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Chuck
03-25-2009, 05:55 PM
The LightWave CORE Page (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/index.php) has been updated with a couple new screenshots and two videos! Jay Roth takes a look at GPU subdivision surface support and selection, and Jarrod Davis takes a look at using the modifier stack in modeling operations.

Carm3D
03-25-2009, 06:06 PM
Of all days you choose TODAY to post this? I just posted another rigging tutorial video. I've been core-blocked!!

Just kidding.. Thanks for posting this, I am eager to learn more core for shore.

hrgiger
03-25-2009, 06:25 PM
Sorry Carm, didn't you know? It was my suggestion in the CORE forums to wait until you posted another rigging tutorial. Chuck and Jay heartily agreed.


Ok, not really.

cresshead
03-25-2009, 06:28 PM
core blimey..looking neato!

multipass
03-25-2009, 06:44 PM
are we going to have to grab the widget to translate now, or is that going to be optional. Originally i hated not having one, but now i actually prefer not having to grab a widget to move geometry.

sorry if it was mentioned in the video my sound is broken

Carm3D
03-25-2009, 06:48 PM
Sorry Carm, didn't you know? It was my suggestion in the CORE forums to wait until you posted another rigging tutorial. Chuck and Jay heartily agreed.

A Corespiracy! I knew it!

cresshead
03-25-2009, 07:53 PM
looks like people arn't seeing this post!..or the vids!

grn
03-25-2009, 09:24 PM
Looks smoothly running but I get a feeling that the application is now aimed for organic modeling. Where's all the numeric info ?Does it have coordinate rounding & quad view ? Is it really good for accurate hard surface modeling ? Is it just an "engineering skin" that lacks stuff ?

jameswillmott
03-25-2009, 09:42 PM
Looks smoothly running but I get a feeling that the application is now aimed for organic modeling. Where's all the numeric info ?Does it have coordinate rounding & quad view ? Is it really good for accurate hard surface modeling ? Is it just an "engineering skin" that lacks stuff ?

I'd say it's just an engineering skin that lacks stuff.

IMI
03-26-2009, 06:01 AM
are we going to have to grab the widget to translate now, or is that going to be optional. Originally i hated not having one, but now i actually prefer not having to grab a widget to move geometry.

sorry if it was mentioned in the video my sound is broken

I think you're going to want to have a widget, especially if it has more action center options.

Kuzey
03-26-2009, 07:26 AM
Looks good so far....I love the selection methods.

Just a question about the instancing video. Can you limit which instance gets updated and which doesn't when modifying the master object...or does the change affect all clones.

Can you add a randomize modifier/filter to each clone that will filter the amount of change it gets from the master parent. Eg. say you create a tree model and you clone it 30 times, can you randomize the height of each clone, the branch thickness and branch twists...number of leaves etc. So you end up with 31 different or slightly different trees instead of exact copies. And can this be done with a modifier/filter instead of doing it by hand.

Kuzey

StereoMike
03-26-2009, 07:46 AM
In the modifier stack video - can it be there's over 4 minutes of black screen at the end? That's what VLC indicates, dunno, if this is a glitch in VLC.

Kuzey
03-26-2009, 07:55 AM
In the modifier stack video - can it be there's over 4 minutes of black screen at the end? That's what VLC indicates, dunno, if this is a glitch in VLC.

I got that as well with the QuickTime player...looks like someone forgot to check the video before uploading it.

Kuzey

Limbus
03-26-2009, 07:55 AM
In the modifier stack video - can it be there's over 4 minutes of black screen at the end? That's what VLC indicates, dunno, if this is a glitch in VLC.
No, there are 4 minutes of black. I guess its now official NewTek style to mess something up in every presentation. :confused:

iconoclasty
03-26-2009, 07:58 AM
The audio was also a few seconds out of sync for me.

cresshead
03-26-2009, 08:08 AM
someone fixed that vid over on HC forums...there should be a fixed version uploaded today over on the core page soon too

shrox
03-26-2009, 08:12 AM
My basic question. How much relearning will be involved with using Core? I really don't like the way some programs (Photoshop and Premiere) move stuff around with every new release. How different will my mouse movements be with Core as compaired with Lightwave 9.6?

Titus
03-26-2009, 08:38 AM
My basic question. How much relearning will be involved with using Core? I really don't like the way some programs (Photoshop and Premiere) move stuff around with every new release. How different will my mouse movements be with Core as compaired with Lightwave 9.6?

I don't mind relearning, just hope Core is smarter than LW. Like instead of selecting two points on modeler, apply weld and then click over the stupid confirmation "two points welded" to continue, then deselect the new point to continue... again.

shrox
03-26-2009, 08:41 AM
I don't mind relearning, just hope Core is smarter than LW. Like instead of selecting two points on modeler, apply weld and then click over the stupid confirmation "two points welded" to continue, then deselect the new point to continue... again.

I do mind alot of relearning, otherwise one might as well learn a different program, and just stick with LW.

Lightwolf
03-26-2009, 08:53 AM
Like instead of selecting two points on modeler, apply weld and then click over the stupid confirmation "two points welded" to continue...

Change your Alert Level to Medium or Low and it's gone...

Cheers
Mike

Titus
03-26-2009, 09:02 AM
Change your Alert Level to Medium or Low and it's gone...

Cheers
Mike

That's not my point.

Nicolas Jordan
03-26-2009, 09:02 AM
My basic question. How much relearning will be involved with using Core? I really don't like the way some programs (Photoshop and Premiere) move stuff around with every new release. How different will my mouse movements be with Core as compaired with Lightwave 9.6?

Most of the time it is good to learn something different and new especially if it has a minor learning curve. It keeps the mind fresh and helps prevent alzheimer's. :)

I'm pretty sure Core will have a much smaller learning curve that going from Lightwave to modo. New Core architecture, tools and functionality will without a doubt require us relearn some things. I think the things we may miss the most will be the longtime glitches and mannerisms in Lightwave that we have learned to take advantage of and leverage. It's some of the little things we are used to that may not be there in Core, but I'm sure there will be new things that show up in Core that the developers never intended that we can take and use to our advantage.

Tobian
03-26-2009, 09:04 AM
Shrox.. err.. the programme is being re-written from the ground up! Everything is moving round - EVERYTHING. While it might be able to be able to make it look quite similar to current LW, and adjust all the shortcuts to be like old one's, you'd probably then be missing out on the new workflow. Still too early to say, but any similarities between core and current LW are by the looks of things only superficial. That might be enough for you, might not? :)

Fantastic vids, other than the glitching errors and synching things. I can't wait to see more!

*Pete*
03-26-2009, 09:08 AM
I don't mind relearning, just hope Core is smarter than LW. Like instead of selecting two points on modeler, apply weld and then click over the stupid confirmation "two points welded" to continue, then deselect the new point to continue... again.

change the alert level.

if i remember it correctly there is also an option to have the welded points automatically deselected after welding too...

Titus
03-26-2009, 09:15 AM
change the alert level.

if i remember it correctly there is also an option to have the welded points automatically deselected after welding too...

After reading two similar comments, maybe I couldn't make my point. I'm pretty proeficient with LW but I want a smarter program, the Core preselection behaviour is one of those things that make a program smarter.

Andyjaggy
03-26-2009, 09:20 AM
I do mind alot of relearning, otherwise one might as well learn a different program, and just stick with LW.

Shrox, hate to break it to you but it's going to be a brand new program and you are going to have to learn it a new. That's the price of progress. That said however I am sure they will try to keep as many keyboard shortcuts as consistent as possible.

Titus
03-26-2009, 09:22 AM
I do mind alot of relearning, otherwise one might as well learn a different program, and just stick with LW.

If we want a better program, something needs to change dramatically. I was wishing this LW refoundation since version 7. In the meantime I've learned 1Blender, Maya, XSI, Houdini (a little), Animation Master and who knows what more.

IMI
03-26-2009, 10:12 AM
My basic question. How much relearning will be involved with using Core?

Right before CORE comes out, just download the latest modo demo and spend a few days with it and you should be good to go. ;)

Larry_g1s
03-26-2009, 10:26 AM
Modifier stack looks amazing! I'm looking forward to using LWCAD tools with it.

Nicolas Jordan
03-26-2009, 10:32 AM
Modifier stack looks amazing!

It will make lazy modelers of us all. :thumbsup:

shrox
03-26-2009, 10:43 AM
Modifier stack looks amazing! I'm looking forward to using LWCAD tools with it.

Here is my problem with the mod stack in 3DMax, I hope it's not going to be true with NewTek's mod stack. If you are working on a file that someone else has worked on, and because they just aren't very proficient in their workflow (lots of undos, going back several moves, etc.), it can be very difficult to figure out what the last person has done to the file, especially with tools like biped and skeletons. How will this scenario be handled in the Core mod stacks?

multipass
03-26-2009, 12:15 PM
I think you're going to want to have a widget, especially if it has more action center options.

nope, ive worked with them plenty and im much quicker without having to grab a precise point on my screen to move something.

I just hope they dont force us to use it. Im fine with an optional widget

tribbles
03-26-2009, 01:12 PM
It's looking very nice - although in the modifier stack, I saw that the subd wasn't part of the stack. Personally, I would've thought that it should've been there - although I suppose it's partially non-destructive anyway.

Perhaps the modifier stack is only for things that actually have any parameters, or I'm thinking that the modifier stack is kind of an undo/redo stack...

(video out of sync and also blank ending is also happening here).

Cageman
03-26-2009, 01:55 PM
I don't mind relearning, just hope Core is smarter than LW. Like instead of selecting two points on modeler, apply weld and then click over the stupid confirmation "two points welded" to continue, then deselect the new point to continue... again.

Ever heard about setting the Alert Level in Layout/Modeler?

:)

Cageman
03-26-2009, 01:55 PM
That's not my point.

Uh?

Then what was your point exactly?

IMI
03-26-2009, 02:31 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of a visual reference, mostly. Like the way you have the widgets in modo, you can see exactly how your selection is going to react to translation, rotation, or other editing. Because you have so many options for action center, the widget makes it really clear what's going to happen. And of course, you don't have to actually drag on the widget, you can type something in manually too.

EDIT:
But whatever works for whomever, and I agree it would be a nice bonus to be able to turn widgets on or off. I don't see why they wouldn't have that though - even current LW allows for alot of customizing of what displays and what doesn't.

Mike_RB
03-26-2009, 03:22 PM
modo and xsi use a similar system. it draws handles, you can use the handles and you get nice constrainted movement, or you click drag wherever and get screen space (xsi) or workplace (modo) movement. Best of both worlds. The auto center in modo is the same as mouse in LW, your 1st click away from the handles sets the center there, so you can scale/rotate from an arbitrary point. the click drag wherever trick is called 'hauling' a tool.

Titus
03-26-2009, 03:24 PM
Uh?

Then what was your point exactly?

I've explained it a few post before the other one ;).

OnlineRender
03-26-2009, 06:51 PM
new video on lightwave core page "keyboard shortcuts", cheers hrgiger for heads up , much better and you can see more of cores easy to use GUI "in my opp" www.newtek.com/core

plus they have fixed the videos " no dead space " and it streams yeeeee technologys great when your on 50 meg

Titus
03-26-2009, 06:52 PM
This is a comment made by someone at cgsociety forums about the modifier stack, since it makes sense to me (and not a hardcore) I'm copying here:

"Originally Posted by Jon A. Bell
A tiny nitpick: I find it strange that a modifier stack would arrange modifiers from the top down, instead of the bottom up. How many people "stack" things by putting objects underneath existing objects?

If I were beta-testing this, this is one of the first UI changes I'd insist on. Reversing this order is completely counterintuitive."

adk
03-26-2009, 07:31 PM
Sorry to say but the way it's shown atm makes perfect sense to me. Blame it on Photoshop perhaps & its long established stack.

adk




This is a comment made by someone at cgsociety forums about the modifier stack, since it makes sense to me (and not a hardcore) I'm copying here:

"Originally Posted by Jon A. Bell
A tiny nitpick: I find it strange that a modifier stack would arrange modifiers from the top down, instead of the bottom up. How many people "stack" things by putting objects underneath existing objects?

If I were beta-testing this, this is one of the first UI changes I'd insist on. Reversing this order is completely counterintuitive."

Tobian
03-26-2009, 07:34 PM
Not sure actually with that, since in other apps I have used with a history stack, such as Photoshop, they add items top down into the history. I expect since Newtek's pitch on a lot of Core is 'industry standard' then yes, it would make sense to do it like that.

dwburman
03-26-2009, 07:35 PM
That does make sense, but I think Photoshop's history stack goes from top to bottom. I may be remembering that wrong and of course, we probably shouldn't look to a 2D paint program for 3D app UI conventions.


This is a comment made by someone at cgsociety forums about the modifier stack, since it makes sense to me (and not a hardcore) I'm copying here:

"Originally Posted by Jon A. Bell
A tiny nitpick: I find it strange that a modifier stack would arrange modifiers from the top down, instead of the bottom up. How many people "stack" things by putting objects underneath existing objects?

If I were beta-testing this, this is one of the first UI changes I'd insist on. Reversing this order is completely counterintuitive."

adk
03-26-2009, 07:38 PM
PS does it top to bottom ... and I'd hazard to guess that this would be more intuitive for most of us here

GandB
03-26-2009, 07:42 PM
That's odd; Paint Shop Pro (PSP), does it the opposite way....new actions on top/oldest on the bottom.

Tobian
03-26-2009, 07:42 PM
I'm fairly sure in Cinema 4D they have the modifier stack going top down too...

OnlineRender
03-26-2009, 07:50 PM
i wouldn't look to deply into the second video for now !, it was put there to help people make a choice and buy before the deadline , who honestly cares if its up side down ? i can understand your argument but its a beta build , as soon as its launched they will gather enough feedback and make there choice then !

Sekhar
03-26-2009, 07:58 PM
I like top-down too - more intuitive and used by popular tools (PS like already pointed out and Flash). The bottom-up (LIFO) order is the literal stack definition of computer geeks, not artists IMO.

Dexter2999
03-26-2009, 08:24 PM
A "Stack" of anything would start with a foundation and build up from there like a stack of hay, bricks, or dirt.
In fact what this is, is a "history" of actions or a "list". A list starts at the top and works down the page.

Myagi
03-26-2009, 08:36 PM
here's a stack where you "pop" items off the bottom :D

http://www.trayvad.com/assets/images/RASP05-CFoldDispenser-135.jpg

(a paper towel dispenser in case that's unclear)

DragonFist
03-26-2009, 10:37 PM
I would prefer the bottom to top method; that said, however, I'm sure that it will be easy enough to make that a setting for the interface. So, the user would decide the direction.

Vujaka
03-26-2009, 11:59 PM
This is exciting news indeed. Go CORE!!!!

Completely off the point, but maybe Newtek should talk to their marketing agency..

THE END IS NEAR!!!!!!

for who, for what, should I start collecting canned food again ? Don't worry Newtek, All in light humor of course. :thumbsup: :newtek:

monovich
03-27-2009, 10:12 AM
I dunno. This didn't get me very excited. I guess it finally dawned on me that this is basically an entirely new application, and that I'm going to have to start from almost scratch with the UI, the workflow, and the plugins. That is seriously NOT exciting.

Will CORE even be a fully functional app when it gets released? Can I do everything in it that I can do in 9.6 at least? Or will be be like Modo where v1 had a few features, v2 had a few more, etc etc etc? If that is the case, I'm not sure why I wouldn't just pick up Modo, because it would seem they have less to do before they have a final product.

I think I'll skip hardCORE. If the full version of CORE looks good when it comes out then great, I'll get it, but I'd rather pay a $200-$300 price penalty on the full version than spend anything on what could be a looooong beta process.

I've always been tempted to try other 3d apps, and if I've got to start from "scratch" anyway, I may as well shop around.

-sf

Larry_g1s
03-27-2009, 10:45 AM
I've always been tempted to try other 3d apps, and if I've got to start from "scratch" anyway, I may as well shop around.

-sfI don't understand this rational Monovich...particularly as a LW user. This is the direction of making the LW we've wanted. It has to be drastically different to do just that.

But that a side...why would you want to "shop around" if you have something comparable with CORE but significantly cheaper. It doesn't make sense to me. If you're going to have to learn a 3D app from "scratch" then why not the one you've enjoyed for many years and that is still cheaper?

I'm all for learning new/other apps. I'm presently learning Maya. But it's not for the reasons you've mentioned but for diversifying myself.


here's a stack where you "pop" items off the bottom :D

http://www.trayvad.com/assets/images/RASP05-CFoldDispenser-135.jpg

(a paper towel dispenser in case that's unclear)I'm with you Myagi. I like the way NT has it presently, it makes the most sense.

Andyjaggy
03-27-2009, 10:48 AM
I dunno. This didn't get me very excited. I guess it finally dawned on me that this is basically an entirely new application, and that I'm going to have to start from almost scratch with the UI, the workflow, and the plugins. That is seriously NOT exciting.

Will CORE even be a fully functional app when it gets released? Can I do everything in it that I can do in 9.6 at least? Or will be be like Modo where v1 had a few features, v2 had a few more, etc etc etc? If that is the case, I'm not sure why I wouldn't just pick up Modo, because it would seem they have less to do before they have a final product.

I think I'll skip hardCORE. If the full version of CORE looks good when it comes out then great, I'll get it, but I'd rather pay a $200-$300 price penalty on the full version than spend anything on what could be a looooong beta process.

I've always been tempted to try other 3d apps, and if I've got to start from "scratch" anyway, I may as well shop around.

-sf

Well you summed up pretty much exactly how I have been feeling. I still signed up for Core yesterday however. Maybe it was because I was sick or something, but it just seemed like a good idea at the time. :)

GraphXs
03-27-2009, 10:48 AM
I belevie Newtek hinted it would have alot of basic features by Q4: Modeling, Animation, Lighting, rendering. I'm not sure about other stuff, say like a new version of Hypervoxels? I could be wrong, but looking at the title of the new movies:"Q1 release".

shrox
03-27-2009, 10:54 AM
I dunno. This didn't get me very excited. I guess it finally dawned on me that this is basically an entirely new application, and that I'm going to have to start from almost scratch with the UI, the workflow, and the plugins. That is seriously NOT exciting.

Will CORE even be a fully functional app when it gets released? Can I do everything in it that I can do in 9.6 at least? Or will be be like Modo where v1 had a few features, v2 had a few more, etc etc etc? If that is the case, I'm not sure why I wouldn't just pick up Modo, because it would seem they have less to do before they have a final product.

I think I'll skip hardCORE. If the full version of CORE looks good when it comes out then great, I'll get it, but I'd rather pay a $200-$300 price penalty on the full version than spend anything on what could be a looooong beta process.

I've always been tempted to try other 3d apps, and if I've got to start from "scratch" anyway, I may as well shop around.

-sf

That's exactly waht I was saying. I love using Lightwave, I fear major changes to it.

monovich
03-27-2009, 11:07 AM
I don't understand this rational Monovich...particularly as a LW user. This is the direction of making the LW we've wanted. It has to be drastically different to do just that.


hey I want LW to be all that it can be, but I'm just saying that in order to get there it may be years of even more betas and rewriting until it is that app, and when it is, you could just as well name it 3D App Extreme X, because it will be Lightwave only in name.

Do you have time to work with an app that isn't feature complete from day 1? I don't.
9.6 is feature complete enough for me. I really like it, but if it is EOL, then it seems a good time to survey the entire landscape. To instantly decide CORE is best because it is LW is a religious decision (i.e. Lightwave is my chosen faith), not a pragmatic "I need the best tool" decision.


CORE but significantly cheaper.

Cheap has VERY little to do with it. Time is money, and the best app saves you time, which saves you money. I'm fast with 9.6, and that is why I use it. How long until I'm fast with CORE? Who knows...


why not the one you've enjoyed for many years

Thats the whole point. I finally realized that CORE won't be the app I've used for many years.

For the record, I'm totally rooting for CORE, but I'm not excited about waiting for it to be an all around app. I won't jump in and buy it until I am.

JamesCurtis
03-27-2009, 11:27 AM
The vids I saw were nice so far, and it's good to see new fearures. I will be signing up for HardCore before the March 31 deadline. I like the idea of being able to get a "head start" in using and helping developing it. I'll still be able to use LW9.6 while Core is developed, so it's no big deal about usability at this point.

I was part of the 9.x betas and enjoyed that immensely. No other company I've dealt with has allowed me to use a program for nearly 2+ years, and many point releases, than NewTek.

So count on my signing up real soon. I now have the money, I'm just waiting for the check to clear.

Larry_g1s
03-27-2009, 11:42 AM
Cheap has VERY little to do with it. Time is money, and the best app saves you time, which saves you money. I'm fast with 9.6, and that is why I use it. How long until I'm fast with CORE? Who knows...Cheap has everything to do with it, in light of what I wrote "why would you want to "shop around" if you have something comparable with CORE but significantly cheaper." The assumption is that you would have something comparable with CORE, maybe not right off the bat, but that's the direction.


That's exactly waht I was saying. I love using Lightwave, I fear major changes to it.Why are the assumptions that the major changes will be for the worse? After seeing what the team did with this last cycle (while dev. the foundation to CORE), I have more confidence in them.

Andyjaggy
03-27-2009, 12:52 PM
That's exactly waht I was saying. I love using Lightwave, I fear major changes to it.

Well your gonna be left in the dust then. Your going to have to learn a new application, whether it be Core or something else. Lightwave as we know it is dead.

Cageman
03-27-2009, 03:52 PM
The interresting thing with CORE is that it has the potential of becoming equally powerfull as Maya, Houdini or XSI, but with the option of also being really fast and easy to work with.

I'm really looking forward to feedbacking NewTek on this one, since I probably will use it for a long time to come.

Lets face it... non of the other 3D-developers have this openess to ALL customers who would like to participate.

To all of you who are turning your backs towards NT and CORE; please don't come here and ***** about CORE v1.0 when it is released.

Speak now, or forever be silenced!

:D :)

Larry_g1s
03-27-2009, 04:10 PM
The interresting thing with CORE is that it has the potential of becoming equally powerfull as Maya, Houdini or XSI, but with the option of also being really fast and easy to work with.

I'm really looking forward to feedbacking NewTek on this one, since I probably will use it for a long time to come.

Lets face it... non of the other 3D-developers have this openess to ALL customers who would like to participate.

To all of you who are turning your backs towards NT and CORE; please don't come here and ***** about CORE v1.0 when it is released.

Speak now, or forever be silenced!

:D :)Man Cageman...I'm 100% with you.

Tobian
03-27-2009, 04:21 PM
Bahahaha, the usual suspects... be silenced... hahahahaha! :)

Earl
03-27-2009, 05:07 PM
and when it is, you could just as well name it 3D App Extreme X, because it will be Lightwave only in name.
I respectfully disagree. NewTek may be adding a lot of industry standards that exist in other applications, and they may be altering things a bit to make LightWave better, but it will still be LightWave. They've made that pretty clear. It's not going to be convoluted like Max and Maya. It's not going to be XSI. It can offer similar functionality, or perhaps even better, while still maintaining the LightWave ease of use.

Granted, that's a big task, and we don't know if they succeeded or not, but they went out of their way to say that it is still going to be familiar; it will still be LightWave.

What would be the business sense for NewTek to make a Maya or XSI clone? None. They have to do it differently, and better, if they want LightWave to succeed.


Or will be be like Modo where v1 had a few features, v2 had a few more, etc etc etc? If that is the case, I'm not sure why I wouldn't just pick up Modo, because it would seem they have less to do before they have a final product.
In regards to this: again, it doesn't make much sense. Modo and LightWave do not share the same long-term vision. Modo is not trying to compete toe-to-toe with the other full 3d applications. It's not going to take NewTek 7-10 years to get animation tools into LightWave Core. Even if Core 1.0 won't have all the features of 9.6 (which has been stated), I would be surprised if it took them beyond Core 2.0 to fully replace 9.6.

prometheus
03-27-2009, 06:08 PM
If the full version of CORE looks good when it comes out then great, I'll get it, but I'd rather pay a $200-$300 price penalty on the full version than spend anything on what could be a looooong beta process.

I've always been tempted to try other 3d apps, and if I've got to start from "scratch" anyway, I may as well shop around.

-sf

same feelings for me too, I do suspect thou that I will get the core once they have developed it a bit more, but the core program isnt for me Even thou
I have some suggestions to how it could be developed and improved, those thoughts could probably be forwarded anyway and in regards to how Lightwave used to work.

I sincerely wish Newtek good luck with this and they are probably doing it
in the right order.

I might have some objections to the hype marketing for this ..perhaps a simple declaration of an new core program should have been enough considering how far the development seem to have come..
and some objections to that they should perhaps think twice and not drop continued features and improvements to Lightwave until after a 10.5 cycle perhaps, but then again that ofcourse would impact the time table for the works on the core so at the end its their decision.

Meanwhile Ill continue my quest to cross the Learning threshold required
for houdini..takes time:)

Michael

iaef
03-27-2009, 06:48 PM
Maybe I got lost on the message, but once I pay for a HardCORE membership, what should I do? I have already registered, but have no idea if I need to wait, and for how long. :)

jin choung
03-28-2009, 12:30 AM
To all of you who are turning your backs towards NT and CORE; please don't come here and ***** about CORE v1.0 when it is released.

Speak now, or forever be silenced!

:D :)

i disagree.

that's kind of like saying "you can't complain if you don't vote"... only in the scenario you present, voting is a privelege that you have to pay for.

it can be painted as the odd "privelege" that you pay for but you can't possibly then portray it as a responsibility imposed with a cover charge.

there may indeed be hobbyists and students who are put off by the (not insignificant, if i may be so bold) cost of buying an unknown quantity.

also - it may turn out that those who have paid for the dubious 'privelege' of joining hardcore will have reason to b1tch loudest when decisions are made... AGAINST their ideas. because as sanity dictates - your admission ticket doesn't obligate them to actually use any of your ideas.

in which case you're paying for the privelege of being ignored. being "heard" doesn't mean much if you're not heeded. and on the other hand, just because you can be heard doesn't mean you should be...although that ends up being a real b1tch of a thing if you paid to be heard...

sigh... fraught with peril... i think so....

oh well, bon voyage you crazy kids. build well. because if it's not bad enough to abandon my investment so far but still stuffed with bad, that incessant buzzing you hear will be the sound of a certain, friendly neighborhood gadfly telling you what you gone done wrong.

: )

luck.

jin

p.s. ot - hey cageman, i didn't realize how you "purchase" your units in WIC... that sounds awesome... no base building and no unit "production", aspects of RTSs that i always hated... groovy. i think i'm gonna go for the combo pack.

IMI
03-28-2009, 04:29 AM
there may indeed be hobbyists and students who are put off by the (not insignificant, if i may be so bold) cost of buying an unknown quantity.


Yeah, there you go, that's exactly right. At this point I'd rather spend that 400 bucks on that shiny new Wacom Intuos 4 so I can permanently hook up my Intuos 3 to one of my other computers. That would be an example of a wise choice, IMO, as I'd be getting something I know would be perfectly usable and useful for my purposes, right away, not *maybe* and 9 months from now.

I would hardly call making an informed decision based upon one's financial situation and knowledge (or unintentional lack thereof) of a product such as CORE as "turning your backs towards NT and CORE".

Cageman
03-28-2009, 04:55 AM
i disagree.

that's kind of like saying "you can't complain if you don't vote"... only in the scenario you present, voting is a privelege that you have to pay for.



Exactly... I pay for it, and don't want to hear some moaning and bickering from those that refuses to invest in this oppertunity to help shape CORE v1.0.

Early adopters will always pay the highest price. Yeah... I get it cheaper, but in return I should testdrive alot and feedback as much as I can to help shape the toolset. In a sense, I will pay more than those who don't join hardCORE (not with money, but time). And, I also have to assume that once V1.0 is released in Q4, hardCORE members as well as NewTek will get the usual bashing from the usual suspects.

:D



it can be painted as the odd "privelege" that you pay for but you can't possibly then portray it as a responsibility imposed with a cover charge.

That doesn't bother me at all.




there may indeed be hobbyists and students who are put off by the (not insignificant, if i may be so bold) cost of buying an unknown quantity.

Yeah... and hardCORE membership is NOT for everyone. This is something NewTek has stated themselves.




also - it may turn out that those who have paid for the dubious 'privelege' of joining hardcore will have reason to b1tch loudest when decisions are made... AGAINST their ideas. because as sanity dictates - your admission ticket doesn't obligate them to actually use any of your ideas.

in which case you're paying for the privelege of being ignored. being "heard" doesn't mean much if you're not heeded. and on the other hand, just because you can be heard doesn't mean you should be...although that ends up being a real b1tch of a thing if you paid to be heard...


There has already been some really good suggestions made for CORE where devs have joined in and declared that they really like the idea. There have been alot of examples of tools or workflow implementations in other apps made by hardCORE members where devs have joined in and said things like "Yeah... I really like that implementation myself" etc.

This indicates that the openess for CORE developement is much greater than it ever could have been for LW9.x OB.

But again, you are not a hardCORE member, so how could you possibly know about this?

So, to make it short: no... I don't think that you are right about NewTek shutting their ears as long as the suggestions and feedback are within sane realms.




p.s. ot - hey cageman, i didn't realize how you "purchase" your units in WIC... that sounds awesome... no base building and no unit "production", aspects of RTSs that i always hated... groovy. i think i'm gonna go for the combo pack.

Yeah... it's one of those nice things about WIC; a very unique feature for an RTS, but it makes total sense when playing. You should really try out multiplayer... that is where WIC goes from very good to awesome!

:)

Cageman
03-28-2009, 04:58 AM
I would hardly call making an informed decision based upon one's financial situation and knowledge (or unintentional lack thereof) of a product such as CORE as "turning your backs towards NT and CORE".

You did see the smileys in the end of my post, right? :)

I think you took it too serious. There will ALWAYS be unhappy people that tries to find things to complain about... always, and nothing can be done about that.

:)

IMI
03-28-2009, 05:14 AM
You did see the smileys in the end of my post, right? :)

I think you took it too serious. There will ALWAYS be unhappy people that tries to find things to complain about... always, and nothing can be done about that.

:)

Well maybe I did take it too seriously, but I wasn't replying solely to what you wrote. The myriad CORE arguments have occasionally had that "blindly trust in NT" theme in them, or "you're either with us or against us". For lack of a better way to put it.
But at the same time, Newtek has taken the complete opposite approach and stated many times that people should wait if uncertain about it.

That's not to say that's what I thought you were saying, just that I chose to use your words above to illustrate that.

I really didn't mean anything directed towards you by it though. :)

Nicolas Jordan
03-28-2009, 07:11 AM
It would really be nice to see some videos on surfacing and related things in Core before March 31. I somehow get the feeling these things haven't been implemented yet by the looks of it but who knows.

Yog
03-28-2009, 07:35 AM
Basic surfacing only for first release.

frantbk
03-28-2009, 07:35 AM
Exactly... I pay for it, and don't want to hear some moaning and bickering from those that refuses to invest in this oppertunity to help shape CORE v1.0.

Early adopters will always pay the highest price. Yeah... I get it cheaper, but in return I should testdrive alot and feedback as much as I can to help shape the toolset. In a sense, I will pay more than those who don't join hardCORE (not with money, but time). And, I also have to assume that once V1.0 is released in Q4, hardCORE members as well as NewTek will get the usual bashing from the usual suspects.

You paid to have NewTek listen to you about shaping Lightwave Core. Your HardCore membership is in a specific forum that is locked from the general public. Therefore, your HardCore membership has no meaning here in the general forum. The answer is simple, if you don't like the noise here in the general forum stay in the HardCore membership forum - Your payment is for that forum, not this one.

As for your complaint about receiving a bashing in the 4Q - too bad so sad - You don't seem to have a problem right now declaring your HardCore membership as a superior right to tell people what to do here in the general forum. Once the 4Q rolls around people have the same rights to judge Lightwave core as a finished product that cost $1495.00. I'm sure the NewTek guys understand this process as part of the job - why don't you?

This is the general forum, if you don't like the noise than don't come here. NewTek has a vested interest in listening to the fence sitter from now until Core is released. After all it is the fence sitters NewTek will be after to buy Lightwave Core in the 4Q, not HardCore members. us some commonsense about who this forum is for, and what benefit NewTek receives from the views posted here by possible future customers.

jin choung
03-28-2009, 01:38 PM
I also think that Jin is correct with calling hardcore a cash grab. But while I am fine with that, I understand that Jin wants Newtek to admit that. Is that right? Why on earth would they do that?

hey oliver,

i have no expectation that nt will say that and i never told them to. i'm just constantly blowing away all the smoke screens that some devotees cling to and propagate. you may see through the haze but others cling to it.

the only thing i wanted newtek to do specifically is:

1. tell us how far along core is now. they've come a bit further in acknowledging the current state as selling this as an opportunity to help "develop". many folks have interpreted this as another "beta" prog.... but it's not beta, not alpha even. it's active first draft development.

2. core 1.0 has connotations of a completed app. like maya 1.0. it means "feature complete". if it's NOT going to be complete, they need to tell people in no uncertain terms.

frankly, if they wanted to ship "incomplete" apps, it would have been more honest to bill core initially as something less than a full app like modo. or use a <1.0 billing.

but now, they setup a situation where people can feel misled and they might have a pressure to "rush" needlessly. alas.

3. never has the criticism been about the buyers into of HC. if you have the desire, it's always been my position that you should do as you please and more power to you.

i have merely spoken for myself and perhaps my demographic - of those for whom the pre-buy info was not satisfactory and who felt they were not properly being "sold".

for us, newtek did not do enough to win us over and if their desire was to lose us for the charter membership, they have accomplished their mission.

jin

Cageman
03-28-2009, 05:55 PM
You paid to have NewTek listen to you about shaping Lightwave Core. Your HardCore membership is in a specific forum that is locked from the general public. Therefore, your HardCore membership has no meaning here in the general forum. The answer is simple, if you don't like the noise here in the general forum stay in the HardCore membership forum - Your payment is for that forum, not this one.

As for your complaint about receiving a bashing in the 4Q - too bad so sad - You don't seem to have a problem right now declaring your HardCore membership as a superior right to tell people what to do here in the general forum. Once the 4Q rolls around people have the same rights to judge Lightwave core as a finished product that cost $1495.00. I'm sure the NewTek guys understand this process as part of the job - why don't you?

This is the general forum, if you don't like the noise than don't come here. NewTek has a vested interest in listening to the fence sitter from now until Core is released. After all it is the fence sitters NewTek will be after to buy Lightwave Core in the 4Q, not HardCore members. us some commonsense about who this forum is for, and what benefit NewTek receives from the views posted here by possible future customers.

Ouch... :)

Obviosly, I wasn't too serios about my statement, since NT themselves have declared that hardCORE is NOT for everyone. You really should check the type of smileys I used in the post you quoted, ESPECIALLY the one I used after the two first paragraphs.

However, within it, there lies some truth to it as well, but it was meant in a lighthearted way. Sorry if you got offended.

All is chill and nice over here.

:)

jin choung
03-29-2009, 01:12 AM
I agree on most of your points completely, but I would like to know what you think would be best for core, Newtek and the users in this situation. Because I think, Newtek telling everyone: we don't have a plan, we have in fact nothing much, is a little counterproductive as well.

if that really is their situation, they're screwed whether they're open about it or not.

what i'm tired of is the spin. the paper thin, transparent, artless spin. trying to sell it as some priveleged opportunity on a product that isn't done and probably won't be a "legitimate" "1.0" when the time comes to deliver.

what i would have liked to have seen was some openness with the community - "we are at status .2 and the first commercial release will primarily be a modeler (think of modo+ [they'd never say that!]) but if you stick with us, we believe we will be able to deliver what you've been asking for all along."

and a roadmap of what was realistically expected for 1.0, 2.0 etc. and when they expected to have a "full lw" up and running again.

(and all their complaining about being burned by the community for failing to deliver is just SUUUUUCH ludicrous bs. you FAILED! that's the problem... NOT the community reaction! and their insistence now in trying to conduct affairs without any of the binds of ACCOUNTABILITY (i.e. you do what you say) is just.... mystifying.

1. have a reasonable plan
2. disclose your reasonable plan
3. issue a CLEAR DISCLAIMER THAT THIS IS JUST THE PLAN AND THAT IT IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE - in the big capital letters that i prefer just so that it's clear and can be cited at anyone who complains later)

and not having to pay before you find out this kind of information that consumers really should have BEFORE they buy!

but in this, i get the luxury of playing armchair qb. i don't know if that would have made them more money and if it failed spectacularly, it would be no skin off my nose either.

i just know that would not have alienated ME.

but it's their ball to do with as they wish and that is unquestionable.

jin

-EsHrA-
03-29-2009, 05:47 AM
"since NT themselves have declared that hardCORE is NOT for everyone."

lol...so its our fault now?!.. :)


mlon

hrgiger
03-29-2009, 06:29 AM
No matter what Newtek had done, there would have been plenty of criticism for it.

*Pete*
03-29-2009, 08:40 AM
3. never has the criticism been about the buyers into of HC. if you have the desire, it's always been my position that you should do as you please and more power to you.


yes, not from you.

your beef is mainly with NT/CORE and what they can show/do for you, which is ok...even though i disagree with you ;)

but there are others who express their worries about HC'ers being mislead/tricked/deceived becouse they are naive/trusting/fanboys into buying into CORE that it is not a full product at the moment.

i think that while we do agree on most things, as usual...our (non HC/HC) opinons differ from one reason and one reason alone....expectations.

i also think that the majority of non-HC people here do expect CORE to be more than it is at this stage and get dissapointed when it is not.
i believe that most HC members do have quite clear understanding of the early stage of the product.

not understanding this, the non hc'ers will think that hc people are fooled, becouse investing in a product that is not production ready for perhaps a year, or two even is a waste of time and money...which is true, if considered like that.
but what gets people into hc anyway is not the idea to produce quality from day one, it is the chance to learn the tools as they are implemented, one by one, to shape CORE to fit THEIR production style, or simply to support NT of pure fanboyism.

nobody is fooled or tricked...moneygrab?..yes and no, depends completely on intentions, nothing else.

i honestly do think that NT needs the money, but they do also need user input for finding bugs and helping to tune CORE into perfection...if the need for money is bigger than the need for beta testers, then yes..it is a moneygrab, but if the needs are equal it is not a moneygrab...it is only a smart move, dealing with several problems the same time.

as most things in life, the truth can differ from person to person and still be the truth for everyone...its all a matter of perspective.

i know i made the right choice, just as you know you made the right choice too...

no conflicts there ;)


as for 6 million polys, it is undeniably a huge improvement from old LW..displacements would be nice to see, but im totally fine if CORE cant do it at the moment, at this stage...lets see in a month, or two.
its nothing worth fighting for now, in time we will see if CORE manages to impress you or not, today it doesnt...too bad but thats life.

frantbk
03-29-2009, 09:11 AM
Ouch... :)

Obviosly, I wasn't too serios about my statement, since NT themselves have declared that hardCORE is NOT for everyone. You really should check the type of smileys I used in the post you quoted, ESPECIALLY the one I used after the two first paragraphs.

However, within it, there lies some truth to it as well, but it was meant in a lighthearted way. Sorry if you got offended.

All is chill and nice over here.

:)

Lighthearted it may have been, but it is the constant grousing by HC members about the money they paid, and how non-HC people need to shut-up. NewTek releases videos that people can download -the videos were not perfect, so people b1tched about that. To solve that problem for the b1tchers NT has gone to the steaming video so you now can't download videos anymore add replay them and really look over the Core interface.

No matter what happens you guys will always find something to b1tch about. Did many of you really need to hear every word from Jay Roth just to figure out what he was showing you? if you did then you really do have a problem using 3D software.

Did anybody notice that when they were using the rotate tool and the widget tool that the attribute requester box was void of any information? that there wasn't any ability to input numeric values while using those tools. Those are the things you should be looking at. Those are the things you should be talking about, if Lightwave core means so much to you.

My suggestion to NT is that I still want the ability to download the videos so I don't have to piss around with streaming video. I do more then just look at the pictures and listen to the marketing talk.

When the SDK package is out, I would like to see videos on this package to see what workflow and learning requirements there are. For myself the SDK package could be the make or break issue in purchasing Lightwave Core.