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View Full Version : Stop the train Newtek; this is where this Hobbyist gets off!



rkphelps
03-29-2009, 03:00 PM
Iím going to do a little bloviating and venting here, Itís long so I suggest you grab a beer before reading further. :D

I got on the Newtek Lightwave Train back around version 5 and have purchased every upgrade since. As a 3D hobbyist who has never made a cent with all the software I owned this has added up to quite a chunk of change. Sometimes I feel more like an addicted Software collector than a 3D Artist, as on the whole there is no way I can justify the cost of this hobby. Like most expensive hobbies we spend the money for enjoyment and to satisfy a need, in this case my need to satisfy my sense of creativity cravings.

My background is in 3d Cad and for over 20 years designed precision aerospace components with high end Cad software. But my passion has always been 3d artistry which is a whole different ball game and skill set which to my dismay I have little talent.
Back when I started using Lightwave 5.5 I thought I would eventually make my own animated movie someday with this software. The more I learned the more I realized how hard and time consuming this 3d stuff really is. It was always that next upgrade with its new bells and whistles surly would get me closer to being able to fulfill my quest. While some things did get easier the software got deeper and more sophisticated with each release allowing you true 3d artists out there to do jaw dropping stuff. All these new capabilities keep moving the goalposts down the field and now maybe that dream of Robís animated film may have passed me by.

In Todayís economy the cost of my hobby and the real possibilities of what I can really achieve with it, needs to be looked at in a different light. I realize Iíll never have the skills of Timothy Albee and Iím not about to move to a one room shack in Alaska. :D

Which brings me to a crossroads with my hobby as Newtek takes Lightwave in a new direction with Core. The cost in the past for an upgrade after itís release has been about $500.00 and with Newtek releasing paid upgrades approx. every 2 years that works out to about $250.00 a year. Newtek also sweetened many of those upgrades with additional goodies which worked as they got my off the fence many times, remember Vue Software, DFX composite software, and LWcad, ect. Now Newtek will charge almost $700.00 for an upgrade after core is released which moves it out of my hobbyist comfort range.

ďI thought Hyper Inflation wasnít supposed to start until 2010 in this countryĒ

From $500.00 with goodies to $700.00 and no goodies is quite a Jump in price in this economy. Before you jump on me about why not just join the $399.00 (now) $499.00(future) yearly maintenance program, thatís still $150-$250 or more a year increase over the $250.00 plus goodies for past upgrades! Remember most hobbyists need to know what they are buying to pull the trigger and that includes specifics on whatís included as well as reviews of the new release. I donít blame Newtek they have to do what they have to do and they arenít the only ones doing it Ė have you seen the increase in Vue prices? I donít know where they think they go to increase market share, but my guess is higher end Professionals and compete with the Autodeskís of the world not the hobbyists and they may be right. I waited for more Info on Core hoping against hope they would show me something that would knock my socks off, but what little Iíve seen isnít enough for me to stay on board. My opinion is they should have waited another year before announcing Core, so more could be revealed. Sorry for rambling on Ė I would like to thank Newtek for giving me a fun ride on the Lightwave Train all these years.:thumbsup:

Rob

mattclary
03-29-2009, 03:11 PM
I got on the Newtek Lightwave Train back around version 5 and have purchased every upgrade since.

Soooooo... You should remember when the price of LightWave was... what? About $2000?

Me thinks thou dost whine too much.

You can get CORE for $395 if you buy now, so obviously, it's not about the money.

Who knows what pricing will really come out to next release of CORE?

And FYI, I am also a hobbiest. Never made a dime with it.

I find your lack of faith in NewTek... disturbing.

OrvilleB
03-29-2009, 03:17 PM
I am a retired certified science/math teacher. I bought Strata 3d years ago to do simple animations for my students. In 2006 I got a competitive upgrade to Lightwave, even though I doubt if I could animate anything good enough to put on U-Tube, much less make money from it. I don't want to be left behind. I even set aside $399 of my slim retirement money this month to buy Core. Then I happened to go to the Wolfram site. I had version 4 of their Mathematica software. Last year, I thought about upgrading it, but found that my version didn't even qualify for upgrading. I had to either pay about $2500 or get out. That was no decision at all. Well, it seems, hard times made Wolfram come to their senses. They offered a Home Version for $295, so I used my Core money to upgrade. I will still use 9.6. I bought a few books about Blender. I will continue to look for some reason to buy Core, but I will not foolishly spend my money for "a pig in a poke" as the old saying goes.

akademus
03-29-2009, 04:39 PM
Well,
I guess it all comes down to being profitable or not. 3D is an expensive hobby and if it wasn't my profession I'd rather be sculpting or painting than messing with wires and nodes.

2 cents

Dexter2999
03-29-2009, 04:39 PM
For a pure hobby, I would urge you to look long and hard at Blender. Any professional commercial app. can really add up over the years. And like you said, in current economic times you have to be realistic about these things.

Keep having fun with 9.6. I know I will as it does pretty much all I ever needed it to do.

COBRASoft
03-29-2009, 04:54 PM
$399.00 seems a lot to pay for a hobby. But then again, how much cost photography, diving, skiing, ... I guess those cost all more than $ 399.00 per year, no? It all depends how much time you spend with the software during that year. If you spent 2 hours a day with it, than it becomes a lot cheaper than going to the movies.

Perception is the key I guess.

SplineGod
03-29-2009, 06:44 PM
Theres alot of free or very cheap 3d and 2d apps. If I were doing this strictly has a hobby Id go for blender.

hrgiger
03-29-2009, 06:47 PM
Yes, if I couldn't afford to upgrade to CORE, I'd be learning blender right now. But I'd probably save some money and look at buying the application that's best going to suit my needs. Maybe by that time, CORE will suit your needs, maybe it won't. But you do have options.

Snosrap
03-29-2009, 07:11 PM
I went ahead and got in on the Core deal. $395 guaranteed upgrade price for what NT says should be on a more regular yearly basis equates to $1.08 a day. Chump change. A Coke or a coffee a day. A no brainer. Especially considering we've all, for the most part, have been begging for a re-write for the last seven years or so. I do use LW professionally, but I have my own license for my personal use. (I got tired of bringing my dongle home at night.) We will be updating to Core at work as well in the next day or two to get in on the $395 deal.

Serling
03-29-2009, 09:24 PM
Good points rk. I have a bit of a different problem. I do use 9.6 for broadcast work, but I'm a video editor by profession, so while LightWave has allowed me to dabble in 3D for broadcast, my upgrade bucks go to editing and compositing software (Avid Media Composer, Photoshop and Combustion).

I'll not be upgrading to Core within the foreseeable future, but still intend to use 9.6 for what I can do in 3D. I think it will remain a solid app for at least a couple more years and, by that time, you may find - like I will - Core will have had a few of the "bugs" worked out and be worth the price of admission, even for a hobbyist.

In the meantime, I have an Avid upgrade I have to purchase, because that's where I make my money and Core will have to wait.

Thanks for the post.

OrvilleB
03-29-2009, 09:46 PM
"Sometimes I feel more like an addicted Software collector than a 3D Artist."
That is the part of the original message that I am thinking the most about. I am selling things on eBay right now that will probably get me close to the $395. Even if they don't sell, I could easily buy this software with little financial pain. I have two opposite types of emotions right now: 1. I didn't like what happened with Mathematica. I spent a great deal of time learning it. I felt really bad when I got 3 versions behind. I will feel bad if the rest of you move on to Core, and I can't travel with you. 2. As I stated, I just bought the new version of Mathematica 7.1 which very different from version 4.1. Also, I'm working through an online course in Photoshop. I doubt very much if my old brain could take much more. Do I need all the hassles of a Beta software? Do I need to try to learn a 3rd software package? I know I am a software junkie. I have a complete set of Macromedia software (Fireworks, Dreamweaver, Flash, Freehand, etc.) sitting on my computer right now that I doubt I will never learn, and I don't want to go through the hassles of selling it because it has an educational license.

OrvilleB
03-29-2009, 10:06 PM
One more thought. I guess some of you professionals and talented amateurs wonder why people like me bother spending my money and time on something I am not good at. Well, I was born with about zero talent in everything, but it hasn't kept me from living. Right now, at 63, I'm training again for the Assault on Mt. Mitchell, 105 miles of grueling cycling pain that ends at an elevation 6,000 feet higher than the starting point. Last year, I nearly won. (Hey, only about 550 people finished in front of me!) The last 30 miles was just about all up the side of the mountain in 96 degree heat. Was it worth it? You bet! I too, have a dream of a short film. If I ever do it, it will take hundreds of hours of work and lots of money.It will be terrible and will be placed on U-Tube. Will it be worth it? You bet!

inquisitive
03-29-2009, 10:38 PM
One more thought. I guess some of you professionals and talented amateurs wonder why people like me bother spending my money and time on something I am not good at. Well, I was born with about zero talent in everything, but it hasn't kept me from living. Right now, at 63, I'm training again for the Assault on Mt. Mitchell, 105 miles of grueling cycling pain that ends at an elevation 6,000 feet higher than the starting point. Last year, I nearly won. (Hey, only about 550 people finished in front of me!) The last 30 miles was just about all up the side of the mountain in 96 degree heat. Was it worth it? You bet! I too, have a dream of a short film. If I ever do it, it will take hundreds of hours of work and lots of money.It will be terrible and will be placed on U-Tube. Will it be worth it? You bet!

[Tangent]
Well Orville, sounds to me the material for your short film is right there in front of you - Age 63, Assault on Mt.Mitchell, while your intention may have been an animated film you could do a video documentary as well, not just of your personal experience but also of the others who share your passion.

In regards to rkphelps post, it's all choices and what your needs are, I like the new direction of Core: Python, Linux, really wish they implement Character Animation so I dont have to keep thinking about Maya (which I cannot afford), in my case also due to the current economic times I cannot upgrade, I do hope that times get better, and also that Newtek extends the offer, although I am still wondering exactly what we will get at the end of the year.

OrvilleB
03-29-2009, 11:02 PM
I have thought about a short film on cyclists. Our Wednesday night ride/Mexican feast/beer fest is amazing to see. We have every type of person imaginable, from retirees to doctors, from people who can burn up the road, to people who can barely finish the course (We leave in three groups, and naturally, I'm in the slowest group). I have seen some amazing things like a 65+ year old retired Delta Force soldier go after a rude motorist on his bike. The man showed more sense than manners and left the scene in a hurry.
There was a short film made about the Assault on Mt. Mitchell before I started riding it. I saw it when I was 59 and planning my first ride. It nearly scared me out of trying. The film I had in mind was a short, and I think, funny film on evolution. It would be educational, and I would gladly release it to the general public. I have all the images in my head. I have my dialogue. I could model the characters. I just don't know how to animate it. I guess I'm just scared of the work it will take.

colkai
03-30-2009, 02:18 AM
$399.00 seems a lot to pay for a hobby.

Dunno, factor in how much folks spend on booze or pizza over a year. :p

Seriously though, I do photography and music, both of those have cost me way more than LW has over the years. That said, times are now very hard and I personally did a lot of thinking before upgrading.

I think if money is now an issue, go with Blender, or the free version Of some other package you can pick up off PC magazines these days.

Of course, LW is still fully operational in the form it is at present, so the only thing you lose, is the newer features. :)

biliousfrog
03-30-2009, 03:35 AM
It's not an 'either/or' option, if you're happy with 9.6 stick with that...lots of people are. I'll wait to see where CORE is in a year or so and then look at my options, if something else catches my eye in the meantime I'll switch to that.

I've been using Lightwave since 5.6 and I've barely scratched the surface. There's so many things that I can't do in it, much more than I can, because I use it for work and I tend to get the same type of jobs. The advantage to being purely a hobbyist is that you probably have more time to 'play' with the new features. I'm sure that there's a load of things that you can still learn from 9.6...do you really NEED to buy CORE or switch to something else?...probably not.

jaxtone
03-30-2009, 04:33 AM
Damn you dragged me into something really sensitive here... In my opinion youīre definitely wrong when you announce that you were born with no talent at all! How many guys in here could even imagine doing a ride like that when they are 63? I am 56 this year and I must confess the latest 20 years of computerized work and all bad habits that comes with it have probably put me a lot of miles/years closer to the date Iīll be put to rest under my gravestone! Thinking about weeks with no sleep, filled with junk food and less than a few drops of eater each day just because the hypnotic effect when youīre brain goes digital.

I am working with film as well as 3D and agree with the guys in here that already gave you advices of a video documentary. The reason I agree with them is of course that the film might be done in no time at all compared to all the work that craves to produce a 3D animated alter ego!

This doesnīt mean that 3D isnīt an option because just as mentioned earlier there are both free alternatives that gives you most of the stuff you need to get the job done in a hobby basis and there are also fast but sometimes more artistic alternatives such as clay and miniatures that can do a lot of great things. Remembering a work shop with one of the top guys at Rythm nī Hues many years ago... he said that a good animator doesnīt focus on the tools. Itīs the ideas that counts!

Good luck and by the way this might interest you:

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/press_materials/?page=..%2FPRIndex&date=March%2024,%202009

http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/

http://www.cornucopia3d.com/resources.php?sid=7f20bd99758c10c154c00978aa959263&synch_f=1&_sid_=9rhvmaa74ra6tc115r3cabi005



One more thought. I guess some of you professionals and talented amateurs wonder why people like me bother spending my money and time on something I am not good at. Well, I was born with about zero talent in everything, but it hasn't kept me from living. Right now, at 63, I'm training again for the Assault on Mt. Mitchell, 105 miles of grueling cycling pain that ends at an elevation 6,000 feet higher than the starting point. Last year, I nearly won. (Hey, only about 550 people finished in front of me!) The last 30 miles was just about all up the side of the mountain in 96 degree heat. Was it worth it? You bet! I too, have a dream of a short film. If I ever do it, it will take hundreds of hours of work and lots of money.It will be terrible and will be placed on U-Tube. Will it be worth it? You bet!

meshpig
03-30-2009, 05:39 AM
"All this Art"?; such a lot of brown-nosing and for what? The purpose of which has also long since dwindled or been subdued by a petty semantic squabble.

I'd love to be able to design precision aerospace components. At least planes fly.

m

mattclary
03-30-2009, 08:01 AM
Well,
3D is an expensive hobby

Not when you really think about it. ~$400 every two years. I spend WAY more than that on beer. I have a buddy who races motorcylces, spends WAY more than me. How much does a day of golfing cost? Bet if that was your hobby, you would spend way more than $400 every two years.

OrvilleB
03-30-2009, 08:27 AM
I wasn't complaining when I said "no talent." In a way, it is a blessing. I think that if I were like a lot of you and discovered I had a great talent, say, in art when I was a kid, I would have spent my whole life in it. When I finished in the bottom of nearly everything I tried, I kept trying, so now, even though I'm not great at anything, I good at many, many things. And as far as spending money on a hobby, I took up cycling at 55, and I have spent around $20,000 in the nearly nine years since, and I have friends who will spend over $10,000 on one bike.

Captain Obvious
03-30-2009, 09:12 AM
I do CG professionally, but I've spent way more money on photography over the years, depsite it only being a completely devoid-of-profit hobby...

praa
03-30-2009, 09:22 AM
Well,
if it wasn't my profession I'd rather be sculpting or painting than messing with wires and nodes.

I am so with you on that akademus...
to sit in front of a computer as a hobby is beyond my capacity to understand this freaky humain kind

i am happy to create 3d as a job but hell i still don't even understand gamers !
:help::hat:

airpainter
03-30-2009, 11:36 AM
I've been an artist all of my life, went to art school (traditional media) and I wanted to be able to do art with a computer. I tried to in the late 60's, but unless you were a programmer, it was next to impossible. And the only output we had was a pen plotter. Flash forward to the early 90's and I discovered a copy of Video Toaster magazine with something called Lightwave. I looked at all of the then existing software and decided that LW was the ticket. Found a adult vocational course that feature LW and took the course (taught by Grant Boucher, remember him?). That was it, bought an Amiga 4000 and the first unbundled version of LW. Did my best to teach myself 3D. Met some guys with the same ideas and was hired to do textures for a video game. Left my job as a scenic painter to become a texture artist/modeler. Today I do 3D with Rhino for my day job and just recently upgraded LW from 5.6 to 9.6 as well as buying Modo for a hobby.
Trying to relearn LW, learn Modo and using Rhino has my brain ready to explode! Each is just different enough that I find myself trying to use Rhino commands in LW and LW commands in Modo. I'm also one of those users over 60, so computers aren't completely natural to me the way it is for younger users.

Andyjaggy
03-30-2009, 11:43 AM
Well has it occurred to you maybe Newtek doesn't want Lightwave to be seen as a hobbyist program anymore? If you can't afford it go somewhere else.

Yeah I've spent waaaaaaaaaaay more money on photography equipment then 3D software over the years. Now that's an expensive hobby. I guess I should call up Cannon and tell them to lower the price on their cameras if they want hobbyist to continue to use them.

rkphelps
03-30-2009, 05:40 PM
In response to the following comments:

I find your lack of faith in NewTek... disturbing.

You can get CORE for $395 if you buy now, so obviously, it's not about the money.

Soooooo... You should remember when the price of LightWave was... what? About $2000?

I do CG professionally, but I've spent way more money on photography over the years, depsite it only being a completely devoid-of-profit hobby...

Well has it occurred to you maybe Newtek doesn't want Lightwave to be seen as a hobbyist program anymore? If you can't afford it go somewhere else.


In Newtek we trust:

Well Matt since you are disturbed (your words not mine) just kidding :D let me explain:

Never has Newtek asked us in the past to pony up and buy while giving us so little info on what we are buying, just give us your money trust us (aka have faith in Newtek) and we shall deliver. The best way for me to evaluate the future is to look at the past and if I had to grade all the past upgrades of Lightwave I purchased, it would look like this:

(My grades are based on my own opinion and general forum consensus so be nice)

A. Lightwave 6 series grade ďCĒ It didnít live up to the marketing hype.
B. Lightwave 7 series grade ďB-ďbetter than 6, it fixed a lot of problems.
C. Lightwave 8 series grade ďDĒ forum users were brutal on this series.
D. Lightwave 9 series grade ďB+Ē Their best series that would have had an ďAĒ but there were to many bugs with 9.0 not fixed until a year later in 9.2.

Look Iím not trying to beat up on Newtek I love the company, just donít ask me for money and not tell me what Iím getting for it. I should just trust them on Core even though based on past history Lightwave has had mixed results at best. The little info they did put out on Core was for a company in the video business (Tri-Core, Video Toaster, etc.) in a word Ė embarrassing. Good thing they are better at writing 3d software code. I do think that Newtek has just had itís best Lightwave release with 9.6 so the future looks encouraging, but can they finally get that ďAĒ with Core Ė I hope so, weíll see.

Future Costs:

So why is Newtek raising their prices so much with Core, It really doesnít matter as itís their right as a business, but itís probably one or more of the following:

A. The overall market is shrinking - maintain bottom line
B. Only market growth is in professional pipeline Ė no amateur growth
C. Reduced competition Ė From Autodesk buying them- result higher $
D. They need to recover R&D costs for Core
E. All of the above


I see a lot of people talking about things like Lightwave used to cost more, or $399.00 is less for an upgrade than past upgrades, or even that doing 3d as a hobby is cheaper than other hobbies.

Let me answer each:

A. Yes it is true Lightwave used to be more expensive, but Iím talking about upgrades and I donít remember upgrades ever approaching $2000.00. I remember in the early 80ís I was using Cad software that cost $50,000 a seat on a $100,000 Terminal tied into a multi million dollar main frame computer. In the 90ís it was down to $20,000 on a $30,000 Workstation and down to $5000 to $15,000 (based on configuration) on a $10,000 high speed PC. That was then and this is now Ė so I guess you are asking if I would pay more back then why not now? Because itís about ďValueĒ and this has always been subjective in dealing with cost and things are different now also from maturity of the 3d market to software competition to economy issues.

With regards to the cost for Core remember your initial cost of $399 doesnít get you a 3d package as robust as Lightwave 9. Sure there will be some new features, but itíll take a min of 2 years and more likely 3 years or more before you have in your hands something as robust and deep as 9.6. So itís not a decision on whether I should spend $399 itís do I want to spend $798 min to $1,197.00 or more on something I know very little about or as mature as Lightwave 9.6. Will Core be game changing technology worth the additional money? Who knows, Iíll have to reevaluate in 2 to 3 years on whether it will be worth it to buy back in then for $699 or more. Those are my current options if I want to stay in the Newtek Family which I might do if Core becomes something special which I truly think the guys at Newtek are capable of.

Letís look at the new pricing structure if it was implemented in 2006 for version 9:

*Yearly Maintenance Program

March 2006 - $399.00
July 2006 Ė Version 9 released
March 2007 - $399.00
March 2008 - $399.00
TotalÖÖ.....$1,197.00

New Upgrade after release
July 2006 buy V9 - $699.00

*Remember the $399.00 is only for Charter Members itís really going to cost $499.00 a year which would change the above figure to $1,497.00 ouch!

Before you jump on me about Newtek promising a major update during each year for paid members, major update is just a name as Newtek has and just like in the future determine what goes into each release. Translation? It means you are now going to pay for point releases and the only free stuff will be bug fixes with very few new features. Iíve also heard Core will allow them to create code at a much faster clip (Heard that same crap from Luxology, enough said there) and it will have to be because by Q4 Core release weíll be 31/2 years into the V9 to Core cycle, they better get 3 times faster with Core.

Expensive Hobbies:

Yes they can be expensive and itís an individual choice for each of us to make on their value on our Lives. In response to this narrow minded comment: ( "If you can't afford it go somewhere else") Choosing to not spend a certain amount on a hobby does not mean I canít afford it, Again itís whether itís features will give me return value on my investment, I donít make decisions on purchases based on what my check book tells me this week, like I guess others who make comments like the above do! I have and do spend a lot more on many of my hobbies making my 3d hobby rank far below others on the cost front, see some below:

A. Building StreetRods Ė 1932, 1933, 1936, Fords excess of $100,000+
B. Dedicated Home Theater Room Ė $25,000+ Just Electronic Hardware
C. Golf including traveling to Golf resorts Ė Lost count, many $$$
D. Bass Fishing W/ bass boat & travel to lakesĖLost count many $ again
E. Building workstation computers Ė I donít want even think about it
F. Software like Lightwave, Modo, PhotoShop, & many othersĖto much

Core as a hobbyist program:

"Well has it occurred to you maybe Newtek doesn't want Lightwave to be seen as a hobbyist program anymore?"

I guess you didnít read or comprehend my first post as this was my whole point and the main reason this hobbyist has decided to get off the Newtek train for now. Itís my opinion we are at a crossroads with Lightwave/Core and Newtek has decided that they have to go get market share from the professional Game and film pipe lines. If this leaves some of the amateurs on the outside looking in than so be it because they know in order to survive they have to figure out how to compete with the big gorilla in the room Ė Autodesk!

ďI know if I donít like it go get blender and donít let the door hit you in the ***!Ē

My point here is itís a sad time for some while exciting for others as Change affects people in different ways and Iíd like to just ask Newtek not to completely forget about the Amateur Lightwave/Core Hobbyists that have been a part of the Family for so many years.

I hope Newtek can figure out a way to make it easier to keep most of the hobbyists like me in the family down the road. Maybe they can do what the Cad companies do with modules where you have a base package like modeler/layout, and add-onís like Render, Animation, Hair, Cloth, Particles, etc. and you could upgrade areas as needed kind of like stereo components.

Another option Newtek would be a Coor Lite ĖďOh wait thatís a Beer Ė Cheers!Ē:beerchug:

zapper1998
03-30-2009, 06:09 PM
interesting thread.......yep

Hobbiest 50% of the Time..

General Modeler 50% of the Time..




What I make with LW each year pays for a new machine...
And some Software upgrades.
Last Job I did for a company they bought me 3DMAX8, with the upgrade to 3DMAX9 paid for, that was worth the Modeling work, the engineers tried, actually they bought a seat of Lightwave and 3dmax. and after 3 to 4 months tryng to figure out the software...
Some one mentioned [ I heard later ], to call some one thats knows how to do this, they called a whole bunch of companies, then they called me..
It was fun showing them how fast LightWave works, and the Engineers that use CAD all day, just were tickled some one in town knows how to use it...
The job was really fun at first, then came the Engineering changes after changes, and the change of the change, now go back to the original design we started with....OMG...
I never want to be an Engineer....
That was a few months ago....wow whata long week project..
What should of took a week took six months, but they paid me for all my time and processing time....
It Put enough money Money in the "BEER" Fund, I call it, to pay for a few years of upgrades and a "New I7 920 machine"....
+ a little for the BEER

Still Have not loaded up 3DMAX on the machine, dont think I will ever use it ...
LightWave does all I need to do..


Michael

Rod Seffen
03-30-2009, 06:17 PM
Unlike any other hobby, there are free to use ple versions of a lot of apps and completely free 3d apps in a lot of categories. Why would a hobbiest, who has no intention of ever becoming professional, want to spend money on a commercial one anyway, and why would any software developer care.
I would think it's an insult and embarrassment for any 3d app to be known as 'the hobbiest's app'.

rkphelps
03-30-2009, 06:33 PM
You make a good point Rod, But back in the day those free programs didn't exist and after learning the software of choice you became a fan and didn't want to downgrade to something else. Not a good reason I know and if I were starting out new today the free route would definitely be on my radar. Maybe that's why software developers may not care anymore - they figure they'll just lose to hobbiest to the free or low cost stuff.

OrvilleB
03-30-2009, 07:13 PM
Thanks rkphelps. I have learned more from you posts than the 10,000+ post on the Core thread. I agree. If I was back in 2006, I'd have downloaded Blender and spent nothing, but I knew nothing about 3d except that I wanted to learn it, and Lightwave was only about $500, not $3000 like the other names I recognized. I have now spent 3 years learning it, and I hate to give up on something I know. I now know almost nothing about Blender, but I am going to be learning it. I agree that Lightwave is heading that way. I could certainly be wrong, but I would expect it to cost nearly as much as Max in a couple of years. I also worry about the financial health of Newtek. I see no reason why a healthy company would release a product with close to zero information. I am really worried about the economy of the United States and the world. I have seen too many local and national companies fail. I have a question about Newtek's cash flow. I will predict that tomorrow will be one of the greatest days ever for Newtek. Hundreds or thousands of orders will come in. But what about April 1? How do they expect to get any money between tomorrow and the week before Core is released?

mikala
03-30-2009, 07:28 PM
Yup I too bet a good bunch of you while away hundreds of dollars down the toilet in booze a year. For the privilege of flushing! Great payoff.
Yet you whine about having to pay for a hobby that can occupy hours and hours of your time and perhaps at some point get you some money back.
Sorry I don't understand the math.

OrvilleB
03-30-2009, 07:32 PM
I hate beer, but I flushed 1.123432 tons of Coke/Pepsi last year

mikala
03-30-2009, 07:35 PM
I pay for a lot of my software by not buying things I want but buy the things I need.
You really want to continue buy it. If not why complain?

OrvilleB
03-30-2009, 07:40 PM
I'm not against Core. I sat aside the money in my budget this month to buy it. If they come out with several "wow" videos in the next 24 hours, I might buy it tomorrow. I will probably pay $495 sometime in November. I hope I am wrong about Newtek having cash problems or raising the price of Lightwave out of my reach. I just can't buy something under these conditions. When I upgraded from Strata 3D in 2006, I had a demo, online reviews, and hundreds of threads here on how it worked.

OrvilleB
03-30-2009, 07:50 PM
I hope I am not being negative. If you bought Core, I am certain you made the right decision for yourself. I have jumped from discussion to discussion. About half of them are downright ugly. I have been a member of this forum for 3 years and during that time, I might have made 10 posts. After tomorrow, I will probably make no more new posts for a while. I will spend more time learning 9.6 to see how much I will regret leaving Newtek. I will look into Blender to see if it offers anything. I will read post of people who have gotten Core. I will view all videos from Newtek. And as I said, in the end, I will probably buy Core before the $495 price expires

geo_n
03-30-2009, 08:35 PM
There are alternatives to hobbyist besides blender.
In Japan the popular 3d software for hobbyist is Shade. Its now version 10.5 and just released and can be bought for only 50US for the basic app. I think it was the main competition of lw here but now there's more shade hobbyist. Here's a sample movie http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp/modules/x_movie/x_movie_view.php?cid=1&lid=164

data3d
03-30-2009, 09:12 PM
One more thought. I guess some of you professionals and talented amateurs wonder why people like me bother spending my money and time on something I am not good at. Well, I was born with about zero talent in everything, but it hasn't kept me from living. Right now, at 63, I'm training again for the Assault on Mt. Mitchell, 105 miles of grueling cycling pain that ends at an elevation 6,000 feet higher than the starting point. Last year, I nearly won. (Hey, only about 550 people finished in front of me!) The last 30 miles was just about all up the side of the mountain in 96 degree heat. Was it worth it? You bet! I too, have a dream of a short film. If I ever do it, it will take hundreds of hours of work and lots of money.It will be terrible and will be placed on U-Tube. Will it be worth it? You bet!

Don't sell yourself short, Orville. You've obviously got the mental toughness and perseverance parts nailed down, and that's 95% of the battle :thumbsup:. I had played with Lightwave for 6 or 7 years as a hobbyist before I worked up the courage to show my work to a local studio. My work wasn't earth shattering, but it filled a need for those studios at the time, let me refine my skills in more of a professional production environment and the work more than paid for my hardware and upgrades. Over time, more opportunities have presented themselves, and although 3D is still a sideline for me, I've had the privilege to work with the likes of the History Channel, Discovery Health, PBS and others, and have more than enough projects to keep my evenings very busy. The funny thing is I still don't have mastery of 70% of the features Lightwave has to offer, and I still do quite well. I say grab the upgrade to Core, and convince the race organizers that you could model a beat up (but totally outrageous) mountain bike for their race poster next year, or that you could do a quick animation of the race route for use on the web and you could have a big piece of your upgrade paid for already. Never a better time to jump in!

Data3D

*Pete*
03-30-2009, 09:37 PM
I have a question about Newtek's cash flow. I will predict that tomorrow will be one of the greatest days ever for Newtek. Hundreds or thousands of orders will come in. But what about April 1? How do they expect to get any money between tomorrow and the week before Core is released?

how?....simple, the only way they can.


they have to make CORE competitive and FAST, they will have to get it to do basic things faster and easier than its competitors, they will have to make it do advanced things that its competitors can do.

they will also have to innovate in some areas to really front CORE as the future.


the plan is simple, be better than the rest.
all 3D apps work with the same set of rules and this applies to Maya and Max too...they will also try to be better than the rest.

so, why CORE?

becouse...to use a bicycling analogy :D ...LW 9.6 is an old bicycle, old, heavy frame, old wheels and a rusty chain...you can do a lot with it, you can oil the chain and you can pump air into its tires as NT did, but in the end, its the whole structure that will keep it down...

its just not made to be a winner in todays ever more competetive market.
Maya, Max and others are never, better bicycles...they are better from ground up, but still...even they do show signs of age.

CORE...is a new design, planned to be the latest, aerodynamic, lightweight and highspeed bicycle with discbrakes and all the latest.
potentially it is the bike for winners, but it is still at a design stage...will it make it?
it could fail, but if it wont it wont end up mediocre.

the question is, do you need the best bicycle to enjoy competing?...in the end it is still the rider who gets it all moving and an talente rider with an old bicycle will always beat a non talented rider on a new one...even if both would benefit of the new tech, it is not necessarily anything either of them will need.



good story btw...i once bicycled from Sweden to the mediterranian sea, alone and i also had colleques at work who still compete and regulary ran marathons at an age of more than 65

virtualcomposer
03-30-2009, 10:20 PM
I like the guys who mentioned the beer. LOL In my case it's coffee. I spend that much in 6 months counting Starbucks and canned coffee. I'm very happy with 9.6 and like others have said, just scratched the surface. 9.6 is amazing and it will help me in my endeavors for quite a while. I am, however, going to wait to see more about Core. I trust Newtek but in these unstable economic times, it's hard to know what to do. My wife and I are about to move in three days due to lack of work. We are moving to Denver or Colorado Springs since the economy there is stronger then 12% unemployment rate here in TN and it's rising every month!!!! I think I'll stick with 9.6 for a while. :) Ok now I'm just rambling. LOL

synergy543
03-30-2009, 10:36 PM
Hi Joshua, another VSL, DP and LW user here. Have you visited vi-control.net? I don't think I've seen you over there so you should check it out. Well, one thing I think is important to remember is that its more what you do with the tools that which toolset you use and certainly more can be done with 9.6 than I am capable of. Same with VSL (have you heard Jay Bacal's Rite of Spring on the Vienna site?). So regardless of the tools we choose, we can often accomplish more honing our own skills. Good luck with your move.

Cheers,

Greg

virtualcomposer
03-30-2009, 10:37 PM
Hi Joshua, another VSL, DP and LW user here. Have you visited vi-control.net? I don't think I've seen you over there so you should check it out. Well, one thing I think is important to remember is that its more what you do with the tools that which toolset you use and certainly more can be done with 9.6 than I am capable of. Same with VSL (have you heard Jay Bacal's Rite of Spring on the Vienna site?). So regardless of the tools we choose, we can often accomplish more honing our own skills. Good luck with your move.

Cheers,

Greg

Hey Greg,
Thanks for the encouragement. It's a scary world out there and encouragement goes along way. You're right about the tools. I'll check that site out you were talking about.

OrvilleB
03-31-2009, 12:45 AM
Keep hanging in there. I am sorry that things are tough in Tennessee. I was raised there. My father lost his job when I was a kid and he had to move around the country and send money back home. I had to move to South Carolina to get a teaching job in the 70's. My son is an electrical engineer and was recently moved from Washington DC to Mississippi by his company. We all survived an did fine. Talent and hard work will win out.

OrvilleB
03-31-2009, 12:54 AM
The analogy about the bike was very good. Last year I spent about $4000 on a new bike. My reasoning went like this: I was 62. It was better to have the extra time to ride the bike than to wait until I had more money and less time. I know that I made the right decision. Believe me, I am still on the fence. If I had made my mind up, I'd get off this Forum. Someone may still convince me before 12:00 strikes and the party is over. The biggest concern is not the money. It is the feeling that as the opening statement said: "Sometimes I feel more like an addicted Software collector than a 3D Artist," I don't want to chase another wild dream when I know so little about 9.6. My greatest motivation is that I don't want to be left behind and lose on something great. I'll keep reading and posting until the end of this day, and then the decision is over for several months.

Psyhke
03-31-2009, 01:09 AM
If money is not the key concern, then there's no rush really. There's a lot of time between now and the end of the year to find out new information as it arrives.

calilifestyle
03-31-2009, 01:27 AM
Not when you really think about it. ~$400 every two years. I spend WAY more than that on beer. I have a buddy who races motorcylces, spends WAY more than me. How much does a day of golfing cost? Bet if that was your hobby, you would spend way more than $400 every two years.

Yes but you know where your cash is going and know what you get in the end. As for core,your just hoping you get something by what ever timefame.

colkai
03-31-2009, 03:14 AM
I hope I am not being negative. If you bought Core, I am certain you made the right decision for yourself.

Oh indeed, worry not, your posts have been very clear and 'sane'. :)

It was a big choice for me this year as finance has become tight, but thankfully the wife backs me up as she knows how much enjoyment I get from doing 3D. Maybe one day I'll even get paid for summat, so far it's all been charity work, (my choice though). :)


The biggest concern is not the money. It is the feeling that as the opening statement said: "Sometimes I feel more like an addicted Software collector than a 3D Artist," I don't want to chase another wild dream when I know so little about 9.6.

To be honest, chasing wild dreams is what it is all about. I never ever thought I'd be able to produce the stuff I do now, no fun striving to reach things you know you can without tooo much effort. I'm approaching 50 myself and feel I am only just beginning to start to understand little bits. Core is going to be a whole new ride, but I am a strong believer in working the dream is what life is about. :) Stop learning, start dying, got to keep teh ole grey matter ticking over. :D

hrgiger
03-31-2009, 04:06 AM
Well not to make it sound even more expensive but I was under the impression that paid editions would come closer to annually rather then bi-annually. People are saying $400-$500 every two years but it seems strange that a hardcore membership would only be good for a year with updates only ever two. It does sound optimistic to think that CORE would be upgraded every year but it's too early to tell the pace of development.

*Pete*
03-31-2009, 04:08 AM
The biggest concern is not the money. It is the feeling that as the opening statement said: "Sometimes I feel more like an addicted Software collector than a 3D Artist," I don't want to chase another wild dream when I know so little about 9.6. My greatest motivation is that I don't want to be left behind and lose on something great. I'll keep reading and posting until the end of this day, and then the decision is over for several months.

all you loose by waiting is a hundred dollar...nothing more, all things considered you should wait.

as you self noticed..you havent taken out the most of 9.6 yet, so you will propably not produce more or better with CORE either.

why so many are so willing to jump on the CORE train is becouse they actually have hit the limits in LW..the ceiling and the walls that stop creativity.
if you have not faced those limits, CORE will do little to you...unless there is something specific you are looking for in CORE, i would suggest to keep using 9.6

it can do that animation you want to do...remember, Jurassic park was created with software worse than you have at home, and computers slower than yours too.

many small and big movies have involved LW....your talent perhaps is not enough for hollywood (the fewest of us ever get there), but it is surely enough for your animation...all you need is to get started and you learn by doing, learn by necessity.

that, and of course this forum...get stuck, ask for help. :D

beverins
03-31-2009, 09:52 AM
Look at it like this..

$395 offer ends today, but still valid through today

April 1st it goes to $499

When Lightwave 10 / Core V1 is released - Q4? Q1 2010? the price for both the software and the subscription with it shoots to $1495.

beverins
03-31-2009, 09:56 AM
at any rate - I would say stick with 9.6 - and spend money on some plugins or what-have-you. 9.6 is VERY powerful, nothing wrong with it in general... yes, there are deficiencies for people who have gotten used to doing things in other programs to be sure, but to be honest 9.6 is every bit as powerful as Softimage 7.5, Maya 2009, Max 2009 and the rest of them.

To be sure, to make LW do the SAME things that you can in ICE in Softimage, for example takes a lot more workarounds and finagling and manual labor, but in the end... the ONLY thing that matters is the IMAGE YOU MAKE. How you got there, nobody really cares about!

rewire69
03-31-2009, 10:35 AM
Well I couldnt help but respond to the post by rkphelps when I got to the forum and read it. I am not really a core user how ever I have messed with it a few times etc.I got a friend who uses it as a hobby and for business.But anyhow as for me I am a tricaster user to let you know.I bought my system a little over a year ago and shoot events like concerts etc on our site to people can see them.I am now 25k into this for video gear such as the system its self and camera's, stands,lines,good room mics. I have just now started really making money at it.I am pretty sure this year is the year for me and my website will be very well known if all goes rite.I couldnt help but think of the fact that you buying this program and wanting to do a movie or an animation and havent started is sort of your fault.Its you holding you back more or less.I had the same issues you had.Accept my recent upgrade costed 1,000.00 for the 2.5 for tricaster.I realized I was spreading myself to thin in what I was doing, trying to do it all so to speak and that doesnt work.So I got the upgrade with a lot of new killer features and now I am going to take time to learn them.It might take awhile but ill get through it.So it sounded like with the ton of software you have already.You can make your animation movie you want.You just got to start doing it.I was thinking you should take the cad works of the parts you use for aero space stuff make them animations or some sort of custom character and run with that. I can see it now an evil ram air turbine, shooting out everything that get's in its way as it gets shreded up in the blades.I do know in the world of creation and things that were all sort of doing it definately takes baby steps. some times this forum will drive you nuts trying to find answers and getting help from people.But chances are if you start working on the project you want to do.Their are a lot of guys here that have enough cranial-kung-fu, to help if you get stuck on something. My final thought is quit buying software you dont know how to use till ya learn about what ya have.Ask for help when you need it and the next thing youll be posting that footage on utube. I only say that to you because It dawned on me myself $15,000.00 dollars ago out of the 25k I have spent.Oh and i hope you do the movie you want so we can all sit down and watch it some day.

kfinla
03-31-2009, 01:04 PM
I've always been under the impression NT are planning to put out major releases every 12 months, I'm sure its been stated thats the plan.. expect Core 2.0 Q4.. 2010.. so ya.. 395$ a year hobby. In fact that is the cheapest option. If you wait and buy in in November at 495.. your upgrade to core 2.0 to will also go up to 495.. and I expect the core 3 upgrade will be possibly more still, 695? since thats the final core upgrade price :( The 395$ charter membership price is only 1 upgrade, core 1.0, and 2.0)

cresshead
03-31-2009, 02:00 PM
Well I couldnt help but respond to the post by rkphelps when I got to the forum and read it. I am not really a core user how ever I have messed with it a few times etc.I got a friend who uses it as a hobby and for business.But anyhow as for me I am a tricaster user to let you know.I bought my system a little over a year ago and shoot events like concerts etc on our site to people can see them.I am now 25k into this for video gear such as the system its self and camera's, stands,lines,good room mics. I have just now started really making money at it.I am pretty sure this year is the year for me and my website will be very well known if all goes rite.I couldnt help but think of the fact that you buying this program and wanting to do a movie or an animation and havent started is sort of your fault.Its you holding you back more or less.I had the same issues you had.Accept my recent upgrade costed 1,000.00 for the 2.5 for tricaster.I realized I was spreading myself to thin in what I was doing, trying to do it all so to speak and that doesnt work.So I got the upgrade with a lot of new killer features and now I am going to take time to learn them.It might take awhile but ill get through it.So it sounded like with the ton of software you have already.You can make your animation movie you want.You just got to start doing it.I was thinking you should take the cad works of the parts you use for aero space stuff make them animations or some sort of custom character and run with that. I can see it now an evil ram air turbine, shooting out everything that get's in its way as it gets shreded up in the blades.I do know in the world of creation and things that were all sort of doing it definately takes baby steps. some times this forum will drive you nuts trying to find answers and getting help from people.But chances are if you start working on the project you want to do.Their are a lot of guys here that have enough cranial-kung-fu, to help if you get stuck on something. My final thought is quit buying software you dont know how to use till ya learn about what ya have.Ask for help when you need it and the next thing youll be posting that footage on utube. I only say that to you because It dawned on me myself $15,000.00 dollars ago out of the 25k I have spent.Oh and i hope you do the movie you want so we can all sit down and watch it some day.


1 giant block of text..SO hard to read!:D

quick edit>>

Well I couldnt help but respond to the post by rkphelps when I got to the forum and read it.

I am not really a core user how ever I have messed with it a few times etc.

I got a friend who uses it as a hobby and for busines, But anyhow as for me I am a tricaster user to let you know.I bought my system a little over a year ago and shoot events like concerts etc on our site to people can see them.I am now 25k into this for video gear such as the system its self and camera's, stands,lines,good room mics. I have just now started really making money at it.I am pretty sure this year is the year for me and my website will be very well known if all goes rite.

I couldnt help but think of the fact that you buying this program and wanting to do a movie or an animation and havent started is sort of your fault.Its you holding you back more or less.I had the same issues you had.Accept my recent upgrade costed 1,000.00 for the 2.5 for tricaster.I realized I was spreading myself to thin in what I was doing, trying to do it all so to speak and that doesnt work.So I got the upgrade with a lot of new killer features and now I am going to take time to learn them.It might take awhile but ill get through it.So it sounded like with the ton of software you have already.You can make your animation movie you want.

You just got to start doing it.

I was thinking you should take the cad works of the parts you use for aero space stuff make them animations or some sort of custom character and run with that.

I can see it now an evil ram air turbine, shooting out everything that get's in its way as it gets shreded up in the blades.I do know in the world of creation and things that were all sort of doing it definately takes baby steps.

some times this forum will drive you nuts trying to find answers and getting help from people.But chances are if you start working on the project you want to do.Their are a lot of guys here that have enough cranial-kung-fu, to help if you get stuck on something.

My final thought is quit buying software you dont know how to use till ya learn about what ya have.Ask for help when you need it and the next thing youll be posting that footage on utube. I only say that to you because It dawned on me myself $15,000.00 dollars ago out of the 25k I have spent.

Oh and i hope you do the movie you want so we can all sit down and watch it some day.

PHEW!!..that's better!:thumbsup::D:)

erikals
03-31-2009, 06:34 PM
rkphelps, your'e jumping off at the wrong station ;)

Jay3D is making a realtime dynamics plugin, and aurora is seriously concidering making a Fluids plugin... (and from the looks of it that plugin will kick...) (realease date is quite off, but still) there will be sooo many new cool features in LW in the next 1-2 years.

Lightwave has never been cheaper, or better. I'm doing a Maya project and exporting all simulations to Lightwave as the render kicks *****.

i'm telling you, wait 1 or 2 stations...
the power of the dark side will rule once again,..
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/anniecatt/darth_vader.gif

rkphelps
03-31-2009, 07:36 PM
AHHHHHHHHH!!! I'm so weak, the pressure of midnight approaching was to much. Say hello to Hardcore Charter Member #7234. Erikals you pulled me back from the Dark side and I'm staying on the train for at least another station or two. I hope I'll see some exciting things along the way.
May the Force be with you obi-wan :)

jasonwestmas
03-31-2009, 07:44 PM
Lightwave is super cheap for what it does. I wouldn't invest in CORE if you are trying to finish your hobby project you are working on now, it's not really ready. However if you will be getting 9.6, well that's easily worth the $.

A Mejias
03-31-2009, 07:56 PM
AHHHHHHHHH!!! I'm so weak, the pressure of midnight approaching was to much. Say hello to Hardcore Charter Member #7234. Erikals you pulled me back from the Dark side and I'm staying on the train for at least another station or two. I hope I'll see some exciting things along the way.
May the Force be with you obi-wan :)

Yeah, let's hope it's really kiskass!

I saw another post from earlier today that had order #7176. So if they are sequential then they've sold more than a few last minute HC memberships.

Oedo 808
03-31-2009, 08:07 PM
Yeah, let's hope it's really kiskass!

I saw another post from earlier today that had order #7176. So if they are sequential then they've sold more than a few last minute HC memberships.
Choo choo! Yeah, I boarded the Core train last night and was order #7089, so it looks like a few people made the leap. I decided to make the leap a while ago, I was just having trouble raising the funds.

I am also a mere Hobbyist.

erikals
03-31-2009, 08:17 PM
AHHHHHHHHH!!! I'm so weak, the pressure of midnight approaching was to much. Say hello to Hardcore Charter Member #7234. Erikals you pulled me back from the Dark side and I'm staying on the train for at least another station or two. I hope I'll see some exciting things along the way.
May the Force be with you obi-wan :)

thanks, good choice http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/smile.gif
http://erikalstad.com/smiley/SW_Obi_Wan_Kenobi.gif
the force is now with you Jedi...

Verlon
03-31-2009, 10:21 PM
$399.00 seems a lot to pay for a hobby. But then again, how much cost photography, diving, skiing, ... I guess those cost all more than $ 399.00 per year, no? It all depends how much time you spend with the software during that year. If you spent 2 hours a day with it, than it becomes a lot cheaper than going to the movies.

Perception is the key I guess.

as a collector of fine hobbies, I can say with certainty that any hobby worth its entertainment salt is going to set you back $2000 or more to get started good, and $500 a year after that to stay in serious practice.

Based on Newtek history, you could skip-grade to stay current, grabbing every other one. Yes, the price went up. I am sure the programmers were clamoring for a raise. How often does rent go down? There are IPs to license and so on and so forth.

If nothing else, 9.6 is a very solid product that you can enjoy your hobby with until you decide what you want to do next.

OrvilleB
03-31-2009, 11:16 PM
Well, midnight passed and I did not buy. It had nothing to do with the value of Core, but with my knowledge. I amazed my son (Masters degree in engineering this coming May from Columbia) with my knowledge of programming Excel/Access. I purchased Mathematica about a week ago. I'm not an expert there, but before I retired, I went through 2 large books on programming version 4, and I now want to find out what has changed in version 7. I bought an upgrade to Photoshop CS4. I honestly thought I knew that program, but I got a free month at Lynda.com, and the instructors there showed me quickly that I have a huge amount to learn. As for Lightwave, well, I've owed it for 3 years, and I know squat. Instead of expanding my realm of ignorance, I know I must 1. Become the expert I thought I was in Photoshop. 2. Get up to speed Mathematica. 3. Learn enough about Lightwave to honestly know the difference between it a Core when Core is released. I believe those tasks will keep even a retired person busy until the 4th quarter.

TimothyB
03-31-2009, 11:43 PM
AHHHHHHHHH!!! I'm so weak, the pressure of midnight approaching was to much. Say hello to Hardcore Charter Member #7234. Erikals you pulled me back from the Dark side and I'm staying on the train for at least another station or two. I hope I'll see some exciting things along the way.
May the Force be with you obi-wan :)

I bought the Companion Upgrade a couple hours ago, I'm #7250, it was now or never for me unless I paid full price and I couldn't resist anymore.

I like 3D as a hobby, and been able to put it to good use at work for my newspaper graphics, with Carrara 6 Pro and Hexagon to model.

I can't think of anything better than to be part of the building of a new program. Hopefully being somewhat of a newb will generate some good suggestions when I get upset when I find I can't do this or that.

So it's going to a be a fun year.

Exception
04-01-2009, 01:57 AM
I too, have a dream of a short film. If I ever do it, it will take hundreds of hours of work and lots of money.It will be terrible and will be placed on U-Tube. Will it be worth it? You bet!

This is the most interesting sentence in this thread.
Go for it! We'll be cheering on the sideline!

Oedo 808
04-01-2009, 03:35 AM
I too, have a dream of a short film. If I ever do it, it will take hundreds of hours of work and lots of money.It will be terrible and will be placed on U-Tube. Will it be worth it? You bet!


This is the most interesting sentence in this thread.
Go for it! We'll be cheering on the sideline!

Agreed, this to me represents a superb philosophy!

Best of luck with it. :)

DiedonD
04-01-2009, 04:22 AM
I too, have a dream of a short film. If I ever do it, it will take hundreds of hours of work and lots of money.It will be terrible and will be placed on U-Tube. Will it be worth it? You bet!

Thats exactly what I thought, except that I went for an even longer shot, which was the long movie instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwtuQL6g__w

I made it till half though.

My suggestions is, if you are lucky enough to have basic but FUNDAMENTALLY importont three things, than that movie really doesnt stands a chance from beeing projected from the image in your mind to a real image for all people to see in real world!

And those are:

Will Power, Time and Working Conditions (Like a peaceful place, Electric Power and such)

I had only the first, and was dealing with the lack of the later two, even at the health expense, just to make it. Until health couldnt take no more...

cresshead
04-01-2009, 04:42 AM
core Q1 is out.

OrvilleB
04-01-2009, 09:30 AM
Well, I made the right decision to not upgrade for another reason. It actually rained in South Carolina in the last week. Seems like, last night, it rained right through my roof a couple of feet from my computer. Reality bites sometimes. I will be spending money on something that is definitely not a hobby.

Nicolas Jordan
04-01-2009, 09:56 AM
Well, I made the right decision to not upgrade for another reason. It actually rained in South Carolina in the last week. Seems like, last night, it rained right through my roof a couple of feet from my computer. Reality bites sometimes. I will be spending money on something that is definitely not a hobby.

One of the many wonderful surprises and expenses that can come from home ownership. :D

RebelHill
04-01-2009, 09:58 AM
this is the most interesting sentence in this thread.
Go for it! We'll be cheering on the sideline!

+1

rewire69
04-01-2009, 10:52 AM
Hey thanks for the re-write on the blog page. I actually didnt get to look at it before I posted it.My lap top battery went dead because I didnt notice the power level was low.

So thanks for the edit on the page and making it so peoples heads wont explode.


rewire69

p.s. That must of took awhile to get done.To much free time!

wacom
04-01-2009, 01:51 PM
I find these posts bizarre to say the least.

If you can't afford it then buy something cheap or free.

If you really like it and MUST have it then you can find a way to "stay in the game".

Last option is just to give it all up.

Anyone know of anything else really to say?

Personally I have very little pity for those in the "1st world" countries that are complaining about the price of 3D software (esp. when LW is so cheap, and blender is free). Either buck up and face the facts that you're never going to get anywhere with it even as a serious hobby if you don't take time for it or just give it up.

Most other artistic hobbies sans paper cut outs and basic drawing are more expensive in the end if you're even half way serious about them...

Sorry- I'm not trying to be rude, but I just find it a slap in the face when people who work fairly good jobs in the "1st world" complain about the price of software when i make diddly and can always find a way to own a legit copy of XYZ.

Heck, you could even use every applications 30day trial each year and get at least 6 months of 3D usage for free!

jaxtone
04-01-2009, 02:05 PM
Let me just ask you this! Where are you located, in the 1st, 2nd or 3D-world?

:D



I find these posts bizarre to say the least.

If you can't afford it then buy something cheap or free.

If you really like it and MUST have it then you can find a way to "stay in the game".

Last option is just to give it all up.

Anyone know of anything else really to say?

Personally I have very little pity for those in the "1st world" countries that are complaining about the price of 3D software (esp. when LW is so cheap, and blender is free). Either buck up and face the facts that you're never going to get anywhere with it even as a serious hobby if you don't take time for it or just give it up.

Most other artistic hobbies sans paper cut outs and basic drawing are more expensive in the end if you're even half way serious about them...

Sorry- I'm not trying to be rude, but I just find it a slap in the face when people who work fairly good jobs in the "1st world" complain about the price of software when i make diddly and can always find a way to own a legit copy of XYZ.

Heck, you could even use every applications 30day trial each year and get at least 6 months of 3D usage for free!

DiedonD
04-02-2009, 12:55 AM
Let me just ask you this! Where are you located, in the 1st, 2nd or 3D-world?

:D

Well Mercury is the first world from the Sun...

And people that complain from that world dont seem appealing to him, and it seems like theyre are slapping him in his face when they complain!

But, Mercury is so darn hot, and theres no air, no green stuff and not even a dog!

Wacom, give the first world people some break will you? If it isnt hard enough that they must walk constantly in the edge between too hot and too cold, all the time as that world circles, and with portable oxygen tanks carrying with them, and must do LW while walking, they now must also deal with your complains about them complaining!

I think its too much for the 1st World people - Mercurians! Give em some break will you?

:D

meshpig
04-02-2009, 02:39 AM
Why would a hobbiest, who has no intention of ever becoming professional, want to spend money on a commercial one anyway, and why would any software developer care.

That's a bit like saying a good domestic cook who doesn't feed the Hoy Polloy in a commercial situation, but who none the less is a good cook doesn't feel the need for good cookware and a decent set of blades.

- Even as a 3D pro it's more like a trade than a Profession as such.

-The word hobbyist is a little antiquated anyway; people do all sorts of varied things for "pleasure" ... anyone dumb enough to call themselves a hobbyist.

As for why should any software dev would care?; there was a time when "electronics" was just a thing, a hobby. A dumb pastime for non-professionals. Of course it wasn't but...

Things change quickly then change back just as fast; at one point the hobby artist theme worked for Newtek, now it doesn't but if you look around you the pieno di sangue model of "commercial only" is a sorry sack of ****.


m

colkai
04-02-2009, 03:00 AM
Nicely put Meshpig.
By the 'rules' Mr Seffen applies, any amateur guitarist should be content with a 30 quid cheapy guitar and never want to buy themselves, oh, I dunno, say a hand-built custom guitar, simply because they aren't a professional.
>>Looks over at his axes<< oh...wait a minute... :p ;)

DiedonD
04-02-2009, 03:31 AM
>>Looks over at his axes<< oh...wait a minute... :p ;)

You have axes too?

:gotpics:

colkai
04-02-2009, 04:34 AM
Not trying to derail the thread, but as you asked. :)
Also got a 6-string Jumbo and a TangleWood semi-acoustic. :)
Sold my bass guitar (since sold my Tele too) to generate some funds.

The destroyer and the dark-sunburst were hand-crafted to my personal requirements by 'Gordy' of Gordon-Smith fame.

Oh yes, you may notice, I'm a lefty :D

meshpig
04-02-2009, 04:57 AM
Nicely put Meshpig.
By the 'rules' Mr Seffen applies, any amateur guitarist should be content with a 30 quid cheapy guitar and never want to buy themselves, oh, I dunno, say a hand-built custom guitar, simply because they aren't a professional.
>>Looks over at his axes<< oh...wait a minute... :p ;)

Yes, good analogy. Where would Gibson and Fender be today without the millions of amateurs and from their midst come "the professionals" and no bad reputation ... ie. would anyone know what a Rickenbacker was unless that rank amateur Paul McCartney hadn't once played one in the Beatles?

Also the distinction is more or less crap anyway because "trades" like 3D are just Corporate "ladies in waiting". Professionals deal in $$'s directly and pay other people for their knowledge.

Yeah, even a talentless git would baulk at a 30 quid cheapy unless they had to beg for a living. It's instinctive to go for the best tool, but as Confucius said "man who put tool in box, not necessarily Carpenter".

m

Rod Seffen
04-02-2009, 05:37 AM
It's not a good analogy, it's the droolings of an imbecile (and he blatantly only brought it up to show off his guitars)
You can get a ple version of many of the highest end apps, which is the same as the real app except you can't use it for commercial use (which a hobbiest isn't anyway)
The equivalent, if there is one (which there isn't) would being able to permanently hire a high end guitar for free as long as you don't use it to make money.
It's not an equivalent because there's a big difference between owning and handling a physical object, and 'owning' software (which you never do anyway, you licence software)

DiedonD
04-02-2009, 05:57 AM
Yes but there are more options if you own the app which is for commercial use!

Besides, what if the hobbyists wants to leave the door open for the case or cases when one might actually sell some work!

Alot better with the door open like that.

meshpig
04-02-2009, 06:55 AM
It's not a good analogy, it's the droolings of an imbecile (and he blatantly only brought it up to show off his guitars)


Oh well, if you have guitars and can't really play them what else? No big deal, sfw? On the other hand, go see Elvis Costello sometime ( even with the bronsky quartet) and the 28 high end guitars ( and the $200 tickets) he shows off with and yet he can't even play a chord. Makes lots of $$ though.

Different culture; the PLE equivalent with guitars is just the myth of the instrument itself.

m

colkai
04-02-2009, 08:08 AM
You know, sometimes, you really don't have to make someone look like an arrogant fool, they can manage it all by themselves. :devil:

vncnt
04-02-2009, 08:42 AM
Making an (animation) film has nothing to do with the latest software upgrades or collecting software.

Instead, focus on concept, storytelling, character development and basic animation principles.

If you need inspiration, read/watch interviews with John Lasseter. He didn't need LightWave v10 to create "The Adventures of Andre and Wally B" back in 1984.

cresshead
04-02-2009, 09:07 AM
Not trying to derail the thread, but as you asked. :)
Also got a 6-string Jumbo and a TangleWood semi-acoustic. :)
Sold my bass guitar (since sold my Tele too) to generate some funds.

The destroyer and the dark-sunburst were hand-crafted to my personal requirements by 'Gordy' of Gordon-Smith fame.

Oh yes, you may notice, I'm a lefty :D
hello lefty!

i've got a tanglewood rebel 4K bass [left handed]
yamaha cs1x synth
an old korg ddd1 drum machine
nintendo ds10 analogue synth cartridge [ace!]
and currently running garageband on my old mac mini g4

btw, i used to have an 8 track studio in the 90's....:hey:

reminds me i realy should put up some of my songs on my new website somewhere once it's done...

okay...back on topic>>:thumbsup:

shrox
04-02-2009, 09:26 AM
Does the Artist Formerly Known As Oddity do any animation?

Rod Seffen
04-02-2009, 10:00 AM
I don't know what that's got to do with the topic, but I can rig and animate in maya, and have done so for game mods I used to work on ages ago, where I'd do the whole character pipeline from concept to animation, though it's not something I'm much interested in and therefore have never bothered learning it to any degree of professionalism.

sammael
04-02-2009, 10:03 AM
nintendo ds10 analogue synth cartridge [ace!]


Thats the only thing I use my DS for... cant even be bothered picking up GTA. Electroplankton was also good for about 5 minutes but its a bit too tripped out and Japanesie.

shrox
04-02-2009, 10:27 AM
I don't know what that's got to do with the topic, but I can rig and animate in maya, and have done so for game mods I used to work on ages ago, where I'd do the whole character pipeline from concept to animation, though it's not something I'm much interested in and therefore have never bothered learning it to any degree of professionalism.

A good and honest answer.

TSpyrison
04-02-2009, 11:04 AM
you know, sometimes, you really don't have to make someone look like an arrogant fool, they can manage it all by themselves. :devil:


x2

Rod Seffen
04-02-2009, 01:27 PM
You two should get a room instead of blowing each other kisses in public.

bobakabob
04-02-2009, 05:49 PM
Re the old hobbyist vs Pro software debate. Artistic tools don't have to be expensive to be good. Lightwave is like a Nikon D40 - cheap but capable of taking bloody good photos that can trounce those of a self appointed "professional" in the right hands.

archijam
04-02-2009, 06:03 PM
http://vimeo.com/3514904

Just .. do it :)

RudySchneider
04-02-2009, 09:01 PM
http://vimeo.com/3514904

just .. Do it :)

Very cool!

colkai
04-03-2009, 02:15 AM
Very clever re-interpretation

j__
04-03-2009, 09:11 AM
Firstly congrats on the new software everybody.

"Sometimes I feel more like an addicted Software collector than a 3D Artist."

A lot of 3d 'artists' are often by their own admission. And as others have said don't be so self-depreciating. The first post here actually had the word hobby in it 8 times. Good Lord. It's interesting how so many people use the word 'hobby' in the 3d word. You don't see it all it other fields, it's very conspicuous by its constant presence.

I imagine the price isn't an issue. But it's reasonable for people to expect NT not to dish up another bucket of catpoop like LW has always been. That's not an issue of price, it's an issue to do with quality control.

"One more thought. I guess some of you professionals and talented amateurs wonder why people like me bother spending my money and time on something I am not good at. Well, I was born with about zero talent in everything, but it hasn't kept me from living."

Is there a particular reason you suggest that the 3d industry is full of talented people ?

"Right now, at 63, I'm training again for the Assault on Mt. Mitchell, 105 miles of grueling cycling pain that ends at an elevation 6,000 feet higher than the starting point. Last year, I nearly won. (Hey, only about 550 people finished in front of me!) The last 30 miles was just about all up the side of the mountain in 96 degree heat. Was it worth it? You bet! I too, have a dream of a short film. If I ever do it, it will take hundreds of hours of work and lots of money.It will be terrible and will be placed on U-Tube. Will it be worth it? You bet!"

Sounds really cool wish you all the best with both.

------

"Unlike any other hobby, there are free to use ple versions of a lot of apps and completely free 3d apps in a lot of categories. Why would a hobbiest, who has no intention of ever becoming professional, want to spend money on a commercial one anyway, and why would any software developer care.
I would think it's an insult and embarrassment for any 3d app to be known as 'the hobbiest's app'. "

I understand, but then as 'hobbyist' is almost exclusively used as a specific code word in 'animation language', i.e a piece of working class aggrandizement among workers to create some distance between the real world and them, and give them some self-esteem within a skilled trade it doesn't really tend to mean a whole lot. Similarly then what does it tell us about what 'professional' means ? BTW I think it's 'hobbyist' rather than hobbiest.

"I don't know what that's got to do with the topic, but I can rig and animate in maya, and have done so for game mods I used to work on ages ago, where I'd do the whole character pipeline from concept to animation, though it's not something I'm much interested in and therefore have never bothered learning it to any degree of professionalism"

You've just said it there, you can pretty much do it yourself. But if anything when it comes to 3d, 'professionalism' usually means something different. Specifically it usually means the ability to take orders. Exactly as it does for every other kind of skilled labor force. And it's only in those very trade oriented, deeply working class fields that you hear the word 'hobby' at all, you don't hear it elsewhere.

meshpig
04-04-2009, 05:51 AM
You two should get a room instead of blowing each other kisses in public.

Zig Heil! No public display of affection around here!

- Talking of weird images in beer halls I came across this yesterday. A few hours from here in a regional city which began as a wealthy coal port, then hi-jacked by the advent of modern Steel. Absolutely amazing art deco.

- What do you make of this? A naked woman about to spread her legs in front of a lot of big stiff surf boards.

71982

Hilarious.

m

PS. lousy shot but I think it's an early beer ad.

mattclary
04-04-2009, 10:55 AM
Let’s look at the new pricing structure if it was implemented in 2006 for version 9:

*Yearly Maintenance Program

March 2006 - $399.00
July 2006 – Version 9 released
March 2007 - $399.00
March 2008 - $399.00
Total…….....$1,197.00

New Upgrade after release
July 2006 buy V9 - $699.00



What in the flying F*CK are you talking about?

I have upgraded every time, as SOON as was possible. I gave NewTek money in 2004, 2006, and 2009. I don't even recall the amounts because it is inconsequential to me. I would guess worst case ~$1500 spread over 5 years.

mattclary
04-04-2009, 11:02 AM
AHHHHHHHHH!!! I'm so weak, the pressure of midnight approaching was to much. Say hello to Hardcore Charter Member #7234. Erikals you pulled me back from the Dark side and I'm staying on the train for at least another station or two. I hope I'll see some exciting things along the way.
May the Force be with you obi-wan :)


Ahhhhhh! There you go! Welcome to the club! :thumbsup:

rewire69
04-05-2009, 04:12 PM
>>Looks over at his axes<< oh...wait a minute... :p ;)[/QUOTE]

As a some what newbie to the tricaster pro.I cant wait till ive learned how to really run it and enjoy all the features and addon programs to attach even if its for fun.Getting to use 3d software etc to do things that other hobby type users cant do yet.I just wish I could run it like I know how to play my axe's...2 58 Les Paul's just in case your wondering.

I also noticed to who ever get's to read this. The users of Newtek products are die hard users and fans of what they buy.
I have noticed that you could get clubbed like a baby seal here by bashing the products from newtek or saying something bad about the software or hardware. You guys are wild! but im glad I can call some of you friends.

archijam
04-05-2009, 04:22 PM
- What do you make of this? A naked woman about to spread her legs in front of a lot of big stiff surf boards.

71982

Check the image name ..

You NewSouthWelsh are so uncouth !

(In fremantle we mind our p's and q's ;) .. hardly.)

meshpig
04-06-2009, 04:46 AM
Check the image name ..

You NewSouthWelsh are so uncouth !

(In fremantle we mind our p's and q's ;) .. hardly.)

I know, it's a terrible burden we all have to bear here being so far away from, Wales?... couldn't think of a better name.

- What are p's and q's again?

shrox
04-06-2009, 04:49 AM
Zig Heil! No public display of affection around here!

- Talking of weird images in beer halls I came across this yesterday. A few hours from here in a regional city which began as a wealthy coal port, then hi-jacked by the advent of modern Steel. Absolutely amazing art deco.

- What do you make of this? A naked woman about to spread her legs in front of a lot of big stiff surf boards.

71982

Hilarious.

m

PS. lousy shot but I think it's an early beer ad.

She's not naked, she's wearing a skin tight bathing suit, either that or she has a nasty scar on her thigh...

Rod Seffen
04-06-2009, 05:32 AM
Zig Heil! No public display of affection around here!

Well, it's just that the avatar calling himself 'colkai' could be a 15 year old boy pretending to be an adult for all TSpyrison knows, so that would technically count as grooming, and there's only so many times he can get away with the old 'no, seriously officer, he said he was legal age' excuse before he gets caught.
Of course, they could both be 15 year olds pretending to be adults. (wouldn't surprise me in the slightest)

meshpig
04-06-2009, 05:44 AM
She's not naked, she's wearing a skin tight bathing suit, either that or she has a nasty scar on her thigh...

Thanks Shrox for the use of your eyesight. Naked or not, the allusion is the same. Not sure though if one could tell from here whether or not the scar is nasty.

shrox
04-06-2009, 06:01 AM
Thanks Shrox for the use of your eyesight. Naked or not, the allusion is the same. Not sure though if one could tell from here whether or not the scar is nasty.

Eyesight? I am using one of those new braille monitors...

Ahh, not really.

meshpig
04-06-2009, 06:43 AM
Well, it's just that the avatar calling himself 'colkai' could be a 15 year old boy pretending to be an adult for all TSpyrison knows, so that would technically count as grooming, and there's only so many times he can get away with the old 'no, seriously officer, he said he was legal age' excuse before he gets caught.
Of course, they could both be 15 year olds pretending to be adults. (wouldn't surprise me in the slightest)

Good point and an awful one too.

- Though I'm sure "Colkai" isn't a 15 year old; too many particular guitars.

m

PS. Of course we all could be adolescents feigning adulthood, without meaning to be flippant.

meshpig
04-06-2009, 06:59 AM
Eyesight? I am using one of those new braille monitors...

Ahh, not really.

Oh, **** no not one of those where you have to sit on it to get it to work? Old news.

With the really new one's you just have to shove it up a bit further.

You crack me up.

m

shrox
04-06-2009, 07:19 AM
Oh, **** no not one of those where you have to sit on it to get it to work? Old news.

With the really new one's you just have to shove it up a bit further.

You crack me up.

m

Well, no. I was think of running my fingers over the girl's thigh to check for a scar...

meshpig
04-06-2009, 08:04 AM
Well, no. I was think of running my fingers over the girl's thigh to check for a scar...

Obviously, but the scar being realistically proof of what?

shrox
04-06-2009, 08:10 AM
Obviously, but the scar being realistically proof of what?

Proof that I have little to do today...the power keeps going on and off.

meshpig
04-06-2009, 09:02 AM
Proof that I have little to do today...the power keeps going on and off.

Yes, but no excuses for being utterly bored. At least there are no prizes for.