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Darth Buss
03-26-2009, 02:45 AM
Hello.

I have this animal that i created with skelegons in modeler. When i take it to layout and convert skelegons to bones, set up pivīs and all, and then save all objects and the scene, next time i load it the animal is loaded with skelegons and i have to do it all over.

Is there a way to keep the bone-rig with the animal?

Thanks for your patience with the newbie.

SplineGod
03-26-2009, 03:39 AM
Bone rigs are saved with the scene. Skelegons are saved with the object.

IMI
03-26-2009, 04:25 AM
Isn't skelegons kind of the "old" way of doing it too?
If there are advantages to rigging with skelegons, I don't know what they are, except that they stay with the model...if that's really an issue anyway.
I can't see any reason not to do rigging in Layout, though - skelegons seem like too much extra work, and I think you have more problems with them when it comes to drawing in different views.

EDIT:
You could try the Export Rig and Import Rig buttons in Layout under the Setup tab>Edit , but I don't know if it would work with skelegons

SplineGod
03-26-2009, 04:40 AM
Export Rig doesnt work with skelegons. I rarely use skelegons for rigging except in certain situations but generally not for characters.

ericsmith
03-26-2009, 09:57 AM
Isn't skelegons kind of the "old" way of doing it too?
If there are advantages to rigging with skelegons, I don't know what they are, except that they stay with the model...if that's really an issue anyway.

I think it's still a valid workflow in the right circumstances. If you've got a complex skeletal structure that you want to use for a lot of characters, it's going to be easier to adjust that skeleton to fit various sized characters in Modeler than in Layout. And getting the orientation right is no big deal. You just need to use the Rotate Skelegons tool.

Eric

RebelHill
03-26-2009, 10:03 AM
I think it's still a valid workflow in the right circumstances. If you've got a complex skeletal structure that you want to use for a lot of characters, it's going to be easier to adjust that skeleton to fit various sized characters in Modeler than in Layout. And getting the orientation right is no big deal. You just need to use the Rotate Skelegons tool.

Eric

yeah... for actually drawing in the bones, and aligning them the way u want, skelegons is way faster than layout ive always found. Now u got draw bone chain in layout though, u can just click, click, click, like skeles in modeller, so its probs not that much slower in layout in 9.6

still... used to waht im used to.

SplineGod
03-26-2009, 02:35 PM
I think its much easier to draw and align bones in layout. Skelegons and those wonkey bone up handles have too many gotchas. Skelegons are also sensitive to which viewport you draw them in and if they arent welded they arent parented etc etc.
I rarely touch them except to do things like produce long bone chains that follow a spline, convert polygon edges to bones etc etc.

OnlineRender
03-26-2009, 02:43 PM
im riggin with skeligons" only way my uni teaches " on my character at the moment , draw then convert . i understand the view port and gimble ? lock but what other method would u suggested , i want ik and controller rigs , do i convert bones / skeligons to nulls ? then work from there ..

Carm3D
03-26-2009, 02:48 PM
If I recall correctly, skelegons can cause havoc for certain types of dynamics. I cannot remember if it's ClothFX or FXMetaLink or what... So this is what I do:

When I am developing a character, I save the file as "Xxxx_Maker_01.lwo"

Xxxx would be whatever it's name is and of course the number is the version number saved.. The main character would be in layer 1 and skelegons would be in another layer, as would be eyeballs, etc.. If/when I need to use Skelegons, I'll combine them into "Xxxx.lwo" Then bring that into Layout for conversion. But then I'll later resave Xxxxx.lwo from the Maker model without skelegons. I will still have my 'Maker' backup if I ever need pieces or parts from it.

OnlineRender
03-26-2009, 02:50 PM
Its Cloth Fx as soon as I goto to active it , i get LW freeeeeeeeeeeezeeee , modeler at times goes wonky " sorry for technical term "

there is no ctrl button on chucks pc , chuck always in control !

SplineGod
03-26-2009, 08:46 PM
I just use the draw bones tool in layout. I rig half the character that way then mirror the bones over. If you have IKGoals setup it will mirror those too.
Theres not many reasons to use skelegons for character rigging these days since the bone tools do everything for the most part that skelegons do and none of the headaches.

Myagi
03-26-2009, 09:01 PM
aren't skelegons useful for being able to paint weights with real-time deformation feedback in vertex paint?

SplineGod
03-26-2009, 09:22 PM
They can be useful for that but arent necessary. You can paint or create weight maps in many ways. I used to use vertex paint but no longer do because its pretty clunky IMO. Theres tools like weight map blur etc that make it much easier.

When it comes to bones I rarely use weight maps anyways because bones are already deformers on their own. Weight maps modify the bone influence. If you dont know how bones work youre going to limited with what you can do with WMs. Also modeling correctly is a big help in getting proper deformations. If a character is not modeled with the proper flow no amount of weight maps will solve bad deformation issues.
I find that if I check deformations with my standard bones, fix what I can with hold bones that I end up not needing weight maps or only very simple ones.

Carm3D
03-26-2009, 09:31 PM
The only thing I've used Skelegons for in recent times are for eye anchors. When I model the character with the eyeballs in his sockets, I'd put a skelegon in the center of each eyeball. Then I'd stick an eyeball in another layer and center it. When I bring the model into layout I'll convert the skelegons for the eyeball anchors and the rest of the bones I'll make in Layout.

Myagi
03-26-2009, 09:34 PM
Thanks for the info.

My main area of use is lower poly (and lower bone count) game content, where it seems a bit more necessary to "force" weights to get it as good as possible with limited geometry. IIRC it was also easier for my export/import tools to use the wmaps exclusively. I was quite happy to find vertex paint when I first started with those, but I can see how it's more convinient to avoid it when possible.

SplineGod
03-26-2009, 11:57 PM
Even for games or other apps requiring WMs I still find it easier to pick geometry directly and generate WMs that way. Vertex paint sounds cool but in my experience its more of a pain then its worth. I think its old and outdated. Also generating WMs from skelegons also sounds good but then you have to spend a significant amount of time erasing the WMs from unwanted areas etc etc.

ericsmith
03-27-2009, 09:16 AM
I just use the draw bones tool in layout. I rig half the character that way then mirror the bones over. If you have IKGoals setup it will mirror those too.
Theres not many reasons to use skelegons for character rigging these days since the bone tools do everything for the most part that skelegons do and none of the headaches.

Again, there's no headaches if you know how to use the tool. But there are definitely advantages. I like the fact that I can select any number of skelegons and manipulate them with all of the tools available in modeler. The bone tools in Layout are no where near as sophisticated, so you can accomplish the same thing ultimately, but the process is a lot more tedious.

Also, Once you get a skelegon structure built that you like, it's very simple to copy and paste it into a new character. Just align to fit, bring into Layout, convert, and everything is rested and ready to go.

It's also interesting to note that I've basically always used skelegons instead of creating bones in layout, and I've NEVER had the issue that I've heard about over and over where reloading a scene makes the character go all wonky, and you have to re-rest every bone in the hierarchy. Now that sounds like a headache.

Eric

RebelHill
03-27-2009, 09:39 AM
It's also interesting to note that I've basically always used skelegons instead of creating bones in layout, and I've NEVER had the issue that I've heard about over and over

me neither... i always keep hearing about "oh skelegons do this"... or the other classic "rpr does that".... Ive never had issues with either... and both work for me everytime... as i expect them too... I think there must be some lil gotchas which arent well known, or so easy to pick out as the root of folks problems.

SplineGod
03-27-2009, 10:18 AM
Anythings easy if you know how to do it.
Ive seen the issues Ive described bite people learning to use skelegons over and over. Even using the bone up handles you get times where its hard to predict how using them will effect the pitch orientation of the child and more times then not you end up having to tweak in layout anyways.
I adjust skelegons in layout to fit new characters all the time including ones that have motion data applied already via mocap...no problems. It makes more sense to rig where the character will be animated and deformed. SKelegons are and always were a hack even admitted b the original developer because of the seperation of layout and modeler. I never have rigs that come back into layout unrested again or RPR problems. Typically I find thatits because ppl forget to Rest the bones or rest one or two or leave a bone off etc. Simple things to fix.

OnlineRender
03-27-2009, 10:36 AM
Question : i have used skelogons " please dont shout at me " ive converted them into bones , i have weight map , but i dont really need to use it , the mesh stays fluent .

but i cant apply ik , when i right click on the model , nothing happens so , i goto the properties panal and apply ik booster ,

i had it working pretty good , but i got physical dump error on laptop " running to much software at the time " when i went back to the save file it was corrupt so i went to my back up , now i cant apply IK , or control the ik stop or ik fix ect ....

where im i going wrong doing my head in .

ericsmith
03-27-2009, 10:53 AM
Even using the bone up handles you get times where its hard to predict how using them will effect the pitch orientation of the child and more times then not you end up having to tweak in layout anyways.

If you use "Edit Skelegons", yes. If you use "Rotate Skelegons", you have clearly marked HPB handles that work exactly as you would expect every time.


SKelegons are and always were a hack even admitted b the original developer because of the seperation of layout and modeler.

Yeah, and IKB was a hack (admitted by the original developer) to get dynamics onto bones. That's an irrelevant point.

What's important is that there are multiple ways to accomplish the same goal, each with their own benefits and caveats. Just because you prefer one way doesn't make the other ones worthless.

Eric

SplineGod
03-27-2009, 02:41 PM
I dealt with the developer of IKB on many occassions over a long period of time and never once did he say to me that IKB was a hack. I would say that if it was in any way hacked in it was due to limitations in the LS SDK. That would mean to me that pretty much most plugins laid on top of LWs SDK is a hack.

Yes, there are many ways to get to the same point but hat would imply that one way is going to be more efficient over other ways. My particular POV is based on having done this in productions for many years from very large to very small. working alone and rigging for large groups of people as opposed to simple projects from home.

ericsmith
03-27-2009, 03:50 PM
Yes, there are many ways to get to the same point but hat would imply that one way is going to be more efficient over other ways. My particular POV is based on having done this in productions for many years from very large to very small. working alone and rigging for large groups of people as opposed to simple projects from home.

No, it simply means that 3d is a complex discipline, and one solution may not solve every need in every pipeline. My POV is also based on working on both small and quick jobs as well as complex, large scale projects.

I'm curious, do you actually think that because I've been successful enough in my career to give me the opportunity to run my own studio and pursue my own projects, that somehow I don't know what I'm doing?

Eric

SplineGod
03-27-2009, 04:46 PM
Eric,
I think it boils down to it can be complex if you make it complex. Generallly people tend to overcomplicate things. I can also work from home and call it a studio too. The difference is rigging for yourself vs rigging for lots of people. Its the scope of the project.
On top of that Ive also taught this for years. In that time you learn very quickly what things people get and what they dont get. Theres a huge difference between rigging when you have some sort of idea based on experience as to what youre doing because you know where the bear traps are vs complete newbies who dont know where the pitfalls are.

Megaladon.
Maybe maestro works for you. Ive used it and I find it clunky. Its definately not something I would attempt to throw into a TV production with tight deadlines. Its too constraining IMO.

ericsmith
03-27-2009, 05:08 PM
The difference is rigging for yourself vs rigging for lots of people.

Uh, I'd say I've got experience in both.


Megaladon.
Maybe maestro works for you. Ive used it and I find it clunky. Its definately not something I would attempt to throw into a TV production with tight deadlines. Its too constraining IMO.

Hmm. Here's what someone with experience in TV production with tight deadlines had to say all the way back at version 1:

"The rigging parts of maestro are top notch, but rigging and character control is really a subset of what it does. The complete controller system within it is just amazing. Its more like having a new type of scene editor/controller that is cumstomizeable. Ive had to do some projects that required lots of channels and envelopes from different parts of lightwave to be orchestrated all at once. This includes endmorphs, color maps, bump maps, HV settings, particle birthrate envelopes and so forth all having to do different things at the same time. Maestro makes it a snap. The bottom line is that its way more flexible and powerful then anyone really knows yet."

Doesn't sound very clunky or constraining to me.

Eric

SplineGod
03-27-2009, 05:40 PM
To say its clunky is an opinion, to say its not clunky is also an opinion with no more or less weight to the arguement.
Controlling particles and HVs isnt what Id consider to be character rigging related. Ive setup slider panels that allowed me to easily control complex vfx stuff as well.
I rarely bother with rigging hands that way anymore because usually I can get to animating far quicker then taking the time to create complex controls. Plus LWs expression system is damn clunky and anything built to rely on it IMO is going to be clunky. This is why were all waiting to see what core holds in store.

SplineGod
03-27-2009, 07:27 PM
Kind of done... what Ive found is that driving fingers with sliders can be very limiting because you really need to setup a way to override teh slider controls so that the hands can hit more specific poses. It takes a long time to rig that way and is usually more trouble then its worth. Generally Ill do hands with selection sets or in IKB I can create hand poses and reuse them anywhere, anytime plus be able to create new poses or positions at will.

ericsmith
03-27-2009, 08:21 PM
To say its clunky is an opinion, to say its not clunky is also an opinion with no more or less weight to the arguement.

And that's exactly the point I've been trying to get across, except in regards to the topic of skelgons vs. bones in Layout. The thing is, if you prefer to set up bones in Layout rather than using skelegons, then great. If others find a benefit to using skelegons, good for them too.

But you tend to come across with the attitude of "if you don't agree with me, you're an amature and don't know what you're talking about". It's not very polite or professional.


Controlling particles and HVs isnt what Id consider to be character rigging related. Ive setup slider panels that allowed me to easily control complex vfx stuff as well.

Of course you skipped the part about the rigging tools being top notch, and the controller being "amazing", and it being more flexible and powerful than anyone really knows yet.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about the pros and cons of Maestro. I simply want to point out that there are plenty of professional 3d artists that have different opinions then yours (or mine) in many different aspects of 3d. I don't think the person who said that quote would appreciate being talked down to just because they didn't find Maestro to be clunky or constraining.

Eric

SplineGod
03-27-2009, 08:33 PM
I still stand by what I said about skelegons vs bones.
Theres no direct link back and forth between bones and skelegons. Once theyre converted to bones you cant go into model and make adjustments and have those changes seamlessly propogate back to layout. This is even more of a pain with even a basic rig with IK.
I dont see how trying to jump back and forth this way is somehow intuitive and less complex then simply creating and editing bones directly where the action is going to take place.

ericsmith
03-27-2009, 09:02 PM
Theres no direct link back and forth between bones and skelegons. Once theyre converted to bones you cant go into model and make adjustments and have those changes seamlessly propogate back to layout.

There's at least one free plugin (from Dodgy) that gives exactly this functionality.

But that's not really the point for me. I find it much easier to do the initial bone creation and placement in modeler. There are just more sophisticated editing tools in that arena, especially if you're dealing with something like 130 bones like in my biped rig.

Once you convert the skelegons to bones in Layout, they're no different than if you had created them directly there, and you can do additional fine tuning using layout's bone edit tools.

So if you approach the workflow properly, you can have the best of both worlds. You can keep a library of skeletal structures, copy and paste them into a character and do an initial fit using all the tools that Modeler puts at your disposal, load the character into Layout, turn the skelegons into bones with one click, and if your initial bone placement isn't perfect, continue working in Layout as if you had started there in the first place.

There's nothing akward or inefficient about it at all.

Now if you're more comfortable creating and positioning all those bones for each character entirely in Layout, fine. But there are other perfectly reasonable ways of getting the job done than just your way.

SplineGod
03-27-2009, 10:01 PM
Sure youve got plugins that do that. Castius has some too. Problem is that LW changes and many times the plugins dont. Some place dont like plugins brought in without being vetted first and so on.

Theres not a lot you can do in modeler to skelegons that cant be done in layout. One thing thats another problem esp for newbies is that you have skelegons at strange angles to each other. Then you try and figure out where the pitch plane should be for a certain skelegon when its parent is at a strange angle. You have to adjust the bone up handle on the parent to effect the child and you really dont know if it was done properly until you check it in layout where you end up trying to fix the mess when it would have been faster to simply draw the bones in layout and get it right immediately.
Also skelegons sometimes force you to draw the bones in a non logical or intuitive way just to keep the bone up handles the right way. To me its logical to draw a leg from a side view but with skelegons doing so screws up the pitch plane. The skelegons have to drawn from the front or back view then edited from the side. Its definately not intuitve.
Things get more complicated if you have expressions, IK, motion modifiers etc on a rig and you want to go back and forth. It becomes a complicated mess again.
If you have skelegons not welded to others then those have to be parented in layout which can have its own set of headaches. In layout you draw from the side and things line up. You add a child bone and its already parented and you can move it away from the parent. With bone twist you can adjust the pitch of that bone without having to twist the parent to effect the child and so on.
Ive taught this for many many years to hundreds of people and in that time Ive seen what really screws people up. All things being equal it is easier and more efficient to just work with bones.
Its easy to save out a rig file with IK etc still in place and reuse the rig. Not so with skelegons. You can also swap the character for a null object and simply use the same rig with an object replace. Thats pretty easy to do and youre ready to go immediatly which is not the case with skelegons.
Ive been thru all the methods, worked with people using different methods and have taught it. Theres reasonable and more reasonable ways and skelegons are the generally the least reasonable.

ericsmith
03-27-2009, 10:48 PM
Well, most of the pitfalls you're describing points to the fact that you're unfamiliar with the rotate skelegons tool, which is the key to solving pitch plane issues.

So it's clear that your point of view is limited by your knowlege (or lack thereof) of certain tools. There's nothing wrong with that, as it's unlikely any LW user has complete intimate knowlege of every aspect of the program and every possible workflow.

I can say from my own personal experience, and how I use the tools, that integrating skelegons into the workflow is not akward or inefficient. And I'm an efficiency junkie.

But I certainly woudn't criticize anyone for doing it directly in Layout, if that workflow was best for them.

Eric

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 12:31 AM
Well, most of the pitfalls you're describing points to the fact that you're unfamiliar with the rotate skelegons tool, which is the key to solving pitch plane issues.

So it's clear that your point of view is limited by your knowlege (or lack thereof) of certain tools. There's nothing wrong with that, as it's unlikely any LW user has complete intimate knowlege of every aspect of the program and every possible workflow.

I can say from my own personal experience, and how I use the tools, that integrating skelegons into the workflow is not akward or inefficient. And I'm an efficiency junkie.

But I certainly woudn't criticize anyone for doing it directly in Layout, if that workflow was best for them.

Eric

Im describing common problems newbies have with skelegons. I also know quite a few ppl experienced with LW in general who still have problems with skelegons. They were are a hack to get around teh division of layout and modeler and the fact that at the time there were no bone editing tools in layout. If skelegons were the end all then nobody would have bothered creating the current set of bone tools. Skelegons are still there the same way Steamer or other outdated tools are still in LW.
Im pretty cerain the lack of understanding of efficient and logical production methods lies more in your own head rather then my "lack of understanding" of them.
Regardless of whhich tools there are available with skelegons you dont get a accurate representation of how they will bend geometry in layout etc. How anyone can think such a workflow is better doesnt know better.
If your opinion on character workflow is based on your experience then Id suggest getting out and working someplace where theyres more then you. Most of my experience with LW rigging is on some large character heavy shows. Again when working alone or in a small group Your perception of good/efficient workflow is going to be limited as illustrated by your comments.

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 12:39 AM
Which ONLY goes to show that once you LEARN it, you can use it correctly. I am a COMPLETE newbie when it comes to CA, and yet... I can learn skelegons with ease. Go figure. :D



I have to say it's really annoying to have someone tell you that the way you work is wrong and that their way is the best way. How many times have I heard professionals say that use what works best for you and NOT insist that their way is "the best."

Guess what? I like working with skelegons and I've found it VERY easy. Once I learned the pitfalls it's really quick. I love the control you have to move things around with the Modeler tools. And you know what? If I like a bone setup in Layout I can use it again with the Save Rig format, right? And I got all of the benefits of skelegons too. And that's how *I* see it.

Thats fine. Feel free to work as you see fit. Im presenting my POV based on doing this for a very long time and working with others who have also done this for a very long time. Most ppl Ive worked with tend to eventually move away from skelegons once they see that working with bones directly without having to jump back and forth is much more efficient. I know exactly how to use skelegons and know how to avoid the gotchas. Problem is that Im just as fast with bones minus the headaches of trying to rig in what essentially are two separate apps.
Ive heard professionals say all kinds of things. Things are different as I pointd out when you know something from experience and then have to teach others who have no experience. I teach skelegons and talk about how to avoid the pitfalls, Once people see how easy and quick is is to work with bones directly going back to skelegons tends to only emphasis how painful the overall difference is. What small advantage or two skelegons might have are lost with the fact that working in two separate apps really slows down the process. You cant edit expressions, IK, Joints, deformations etc in modeler. I wonder why all the new rigging tools in LW9.6 were added into layout and not to modeler/skelegons?

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 01:56 AM
I didnt see myself putting down anyone. I simply pointed out what, in my experience, is a more efficient way of doing things. My statements are biased by many years of doing this in fast production environments under pressure. Im not going to change my mind simply because you feel offended. Disagreeing with someone isnt the same as putting them down and interpreting it that was is unprofessional so I guess were even. You dont have to like it. If I was concerned as to whether someone liked my opinion or not I would simply agree with everyone and be done with it and at the same time do anyone else a disservice who is interested in the topic.
Skelegons were added by the old dev team when they were adding new tools to modeler etc. Just because the current dev team didnt do anything to modeler doesnt mean they couldnt. Again if modeler were the most logical place to do this then Im sure it would have been done that way.

IMI
03-28-2009, 05:04 AM
Whoah, I didn't mean to start a bones vs skelegons war here. :)

Speaking as one of those said n00bs who has no interest in buying Maestro, I have to say it's been my experience thus far that bones have caused me less trouble than skelegons, as Larry "predicted" above. My first forays into rigging were in fact with skelegons simply because it seemed easier and Layout was more intimidating to me back then. But my opinion changed later and it seemed to me that like all "easier" solutions, it came with more problems.

And when I see most of the tutorials by well-known pros out there suggesting or outright saying it's better to use bones in Layout than skelegons in Modeler, I have to take their word there might be something to that.

That's not to say the skelegon people don't have a valid opinion, nor is it to say one way is overall "better" for everyone, just that I've learned mostly with bones and it's working, so I'm not going to question too much just yet whether it's the be-all end-all to rigging in LW.

I'm not sure why I'm replying to this. I'm certainly not a pro, nor even a great rigger yet, but I think I feel compelled to speak as the n00b-type Larry tries to educate, interested in learning the more mainstream way of rigging.

If there's any one thing I *think* I can say for sure though, is at least you can see your changes in rotation and position and everything else right way and interactively in Layout with bones, as you create them, as opposed to drawing and editing skelegons in Modeler.

Castius
03-28-2009, 09:50 AM
Larry You just don't get it. Eric and Megalodon has said over and over that there workflow works for them. You keep repeating that all your years of exsperence says there wrong. STOP IT It's insulting! All your years have not helped you learn how to talk to people. Or that telling new users how to work is not always the right answer.

I've been around long enough to know that both workflows work. If you don't want to help a new user to learn skelegons. Then don't reply!!! Or instead help them with skelegons to fix there problem. If they realize after learning them that they don't like them. Then help them learn how to use layout. Edit; (To be clear. I reread the begining of the thread,You did try to help this person without bring up the issue of skelegons. But it quickly turned after someone else starting talking about it.)

Stop trying to tell everyone that your experiences is better then theirs. It would be a nice change for some of these threads.

ericsmith
03-28-2009, 09:57 AM
Im pretty cerain the lack of understanding of efficient and logical production methods lies more in your own head rather then my "lack of understanding" of them.

I was specifically speaking about your lack of understanding of a particular tool, not overall production methods. The Rotate Skelegons tool, by the way, that was integrated into modeler at version 9.0 if I recall correctly, so that indicates that skelegons are more than just an outdated legacy plugin as far as Newtek is concerned.


Regardless of whhich tools there are available with skelegons you dont get a accurate representation of how they will bend geometry in layout etc. How anyone can think such a workflow is better doesnt know better.

You've completely missed the point, which was that doing initial creation of a complex skeletal structure is easier for me to do in modeler, where there are more sophisticated modeling tools. Once skelegons are converted to bones, you can test deformations and make adjustments directly in Layout. Although in my experience, after having rigged many characters, I generally get it pretty close to right on in the first pass, and often don't have to do any tweaking. I guess this comes from having good intuition about how the geometry is going to deform without needing a lot of back and forth.


If your opinion on character workflow is based on your experience then Id suggest getting out and working someplace where theyres more then you. Most of my experience with LW rigging is on some large character heavy shows. Again when working alone or in a small group Your perception of good/efficient workflow is going to be limited as illustrated by your comments.

First off, I've got plenty of experience rigging for other animators. The fact that there are hundreds of Maestro users successfully animating with the rig and animation interface I designed should be enough to prove that point. And there are at least two feature length films that I'm aware of (not including mine, of course) that have integrated Maestro into their workflow, as well as some high profile commercial work. And I've worked directly with clients doing this stuff as well, so I'm not basing my experience on just selling a plugin.

But honestly, that's all irrelevant.

You say you don't see yourself as putting down anyone, but that's exactly what you're doing. If anyone suggests that there's an alternate way of looking at things than your way, you claim that it's because they're just amatures, and don't have your vast resume of professional experience. You specifically intimated that my opinion is invalid because "I only work at home doing small projects", which couldn't be further from the truth. And I'm sorry to say, shows like "Afterworld" and "Untamed and Uncut" don't exactly support the picture you're trying to paint of yourself.

So how about you simply share how you do things, and even why you think it's the best way, without making it about how you're better or more experienced than anyone who has a different point of view?

Eric

ericsmith
03-28-2009, 09:59 AM
Thank you, Castius. Much appreciated.

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 11:20 AM
Larry You just don't get it. Eric and Megalodon has said over and over that there workflow works for them. You keep repeating that all your years of exsperence says there wrong. STOP IT It's insulting! All your years have not helped you learn how to talk to people. Or that telling new users how to work is not always the right answer.

I've been around long enough to know that both workflows work. If you don't want to help a new user to learn skelegons. Then don't reply!!! Or instead help them with skelegons to fix there problem. If they realize after learning them that they don't like them. Then help them learn how to use layout. Edit; (To be clear. I reread the begining of the thread,You did try to help this person without bring up the issue of skelegons. But it quickly turned after someone else starting talking about it.)

Stop trying to tell everyone that your experiences is better then theirs. It would be a nice change for some of these threads.

Thats ridiculous Scott. If you or anyone is going to offer help or advice do you offer it based on your experience or something else thats irrelevant? My comments were directed at IMI.

Im pretty sure everyone involved was allowed to defined their personal positions on skelegons vs bones.
There were other people besides the original person who posted that asked questions about skelegons vs bones. Im not required to answer anyones questions based on how you or others see fit.
Apparently Eric or even yourself can bring up personal experience to illustrate a point except me. im not breaking any forum rules stating my position and why. It boils down to if you dont like it then avoid the thread or dont post. If its insulting thats because you chose to react to it.
Dont put on me the responsibility of how you choose to interpret or react to my statments. Several people asked questions and I answered. If people get offended because I dont agree with them then so be it.

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 11:52 AM
I was specifically speaking about your lack of understanding of a particular tool, not overall production methods. The Rotate Skelegons tool, by the way, that was integrated into modeler at version 9.0 if I recall correctly, so that indicates that skelegons are more than just an outdated legacy plugin as far as Newtek is concerned.

Like I said compare the rigging tools added to layout over the years vs those added to modeler. Youve brought up the one vs how many added to layout?




You've completely missed the point, which was that doing initial creation of a complex skeletal structure is easier for me to do in modeler, where there are more sophisticated modeling tools. Once skelegons are converted to bones, you can test deformations and make adjustments directly in Layout. Although in my experience, after having rigged many characters, I generally get it pretty close to right on in the first pass, and often don't have to do any tweaking. I guess this comes from having good intuition about how the geometry is going to deform without needing a lot of back and forth.
I didnt miss any point or any point I consider to be important. My comments initially were directed at a couple of people asking questions not you. Those were the people I was concered with answering not you and thats MY point. If you can somehow magically make your skelegons work immediately in layout with no tweaks then you are a savant indeed or have very simple characters. I applaud your experience and intuition. Perhaps that intuitiion could be donated to Newtek to include with the next update to skelegons.


First off, I've got plenty of experience rigging for other animators. The fact that there are hundreds of Maestro users successfully animating with the rig and animation interface I designed should be enough to prove that point. And there are at least two feature length films that I'm aware of (not including mine, of course) that have integrated Maestro into their workflow, as well as some high profile commercial work. And I've worked directly with clients doing this stuff as well, so I'm not basing my experience on just selling a plugin.


But honestly, that's all irrelevant.
LOL! If its irrelevant by your own admission then why bring it up? According to Castius were not allowed to bring experience into this and certainly Maestro is the least relevant of anything discussed here. Its funny though how often you tend to bring up maestro in these discussions.


You say you don't see yourself as putting down anyone, but that's exactly what you're doing. If anyone suggests that there's an alternate way of looking at things than your way, you claim that it's because they're just amatures, and don't have your vast resume of professional experience. You specifically intimated that my opinion is invalid because "I only work at home doing small projects", which couldn't be further from the truth. And I'm sorry to say, shows like "Afterworld" and "Untamed and Uncut" don't exactly support the picture you're trying to paint of yourself.
Cmon Eric, whos being insulting? Whos starting the flaming here? When I said working from home or small projects I was speaking in general to ANYONE whos only experience is doing that level of rigging. You chose to interpret those remarks as being directly as you personally. Its a case of you being way overly sensitive.
If this is how you handle things you probably should find another field to be in.

So how about you simply share how you do things, and even why you think it's the best way, without making it about how you're better or more experienced than anyone who has a different point of view?
Thats exactly what I did do. As usual when you show up things always take that strange downturn and you end up making it personal. How mahy times have you used the word experience referring to yourself during this discussion? Apply the same standards to yourself that youre trying to apply to me. Again Eric, if you cant take differing opinions without getting bent out of shape everytime then this probably isnt the field for you to be working in.

Carm3D
03-28-2009, 01:37 PM
I am very glad I posted in this thread. My two cents purchased me oh so much more in entertainment value. ;D

ericsmith
03-28-2009, 02:10 PM
Cmon Eric, whos being insulting? Whos starting the flaming here?

Okay, let's cut to the chase. This thread started to go downhill when you stated that skelegons were nothing but a hack and the only reason they're still in Lightwave is for legacy reasons like steamer. That's the kind of comment that has no value, and are designed to provoke.

And you were the one to start the whole "my opinion comes from vast experience working in big studios" thing.


When I said working from home or small projects I was speaking in general to ANYONE whos only experience is doing that level of rigging. You chose to interpret those remarks as being directly as you personally. Its a case of you being way overly sensitive.
If this is how you handle things you probably should find another field to be in.

Give me a break. Of course that comment was directed at me. You were replying to my post, and you were angry because I responed to your post about skelegons being a hack by reminding you of the similarity of IKB's history in LW.


Thats exactly what I did do. As usual when you show up things always take that strange downturn and you end up making it personal. How mahy times have you used the word experience referring to yourself during this discussion? Apply the same standards to yourself that youre trying to apply to me. Again Eric, if you cant take differing opinions without getting bent out of shape everytime then this probably isnt the field for you to be working in.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that two other people expressed frustration about the way you disrespect anyone who doesn't agree with you before I ever said anything about it.

I have no problem with differing opinions. I actually like a good debate, as it's a good way to learn more about the topic. You, on the other hand, seem to get incredibly offended if someone doesn't back down when you bully them. That would seem to be more of a problem in this or any career (unless you're lucky enough to have "emperor" or "dictator" as a career).

Eric

RebelHill
03-28-2009, 02:17 PM
get incredibly offended if someone doesn't back down when you bully them. That would seem to be more of a problem in this or any career (unless you're lucky enough to have "emperor" or "dictator" as a career).

surgeons??? they say pretty much what they want to whom they want... usually something degrading to patients... or sexually loaded to nurses.

Mike_RB
03-28-2009, 03:10 PM
I dont really get this thread.

Skelegons aren't a 'rig'. They are a placeholder used to create deformers with a one way command, that's not a rig (bones != rig). In LW9.6 if you want to save a rig you have to save a scene that you 'load from scene' into other scenes.

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 03:19 PM
Eric theres a difference between liking a good debate and simply enjoying causing problems. I directed the majority of my comments to the appropriate people who asked the questions. you already know that I could care less what you think or feel about most things in general. It amazes me that you ***** at me about the very thing youre doing. You go all to pieces if others dont agree with you. State your case, defend your view by all means but stop making it into a personal vendetta. Everytime a thread like this starts I can count on you to do what you do now. Get a new hobby, girlfriend...SOMETHING!

jasonwestmas
03-28-2009, 03:33 PM
Kind of done... what Ive found is that driving fingers with sliders can be very limiting because you really need to setup a way to override teh slider controls so that the hands can hit more specific poses. It takes a long time to rig that way and is usually more trouble then its worth. Generally Ill do hands with selection sets or in IKB I can create hand poses and reuse them anywhere, anytime plus be able to create new poses or positions at will.

I thought the idea behind driving large sets of bones was to get it into the general pose quickly and then tweak it by hand as needed. I would want to do that rather than select a bunch of bone chains by hand and additively rotate and move them.

RebelHill
03-28-2009, 05:02 PM
Get a new hobby, girlfriend...SOMETHING!

yeah... this kinda sums up whos got the bigger problem imo.

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 05:48 PM
Megaladon,
So what youre saying is that you feel that Erics actions and reactions are perfectally measured and reasonable. Problem is that on this and other venues he jumps in, does what he claims I do then acts like the victom. Look up any discussions son IKBoost for example. Hes perfectly reasonable so long as we discuss what he wants to discuss in the way he wants it discussed.Erics take on IKB when its discussed definately isnt his current live and let live attitude in this thread. Maybe you dont see it but it definately gets old quickly. Eric knows full well I have less then zero interest in discussing, debating or communicating with him and Ive made it clear elsewhere to him. Yet here he is doing his thing and acting, as I said, like hes some kind of victom. THAT is pathetic. If you or others feel that you are experienced enough at rigging to know what youre doing then feel free to state your view. Im simply doing the same thing. If you disagree then thats fine too. Allow me the privilege of doing the same. Just dont get all bent out of shape if I defend my position on a topic I feel pretty familar with rather then caving simply to keep from ruffling some feathers.

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 05:49 PM
I thought the idea behind driving large sets of bones was to get it into the general pose quickly and then tweak it by hand as needed. I would want to do that rather than select a bunch of bone chains by hand and additively rotate and move them.

True enough which I do usually with selection sets and/or IKB by sharing and reusing poses. The problem is that rigging hands and fingers to have that sort of flexibility is a real pain in LW and you usually end up with less flexibility then you need.

jasonwestmas
03-28-2009, 05:57 PM
True enough which I do usually with selection sets and/or IKB by sharing and reusing poses. The problem is that rigging hands and fingers to have that sort of flexibility is a real pain in LW and you usually end up with less flexibility then you need.

Yes, I'm definitely looking for a better solution from NT with Core when they get that far. Even a better selection set editor of some type would be nice.

jasonwestmas
03-28-2009, 06:07 PM
Guys, relax, SG just has some strong opinions, I would rather have that than an indecisive person who doesn't offer any ideas of a better solution. If things don't work for you they don't. Even if he is wrong, does it really matter if you make the whole world know? I've said some pretty silly things. . . but whatever. . .I hope we can put this High School mentality behind us here on the forums.

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 06:40 PM
Thanks Jason, youve put it the best I think. :)

ericsmith
03-28-2009, 08:20 PM
Guys, relax, SG just has some strong opinions, I would rather have that than an indecisive person who doesn't offer any ideas of a better solution. If things don't work for you they don't. Even if he is wrong, does it really matter if you make the whole world know? I've said some pretty silly things. . . but whatever. . .I hope we can put this High School mentality behind us here on the forums

Strong opinions are fine. I actually admire them. But Larry has a long history of antagonizing and berating those who don't agree with him. He's even been banned for it (not here, but elsewhere).

I hate getting caught up in this stuff, but I have a right to be here just as much as he does, and I'm not going to let him bully me around. That's why I choose to call him out on his behavior.

Eric

jasonwestmas
03-28-2009, 09:24 PM
Well, just let us know your experiences too Eric and all will be fine with me. Didn't mean to state the obvious here. I just hate it when cool people fight.

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 09:37 PM
Eric you need to take care of your own behavioral issues before pointing the finger at anyone else. Much of your behavior is viewed by others as being combative and antagonistic. You admit that you like debate but I think your love for it spills over into antagonizing.
Nobody here has ever suggested that you cant come. Nobodys ever bullied you that Ive ever seen. This is why I prefer not to speak to you at all. If you didnt speak to me, comment on my comments then things would be fine. You already know that I really dont want to deal with you so why push it? Ignore me and Ill ignore you.
If you feel the need to disagree to someone else in a thread as to my remarks feel free to. Ill do the same when it comes to yours or anyone elses remarks that I disagree with. Other then that dont address any of your comments to me and Ill be more then happy to do the same. :thumbsup:

ericsmith
03-28-2009, 09:53 PM
The one thing I don't understand is... skelegons (as Mike_RB stated) are just placeholders. You can manipulate them and position them in Modeler but once they're in Layout they act just like bones. If you created them correctly in Modeler - and it doesn't take THAT much experience to do so - in Layout you do the same things as you would with bones created in Layout. And you can change them just the same.

Exactly. (And I did try to make that point a couple of times).

Eric

Mike_RB
03-28-2009, 10:12 PM
bones still aren't a 'rig'. They are barely the starting point for a rig.

SplineGod
03-28-2009, 10:21 PM
I completely agree here. I've ALWAYS thought that Larry and Eric were cool. I have Maestro and LOVE the rigs it comes with. I have MANY of Larry's DVDs from Kurv and like the training allot. But this is one of those times where it seems quite obvious that Larry is lording his opinion above all others and demeaning those who he thinks are doing it wrong - all because of his years of production experience. Perhaps he does not see this, but apparently several of us here DO. It seems rather obvious when going back and re-reading his posts again.

It would have been significantly more productive had he simply said that "in my experience I've found skelegons don't work as well as boning directly in Layout. Having said that, some people prefer skelegons and that's just fine - whatever works." Which he did NOT say, but continued to say that HIS way was the BEST way due to substantial professional experience. I don't appreciate the condescension one bit. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but insisting on pushing it down ones throat his not welcome.

The one thing I don't understand is... skelegons (as Mike_RB stated) are just placeholders. You can manipulate them and position them in Modeler but once they're in Layout they act just like bones. If you created them correctly in Modeler - and it doesn't take THAT much experience to do so - in Layout you do the same things as you would with bones created in Layout. And you can change them just the same. In any event, I don't appreciate being told that there is only ONE BEST WAY to work. Dan Ablan has said it in many of his DVDs - use what works best for you; there is no one right way to work.

And I guess that's all I'll say about this. I just hope we've entertained Carm a little bit more! ;)

When it comes to certain things WE ALL value our own opinions especially when its based on experience. Thats common sense. Im not beating anyone with it or Lording over as you claim. Youre reading TEXT that Ive TYPED here and anything beyond that youve injected into it yourself. I cant control how you or anyone interprets words on a screen.

Keep in mind that there were two people asking for advice and Eric wasnt one of them. Those people were reading the various posts. As jason pointed out I gave my views based on personal experience which is all we can do right?

I doubt anyone here is hired or called upon to give an opinion other ethen their own when called for. Im expected to be ecumenical when it comes to other peoples opinions yet I see little to no reciprocation in my direction.

ericsmith
03-29-2009, 12:15 AM
bones still aren't a 'rig'. They are barely the starting point for a rig.

Yeah, I don't think anyone here would debate that. This whole mess is just about whether or not skelegons are a legitimate tool for creating bones. (or whether or not someone is an idiot for thinking they are)

Eric

SplineGod
03-29-2009, 01:02 AM
I did not see Eric - or anyone else - claim that THEIR way is the best way... except SplineGod. There are several paths to the same goal. To say that YOURS is the best and the paths that others use are not as efficient.... is simply wrong. It is the best and efficient for YOU. If you can't see what others here have also seen in your posts, then it's quite obvious that I'm not going to convince you.

And you may have the last word. I will continue working as I do and KNOW that what I am doing is best FOR ME. Which... is what you should have said in the first place without going into a major defense of "boning in Layout is better than skelegons in Modeler."

Thats fine you can disagree with me. Nobody is going to die if you do or dont. The whole point is that those who asked the questions originally got to see differing points of view with reasons why. I wasnt trying to educate Eric because its not something Im remotely interesting in attempting to do.
If I think my way is the best way then thats what Im going to say. Im not going to try and make my responses all PC just to insure someones feathers dont get ruffled simply because, as Jason put it, I have strong opinions on the subject. I explained my POV clearly. Those who asked the questions can determine for themselves via putting it to the test which works best for them. IMI in fact sounds like he did try and found bones better. I hope hes not attacked or his opinion disparaged because he stated so.
When you say that "Im simply wrong" is that your opinion? If Im wrong in your opinion that maybe your wrong in yours. Why is it wrong for me to make a case for my opinion but you can blanketly state that Im wrong just because YOU say so?
Again, nobody here has the right to dictate to anyone else how they SHOULD have stated or worded something.

RebelHill
03-29-2009, 05:10 AM
hmmm... in my "experience"... experience itself counts for very little... its OUTPUT that matters to me.

I just finished working on a couple pieces with a guy with over 25 yrs of experience in the animation industry, a lot more than me... hell... he used to produce some stuff, shows, commercials, etc that i used to watch as a kid...

So I do one piece, he does the other (it was two sponsor idents)... and guess what... his is utter BOLLOCKS.... things are floating all over the place, his timing and spacing is for crap... and while it takes me 3 days to get format specs for delivery cos he wont let me talk to the folks on the receiving end incase i "cut him out"...

End of the day, imho... experience, matters not... its the quality of what u turn out that matters... and how u treat the folks u work with.

So as someone who loves to argue... but not on the internet... any chance of this going back on topic... or did everything pertinent already get said?

Castius
03-29-2009, 10:08 AM
I think Darth Buss questions has basically answered.


Hello.

I have this animal that i created with skelegons in modeler. When i take it to layout and convert skelegons to bones, set up pivīs and all, and then save all objects and the scene, next time i load it the animal is loaded with skelegons and i have to do it all over.

Is there a way to keep the bone-rig with the animal?

Thanks for your patience with the newbie.

As Larry said bones are saved in layout. You can not save your rig inside the Lightwave object. Once your done setting things up in layout. You should save there and from that point forward you should be working in layout.