing is that there is no old lightwave architecture in CORE, that would be too limiting. Would I be wrong if I said that if you change the foundation of a house in order to make the house more efficient, you have to change just as much of what is built upon the top of the foundation. So it never surprised me that Core is looking so different. It would help "some" however to bring a little more familiarity back into CORE as so many have expressed. Myself, I'm ready for much change as long as it is more powerful and easy to pick up.

SplineGod
04-04-2009, 11:32 AM
I didn't think I was really taking a potshot at Larry. It was merely a fact. Larrys main problem with CORE is that it does not feel enough like old Lightwave to him. He's not actually guaging the software on its merits or potential, he's simply upset that CORE does not follow a lot of older Lightwaves familiar methods. Is this untrue Larry?
In fact, it was Larry taking the potshot at me. He always likes to point out that I do not use Lightwave professionally as if that somehow diminishes the weight of opinion. He's pointed it out in his last few posts in response to me. I didn't realize that this had become an only for profit forum.

Steve with you its always potshots. What you stated here is fantasy, conjecture, fairytale. You have NO clue why I want what I want and suggesting otherwise is way out of line. Its always your way to take potshots at me in particular if I disagree with you or simply breathe in some way you dont like.
When I mentioned that you dont use LW professionally was that something I made up, conjectured at dreamed up? Its a fact that we can both agree on.

I started off using LW as a hobbyist years ago. I also felt my feathers get a bit ruffled when I saw that Newtek seemd to cater to the professional market more then the hobbyist one. Later I found out that it was correct for Newtek to do so because its the professional market that does and should drive development of the software.The reason is that what works for the professional will mostly likely work for the hobbyist but not the other way around Many hobbyists bought LW because they saw what professionals do with it. Now that Ive used LW professionally for many years vs using it as a hobbyist its definately given me a better perspective. Working freelance with LW vs using it at several studios also gives me a better perspective on the needs of both those situations.
So yes Steve not having that experience doesnt diminish your opinion but I think Newtek should give more weight to the opinions of those who use the software professionally. What does diminish your opinion is your obvious desire to take those potshots at me when the opportunity presents itself.

SplineGod
04-04-2009, 11:45 AM
I tell ya, Larry,
All I read from you lately is sour grapes when it comes to what the dev team is doing. Some of what you say is spot on and funny, too. Love the Mormon Missionary Clowns.
But a lot of what you've said as of late seems a bit stuck in the mud, as though you aren't willing to go through this growth spurt to get to where we will be. I know this isn't the case, though.

They can do us better, no doubt. And I'm sure they will. We all want a new LightWave. Lightwave being the Core of that thought. All puns intended.

Yea those funny missionaries... :)
Not being a stick in the mud. Ive always relearned every new version of LW like everyome else. But LW was always LW but somewhat better each time. The problem was t hat there were some bad legacy issues that also traveled upstream with it. We were always willing to move ahead despite that because the strengths of LW always outweighed the weaknesses.
For me personally I have to look at this from the standpoint of a professional user. I literally pay my bills from using LW. What I want is LW on steroids, LW with the tumors removed. If LW was so bad why are we all here? I just feelt that it would have been better, more logical etc to have Core feeling like Newtek took the cream off the top of LW9.6 and started Core with that so that any of the bad was gone and underneath it all was a brand new powerful engine and drive train. It doesnt matter IMO whats under the hood as long as I know its better then what was under the hood before. What Im mainly concerned about is that its still the very best of LW and not something else. LWs always worked for me and I was hoping for LW that worked better for me t hen before. If I have to learn something completely new at this point then it makes sense to learn something that has a track record and is being used in the industry rather then go thru the whole process again, Ive done with LW over the years, of trying to convince various places that I work at to go with it. So its not a matter of not wanting to learn new things because I do all the time but I only have so much time to spare. I really dont want to have to totally relearn a new app that will take y ears before its mature solely on the promise that it will someday will be something when there are other companies making similar promises that already have products that are powerful and are being used in the industry. Im hoping that Newtek doesnt force me to make that choice.

SplineGod
04-04-2009, 11:52 AM
Only thing is that there is no old lightwave architecture in CORE, that would be too limiting. Would I be wrong if I said that if you change the foundation of a house in order to make the house more efficient, you have to change just as much of what is built upon the top of the foundation. So it never surprised me that Core is looking so different. It would help "some" however to bring a little more familiarity back into CORE as so many have expressed. Myself, I'm ready for much change as long as it is more powerful and easy to pick up.

Sure you make changes to the foundation after being pretty sure that the changes are for the better. On the other hand you see very little in the way of major changes to how foundations are created because the current methods for the most part still work well and are still valid. Again, are the changes just different or better? Im always ready to make a change and I totally agree that it makes sense to do so as long as its more powerful and easy to pick up.
The only problem is that currently Core isnt any of those and wont be for a significant amount of time. On top of that it also has to be robust and dependable. Those will also take more time. Using that same logic right now would mean for me that maybe I should be looking at those other apps that core seems to be trying to emulate, that set those so called standards in the first palce. Lightwave for me already is powerful and easy to pick up. Core should take that and run with it. :)

prometheus
04-04-2009, 12:13 PM
Is there a problem here when talking about the transition to the lightwave core and what we should expect in terms of Learning lightwave core and how different it will be to learn?

All this core program is probably fantastic in terms that users can fall in at the early stage to help develop and shape the program as users want it and
this Is a first timer in the industri never done before?

But those who cant or wonīt join in are left out from such important information so they have no clue on what to expect and if it will be similar to learn as to the old lightwave.

In my opinion itīs a very very bad policy to keep information hidden
On the grounds of a paycheck need to know basis, it will only serve the few customers signing up, and it wouldnīt release the full power of getting
peoples interest and trust in an upcoming application, just my thoughts.


the only information I have at hand is that lightwave core will be very familiar to the old one.

My question to larry (splinegod)

Have you got to little information on how learning core will turn out?

Do you think Newtek isnīt providing enough information about those aspects?

Lastly ...if thatīs the case? why do you think this kind of information isīnt
made available to all of us, some kind of ND or could it be that they simply donīt know themself since itīs in such a early stage?

Michael

Nicolas Jordan
04-04-2009, 12:13 PM
The problem Im having with Core without revealing anything is that I get a knock at the door and its like a couple of Mormon missionaries dressed up like clowns....its not what I was expecting and not what I would have thought would be the best suit to present to people who you want to listen to you. :)


:agree: I have to totally agree with that statement at the moment.

I would also agree with Larry that opinions should carry more weight if they use Lightwave professionally since they are under much more pressure to get work done and are often up against tight deadlines when things just have to work. I wouldn't say hobbyists are any less skilled than professionals in some cases but they don't have to deal with the same kind of pressure.

CGI Addict
04-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Going strictly on what was provided in the interview, in particular the part referring to Maya, it's pretty apparent to me that NewTek does indeed have a long-term road map set in place for it's survivability. That in my opinion bodes well for CORE. NewTek seems to be positioning itself as the low cost alternative to MAYA's pipeline structure.

My only concern is in how NewTek decided to just release CORE as a modeling toolset. We all know how poor LW has been at character animating, and it seems as though this is going to continue in CORE, but who really knows, I'm just basing my opinion on NewTek's track record so far. It seems that Modo which is descendent from LW is having the same issue.

Again these are just my impressions and I am not trying to take swipes at NewTek, CORE or MODO, it just seems that at some point NewTek would try to implement good strong CA tools to fend off XSI, Houdini, Maya. etc. For all CORE might wind up being as a modeling tool, this alone isn't going to help. The other big 5 will keep looking at CORE in their rearview mirrors as it tries to keep up.

I'll hope for the best for CORE like everyone else here. :thumbsup:

prometheus
04-04-2009, 12:16 PM
The only problem is that currently Core isnt any of those and wont be for a significant amount of time. On top of that it also has to be robust and dependable. Those will also take more time. Using that same logic right now would mean for me that maybe I should be looking at those other apps that core seems to be trying to emulate, that set those so called standards in the first palce. :)

Very much some of my thought to...Houdini fits in the emulate theory.
Edit..

and there comes a time when looking at industri options in sweden, well nothing beats a god demo and artistic skillsets I guess,
but when Identifying demands of skilled artist and all you can see is 3d max,maya and houdini as an runner up, you might have to
change direction at this point in time, two or three years ahead is a different story.

Michael

CGI Addict
04-04-2009, 12:20 PM
Is there a problem here when talking about the transition to the lightwave core and what we should expect in terms of Learning lightwave core and how different it will be to learn?

All this core program is probably fantastic in terms that users can fall in at the early stage to help develop and shape the program as users want it and
this Is a first timer in the industri never done before?

But those who cant or wonīt join in are left out from such important information so they have no clue on what to expect and if it will be similar to learn as to the old lightwave.

In my opinion itīs a very very bad policy to keep information hidden
On the grounds of a paycheck need to know basis, it will only serve the few customers signing up, and it wouldnīt release the full power of getting
peoples interest and trust in an upcoming application, just my thoughts.


the only information I have at hand is that lightwave core will be very familiar to the old one.

My question to larry (splinegod)

Have you got to little information on how learning core will turn out?

Do you think Newtek isnīt providing enough information about those aspects?

Lastly ...if thatīs the case? why do you think this kind of information isīnt
made available to all of us, some kind of ND or could it be that they simply donīt know themself since itīs in such a early stage?

Michael

Agree.

I don't use Modo and yet I know more about the 401 release than I do with CORE. NewTek seems to have created an atmosphere of the haves and have nots and it wasn't even necessary. I have to really hand it to Brad and the folks over at Luxology in the way they have handled delivery of news for 401. Very professionally done, which speaks volumes for company attitude with itself and client alike.

Nicolas Jordan
04-04-2009, 12:25 PM
It seems that Modo which is descendent from LW is having the same issue.

I think modos lack of rigging/character tools is due to the old dev team leads not being specialists in that area and if they intend to implement it at some point they will likely have to hire someone with extensive experience in that area. Maybe they already have been working on this and the reveal is right around the corner? Who knows, just my opinion. :)

CGI Addict
04-04-2009, 12:28 PM
I think modos lack of rigging/character tools is due to the old dev team leads not being specialists in that area and if they intend to implement it at some point they will likely have to hire someone with extensive experience in that area. Maybe they already have been working on this and the reveal is right around the corner? Who knows, just my opinion. :)

You could be right on with that. My comment deals with the how Modo itself is now having to deal with that and how it's lack of CA tools is part of it's ties to LW.

Nicolas Jordan
04-04-2009, 12:29 PM
I have to really hand it to Brad and the folks over at Luxology in the way they have handled delivery of news for 401.

:agree: I really like the way it is being revealed. I hope Newtek continues to reveal Core with demo videos and info before the Q4 release. This would only make sense once things are feature complete for that release.

cresshead
04-04-2009, 12:38 PM
1000 words or 1 picture?:D

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=71997&d=1238870121

Sekhar
04-04-2009, 12:41 PM
Whatever you guys might say, hats off to Jay and NT for having the guts to shake up the status quo and be innovative. I'm a SW guy, and I know how hard it is to justify a project to rebuild everything from ground up. I'm on HC, and all the technical justifications aside (which I take at face value since I don't know the code), I can see CORE workflow is simply more flexible and productive. This alone justifies the changes from a user perspective, IMO.

prometheus
04-04-2009, 12:50 PM
Agree.

I don't use Modo and yet I know more about the 401 release than I do with CORE. NewTek seems to have created an atmosphere of the haves and have nots and it wasn't even necessary. I have to really hand it to Brad and the folks over at Luxology in the way they have handled delivery of news for 401. Very professionally done, which speaks volumes for company attitude with itself and client alike.

yupp..Luxology has been very smart and professional in terms of providing information and marketing and showcasing their product, to the point that they have me on the interest list, I have some minor objections to some things thou like the choice not to have a history stack and not comprimizing speed, in the long run I think lightwave core will have an upperhand because of the flexibilities it all offers and I believe speed could be retained or improved as software and hardware progresses.

However..
Modo is also one of those industri demands that more and more seem to pop up as requested skills in advertised jobs..so at this point in time it might start to make sense aswell, thereīs quite more design related jobs than film related jobs here in sweden and Modo fitīs more in to such pipeline than Lightwave does, even if I would prefer to do film work.

Michael

jayroth
04-04-2009, 12:52 PM
oh, thats what i get for listening to rumours :(

in my time, you were several hours late but many said that you missed the deadline by 5 minutes...

ill take your word for it, we got CORE and thats what matters :thumbsup:

The proof is in the timestamp of the "GO!" post; remember to adjust for Texas time...

Sekhar
04-04-2009, 01:04 PM
The proof is in the timestamp of the "GO!" post; remember to adjust for Texas time...

The confusion is because we'd assumed it was going to show up on the downloads page like usual and took us a while before we discovered the Go! post.

Tranimatronic
04-04-2009, 02:11 PM
by re-writing Lightwave from the ground up you certainally wll have the chance of removing all of its current shortcomings. You also have the chance of removing all of its current strengths.

What EXACTLY makes Lightwave better than Maya/Max/Xsi ? is it one thing ? is it many things ?

To different users it may be different things. To me its the "get 'er done" attitude that Newtek advertises - and therefore understands.
If Newtek takes this attitude and builds on it, Core will be a resounding success. If they dont understand their own product then its doomed to failure.

Write down 10 reasons you use LW over any of the competition and send these to Newtek. What makes Lightwave Lightwave ? Be a part of shaping this new product. Im sure they are listening......

dwburman
04-04-2009, 03:24 PM
I'm learning Maya now. It's a powerful app and it has some great modeling tools, but I don't get the feeling that it's built for speed. Part of that feeling is likely due to me not being used to the interface but I feel like I always have to go to the menus or the tool bar to switch tools. There doesn't seem to be as many keyboard shortcut and using the gadget slows things down a bit too.

Hopefully NT can add the power and still keep the feeling of immediacy that LW currently has.

We all enjoy hearing stories of projects being started with other apps, getting bogged down and then getting rescued by a ragtag group of LW artists. I'd hate to see LW lose that edge.

lwanmtr
04-04-2009, 03:29 PM
Actually, Maya has alot of shortcuts, and the hotbox is quite useful form some things...
It s a powerful app, and I use it for some things (less lately since im really getting into LW's character tools more). Modeling in Maya, to me, is kinda clunky..I prefer modeling in LW.

jasonwestmas
04-04-2009, 03:37 PM
I'm learning Maya now. It's a powerful app and it has some great modeling tools, but I don't get the feeling that it's built for speed. Part of that feeling is likely due to me not being used to the interface but I feel like I always have to go to the menus or the tool bar to switch tools. There doesn't seem to be as many keyboard shortcut and using the gadget slows things down a bit too.

Hopefully NT can add the power and still keep the feeling of immediacy that LW currently has.

We all enjoy hearing stories of projects being started with other apps, getting bogged down and then getting rescued by a ragtag group of LW artists. I'd hate to see LW lose that edge.

The key framing and rigging tools in maya are very fast and accurate. I would use maya for those reasons alone. I know what you mean in other areas of it though. I don't like drop down menus.

lwanmtr
04-04-2009, 03:45 PM
The key framing and rigging tools in maya are very fast and accurate. I would use maya for those reasons alone. I know what you mean in other areas of it though. I don't like drop down menus.

Of course, one thing I havent figured out how to do in maya is drive one rig with another rig....for instance, i've been using mocap scenes to drive a seperate rig with ik...you might be able to in maya, but if so, it's not as easy.

Another thing i hate about maya is that the widgets dont allow for selecting objects that are behind them...you have to deselect, to get rid of the widget, then select the object that was covered by it..it's annoying.

hrgiger
04-04-2009, 05:07 PM
On that first point... come on HR... whattaya... psychic?? can u read larry's thoughts and feelings... I dont think so. Dont try to tell folks what they think and feel or why... u sound like my ex-girlfriend!!



Um no, Larry said so himself. It wasn't me being psychic (though I am).

hrgiger
04-04-2009, 05:21 PM
Steve with you its always potshots. What you stated here is fantasy, conjecture, fairytale. You have NO clue why I want what I want and suggesting otherwise is way out of line. Its always your way to take potshots at me in particular if I disagree with you or simply breathe in some way you dont like.
When I mentioned that you dont use LW professionally was that something I made up, conjectured at dreamed up? Its a fact that we can both agree on.



Hmm, I said that you were unhappy that CORE doesn't follow some of LW standard methods. These are things you said yourself. Why did they do this and why did they do that and why did they make it different then it is in LW presently... How is any of that fairytale, conjecture or fantasy? And how exactly is that taking a shot at you? Is it true or is it not? Yes, it's true. Now you're saying I'm making it up. Talk about credibility.

jasonwestmas
04-04-2009, 05:39 PM
Of course, one thing I havent figured out how to do in maya is drive one rig with another rig....for instance, i've been using mocap scenes to drive a seperate rig with ik...you might be able to in maya, but if so, it's not as easy.

Another thing i hate about maya is that the widgets dont allow for selecting objects that are behind them...you have to deselect, to get rid of the widget, then select the object that was covered by it..it's annoying.

Never had to use mocap in maya I was required to use Motion Builder for editing. Selecting in maya could be better but as many like to say, the benefits outweight the few poor idiosyncrysies.

jasonwestmas
04-04-2009, 05:43 PM
That raises a question for me: We are expected to use 9.6 to "fill in the holes" in Core for a transitional period. (How long is that transition supposed to be, actually?) But as Core is now, the difference between them is so huge, that for someone new it means having to learn two apps. That is quite a turn off, if you ask me. Wouldnīt it be better to make Core ( default navigation, shortcuts,etc.) as close to 9.6 as possible?

It most likely will have that "Classic" option. There is a lot of NT talk to back that up especially when we consider how flexible things are in the beginnings of a new app that is designed to be as flexible as possible. . . .and seeing how early in the game the public is testing Core and providing suggestions by will of NT.

AbnRanger
04-04-2009, 05:51 PM
Larry, I certainly understand your concerns, but in order for Newtek to deliver the "New" LW that most of the community had been clamoring for...you knew they'd have to break a bunch of eggs to make that omelet.

Things like a modifier stack has been sorely missing and makes life a lot easier...you'll be glad at some point that they finally took that step...including the unification of Modeler and Layout.
I also see no problem with them trying to emulate much of Houdini's or XSI's workflow. Imitation happens (for good reason) everywhere you go in life. We teach our kids to surround themselves with peers that are going somewhere and make good choices. Same goes for software. If something is working extremely well, take some copious notes...unless you have come across a better method. I can't fault Newtek for "taking some notes" from other applications, even if it means upsetting the apple cart a bit with it's own userbase. It's bound to happen anytime a company tries to take a huge leap forward.
If you'll humor me for a minute, I have an analogy that I think applies here to an extent. I remember many times when I was on patrol at night, you'd often have to travel in a single file line. Any time you'd have to slow down and negotiate an obstacle (large fallen tree, creek, marshy spot, etc.) some leaders would immediately start trucking again once they crossed it...only to create a break in contact (which can kill a mission). So, to remedy that, they'd have to make sure they remembered to proceed slowly enough to keep the patrol intact.
I think Newtek is surmounting their largest obstacle in years, and from what Jay said, they are trying to be mindful of keeping it "slow" enough for current LW users, until everyone's across it, so to speak.

Someone who is as experienced an entrenched in LW as yourself will do fine with LW 9.6 for production purposes until CORE is complete, and as far as learning a new application, it will still be far less foreign to you than jumping wholesale to another application.
For someone like me, who is already more comfortable in another application, it's a different matter. CORE in it's current state, isn't anywhere near what I was hoping for (I thought it would be further along in it's development...almost a finished product), but for long time LW users like yourself, it gives you a chance to grow into it as it develops.

archijam
04-04-2009, 05:55 PM
The Core alpha is out less than a week, and we are already guessing how similar it is going to be to 9.6 to use?

Is it not so difficult to imagine that they are working FIRST on the fundamentals of the new program base and functionality (ie. that which clearly goes in new, directions and therefore possibilities), and SECOND on fine-tuning the UI, shortcuts, tool selection defaults, etc?

This speculation is pointless and only confuses those to whom the Alpha is not available.

SplineGod
04-04-2009, 06:30 PM
Veehoy thats exactly one of my concerns. Common sense dictate that if we have to use both make them feel at least from the same universe.

Don,
Sure add the new stuff etc. To be honest I dont want a developer tell me how to work with the software when I use it day in and day out in production. It should be the other way around. Ive done demos at
that LA User group where some of the Lightwave Devs were there and were blown away that LW could do the things I was doing. I want Core to be what I need rather then Core giving me the power to do what IT wants me too.
If I want an XSI or Houdini like pipeline I can simply pay for them. I can tell you that both currently do what they do better then Core will for a very long time. The other problem is that Houdini and XSI are also being developed and are not standing still either. They also have money behind them. I can also get work using either which wont be the case with Core for a long time.
Im not convinced that Newtek gets what makes Lightwave what it is because I hear very little of that and see even less.
I shouldnt be given what is supposed to be the successor to the LW9 line and have it be very different and then be told to be patient that it will or might be able to be configured to work like LW someday. Thats just nuts IMO.

RebelHill
04-04-2009, 06:36 PM
umm??? Have NT not said all along that in core they were gonna be trying to build a new package with all this new power, etc... but KEEP as many of the workflows from existing LW???

And um??? Might it not be a lil early to judge if the hit that nail or not??? Thats like seeing a brand spanking new engine design for a mtor car, and moaning it doesnt have a steering whell... christ on crutches be patient will ya... howd u like like someone criticising ur work for looking all "wireframey" when u havent got round to rendering it yet?

jasonwestmas
04-04-2009, 06:40 PM
umm??? Have NT not said all along that in core they were gonna be trying to build a new package with all this new power, etc... but KEEP as many of the workflows from existing LW???

And um??? Might it not be a lil early to judge if the hit that nail or not??? Thats like seeing a brand spanking new engine design for a mtor car, and moaning it doesnt have a steering whell... christ on crutches be patient will ya... howd u like like someone criticising ur work for looking all "wireframey" when u havent got round to rendering it yet?

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying above. The argument some are making is that NT had 2 years of coding and they think that just because core doesn't navigate and doesn't "feel" like everything that classic modeler does that CORE must be way off base. I believe it's way too early to tell if Core is going to be better than Modeler.

jasonwestmas
04-04-2009, 06:55 PM
Im not convinced that Newtek gets what makes Lightwave what it is because I hear very little of that and see even less.
I shouldnt be given what is supposed to be the successor to the LW9 line and have it be very different and then be told to be patient that it will or might be able to be configured to work like LW someday. Thats just nuts IMO.

LOL Larry, you are talking harshly about a newborn baby. I agree NT could be more frank about their plans but the ambiguity is just a sign of how new this software is. They do want US and especially people like you help design the new Lightwave infant. This is no exaggeration on my part either. Like we all know there are other options and we still have 9.6 and it does work more or less. :)

lwanmtr
04-04-2009, 08:26 PM
There will be growing pains, to be sure..and the ones who may have the hardest time adjusting are the old schoolers...while I've been using lw since before newtek had it (them), I welcome much of whats being done..I even tolerate the unified app, because if I really hate doing some things there, I always have 9.6...

But, like several folks have pointed out...it's waaaaaaaay early to be making conclusions about how it's gonna end up working...I'd wait at least until september before complaining, because I would think that by then the basic workflow will be present.

Till then..sit back and enjoy the ride...

SplineGod
04-04-2009, 09:20 PM
LOL Larry, you are talking harshly about a newborn baby. I agree NT could be more frank about their plans but the ambiguity is just a sign of how new this software is. They do want US and especially people like you help design the new Lightwave infant. This is no exaggeration on my part either. Like we all know there are other options and we still have 9.6 and it does work more or less. :)

Yes its early. The problem is that the baby doesnt look like the parents. To be honest the future plans dont bother me nearly as bad as the horse tripping over itself as soon as the race starts. First impressions play a key with just about anything esp when youre trying to sell people on it and get money out of them.
I dont think it would have been difficult at all to make Core look, feel, smell, taste like LW at all from the start. Thats not to say that it should be the same and according to NT its not the same under the hood. How hard can it be to make the Interface look and behave like LW yet have all the vitamins and minerals underneath?
IM also and have been for LW being a unified app.
The workflow can easily be preserved that myself or others are used to.
You could hit a button that changes the itnterface to be mostly modeler centric for times when I just need to model without all the rest of layout in my face. When Im animating I could change to the layout interface without the modeling tools also getting in my face. I could have a hybrid mode where I have layout and some of the modeling tools I need to deal with fixing deformation issues on characters etc.
Since we know we have to use 9.6 with Core for awhile to come then make Core as visually and operationally seamless
with 9.6 as much as possible.

The basic workflow should already be in Core from the get go. We have a workflow thats been great for a long time.
Monkey with the workflow later and gradually as new things are added or activated.

jasonwestmas
04-04-2009, 09:34 PM
Yes its early. The problem is that the baby doesnt look like the parents. To be honest the future plans dont bother me nearly as bad as the horse tripping over itself as soon as the race starts. First impressions play a key with just about anything esp when youre trying to sell people on it and get money out of them.
I dont think it would have been difficult at all to make Core look, feel, smell, taste like LW at all from the start. Thats not to say that it should be the same and according to NT its not the same under the hood. How hard can it be to make the Interface look and behave like LW yet have all the vitamins and minerals underneath?

I dunno, for some reason I'm not worried or concerned yet. I have used 9.3.1 modeler for a lot of character modeling and UV work in many different types of scenarios. To me the power was there and of course you know MANY MANY third party plugins made that possble BTW. . . but aside from the smooth navigation I found I was constantly clicking way too much when modeling and often I was updating my hot keys to get each set of operations to move quicker. There has to be a better way to consolidate. So though I have been impressed by modeler a little and I rather use it than say maya or max I can't help but keep an open mind about new independant work flows and seeing as we have gotten this chance to change lw for the better while getting that classic feel that many people love back in there. But again, I'm not really shocked by any of what NT has done just at the reaction to it this early in the game.

SplineGod
04-04-2009, 10:02 PM
LOL! Lets just say that two norwegian looking parents arent going to have an african looking baby without a few eyebrows being raised in the process. :)
I agree that Core will do all kinds of things later. What I simply dont get
is why not release it feeling more like LW then something else? It probably
took more effort to do that then start us all on common, familiar ground.

cresshead
04-04-2009, 10:24 PM
LOL! Lets just say that two norwegian looking parents arent going to have an african looking baby without a few eyebrows being raised in the process. :)
I agree that Core will do all kinds of things later. What I simply dont get
is why not release it feeling more like LW then something else? It probably
took more effort to do that then start us all on common, familiar ground.

:lol: funny!

maybe they came from the angle of make sure it looks/behaves 'different' out of the gate so people are 100% SURE it's a new app from the ground up and not some tweek/hack to 9.6 with a u.i. skin on top...

i really think you'll be much happier once the next build is out

dwburman
04-04-2009, 11:00 PM
Lately, most of my Maya learning has been focused on modeling. I'm sure there are areas of the app that don't feel as sluggish. I'm also sure there are a lot of keyboard commands and that you can set your own, but they aren't as obvious as they are in LW.

Actually, NOW is a good time to complain about the workflow of CORE being too alien from LW. It's better to let the devs know if they're getting off on the wrong foot than to wait and see if they change it later on. Otherwise they might think, "Oh, no one complained about us doing that way so they don't have a problem with it."

:)

AbnRanger
04-04-2009, 11:44 PM
:lol: funny!

maybe they came from the angle of make sure it looks/behaves 'different' out of the gate so people are 100% SURE it's a new app from the ground up and not some tweek/hack to 9.6 with a u.i. skin on top...

i really think you'll be much happier once the next build is outI actually like the new UI. It's clean and doesn't overwhelm you with tons of Tonka Toy icons (Maya) or Toy's R Us round buttons (XSI), and you have the flexibility to arrange the look and layout as old school as you please.

TeZzy
04-05-2009, 02:04 AM
maybe think of CORE as the ugly duckling lol....

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 02:11 AM
At this point thats not a problem :)

calilifestyle
04-05-2009, 02:15 AM
Agree.

I don't use Modo and yet I know more about the 401 release than I do with CORE. NewTek seems to have created an atmosphere of the haves and have nots and it wasn't even necessary. I have to really hand it to Brad and the folks over at Luxology in the way they have handled delivery of news for 401. Very professionally done, which speaks volumes for company attitude with itself and client alike.

:thumbsup: Very true. It's been handled so well that i cant wait to upgrade.

RebelHill
04-05-2009, 04:13 AM
First impressions play a key with just about anything

and there in lies the problem... ur making judgements about a book based on the first page... A LOT of folks make snap judgements of things/people/etc based on first impressions, and its foolish.. its nothing but the habitual echo of a million yr old instinct that helped us to avoid disease and predators back in the day.

Its just a primitive way of thinking and looking at things.

colkai
04-05-2009, 05:09 AM
:lol: funny!

maybe they came from the angle of make sure it looks/behaves 'different' out of the gate so people are 100% SURE it's a new app from the ground up and not some tweek/hack to 9.6 with a u.i. skin on top...

You know, I think that is a very fair point and to be honest, it's one I was starting to come to myself.

Let's say we did get Core and oh looky, just like LW9.6 - how many then would of said "oh come on, where's the innovation? It's just a pretty-fied LW9.6"

By showing it's differences up front, it is making people are aware, this is NOT the LW you know. When the time comes, chances are, they will have a preset for it to behave like "Legacy LW" but it may (hopefully will) also have presets so users of other packages can dive right in.

Let's face it, there have been lots of moans about how unlike Maya / XSI it is, so if you can appeal to those folks so they can throw it into their pipeline with a minimum of fuss, why not make sure they know?

It's about showing the market times have changed, if we looked and felt just like the current version wit ha couple of new tools, given the clamour we always have at a LW release, I'm not sure people would even give it a second glance.

Not saying here that I was not one of those who felt, "OMG - where's my LW", but the more I play with Core, the more I realise, maybe that isn't such a bad thing after all.

Let's be honest, we know really it is likely to end up very 'wavey' and Jay has tried to make that point a few times, but more and more, I find myself thinking, yes, show how it's evolved first, so long as the customisation is available, there shouldn't be any losers in the end.

*Pete*
04-05-2009, 05:52 AM
But as Core is now, the difference between them is so huge, that for someone new it means having to learn two apps. That is quite a turn off, if you ask me. Wouldnīt it be better to make Core ( default navigation, shortcuts,etc.) as close to 9.6 as possible?

as i said, thats my concern as well and that is exactly why there is a discussion about it in the first place.

it all feels a bit unfamiliar to LW users and many things that we have done by instinct previously now need some thinking instead...you try to rotate the view and it wont work becouse you do it as you always used to do it, then you try it with the new way and you move the view instead of rotating it...its all becouse of us being unused to the navigation.

so i do agree with Larry about it...we are voicing our conserns about it and even if this way to navigate is standard, id prefer to have an option to do it the old LW way instead.

that said, its all in the early stages and for sure NT will listen to the userbase on this issue, and i would not be suprised at all if we get the best of both worlds...old LW style and the style(s) of other applications.

this can turn into a win/win thing...

the only turn of about the whole was to discover that the old LW way of doing things was not implemented first, but then again...mistakes are a part of evolution and can lead to a better product than if not mistakes would have been made.


now, none of these issues actually affect the other parts of CORE...when you load or build an object in CORE and push it up to millions of polys and everything responds completely and fully in real time, your heart softens and you are forgiving easier.

when you try instancing and build a wall of several instanced wall pieces..then you build a window in the original wall and see that the wall turns into a multistory house with windows...in realtime, you tend to forgive easier for the negatives about the navigation.

as i said..if NT would correct the navigation, for me (for LW users in general?) CORE would turn out to be a flawless application, perfect in power and ease of use, the same time as it is familiar enough to be the "old" LW.

Kuzey
04-05-2009, 06:55 AM
Mmmmm...so there is a dramatic change in the way navigation is done, I do love my shortcuts to zoom, rotate views etc without ever touching the widgets. If it's something as simple as reassigning shortcuts to 9.6 standard then it shouldn't be a problem. But, if it's all done through widgets only then that would slow the work flow down a lot.

Having an option would be great in that case.

Kuzey

IMI
04-05-2009, 07:23 AM
Mmmmm...so there is a dramatic change in the way navigation is done, I do love my shortcuts to zoom, rotate views etc without ever touching the widgets. If it's something as simple as reassigning shortcuts to 9.6 standard then it shouldn't be a problem. But, if it's all done through widgets only then that would slow the work flow down a lot.

Having an option would be great in that case.

Kuzey


I think he's saying it's more "industry standard", like Maya, with the alt key used with RMB, LMB and MMB on the mouse. Just a guess.
I would really prefer that actually, especially if we can use the scroll wheel to zoom. While trying the Maya and Mudbox demos, I really liked that navigation method more than LW's. I think Max is about the same but can't remember now.
But yeah, there should definitely be an option for "legacy" LW or the ability to assign whatever you want for navigation controls.

MooseDog
04-05-2009, 07:23 AM
Yes its early. The problem is that the baby doesnt look like the parents...

i want to be humble larry before your contributions to the lw community and the depth of your experience, but i have to ask "and that's a bad thing how?":)

i've read how you've explained at length exactly how it's not good, but imho there's as much personality in this statement as knowledge and use.

because for myself, that's an exciting proposition, and one i'm going to purchase into as soon as feasible. i love diving into the unknown and learning. it will be really cool to have even a minor voice in the development and direction of the software too.

no, it doesn't get my job done *today*, for that there's 9.6. there's a time and a place for everything so to speak.

thx again:thumbsup:

hrgiger
04-05-2009, 07:31 AM
Mmmmm...so there is a dramatic change in the way navigation is done, I do love my shortcuts to zoom, rotate views etc without ever touching the widgets.

Dramatic? I dont' think so. People are making some pretty sweeping statements on the future of CORE based on its first release. There's really nothing that dramatically different about it and there's nothing that difficult about it that it's going to take you more then a few hours to get used to. At first, it's like doing a tutorial off someone that uses different shortcut keys then the default ones. You're still going to be using a lot of the same functions in CORE that you did in Lightwave, and yes you might have to learn a few new ones because CORE in the end is going to bring you more options then older Lightwave did. And with more options comes a little more work on your part to use it to its full potential.
Personally, I find the navigation superior in CORE to older LW (although there are still a few things about it that will be added later). So I don't mind that, at least initially, it's a departure from the way we are used to doing it in Lightwave. If people spent as much time getting used to some new methods as they did complaining about it, there really wouldn't be much of an issue.

Kuzey
04-05-2009, 07:38 AM
I think he's saying it's more "industry standard", like Maya, with the alt key used with RMB, LMB and MMB on the mouse. Just a guess.
I would really prefer that actually, especially if we can use the scroll wheel to zoom. While trying the Maya and Mudbox demos, I really liked that navigation method more than LW's. I think Max is about the same but can't remember now.
But yeah, there should definitely be an option for "legacy" LW or the ability to assign whatever you want for navigation controls.

Ahh...I see, using one key pressed + mouse button, instead of up to 2 keys pressed + mouse button...depending on what you want to do in LW 9.6.

And I forgot about the scroll wheel...that would be great too. :D

Kuzey

SBowie
04-05-2009, 07:40 AM
Guys, with respect - I think on reflection you may agree that mention of previously unrevealed (by NewTek) specifics (perhaps especially things in early form and subject to change or additions anyway) falls outside things HC members should be discussing in public. It feels to me like this thread has reached and maybe tripped slightly over that boundary. I could be wrong, it's your decision - but you may want to consider this in light of guidelines.

Kuzey
04-05-2009, 07:44 AM
Dramatic? I dont' think so. People are making some pretty sweeping statements on the future of CORE based on its first release. There's really nothing that dramatically different about it and there's nothing that difficult about it that it's going to take you more then a few hours to get used to. At first, it's like doing a tutorial off someone that uses different shortcut keys then the default ones. You're still going to be using a lot of the same functions in CORE that you did in Lightwave, and yes you might have to learn a few new ones because CORE in the end is going to bring you more options then older Lightwave did. And with more options comes a little more work on your part to use it to its full potential.
Personally, I find the navigation superior in CORE to older LW (although there are still a few things about it that will be added later). So I don't mind that, at least initially, it's a departure from the way we are used to doing it in Lightwave. If people spent as much time getting used to some new methods as they did complaining about it, there really wouldn't be much of an issue.

Yeah..I was just going by what the general feeling seemed to be at this very early stage.

Thanks for the update...sounds interesting in a good way :D


Kuzey

IMI
04-05-2009, 07:46 AM
Guys, with respect - I think on reflection you may agree that mention of previously unrevealed (by NewTek) specifics (perhaps especially things in early form and subject to change or additions anyway) falls outside things HC members should be discussing in public. It feels to me like this thread has reached and maybe tripped slightly over that boundary. I could be wrong, it's your decision - but you may want to consider this in light of guidelines.

Oh come on man, don't be a spoil sport - let them talk. It's *very* interesting. :D

hrgiger
04-05-2009, 07:56 AM
Guys, with respect - I think on reflection you may agree that mention of previously unrevealed (by NewTek) specifics (perhaps especially things in early form and subject to change or additions anyway) falls outside things HC members should be discussing in public. It feels to me like this thread has reached and maybe tripped slightly over that boundary. I could be wrong, it's your decision - but you may want to consider this in light of guidelines.

Has somebody mentioned specifics, I may have missed it? I'm being intentionally vague.

Kuzey
04-05-2009, 08:01 AM
I feel the information is still too general at the moment and therefore safe :D

It's a new software...things are going to change and that would include navigation. As part of this beta process I hope Newtek are experimenting with ideas/features as they go forward...as it seems they are. It's the only way to see if an idea is good in practice and not just on paper, tweak here and there from the first implementation...to get it perfect or change direction altogether if it falls short etc.

These are good things :thumbsup:

Kuzey

*Pete*
04-05-2009, 08:30 AM
Has somebody mentioned specifics, I may have missed it? I'm being intentionally vague.

and im trying to stay within the specifics that Jay has released to the masses before, instancing and high poly counts for example, were carefully selected in my earlier post.

but SBowie does have a point, too...

if we have an argument in the open forums about "CORE ROCKS" vs "CORE SUCKS" we will for sure end up on thin ice when we start to discuss why it rocks or sucks...

soon someone will start posting details, bugs etc etc and then Jay will punish us all by removing even the current nav system and replacing it all with blender ui and navigation...or worse, ZBrush.

geo_n
04-05-2009, 08:40 AM
LOL! Lets just say that two norwegian looking parents arent going to have an african looking baby without a few eyebrows being raised in the process. :)
I agree that Core will do all kinds of things later. What I simply dont get
is why not release it feeling more like LW then something else? It probably
took more effort to do that then start us all on common, familiar ground.


:lol: funny!

maybe they came from the angle of make sure it looks/behaves 'different' out of the gate so people are 100% SURE it's a new app from the ground up and not some tweek/hack to 9.6 with a u.i. skin on top...

i really think you'll be much happier once the next build is out

This is just my guess but I think they are trying really hard to break into the standard way of doing things like in other appz. So this means not to make it similar to old lw workflow. It makes business sense to target those mainstream max, maya, xsi users to switch to core and say core is like what you're using but better, than catering to the existing lw base which I think we all agree are fewer in numbers.

I was surprised to see an outliner in core. I prefer max way of selection sets and layers.

Nicolas Jordan
04-05-2009, 09:13 AM
This is just my guess but I think they are trying really hard to break into the standard way of doing things like in other appz.

That is exactly the feeling I get. Looks like it might end up being a balance between industry standards and a Lightwave standard. That means getting rid of the cons for both and salvaging the pros. Maybe it will end up feeling like 3DS Max and Lightwave had a baby that will bring forth innovations as it matures and grows.

Ernest
04-05-2009, 09:33 AM
Has somebody mentioned specifics, I may have missed it? I'm being intentionally vague. *cough* "...just donīt touch that scroll wheel zoom....that is a dream come true." *cough* That was pretty specific, wasn't it?

radams
04-05-2009, 10:00 AM
Hi All,

Well, it's cool that Core has finally gotten started and out to the HC members.

But before this thread starts to go down with core's great or core sucks' etc..and the he said or not...or flaming...

May I make a suggestion and comment to all.

For those in the HC...you are basically the Beta team for NT on CORE.
It is easier to not comment on anything to do with CORE on the open forum...and only comment on it on the CORE section only....

Then once CORE is released - Q4...then you can open up about it.
Please take if from along time Beta Tester....

It's too easy to let things slip....even if it is to help someone or CORE.

Please HC members...just refrain from any comments on CORE...no matter how much the rest of us are asking begging...or being nasty about it.

For the rest of us...Please look to NT's release info....rather than to the forums...to get your info...and to not panic or get side tracked in regards to CORE....for those who want to get into HC...touch base with NT about it.

For the rest, please be patient all will be revealed later in the Q4...we're not going to change anything any ways...nor will you completely know what is or isn't in it...not even the HC members until the final release.

So in regards to the UI or workflows etc...Let the HC members chat with NT and each other...to help mold and shape it....

The rest of us...something that might help NT...let's start some other threads....
1) workflow...things we like or need and why.
2) Solutions.....what type of work do you do..and what are you needing to make and end to end solution...where are the bumps or issues you are faced with now...
3) where do you wish to see CORE go - in regards to solutions/workflow...
4) what specific features are you needing, why, an how would you like to see them work...(think simple not complex)...

Then we all can be a help to NT...and ourselves and everyone else here.

Just understant not to make any expectations that something that you or someone asked for will be implemented or implemented the way you wish...

But Giving this info to NT will help them plan for CORE's future.

Have a good day...and let's create some COOL Stuff :)

Cheers,

Ray Adams

CGI Addict
04-05-2009, 10:19 AM
Guys, with respect - I think on reflection you may agree that mention of previously unrevealed (by NewTek) specifics (perhaps especially things in early form and subject to change or additions anyway) falls outside things HC members should be discussing in public. It feels to me like this thread has reached and maybe tripped slightly over that boundary. I could be wrong, it's your decision - but you may want to consider this in light of guidelines.

Steve, trust me, as one who hasn't bought into membership yet, I'm just as unenlightened about CORE now as I was before reading this thread. The only hint to CORE I can pick up on is that it works for some and not for others at this stage.

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 10:41 AM
I realize Core will change and thats not the problem.
We are going to be using Core in conjunction with LW9 accorfding to NT for awhile. That being the case then why not make that transition back and forth as seamles/painless as possible? Theres absolutely no reason to make it look/feel/behave like anything else but what we already know and like about LW. Sure LW has shortcomings but the vast majority of those stem from lack of depth, lack of finished features but nost noteable not from its general workflow, Why change how one navigates? Why change the overall UI? Why change keyboard shortcuts etc?
Theres a difference between industry standards in terms of features like a history or modifier stack and the things I mentioned.
The bottom line for me is that if the standards set by Maya are so good then whats the point of going with Core? Yes weve seen the techsheets etc on Core and talk about innovation but theres lots of other companies who also are rapidly developing their apps and putting lots of innovation and not to mention money into them as well. If copying how those other apps do things is so important or desireable then why simply not go that route? Those aps already have a track record and are supported and one can get work using them. Its very easy to do. I have stuck with LW because of its advantages in several areas. When I see its successor coming out of the gate bearing little resemblance to what I have used successfully for years then I have to start thinking hard atout all this. Newtek could have picked any UI, navigation, hotkeys etc from the get go and it doesnt make sense to me that they went the way they did.

cresshead
04-05-2009, 10:45 AM
Hi All,

Well, it's cool that Core has finally gotten started and out to the HC members.

But before this thread starts to go down with core's great or core sucks' etc..and the he said or not...or flaming...

May I make a suggestion and comment to all.

For those in the HC...you are basically the Beta team for NT on CORE.
It is easier to not comment on anything to do with CORE on the open forum...and only comment on it on the CORE section only....


Cheers,

Ray Adams

:agree:

i've had to select text and delete some of my posts i was writing to...you have to put your 'public forum head' on and check that your not overstepping the mark...

one thing i can say is that the HC members over on the HC forums are very helpful to one another getting people up to speed on how core works , any issues with problems and creating custom bits for core .:thumbsup:

Sekhar
04-05-2009, 11:10 AM
Yes weve seen the techsheets etc on Core and talk about innovation but theres lots of other companies who also are rapidly developing their apps and putting lots of innovation and not to mention money into them as well. If copying how those other apps do things is so important or desireable then why simply not go that route? Those aps already have a track record and are supported and one can get work using them. Its very easy to do.

So, you're basically saying the competition is too strong, so why bother?

geo_n
04-05-2009, 11:20 AM
Why change how one navigates? Why change the overall UI? Why change keyboard shortcuts etc?


well I dont get that either. kb shortcuts have been the same in most appz with every iteration. T is not move, ctrl w is not weld, etc, I could imagine that would slow things a bit for me as well. The UI well.. I think modo is what I imagined what new lw should be. A modeller integrated with layout. Click a tab and the program changes its function, modeller, animation, render, but sharing the same general kb shortcuts. And all communicating with each other and have modelling animateable, etc.
Anyway I think you guys at hc forum should make your voices heard.

cresshead
04-05-2009, 11:26 AM
So, you're basically saying the competition is too strong, so why bother?

1. cost of purchase
2. number of render nodes
3. the companies who make 3d apps may not be to your liking [eula]
4. you prefer lightwave and would prefer to have a lightwave +[core] than a completely different app that has 'nothing whatsoever' of lightwaveness about it.core will/does have lightwave legacy things in it.
5. cost of upkeep
6. plugins...we hope to see lightwave plugin/scripts re created/improved in core.
7.lightwave renderer>will move and improve in core we all hope/expect
8.established networks of users>newtek forums>spinquad>kurvstudios.

just cos there's strong competition doesn mean you can't beat them...
take a look at Brawn F1 team...up against ferrari, toyota, renault...brawn gp were NOWHERE..and are only a few weeks old in reality...with a tiny budget...now look at them..1st 2 races they won...beat everyone out there....sorta like newtek sticking it to autodesk, luxology, maxon etc..

Lightwave Core can do it too with hard work and an inventive dev team.

RebelHill
04-05-2009, 11:27 AM
so.... let me get this straight...

the main complaint from the naysayers is that the buttons are a different shape and colour, and the kb shortcuts are different???

I guess if ur wives ever get a new outfit/hairdo/full hollywood they'll be served for divorce too...

ffs... I now vacate this thread and leave it to the morons.

radams
04-05-2009, 11:28 AM
I realize Core will change and thats not the problem.
We are going to be using Core in conjunction with LW9 accorfding to NT for awhile. That being the case then why not make that transition back and forth as seamles/painless as possible? Theres absolutely no reason to make it look/feel/behave like anything else but what we already know and like about LW. Sure LW has shortcomings but the vast majority of those stem from lack of depth, lack of finished features but nost noteable not from its general workflow, Why change how one navigates? Why change the overall UI? Why change keyboard shortcuts etc?
Theres a difference between industry standards in terms of features like a history or modifier stack and the things I mentioned.
The bottom line for me is that if the standards set by Maya are so good then whats the point of going with Core? Yes weve seen the techsheets etc on Core and talk about innovation but theres lots of other companies who also are rapidly developing their apps and putting lots of innovation and not to mention money into them as well. If copying how those other apps do things is so important or desireable then why simply not go that route? Those aps already have a track record and are supported and one can get work using them. Its very easy to do. I have stuck with LW because of its advantages in several areas. When I see its successor coming out of the gate bearing little resemblance to what I have used successfully for years then I have to start thinking hard atout all this. Newtek could have picked any UI, navigation, hotkeys etc from the get go and it doesnt make sense to me that they went the way they did.

Hi Larry,

You have some points...and ones that should and need to be heard...but placing this on the general forum isn't the area to do this in...at this time.

Please put this in the HC area...
and have a chat with Jay, Chuck etc...in regards to this...
but bringing this up in the general forum doesn't do anyone any good at this time.

I'm glad that you are in the HC...
Please bring your respected observations and trade true needs to bare there...
I know that many of us have gone thru lots of ups and downs...fighting for LW and ourselves...to make a living...
but I think your too close to the pain at the moment...
You may be completely right on all counts...but detach a little...and catch your breath.

You've been heard loud and clear out here in the General forum...
present this in a logical...positive manner in the HC...
saying excuse...but there are some issues that effect me...and most likely will effect most LWers and Pros out there.

Remember that sometimes coders...have this cool idea...but they don't do the day in and day out FXs or deal with the attitudes or time schedules we do...and all our needs & controls...but ones that are simple and not embedded or get in the way....

That is one of the other reasons Beta testng is good to help those brilliant programmers hear why we need something to work a certain way ..or what we need to see / workflow....etc...

Take Care...catch your breath.

Cheers,

Nemoid
04-05-2009, 11:32 AM
I realize Core will change and thats not the problem.
We are going to be using Core in conjunction with LW9 accorfding to NT for awhile. That being the case then why not make that transition back and forth as seamles/painless as possible? Theres absolutely no reason to make it look/feel/behave like anything else but what we already know and like about LW. Sure LW has shortcomings but the vast majority of those stem from lack of depth, lack of finished features but nost noteable not from its general workflow, Why change how one navigates? Why change the overall UI? Why change keyboard shortcuts etc?
Theres a difference between industry standards in terms of features like a history or modifier stack and the things I mentioned.
The bottom line for me is that if the standards set by Maya are so good then whats the point of going with Core? Yes weve seen the techsheets etc on Core and talk about innovation but theres lots of other companies who also are rapidly developing their apps and putting lots of innovation and not to mention money into them as well. If copying how those other apps do things is so important or desireable then why simply not go that route? Those aps already have a track record and are supported and one can get work using them. Its very easy to do. I have stuck with LW because of its advantages in several areas. When I see its successor coming out of the gate bearing little resemblance to what I have used successfully for years then I have to start thinking hard atout all this. Newtek could have picked any UI, navigation, hotkeys etc from the get go and it doesnt make sense to me that they went the way they did.

IMO, there are things into other apps which are useful and its good to be inspired by them when designing a new app.
This can be navigation style, manipulators and other things, and yes, even keyboard shortcuts (that one could always change to his hearth content i hope).it can be big or small things.
I don't think Newtek is gonna screw all good stuff within Lw's workflow in a way the app will not be recognizable from its old users, but only be inspired from what's good into other apps,allowing a good workflow while maintaining Lw strong points. :thumbsup:
So, i wouldn't fear so much about changes. The good point i got abou CORE is that the team wants to couple power with ease of use. Lw currently has ease of use in many of its parts, but problems given from its old core and also from separation between Modeler and Layout, which has always been a bottleneck in most cases. Now , they're putting all into a single environment, so, its natural that UI reflects some changements.
Also, i do think they'll allow for all sorts of UI layouts to suit everyone's need and workflow. Maybe someone will also emulate with CORE and Qt tools how LW works now...:)

hrgiger
04-05-2009, 11:42 AM
ffs... I now vacate this thread and leave it to the morons.

Well, that might have been a bit harsh. I get what Larry is saying about going back and forth between CORE and lightwave and having different methods do the same things. It makes sense. I guess I'm just looking at it differently. CORE is a completely new applicaiton and as such, I have no problem learning how things are done in CORE even if they differ drastically then how they are done in LW.
Another aspect to this is, it seems like very few people rely anymore on one single program to do everything anymore. It's not uncommon for people to use Lightwave with XSI, Max, Modo, Maya or any combination of them. I think this is where some standardization would be good. Larry asks why make it more like Max or Maya when they could be making it more like LW right out of the gate. I guess my thoughts are that old Lightwave has a limited time left. As soon as CORE brings all aspects of the program together, there's really not going to be much need for 9.6 anymore. It might be a year, it might be three, but the point is, why should we be trying to keep make CORE as close to old LW in methods, when perhaps we should be trying to make CORE accessible to everyone across the industry? Now that Newtek has created a unified and accessible program at a very competitive cost, it really has the chance for the first time be a real competitor to some of the other applications out there. Give something new, but give something that everyone can relate to. Keeping CORE as similar to old LW only appeases the LW user base. Are we trying to isolate ourselves already?

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 11:45 AM
So, you're basically saying the competition is too strong, so why bother?

Im saying that if Newtek thinks the competition is so strong/good/whatever then why should I bother?
The advantage that LW has always had is in being LW. If I wanted the industry standard way of doing things I could have always just purchased them over the years and be done with it. That would have been the safe thing to do. LWs unique way of doing things always gave me an edge over my competitors. Im not even sure, to be honest what standards theyre trying to adhere to because they all do t hings differently. Tinkring with the guts....go for it. Dont tinker with UI, navigation and so on until weve gotten used to the changes under the hood.
It feels to be more like a new team wanting to make its own mark rather then make something that was already great, far far greater. If this is LW Core, wheres the LW?

Appeasing your current user base isnt a gamble, its sure dollars. Appeasing other user bases is
the much bigger gamble and should be secondary. Other apps including blender have presets
to make other users feel more at home and gives THEM the opportunity to try the LW way of doing things.
Its also a way to introduce LW users to other lpresets as well. This is no different then LW having
its own standard setup but also including other configs like the studio ones. So while yes, Core is young
and fresh the initial release should have felt very much at home for the current customers.

Keeping the great LW workflow AND making Core powerful, flexible and competive are not mutually exclusive.

Sekhar
04-05-2009, 11:53 AM
just cos there's strong competition doesn mean you can't beat them...
take a look at Brawn F1 team...up against ferrari, toyota, renault...brawn gp were NOWHERE..and are only a few weeks old in reality...with a tiny budget...now look at them..1st 2 races they won...beat everyone out there....sorta like newtek sticking it to autodesk, luxology, maxon etc..

Lightwave Core can do it too with hard work and an inventive dev team.

Exactly, I'm not a fan of the "Be practical, aim low" attitude (I don't tell myself that and certainly I don't tell my son that). What NT needs now is a vote of confidence and support, and clearly they've earned it with 9.6.

geo_n
04-05-2009, 12:13 PM
so.... let me get this straight...

the main complaint from the naysayers is that the buttons are a different shape and colour, and the kb shortcuts are different???

I guess if ur wives ever get a new outfit/hairdo/full hollywood they'll be served for divorce too...

ffs... I now vacate this thread and leave it to the morons.


I have respect for your work. But really you compare your wife to lightwave? oh man :D
Is your wife expendable like a software like lightwave? kidding
If kb shortcut and workflow, gui changes too much why spend 100hours to learn it instead of learning a mainstream software like max, maya, xsi. More jobs there. That is not open to dispute in my country.
I'm not married to software, So I'm learning catrig in max now instead of investing time in learning alpha software. Hence i didn't buy into core. :D
I think some people actually went HC because they wanted to learn the app as early as possible, get the training videos, shape the software, etc. So it is relevant to know how a program works. Doesn't mean anybody is a moron at all. And I appreciate what Larry is generally saying about how core is doing right now without going into specifics. Again I didn't buy into core but it still makes non core users like me interested and that's good for newtek.

Sekhar
04-05-2009, 12:15 PM
Im saying that if Newtek thinks the competition is so strong/good/whatever then why should I bother?
The advantage that LW has always had is in being LW. If I wanted the industry standard way of doing things I could have always just purchased them over the years and be done with it. That would have been the safe thing to do. LWs unique way of doing things always gave me an edge over my competitors. Im not even sure, to be honest what standards theyre trying to adhere to because they all do t hings differently. Tinkring with the guts....go for it. Dont tinker with UI, navigation and so on until weve gotten used to the changes under the hood.
It feels to be more like a new team wanting to make its own mark rather then make something that was already great, far far greater. If this is LW Core, wheres the LW?

Appeasing your current user base isnt a gamble, its sure dollars. Appeasing other user bases is
the much bigger gamble and should be secondary. Other apps including blender have presets
to make other users feel more at home and gives THEM the opportunity to try the LW way of doing things.
Its also a way to introduce LW users to other lpresets as well. This is no different then LW having
its own standard setup but also including other configs like the studio ones. So while yes, Core is young
and fresh the initial release should have felt very much at home for the current customers.

Keeping the great LW workflow AND making Core powerful, flexible and competive are not mutually exclusive.

Larry, these are fair points, and it's clear you like the current LW interface. But others who use LW along with other products have pointed to shortcomings. The hope is that CORE will address those issues and take the best features of all. I'm sure the final release will be quite different than what you see now.

And looks like you're on HC, so you probably already started seeing some workflow comments - complaints AND praise. You can see where CORE is going to be better. And as we in HC understand the new interface better, the inevitable next step is to figure out how to make the transition easy, e.g. by keeping the same shortcuts.

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 12:18 PM
I think overall NT did some good things with 9.6 after making some big blunders like releasing LW broken in the first place. The decision to do that and release previous version of LW when they werent ready wasnt a good course either. Though what were talking about in this case is the difference between the development side of NT and the marketing side. No matter how good the Dev side may be its the marketing side that ultimately decides if the product does well in the market.
LW9 is still unstablel in production. FiberFX still doesnt work as it should. LW crashes on use everyday. Mostly for me it when Im using bones, particles and when texturing.

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 12:35 PM
I have respect for your work. But really you compare your wife to lightwave? oh man :D
Is your wife expendable like a software like lightwave? kidding
If kb shortcut and workflow, gui changes too much why spend 100hours to learn it instead of learning a mainstream software like max, maya, xsi. More jobs there. That is not open to dispute in my country.
I'm not married to software, So I'm learning catrig in max now instead of investing time in learning alpha software. Hence i didn't buy into core. :D

And thats exactly my point. We know that no workflow in any app is perfect. We all use LW because it apparently has more pluses going for it then negatives in its workflow. Most of the negatives are not from workflow but from limitations in its architecture.
And its not a matter of spending 100s of hours but spending that kind of time on something that wont be production ready IMO for years. At the same time those other mainstream apps are not standing still be are rapidly being developed also. Heck even Blender is moving ahead in leaps and bounds. It doesnt make sense to me to hobble yourself by changing the itnerface etc drastically immediately. It probably took more energy to make Core NON LW looking then the other way around.

Also, Theres a difference between a wife getting her hair done and a wife
gettign plastis surgery. :)

hrgiger
04-05-2009, 12:51 PM
Appeasing your current user base isnt a gamble, its sure dollars. Appeasing other user bases is
the much bigger gamble and should be secondary. Other apps including blender have presets
to make other users feel more at home and gives THEM the opportunity to try the LW way of doing things.
Its also a way to introduce LW users to other lpresets as well. This is no different then LW having
its own standard setup but also including other configs like the studio ones. So while yes, Core is young
and fresh the initial release should have felt very much at home for the current customers.



Well, if Newtek can deliver on the promise that the new architecture holds as well as an open SDK for development, I see no reason why most current LW users shouldn't be happy. I see having to learn some new shortcuts a small price to pay.
As far as the initial release, I'm rolling with it because I know so few things in it are final. Whether they go with a LW standard or an industry standard in the end has little relevence to me personally. I think customization is the key.

dballesg
04-05-2009, 12:52 PM
The problem is that the baby doesnt look like the parents.

Um so you want him blond and with blue eyes? Beard and glasses maybe?. We will be entering then on the "Digital Genetic Manipulation" field. And those are muddy waters you know it no?! :jester:

Nicolas Jordan
04-05-2009, 12:54 PM
It feels to be more like a new team wanting to make its own mark rather then make something that was already great, far far greater.


That is my only fear.

geothefaust
04-05-2009, 12:54 PM
Well, if Newtek can deliver on the promise that the new architecture holds as well as an open SDK for development, I see no reason why most current LW users shouldn't be happy. I see having to learn some new shortcuts a small price to pay.
As far as the initial release, I'm rolling with it because I know so few things in it are final. Whether they go with a LW standard or an industry standard in the end has little relevence to me personally. I think customization is the key.

Quoted for agreement. Customization is paramount. It makes all this whining and complaining from most in this thread, completely moot.

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 01:10 PM
Well, if Newtek can deliver on the promise that the new architecture holds as well as an open SDK for development, I see no reason why most current LW users shouldn't be happy. I see having to learn some new shortcuts a small price to pay.
As far as the initial release, I'm rolling with it because I know so few things in it are final. Whether they go with a LW standard or an industry standard in the end has little relevence to me personally. I think customization is the key.

Its a big IF. Im not worried about that at all. Any under the hood changes are probably better. If its going to evolve when start the evolution with something the major of users are somewhat familiar with. Common ground for current users who are probably vastly outnumbering people coming from other apps is the best place to start. Why make it more LW like later if people want rather then make it more LW like now and more like Maya, Max etc later? Like I said starting off Core in familar terriority on the surface is much less of a gamble then trying to woo ppl on to an untested alien interface.
Ive been digging into it and I see nothing better, just different (speaking of the interface).
I know for myself and others who depend upon LW to earn a living the interface is very important.
Few have time to keep having to learn something completelly different. Its a huge investment in time.
THe better I know how to navigate an application equates to dollars.
If it doesnt matter to you which sort of interface they go with then it wouldnt mattter to you if the initial
interface is LW, For me and others it matters very much. So going with it would be a win win.

IMI
04-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Just for the sake of putting my own 2 cents in, I'm not thrilled with the looks of the new interface either. From what little I've seen that is, which is as much as any other non-HC member has seen.

But I figure, what the hell, rolll with the punches and all that. Bring it on, I'm not afraid. I spent a month intensely studying Maya's interface with the demo, and although the first few days were rough, suddenly it clicked and I was actually able to do stuff. I'm not a pro, but I suppose if I were, it would have been that much more important to get a handle on it quickly.

Of course I'm thrilled with the idea that CORE evidently has more "normal" navigation controls, but that's not gonna make it or break it for me.

But I do think that while they're at it they should seriously consider working as much interface customization into it as possible, *along with* the ability to save out entire CFG files reflecting various work spaces, navigation controls, menus, keys, yada yada yada.

radams
04-05-2009, 01:26 PM
HELLO !!!!

Larry, and all, I think you've made your points.
Please take this to the HC section...

or at least a make a new thread...stating what you are talking about.

This has little to do with Jay's interview.

Let's help to stop the out of control forums...and improve the real communications and support.

Thanks for your consideration...and your support.

Cheers,

Ray Adams

Cohen
04-05-2009, 01:32 PM
I'm not thrilled with the looks of the new interface either.

The defualt interface is a work in porgress, do give it time. I made a nice one if you would like, posted in the interface/ui section called Lithifield. Take a look, 4th post down, revision 2. I've recieve nothing but good comments. :)

Cohen
04-05-2009, 01:33 PM
Personally, I find the navigation superior in CORE to older LW

:agree:

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 01:33 PM
Ray Ive made my views crystal clear in the proper places.
I cant see anything that anyones divulged here thats not already in the interview, videos or screen captures that NT has released.

Imi,
One thing I hope to see is the ability to load in configs for keyboard shortcuts etc from LW9.

IMI
04-05-2009, 01:34 PM
The defualt interface is a work in porgress, do give it time. I made a nice one if you would like, posted in the interface/ui section called Lithifield. Take a look, 4th post down, revision 2. I've recieve nothing but good comments. :)

If that's a HC forum thing, I'm not a member.
But I think it's that damn lime green dragon that really bugs me - burned forever into my retinas. ;)

IMI
04-05-2009, 01:37 PM
Imi,
One thing I hope to see is the ability to load in configs for keyboard shortcuts etc from LW9.

Yeah, do me a favor and PUSH for that, PLEASE! I've already requested other HC people to insist on that. Having to rebuild all the menus and keys after a CFG disaster or a new release sucks and the ability to save all that out as separate files is a huge plus.

jin choung
04-05-2009, 03:00 PM
f legacy.

lw did a lot of things badly and was klunky and kludgey in all kinds of ways. and this is not just the opinion of those who are blind and can be set free from their scale eyes by a simple demo.

f legacy.

now is the time to cut the chains that held lw back. to do things not for the sake of SIMILARITY... f similarity. do things for the sake of BETTER.

discussions can be had about whether something is actually better. that's a good issue. maintaining similarity is not.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there has been some generalizations about how and why people seek change in lw. so i'll make some generalizations too:

there is always resistance to change. and some of the grumblings here are nothing but that. the manifestation of resistance to change.

go to any blender forum and talk about changing their legitimately godawful interface and lo and behold, you end up provoking a lot of blenderheads who can't see past their own noses and who will defend the current interface to the death.

it's ALWAYS like that.

PEOPLE STICK TO WHAT THEY KNOW. what they've grown accustomed to.

not because it's better. they rationalize "better" in most cases starting from the fact that they know it. they cling to it because they know it.

but as in all things in life, CHANGE IS NOT NEGOTIABLE.

"adapt or die" is a mantra in all of life and ESPECIALLY in technology related fields. nothing stands still and lives.

i for one am very pleased that lw is seeking to MOVE.

jin

hrgiger
04-05-2009, 03:07 PM
PEOPLE STICK TO WHAT THEY KNOW. what they've grown accustomed to.

not because it's better. they rationalize "better" in most cases starting from the fact that they know it. they cling to it because they know it.

i for one am very pleased that lw is seeking to MOVE.

jin

:boogiedow Go Jin Go.

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 03:16 PM
For every one of your points there is the opposite view.
There is resistance to change vs change for simply the sake of change.
People stick to what they know.
People also go for every new fad.
LWs inteface is simply, easy and efficient...all things good for production work.
Nobody has proven that Core is or will be better. ATM its only different.
One of the best VFX supervisors I had years ago said to make sure that then you change something
that it is better and not simply different. Those of us who chose LW and its workflow because we feel its better.
Im willing to bet you use things whos interface has changed very little over the years...why? because they work.
The underlying technology may have changed but the way we use it hasnt changed. Theres nothing wrong with keeping a good way of doing things the same and improving the bad.
LW users consistently have stayed with LW over the years because it still does allow the artist to get things done quickly, efficiently and at a high quality.
Adaptation is fine when its really needed but change just to be different or simply for the sake of change is a fad.
Ive been working in this business for a very very long time. IN that time the day to day 3d work has actualy not changed much except that clients demand more to be done in a shorter period of time and at a higher quality....in short areas where LW has always been strong. If changes are to be made then make sure it fits within that ethic.

hrgiger
04-05-2009, 03:34 PM
At the same time, many people have left and quit using LW because it hasn't changed. Just a counterpoint to your counterpoint.

jin choung
04-05-2009, 04:10 PM
For every one of your points there is the opposite view.

no there's not. change is non-negotiable. inevitable.


There is resistance to change vs change for simply the sake of change.
People stick to what they know.
People also go for every new fad.

as i said, the question about BETTER or NOT BETTER is valid.

an emphasis on remaining the same is NOT.

BETTER may indeed be staying the same. fine. but the emphasis SHOULD NEVER BE ON STAYING THE SAME. the emphasis should be on better.

for some reason, you seem to think that the new design team has no ability to determine what better is. your prerogative. but i'm willing to give them a shot.

and hell, EVEN THE ORIGINAL AUTHORS OF LW when given an opportunity to rewrite a 3d app in MODO chose to do something DIFFERENT and advocate their changes.

THAT'S TELLING.


LWs inteface is simply, easy and efficient...

not in all things for all tasks. in many tasks, it pales in comparison to the workflow of other apps.


Adaptation is fine when its really needed but change just to be different or simply for the sake of change is a fad.

then evolution is a fad. random mutations occur that change organisms ARBITRARILY - most time to their detriment or even death. there is no design to this change. it just changes. but through the process of cycle after cycle of random change, stronger ones end up surviving - changing the organism for the better in the long run.

i'm not a fan of change for change sake either. but EVEN THAT - at the hands of pitiless blind luck - has its uses. and can be arguably preferable to stagnation.


except that clients demand more to be done in a shorter period of time and at a higher quality....in short areas where LW has always been strong. If changes are to be made then make sure it fits within that ethic.

i disagree cCOMPLETELY that lw is so strong in the areas you speak of. in very large productions, i can see things bogging down very quickly especially in comparison to the openness and flexibility of other systems.

but clients DO demand more for less. and this is all becoming an issue of COMPLEXITY MANAGEMENT for all the 3d apps.

this is something that NO APP does extremely well imo. everyone is used to doing less with less. but as you've noted the future is about MORE AND MORE AND MORE COMPLEXITY.

lw is NOT well suited now to deal with that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anyhoo, this ship has already sailed.

this is NOT a revision.

this is a TOTAL TEARDOWN.

and in that, i am heartened because NOTHING IS LEGACY to begin with. that means that if they're gonna put something old BACK IN, it's not going to be a matter of INERTIA. they're going to have to THINK ABOUT IT and justify it in the context of a brand NEW environment.

it seems like one way or another - you're gonna have to adapt to not insignificant change.

or just stick with 9.6 into perpetuity which is an option.

jin

Cageman
04-05-2009, 04:35 PM
LW users consistently have stayed with LW over the years because it still does allow the artist to get things done quickly, efficiently and at a high quality.

I wouldn't use LW at work if it wasn't for Nodal displacements and DPKit + Node Item Motion (nodebased motionmodifier). Those concepts alone, opened many doors to things that previously were either very hard or impossible to do prior to those developements (in LW that is). Though, I havn't seen anything in Maya that offers the same simple workflow (nodebased, animated displacements) with similar felxibility (if you add DPKit to the mix). XSI ICE is the closest thing I've seen, but that is something I havn't access to at work.

My point though... In LW-world, nodebased workflows are still quite fresh, and it would benefit everyone if this workflow was adopted by more users, especially regarding shading/rendering. I believe that it is the future for shading/rendering in CORE...

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 04:46 PM
Have people left LW because of the interface of because it lacked the depth, flexibility or ability to exchange data seamlessly with other apps? Most of the people I know who left did so not because of LWs workflow but because of one or more of the last things I mentioned.

Jin, nobody is advocating that LW not change. Obviously it needs to. The techsheet looked wonderful, glad theyre doing it. My only beef so far is that were supposed to use Core in conjunction with LW 9 for quite a while to come. That being the case then Core should come out of the starting gate at least with the same level of familiarity that were used to. We know Core is going to change later as the new architecture is brought online and new things added. Again thats a ways down the road. So if its not so important what it looks like in the beginning as we all realize it will change then why not make it start off with something we understand and are familiar with now rather then something alien thats only going to become more alien anyways? Make that back and forth between in and LW9 as seamless as can be for now and as familiar as possible for now to encourage more people to get their feet wet.
Have you ponied up for Core yet BTW or still waiting to put your money where your mouth is?

jin choung
04-05-2009, 04:48 PM
and again, i revive this article because it is always so so relevant - how subjective familiarity gets in the way of objective evaluations of actual quality when it comes to user interfaces:

http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2007/06/product-loyalty-consumers-mistake-familiarity-with-superiority.ars

"we're generally convinced that whatever we're familiar with is the best."

jin

jin choung
04-05-2009, 04:54 PM
Have you ponied up for Core yet BTW or still waiting to put your money where your mouth is?

i thought i made it very clear in several threads that i am DECIDEDLY not hard core.

my money goes to where it would benefit ME best.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

as for all the rest - yeah, that "partnership" with 9.6 is a weakness, a flaw and a crutch to make up for a product that will likely not be "complete" for a while.

it ENDANGERS innovation because of the link to legacy and that is not good in any sense.

disjointed or not, it is best they make the clean break that is necessary and not tie one arm behind its back.

xsi was complemented initially with the last version of si but they didn't take great pains to maintain any kind of continuity. it was just a short term solution to an initial weakness.

i would be pleased as punch if that's the route newtek took.

jin

Cageman
04-05-2009, 04:57 PM
My only beef so far is that were supposed to use Core in conjunction with LW 9 for quite a while to come. That being the case then Core should come out of the starting gate at least with the same level of familiarity that were used to.

Larry,

If this is regarding navigation, I'm quite sure that it will be a easy fix for NT. If not, then you are very unfamiliar with other apps and what makes them good.

I suggest you take a look at ALL the videos that cresshead did to cover tools and functionality in the HC-forums. I learned ALOT by looking at them...

Talking about cresshead...

cresshead, HUGE, HUGE kudos to you! Your experience with alot of the other applications really made you understand those tools so fast! Even better is that you shared your experience! True LW-spirit (sharing knowledge).

Once again... THANKS! :)

CORE is certanly on the right track... that's a given (the more I use it, the more I like it).

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 05:16 PM
Well Jin then why bother posting. Easy to talk when you have zero invested.

Cageman,
Cresses videos are nice. My point is that if the UI is going to be in state of flux then it would have been just as easy to make it something familiar ESPECIALLY since we have to rely on the back and forth with LW9.

jin choung
04-05-2009, 05:20 PM
Well Jin then why bother posting.

because i feel like it.

if you only wanted the opinions of the hallowed elite of the hard core, why don't you wax tedious in the HC forums?

and because though i'm not invested now, i want it to become something i WANT to buy. that being said, i think that you do suffer the cognitive blinder that is described in the ars technica article and so i am seeking to offer an alternative POV that doesn't enslave us unnecessarily to the past.

jin

jin choung
04-05-2009, 05:25 PM
My point is that if the UI is going to be in state of flux then it would have been just as easy to make it something familiar ESPECIALLY since we have to rely on the back and forth with LW9.

i suspect you are familiar with the concept of INERTIA.

if you make something "for the time being"... there's a good probability that it will STAY THAT WAY.

that being the case, an emphasis on aiming for GOOD AND FITTING IN NEW CONTEXT right now is better than any attempt at continuity.

f legacy.

jin

Cageman
04-05-2009, 05:44 PM
as for all the rest - yeah, that "partnership" with 9.6 is a weakness, a flaw and a crutch to make up for a product that will likely not be "complete" for a while.

it ENDANGERS innovation because of the link to legacy and that is not good in any sense.

Jin,

That does indeed depend on what LW9.6 will be used for, and what tools will be developed to streamline this pipeline. We can all agree that LW9.6 renderer is a very good one... so...

IF (a big IF) it is used for rendering (and pretty much rendering exclusively), I don't see a HUGE problem, since I believe an MDD-cache writer for CORE is a pretty trivial task to do in comparsion.

IF (again...a big IF) LW9.6 is going to be used for animation and rendering, I can see (well, let me imagine and dream here, ok?) a workflow where a low poly cage is animated in LW9.6, MDD cached to CORE, in CORE, this low poly cage (with the MDD) is driving a denser object at much greater speed compared to LW9.6. This highpoly object (not to high since you have to render in LW9.6) is baked to an MDD and then transfered to LW9.6 for rendering.

What about deformation control on the high-poly object in CORE?

Well, Jay has said in many threads that animation WILL be avaliable in CORE v1.0 (Q4 release); what has not been said yet is what will be supported regarding animation. My guess here is that deformers will be animatable, and as such, an object deformed by a cage could also have other deformes that would allow for correcting deformations before exporting to LW9.6 for rendering.

ALOT (if not even the most) of what I've written in this post are speculations based on some solid facts. I can be totaly right, or I can be totaly wrong, but the facts that have been officially avaliable for some time are true.

:)

Ernest
04-05-2009, 05:46 PM
I think that's what they meant when they said HC members would have updates to 9.6 beyond bug fixes. It's probably not new features since HC members would prefer that time devoted to new features in Core. So it must mean that Core will ship with a 9.7 or 10.0 version of Lightwave that will be 9.6 but with Core's shortcuts and navigation.

lwanmtr
04-05-2009, 05:54 PM
It feels to be more like a new team wanting to make its own mark rather then make something that was already great, far far greater. If this is LW Core, wheres the LW?


It may be a combination of both...The old code was just that...old..The new team had to literally figure it out because the old team left a frickin mess.
LW has been falling behind for a long time from broken features and inneficient code, so why wouldnt the new team want to simply build a new code base?

Also remember that Chuck has been with NT a long time, so I imagine he's gonna be trying to make sure that certain that worked in lw will remain in core. He did mention that the things we liked in lw will still be there, we're just getting a platform in which to use those.

I've had my thoughts about workflow and concerns..like the wdget thing..dont want 'em myself, but as long as we can disable them, I dont mind..same with the stack and such....but I will also experiment with all that new stuff and see what I can use :)

Change is inevitable and needed....but if they are indeed listening to the folks in hardcore, then I think your fears will be less than you think by the time 1.0 is actually shipping.

But, again..Core is basically in alpha atm, so is it not kinda pointless to be stressing over it?

sllink
04-05-2009, 05:57 PM
Hi Larry and Jin,

Thanks for your comments and post I always pay attention when either of you post. I dont think either of your comments are that far apart from each other. Now my only concern is that Jin is not in HC to help drive this product with his recommendations and suggestions.(Jin please help) My other concern is we can have the best developers out there but if they dont use the product in a production pipeline and are just developers, well do I need to say more. (Larry please help)

Jin if I could, would you say that when you say f legacy you mean f legacy as long as its better? In other words like Larry said no change for change sake but no f legacy for f legacy sake but for better? Am I completely missing your meaning?

Thanks guys for the information. Im not HC. I'm counting on guys like the both of you to get HC to what it should be or what we all wanted LW to be from the ground up. My concerns are time. If it took Modo this amount of time to get to where it is I can probably save enough money to buy Core at full price by the time it is a fully vetted product... (fingers crossed)

Thanks again!

Larry if you ever find youself in the DC/Va area dont get lost :)

AbnRanger
04-05-2009, 07:09 PM
...My point is that if the UI is going to be in state of flux then it would have been just as easy to make it something familiar ESPECIALLY since we have to rely on the back and forth with LW9.Actually, Larry, they don't intend for you to rely on CORE for production AT ALL, until it's a finished product...naturally.

This was kind of my beef with Newtek...using clever marketing jargon/spin (taking full advantage of the LW communities thirst for something new) to convince folks to PAY to be an Alpha tester....
1) "but you'll GET TO...help shape the direction of development."
2) "but you'll GET TO...play with the first builds."

uh...Newtek, how is that offering anything different than past alpha testing? Those testers had no input? They didn't get their "hands on the first few builds?" I realize that Newtek needed some resources to help fund development, but when has that not been the case, and when did selling rights to be an alpha tester become ethical let alone fashionable?

The difference is that they have been able to convince quite a few folks to pay them today for what is currently vaporware, and a year from now...when it's still less than 1/3 finished, they will get a price break on what will STILL be vaporware in it's Alpha stages. What a deal, huh?! Hey, but that experimental/alpha product will be yours to keep, right?
Reminds me of Jeff Foxworthy's redneck joke..."just 3 more payments and this here tattoo is all mine!" :D

I think your frustration Larry, is more about having to remain stuck with 9.6 for 2 or more years, for production purposes, compounded by the fact that in order to see any improvement, you have to learn something rather foreign-looking to you, which is nowhere close to being a finished product. Can't blame you for that.

CORE looks promising...just not anytime soon.

cresshead
04-05-2009, 07:41 PM
I suggest you take a look at ALL the videos that cresshead did to cover tools and functionality in the HC-forums. I learned ALOT by looking at them...

Talking about cresshead...

cresshead, HUGE, HUGE kudos to you! Your experience with alot of the other applications really made you understand those tools so fast! Even better is that you shared your experience! True LW-spirit (sharing knowledge).

Once again... THANKS! :)

.

no problemo! :thumbsup:

after waiting for some CORE videos for so long i thought..hey make 'em yourself now you've got core..so went thru nr every button and made a vid on it!

i think i covered most of core 0.01 by now...so anyone on the fence and wondering if learning core will be a struggle...well 30+vids and growing to watch and throw biccies at your monitor!

:beta:

IMI
04-05-2009, 07:53 PM
i think i covered most of core 0.01 by now...so anyone on the fence and wondering if learning core will be a struggle...well 30+vids and growing to watch and throw biccies at your monitor!

:beta:

I need more convincing. Let's see them! :hey:

cresshead
04-05-2009, 08:08 PM
I need more convincing. Let's see them! :hey:

if only i could!:)

jin choung
04-05-2009, 08:25 PM
Jin,

That does indeed depend on what LW9.6 will be used for, and what tools will be developed to streamline this pipeline. We can all agree that LW9.6 renderer is a very good one... so...

right.

i'm just countering the contention that efforts should be made to make CORE somehow more "lightwavey".

THAT, imo is exactly the wrong thing to do.

we have a fresh start. let's use that and not let in anything that's not good or even BETTER than what was.

if what was is the pinnacle of achievement (no... not possible. everything can be improved upon but for the sake of argument...) then let it back in.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

having 9.6 as a complementary app that is ITSELF adjusted to suit core is fine. and i have no problem with allowing core the run up time to get up to speed and so NEED a complementary app.

my problem was always what seemed to me to be fancy footwork with the sales pitch and language bs but i have no problem with slow and steady in terms of dev time.

jin

jasonwestmas
04-05-2009, 08:45 PM
right.

i'm just countering the contention that efforts should be made to make CORE somehow more "lightwavey".

THAT, imo is exactly the wrong thing to do.

we have a fresh start. let's use that and not let in anything that's not good or even BETTER than what was.

if what was is the pinnacle of achievement (no... not possible. everything can be improved upon but for the sake of argument...) then let it back in.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

having 9.6 as a complementary app that is ITSELF adjusted to suit core is fine. and i have no problem with allowing core the run up time to get up to speed and so NEED a complementary app.

my problem was always what seemed to me to be fancy footwork with the sales pitch and language bs but i have no problem with slow and steady in terms of dev time.

jin

There's a lot of rendering stuff to LW9 that will be ported over to Core just because it is the latest and greatest code that the NT team has created that is actually being used in the real world. That was reinforced by the interview with Jay. So to use that part of LW isn't a disadvantage. I really, really don't think that anything "Legacy" is intended to be used with Core. That older limiting stuff just bums people out I would think.

jin choung
04-05-2009, 08:52 PM
Jin if I could, would you say that when you say f legacy you mean f legacy as long as its better? In other words like Larry said no change for change sake but no f legacy for f legacy sake but for better?

right.

but the issue is - what is perceived as NEEDING CHANGE?

i get the feeling that larry feels like a LOT of lw is just the bees knees. why f with perfection? he likes it the way it is and he wants core to be LARGELY THE SAME. and that's a fine opinion for him to have. but it's not one that i would prefer be in the forefront of the developer's minds as they go forward.

there is a TREMENDOUS and irreconcilable disparity between his take on the status of lw and mine.

lw has legitimate strengths like its easy, un/less-mediated access to the mesh in modeling. but i see tremendously kludgey, UNDESIGNED, inconsistent, bolted on patchwork all over the app too.

sure - it may be true that we BOTH agree that "change for change's sake" is not desirable but that still leaves us at opposite ends of the change spectrum that can't be glossed over. it is a genuine difference of opinion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my position is HAVE NO ATTACHMENT TO THE PAST. no legacy for legacy's sake.

EVERY feature, every decision - ask, "is this the best, optimal, ideal way to do this?" if the answer is yes, sure, put it back in.

BUT UNDERSTAND: NOTHING IS PERFECT. EVERYTHING CAN BE MADE BETTER. in EVERY small, niggling, detail - not in generalities and platitudes but concrete, brass tacks, nitty gritty reality.

lw is NOT perfect. lw's interface is NOT perfect.

so FORGET about the consideration of "keeping things the same". f legacy.

the PRIME CONSIDERATION should be - is this GOOD, BETTER, BEST?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

finally, i say f legacy because legacy is a b1tch.

once things start getting nailed down, once the momentum and inertia of a large code base starts steam rolling down in the direction it's pointed, it is VERY DIFFICULT TO CHANGE COURSE just from the complexity and sheer MASS of the infrastructure.

that being the case, the very last thing we need is to look BACK! we need to look at today's needs and more than that even, TOMORROWS!

maya was rewritten from power animator. how long has that infrastructure carried alias/autodesk forward now? and xsi? heck, even blender? a decade? more?

whatever you put in place today will reward or haunt you for many many many many many years to come. and can only be truly, fundamentally changed at great pain and expense. something that i would imagine newtek understands quite well now.

so for heaven's sake, let's all f legacy like it's a hot chick going out of style and leave that behind as a consideration. focus instead on raw, unadulterated MERIT.

newtek has an opportunity right now that they may never ever get again - a chance to really put their thumbprints on the direction of a NEW 3d product! i just hope they don't squander it by looking back.

jin

jin choung
04-05-2009, 09:00 PM
There's a lot of rendering stuff to LW9 that will be ported over to Core just because it is the latest and greatest code that the NT team has created that is actually being used in the real world.


and that's totally fine. especially since there are a lot of 3rd party renderers out their (including fprime), i kinda look at renderers as an externalized black boxed object anyway. and especially with the advent of (extraordinary) rendition (hehe), i have every confidence that that is what they did.

as long as it's got all the hooks that lw needs to do its voodoo, i'm sure it'll be fine.

i've never had a problem with lw's renderer (except for shadow map control).

but there's a lot of sexy tech out there that allows for real time feedback through the native render engine (fprime, modo) as well as through advances in real time tech like opengl and directx (well hello, just in time to make my point: http://www.blendernation.com/2009/04/05/advanced-glsl-2d-filters/ ).

i just hope they have an awareness and a response to this relatively new desire for immediate gratification in rendering.

jin

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 09:42 PM
because i feel like it.

if you only wanted the opinions of the hallowed elite of the hard core, why don't you wax tedious in the HC forums?

and because though i'm not invested now, i want it to become something i WANT to buy. that being said, i think that you do suffer the cognitive blinder that is described in the ars technica article and so i am seeking to offer an alternative POV that doesn't enslave us unnecessarily to the past.

jin

While I thnk you suffer from diarrea of the mouth....what many would call 'loving to hear the sound of their own voice'

Otherwise youd put up the money, join Core and have a proper say instead of ranting like a spoiled child whole feels left out and has to piss and moan about it. You toss a lot of dust but in the end theres nothing to show.

geo_n
04-05-2009, 09:45 PM
Baaah.. I still dont get why they would change the fundamentals. Kb shortcuts, navigation, etc. Sure you can change them to work similar to old lw or make it even look like blender gui :help: but I'm sure most training material will be based on default preference for an app.
If its one thing you guys can agree on is that if its not better than the standard out there, don't change it for the sake of changing.
Just ADD cool stuff like fumefx like effects, improved character stuff, vray,finalrender quality and speed, better hair, better dynamics, etc. Core will be absolutely great!!

jin choung
04-05-2009, 09:53 PM
Otherwise youd put up the money, join Core and have a proper say instead of ranting like a spoiled child whole feels left out and has to piss and moan about it. You toss a lot of dust but in the end theres nothing to show.


haha.

very amusing!

jin

Yamba
04-05-2009, 10:07 PM
While I thnk you suffer from diarrea of the mouth....what many would call 'loving to hear the sound of their own voice'

Otherwise youd put up the money, join Core and have a proper say instead of ranting like a spoiled child whole feels left out and has to piss and moan about it. You toss a lot of dust but in the end theres nothing to show.
Touche!


haha.

very amusing!

jin

followed by the shortest response from Jin ever.

C'mon Jin join in the mix, there's plenty to say over in HC and you've certainly got a plenty to say.;)

Shane

CGI Addict
04-05-2009, 10:09 PM
Otherwise youd put up the money ...

Larry with all due respect, deciding not to buy into a product is in itself voicing an equally pointed opinion. One doesn't buy into something in order to say it sucks or it's a pain, etc. That'd be idiotic to say the very least. So those of us who've not jumped on board can and should be allowed to make our opinions heard we just can't make them where it probably counts the most ...HC forum, why, because we didn't pay the cover charge.

And so we're locked out and have to make due with the public forums where we have the right to speculate, debate, whatever it is about CORE. I hear you with regard to CORE not being to your fancy, that's a fair gripe as Jay has said both in print and video that LW users would feel very at home with how CORE functions. So far it doesn't seem true. Is that a bad thing, not in my opinion, like Jin said, moving towards what's better is more important.

I respect your comments as well as Jin's and others. The only thing I get bothered about is how childish the comments can get. We're all professionals or at least adults so as hot as these topics get we should maintain some form of respect with each other.

SplineGod
04-05-2009, 10:24 PM
Core doesnt completely tickle my fancy no. I joined so that it will at some point do that. Jin kicks up more crap about HC then everyone else left out combined. You would think he would either STFU or go out and collect a few beer cans, have a bake sale or something to to have a say rather then trying to peak over the fence and start his oral diarrea all over again.
Others seem to be able to express themselves in a reasonable way for the right reasons while Jin is simply an attention seeker... no more no less. Unless Im mistaken Jins usually the first to bring things down which Im pointing out. Its funny because Jin is very quiet and polite in person but somehow the anonymity that the internet provides seems to enable some people to act like children. Its kind of scarey actually.

cresshead
04-05-2009, 10:27 PM
haha.

very amusing!

jin

Jin, would like to see you join HC at some point soon:thumbsup:

being on the outside, unable to look in on core or use it means you have a very limited perception of exactly "what" CORE is like and where it's heading..

MooseDog
04-05-2009, 10:36 PM
oh cool! a pissing match :)

i got some tostitos (touch of lime!) and cold miller. ~dog settles in, finger on the f5.

jin choung
04-05-2009, 10:46 PM
Core doesnt completely tickle my fancy no. I joined so that it will at some point do that. Jin kicks up more crap about HC then everyone else left out combined. You would think he would either STFU or go out and collect a few beer cans, have a bake sale or something to to have a say rather then trying to peak over the fence and start his oral diarrea all over again.
Others seem to be able to express themselves in a reasonable way for the right reasons while Jin is simply an attention seeker... no more no less. Unless Im mistaken Jins usually the first to bring things down which Im pointing out. Its funny because Jin is very quiet and polite in person but somehow the anonymity that the internet provides seems to enable some people to act like children. Its kind of scarey actually.

again what anonymity? you've met me. what "anonymity" am i exploiting here? i think you don't understand the word. i think you need to look it up. i think you heard your friends talking about something in particular or maybe saw something on the news and you're misusing the concept rather badly.

in any case, it's always amusing when the words fail you and you resort to name calling and character assassination. can't defend your position and wtf, people aren't kowtowing to your every word (!!!) and you just can't handle it.

tsk tsk.

and i "bring down" the things you say because i don't agree with you. evidently, your ability to tolerate a difference of opinion is as refined as your ability to objectively judge lw's strengths and weaknesses.

finally, i'm being polite now.

for every crude barb you toss at me, i have wit and words enough to really tuck into you. do you doubt me? others (including the mods) don't.

but i refrain.

so try to grow up a little and either debate the topic or concede to a superior position gracefully.

jin

jin choung
04-05-2009, 10:51 PM
being on the outside, unable to look in on core or use it means you have a very limited perception of exactly "what" CORE is like and where it's heading..

thanks cress.

and it's true - i have no idea what's going on with core aside from the vids and the website.

but inasmuch as people speak in generalities about the direction, especially, PROPOSED direction, that is contrary to the current direction (whatever it may be), then i have room enough to jump in and say, hey that's a dumb idea and have it be completely valid.

anyway, i'm fine being on the outside looking in. i'm not at all enamored with the idea of paying for the privelege of helping (for cryin' out loud) or even, on principle, paying to have my voice heard.

but it's gratifying that much of the current direction is along the lines of what i've advocated for in the past (not taking credit - there are limits even to my own megalomania - let's just call it a convenient and agreeable coincidence) and now that there's a new product, it's refreshing to see that some of the criticisms that i've leveled against lw in the past are finally being copped to and hopefully will be addressed in CORE.

yeah, i'm just fine being on the shore and screaming obscenity laden instructions as the ship navigates.

jin

jin choung
04-05-2009, 11:07 PM
aw shucks,

thanks meg. but fear not. i have an unwavering confidence that i will be able to influence the direction of core by sheer ego alone.

jin

04-05-2009, 11:10 PM
Goading him into buying a core membership kinda defeats the purpose of his decision to not buy into the hype. I get the impression that the majority of people who bought in were already die hard LW fans. Personally, being surrounded by a group like that is exactly why I didn't want to join. Not only would it make you an outsider still for trying to push the product development beyond what it is now, you'd probably get drowned out in all the fanboy noise, just like it has always been around here. One way of looking at it is why would I want to pay 400 bucks for that priveledge when it is available for free right here in the general forums?

Newtek has a lot to prove with this release. For me, and others who moved away from LW over the last few years, this has been too long in the making. Handing over money just on faith won't ease any doubts we have about the future of this product at this point. It really has come down to "show me what you have first and I'll decide if it's worth it".

But that should not mean you have to shut up about where you think core development needs to go. Those in the HC membership are just going to have to live with this reality. Some of us who didn't buy in are still very much interested in where it ends up. If anything, newtek created this situation with their HC membership and it's up to them to handle it as well. I'm not even sure I agree that it was a good idea myself. If anything it seems to be further dividing the community into haves and have nots, and all that that implies.

colkai
04-06-2009, 01:55 AM
Hi All,

Well, it's cool that Core has finally gotten started and out to the HC members.

But before this thread starts to go down with core's great or core sucks' etc..and the he said or not...or flaming...

May I make a suggestion and comment to all...

>> BIG SNIP <<

Have a good day...and let's create some COOL Stuff :)

Cheers,

Ray Adams

Well put Ray, I think a step back in many cases for all the reasons you cited is a good idea.

colkai
04-06-2009, 01:57 AM
So, you're basically saying the competition is too strong, so why bother?

'Cause a rookie racer can win on his first go out against the best in the world, sometimes, experience and resources don't make up for outstanding talent. Same reason we have some kick-A free plugins and software. :)

geo_n
04-06-2009, 02:29 AM
'Cause a rookie racer can win on his first go out against the best in the world, sometimes, experience and resources don't make up for outstanding talent. Same reason we have some kick-A free plugins and software. :)

Those are rare cases though. Most have to work hard at it to be the best. Football, basketball, etc, the athletes train hard and the best maybe even harder to be where they are. Thinking that you're good enough and have outstanding talent can get back at you someday. Too complacent is not good. So newtek has to do its best in everything. marketting, development, support, etc. They missed hitting the marketting, hoping development would be better up to Q4.

Nemoid
04-06-2009, 03:17 AM
Having to use Lw 9.6 along with CORE for some time, is merely a transitional period. CORE is a new starting point

Like it or not: Lw 9.x series is now considered as legacy, and source for inspiration for good things and workflows it has. It also hosts new code which will be put into CORE soon.
And there are things that can be mantained,or quite so, as well.

For example, shading is quite good, even compared with other apps. it has linear editor and nodal too, so it will probably be enhanced and put within CORE without changing that much.
Other tools, its clear they'll pass some sort of changement.

The rigging/binding process will very probably be redesigned taking into account some of the innovations we find into 9.6 now, and some good things we can find into other apps, more anmation orented.

As for modelling it needs some real love compared to what Lw offers now: its not only the need of power into handling way more polygons than in the past , but the tools themselves which have to really exploit modifier stack, history,nodes. and more.

Regarding the UI :
there are several aspects to consider: the first is that out of the box, the program needs an efficient workflow for speedy work.

What's important are tools and their behaviour, what the program offers in terms of features.

Then it comes how those features are presented into an efficient workflow out of the box.
This is actually what makes Lw different from other packages, like Maya : it is very good out of the box in what it does.

the second aspect is UI customization ability along with keyboard/mouse shortcuts customization ability. The more options and freedom you provide, the better it is in this field, because you allow the user to male the UI fit his workflow.
Qt tools will allow alot in this field.

On the other hand a very well thought UI out of the box, will allow for offering a great starting point.


If you read carefully the Jay interview he stresses the fact that apps like Maya are more 3dOSses rather than efficient solutions out of the box.They are good, because they're programmable, extendable and an host proprietary tools and code and so they became the base of large pipelines.

Lw has a different philosophy, and I think CORE will simply expand that same phlosophy.

Designing your app very well, as Jay stresses, you really can make it in a way in which its good, as Maya to be the base of a large pipeline, host proprietary code and beyond, but at the same time, being great out of the box with its own toolset, which for the above reasons becomes literally expandable, programmable, and into a certain way, open.
Technology is at the right point to allow that, for sure.

Whats needed to accomplish that, is a clear vision of how a modern 3D app should behave, being good for a speedy work, but allow all sorts of flexibility nd stratification, refinement of your work (what Lw currently doesn't allow).

*Pete*
04-06-2009, 03:33 AM
Jay has said both in print and video that LW users would feel very at home with how CORE functions.

id say half true...even if CORE is very different, the nav is different, ui is different and so on...the setup with text icons, familiar names on tools, ui set up close to the way it was in 9.6 and so on.

it may sound contradictory, but CORE is familiar and unfamiliar at the same time...you still use space to jump between point, edge poly and other modes.
but at the same time you notice that you want something to happen and then it doesnt happen..becouse you pressed the wrong keys or did it the old way.

besides...its only the very beginning still, loads of stuff will come to CORE that we recognice from 9.6 and over time the familiar vs unfamiliar factor will increase on the familiar side.

why they chose a new way to navigate i dont know, but im sure they had their reasons...one reason, that HRgiger took up on earlier is that LW is dead..or atleast dying, so it would perhaps be better to have COREs navigation to fit other, bigger applications that will be used alongside CORE for a long time to come still..


either way, i think it is a little premature to start big fights over this, im sure NT has noticed our discontent about it and we will see how things look like a month or so from now...perhaps CORE become like LW, or we started to agree that the new way is a better way...

as larry repeatedly says, is it better or just different?

we know it is different, but we do not know if it is better....yet.
our dislike towards the new nav method is based on it being different, to find out if it is better takes more effort and time than just to notice the difference.

*Pete*
04-06-2009, 03:43 AM
I get the impression that the majority of people who bought in were already die hard LW fans.

you get the impression becouse its the die hard LW fans who post here on the public forums about CORE and end up in endless discussions.

but inside the hc forums you will find a healthy mix of people new to LW, people who used LW since the first code was written to it, people who left LW and people who never will leave LW.

but, over here, if you would notice who are here arguing, you might notice that is much the same crowd who will argue in all threads..religion, politics, 3d apps....some are in HC and some are not, but its still the same guys who love arguments.

im unsure of the total hc member count, but its close to a thousand, or past it...perhaps ten, twenty of us are die hard fans, but that still leaves hundreds of others who have a more healthy and balanced look at things.

hrgiger
04-06-2009, 03:53 AM
This thread has spun out of control fast and will probably be closed soon. As much as I disagree with Larry, I am trying to be respectful even if he thinks I'm trying to take shots at him. I just disagree with making a an effort to make CORE much like old Lightwave. Jin has a brash delivery, but I think his message is sound. It's time to move on from old Lightwave. CORE is a brand new application. It's not Lightwave rewritten with some updated code. They're not 'porting' code, they're writing a whole new program.
Yes, Jay has said that CORE should honor its roots and I think it's headed in that direction. Larry talks about ease of use and quick turnaround time on projects are LW's strengths. Well, I see nothing in CORE that has contradicted that yet. If anything, with Lightwave now becoming a unified application with complete transparency, will only make it more streamlined and efficient. No more wishomh you could use that feature with this feature, or in other words, no more klunky workarouds to accomplish what sometimes amounts to a simple task.

colkai
04-06-2009, 04:19 AM
So newtek has to do its best in everything. marketting, development, support, etc. They missed hitting the marketting, hoping development would be better up to Q4.

Yeah, I hear you, though I'll take getting it right in the code over getting it right in marketing. ;)

Kuzey
04-06-2009, 05:48 AM
At this stage of development, Newtek needs to experiment and see what works and what doesn't. Only when you try out ideas do you stumble onto new and better methods, you don't just come up with perfect code from the get go. You need to play with it, test it until things fall into place.

Hey Cresshead, those videos sound great. Mmmm 30 odd new features or different ways of doing things :)

Kuzey

Nicolas Jordan
04-06-2009, 08:40 AM
Even though I fear the new team may want to take Lightwave in a different direction of their own that may depart from the old Lightwave feel somewhat I think they definitely have the talent and ability to take Lightwave in a new direction and have everything come together in the end. They are the same team who gave us the updates from 8.0 to 9.6 so I would hope they would be very familiar with Lightwaves strengths and weaknesses and address them as they build Core.

Larry_g1s
04-06-2009, 09:25 AM
This thread has spun out of control fast and will probably be closed soon. As much as I disagree with Larry, I am trying to be respectful even if he thinks I'm trying to take shots at him. I just disagree with making a an effort to make CORE much like old Lightwave. Jin has a brash delivery, but I think his message is sound. It's time to move on from old Lightwave. CORE is a brand new application. It's not Lightwave rewritten with some updated code. They're not 'porting' code, they're writing a whole new program.
Yes, Jay has said that CORE should honor its roots and I think it's headed in that direction. Larry talks about ease of use and quick turnaround time on projects are LW's strengths. Well, I see nothing in CORE that has contradicted that yet. If anything, with Lightwave now becoming a unified application with complete transparency, will only make it more streamlined and efficient. No more wishomh you could use that feature with this feature, or in other words, no more klunky workarouds to accomplish what sometimes amounts to a simple task.I couldn't agree more. I wrote in another thread: the present version of LW (as good as it is), is based upon an old architecture and mind set of how to do 3D. So I don't just want a LW of yester-years with a make over, I want a whole new LW! I'll take a new app. (so to speak) if that means new ways of doing things better. With CORE, NT & we have an opportunity to completely re-think 3D and make LW that, not just fix what's broken.

I think if we/NT has the mind set of "let's just fix what's broken", then it's very much confining. With CORE, we have an open canvas to do/re-think 3D, not just LW!

Titus
04-06-2009, 09:34 AM
i've never had a problem with lw's renderer (except for shadow map control).

jin


I love LW rendering, but I think core needs bucketing or any other tactic to avoid the "out of memory" errors.

prometheus
04-06-2009, 11:53 AM
well..Im trying to avoid the core threads, since Im not a member and have to little insight, and itīs so easy to just get stuck in long long discussions leaving little room for doing something creative, and all that throwing bad words at each other just feels like self protection of their own egos.

Anyhow..I would like to sound in with splinegod on the UI interface, it feels kinda odd that newtek hasnīt? provided the old Lightwave UI along with the new core, It would have been perfect to show it like..
"this is how the design are right now, donīt like it?..oki doki..you can switch to the old interface setup like this"

How the colors and button design is done might be a secondary thing, but providing the UI with most of the familiar tool on the standard places would probably help people out during a switch and during teaching and production.

A little forsight of that and afterthought from NewTek could haved elliminated a lot of worries me thinks.

Michael

lion111
04-06-2009, 12:06 PM
Quoted for agreement. Customization is paramount. It makes all this whining and complaining from most in this thread, completely moot.



yes, yes and yes

in the end i think there will be even a "Larry UI":)
please chill
look at the movies (the first one and the one about shortcuts) again
everything is possible

jasonwestmas
04-06-2009, 12:10 PM
I couldn't agree more. I wrote in another thread: the present version of LW (as good as it is), is based upon an old architecture and mind set of how to do 3D. So I don't just want a LW of yester-years with a make over, I want a whole new LW! I'll take a new app. (so to speak) if that means new ways of doing things better. With CORE, NT & we have an opportunity to completely re-think 3D and make LW that, not just fix what's broken.

I think if we/NT has the mind set of "let's just fix what's broken", then it's very much confining. With CORE, we have an open canvas to do/re-think 3D, not just LW!

I agree with you and HR 100%. Modeler is ok and some of those modeling tools that have been developing these past 10 years are ok. . .but I'm more than ready for new and faster workflows that bring forth better results.

prometheus
04-06-2009, 12:33 PM
I agree with you and HR 100%. Modeler is ok and some of those modeling tools that have been developing these past 10 years are ok. . .but I'm more than ready for new and faster workflows that bring forth better results.


Me too..but my sympathy goes out for those that need to work with it fast and also need to train others based on training materials etc.
That will require that most of the familiar tools are in the right places.

Switching to newer interface and workflow should be an option not a must, If theres any thought of doing a smooth familiar transition between the oldie lightwave and core.

and personally I have only seen a couple of screenshots, and some things I like and some not, but itīs very relative at this stage and since it will be much more UI customizable.

I Like the darker look..with brighter text on to darker backgrounds, I hated to see black text on a greytoned background.but thatīs an option after all.

I donīt like some of the buttons from what Ivé seen mainly doing round buttons..just gives a feeling of old interface and waste of space.

The selected buttons in this version now has an outline around it, donīt like that either, prefered those angled buttons that were highlighted, but not with white, other colours please.



Actually my favorite interface was the old lightwave v7 style.

that was to much about the UI..should have a different thread for that perhaps.

Michael

IMI
04-06-2009, 01:03 PM
I agree with you and HR 100%. Modeler is ok and some of those modeling tools that have been developing these past 10 years are ok. . .but I'm more than ready for new and faster workflows that bring forth better results.

I kind of have to disagree with you there, Jason. I think Modeler is far beyond "ok". There are things it could stand to have to make things easier and quicker, yes, but even without those things, it's still one of the best 3D modelers out there, IMO. Modo being right up there with it, with the exception that Modo has those tools Modeler needs to have.

I understand they have to start somewhere with CORE and I've read all the reasons why they chose to start with modeling, but personally I'd have much rathered just about everything else being worked on before modeling, as long as it can import LWO's and OBJ's.

Of course, that might be a moot point, as we don't know what all CORE 1.0 will be able to do.

jasonwestmas
04-06-2009, 03:19 PM
I kind of have to disagree with you there, Jason. I think Modeler is far beyond "ok". There are things it could stand to have to make things easier and quicker, yes, but even without those things, it's still one of the best 3D modelers out there, IMO. Modo being right up there with it, with the exception that Modo has those tools Modeler needs to have.

I understand they have to start somewhere with CORE and I've read all the reasons why they chose to start with modeling, but personally I'd have much rathered just about everything else being worked on before modeling, as long as it can import LWO's and OBJ's.

Of course, that might be a moot point, as we don't know what all CORE 1.0 will be able to do.

More, than OK? I guess that depends on what you compare it too.:) It may be that I just model too much, despite the smoothness of modeler (which is why I use it) I get tired of the work flow, it really tires me out even after tweaking the hot keys. I believe that fatigue comes from having to switch in between tools too much, I'm not a linear kind of thinker at all plus I usually have to eyeball my referenced subject matter (Concept Art), I like to consider everything at all times so that often leads me to switching tools A LOT. It feel so much like painting an image pixel by pixel or with a number 1 size brush . Tons of control yes, it's like heaping details upon details rather than heaping large forms together quickly. I'm thinking I'm going to be loving the snapping tools. I read that we will be able to create a primitive upon a face or vertex or edge. Now that sounds pretty useful to me. I think the brush-like tools in core and/ or possibly sticky keys (Quick Mode toggling) will save me a ton of time in that respect too and be easier on my mind so I can think about more important things and therefore get it done faster. Also I'm talking about map creation too, that is a huge part of what I do as well. Sooo very tiring. :sleeping: I'm looking for some real time savers. Ever try making a long hair wig with splines in modeler? That could be so much easier in respect to getting the right "general" hair pieces together. So basically I'm talking about better selection of the desired "groups" or "regions" on the model. This is more of a generalized form of control. Currently in modeler we have super primitive forms and then we have super duper micro manipulation tools, what we lack is controlled selection and manipulation over a forms that fall in between super primitive and super micro. In return we get a work flow that takes much longer to get from primitive to specific detailing. Imagine getting a lump of clay and sculpting that with a needle, Modeler isn't that bad but that's how I feel when doing certain types of highly repetitious operations.

Well of course you might know that NT started with modeling so that every component part could be animated free of the subdivision order constraints we have now, meaning total control over deformations over time. So that part was just a plain necessity for animation free of work arounds and endless tweaking. I'm really really excited about being able to animate a whole stack of modeling procedures. Imagine the possibility of being able to use those kinds of things as morphs!

IMI
04-06-2009, 03:31 PM
Well don't get me wrong - I'm very much looking forward to Core too, to see what it offers.
I can see where you're coming from with modeling though. You probably do lots of things I never have a need for. I just meant that even for all its faults, it's still easier and quicker to use than most other programs out there, and a whole lot easier when it comes to getting extreme accuracy.
But I get aggravated with it too. Aside from when I'm making something for our speed modeling challenges here, I'll load up a model in Modo at the first sign of trouble in Modeler, without even feeling guilty. ;)

It WILL be very cool to be able to actually animate changes in modeling though. That's going to be amazing, I think. :thumbsup:

lwanmtr
04-06-2009, 03:31 PM
While the tools in modeler could use some tweaking, I have to agree that it is still one of the best out there. Modeling, no matter what kind of workflow is a repetive task...I've used Maya, Modo and Max and despite them having alot of the tools and buzzwords the tasks are still a linear process. As for fine details and the like, Modeler is still excellent. UV tools suck, I'll give ya that..hehe.

Of course, I look forward to seeing how Core will work with reguards to the modeling process. But, guess what, it will still be a primarily linear process still..although it looks like you can mix up the history a bit.

*Pete*
04-07-2009, 07:06 AM
perhaps we will end up using 9.6 modeler as the modeler for CORE...



you guys worry too much, ive seen some stuff in CORE that should have been in 9.6 a long time ago...nothing special, but helps a lot for modeling.

my quess is that CORE will be a better modeler in a short time, propably it will be a better renderer too before the year is at end..

GandB
04-07-2009, 07:34 AM
As far as the UVing goes; has NewTek ever looked at Ultimate Unwrap 3D (http://www.uu3d.com/)? I use it for all my needs (that and it's a pretty good file converter too).

-Keith

IMI
04-07-2009, 08:06 AM
I think they should do one of those bundling deals and include a license for Headus UVLayout (http://www.uvlayout.com/) with Core. ;)

It comes in Mac flavor too.