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jaxtone
03-29-2009, 02:00 AM
I donīt know about you guys but it seems to me like NT doesnīt give a damn about some major bugs and failures in 9.6 that have been pretty well known to them for about 5-6 months by now! These issues have been addressed both as bug reports and communicated here at the forum without any reaction at all.

I know that there are some people that excuse a lousy and slow support action with an argument that CORE will soon save us and that the tech team doesnīt have time to keep up with developing LW 9.6 just because of that! To me it is not a winning concept since this is the only fully working 3D-solution NT sell in present time is LW 9.6!

To me its definitely not convincing to invest in CORE as long as NT/LW show no respect to their own product and neihter to their users that actually try to work professionally in Lightwave daily!

I have a few points of interest here but start up a really tragical behavior in LW 9.6 that makes it hard to plan and overview big scenes that contains many animated objects in a fast and accurate way!

1. The motion curve that is visually limited to just about 50 frames before and after the animated object! (Have been told that there are plug-ins or other workarounds to fix this. But its actually makes no sense since no suggested solutions work.)

Psyhke
03-29-2009, 04:40 PM
I was just wondering about this myself. I'm not aware of what major bugs have or haven't been reported (is there a central list somewhere?), but there is one that I'm concerned about and was wondering what the chances are that it will be addresed.

I just want to echo the overall sentiment that we'll all be using current LW for possibly a few years in some manner, and hope bug fixing doesn't slow to a crawl.

geothefaust
03-29-2009, 05:14 PM
Unfortunately, this may be one of those bugs that simply cannot be fixed due to the limitations of the old LW code.


I assume you submitted this in Fogbugz?

jaxtone
03-29-2009, 07:12 PM
Yeah for sure I have done both so and even tried to communicate with NT in any way I could come up with to let them know itīs not acceptable to just se a part of the animation path when working with 3D-animations!

The latest communication is "Case 20238! and hereīs an answer:

"I agree and we did have this feature in past versions. I'm not sure why they changed that feature could be due to some of the new opengl."


Unfortunately, this may be one of those bugs that simply cannot be fixed due to the limitations of the old LW code.


I assume you submitted this in Fogbugz?

jaxtone
03-29-2009, 07:22 PM
Working for years without updates and fixes or support is in my opinion not acceptable while some of us try to make a living with this 3D-tool!

As you say, years without any noticable actions can be a very long time and also put the brand of LW in a fragile position! While other "newer" 3D-software developers actually present new features on a week by week basis it seems to me that Lightwaveīs behaviour to put their 100% trust in old users is a very dangerous way to make business! Cause even we need full attention according to the 3D-tool weīve chosen!



I was just wondering about this myself. I'm not aware of what major bugs have or haven't been reported (is there a central list somewhere?), but there is one that I'm concerned about and was wondering what the chances are that it will be addresed.

I just want to echo the overall sentiment that we'll all be using current LW for possibly a few years in some manner, and hope bug fixing doesn't slow to a crawl.

evenflcw
03-29-2009, 07:44 PM
I find it odd that you haven't been able to get the QuickMotionPathFrames setting in the cfg file to work yet as suggested here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=817790

It works for me everytime. There are a coupe of ways you could've botched it. Editing the wrong file obviously won't work. And editing the right file while LW is running won't work either as the file is read on startup AND is overwritten upon exit. So if you had LW running when you edited, LW overwrote your setting when you restarted it (upon shutdown). I suggest you try it again! If it didn't work now either, present your step.

Exit all of LW (hub and all just in case). Find the right file. Edit it. Save. Start LW. Observe if any change has occured:
-If change. All is well.
-If no change. Close LW. Open the config file again:
--If QuickMotionPathFrames is the same as you put in, it was the wrong file. Because LW would have overwritten it with the setting of the last running instance.
--If QuickMotionPathFrames is back to 50. Then you likely had some instance running when editing and it was overwritten when you restarted.

biliousfrog
03-30-2009, 05:44 AM
I agree that it's extremely frustrating, that's the #1 reason why I have no intention of joining HC and will actively look for LW alternatives before considering CORE in a year or two. Although many people are saying that they'll join HC because NewTek have given them loads of free updates and they owe NewTek something, I see a consistant lack of ability to release a stable product and the need to release fixes for bugs that they've created along the way.

LW 9x has seen a lot of new features implemented but many of them still don't work properly (FFX is a prime example), some of the promised features were dropped after they were anounced as an incentive (UV tools) and loads of old features no longer work or are extremely unstable (the list is too long).

We're back to the traditional NewTek values of leaving something half-finished and moving on to something new. Perhaps, if I'd bought into 8.5 and had a few years of free updates I wouldn't be so bitter but I bought 8.3 just before they anounced the free 9x upgrade and bought 9.3 just before 9.5 broke everything...now I've had a couple of months of a slightly less buggy 9.6 and we're told that we're stuck with it because they've got their new club to look after.

Grrr!

Matt
03-30-2009, 05:59 AM
One I came across recently, the SIGMA node no longer works.

JBT27
03-30-2009, 08:03 AM
The fix on QuickMotionPathFrames works for me - great - been wondering about this but been dumb enough not to bother looking for a fix :D

I have alot of respect and sympathy for Jaxtone's views at the top of this thread, but I also have, what I reckon, is the reality of long-time use of LW. You put alot of time and effort and money into learning it, you do alot of work with it, you've got a feel for it after so long, knowing what you can easily achieve, and what might require you to look for another tool to support it sometimes.

In that case you either take the step and buy into HC for the ride and try to contribute at the outset, or you step back, wait, and see what happens. The ultimate get-out is dropping thousands of pounds on a new toolset, established, maybe with a subscription supporting it, that has enough of a feature set to allow you to do all that you need without becoming a coder/scripter.

I ditched Maya a long time ago, when I realised I still turned to LW for most of what we do, and frankly won't revisit that one. I've thought alot about this and come to the conclusion that we could only be looking at C4D or Max, probably with a respectable plugin/module arsenal. But that's out of the question (money) ..... so buying into HC is pretty much all the option. At this point I'm keeping a completely open mind about what will come from it, but I do believe it'll be a very long haul, and to be blunt, I am not entirely convinced it'll all work; Modo was built from the ground up, and chunks of that aren't great and don't show any signs of being fixed anytime soon.

But to waste hours coaxing LW to do something on occasions, when I can make the same thing just work ..... in Blender, notably some dynamics, is worrying. My investment in LW is too great to walk away from it when there's a last chance like HC, but I do stress that I believe it is NT's last chance.

Julian.

allabulle
03-30-2009, 08:24 AM
(...)I ditched Maya a long time ago, when I realised I still turned to LW for most of what we do, and frankly won't revisit that one. I've thought alot about this and come to the conclusion that we could only be looking at C4D or Max, probably with a respectable plugin/module arsenal. But that's out of the question (money) ..... so buying into HC is pretty much all the option. At this point I'm keeping a completely open mind about what will come from it, but I do believe it'll be a very long haul, and to be blunt, I am not entirely convinced it'll all work; Modo was built from the ground up, and chunks of that aren't great and don't show any signs of being fixed anytime soon.(...)

Same here. After working in various projects using Maya (in-house work at a studio) and more than often ending up using my own license of LightWave to finish a shot (for the great surprise and curiosity of the studio co-workers there) and finding myself *****ing at both Maya and LightWave for their weak points, I came to the same opinion: I'm using LightWave becouse it's fast (for me, at least) and reliable (meaning I know what to expect from it) and I can do almost I need with it. Using other software on occasion just for what it's getting impossible with LightWave is ok for me, being it Blender, Maya or whatever software that comes in handy. I guess I take all other software as some sort of plug-in's of my main base package: LightWave. As a side note, other folks working with other software complain as well, and not less than us about their software of choice and the companies that make them.

Did I make any sense? I hope so. Thanks for your patience.

jaxtone
04-01-2009, 02:33 PM
Well I must say that you did all the right things... but I missed an important fact. There are different cfg files on my computer and as you mentioned earlier "if it doesnīt work you probably have changed in the wrong cfg file". Iīve now found the missing link in LW9-64.CFG and it works perfectly well... earlier I changed in the 32 bit cfg file but not in the 64 bit cfg file so a BIG thanks to "evenflcw"!

Hereīs a huge and annoying nutcracker for me, you and everyone else to think about! I admit I am no technical genious at all and have no intentions being one either, but:

//How come that the excellent explanation you gave me didnīt pop up from the Lightwave support team even three months after I did ask them the first time?//

This is an unsolved riddle to me! Meaning that you as a friendly user on an internet forum have more knowledge and interest in helping me than the guys that call themselfes technical support and are responsibles for the 3D software that I have purchased!

The answer to my question was not based on any scientific rocket science but I feel that the support guys either donīt give a damn or just wanna be rude since a such easy solution could easily have been delivered by them to me in the first place if they would have had the ambition to keep up with the meaning of the word "support"!



I find it odd that you haven't been able to get the QuickMotionPathFrames setting in the cfg file to work yet as suggested here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=817790

It works for me everytime. There are a coupe of ways you could've botched it. Editing the wrong file obviously won't work. And editing the right file while LW is running won't work either as the file is read on startup AND is overwritten upon exit. So if you had LW running when you edited, LW overwrote your setting when you restarted it (upon shutdown). I suggest you try it again! If it didn't work now either, present your step.

Exit all of LW (hub and all just in case). Find the right file. Edit it. Save. Start LW. Observe if any change has occured:
-If change. All is well.
-If no change. Close LW. Open the config file again:
--If QuickMotionPathFrames is the same as you put in, it was the wrong file. Because LW would have overwritten it with the setting of the last running instance.
--If QuickMotionPathFrames is back to 50. Then you likely had some instance running when editing and it was overwritten when you restarted.

evenflcw
04-01-2009, 04:37 PM
Don't worry about it. I'm just executing my hidden agenda to discredit everyone elses bug reports so they get to mine before yours. :D

And although I don't know you well, I apparently know you well enough to figure you could've made a simple (technical) mistake. I also know you start to complain sooner rather than later. :) And I don't mind being rude, insulting and stubborn if it gets the job done.

Dexter2999
04-01-2009, 04:53 PM
Perhaps, if I'd bought into 8.5 and had a few years of free updates I wouldn't be so bitter but I bought 8.3 just before they anounced the free 9x upgrade and bought 9.3 just before 9.5 broke everything...now I've had a couple of months of a slightly less buggy 9.6 and we're told that we're stuck with it because they've got their new club to look after.

Grrr!

Did you at least get a free copy of LWCad or other product?

IMI
04-01-2009, 05:51 PM
One I came across recently, the SIGMA node no longer works.

Yeah, what's up with that anyway?
Oh well, at least we have car paint now. ;)

biliousfrog
04-02-2009, 02:43 AM
Did you at least get a free copy of LWCad or other product?

No, the only freebie I've had is the elephorm DVD with 9...any plugins I've bought seperately.

My old boss got 8.5 + Vue + upgrade to 9 but he bought in quite a few months after me....and it's the only legit piece of software he's ever bought after he won a competition on Spinquad and got paranoid about being found out.

colkai
04-02-2009, 03:17 AM
Did you at least get a free copy of LWCad or other product?

One of the most joyous freebies Newtek have ever given. :)

jaxtone
04-03-2009, 01:19 AM
You are damn right I have no problems with being rude, insulting and stubborn if it gets the job done!

Thats how communication ends up when a weak support team will not, can not or plan not to deliver appropriate solutions or answers to me as a user when bugs eating of my customers production time limits!

Obvious is that NTīs ineffective support is outnumbered when "a common user", like you self help me to solve a bug problem like this in a couple of minutes! I am shamefully aware of that you are way more technically skilled than I ever will be but that does not excuse these 5 months when I have asked the support team for a working solution of this problem.

To me its not funny and rather to put this in a comedy class, itīs tragical that people still defends their totally worthless support! Some older Lightwave users told me a while ago that when it comes to Lightwaves support team, months of waiting is a fact! Well! I asked them about help in some earings already 1998 that still isnīt answered, so I hope not anyone try to convince me about the oppposite until at least these reports are answered... hmmm... 11 years by now!



Don't worry about it. I'm just executing my hidden agenda to discredit everyone elses bug reports so they get to mine before yours. :D

And although I don't know you well, I apparently know you well enough to figure you could've made a simple (technical) mistake. I also know you start to complain sooner rather than later. :) And I don't mind being rude, insulting and stubborn if it gets the job done.

archijam
04-03-2009, 01:43 AM
....and it's the only legit piece of software he's ever bought after he won a competition on Spinquad and got paranoid about being found out.

Tee hee .. the price of fame? :)

prospector
04-03-2009, 01:51 AM
ineffective support is outnumbered when "a common user", like you self help me to solve a bug problem like this in a couple of minutes!
It would be nice if the answers and questions for them could be put into a searchable database somewhere.

JBT27
04-03-2009, 02:13 AM
I completely agree with all of this, but to any LW user, new and veteran, I would offer this advice: as you suggest, Jaxtone, from experience, NT support can be a load of rubbish, ie. indifferent and apparently not caring.....whatever the reasons on the ground, they're not up to it on a rolling daily basis. I'd make the same observation about the content producers - uninspired and uninspiring. Not all the time, but the average experience for the user bounces between frustration and confusion.

As a business recommendation, that's appalling - a retailer operating like that would quickly get a bad rep and lose business.

We've got William Vaughan shining through all that, but he's rare in this world, and we have the developer side who frequently appear on these forums, along with Jay and Chuck - these guys tell it like it is, and that's refreshing. They may get tomatoes hurled at them occasionally, but that's the price of honesty sometimes :D

But this is the strange world of 3D software - things are not always what they seem, and many, many things often go unexplained; you put up with it, or stumble across a fix, and move on.

I take the view that these forums ARE NT tech support - and they are far better than any small tech support unit could ever be, because these forums are populated by people from the real world, not the rarefied closetted world of software development. NT host these forums and allow them to happen - that's actual tech support, seriously.

And for myself, I have surrounded my corner with books and video training, and I have the web. I am not naturally tech savvy - even after all these years with LW, sometimes I have to stop and learn, or re-learn. But that's OK, and if I can't get an answer soon enough to get the job done, I'll search here, and post a thread if there's no answer. But for everyday tech issues, I never, ever go to NT, and I would actually question why anyone does; why bother them when we have all this?

On the matter of bugs, then yes, sure, absolutely bother the hell out of them.....but first make completely sure that it is a bug, and even if it is, that there isn't some other way around it. I'm just saying live with how it is - I regard software development as a rather deceitful world, not intentionally for the most part, but that's how it ultimately seems.

Julian.

genesis1
04-10-2009, 01:37 PM
I have a persitant bug in Lightwave 9.6. One scene I am rendering now chockes at frame 95 and frame 161. I get a critical error hang and further info says the faulting module is crender9.dll.
I am using perspective camera, no radiosity, photoreal blur.
I turned off everything and added them one by one. As soon as I added raytrace reflection it chocked. However, using the classic camera it is fine.
and if I render the scene frame on my old XP it works fine. So I guess its a Vista compatibility problem.

Anyone else get 'Critical error' hang. I've reported this to Newtek, but there is never any reply of a fix or help.:stumped:

As you say, I don't think they worry, you pay, then they turn away.

Sensei
04-10-2009, 01:58 PM
Anyone else get 'Critical error' hang. I've reported this to Newtek, but there is never any reply of a fix or help.:stumped:

Because you're not in beta you would not be even able to check whether they fixed it in one of builds..



As you say, I don't think they worry, you pay, then they turn away.

Try lowering Recursion Limit to f.e. 2.. If it renders fine, try increasing, until finding at which value it fails again..
Not having crash in one system, and having crash in another, in not driver related issue, might be stack overflow problem..

Sensei
04-10-2009, 02:12 PM
Not having crash with classic camera might be sign that bug is in photoreal motion blur.. Classic camera don't have photoreal motion blur.. Only other cameras that ray-trace, have it.. With classic this option is even disabled in Camera Properties window..

moussepipi2000
04-10-2009, 03:29 PM
JAXTONE, holy JAXTONE ! When i see your avatar, im sure you complains ! lol

lwanmtr
04-10-2009, 08:30 PM
To be honest, I'm real hopeful on alot of love for 9.6 (even a bit paranoid about the cocoa version for mac), given that they are probably concentrating on Core..I could be wrong, and they do keep posting that stuff will be done for 9.6...Dunno...not sure how they can effectively fix/update 9.6 and develop Core at the same time..I'm sure they dont have a huge team.

So, for the time being, I have resolved to have to deal with the little things that annoy me with 9.6 (and posting the occaisional reminder that mac users are anxious for 64bit)..hehe.

genesis1
04-11-2009, 02:43 AM
I think they will be even less likely to offer assistance to 9.6 with Core waiting in the wings.
They've got their shiny new car ready to roll out, so now they are not interested in their old car. However, what happens when core starts crashing and causing problems. Why should people go on paying money for software that has a poor support? Support and fixes, are as important as the software itself. Other software firms always release fixes and improvements on a regular basis that are free to download.

genesis1
04-11-2009, 02:52 AM
Not having crash with classic camera might be sign that bug is in photoreal motion blur.. Classic camera don't have photoreal motion blur.. Only other cameras that ray-trace, have it.. With classic this option is even disabled in Camera Properties window..

OK, Ive tried reducing ray recursion to 2 and I have also tried turning off photoreal motion blur. The results: Ray recursion no improvement, still crash.

Photoreal motion blur off, no motion blur on at all, result No crash.

Classic blur on, result No crash.

So it does seem as if the problem is with Photoreal motion blur.
At certain points in the time line, photoreal causes a critical error crash.

Oh, Ive just looked closer. With classic motion blur on the perspective camera, there is horrible banding across the rendered image.

Sensei
04-11-2009, 03:39 AM
Try this scene with your friend's LW to confirm that it's regardless of used LW.
I would also try using -c parameter, or delete config files (you can move them temporarily somewhere), to see whether it has any influence.
Use Graph Editor to see what exactly keys are in -1...+1 frames where is crash. Maybe something really obvious is there not right. f.e. some parameter is going to too small or too big value due curve interpolation.. Motion blur is using fractional frames, so even small overflow might cause bad thing, not visible in regular frame rendering (which is done with non fractional frames). Basically f.e. procedure which is using envelope is asking for input in range 0...10, and curve interpolation produced -0.0001 value, it's less than range, so could be causing crash. (just speculation)
Are you using some modules like f.e. FiberFX? Disable it, and render again..
Are you using 3rd party plug-ins? Disable them, and rerender.
Can you post your scene here for other to see it?
In LW bug report include your content.
Post bug to NewTek using this form https://secure.newtek.com/fogbugz/

genesis1
04-11-2009, 05:42 AM
I'm rendering a little scifi animation scene, and there are quite a few lights and reflections. However I can't finish it due to this annoying bug.:help:

https://secure.newtek.com/FogBugz/default.asp?22182_7gnnm8ao

Sensei
04-11-2009, 06:51 AM
Why 16 threads? Do you have dual quad machine? Try 1, and see whether it's stop crashing.. Classic camera works the best with as many threads as possible, but other cameras work the best with the same thread count as cores * cpus..

genesis1
04-11-2009, 06:59 AM
No, Just a intel core 2 quad. It seemed much faster with 16 threads. I'll try one and see what happens. I'll also try automatic for render threads, see if that makes any difference.

genesis1
04-11-2009, 08:02 AM
tried 1 render thread and auto. makes no difference still crashes at frame 95 and frame 161.

Sensei
04-11-2009, 08:03 AM
In the first place try using 1, to dis classify multi-threading issue..
Using Automatic on your machine will be equivalent of setting it to 4.

Sensei
04-11-2009, 08:11 AM
Ok. In that case remove all keyframes in Graph Editor..

And try this:



Use Graph Editor to see what exactly keys are in -1...+1 frames where is crash. Maybe something really obvious is there not right. f.e. some parameter is going to too small or too big value due curve interpolation.. Motion blur is using fractional frames, so even small overflow might cause bad thing, not visible in regular frame rendering (which is done with non fractional frames). Basically f.e. procedure which is using envelope is asking for input in range 0...10, and curve interpolation produced -0.0001 value, it's less than range, so could be causing crash. (just speculation)

Frames where LW is crashing are doing something that cause motion blur procedure to crash.. Once you will find keyframe that causes it, you will be able to modify to value that doesn't cause it..

-EsHrA-
04-11-2009, 11:26 AM
curious to see if we get A REACTION from nt!?... hehe..

Snosrap
04-11-2009, 10:47 PM
Adobe can't even fix "copy from clipboard" in Photoshop, so give NT some slack. The new dev team inherited kludge.:D

genesis1
04-12-2009, 02:22 AM
Well, I'm trying to narrow it down. I've removed the entire set and just left the animated items in the scene. No problems. So next I have tried removing the props and just leaving the set, which consists of walls sliding doors which are silver and reflective.OK, now we have the crash again. So its related to the set. I will have to remove it piece by piece to see which part is causing the problem.:cool:

jburford
04-12-2009, 03:32 AM
I am sorry, there is nothing that pisses me more flippin off than stupid crap that started this Thread. Ever think about creating a Thread, Hey Jay / Newtek, will there be updates or fixes to LW 9.6?

And, NO, I do not feel that NT does not give a damn about LW 9.6 nor its shortcomings or bugs nor the users for that matter. I do not feel that and it is not apparent to believe that it is so. Did NT or any other company for that matter ever announce, "at the moment, we are working on a bug fix to problem X73425, and a bug fix to problem X73464 and at the end of the cycle, we expect to fix x number of problems in software version x??????? If so, please provide me with the links to any information or proof on the matter. Any Software Company will do for any product or area.

Come on..... show it.

Also, while you are at it, please list off of the features that any 3D Company added week for week for this past 12 months!!! Please, what did XSI add for features every week this past 12 months or Maya or Max... Come on, we are waiting. I am serious, words are easy to throw out but harder to back up with facts or action.

The only product that I could seriously think of which might match that week for week new features would be 3D Coat, but then again, it would not quite be every week perhaps every third week or so.

Hi, I tell you what I would be glad to help you to write your ad for selling LW 9.6 on Ebay and even will pick up a copy of blender for you.

Cheers.

genesis1
04-12-2009, 03:33 AM
Scratching my head again now. I had the scene set up with just the set, removed an extra floor section that I had added in the corridoor so when the door opened you would see the floor. removed this and it rendered fine.So I open up my original scene and just take out that floor section. Now it chokes again! So its a combination of things I guess and not just one specific thing. Driving me mad this!:devil:

jburford
04-12-2009, 03:39 AM
hmnn, can imagine genesis. .. let us know if any of us should test on our systems for you.

genesis1
04-12-2009, 03:45 AM
Yes, I have a friend who has nearly the same set up computer wise as me, so I have sent him the files to do a test render. Just waiting a result now. One other thing that changed. When I turned off adaptive sampling the crash didn't occur untill around 93% of the render. Where as when it is on, it normaly crashes at 74%. I tried reducing real blur to 2 passes and that was OK for an F9 render, but crashed on an F10 render as a stream.
I will see what my friend comes up with on his testing.

jburford
04-12-2009, 04:17 AM
How large is the scene, many objects or extremes in the settings?

genesis1
04-12-2009, 07:06 AM
The scene contains 217817 polys using 37.9M Using perspective camera, ant-1, RecFilt-Gaussian, Adaptive:0.185, MB: Photoreal, Passes 3.

It seems related to motion Blur, as it doesn't crash with it off.
Checked the graph editor there are no extreme movements.

I have had this problem before on other scenes. Sometimes I can render an animation for hours then it crashes, sometimes minutes. But usualy I can carry on from the frame it crashed on and it re-renders fine. However this scene, consistently crashes as the same point over and over again. Frame 95 and frame 161 so far causing the crash.

Still image here:

https://secure.newtek.com/FogBugz/default.asp?22182_7gnnm8ao

Cageman
04-12-2009, 07:30 AM
Here is a simple solution:

Use something else! :)

genesis1
04-12-2009, 07:52 AM
Think I have found the problem. I'm using DP_Lights plugin. All my lights are set to raytracing soft shadows. Its a shame if I cant use these, as It gives much better lighting than the default harsh edged, raytraced default spotlights.

jburford
04-12-2009, 09:05 AM
perhaps you have an older dp_lights version?

genesis1
04-12-2009, 11:53 AM
I dont think so, but If anyone knows what the latest version is, I will check it out.