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View Full Version : Really need advice - C4D r11 or CORE?



spsauber
03-27-2009, 04:22 PM
Hi all

I did search the forum and found some advice but not quite the answer I am looking for. I am hoping that Newtek might even chime in here.

I am Intel Mac, LW9.6 and demo C4D r11.

I have been LW since LW4 and consistently upgraded but have finally hit the wall. In the past I focused on sets and lighting so the LW render was to die for.
But now I have decided I want more fun out of this so I am moving to character animation.

I am getting killed trying to learn joints!!! It has really shown me how hard things are to use in LW as things seemed to be buried or need to get through so many clicks to get some where.

The manual has one paragraph and joints and the rest is z axis bones.
I have purchased rigging dvds and they all deal with z axis bones. So - I am having a hell of time learning joints to create high end rigs.

Now I have been using C4D r11 for 2 weeks and was creating rigs, writing expressions, immediately and working great! Everything is so easy to get to and so integrated things go very quickly and intuitively.
But the render is clearly inferior to LW.

So.... I was wondering if any one has a feel for how rigging will be different in Core? I ask this now because the 31st and special offer ending is only days away.
Any one have any thoughts on this or maybe even a better way to learn rigging in 9.6?

Thanks for any thoughts.
Sean

OnlineRender
03-27-2009, 04:29 PM
I always go for final output , if there render is inferior to LW thats your answer right there , you can always find different ways to rig , or get the guys to help you on here , i can understand your concerns , but weigh up your options look hard then look at the cost difference to quality .

but if you feel at home with C4D , honestly it dosnt matter what anybody says , the final decision will be yours and yours only ! .

Goodluck hope you make the correct choice .

geothefaust
03-27-2009, 04:33 PM
My brief word of advice to you, is to be patient and stay focused. No matter what application you learn rigging in, it's going to be HARD. LW has a bad rap for rigging. Yes, in the past it's true, but with 9.6 things are much different. While it doesn't have a complete constraint system, it's pretty competent when you use Same as Item and up vectors.

Pick yourself up a copy of Larry's Definitive Guide to Rigging DVD. That will get you started. Then dive into LW rigging and start asking questions here on the forums when you have them. You'll find yourself rigging in a couple of months. :)



Hi all

I did search the forum and found some advice but not quite the answer I am looking for. I am hoping that Newtek might even chime in here.

I am Intel Mac, LW9.6 and demo C4D r11.

I have been LW since LW4 and consistently upgraded but have finally hit the wall. In the past I focused on sets and lighting so the LW render was to die for.
But now I have decided I want more fun out of this so I am moving to character animation.

I am getting killed trying to learn joints!!! It has really shown me how hard things are to use in LW as things seemed to be buried or need to get through so many clicks to get some where.

The manual has one paragraph and joints and the rest is z axis bones.
I have purchased rigging dvds and they all deal with z axis bones. So - I am having a hell of time learning joints to create high end rigs.

Now I have been using C4D r11 for 2 weeks and was creating rigs, writing expressions, immediately and working great! Everything is so easy to get to and so integrated things go very quickly and intuitively.
But the render is clearly inferior to LW.

So.... I was wondering if any one has a feel for how rigging will be different in Core? I ask this now because the 31st and special offer ending is only days away.
Any one have any thoughts on this or maybe even a better way to learn rigging in 9.6?

Thanks for any thoughts.
Sean

Silkrooster
03-27-2009, 04:50 PM
Due to this being a lightwave forum. Most if not everyone will tell you to go with lightwave. But like OnlineRender said the choice is yours and yours alone.
Right now its too early to speculate on on core. I have high hopes for where it will be in the next year or two. My advice is if you can wait a bit longer than wait see how core unfolds. If you can't wait, well do what your gut tells you. Its your money if you need to get animating right away do what you have to. There is nothing stoping you from going with Core once it is ripe for you to pick.
On the other hand how much of that money you were planing to spend on C4D could you use to increase your education? Would learning more tricks of the trade make up the difference of another program? When you purchase one of the courses from Dan Ablan or Larry Shultz, do you know that you can ask them questions requarding the course? Which in its self increases the value of those courses.
How much of that money could you spend on plug ins that would speed up your work flow? How would the plug ins benefit you vs C4D? Are there plugins for lightwave that can change how you work with character rigs? How do those plugins alone benefit you vs. C4D?
Questions, questions and only you can determine the answers once you feel you have done enough research.
Good luck in what ever your decision may be.
Silk

spsauber
03-27-2009, 04:52 PM
Man I knew this forum would be good - but fast too! Thank you OnlineRender and geothefaust.

I actually have Larry's guide... and unfortunately that is what put me over the edge. I purchased it hoping it was current and would help with joint rigs but it is old bones.

And as I try to follow with joints - they are clearly not just interchangeable.

So ... I hear the advice so far - and I REALLY appreciate it.

I would still like to hear from others as well - I really want to stay with LW - but man am I spoiled after two weeks of the ease of C4D.

Any one else?

spsauber
03-27-2009, 05:19 PM
...
On the other hand how much of that money you were planing to spend on C4D could you use to increase your education? Would learning more tricks of the trade make up the difference of another program? When you purchase one of the courses from Dan Ablan or Larry Shultz, do you know that you can ask them questions requarding the course? Which in its self increases the value of those courses.
How much of that money could you spend on plug ins that would speed up your work flow? How would the plug ins benefit you vs C4D? Are there plugins for lightwave that can change how you work with character rigs? How do those plugins alone benefit you vs. C4D?
Questions, questions and only you can determine the answers once you feel you have done enough research.
Good luck in what ever your decision may be.
Silk

Silk - GREAT reply!

It actually did not sink in about having access to Larry (and all of you) for help. And yes - you are right about taking that cost of C4D and getting any good plug ins.

In the past I had things like PuppetMaster and then Messiah - but that is not available for Mac.

If anyone has suggestions for a great rigging tool for mac please let me know
Sean

Phil
03-27-2009, 05:30 PM
I hate rigging - at least in LW. It's tedious, frustrating and an endless cycle of back and forth between Modeler and Layout to adjust things because Layout is not point-aware. The only way I've managed to keep some sanity in this process is with Maestro. It takes a great deal of the pain out of the process.

There are some irritations in that the expressions are LW, rather than Relativity (as the latter is not LScript-aware) and that the interaction speed can be less than what you'd hope for. However, it's a very powerful and flexible tool - completely customisable and well documented. The support from the developers has never been less than superb.

AbnRanger
03-27-2009, 07:38 PM
Man I knew this forum would be good - but fast too! Thank you OnlineRender and geothefaust.

I actually have Larry's guide... and unfortunately that is what put me over the edge. I purchased it hoping it was current and would help with joint rigs but it is old bones.

And as I try to follow with joints - they are clearly not just interchangeable.

So ... I hear the advice so far - and I REALLY appreciate it.

I would still like to hear from others as well - I really want to stay with LW - but man am I spoiled after two weeks of the ease of C4D.

Any one else?I'm going to sound biased here, but strictly based on what you are addressing, I really would consider 3ds Max 2010...for one you won't give up a thing regarding rendering quality. Secondly, with C.A.T 3 recently added for new 3ds Max subscribers (it was brought over from the Softimage Acquisition) it's the Bees Knees for ease of use...and you don't sacrifice a thing in capability. It also has it's own Muscle toolkit. It's so easy, I'm anxious to get back on this CA project I had on the backburner.
You also have Character Studio, which has been in Max for a while now...it's pretty powerful and really easy to use too. But, the skinning tools are way beyond what you have in LW
Still, plenty of Game studios using it...and they can use anything they want. One of it's strongpoints is a nice Crowd Simulation module.
Max 2010 is a really strong release, so I would give it a good looking over before you make a decision. As CORE develops, you can then decide if it's going to meet your needs, but for EASY character animation, Max has that covered pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bajid_n4oY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYK3MP1G910&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4tDM0D2BW8&feature=related
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/2010demos/graphite_edge/3ds_max_graphite_edge_loops_820x500.html
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/tutorials/tutorial_index/cat_overview_part_1_rigging_with_cat/
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/tutorials/tutorial_index/cat_overview_part_2_animating_with_cat
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=12299737

Mental Mill that comes with max 2010 (realtime nodal shader platform which will render in Mental Ray or can be used in game engines):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQUn0Zeh-0Q&feature=related

spsauber
03-27-2009, 08:10 PM
I'm going to sound biased here, but strictly based on what you are addressing, I really would consider 3ds Max 2010...


AbnRanger

Thank you for the response. If I were on a pc I certainly would consider 3Ds but I prefer to stay on mac and not run in boot camp.

sammael
03-27-2009, 08:27 PM
Dont know if anyone pointed this out but considering one of the major complaints with Lightwave is CA I 'think' (hope) it would be fairly safe to assume that this will be a major consideration in the development of Core. Whilst that wont help you in the short term in the long term, unless something hoes horribly wrong LW should have some much stronger CA tools. It remains to be seen of course but with all the end user input I believe we might end up with something fairly comprehensive it is certainly a much sought after feature set.

cresshead
03-27-2009, 09:00 PM
what sort of character animation are you looking to do?

keyframe
mo cap
procedual/footstep
squash n stretch toon style

personally i would not opt for cinema4d as it costs more than 3dsmax 2010 yet delivers so much less, plus i really do not like the idea of the upkeep on the modules on cinema4d either...waay to expensive per year.

you can do character animation in lightwave...it's not perfect but it is possible.

there are other options if you want to look around>
messiah studio
maya complete
houdini 10 [out soon]
xsi essentials 7.5
3dsmax 2010 [out soon]

as well as blender of course

as for lightwave core..well is JUST started to be constructed so waay too early to know what's going to be in it regards character animation...could be waiting till 2010 to get an idea on that front if we're realistic about it.

cresshead
03-27-2009, 09:04 PM
if your set on mac o/s then maya complete or houdini 9 escape...nothing else would really compare for character animation
both are around $1999 which is much less than cinema 4d

geothefaust
03-27-2009, 09:48 PM
No problem. :)

What problems did you run into exactly? You should start rigging with Zbones firstly. You'll get acquainted with how things operate. I wouldn't use joints until you're familiar with the basics of rigging. All of the techniques you learn for Zbones will apply to joints. Of course there are some unique things to remember for joints.

-Don't mix joints with Zbones and vice versa in a hierarchy.
-The "bone" portion of the joint has the bone options that you would find for Zbones. Including weight map options, rest length/rotation, strength, etc..
-The former will not apply if you have a single joint with no child joints.


Among other things, this is just off the top of my head.


Anyway, what problems were you having? There are lots of people on the forums that will help if you post your questions and situation. :)




Man I knew this forum would be good - but fast too! Thank you OnlineRender and geothefaust.

I actually have Larry's guide... and unfortunately that is what put me over the edge. I purchased it hoping it was current and would help with joint rigs but it is old bones.

And as I try to follow with joints - they are clearly not just interchangeable.

So ... I hear the advice so far - and I REALLY appreciate it.

I would still like to hear from others as well - I really want to stay with LW - but man am I spoiled after two weeks of the ease of C4D.

Any one else?

ericsmith
03-27-2009, 11:08 PM
-Don't mix joints with Zbones and vice versa in a hierarchy.

I may be wrong about this, but I think the rule is actually that you shouldn't mix joints and zbones within an IK chain, not necessarily the entire hierarchy.

Eric

AbnRanger
03-27-2009, 11:28 PM
AbnRanger

Thank you for the response. If I were on a pc I certainly would consider 3Ds but I prefer to stay on mac and not run in boot camp.That's cool. Given that situation, I would have to ask if you've given Maestro or Messiah a look-see?

geothefaust
03-27-2009, 11:47 PM
I may be wrong about this, but I think the rule is actually that you shouldn't mix joints and zbones within an IK chain, not necessarily the entire hierarchy.

Eric

While that is the general rule, there were some issues that came up even outside of an IK chain.

For instance, the joints not functioning correctly (or not at all) when in a hierarchy of Zbones. There is a thread in the 9.5.x beta forums somewhere with the problem listed if you're curious to see more.

geothefaust
03-27-2009, 11:58 PM
I just discovered Carm is posting rigging tutorials. Check them out in this thread:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96737

Silkrooster
03-28-2009, 05:53 PM
While that is the general rule, there were some issues that came up even outside of an IK chain.

For instance, the joints not functioning correctly (or not at all) when in a hierarchy of Zbones. There is a thread in the 9.5.x beta forums somewhere with the problem listed if you're curious to see more.

Yeah I was kind of under the impression it was all one way or the other.

geothefaust
03-29-2009, 01:48 AM
Yeah I was kind of under the impression it was all one way or the other.

Yep yep! Me too. "Do not cross the streams!"


:)

spsauber
03-29-2009, 05:03 AM
All

Thanks for all of the ideas. I have been checking them all out over the last couple of days so here is where I am at -

1. I have taken all of this in and based on all of the options available I can see it is not worth sacrificing the final render for the difficulty in rigging - so no C4D
That said I really like the ease of the interface in C4D.

2. But... when I went and downloaded Houdini - wow - this is very easy to use and has the same visibility that I liked in c4d. The only problem there - $8k to get dynamics - too much for this freelancer right now.

3. I have started to look at xsi and it seems to be one of the best for ik/fk driving ca - I do not forsee getting into mocap - procedural would be good as well. All of the comments I found out there seem to say that BootCamp2.1 and Windows Vista 64 bit are stable and running xsi with no problems. It is much more affordable than Houdini.

4. I really dont want to tackle Maya again as I never adapted to the interface.

5. I liked Messiah when it first came out - but I was windows back then and there is no mac version - so that is out. But I have read good things about Maestro so that looks like a bridge to core.

So based on all the advice here I think I will try the following....

Go ahead and commit to Core - get in at $395 and at least see what happens for the first version

Go with BootCamp and start using the trail of xsi and see how that feels

Go with Maestro for now (after spending more time with zbones and joint tutorials all of you have pointed out)

THANK YOU all very much. The response was more helpful than I anticipated (no bias at all to Core just real good advice!)

Sean

cresshead
03-29-2009, 05:31 AM
All

Thanks for all of the ideas. I have been checking them all out over the last couple of days so here is where I am at -

1. I have taken all of this in and based on all of the options available I can see it is not worth sacrificing the final render for the difficulty in rigging - so no C4D
That said I really like the ease of the interface in C4D.

2. But... when I went and downloaded Houdini - wow - this is very easy to use and has the same visibility that I liked in c4d. The only problem there - $8k to get dynamics - too much for this freelancer right now.

3. I have started to look at xsi and it seems to be one of the best for ik/fk driving ca - I do not forsee getting into mocap - procedural would be good as well. All of the comments I found out there seem to say that BootCamp2.1 and Windows Vista 64 bit are stable and running xsi with no problems. It is much more affordable than Houdini.

4. I really dont want to tackle Maya again as I never adapted to the interface.

5. I liked Messiah when it first came out - but I was windows back then and there is no mac version - so that is out. But I have read good things about Maestro so that looks like a bridge to core.

So based on all the advice here I think I will try the following....

Go ahead and commit to Core - get in at $395 and at least see what happens for the first version

Go with BootCamp and start using the trail of xsi and see how that feels

Go with Maestro for now (after spending more time with zbones and joint tutorials all of you have pointed out)

THANK YOU all very much. The response was more helpful than I anticipated (no bias at all to Core just real good advice!)

Sean

scine your 'okay' with boocamp now i'd also say go n trial 3dsmax2009 then 3dsmax design 2010 then 3dsmax 2010 [out soon]...that way you'll get upto 90 days demo time in 3dsmax...to really see the power of 3dsmax and how it figures in to your trials of software:thumbsup:

as for houdini it's $1995 if you want to concentrate on character animation

SplineGod
03-29-2009, 06:17 AM
Hey Sean,
Something else i would consider that you already own is IKBoost.
I use that mostly now rather then the older rigging methods. I also dont use joints much either. Heres some videos demonstrating various aspects of it:
http://www.vfxcast.com/playlist/IKBoost/

spsauber
03-29-2009, 06:42 AM
scine your 'okay' with boocamp now i'd also say go n trial 3dsmax2009 then 3dsmax design 2010 then 3dsmax 2010 [out soon]...

as for houdini it's $1995 if you want to concentrate on character animation

cresshead - your right - I should also check this out as well. Thanks

As to Houdini - the initial license is $1995 but then that does not get you any new releases (does get daily builds) unless you also get an annual subscription - another $800 or $1200 per single upgrade. And I did not want to get into something that was SO expensive to add modules. But... I wish I could - in the two days I have spent with apprentice I had not problems getting up and running with it.

spsauber
03-29-2009, 06:44 AM
Hey Sean,
Something else i would consider that you already own is IKBoost.
I use that mostly now rather then the older rigging methods. I also dont use joints much either. Heres some videos demonstrating various aspects of it:
http://www.vfxcast.com/playlist/IKBoost/

Larry - thanks for the reminder. Prior to purchasing the Definitive Guide dvd I was wondering if should not have just gone straight to the IK Boost DVD - but then when searching I came across a number of posts about mac issues with ik boost so I decided to hold off.

Can you tell us why you shy away from joints?

thank you
Sean

SplineGod
03-29-2009, 06:46 AM
Like a few other ppl Ive found joints to be somewhat fiddly at times. They do work with IKB however.

RebelHill
03-29-2009, 09:40 AM
While that is the general rule, there were some issues that came up even outside of an IK chain.

For instance, the joints not functioning correctly (or not at all) when in a hierarchy of Zbones.

maybe in 9.5... but it certainly works in 9.6... Ive done a couple rigs recently that mix zbones and joints a LOT... works fine... it seems to just be within an IK chain that things can get a bit funky

toeknee
03-31-2009, 01:32 AM
Hey Sean,

Just a small 2 cents. I have used bones and joints and the biggest problems I was having with the joints was in using the old tools to set them up. I was just kind of random this tool had a porblem then that tool didn't work. So what I do now when I want to us Joints and like Larry I really love IKboot and that is my tool of choice. I just rigg with zbones and get all the bones in place and mirrored and once the rigg is the way I like it I will then convert zbones to Joints. This has been a very easy way yo keep the cool tools for setting up bones but then being able to use joints. I have not had the need to have both joints and Zbones in the same rigg. Good luck and I hope that this helps for at least the rigg beginning.

SplineGod
03-31-2009, 02:21 AM
I also deal with mocap on a regular basis mainly on some TV shows were we need thousands of soldiers etc animated. IKB is great for editing mocap as well as for directly animation. The tools that it has for manipulating large amounts of keyframes lend themselves to easily editing mocap.

spsauber
03-31-2009, 05:52 PM
Hey Sean,

Just a small 2 cents. I have used bones and joints and the biggest problems I was having with the joints was in using the old tools to set them up. I was just kind of random this tool had a porblem then that tool didn't work. So what I do now when I want to us Joints and like Larry I really love IKboot and that is my tool of choice. I just rigg with zbones and get all the bones in place and mirrored and once the rigg is the way I like it I will then convert zbones to Joints. This has been a very easy way yo keep the cool tools for setting up bones but then being able to use joints. I have not had the need to have both joints and Zbones in the same rigg. Good luck and I hope that this helps for at least the rigg beginning.

Toeknee - great idea! I have a rigged character now, Ik working on the legs, using sliders for control on a reverse foot rig - so things are starting to come together.

So now I will try your swap to joints - see what happens. And also play with IKB on the z rig.

Thanks for the ideas - worth more than 2 cents!

Sean

dOMINUS
04-02-2009, 02:05 AM
I gave up on Lightwave a couple of years ago because I felt that rigging was a huge PITA.
After reading this post I can only be glad that I moved to Modo and Maya because apparently rigging in LW still is a nightmare.
I will be very surprised if COREs rigging will be much better, but you never know...

I'm not going to tell you which app you should buy because every app has its strong and weak points.
(Even Blender. BTW : rigging in Blender is actually easy and fun, much in contrast with LW!)

Lw indeed is priced well and has very good modeling and rendering capabilities.
But if it's CA you want to do, then I'd personally go for a more expensive app because then you will actually save money ==> you will get much faster results (time is money) and you will have a lot less stress (less doctors appointments).
In that case XSI is good value for your money !

Hope this helps ...

djlithium
04-02-2009, 02:59 AM
Hi all

I did search the forum and found some advice but not quite the answer I am looking for. I am hoping that Newtek might even chime in here.

I am Intel Mac, LW9.6 and demo C4D r11.

I have been LW since LW4 and consistently upgraded but have finally hit the wall. In the past I focused on sets and lighting so the LW render was to die for.
But now I have decided I want more fun out of this so I am moving to character animation.

I am getting killed trying to learn joints!!! It has really shown me how hard things are to use in LW as things seemed to be buried or need to get through so many clicks to get some where.

The manual has one paragraph and joints and the rest is z axis bones.
I have purchased rigging dvds and they all deal with z axis bones. So - I am having a hell of time learning joints to create high end rigs.

Now I have been using C4D r11 for 2 weeks and was creating rigs, writing expressions, immediately and working great! Everything is so easy to get to and so integrated things go very quickly and intuitively.
But the render is clearly inferior to LW.

So.... I was wondering if any one has a feel for how rigging will be different in Core? I ask this now because the 31st and special offer ending is only days away.
Any one have any thoughts on this or maybe even a better way to learn rigging in 9.6?

Thanks for any thoughts.
Sean

Hey Sean.
I am currently working in a mixed pipeline environment where C4D is being used along with XSI and Lightwave. Right now, the lightwave department is the only department that is outputting shots at a rate as fast as the machine will render them. Everyone else is stuck in dealing with major problems from lighting issues to object conversion issues. You name it. but once we got the assets for this show into LW and left those other apps behind, its been smooth sailing. But the other artists have gotten themselves into a serious mess with XSI and C4D being used together. It's a clusterfuck to put it bluntly. My preference would have been to not have C4D in the pipeline at all but that wasn't my decision, but its CERTAINLY costing them big bucks now.

So buy 9.6, get your Core upgrade and forget about C4D. Seriously. It's simply not a hard hitting production ready tool in my opinion. I don't care if they used body paint on hulk at ILM or whatever. It always comes down to how many LW artists does it take to save your crappy pipeline and screwed up show schedule. And its usually a tenth of the number of people they have in other departments combined.
That's the difference.
Some stuff might seem really sexy with C4D, but there is a LOT left to be desired before it even comes close to LW9.6 in functionality, flexibility and speed. So don't get suckered. Get LWCORE, run 9.6 to do your every day work now if you don't have it already and grow into an app you can actually have a hand in bringing to light. That's what this core thing is all about this time around.

Keeping the clusterfuck quotiant to a minimum.

AbnRanger
04-02-2009, 11:59 AM
Hey Sean.
I am currently working in a mixed pipeline environment where C4D is being used along with XSI and Lightwave. Right now, the lightwave department is the only department that is outputting shots at a rate as fast as the machine will render them. Everyone else is stuck in dealing with major problems from lighting issues to object conversion issues. You name it. but once we got the assets for this show into LW and left those other apps behind, its been smooth sailing. But the other artists have gotten themselves into a serious mess with XSI and C4D being used together. It's a clusterfuck to put it bluntly. My preference would have been to not have C4D in the pipeline at all but that wasn't my decision, but its CERTAINLY costing them big bucks now.

So buy 9.6, get your Core upgrade and forget about C4D. Seriously. It's simply not a hard hitting production ready tool in my opinion. I don't care if they used body paint on hulk at ILM or whatever. It always comes down to how many LW artists does it take to save your crappy pipeline and screwed up show schedule. And its usually a tenth of the number of people they have in other departments combined.
That's the difference.
Some stuff might seem really sexy with C4D, but there is a LOT left to be desired before it even comes close to LW9.6 in functionality, flexibility and speed. So don't get suckered. Get LWCORE, run 9.6 to do your every day work now if you don't have it already and grow into an app you can actually have a hand in bringing to light. That's what this core thing is all about this time around.

Keeping the clusterfuck quotiant to a minimum.In all fairness, if LW were more capable at the tasks assigned to to the others, then perhaps it wouldn't have warranted a mixed pipline in the first place.

Hopefully, in a year or two, LW CORE will solve this sort of problem, and more tasks can be comfortably handled in LW.

There could be a number of reasons, and it seems you're comparing apples to oranges (between what LW was tasked to do, compared to the other teams).