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SBowie
04-01-2009, 07:14 AM
I just want to sincerely praise the LW dev team and also any other staff members who supported their effort to deliver Core Q1 on time ... and especially, those who stayed most of the night manually generating keys for the slavering mob hanging about restlessly in the HC forums (and who shall from this day forward forever be known as "The F5 Fusileers")! :thumbsup:

biliousfrog
04-01-2009, 07:44 AM
So have you all got the software now or just access to the forums?

A Mejias
04-01-2009, 07:46 AM
No forums and I don't see anything in my download section either. :(
I just sent off some emails.

The forum issue could be automated at least. :p

IMI
04-01-2009, 08:06 AM
So have you all got the software now or just access to the forums?

I think he means they got their CORE alpha/beta out on time.
That's good to hear and it makes me more confident they'll be prepared to deliver in Q4 too. :thumbsup:

JeffrySG
04-01-2009, 08:26 AM
Maybe this should be in the CORE area?

SBowie
04-01-2009, 08:29 AM
Nah ... they deserve public congrats.

*Pete*
04-01-2009, 08:47 AM
I think he means they got their CORE alpha/beta out on time.
That's good to hear and it makes me more confident they'll be prepared to deliver in Q4 too. :thumbsup:

yeah, and the funniest thing was when someone posted a april fools joke about CORE being downloadable.

Jay replied simply "banned" LOL

no, we have had a party "over there"..im about to instal CORE right now ;)

shermanlu
04-01-2009, 08:52 AM
Nah ... they deserve public congrats.

:agree:

Big thanks to Jay, Chuck & all Dev. members...:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

IMI
04-01-2009, 09:53 AM
yeah, and the funniest thing was when someone posted a april fools joke about CORE being downloadable.

Jay replied simply "banned" LOL


What do you mean? Someone there or here in the serf forums?
A guy got banned for an April fools joke?



no, we have had a party "over there"..im about to instal CORE right now ;)

Oh well good for you.
I was planning on doing some modeling in modo 302 for a little while, so I guess we'll be both doing the same thing more or less. :D

EDIT:
But seriously, yes, they do deserve a big congrats for getting it out on time. :)

SBowie
04-01-2009, 10:04 AM
A guy got banned for an April fools joke?No, he got 'joke banned' ... it was perfect, you had to be there.

cresshead
04-01-2009, 10:19 AM
So have you all got the software now or just access to the forums?


got the software..no email with key as yet....

so the race is on..
i'm downloading 3dsmax 2010 trial [700mb] whilst i wait for newtek to arrive back at work and send back the key number!:)

wsantiago
04-01-2009, 12:10 PM
I think he means they got their CORE alpha/beta out on time.
That's good to hear and it makes me more confident they'll be prepared to deliver in Q4 too. :thumbsup:

They were 1/2 hour late.

SBowie
04-01-2009, 12:20 PM
Or mayyyy-beee ... the universe was too early.

IMI
04-01-2009, 02:49 PM
Or mayyyy-beee ... the universe was too early.

No, we're on daylight savings time now - fake time made for farmers for whatever reason. Or something like that. So they were a half hour early. When they announced CORE we were still in standard time, so they probably forgot to account for that hour they would lose when setting the schedule. ;)

Besides, time over the planet is relative. For some people they were a half day late and for others a half day early.

GandB
04-01-2009, 02:54 PM
I'd like to offer my congratulations as well...despite the various feedback we've all taken part in over the last few weeks...I hope NT and the HC members succeed!

-Keith

serge
04-01-2009, 03:00 PM
I think he means they got their CORE alpha/beta out on time.
That's good to hear and it makes me more confident they'll be prepared to deliver in Q4 too. :thumbsup:
On time? A few months ago Jay Roth said it would be available in a few weeks.

SBowie
04-01-2009, 03:25 PM
You've never hear that "two weeks" in software development does not have quite the same meaning as in the outside world? And a "few weeks" ... well, that's something else again. It's just short of miraculous they hit their Q1 target, and (setting aside the standard unexpected glitches) surpassed it in a couple of significant ways that I suppose I shouldn't mention yet (sorry).

serge
04-01-2009, 03:38 PM
... "two weeks" in software development does not have quite the same meaning as in the outside world?
But I am "the outside world", and software developers should know that I consider "a few weeks" not to be two months ;). Don't get me wrong though, I too am happy. But I'm happy it didn't take them 6 months or a year. (You know, it's like the US stock market these days: stocks go up because the news is less bad than expected. ;))

jayroth
04-01-2009, 04:43 PM
But I am "the outside world", and software developers should know that I consider "a few weeks" not to be two months ;). Don't get me wrong though, I too am happy. But I'm happy it didn't take them 6 months or a year. (You know, it's like the US stock market these days: stocks go up because the news is less bad than expected. ;))

Serge, we said it would ship in Q1, and it did. I have been firm about that all along.

serge
04-01-2009, 05:35 PM
Serge, we said it would ship in Q1, and it did. I have been firm about that all along.
Sure, but you were also very firm in your presentation saying that CORE would be available within weeks. Surely you didn't mean 2 months by that, right? :) Anyway, I'm genuinely happy that it's available now.

harlan
04-01-2009, 06:43 PM
Sure, but you were also very firm in your presentation saying that CORE would be available within weeks. Surely you didn't mean 2 months by that, right? :) Anyway, I'm genuinely happy that it's available now.

Well, 2 months certainly falls in the 'within weeks' timeframe you mention! :D

So quit yer *****in and go play with CORE Q1!! I'm still waiting on some cash before I can buy in, so I missed out on the lovely $395 price... boo hoo for me, but I'll be joining you guys in CORE land soon enough. :)

harlan
04-01-2009, 06:45 PM
Oh, I'd also like to offer my congratulations to the CORE team as well.

wsantiago
04-01-2009, 07:02 PM
Sure, but you were also very firm in your presentation saying that CORE would be available within weeks. Surely you didn't mean 2 months by that, right? :) Anyway, I'm genuinely happy that it's available now.

At the risk of getting ban from this forums again for expressing my opinion I agree with you 100%. Keep expressing yourself and pay no attention to the cheerleaders for they know not what they speak off even though they want to sound like they do. And by the way in my time zone they were 1/2 into Q2 when they release it. And boy If you only Knew but I'll let the Hardcore cheerleaders tell you. Sooner or later they will realize that they have been had and will have to come clean to get some self respect back. Honesty is the best policy I have always said and this CORE promotion campaign has been nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Hopper
04-01-2009, 07:31 PM
Honesty is the best policy I have always said and this CORE promotion campaign has been nothing but smoke and mirrors.
Odd .. I installed my smoke and mirrors last night. Works great. Even got a few screenshots off. It's looking good so far. I guess this is the first time smoke and mirrors has a version number and an installation package.

robk
04-01-2009, 07:36 PM
Sent the information for a Key about 11 hours ago. Still no response.

Auger
04-01-2009, 07:38 PM
Odd .. I installed my smoke and mirrors last night. Works great. Even got a few screenshots off. It's looking good so far. I guess this is the first time smoke and mirrors has a version number and an installation package.

I don't believe you, Hopper. Will you please show us the screenshots? :devil:

TimothyB
04-01-2009, 08:14 PM
I tried several searches, but too many core threads.

Anyone got experience how long a competitive upgrade purchase takes and core membership to activate?

I did bought it last night, and all of today the status still says payment received. Does it take longer as they confirm your serial number for the qualifying product?

And then how will they know my forum account based off my e-mail to setup the hardcore forum area, or do I register soon and give them that information?

Philbert
04-01-2009, 11:02 PM
Maybe this should be in the CORE area?

I agree, instead of waving around your fancy license key to taunt the rest of us.

DiedonD
04-02-2009, 12:44 AM
I agree, instead of waving around your fancy license key to taunt the rest of us.

Yeah

Id buy LW Core no problem! But whats the use, if you can get the best and highest working computers, tablets, scaners and other high tech gear, and having projects to work on, but to no avail since you realize later on that you just dont have time to do it all!

colkai
04-02-2009, 02:58 AM
Odd .. I installed my smoke and mirrors last night. Works great. Even got a few screenshots off. It's looking good so far. I guess this is the first time smoke and mirrors has a version number and an installation package.

Strange that isn't it, must be some sorta new trick because my PC seems to have smoke N mirrors on it too. :p

SBowie
04-02-2009, 07:23 AM
I agree, instead of waving around your fancy license key to taunt the rest of us.So, just so I'm clear on the rules - virtually endless threads in which people rant and heckle about various Core issues are fine, but a modest thread in the very same forum to politely offer 'congrats' to some hard-working people is inappropriate? I suppose any positive mention of NewTek staff or accomplishments is likewise banned? It's a very strange world we live in.

Sarford
04-02-2009, 07:30 AM
I think Philbert meant it as playfull banter...

SBowie
04-02-2009, 07:52 AM
I think Philbert meant it as playfull banter...Ahh ... well, sorry then. But only for the mistaken attribution, not the main point.

frantbk
04-02-2009, 10:11 AM
So, just so I'm clear on the rules - virtually endless threads in which people rant and heckle about various Core issues are fine, but a modest thread in the very same forum to politely offer 'congrats' to some hard-working people is inappropriate? I suppose any positive mention of NewTek staff or accomplishments is likewise banned? It's a very strange world we live in.

I don't think it is inappropriate. I think what you failed to consider is that it is once again HC members sticking it to the general public about not being/having access to Lightwave Core. It can be viewed as you're saying "we have Core and you don't have it" also is can be viewed as once again you are trying to do NewTek's marketing departments job of drawing in more customers with vapor-marketing talk of a product few in the general public can see and have only seen through 4 videos and 4-6 screen shots.

To put is simply trying to play on peoples need for information to break them down to buy into HardCore membership so they can see what all the noise is about on Lightwave Core. Being positive to the NewTek staff and their accomplishments can be handle in the HC forum. bring it out here in the general forum will always trigger a duality to the purpose of the posting. Which is a natural reaction to the limited information policy NewTek has towards the general public. Those of us sitting on the fence didn't created the double standard - NewTek did - because of that double standard on info, you HC members will have to start accepting the backlash from that policy. :grumpy: :D :agree:

colkai
04-02-2009, 10:45 AM
Isn't that a little, err, over-reaction?
So anyone mentioning using a plugin and the joys it brings, are they "sticking it to" others on the forums and trying to "break them down to buy" the plugin?
No? Then why would simply stating about HCore be the same?

Don't get it, why is it double standard to limit information about a beta product to those willing to join said Beta? Plus, why on earth should people buying a product accept a backlash from someone who is disgruntled with the company producing the software they bought?
So, do you lash out at people who bought software you don't like in general?

Philbert
04-02-2009, 12:06 PM
I think Philbert meant it as playfull banter...

Yes, I was fooling around because I can't buy in yet. Some of you need to take your chill pills.

don_culbertson
04-02-2009, 12:23 PM
Strange that isn't it, must be some sorta new trick because my PC seems to have smoke N mirrors on it too. :p

Once had a computer with smoke - but no mirrors :D

Don

scratch33
04-02-2009, 12:31 PM
Big thanks to Jay, Chuck & all Dev. members...

Thank you to all. :thumbsup:

Good job. And I thing core can become realy a awesome pice of software.:lightwave

A big thanks to jay. It was at 2h30am texas hour... I have posted my request for serial. Received it 3 minutes later from Jay. Very cool realy.:thumbsup:

AND NOW...:beta:

SBowie
04-02-2009, 01:44 PM
I think what you failed to consider is that it is once again HC members sticking it to the general public about not being/having access to Lightwave Core.I wish I could find a courteous way to reply to that. Perhaps it will suffice to say 'no' - I feel no inclination to concern myself with or pass judgment either positively or negatively on your personal decision with respect to HC, nor do I think HC members broadly see themselves as somehow 'superior' so as to 'stick it to' anyone.

It can be viewed as you're saying "we have Core and you don't have it" also is can be viewed as once again you are trying to do NewTek's marketing departments job of drawing in more customers with vapor-marketing ....If you could find a single post where I gave unqualified encouragement to anyone else to join HC, I'd be extremely surprised. Could this thread simply be what it purports to be - sincere public praise for a job well done? I think the dev team worked long and hard, and went the extra mile this week especially. Those who feel differently have had plenty of opportunity to say so elsewhere in these forums.

How many times have hecklers said (when someone interrupted a tirade) 'if you fanboys don't like what you're reading, just don't read this thread'? If that's fair, would the same not apply here?

frantbk
04-02-2009, 02:46 PM
Once again you seem to miss the point. What I said was you can look at your posting congrats to the NewTek people from several different views. The fact that there are so many views that disrespect what I've said is pretty clear what the group view is and always will be here until Core's release. Fanboyism if you want to call it that, or just a total misunderstanding of what people can see in this post - Brown nosing, Butt kissing with no real purpose.

What can be said is that your posting of Congrats for Core's release (released just before the last day of the 1Q) can and is view by some as politically incorrect. I'm not the one whining about being abused for this thread while others rant on about Core, or the lack info. and are treated differently.

I responded to your rant about "why is it I'm being abused for my positive view when so many people are posting negative threads?" because some see your thread as politically incorrect here in the general forum. that you did it just to be a brown nosing, butt kissing wanker.

Nobody likes a butt kisser and your thread has little purpose except to draw the line between the butt kissers and the non-butt kissers.

That is what I'm trying to explain to you, if you would step back from the personal level of this thread and see it from the big picture.

Whine all you want, but many will still see little purpose of this thread here in the general forum, and that it is just butt kissing without purpose - Very politically incorrect (WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO?) :oye:

SBowie
04-02-2009, 03:00 PM
Well, we're just going to have to disagree I suppose. You are calling those of us who appreciate what the dev team has done 'fanboys, wankers, brown-nosers, butt-kissers', and describe what I say as a rant, whining, etc. I disagree, and hope I've largely done so without epithets and invective. I don't think saying "thanks" requires any of those things to be true, and stand by each point I've made.

IMI
04-02-2009, 03:08 PM
Once again you seem to miss the point.


That's an odd comment, coming from you, Oh Great Master of Missing The Point. :rolleyes:



Fanboyism if you want to call it that, or just a total misunderstanding of what people can see in this post - Brown nosing, Butt kissing with no real purpose.


Well, I don't see it that way. In fact, it hadn't even occurred to me to see it as butt kissing, et alii.
But if it is of "no real purpose" , then what is the purpose of YOUR posts here? Showing us how much of an a-hole you can be for no real purpose? :D



What can be said is that... blah blah blah blah blah and blah blah blah...

I'm sorry, what was that you said? It seems to have been too irrelevant to retain.

GandB
04-02-2009, 03:19 PM
Wow...

Soth
04-02-2009, 04:21 PM
i'm sorry, what was that you said? It seems to have been too irrelevant to retain.

-1

IMI
04-02-2009, 04:22 PM
-1

-2

Cageman
04-02-2009, 04:39 PM
Yes. HUGE congrats to NT for a very good start. And, yes, they were on time with the Q1 release.

:)

frantbk
04-02-2009, 04:45 PM
Well, we're just going to have to disagree I suppose. You are calling those of us who appreciate what the dev team has done 'fanboys, wankers, brown-nosers, butt-kissers', and describe what I say as a rant, whining, etc. I disagree, and hope I've largely done so without epithets and invective. I don't think saying "thanks" requires any of those things to be true, and stand by each point I've made.

Once again you are putting it on too personal of a view. This thread can be looked at like that. From another point of view you are giving the NewTek development team a congrats because they met a deadline that NewTek imposed upon itself. As I said before it would have been PC to do it in the HC forum. In the general forum it has a dozen different meanings depending on how you want to look at it.

The point you've made, to some, is that you are so happy that they didn't do what you were expecting (not meeting the deadline) that you have to give them a congrats for it.

You have one beta in a bunch of beta releases within the next 8 months. Is this first one worth congratulations? Was there a list of items that this beta would have? The answer in the general forum is no. Because NewTek hasn't posted a list of what should be in the first beta. Only NewTek really knows what was, or wasn't put in this beta to meet the deadline. There is no point of the congratulation (in the general forum) because their is nothing to compare for failure or success for its release, except that it met the 1Q release date. A date that NewTek imposed upon itself, a date NewTek didn't have much choice in meeting.
Tell me what was left out of the first beta, that was suppose to be in it. Once the general forum has that information than they can decide if a congratulation is in order. Until than you congrats to the team is meaningless to the rest of us.

Your is a view of a cheerleader = HardCore members = fanboy = happy just to have what NewTek promised.

My view is that of a fence sitter = Talk to me in the 4Q about congratulating NewTek on Lightwave Core. That's when everyone has a chance to see it. hopefully there will be a demo out at the same time so people can really see it.

Cageman
04-02-2009, 04:48 PM
Ok..

I just read this thread and it really stinks that some people stick to their a-hole attitude.

I'm leaving these forums for now... you can find me in Tips & Tricks + HC... the rest of these forums are dead, imho.

Cheers and thanks!

jasonwestmas
04-02-2009, 05:25 PM
Not me, I wanna hear the gears grind.. . .ahhh.

IMI
04-02-2009, 05:54 PM
Okay, I'm in. :D

-3

I'll see your -3 and raise you a +2. :D

SBowie
04-02-2009, 06:00 PM
Once again you are putting it on too personal of a view.So hitting a target is of no merit, because it was a self imposed target. Or perhaps it is because we weren't given an exact definition of the target in advance. Interesting. Of course, the latter point makes no sense. If there was no intention to provide a build that reached a specific pre-designated level of functionality (whether publicized or not), it would have been entirely possible for NewTek to post the Core Q1 release 5 minutes after the countdown ended a month or so ago and say 'There, we did it!'.

As to the former point, I don't see any particular difference between hitting a self-imposed target (that is reasonably aggressive given all factors) and an externally imposed one.

I wonder if the same rationale would apply if the target had been missed .... I rather suspect, quite to the contrary, right here in this same forum there would have been no end of nay-saying, gloating and finger pointing by hecklers - without you finding it necessary to intervene on behalf of 'political correctness' (as though that were a good thing anyway). Anything less would suggest a certain convenient double-standard.

According to that rule of thumb, it follows that - in order to be 'appropriate', and to avoid 'sticking it to the HC members' - any further criticism of Core between now and its Q4 release must be restricted exclusively to the HardCORE forums. It'll be quite interesting to see if that turns out to be the case.

Marshun
04-02-2009, 06:02 PM
WAIT! Q1 release? Which ... Where ... What Q1?

IMI
04-02-2009, 06:09 PM
Looks like we're back to square -1. :dance:

Very punny. :lol:

Psyhke
04-02-2009, 06:27 PM
Why does everything have to be a controversy? Goodness.

SBowie
04-02-2009, 07:18 PM
Tough question. Anything I might say would likely open another one, so ....:angel:

frantbk
04-02-2009, 07:36 PM
So hitting a target is of no merit, because it was a self imposed target. Or perhaps it is because we weren't given an exact definition of the target in advance. Interesting. Of course, the latter point makes no sense. If there was no intention to provide a build that reached a specific pre-designated level of functionality (whether publicized or not), it would have been entirely possible for NewTek to post the Core Q1 release 5 minutes after the countdown ended a month or so ago and say 'There, we did it!'.

Which would have been accomplished by that? That NewTek was jerking people around about Core and where they were in the design process? The point is, you are congratulating them for delivering on the beta and the deadline that NewTek had to make. Not making the deadline would have caused more problems. Supported peoples views that NewTek was marketing vaporware, and that the team wasn't up to the task of building Lightwave Core by the 4Q of 09.


As to the former point, I don't see any particular difference between hitting a self-imposed target (that is reasonably aggressive given all factors) and an externally imposed one.

That is because you're forgetting that this isn't about NT meeting the deadline. It is about congratulations that have very little purpose at this point in Lightwave Cores development. There is still 8 months until the end of the 4Q of 09. Plenty of time for problems to cause delays and have dropped tool sets, and bugs that can't be cleaned by than.


I wonder if the same rationale would apply if the target had been missed .... I rather suspect, quite to the contrary, right here in this same forum there would have been no end of nay-saying, gloating and finger pointing by hecklers - without you finding it necessary to intervene on behalf of 'political correctness' (as though that were a good thing anyway). Anything less would suggest a certain convenient double-standard.

Which is why the deadline had to be made. Which brings us back to the congratulation. I said it would have been Politically correct to post this in the HC forum. It has very little purpose here (except to the HC members) which brings up back to the view (some can take) that you are rubbing it in that NT made the deadline. As explained before, because the general public did have a list of what was suppose to be in the 1st beta release and because the general public doesn't know what is in the current 1st beta of Core - this congrats means nothing. Therefore, it can be viewed as a slap at the nay-saying gloating and finger pointing hecklers, and has nothing to really do with congratulating the development team.

To put it simply, you are using the development team in a backhanded method of crapping on the nay-saying gloating, finger pointing hecklers. This congrats has very little if any to do with the NT's team and everything to do with sticking to that group of people. This why it is politically incorrect to post it in the general forum. This congrats serves no purpose but to cause more division between two specific groups.


According to that rule of thumb, it follows that - in order to be 'appropriate', and to avoid 'sticking it to the HC members' - any further criticism of Core between now and its Q4 release must be restricted exclusively to the HardCORE forums. It'll be quite interesting to see if that turns out to be the case.

No, the rule of thumb would be that any HC member that doesn't like what they hear in the general forum should restrict their comments to the HC forum about the views in the general forum (excluding discussion on technical issue). The people in the general forum only have one forum for NewTek to hear their view on Core and its direction. When the 4Q rolls around the release is not the time for NewTek to find out that the general public - the customers that NewTek is hoping will buy Core- are unhappy with Core and will not buy it. You want to give NewTek as much time to sidestep as many problems with the future customers as possible before the release of Core, not after the release of Core. That is what the general forum should be used for; providing NT access to future user feedback on Core when NT release videos and screen shots.

Mike_RB
04-02-2009, 07:47 PM
Good job Newtek on the delivery for the q1 deadline. As a hardcore member I can full say that Core is totally awesome and I can't wait to see how things progress. Already I can see the outstanding potential in the amazing tools that are already present. And it's obvious from the other things in the app that it wont be long until core dominates the 3d feature landscape. I feel sorry for all those saps that haven't bought into hardcore.

:)

geothefaust
04-02-2009, 08:04 PM
Yeah it was cool that Chuck and Jay personally stayed up late as hell just to deliver keys to us. I was amazed honestly. They pumped out quite a few and got us rolling right into testing. :)

JMCarrigan
04-02-2009, 08:13 PM
BUTTS? KISSING? Wha..? Big butts? Uh Uh...... Where...I can't...

IMI
04-02-2009, 08:13 PM
And it's obvious from the other things in the app that it wont be long until core dominates the 3d feature landscape.


That's quite a heavy statement, especially coming from you. And lest my intent be confused, there is no sarcasm there at all. :)



I feel sorry for all those saps that haven't bought into hardcore.

:)

Yeah, me too.
Wait a minute, I'm one of them. :eek:

It's good to see a CORE thread for a change where everyone involved is in complete agreement that NT did a good job and deserves public congratulations! :D

SBowie
04-02-2009, 08:32 PM
No, the rule of thumb would be that any HC member that doesn't like what they hear in the general forum should restrict their comments to the HC forum about the views in the general forum (excluding discussion on technical issue).I really think your argument is pretty weak, sorry. I won't bother to respond on a 'point by point' basis because that would be ultimately be 'pointless'. On this last matter, though, just since I feel you have gone to a lot of trouble and deserve some sort of a reply: being an HC member does not mean one is not still a member of the 'general community'. Although some have tried to create one, there is no war between the 'general community' and 'HC members'.

Many on both sides have made adult decisions, accept the consequences of those decisions, and respect those who have decided differently. A few on both sides have behaved badly, which is a shame.

Some flare up like a five year old in a sandbox whenever anyone expresses a different point of view than their own. I am not one of those. As long as someone makes their case with a modicum of respect, I really don't mind even if I think their case is weak or their argument insubstantial. I might differ with their view, and say so respectfully, but I will not stoop to childish epithets, nor attempt to pummel them into the ground verbally. Some have had quite negative things to say in the General Discussion forum. When someone has something positive to say, they are just going to have to suck it up. We put up with a fair amount of abuse from a handful, there's no reason you can supply that is going to convince me a polite 'thanks' is off limits. As we have been told here many times by those with much more abusive and insulting things to say, if some don't like what they read, then they don't need to read it.

*Pete*
04-02-2009, 08:56 PM
Your is a view of a cheerleader = HardCore members = fanboy = happy just to have what NewTek promised.

My view is that of a fence sitter = Talk to me in the 4Q about congratulating NewTek on Lightwave Core.

intresting...on your world exists only neutral fencesitters and fanatical cheerleaders.

anyone who doesnt think like you are not entitled an opinion since that opinion comes out of pure naivety...

let me counter that view...im the neutral fencesitter who decided to see whats happening with CORE, you are the troll who lives of, seeks and finds ****.

no?...sure you are, its just as much my personal opinion as your opinion is yours...and i think that im more correct than you are, too.

Titus
04-02-2009, 08:59 PM
I feel sorry for all those saps that haven't bought into hardcore.

:)

Don't be. The same day HC appeared, I've started my first term in Animationmentor, wohoooo!

Oh! BTW, congrats to all hardcorers,

Mike_RB
04-02-2009, 09:05 PM
note previous message contained sarcasm.

*Pete*
04-02-2009, 09:07 PM
It's good to see a CORE thread for a change where everyone involved is in complete agreement that NT did a good job and deserves public congratulations! :D

last week we all were speculating, on both sides of the fence...now one side truly knows more.

truth to be told...there are things that many, including me, disagree with about CORE but none of those things has to do with its built in potential...


to the non HC people, be happy not upset when HC people like CORE and when NT delivers on promises, both are signs of a promising future for LW, NT and all of us users.
...at Q4 or before you will all see what CORE is all about and if there is something to disagree with you will be able to do so then, when you know more.
not knowing and disagreeing on principle is just lame.

that said...9.6 is a BETTER product by today...so joining HC would not have given you any benefits other than easing of the curiousity, while on the forums we now seem to be separated to HC and non HC, we are still all wavers and 9.6 (or earlier) users.

SBowie
04-02-2009, 09:10 PM
It's worth noting that some of the well-wishers in this thread are not HC members.

This proves that there are members of the general community who, although they stayed out of HC for any number of perfectly valid reasons, still a) hope to see the Core program do well, and who are b) interested in whether or not targets are met, b) glad to see that the dev team is in earnest and showing that commitment by working long and hard c) open-minded enough not to imagine themselves as taking a side in some kind of civil war, and d) comfortable giving credit where credit is due.

Titus
04-02-2009, 09:16 PM
note previous message contained sarcasm.

No offense taken, just wanted to show off about my new school experience :D.

SBowie
04-02-2009, 09:18 PM
The same day HC appeared, I've started my first term in Animationmentor, wohoooo!Very cool. :)

p.s. - I love Obelix.

Titus
04-02-2009, 09:20 PM
It's worth noting that some of the well-wishers in this thread are not HC members. .

I've tried to get hardcore the first day but had a problem with the credit card/store and decided to hold a little. Then decided to buy hardcore in Q4 or at SIGGRAPH (they always have interesting offers there). So yeah, I hope NT, LW and HC succeed as this is the path I was expecting from NT to take since LW7.

IMI
04-02-2009, 09:27 PM
note previous message contained sarcasm.

Hmmm... I guess my sarcasm sensor must have been malfunctioning. OK, I thought it seemed a little more than unexpected. ;)

SBowie
04-02-2009, 09:32 PM
So yeah, I hope NT, LW and HC succeed ...

Glad to hear it. I think you actually represent a majority.

To listen to a vocal few, you would think there were only slavering fanboy-zombies who were slavishly licking up whatever scraps NewTek dribbles out and making fun of all those who didn't do so, and on the other team, rabid bitter hecklers who devote all their energy to finding the most cynical viewpoint and ranting to the last gasp.

I really don't accept that. I think the majority are reasonable, interested, and would even like to be pleasantly surprised. I also think, however, that this majority is not the sort to wade into shark-infested waters, so we seldom hear from them because they don't want to be subjected to abuse for simply stating a moderate viewpoint, whether pro or con.

radams
04-02-2009, 10:52 PM
Hi All,

I too wish to congratulate Jay, Chuck, the LW development Team & NT.
For getting Core out to the first users who I hope will help the rest of us by working Core hard to help NT improve upon it and get the bugs out along the way.

I know there are those on both sides of this imaginary fence...to be or not to be a hardcore member.

Well, I do hope that ends...

Jay and Team....I am very happy to see you open up LW...and from the Core's outline and information that has been provided...I am impressed and looking to see how you will implement it.

This is what LW should have and needs to be....

For professionals and hobbists alike.

The only wish (or grip) I've had is that is has taken this long to get to here.

Thank you for pushing this Core into reality....
You've given me and many others hope that NT and LW has a future.
When the 3D software market has collapsed to just a few developers.

I am excited to the possible options and uses & implementation that Core can help provide...to not just the hardcore (no pun intended) user base...but for the first time and real ability to create and target markets...that could use 3D...but don't wish to know all the in's & out's or subs D's etc....

From what I'm understanding from the info you've released...it seems possible to now create our own UI...that can use Core's engines...

I'm looking forward to see where you take Core (LW) and its development and implementation.

Thanks again...

Hey for those who like to put up fences...please take it down...

Core, is the future of LW...and 3D workflows, etc....
Whether your into archviz, Visual FX, gaming , etc... this is the future...
Be a part of it...by positive discussion of what are your workflows and needs.

Stop getting hurt or nasty that your way is the only way...

Help NT, and the Dev team understand the problems, needs and possible solutions you see and deal with....

and not to get upset that something isn't implemented or in the way you wish....all of this takes time.

If you can't wait...or don't want to work with all this...then please it is time to look to other solutions.... As anyone creating you'll meet problems and challenges...you create workarounds...or deal with other tools (which LW & Core are) to get the job done...LW isn't a personal statement.

It is an amazing toolset that has helped many create their vision and for some to make a living....

The one thing that I hope NT is listening too...that has been a short coming is that in the past you've not created complete workflows or solutions...there was always a missing step or piece...that forced many to have to create work arounds or look to other solutions to provide.

I know that came from trying to help more of us to create with a wealth of features....but it created problems in the process.

With Core being even more open...and with it now being extensible...I'm hoping this will also stimulate us 3rd party developers to help step in and fill some gaps....or to create some whole new markets with Core.

Cheers,

Mike_RB
04-02-2009, 11:20 PM
That's too bad. Except for the last part, it seemed quite good. Looks like another person who is in a "Us Against Them" mentality.

Good luck with that. :D

I don't think you understood me. The congrats was genuine, and the ridiculous over the top endorsement of Core was stickin' it to Frantbk. He's not the forum police and it's just silly he's coming down on people for wanting to thank Newtek for following through on their delivery.

radams
04-02-2009, 11:34 PM
Thanks Mike & Megalodon...

:thumbsup:

It's good to settle things...positively.
it's so easy to miss read someone's real intent with forums, in emails, etc..

and equally easy to write comments that were not meant to be taken so harsh or negative.

Cheers,

geo_n
04-03-2009, 12:26 AM
:thumbsup:congrats Newtek! enjoy hc members. I'm so envious. here's hoping for renewed interest for lw in japan for the coming years so I can ditch max, Lol! make more videos and more marketting stuff!!!!

stone
04-03-2009, 03:55 AM
That NewTek was jerking people around about Core and where they were in the design process?
and they jerked anyone around just how? they specifically stated what was going to happen and have so far delivered on it.


Not making the deadline would have caused more problems. Supported peoples views that NewTek was marketing vaporware, and that the team wasn't up to the task of building Lightwave Core by the 4Q of 09.
the only thing meeting this deadline actually means, is that your posts are getting still less content and relevance.


That is because you're forgetting that this isn't about NT meeting the deadline.
its only about newtek meeting the deadline and nothing else. its customary to congratulate people for a job well done and showing your appreciation.

that you, as possible the only one, care to read a lot of nonsense into it and take it as a personal slap in your face, really only says something about you and your state of mind.


It is about congratulations that have very little purpose at this point in Lightwave Cores development. There is still 8 months until the end of the 4Q of 09. Plenty of time for problems to cause delays and have dropped tool sets, and bugs that can't be cleaned by than.
or it could just as well be all deadline met with a nice product to boot. it doesnt really matter what the future brings in that regard. congratulations at this point in time is well in order. when or if problems occours handling them at that point is in order, not worrying about or excepting them prematurely.


It has very little purpose here (except to the HC members) which brings up back to the view (some can take) that you are rubbing it in that NT made the deadline. [..repeative bla bla cut] Therefore, it can be viewed as a slap at the nay-saying gloating and finger pointing hecklers, and has nothing to really do with congratulating the development team.
only because you feel so strongly targeted like its some kind of personal attack on you. have you noticed how strange it is that no one else feels like you? maybe its because all the nonsense you keep spurting out yet again has proved to have no foundation.


[.. more repeating nothing cut]This why it is politically incorrect to post it in the general forum. This congrats serves no purpose but to cause more division between two specific groups.
there are no two specific groups, its unfortunately all in your head.


No, the rule of thumb would be that any HC member that doesn't like what they hear in the general forum should restrict their comments to the HC forum about the views in the general forum (excluding discussion on technical issue).
of course not. you have no more right to use the general forums or state your view than hardcore members. and opposed to you, hardcore members actually know what they are talking about. i know whos view i appreciate more and thats the ones who actually has information and is able to provide an argument.


When the 4Q rolls around the release is not the time for NewTek to find out that the general public - the customers that NewTek is hoping will buy Core- are unhappy with Core and will not buy it.
you and everyone else are free to state their opinions on equal terms. it doesnt matter if you are a hardcore member or not. it doesnt matter if you use a logitech mouse or not. it doesnt matter if you have curls or not. what does matter, however, is that you actually have a reason and some solid arguments. it would be appreciated if you started providing some soon.

/stone

scratch33
04-03-2009, 04:22 AM
The title was " Core congrats"...

SBowie
04-03-2009, 05:16 AM
Good point - let's try not to allow provocation to turn it into a slugfest.

DiedonD
04-03-2009, 05:22 AM
Yes lets not allow frantbks franticism get to us!

Kuzey
04-03-2009, 05:48 AM
Haha....I don't get the fuss, Newtek already said if they are late on the 4Q release people will still get the Core. I don't care if they are five minutes late or 4 months late.

Actually...I kinda hope they are late so the Core is that much better...more features..less bugs, full package etc. I'm hoping it comes out swinging and not stumbling because time ran out :D

Not being in the Core...I congratulate Newtek on beginning a new and exciting journey that will hopefully result in the best version of LW to come.

Kuzey

frantbk
04-03-2009, 07:16 AM
intresting...on your world exists only neutral fencesitters and fanatical cheerleaders.

anyone who doesnt think like you are not entitled an opinion since that opinion comes out of pure naivety...

let me counter that view...im the neutral fencesitter who decided to see whats happening with CORE, you are the troll who lives of, seeks and finds ****.

no?...sure you are, its just as much my personal opinion as your opinion is yours...and i think that im more correct than you are, too.

This would be interesting if you hadn't already used this same argument in every thread you've disagreed with. The "world you live in,... on your world exists only, and your favorite anyone that doesn't think like you."

Go back an look at the post I responded to and maybe you'll see the person I responded to was whining about being abused in his thread. I'm just explaining to him why he is being abused. The other views of other people that he is disregarding when he started this thread.

As for your person opinion about my statements. I'm not interested in them because I'm not vested at this personal level you feel the need to post at.

frantbk
04-03-2009, 07:36 AM
I really think your argument is pretty weak, sorry. I won't bother to respond on a 'point by point' basis because that would be ultimately be 'pointless'. On this last matter, though, just since I feel you have gone to a lot of trouble and deserve some sort of a reply: being an HC member does not mean one is not still a member of the 'general community'. Although some have tried to create one, there is no war between the 'general community' and 'HC members'.

Yes you are a member of the general forum. The question doesn't have to do with you as a member of the general forum. The question is, just how many forums do the HardCore members need to give out congrats and ta-da's to the NewTek development team? 5, 10, 20 forums to fill your need to express you Core congrats views.

Was there so many congrats being handed out in the HC forum that you felt the need to come to the general forum and congrats the development team so you could be heard? Was the noise over at the HC forum so loud in congrats on delivering the 1st beta that you did feel special enough in the special forum for the special HC members?

The HC forum is there for a reason, but it seems that many of you keep posting in the general forum because you are either bored with the postings in the Hc forum, or you some need to be special over here. It would be different if your thread was about Core and the Core videos release to the general public. Once again who cares in the general forum that NewTek released the beta. If the beta is out than where are the next set of videos showing the non-HC members what to expect.

If there are more videos more people might sign up. Once again your congrats serves no purpose. Unless you felt you might not be heard in the HC forum over all the other noise of congrats to the NewTek team. coming here and giving a congrats would be one way of standing out.


Many on both sides have made adult decisions, accept the consequences of those decisions, and respect those who have decided differently. A few on both sides have behaved badly, which is a shame.

Some flare up like a five year old in a sandbox whenever anyone expresses a different point of view than their own. I am not one of those. As long as someone makes their case with a modicum of respect, I really don't mind even if I think their case is weak or their argument insubstantial. I might differ with their view, and say so respectfully, but I will not stoop to childish epithets, nor attempt to pummel them into the ground verbally. Some have had quite negative things to say in the General Discussion forum. When someone has something positive to say, they are just going to have to suck it up. We put up with a fair amount of abuse from a handful, there's no reason you can supply that is going to convince me a polite 'thanks' is off limits. As we have been told here many times by those with much more abusive and insulting things to say, if some don't like what they read, then they don't need to read it.

What is stupid about this whole thing is you are trying to justify congratulating the NewTek development team for doing their job and meeting a requirement that had to be met. Your rewarding people for doing their job, simply because they did their job - sounds like an AIG thing you've got going here. You don't reward people just because they did their job - unless, I guess, you work for AIG, or are a HardCore member. Then I guess, you reward people simply for showing up for work,..huh?

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 07:42 AM
This would be interesting if you hadn't already used this same argument in every thread you've disagreed with. The "world you live in,... on your world exists only, and your favorite anyone that doesn't think like you."


oh, really? LOL

i think im actually able to understand the "other side" in discussions, even if i disagree...same cant be said about you.

i think it would be difficult for you to quote me on anything similiar to what i just said about you..so consider yourself unique.



As for your person opinion about my statements. I'm not interested in them because I'm not vested at this personal level you feel the need to post at.

of course...you are not intrested in taking things on personal level.
good.

but when you try to draw a border, claiming to be a fencesitter and then illustrate all HC'ers as fanboys, you are actually calling me and everyone else who joined a fanboy, a person who takes decisions based on idolisation of NT and LW, a naive person who see no wrongs...you ARE taking this on a personal level.

as opposed, you will propably not find a post from me where i place negative terms on the fencesitters/naysayers, and IF i do..as in your case, it is directed to the person, not the persons.

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 07:51 AM
What is stupid about this whole thing is you are trying to justify congratulating the NewTek development team for doing their job and meeting a requirement that had to be met. Your rewarding people for doing their job, simply because they did their job - sounds like an AIG thing you've got going here. You don't reward people just because they did their job - unless, I guess, you work for AIG, or are a HardCore member. Then I guess, you reward people simply for showing up for work,..huh?

when i go to the gym and i see a friend pushing 100 kg in benchpress, something that he said he would be able to do within a certain timeframe, i will congratulate him for it.

when a friend gets his driverslicense, i will congratulate him for it too.

if a fellow LW user makes obvious improvements in his art, or is simply exceptionally good at 3D, i will congratulate him for it.

if NT releases CORE on the set date, a date that we been waiting for the last two months...congratulations are totally misplaced?
becouse they get paid?...well, you didnt pay them a cent for it, so even if it is wrong for me to congratulate them for some reason, i see no problem for you to do so, since they didnt work for you nor did you pay them anything, but still they achieved what they were set to do...

oh, and CORE IS what it was expected to be at this date...relatively stable too, didnt crash for me yet.

GandB
04-03-2009, 07:51 AM
Wow; come on Frank...just let it go. There comes a point when one wants to argue for the sake of arguing. I like what you've done for the game dev community, but it's time to put it to rest. Give the Core some time to grow, then come back and give your comment/crit of it (specifically when there is a demo to take a look at). Just my opinion, of course.

-Keith

SBowie
04-03-2009, 07:53 AM
Once again who cares in the general forum that NewTek released the beta.Undeniably some do, as they've joined in here - and I suspect they actually represent a much larger group. I've pointed this out above, and it is clearly unrefuted, but you are choosing to ignore it.


Then I guess, you reward people simply for showing up for work,..huh?No, I show appreciation for people who worked hard toward something worthwhile, and have passed an important milestone. And clearly there are those outside the HC forums who feel the same way, and are interested in the timely achievement.

They do not require your approval to take or express a different view from your own, and imho it requires a great deal of cynical reading between the lines for anyone to take offense. But as we've had this discussion, I see no point in continuing it. I am not in control of your emotions, and if it is offensive to you and perhaps a handful of others, there's really not much more I can do about it. I've found a great deal of what is written in these forums unnecessarily and even counter-productively offensive, but life goes on.

It's not, as you seem to think, that I don't understand your argument -- I do. I simply reject it as specious.

Kuzey
04-03-2009, 08:11 AM
All this about a date and yet the important thing is the Core and if people are happy with the first release.

Being a non core member, I wouldn't mind seeing a poll....if the Core meets or exceeds peoples expectations or falls short and if the future does indeed look bright as I believe it does.

Kuzey

SBowie
04-03-2009, 08:29 AM
Being a non core member, I wouldn't mind seeing a poll....if the Core meets or exceeds peoples expectations or falls short and if the future does indeed look bright as I believe it does.Well, feel free to start one I guess (I assume HC members can comment or indicate a 'broad perception' to some degree without overstepping privacy considerations).

Just my two cents, but I kind of think I'd find that more interesting in a month or maybe 2.

With Q1R1 in hand, seems to me we're seeing an interesting range of responses - everyone finds some things they like, some they don't like, probably some they don't 'get' at this point - and likewise, a range of extremes to those feelings. All about as you'd expect. Actually, I'm personally more interested to see how the dev team responds by variously justifying decisions or adjusting to accommodate reactions (where these seem to be the general view). I guess what I'm saying is, I'm maybe more interested in the evolution of the HC process over a little time as it will influence the product than I am the very first build.

But that's just me. Would you mind very much though, if I asked you to carry this notion forward in a thread oriented to that purpose? I don't think you have a bad idea there, but I really would like to avoid this thread becoming any more convoluted than it already has.

Kuzey
04-03-2009, 08:42 AM
Well, feel free to start one I guess (I assume HC members can comment or indicate a 'broad perception' to some degree without overstepping privacy considerations).

Just my two cents, but I kind of think I'd find that more interesting in a month or maybe 2.

With Q1R1 in hand, seems to me we're seeing an interesting range of responses - everyone finds some things they like, some they don't like, probably some they don't 'get' at this point - and likewise, a range of extremes to those feelings. All about as you'd expect. Actually, I'm personally more interested to see how the dev team responds by variously justifying decisions or adjusting to accommodate reactions (where these seem to be the general view). I guess what I'm saying is, I'm maybe more interested in the evolution of the HC process over a little time as it will influence the product than I am the very first build.

But that's just me. Would you mind very much though, if I asked you to carry this notion forward in a thread oriented to that purpose? I don't think you have a bad idea there, but I really would like to avoid this thread becoming any more convoluted than it already has.


Sounds like people are getting to know the Core and feeling their way around...which is expected and good.

I never made a poll before and will most likely mess it up, so I'll leave that for someone else. Having read your reply, maybe it would be a better idea if the poll is done in the 2Q or 3Q to get a better view of how things stand.

On the other hand, a poll per quarter would also be a good thing, that way we can see how the views/expectations change over time.


Kuzey

GandB
04-03-2009, 08:45 AM
I think a Poll at the end of each quarter would be a good thing...provided it doesn't infringe on the "spirit" of the NDA (or whatever the agreement is). The content of the poll should be focused on certain areas though.

-Keith

Kuzey
04-03-2009, 08:53 AM
I think a Poll at the end of each quarter would be a good thing...provided it doesn't infringe on the "spirit" of the NDA (or whatever the agreement is). The content of the poll should be focused on certain areas though.

-Keith

Agreed...and maybe work out a way to limit the voting to just Core members...so it doesn't become a mess :hey:


Kuzey

GandB
04-03-2009, 08:56 AM
In an open Forum like this; all we could do is "ask" that only Core members vote...perhaps they could leave a comment as well. That way you could match the number of comments with the number of votes to see if anyone other than a Core user is voting.

IMI
04-03-2009, 09:00 AM
What is stupid about this whole thing is you are trying to justify congratulating the NewTek development team for doing their job and meeting a requirement that had to be met.

Actually, what's 'stupid about this whole thing' is that that is what you have INFERRED because in your mind that gives credibility to your argument.

What's even stupider is that you don't and won't see that, just like you always royally twist every subject into something it isn't and belabor points that only you see, and never, ever show any sign of understanding what is being said.

The REALITY is - and do your best to pay attention and grok this - the reality is this post was started just to give a well-deserved high-five to a team who has been beaten down by the membership for years and raked over the coals over every little point, particularly with CORE. They deserve to be congratulated from time to time, and this was the perfect opportunity.
There is no justification. There is no NEED for justification. The only justification going on here is in your own little flawed mind.

Do try to understand that. Don't argue it, because with each and everything you post you look more and more foolish.

You'll think to yourself, 'oh, the fanboys just don't get it and can't stand my opinions', but the truth is, the fanboys can handle strong opinions just fine. The problem you have is not with your opinions, but rather, people don't like it when other people behave like misinformed idiots. And the fanboys DO get it. Just so happens we disagree completely.

SBowie
04-03-2009, 09:07 AM
In an open Forum like this; all we could do is "ask" that only Core members vote...perhaps they could leave a comment as well. That way you could match the number of comments with the number of votes to see if anyone other than a Core user is voting.pretty please? (make the 'poll discussion' a separate thread, maybe add a link here for continuity?)

frantbk
04-03-2009, 09:11 AM
if NT releases CORE on the set date, a date that we been waiting for the last two months...congratulations are totally misplaced?
becouse they get paid?...well, you didnt pay them a cent for it, so even if it is wrong for me to congratulate them for some reason, i see no problem for you to do so, since they didnt work for you nor did you pay them anything, but still they achieved what they were set to do...

You paid $395.00 for that beta, and all the other betas for the next 8 months plus a finished copy of Core when it is released. The HardCore membership isn't free. What part of your body did you pull this sorry analogy out of? :goodluck:


oh, and CORE IS what it was expected to be at this date...relatively stable too, didnt crash for me yet.

Didn't you just state in your last post that you were a fence sitter? How can you have a copy of Core and not be a HC member? A fence sitter is someone that isn't a HardCore member, and hasn't bought into the HardCore membership. Do you always mislead people when you don't agree with them?

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 09:38 AM
You paid $395.00 for that beta, and all the other betas for the next 8 months plus a finished copy of Core when it is released. The HardCore membership isn't free. What part of your body did you pull this sorry analogy out of? :goodluck:

yeah, but you seemed to have a problem when people do their job, meaning that people get paid to do what they do, and as such deserve no pat on the back.

so, why i wrote what i did, was that since you didnt pay a cent (or what ever currency you are on) for NT to do that job or to meet the deadline, you were free to congratulate them.

now as i think of it, football players and other sport people are very well paid, they do they job when they do what they do, and still they get crowds of people cheering for them....

so tell me, why cheer on team A for winning when it was their job to do so?

bah...im done with you, you see it as somehow insultive towards you for anyone else to congratulate NT for meeting the deadline with CORE.
there is nothing any of us can do about it.



Didn't you just state in your last post that you were a fence sitter? How can you have a copy of Core and not be a HC member? A fence sitter is someone that isn't a HardCore member, and hasn't bought into the HardCore membership. Do you always mislead people when you don't agree with them?

quote me on where i say i was a fencesitter.
i think i was saying that I was a HC member.

SBowie
04-03-2009, 09:52 AM
quote me on where i say i was a fencesitter.
i think i was saying that I was a HC member.

Here, let me (to save more of this):


let me counter that view...im the neutral fencesitter who decided to see whats happening with CORE, you are the troll who lives of, seeks and finds ****.


I wasn't quite sure of your meaning when I read that either, but I expect you had one, and that our chum will debate it's validity, then you'll defend it, and he'll reject it again, etc., etc. Maybe we could take this as already done, unresolvable, and save the trouble ...

p.s. - I don't mean that to sound rude, just that I kind of celebrated your 'bah', above.

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 09:59 AM
ah...yes, that.

what i meant with it was that if to be a fencesitter is a form of neutrality, then all of us have been there.

other fencesitters decided to wait, as opposed to my decision to join, but all of us considered to join, this is what makes someone into a fencesitter to begin with, once you made the decision to join or not you step of the fence...Frantktkb never even considered to get into CORE, he is simply trolling around.


edit: WHY i posted that...was becouse Franktb claimed to be a fencesitter and as such driven by clear logic, while ALL of those who went of from the fence and into HC were fanboys, driven by emotions.

frantbk
04-03-2009, 09:59 AM
Undeniably some do, as they've joined in here - and I suspect they actually represent a much larger group. I've pointed this out above, and it is clearly unrefuted, but you are choosing to ignore it.

Which comes back to the question. Just how many forums do you HC members need to do your ta-da's and congrats to the NewTek team? 5, 10, 20,...150. there has never been any disagreement that giving the NewTek team a congrats in the HC forum wasn't politically incorrect. the point is there is not point here in this forum.


No, I show appreciation for people who worked hard toward something worthwhile, and have passed an important milestone. And clearly there are those outside the HC forums who feel the same way, and are interested in the timely achievement.

Why because NewTek's teams creditability hasn't be shot out from under neath them? The fact is NT's team's creditability to produce was on the line. Failure to deliver would support the view that NT isn't up to the task of producing a Core, and meeting the 4Q release date. Well if that is the case for appreciation,... I guess then "way to go guys, you didn't f1ckup and shoot yourselves in the foot." Your creditability is good for a couple of weeks.


They do not require your approval to take or express a different view from your own, and imho it requires a great deal of cynical reading between the lines for anyone to take offense. But as we've had this discussion, I see no point in continuing it. I am not in control of your emotions, and if it is offensive to you and perhaps a handful of others, there's really not much more I can do about it. I've found a great deal of what is written in these forums unnecessarily and even counter-productively offensive, but life goes on.

Then why would you start a thread knowing it will cause some friction? You can't tell me that you didn't know that this thread wouldn't bring out different views,..views that did not agree with you. You did it anyway knowing that a little drama would be created because of this thread. Take the ownership that you knew this thread would create a little drama in the general forum.

It says something about you if you don't take ownership. I knew I would create some drama when I responded to your thread. Then again I know that most of the people posting are HC members and most that have posted after me are HC members. Therefore, the drama shouldn't surprise anyone with their posting.


It's not, as you seem to think, that I don't understand your argument -- I do. I simply reject it as specious.

The fact that the half dozen different views that I listed that can be seen about this thread seems specious to you. In fact makes your view specious. At some point you knew you would create a little drama when you started this thread. You did it knowing you would create a little drama. you then posted about how wrong it was that you couldn't put this thread in the general forum and be free from opposing views and abuse. That's were I came in and posted why you were receiving your abuse. You now call that reasoning specious. At some point are you going to take ownership of your thread and the downside of it?

You pursued the cause & effect of this little drama. Congratulating the NewTek has very little to do with this thread. The congrats is the catalyst need to generate the drama. Everyone should know that much.

You did it. you knew what the outcome would be and you did it anyway. You knew there would be opposing views, but you don't want to take the necessary hit from the opposing views - to you none of these views are genuine. Your view is genuine, but every opposing view is specious.

Because both parties views are genuine, this is the reason your thread is politically incorrect in the general forum. Being politically correct is simply sidestepping an unnecessary drama.

Mike_RB
04-03-2009, 10:04 AM
I personally needed 1 more forum than there was available in hardcore to do my congratulations. I chose here.

IMI
04-03-2009, 10:04 AM
Here, let me (to save more of this):



let me counter that view...im the neutral fencesitter who decided to see whats happening with CORE, you are the troll who lives of, seeks and finds ****.


I wasn't quite sure of your meaning when I read that either, but I expect you had one, and that our chum will debate it's validity, then you'll defend it, and he'll reject it again, etc., etc. Maybe we could take this as already done, unresolvable, and save the trouble ...



That was from post #66, btw.
The meaning of it was obvious to me right at first - it was an analogy.
in context it is,


"intresting...on your world exists only neutral fencesitters and fanatical cheerleaders.

anyone who doesnt think like you are not entitled an opinion since that opinion comes out of pure naivety...

let me counter that view...im the neutral fencesitter who decided to see whats happening with CORE, you are the troll who lives of, seeks and finds ****."


He was illustrating the position an outside, non-HC "fencesitter" might take.

A bit confusing, perhaps, but then again, I speak Pete. ;)
In any event, IMO, the statement is easy enough to see for what it says for anyone who thinks about it for a minute.

Although this is very cool that this came up, as it perfectly illustrates the point I and many others have made many many times here in these forums - frantbk is not only incapable of following a discussion within context, but also is not even interested in trying.

The guy's a troll, pure and simple. He doesn't give a damn about LW, Newtek, or any of us. He finds these threads and spouts off for no apparent reason (other than trolling), and then disappears for a while after having made a complete a** out of himself.

Nicolas Jordan
04-03-2009, 10:10 AM
I think we will be able to pass proper judgment on what Core is and it's potential when the first version of the product is released in Q4. That should be an accurate measurement of what the future may hold for Lightwave Core. Until that time comes I am going to sit back and wait.

IMI
04-03-2009, 10:12 AM
Because both parties views are genuine, this is the reason your thread is politically incorrect in the general forum. Being politically correct is simply sidestepping an unnecessary drama.


Shame, shame, shame on you, SBowie!
You and your specious speciousness!

Does your mother know what a troublemaker she raised? :D

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 10:14 AM
A bit confusing, perhaps, but then again, I speak Pete. ;)


Thanks IMI.:thumbsup:

SBowie
04-03-2009, 10:16 AM
You pursued the cause & effect of this little drama. Congratulating the NewTek has very little to do with this thread.You seem to feel you are qualified to read minds and offer judgments on that basis. Amazing. I'll tell you exactly why I posted this, and you can deny it or decry it as you please.

I felt (and feel) that a) the dev team deserves a public pat on the back, esp. after some of the abuse they have quietly borne, and b) I knew there were some here wondering if the Q1 target had been met, and this thread answers that for them without breaching confidentiality. All of the rest of the devious machinations come from your fertile little imagination, as does the allegedly horrendous offense this thread poses to the tender sentiments of those poor little lambs who hang out here. The facts clearly bear out everything I have said.

Was I aware that some few might use this thread as yet another way to spread vitriol? It occurred to me, but I hoped not (since it really requires vigorous imagination to find a way to insert negativity here) - and on balance the positive benefits outweigh the chance of offending a few individuals who have repeatedly shown themselves incapable of anything other than mud-slinging. As far as provocation goes, this thread - very deliberately - doesn't hold a faint candle to a great deal of contentious and inflammatory drivel I read here, which is another inescapable reason your points are invalid.

SBowie
04-03-2009, 10:18 AM
I personally needed 1 more forum than there was available in hardcore to do my congratulations. I chose here.How dare you utter a non-critical word in public. :twak:

frantbk
04-03-2009, 12:14 PM
You seem to feel you are qualified to read minds and offer judgments on that basis. Amazing. I'll tell you exactly why I posted this, and you can deny it or decry it as you please.

And you don't feel that you are qualified, that your judgment is superior to others to pat the NewTek team on the back after YOU felt the NewTek TEAM carried this terrible burden of public abuse. Abuse that was the fallout of NewTek's decision in implementing the HardCore program, and limiting the amount of information after the Core melt down emails.

Why do you feel you are qualified and your judgment is the basis for a burden and an abuse that the development Team carried? NewTek made their decision months before they implemented it. A reasonable person would assume that they were well aware of the downside to their decision weeks if not months before they did it and were prepare for the fallout. because NewTek took responsibility of the fallout there is no abuse and there is no burden for them to carry.


I felt (and feel) that a) the dev team deserves a public pat on the back, esp. after some of the abuse they have quietly borne, and b) I knew there were some here wondering if the Q1 target had been met, and this thread answers that for them without breaching confidentiality. All of the rest of the devious machinations come from your fertile little imagination, as does the allegedly horrendous offense this thread poses to the tender sentiments of those poor little lambs who hang out here. The facts clearly bear out everything I have said.

B.S. plain B.S. The fact that Chuck posted the beta was released in a thread just shows how much B.S. you need to spout to keep from taking any responsibility. The fact that I've called your thread politically incorrect,.. is just that politically incorrect. The NewTek development team has suffered no abuse or burden that they didn't create because of the companies decision on HardCore and information.


Was I aware that some few might use this thread as yet another way to spread vitriol? It occurred to me, but I hoped not (since it really requires vigorous imagination to find a way to insert negativity here) - and on balance the positive benefits outweigh the chance of offending a few individuals who have repeatedly shown themselves incapable of anything other than mud-slinging. As far as provocation goes, this thread - very deliberately - doesn't hold a faint candle to a great deal of contentious and inflammatory drivel I read here, which is another inescapable reason your points are invalid.

If the NewTek development team needs this much positive re-enforcement, then you're calling them special kids with special needs. there too weak to do their job, so we have to treat them with special care for the next 8 months. Have mercy,.. what is the quota on pats-on-the-back per month so the development team doesn't loose focus and not produce Lightwave Core?

The only mud-slinging is at you for treating this development team like a bunch of special need kids. There not kids, their grownups with a grownup's job to do. Why don't you try treat them like adults. What you are doing is the usual fawn-a-cation of fanboyism a.k.a brown nosing with no real purpose.

SBowie
04-03-2009, 12:23 PM
I did not see a public post from Chuck, but it probably wouldn't have changed anything. You continue to sidestep the main point, as you did in the exchange below.


Undeniably some do, as they've joined in here - and I suspect they actually represent a much larger group. I've pointed this out above, and it is clearly unrefuted, but you are choosing to ignore it.


Which comes back to the question. Just how many forums do you HC members need to do your ta-da's and congrats to the NewTek team? 5, 10, 20,...150. there has never been any disagreement that giving the NewTek team a congrats in the HC forum wasn't politically incorrect. the point is there is not point here in this forum.You quote my statement, and then proceed to ignore its content. There are (very clearly) people in this forum who are not also in the HC forum who joined in to support the sentiment expressed. Not being HC members, they would have no access to the HC forums to do so, nor perhaps even to be aware of the achievement. They have every right to join in, and I merely gave them a heads up and a place to do so. As I said before, that point stands un-refuted (evasion isn't refutation).

With respect, I really don't feel any need to pursue this. If a simple thank you seems so outrageous to you that you terribly aggrieved, carry on.

Kuzey
04-03-2009, 01:21 PM
Which comes back to the question. Just how many forums do you HC members need to do your ta-da's and congrats to the NewTek team? 5, 10, 20,...150. there has never been any disagreement that giving the NewTek team a congrats in the HC forum wasn't politically incorrect. the point is there is not point here in this forum.



I must be missing out on something but can you link to those 5, 10, 20,...150 forums. Now, if by a forum you mean this one...the Newtek forums, all I see is one thread and most likely another thread exists in the hardcore section. Big deal, it's not like every Core member is starting their own thread on the topic of hi fives etc.

As for other 3d forums, then I'm sure the fact that the Core is in the hands of users is news and there is mostly likely threads there too. Again.....big deal.

Kuzey

frantbk
04-03-2009, 01:53 PM
I did not see a public post from Chuck, but it probably wouldn't have changed anything. You continue to sidestep the main point, as you did in the exchange below.

What point is that? That you are trying to give the development team a pat on the back.

Or your letting everyone, who isn't a HC member know that the beta is out?

If it is the last one why do you assume you have the justification to jump ahead of NewTek in announcing information to the general forum about Lightwave Core? Lightwave Core is their product line, not yours.

According to the none-NDA agreement between you and NewTek you kinda got big in your pants spilling the beans about the beta to the general public before NewTek. It's a good thing Chuck posted in a thread before you. Some might not think you are a good team player because you posed ahead of a official NewTek statement to the general public (was there even an official statement to the general public?).


You quote my statement, and then proceed to ignore its content. There are (very clearly) people in this forum who are not also in the HC forum who joined in to support the sentiment expressed. Not being HC members, they would have no access to the HC forums to do so, nor perhaps even to be aware of the achievement. They have every right to join in, and I merely gave them a heads up and a place to do so. As I said before, that point stands un-refuted (evasion isn't refutation).

Which comes back to you not following you agreement with NewTek to not talk about HC forum information in the general forum. So you admit you broke your agreement with NewTek. It's not HC members responsibility to keep the general forum informed about Core - that's NewTeks call on what they want to give out. If Chuck hadn't posted in a thread before you, you've just proved that you can't be trusted with Lightwave Core information. Once you read this you will not take any responsibility that you jumped the gun on NewTek.


With respect, I really don't feel any need to pursue this. If a simple thank you seems so outrageous to you that you terribly aggrieved, carry on.

Well, at least your bad judgment is still at 100%. You keep saying you don't feel any need to pursue, and my points are invalid. The fact is my points are valid and they are on target and they are hitting with great effect. You keep coming back to everything I post. Why do you have such a need to prove me wrong, and declare me wrong?

The fact is my view is just as valid as yours and it is just as correct and politically incorrect as yours, but you can't see that - why is that?

You end with I'm terribly aggrieved. I'm not aggrieved, I'm in a very good mood. I don't care if the NewTek development team gets a pat on the back, or a boot up their butts. You on the other hand, feel that the team and the general community need to praise the release of the 1Q beta. Why is that?

Why do you feel the need to keep people informed when Lightwave Core is NewTek's product line? That's NewTek's responsibility to decide when and what to release to the general public. If these people in the general forum were so in need of giving the development team a pat-on-the-back shouldn't the development team respond with more videos about lightwave Core? Shouldn't kindness be rewarded with kindness in return?

Or is this just a one-way street you are promoting. Which in the end is still the act of fawn-a-cation.

*Pete*
04-03-2009, 02:12 PM
Why do you have such a need to prove me wrong, and declare me wrong?


actually...YOU started it.

you were the one who came into this otherwise positive thread with an urge to prove everyone wrong and that our opinion and behaviour is flawed.

i see nobody standing next to you arguing the same stuff as you do, nobody.

....you are ALONE with your opinion, im not saying that you are wrong becouse im sure you feel that you are correct..doesnt matter for me.

but you must look around you and see that the only one who felt insulted by this thread was YOU, nobody else..not a soul, of severak thousand forum members, only YOU.

more people agree with SBowie than with YOU...but hey, who am i to say that you are wrong?

propably you are right...perhaps we planned this all along on the private, elite HARDCORE forums, SBowie would post a "congratulations" thread just to piss YOU off...well planned and well targeted as it hit only YOU.

id like to congratulate ALL HARDCORE members who took part in this action to annoy YOU and also give a special thanks to all the non hardcore forumers who been behaving very nicely and neutral in this thread.

...after all, everyone KNOWs that all we wanted to do, was to annoy YOU, and it worked.


there...now i spilled the beans.


for the rest of this thread...talk to the :stop:


i had it with you....again.

SBowie
04-03-2009, 02:15 PM
You really still have not dealt with the main point. There are clearly people in this General Community who are interested in Core, and they showed that by joining in. This makes the topic an undeniably fitting one for the forum.

You've stopped harping about that, though, since it's a lost cause ... and now you're (belatedly) veering away from that point and attempting to make it about who posted the congrats ... but as we've already established, I am a member of the general community too, and can post my view freely as do others.

I'm pretty careful about what I reveal and where, and if NewTek feels I overstep I'm very sure I'll hear about it - from them. History has shown the moderators to be exceptionally tolerant, as witness much of the completely nasty crap posted in this forum, but I would take their counsel to heart. You'll just have to deal with it if I do not accord you the same rights to decide who can say what as I do the hosts of this forum .

I was told long ago about an old African proverb that made a lot of sense to me. I don't really know if the provenance is accurate or not, but it goes like this:

"If a man is of a mind to beat his dog, he will not lack for a stick. ..."

People with an axe to grind or who are full of sour grapes generally keep scratching around trying to find something to justify their point of view, and nothing anyone says or does will satisfy them. They just go on to gripe about some other point. It's not my responsibility to convert these, nor do I expect to do so. Neither do I cave in to verbal bullying - but I just can't be bothered with all of this negativity masquerading as righteous indignation.

frantbk
04-03-2009, 04:25 PM
So, just so I'm clear on the rules - virtually endless threads in which people rant and heckle about various Core issues are fine, but a modest thread in the very same forum to politely offer 'congrats' to some hard-working people is inappropriate? I suppose any positive mention of NewTek staff or accomplishments is likewise banned? It's a very strange world we live in.

Just so those of you who are saying I started this. This is the original post that I responded to. A person whining about "the rules" that his thread seems to be in violation of. Yes I did start the process of pointing out to him that his thread has, and is politically incorrect here in this forum. Like now is just like then. That person doesn't want to take responsibility for the downside to this thread. All of you can blame everybody else about who's fault this is (which really shows just how much you lack in seeing the big picture).

There is no right and there is no wrong view here. But this thread is still politically incorrect because many of you are trying to force an issue of righteousness of one groups conduct over that of the other groups conduct.

All the reason given against the congrats being in this forum are correct in their view. All the reason given for political incorrectness are right. Anyone reading this thread should be asking the question of "why you this other group have to be right in giving a congrats to a team of developers that have been working on this project for the last 2 years for meeting a deadline that the developers had to meet. I wonder what kind of noise you make when the NT team actually meets a deadline that has some real importance.

jburford
04-03-2009, 05:21 PM
Sorry guys, but I have been out of the loop for a while.... where in the heck do I get my Core Download and Keys...? Paid for it way back, got the welcome thanks for the order and that was it. Was able to enter Register thing but nothing more. What did I miss?

Cheers

Hopper
04-03-2009, 05:30 PM
<*laugh*> You guys ... you crack me up. Well done on some prime entertainment. I love reading these threads...

Oh ... and a special shout out to our good buddy frantbk for making it all possible...

...................................:cry:.......... ................. <--- You
_____________HardCORE Rocks!_______________ <--- fence
:neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: <--- HardCORE Members

........ (was this necessary? Surely not.... Was it funny?..... HELL YEAH!!!) .........

IMI
04-03-2009, 05:34 PM
Sorry guys, but I have been out of the loop for a while.... where in the heck do I get my Core Download and Keys...? Paid for it way back, got the welcome thanks for the order and that was it. Was able to enter Register thing but nothing more. What did I miss?

Cheers

I think you wandered into the wrong thread.
This is the CORE thread where frantbk makes an *** out of himself.
You want one of those other CORE threads where questions are being answered.
Down the hall, first door on the left. ;)

But just to save you the trouble, I believe you have to go to your downloads page on the general LW site, not anywhere here on the Newtek forums.
And clear your browser's NT forum cookies or else you might not see your HC forum access.

IMI
04-03-2009, 05:43 PM
There is no right and there is no wrong view here.


Actually, there is.
YOUR view is wrong, as usual, and based on some very ostensibly bizarre and mentally deficient thinking, to boot. :neener:

frantbk
04-03-2009, 05:43 PM
The last laugh is really mine HardCore Members. I've just demonstrated to everyone who is wondering what the HardCore membership is really made up of.

You are shaping the future of Lightwave Core and the image of HardCore membership, not I. If this is your best effort then you really are making a stellar product. :lol:

IMI
04-03-2009, 05:52 PM
The last laugh is really mine HardCore Members. I've just demonstrated to everyone who is wondering what the Hardcore membership is really made up of.



Just for the sake of those who don't have that keen insight into your severely abnormal thinking process, please explain in exact terms what the "Hardcore membership is really made up of".

Go ahead, please. Hammer the final nails into your own coffin so we can get this over with already.

Hopper
04-03-2009, 05:53 PM
The last laugh is really mine HardCore Members. I've just demonstrated to everyone who is wondering what the HardCore membership is really made up of.

mmmmm nope. Not really. You've just demonstrated just how easily your personality can make people dislike you.



You are shaping the future of Lightwave Core and the image of HardCore membership, not I.
Phew! Is that a promise? Oh please please please, let it be true.

My father always taught me to never argue with idiots, because people wouldn't be able to tell you apart. I guess I slipped a little.

jburford
04-03-2009, 05:54 PM
Hmnn, gotta go check out the other threads then... It does show up on my products but not my downloads..... go fish.

jayroth
04-03-2009, 05:58 PM
While all of us here at NewTek appreciate the sentiment in which this thread started, clearly it is getting out of hand, now. Time to close it.