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stoolpigeon
08-17-2003, 11:07 PM
How about a few simple audio enhancements like

Compression - needed muchly!!!

Normalization - could help

Eq - even a 2 band would be nice.....3 band a plus!

I typically have to capture video via firewire and sound analog, so I can compress and eq it while it goes onto the toaster. Unfortunately, this requires un-compress dv....modify audio....re-compress dv. Soooo, a little quality is lost.

Nothing really fancy needed, just a few basic features.

Thanks,
Chad

Paul Lara
08-18-2003, 05:43 AM
Beside the three you've listed, what other audio filters do you think should be a priority?

videoguy
08-18-2003, 11:44 AM
i would like to see noise reduction , click pop reduction , 60hz hum reduction i would really like to see a live eq type thing that would be like a real world eq but at least 18 band EQ

vanguard
08-28-2003, 08:38 AM
We export to Coll Edit Pro, and do that necessary sweetening, then save back with a slightly different name, and drop and go.

Cheap, and easier than other methods.

I use outboard compressors through my external audio board though.

The SX-8 dousnt have enough balanced inputs, so we have use a board to keep it clean.

tmon
09-04-2003, 04:15 PM
The most commonly used effects I use everday are also normalization (Sound Forge) and compression (dedicated outboard compressor, dbx 166A) and EQ (both shelving-type and parametric). I wish I had multichannel I/O (at least four channels) so I could run my music and voiceovers to separate outputs and then use the aux sends on my mackie differently on different stereo pairs, but that's another issue...

Howz about reworking things so that VT-edit can work with Direct-X plugins?

That would open the door to a whole universe of audio features, and maybe we wouldn't have to go to second party audio apps as much as we do now.

Jean
09-05-2003, 04:20 AM
Yeah, diretx Plugins, VST plugins, that's the thing to implement!!

Jean

videoguy
09-05-2003, 08:51 AM
acutally andrew and i looked at implementing direct x audio plugins and to tell you the absolute truth the sdk and the plugins themselves are horribly writtten andrrew and i decided that it would easier if we wrote our own plugins so we could try and optimize them for the toaster i.e realtime. look for them down the road

Jean
09-05-2003, 10:24 AM
Are u shure it will be easier to forget the badly written vst/directx sound plugins ?
There is like hundreds !
Some are mind boggling in terms of algoritm, power and possibilities.
There new ones coming out everytime, the whole Reason, Cool edit, Cubase users, had built their industry on these.

Start from the scratch with a new kind of sound plugins isn't really a workaround, it's a totally different philosophy.

Perhaps a module who will execute those plugins in VT3 by layers, by audio mixer's channels or by individual audio clips would be less work that to rewrite, let's say, the best sound streching, equalize, reverb, volume algoritms of directX/VST plugins.
(the "Waves" plugins are the bests)


(But that's just a non-programer opinion ! Perhaps I'm wrong on so many levels) :)

Jean.

tmon
09-05-2003, 10:30 AM
I'm not one to evaluate code, but I do know that not all plugins sound equal. Is it really true that ALL direct-x/VST plugins consist of bad code? E.g. please take a look at this one (ozone). I've used it, and in terms of sound (that's what matters, right?), it's fantastic:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/directx.html

People that work in digital audio and computer-based DSP are pretty used to short rendering times to apply an effect to their audio tracks. E.g., we've been going to other apps for this for over two years with T[1] and T[2]....that's a lot of "rendering" time. ;)

If NewTek could build a suite of them that all operate in real time.... I'd consider that a good thing, but would this not perhaps fall under the questions category of "why reinvent the wheel?"

Just my humble reflections...

Pete Draves
09-05-2003, 01:52 PM
Could we have direct support for 3rd party sound cards like mackie lynx and antrax?

Pete

MediaSig
09-05-2003, 02:55 PM
...I second the above motion....

All in favor, say "I."


;-)
Greg

videoguy
09-05-2003, 04:09 PM
the main reason we decied to re invent the wheel is because the plugins we looked at (we only looked at a few and the sdk) just werent fast engouh and getting them intergrated was the hard part there is no sdk specificly designed to allow you to add plugin in support and we had a hard time getting the plugin interface to launch

tmon
09-05-2003, 04:14 PM
Interesting.

Come to think of it, I don't know if there are any NLE's with DirectX PlugIn support.....maybe there are, but I don't know of any. Even Vegas Video bundles with Sound Forge for serious audio work...

I guess multitrack audio packages are built differently from the ground up to allow for Direct X/VST plugins?

Anyway, I'd still suggest looking at that izotope software. It might give you an idea of what audio tools we could use.

ScorpioProd
09-05-2003, 07:54 PM
Actually, Premiere Pro has full DirectX audio and VST plug-in support.

And even "old" Premiere has DirectX audio plug-in support

BenBrown
09-05-2003, 08:01 PM
What about the best of both worlds? A basic suite of custom built, real-time effects (EQ, Comp/Limiter/Gate, Reverb, etc) and an implementation of an external plugin archetecture?

BTW - DirectX isn't the only archetecture on the planet. Are VST, MAS, RTAS, etc all equally bad?

Just my .02


PS Vegas and Premiere have directX support.

Pete Draves
09-06-2003, 07:03 AM
Speed razor is also looking at the implementation of Direct x for audio

Pete

videoguy
09-06-2003, 11:44 AM
if you guys want this so bad the direct x and vt3 sdks are availablie publicy go them

Pete Draves
09-06-2003, 12:10 PM
Normally I would not post an answer to this but...

Improving software is an important issue in this fast moving world.

I am an editor not a software developer. Newtek is a software developer. We need a product with more (and ever changing features in the future) sometimes change is necessary.

the choices are cleare to me.
if a product is unresponsive to my productions and editing needs we tend to change to what gives us what we need.

this includes new buyers!!
Newtek has a lot of potential, and I for one. would like to see them continue to grow.
To grow by giving people the tools they need to do their job.

We are not ripping Newtek but offering new features to be included.

my $0.02 worth

Pete

tmon
11-01-2003, 06:31 AM
FYI, this plugin, along with the very elegant-sounding iOzone DX plugz by iZotope I posted earlier, is so cool that it inspired me to revisit this thread and post again (again, I don't know how "horribly written" they are, but they sure as heck sound good). I feel like there is a Grand Canyon between the audio world I live in and the VT[3]. Cool audio tools on one hand, a cool VT[3] suite on the other, but no good way to bring them together... yet.

http://www.sonictimeworks.com/p_compx.php?PHPSESSID=9bb19f4f1f5c45e2dc2977ebae1f 2ae5

*****************************
Alleged roads to take (and my "takes"):

1. Writing/creating new audio tools for VT-Edit - ("perhaps it wouldn't take too much to satisfy the limited needs of much of the user base...a basic compressor, a tutorial describing a method for setting gain structure...who needs multichannel balanced I/O, anyway, no one has more than two ears! The musicians and composers? They should just go back to their four-track cassette machines, or jam on the weekends with the rest of their garage band. The only people who do fancy film score audio stuff are those AVID people") :p

2. Making VT-Edit DirectX/VST capable - (it is not known how Adobe has been able to accomplish this and in addition to being difficult to do, it might slow-down the Real Time designs for VT-Edit, even though you have to go to another software package for audio sweetening and rendering anyway.)
:(

3. Making VT more SMPTE compatible/capable - (proposed for consideraton here). :)
*****************************
The SMPTE Master/Slave option.

Rather than spend too much of the limited-budget NewTek engineering time on creating extensive new audio tools (which clearly has never been a strength of the team anyway), perhaps the crew could consider developing VT[x] SMPTE/MIDI Master/Slave capabilities, something not new to other NLE's which have been on the market for a while. This would allow VT[x] users to access the wealth of extensive audio hardware and software expertise and engineering that has powered the music/pro audio world for decades: Very mature MIDI sequencing, hi-resolution audio sampling, 24/96 multitrack digital audio, the DirectX and VST plugin universes, the possibilities of 5.1 Surround, etc..

Consider for a moment, slaving a rock-solid Digital Audio Workstation to a VT[3], doing virtually unlimited audio looping/overdubbing, recording a music score live to picture, building a true multitrack mix bolstered by the capabilities of a multichannel I/O audio card and warm A/D conversion, with balanced audio from start to finish...these are some of the things that in all likelihood, the-single-unbalanced-stereo-mini-jacked VT[x] was never designed/conceived to do.

Not to say that this could happen overnight either, but if VT[x] was SMPTE Master/Slave capable, NewTek could then focus primarily on other matters (e.g. Aura/Mirage/LW integration, lo-res capture/hi-res recapture, improvments in the CG, DV stuff, EDL export, AAF, MPEG2 capabilities, HD development, etc.), not in creating new audio-post production beta software.

Everyone agrees that VT[x] needs more audio toolage, but if a line in the sand is to be drawn to not pursue DX and VST plugins capability, timecode synchronization is a professional option worth consideration.

Or, am I mistaken in believing this might be possible to implement?

BenBrown
11-01-2003, 09:01 AM
I'll 2nd that 100%. I would love to see timecode implementation in VT3.

Just a thought...Make the VT3 behave like an RS422 controllable device. Maybe have a place to select what is being controlled (VT-Edit, DDR, etc) Make it emulate a common control set and appear as "just another VCR" to any controller. Then we can use one of the many sync boxes that support RS422 output to control the VT3. Also note that meny audio aps support machine control directly. (Nuendo, DP, PRo Tools, Cubase, etc) and most others support it with the addition of an inexpensive midi to serial converter.

Of course this feature would have many more advantages that just for audio. Imagine...a fully conrtollabe D1 "deck" with editing, unlimited storage potential, play lists, and significantly reduced maintainance costs.

just my .02


BEN BROWN

ScorpioProd
11-01-2003, 10:06 AM
Some cool suggestions, but as a user and supporter of the growing of Newtek, I think the most critical issue here is "time to market".

What is the QUICKEST way to get INDUSTRY STANDARD audio tools to the VT[3] users?

Without question I still think this would be DirectX and VST audio support.

Newtek is a SMALL group of very talented programmers. Audio isn't their thing. If they put the interface in for standard library support, their work is done.

videoguy
11-01-2003, 10:26 AM
Acutally the interface support is the hardest part, there is no publicly availible sdk that has this in it. Trust me andrew and i have looked at this and we feel the best way to implement audio effects/filters is to write them ourselves then once we come up with a template we will release it to the community

AntAT
11-01-2003, 01:26 PM
..........

Pete Draves
11-01-2003, 02:22 PM
I agree!
The idea is not to invent another wheel but to use the ones that are available.
lots of multi chan xlr cards that can lock to the toaster.

Pete

tmon
11-01-2003, 05:50 PM
videoguy,

Excuse my programmer ignorance, but how is it that Premiere Pro can use Direct X and VST plugins?

What is it about all the MIDI and audio applications that allow them to use DirectX
and other plugins?

UnCommonGrafx
11-25-2003, 08:28 PM
Tiaji,
As someone who has gone through the SDK, I could give you several reasons why...
:o :( :mad: :confused:

Literally, you MUST have a c++ kit around to get a look at it as it's not in 'english' but in programming language. There are no explanations, in english, as to how to get around and accomplish things -- it's all in code form.
ToasterScript SDK is a bit more mature. Aussie should be congratulated for putting the document, and examples, together.

A mess, for sure. We can't expect many to jump on board to program for VT as it's much harder (=costly) to get up and familiar enough to have something classy as a product.

I'm looking for a button in it and all I see is a toggle. :eek:

Ahh, can you smell the day's frustration a cookin'?

tmon
11-30-2003, 05:24 PM
Robert,

I don't question that there must be big problems with the SDK, not that I am capable of understanding what they really are...:o :( :confused:

Oh well, I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that Tasa can get back to those P.Pro RTV plugs, as, based upon what I understand you to be saying, I shouldn't expect any audio programming for VT to approach what's already out there in the DX/VST universe.

For example, for any of you DX plugin digital audio people out there, izotope just updated their ozone2 suite to ozone3 and it includes analog modeling and the MBIT+ dither algorithm. I'm tweaking some "Live to DAT" recordings, and it really is superb:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/features.html

http://audio.rightmark.org/lukin/

eon5
03-18-2004, 07:55 AM
PAUL PLEASE !

When Audio Support will be added ? :confused:

videoguy
03-18-2004, 08:20 AM
to answer your question: soon bob tasa is working on some tird paty plugins for audio effects. even he gave up on trying to add direct x plugins the sdk is just way to nasty

Paul Lara
03-18-2004, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by eon5
When Audio Support will be added ?

Audio support is planned for the next version. :D

eon5
03-18-2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Paul Lara
Audio support is planned for the next version. :D

:confused: :confused: :confused:

The next VT3 "patch #4" version ?
or
The next VT4 version ?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

tkx :)

Paul Lara
03-18-2004, 11:53 AM
:D

RomainR
03-18-2004, 12:49 PM
ooooh a riddle...

Let's see, a grin that big could only mean... hmmm

I'll have to guess that it's going to be VT[4].

And yes, that's my final anwser.

djlithium
03-29-2004, 10:40 AM
I would like to see OMF support so I can do complete mix downs in Nuendo to picture.

Having the audio on the time line show up much like it does in VT-Edit (each stack is a new track, not just simple a/b edit scheme) with different mixer output routing is key to making proper mix downs where you need to tweak levels and send different pieces out to effects racks like those found in other VST/DirectX applications.

here is a good source of information on the world of VST/Direct X goodies.

Paul/Andrew, please look at these sections!!
Full SDK's, example plug ins, Synth Edit and other tools are here including free plug ins that do some really crazy stuff as well as the much needed things like compression, expansion, limiting, EQ etc etc.
http://www.kvr-vst.com

djlithium
03-29-2004, 10:44 AM
and another thing which I send into vidfeatures

I want to see full midi control functionality over anything that has a knob or adjustable setting in the VT suite of tools with the ability to "learn" midi functions and be able to record incoming and output midi data for each controller much like a midi sequencer. All of these "control surface" issues will disappear once we have that.

A cheap 200 dollar midi controller like the midiman oxygen 8 (great little unit) could be assinged to drive keyers, DDRs, VT-Edit clip function properties, jog wheels and other neat stuff including your outboard gear when you go to mix stuff down.

Of course having VT-Edit use different assigned channels and sound cards with multiple outs is the next logical step.

djlithium
03-29-2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by videoguy
if you guys want this so bad the direct x and vt3 sdks are availablie publicy go them


I have studied this.
Not enough access to the internal core of the VT engine is provided through the SDKs that I can find that would really give a developer the meat and potatos they need to grow a strong healthy audio system.

As far as I can tell (and I am not a coder, just a developer conceptually for certain things) we would need various forms of source code to do this.

tmon
03-29-2004, 11:59 AM
Thanks for trying, djlithium.

I'm not a programmer, but according to those that are, I think we're SOL on this one, as well as multichannel audio I/O.

Pete Draves
03-29-2004, 12:19 PM
I was hoping for:
1. lynx or other highquality card support
and audio to a separate drive
sou wright over fron sweetening
the dx support only works in the edited project
you think it is done then put in into
another project and find you have to do it all over again
Pete

tmon
03-29-2004, 12:41 PM
Audio Solutions for multitrack-type projects will have to be realized on another workstation with a pro audio card. Or at least, in another multitrack audio app.

IMHO, VT[3] was not designed for professional audio post in mind. This would be fine, except I don't know of an elegant way to export a multitrack project into another sweetening/mixing package (e.g. ala OMF, etc.).

Perhaps if the timeline were designed with a track-based option....?

UnCommonGrafx
03-29-2004, 01:11 PM
Chuckle...
Patience, guys.

Here's hoping NAB has something for ya'll in this arena!

videoguy
03-29-2004, 01:22 PM
why add all that natively in the vt3 suite which would make the toaster extremely bloated. i know newtek is working on AAF , omf support which would solve all thoose problems

djlithium
03-29-2004, 02:35 PM
Well I hope they pick one and get it done in a .X release/patch. :)

I agree, OMF would fix a lot of problems, but some simple audio track to mixer/fx routing would solve a majority of peoples issues. And as for the bloat? What do you think BG rendering is for?

:)

PIZAZZ
03-29-2004, 03:52 PM
yummmmm MIDI. I would kill for it integrated myself.

Lots of fun stuff could be accomplished with MIDI in and out.

I would like to be able use all the little contollers like the new under $200 Behringer slider controller to hand off the audio to someone else in live productions.

yes MIDI, pretty please?

djlithium
03-29-2004, 04:05 PM
Aye, MIDI control over anything in VT3!

Basically you would right click and hit an option on a control called "Midi" learn and the next midi message the system receives from a control would then be assigned to that.
Move it up, goes up, move it down, it goes down.
Simple simple stuff guys. Surely no one at NewTek would argue that this is a "non-standard" approach with no SDK etc.
Midi is about as standard as you can get for hardware to software communication next to perhaps TCP/IP.

Of course doing this would more or less completely negate the need for a RS-8 and that might rub someone the wrong way. Still a newtek RS-8 based on midi (through USB mind you) would be very well accepted here. Probably pretty easy to do.

Also any kind of super nifty mixer unit like the berhinger or another unit from MidiMan like their surface control products could be OEM'ed and packaged up with a newtek stamp and I am all sure we would go for that too. Time to market???
Hmm depends on who is working on it.
Of course a fast path to do this would be to have a sytem that sat ontop of VT3 and read the incoming midi data for a control that was assigned to something and have it feed the info to the modules and interface the stuff using scripts like the toasterscripts.

PIZAZZ
03-29-2004, 04:24 PM
Now that is an idea......

You looking over my shoulder Kel???

We are using a program called Bome that is a midi to Keystroke intrepeter. I have it working pretty well around here. But as you know Audio Mixer has no keyboard shortcuts. Midi control natively implemented would be much better.

If anyone wants to try the Bome software, shoot me an email.

Jay Kelley
04-21-2004, 01:48 PM
I am curious.. Why are you not supporting the editing packages that are already out there?

I have begged until I am blue in the face for SOMEONE at Newtek to support Adobe Premiere Pro with VT..

THey ignore me, and others al the time on this issue so that I must beg from someone like Bob Tasha for any hope of results.

I am currently editing long projects on VT Edit and I cannot express with words how much I hate it.

If I could sell my toaster and get a better system I would do it in a second. Problem is that I built a whole system around it expecting that this would be taken care of.. Stupid of me I know.

This is just horrible.. Sometimes I actually get scared into thinking that Newtek believes VT edit is a good editing system on it's own and that's why they do not want to support any others.

Scary

Jay K.

kleima
04-22-2004, 10:58 PM
Oh, please...

kleima
04-22-2004, 11:00 PM
You must not use the storyboard/timeline much in conjunction to do your editing, no?

djlithium
04-23-2004, 10:02 AM
the key to long haul edits is subprojects.

:)