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Andrewstopheles
03-24-2009, 10:53 AM
I am sold on CORE - I am prepared to pay for the upgrade before it is a complete shipping product, and before it is commercially viable. Because I believe that NewTek can deliver.

---HOWEVER---

Where is the new info? What am I buying? We are 7 days away from the update deadline and the naysayer in me is in doubt that any new info is coming. I need that new info so I can make an informed decision and sleep comfortable at night after spending my hard earned money.

Give it up, Jay. And not on the last day, because that's leaving way too little time to make a rational decision.

Andrew

OnlineRender
03-24-2009, 11:01 AM
There was a 2 page spread on Core in 3D world Magazine if my memory is correct "which tends to be rather hazzy at times" I expected to see more about the product info rather than there marketing ideas but hey at least it was in there !

sorry didnt answer your question !

cresshead
03-24-2009, 11:10 AM
if your unsure...wait to you are sure...plenty of time >>december 2009 [Q4]

biliousfrog
03-24-2009, 11:12 AM
I am sold on CORE - I am prepared to pay for the upgrade before it is a complete shipping product, and before it is commercially viable. Because I believe that NewTek can deliver.

---HOWEVER---

Where is the new info? What am I buying? We are 7 days away from the update deadline and the naysayer in me is in doubt that any new info is coming. I need that new info so I can make an informed decision and sleep comfortable at night after spending my hard earned money.

Give it up, Jay. And not on the last day, because that's leaving way too little time to make a rational decision.

Andrew

If you're going to buy in anyway, why are you asking for more information?...What incentive is there to give out information when they're assured sales to panic buyers and risk losing sales to people with higher expectations?...Hold off or buy in it's entirely your decision.

littlewaves
03-24-2009, 11:16 AM
I am sold on CORE - I am prepared to pay for the upgrade before it is a complete shipping product, and before it is commercially viable. Because I believe that NewTek can deliver.

---HOWEVER---

Where is the new info? What am I buying? We are 7 days away from the update deadline and the naysayer in me is in doubt that any new info is coming. I need that new info so I can make an informed decision and sleep comfortable at night after spending my hard earned money.

Give it up, Jay. And not on the last day, because that's leaving way too little time to make a rational decision.

Andrew

I'm in exactly the same boat. I was pretty sure I'd be joining hardcore by now as they clearly stated there'd be more info before the price went up.

There really hasn't been anything much new since the botched launch vid. The March newsletter was a joke and was still bragging about the number of posts the hype generated rather than giving any new details.

The thing is it's in their interests to keep us guessing and then tell us more after the price has gone up. (yeah I know that sounds all cloak and dagger but y'know what I mean)

I wasn't expecting a whole feature set but just something to convince me that this software is actually going to get going at some point because at the moment it looks like they're still on the first page of their flipchart in the initial development.

It doesn't bode well for them sticking to having it ready by q4.

I'd really love to be wrong and I love them to give us new info in the next day or so and I would love to have a reason to give them $395 but I suspect I'll pay the price for my caution and end up paying $495 in a month (or six) which I'm sure suits them down to the ground.

AdamAvenali
03-24-2009, 11:33 AM
There was a 2 page spread on Core in 3D world Magazine if my memory is correct "which tends to be rather hazzy at times" I expected to see more about the product info rather than there marketing ideas but hey at least it was in there !

sorry didnt answer your question !

--commence hijacking--

which issue was this? i just picked up issue 114 (Killzone 2 on the cover) and havent seen the spread. though there is a nice ad for v9 right after the table of contents.

--terminate hijacking--

SBowie
03-24-2009, 12:28 PM
I was pretty sure I'd be joining hardcore by now as they clearly stated there'd be more info before the price went up.I tried to find someplace where this was stated, but the most recent posts from Jay and Chuck around the subject of 'if you need more info...' seem to be these two:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=837851&postcount=204

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=839051&postcount=533

Neither seems to imply more info should be expected prior to month end (which is not the same as saying there won't be any, of course).

OnlineRender
03-24-2009, 12:31 PM
Iam I aloud to scan the pages in and post them here !!! I dont want to get anybody in trouble ???? mainly me !

*Pete*
03-24-2009, 12:33 PM
Iam I aloud to scan the pages in and post them here !!! I dont want to get anybody in trouble ???? mainly me !

that would be a breach on a copyright...

there was another thread however, where someone wrote almost word by word what was written in the 3dworldmag about CORE.

it was in the general section...

Grolicus
03-24-2009, 12:39 PM
which issue was this? i just picked up issue 114 (Killzone 2 on the cover) and havent seen the spread. though there is a nice ad for v9 right after the table of contents.


Issue 115. No new info in the article though.
And the three industry reactions are very appropriate for this thread: " I will see how CORE develops", "but I'd need to see it", and "time will tell" respectively :hey:

Andrewstopheles
03-24-2009, 12:57 PM
If you're going to buy in anyway, why are you asking for more information?...What incentive is there to give out information when they're assured sales to panic buyers and risk losing sales to people with higher expectations?...Hold off or buy in it's entirely your decision.

Let me clarify: I am leaning very strongly towards buying in, but I was expecting more information before March 31st.

Why? To make me more comfortable with the purchase. Was this not clear in my original post?

What incentive, you ask, is there to give out more information?
Check the poll at http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94826&highlight=poll
to see many people bought in, how many won't and how many are waiting for more info.

All those people who are waiting for more info are the reason "why".
38% are either on the fence or waiting for a full feature list.

Don't try to tell me that I as a customer am somehow wrong to expect more information. NewTek isn't saying that -what they are telling us is that us more information is coming, because they seem to understand that we are justified to want more information. What is not clear is whether they will get it to us before the pricing deadline.

When is it coming? It was and is a reasonable expectation that something substantial would be posted before the March 31st deadline. No promises were made, AFAIK. And I made no promise to buy.

OnlineRender
03-24-2009, 01:00 PM
Just do what i done credit card in one hand beers in the other .


but I have a drinking problem , two hands only one mouth !

OrvilleB
03-24-2009, 01:05 PM
I agree. I had already put the purchase of Core into my March budget, but I sat up for hours last night reading posts on Newtek forum. I saw a lot of arguing, like in religion or politics, but the only thing I could find about Core was that it would concentrate on modeling. I can't possibly justify spending money in this economy without some information. I have seen businesses fail that I thought would never fail. Almost every business person I talk to tells me of a 30%-40% drop in business. I assume Newtek really needs this money. If they need it before March 31, I, and it seems a lot of other people, need some information.

Titus
03-24-2009, 01:07 PM
That poll (who many people brings to make a point) as any other poll mean nothing. You only know the opinion of the people who cast a vote, not the real universe of LW customers. We don't know the real figures to speculate, I at least don't know of any larger LW studio here who is jumping in, we`re all waiting.

coreguy
03-24-2009, 01:12 PM
They will show something before the deadline, but unless they plan on extending the date...they are not giving people very much time to decide?

If they show nothing before the deadline and postpone ...that tells me where they are at with core. Not very far!

Sekhar
03-24-2009, 01:15 PM
I sat up for hours last night reading posts on Newtek forum. I saw a lot of arguing, like in religion or politics

And advice (unsolicited) on what we should be doing - buy, wait, whatever. Anything but ask for more info now. :) Stay tight, we'll hear something.

the3dwiz
03-24-2009, 01:15 PM
About the 3DWorld story. Absolutly nothing new in there! Here the link to the LW Core Poll ( allready closed!)
Vote in issue 115's poll - LightWave CORE

http://forum.3dworldmag.com/viewtopic.php?t=11075

Make up ur own mind.

Wondering why the other Core thread got closed, without any new info???

Andrewstopheles
03-24-2009, 01:20 PM
That poll (who many people brings to make a point) as any other poll mean nothing. You only know the opinion of the people who cast a vote, not the real universe of LW customers. We don't know the real figures to speculate, I at least don't know of any larger LW studio here who is jumping in, we`re all waiting.

I disagree - the poll holds weight. It could be argued that opinionated people are more likely to vote in the poll, but it is a poll of Lightwavers about Lightwave. And not every Lightwave user voted, but around 500 did. I wouldn't suggest that their opinions are not valid or indicative of Lightwave users as a whole.

Studios are more likely to wait than freelancers or hobbyists, because the price is not an issue.

coreguy
03-24-2009, 01:24 PM
That poll holds no weight! NT marketing could have voted 500 times...

OnlineRender
03-24-2009, 01:25 PM
Great comment on that page about the guy thinking of moving to Blender , ive use blender and with the new release its even better , and its free , you will see a price war between companies soon , AD will reduce to keep in line with upcomming apps and LW has always been competive in there market " software price " ,not to discourage anybody i would wait a little and see whats comming out of the dark NT vault , i reckon people might swing and change there minds when the first build is released ! plus pluggins galore when its up and running , money is tight at the moment for some " mainly me " maybe its another sick marketing idea from NT just to keep you going , but its worked !

Titus
03-24-2009, 01:32 PM
I wouldn't suggest that their opinions are not valid or indicative of Lightwave users as a whole.

Studios are more likely to wait than freelancers or hobbyists, because the price is not an issue.

Their opinion is valid, but not indicative of anything. You only have the opinion of people who was interested to participate (that's the big problem with polls), so there's a chance many people not interested to stay with LW is not going to vote as well.

adamredwoods
03-24-2009, 02:31 PM
I've decided to wait on Core.

I'd rather focus on working with LW9.6 . Core beta would just distract me.

alvin_cgi
03-24-2009, 02:38 PM
Qfa


let me clarify: I am leaning very strongly towards buying in, but i was expecting more information before march 31st.

Why? To make me more comfortable with the purchase. Was this not clear in my original post?

What incentive, you ask, is there to give out more information?
Check the poll at http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94826&highlight=poll
to see many people bought in, how many won't and how many are waiting for more info.

All those people who are waiting for more info are the reason "why".
38% are either on the fence or waiting for a full feature list.

Don't try to tell me that i as a customer am somehow wrong to expect more information. Newtek isn't saying that -what they are telling us is that us more information is coming, because they seem to understand that we are justified to want more information. What is not clear is whether they will get it to us before the pricing deadline.

When is it coming? It was and is a reasonable expectation that something substantial would be posted before the march 31st deadline. No promises were made, afaik. And i made no promise to buy.

calilifestyle
03-24-2009, 02:55 PM
I've decided to wait on Core.

I'd rather focus on working with LW9.6 . Core beta would just distract me.

Yup very true. lol i would say that all the LWC question tend to distract me just as much.

A Mejias
03-24-2009, 04:35 PM
I tried to find someplace where this was stated, but the most recent posts from Jay and Chuck around the subject of 'if you need more info...' seem to be these two:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=837851&postcount=204

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=839051&postcount=533

Neither seems to imply more info should be expected prior to month end (which is not the same as saying there won't be any, of course).

The promise is clearly stated here. In a thead that Jay started.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95480

"Stay tuned. We'll have some more LightWave CORE details, screen shots, videos, etc. to show you in the coming weeks."

That was 5 weeks ago...

Wickster
03-24-2009, 04:49 PM
I'm on the fence too. But let me clear things up a bit.

I will be getting into CORE sooner or later. There is only a week left before the savings runs out and the price goes up by $100.

I would like to take advantage of this savings, but the problem is I do have other things that require my financial attention. I guess all I'm really looking for is that little push to get into core now. If more information was released and depending on the information's content, I could reorganize my financial priorities and get CORE on top. This is probably the reason for others too. We could wait and see but we do lose $100 by waiting.

Plus I agree with some of the opinions on the board that the deadline for the discount should be extended since it was said that "there would be more information" from then to March 31st. So far it has been really limited.

A Mejias
03-24-2009, 05:01 PM
It's not just a savings of $100 before March 31, there is also a savings in the future, because if you jump in before March 31 you lock in the subscription price for next year also. Meaning it WILL go up next year. So they really are giving a big incentive.

But I have to say, I really get annoyed when some ridicule those who are asking for "more info." Not only is it perfectly reasonable to ask for more details about a product or service you're about to buy, it's what NewTek promised they would do from the start and 5 weeks after the last promise there is still nothing new. In fact some of those in the H-Core are saying there is no new info there either.

lwanmtr
03-24-2009, 05:07 PM
Sadly, this has been one of NewTek's problem's...they promise more info, etc..but fail to deliver. I didnt realize that it had been 5 weeks...lol.

Sekhar
03-24-2009, 05:16 PM
But I have to say, I really get annoyed when some ridicule those who are asking for "more info." Not only is it perfectly reasonable to ask for more details about a product or service you're about to buy, it's what NewTek promised they would do from the start and 5 weeks after the last promise there is still nothing new. In fact some of those in the H-Core are saying there is no new info there either.

Their viewpoint is that if the info was enough for them to decide, it should be enough for everyone. BTW, does anyone know what it'll cost to get on HC next year (apparently you don't get an answer to that if you call NT, but I'm going to try tomorrow).

A Mejias
03-24-2009, 05:31 PM
It will prabably be around $695 since that will be the new upgrade price once LW Core 1.0 ships. But there may also be a slight discount as incentive to beta test.

Andyjaggy
03-24-2009, 05:40 PM
Here is the problem, at least for me.

Lightwave as we know it is dead. If you want to keep using Lightwave eventually you are going to have to get Core. Sooooooooo. Either way you look at it you are going to have to learn a new application.

So suddenly I have no allegiance, what made me like Lightwave could very well be gone with Core, suddenly its as if I am starting over, when I first got into 3D and looking at which application to learn. I'm not going to just stick with Lightwave like I have for years just because I know it so well, because it's going to be different now.

So suddenly I am starting to look at all these other options. Core has a couple of things going for it. One, it will probably be more familiar then learning a completely different application. Two, it will be cheaper to upgrade to Core since I all ready own Lightwave. However those aren't compelling enough reasons for me to stick with it. As long as I am going to start over from scratch I'm going to pick the application that will work best for me, and with the complete lack of information on Core, I can't say if it's going to be the one.

I'm actually a little afraid for the future of Lightwave. If anyone else is even remotely like me one of the mail reasons they have stuck with Lightwave is because they know it so well and don't want to learn a new application. Now that that reason is gone, how many are in the same situation as me? I know Newtek absolutely had to do what they have done, but it was certainly a bit of a risk and I hope it works out for the best. I really do want to stick with Newtek but I can't wait around for 5 years for a fully functional application.

So in the meantime I'm just sitting on the fence, still using 9.6 and learning 3D Max on the side just waiting to see what happens and where to spend my money.

SBowie
03-24-2009, 06:26 PM
The promise is clearly stated here. In a thead that Jay started.OK. I think that post predates the one I linked by a day, but what's a day?

jay_sloth
03-24-2009, 06:36 PM
Sorry guys...
that we have had no communication at all with our loyal customers! It is mainly because I am to busy eating at my desk to make any progress with core.

You all would be better off to just buy MODO 401... it is an exceptional program that core will never be able to catch up to. Thanks for your time.
I have to get back to eating.

Sekhar
03-24-2009, 07:06 PM
Sorry guys...
that we have had no communication at all with our loyal customers! It is mainly because I am to busy eating at my desk to make any progress with core.

That is NOT funny, and we don't appreciate it. Please stop.

PointC
03-24-2009, 07:30 PM
shhh... be very, very quiet. I'm hunting trolls. There is one hiding a few posts up from here. :tsktsk:

OnlineRender
03-24-2009, 07:56 PM
Sorry guys...
that we have had no communication at all with our loyal customers! It is mainly because I am to busy eating at my desk to make any progress with core.

You all would be better off to just buy MODO 401... it is an exceptional program that core will never be able to catch up to. Thanks for your time.
I have to get back to eating.

Now that was funny !

Come on! everybody has valid point and most of the people here want more , maybe NT should have kept behind closed doors for just little bit longer , rather than teasing hardcore LW fans " danglin a carrot " its done and dusted ,forget it , but admit it ! you will buy it eventually, !

Edit : as soon as that first tut comes from proton , saying "look this is what you can actually do " you will eat it !

Snosrap
03-24-2009, 08:04 PM
Not sure if I can say this or not, but I'll go ahead and ask for forgiveness later if need be. Information has been trickling in on the HardCore forums in the way of questions from members and answers from Jay. And we've had a few sneak peeks which should be heading your way soon. Change is good. I've seen enough so far to know I made the right as well as most cost effective decision and will be passing on the modo 401 upgrade (which looks pretty sweet BTW). You know you'll eventually upgrade, so why not save some money and get in on helping the forming of the new and improved Lightwave.

TimothyB
03-24-2009, 08:24 PM
I'm not a Lightwave user, but had been considering it. Normally I would have jumped on this as I was already looking into it. But since the end of the countdown I've been faced with losing my job and only found out last week I'm safe (for now). But things are so uncertain I want more info before I put money down. Already annoid by the fact the competitive upgrade I'd buy is now $100 more, and unlike a regular upgrade, there will be no more competitive upgrades after March 31st. So I'm really sad no news has come out as this deadline approaches. They even changed the qualifying products again.

Heck, I even got a prize from work exactly $600 after taxes, just enough to get Core, but no way am I spending it without see more info and the way things have been handled. Modo looks more appealing to me right now, just the presentation and actually showing previews on time. How can I start to invest in a company that is handled like this.

GandB
03-24-2009, 08:30 PM
I tried to find someplace where this was stated, but the most recent posts from Jay and Chuck around the subject of 'if you need more info...' seem to be these two:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=837851&postcount=204

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=839051&postcount=533

Neither seems to imply more info should be expected prior to month end (which is not the same as saying there won't be any, of course).

2/19/09: "Stay tuned. We'll have some more LightWave CORE details, screen shots, videos, etc. to show you in the coming weeks."

At the bottom of the initial post, plain as day.

-Keith

geo_n
03-24-2009, 08:43 PM
From Chucks post

"A lot of folks are asking if we will ship v9.6 with CORE. No, what we will ship with CORE will be LightWave 3D with at minimum substantial bug fixes and some enhancements for interoperability with CORE. While we are focusing our new feature efforts on CORE, potentially there may be other enhancements if it looks like the needs of the user base and our CORE effort would recommend it. So it's not going to be just v9.6. As for what CORE will be, there you can just summarize Jay's comments: modeling from the first beta build for the HardCORE group, more features added and more areas activated as we progress through the year and toward the projected Q4 release."

Now I haven't read that post and its even more confusing. I thought lw9.6 with valkyrie will communicate with core. So they are actually shipping a different version with Core. The confusion!!:help:

lwanmtr
03-24-2009, 08:47 PM
Didnt read that post either...but.....

What? That further muddies the specifics on whats coming about....

jin choung
03-25-2009, 12:43 AM
You know you'll eventually upgrade, so why not save some money and get in on helping the forming of the new and improved Lightwave.

this is not a sure thing. at least with me.

and as for saving money, this proposition is defenestrated when you consider that what it buys you may (probably) not be a "complete app", even at the end of the 1.0 cycle in Q4. it will be "1.0" in name only - or at least that's the impression that i get.

and the fact that they are not making that clearer (one way or another) is really not kosher in my book.

so if you WON'T get a complete app, you'd be doing yourself a financial favor by waiting until it's done. 2? 3? who the f knows.

but a "deal" veiled in secrecy, no info and no promised delivery status on a product that is NOT DONE yet.... yeah, sorry. not much of a deal to me.

caveat emptor indeed.

they have 7 days to rectify this untenable state of affairs. what will they do? make things better? make things worse? do nothing? who knows.

7 days and counting... arms crossed and waiting.

jin

alvin_cgi
03-25-2009, 12:57 AM
ha ha ha :agree:


Sorry guys...
that we have had no communication at all with our loyal customers! It is mainly because I am to busy eating at my desk to make any progress with core.

You all would be better off to just buy MODO 401... it is an exceptional program that core will never be able to catch up to. Thanks for your time.
I have to get back to eating.

Frank_Geppert
03-25-2009, 01:50 AM
I agree with a lot of people here. I also prefer the amount of marketing information delivered by Luxology.

And I am also waiting to spend money for LW. I see 2 options for myself:


I buy into Core at the end of march to save money, but I need more information to feel safe.
I do it like Jin or many big studios do: I wait, until the new app offers more than the old one. And if I do not buy the upgrade for Core 1.0 but upgrade to 2 or 3, then I save even more money compared to the HC members, because they upgrade several times.


Now it is Newtek's turn.

A Mejias
03-25-2009, 02:20 AM
Sorry guys...
that we have had no communication at all with our loyal customers! It is mainly because I am to busy eating at my desk to make any progress with core.

You all would be better off to just buy MODO 401... it is an exceptional program that core will never be able to catch up to. Thanks for your time.
I have to get back to eating.


:lol:

Dude, that's funny! Had me going for a second there. Now go model a cone and sit on it. :) If I have to I would use Modo at work, but Brad will never get MY money. ;)

A Mejias
03-25-2009, 02:25 AM
I'm not a Lightwave user, but had been considering it. Normally I would have jumped on this as I was already looking into it. But since the end of the countdown I've been faced with losing my job and only found out last week I'm safe (for now). But things are so uncertain I want more info before I put money down. Already annoid by the fact the competitive upgrade I'd buy is now $100 more, and unlike a regular upgrade, there will be no more competitive upgrades after March 31st. So I'm really sad no news has come out as this deadline approaches. They even changed the qualifying products again.

Heck, I even got a prize from work exactly $600 after taxes, just enough to get Core, but no way am I spending it without see more info and the way things have been handled. Modo looks more appealing to me right now, just the presentation and actually showing previews on time. How can I start to invest in a company that is handled like this.

WOW! Great point!

I think 99% of us have been looking at this from a LightWave ueser perspective, which is bad enough. But how does all this look from perspective users's or outsiders' view. Those that have no experience with NewTek and LightWave must really have a bad impression on how this has all gone down. And that makes me very sad. :(

A Mejias
03-25-2009, 02:31 AM
OK. I think that post predates the one I linked by a day, but what's a day?

Yes, there is some good info there. I for one am happy that Q1 beta will get most of work done on Modeler. (I'm not happy that some of it didn't go into 9.x, but too late for that.) But if that is the totality of the "info, screen shots, and video" they promised 3 days before. Well, that would suck.

6 days left...

A Mejias
03-25-2009, 02:34 AM
From Chucks post

"A lot of folks are asking if we will ship v9.6 with CORE. No, what we will ship with CORE will be LightWave 3D with at minimum substantial bug fixes and some enhancements for interoperability with CORE. While we are focusing our new feature efforts on CORE, potentially there may be other enhancements if it looks like the needs of the user base and our CORE effort would recommend it. So it's not going to be just v9.6. As for what CORE will be, there you can just summarize Jay's comments: modeling from the first beta build for the HardCORE group, more features added and more areas activated as we progress through the year and toward the projected Q4 release."

Now I haven't read that post and its even more confusing. I thought lw9.6 with valkyrie will communicate with core. So they are actually shipping a different version with Core. The confusion!!:help:

In another post they said they were talking about further minor updates to LW 9.6 for bug fixes and better interop with CORE. Nothing major.

But as I pointed out in some other thread. Every time they say something it's less clear what they mean to the point that THEY don't even know what they mean. LOL
:lol:

Frank_Geppert
03-25-2009, 02:44 AM
Some random thought just flashed in my head: Can you imagine the workflow to use Core, Modeler and Layout at the same time to get your work done?

Maybe this is the reason why big studios wait to get Core only if it completely replaces Modeler and Layout.

Another issue might be the price: Is a bundle of LW and Core at the end of the year worth a $1,500? Can it compete with Maya (almost the same price)? We will see.

I am looking forward to more information.

hrgiger
03-25-2009, 03:55 AM
You all would be better off to just buy MODO 401... it is an exceptional program that core will never be able to catch up to

Yes, look how nice Modo 401 will be. And only after 7 short years of development.

archijam
03-25-2009, 03:58 AM
I joined HC, and have no expectations before the first beta.

I do however expect that beta to be on time, when I will crunch and crush it through its paces like never before ;)

This will always be a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Unite the app ... away with Legacy ... better dynamics .. better character anim. etc etc.
.. just don't break the old app, change the way it works, or leave me without a feature video or a beta for 5 minutes.

The timing of the release, with all other apps running reveals, and the economic situation to boot, is less than ideal for NT.

But do people seriously reconsider which app they use every time another app announces a feature? Or compare entire re-writes with 7 year old software? How I do you guys get any sleep? I hope it's nothing more than a symptom of the uncertain times we live in ..

Frank_Geppert
03-25-2009, 04:11 AM
But do people seriously reconsider which app they use every time another app announces a feature? Or compare entire re-writes with 7 year old software? How I do you guys get any sleep? I hope it's nothing more than a symptom of the uncertain times we live in ..

No, it is somewhat in between. Some people like me just use several apps. I have licenses of Lightwave, Bodypaint, Modo, ZBrush, Vue and even some more tools I do not use anymore.
And I am happy with this. I am happy to use Vue when I need outdoor renders. I am happy to have Modo because of the real-time feedback of the renderer and the better FBX support compared to Lightwave. I am happy to have Lightwave as a full application when it comes to animation, physics, particles. And I am happy to be able to add details in Bodypaint and ZBrush.

So it happens from time to time that I compare the progress, the marketing or the GUI of these apps. I see no problems there. I am no fanboy of any of these tools. I just like them for what they can do best.

And because I am no fanboy I really need a value, I need some features of Core that sell me, something that my pool of apps cannot do.

So it is not a symptom of uncertainty and a result of sleepless nights to deal like this. It is just an objective thinking, some consideration before spending the money.

geo_n
03-25-2009, 04:21 AM
Newtek promised faster developing with core! Actually it seems they are still slow! Newtek is playing with customers! as always they are the first announcing stuff! Marketing is still bad! Newtek is still NOT capable producing demo-stuff or presentations!(it seems they need weeks for what others need hours) This is not a great sign for the future I think!

you can ask for a refund since the product hasn't been delivered.

biliousfrog
03-25-2009, 04:21 AM
Here is the problem, at least for me.

Lightwave as we know it is dead. If you want to keep using Lightwave eventually you are going to have to get Core. Sooooooooo. Either way you look at it you are going to have to learn a new application.

So suddenly I have no allegiance, what made me like Lightwave could very well be gone with Core, suddenly its as if I am starting over, when I first got into 3D and looking at which application to learn. I'm not going to just stick with Lightwave like I have for years just because I know it so well, because it's going to be different now.

So suddenly I am starting to look at all these other options. Core has a couple of things going for it. One, it will probably be more familiar then learning a completely different application. Two, it will be cheaper to upgrade to Core since I all ready own Lightwave. However those aren't compelling enough reasons for me to stick with it. As long as I am going to start over from scratch I'm going to pick the application that will work best for me, and with the complete lack of information on Core, I can't say if it's going to be the one.

I'm actually a little afraid for the future of Lightwave. If anyone else is even remotely like me one of the mail reasons they have stuck with Lightwave is because they know it so well and don't want to learn a new application. Now that that reason is gone, how many are in the same situation as me? I know Newtek absolutely had to do what they have done, but it was certainly a bit of a risk and I hope it works out for the best. I really do want to stick with Newtek but I can't wait around for 5 years for a fully functional application.

So in the meantime I'm just sitting on the fence, still using 9.6 and learning 3D Max on the side just waiting to see what happens and where to spend my money.

I couldn't agree more. It's going to be a few years before CORE can compete with any current application in which time all other apps will have improved greatly...it's going to be a long, uphill battle and we've got a choice of joining the new recruits at the bottom of the hill or the battle hardened veterans at the top.


Yes, look how nice Modo 401 will be. And only after 7 short years of development.

...and you're expecting what after 2 short years of development with CORE?...So far it's looking like Modo v.1 and the current modeler and layout for everything that it can't do. As I just said, CORE is starting at the back of the grid with a smaller team than most 3d application developers but is expecting to beat them all...I like Lightwave but I've got to be realistic about this.

OnlineRender
03-25-2009, 04:27 AM
Newtek promised faster developing with core! Actually it seems they are still slow! Newtek is playing with customers! as always they are the first announcing stuff! Marketing is still bad! Newtek is still NOT capable producing demo-stuff or presentations!(it seems they need weeks for what others need hours) This is not a great sign for the future I think!


I wouldnt go as far as not capable ! ok they had some teething problems , and there the first to admit that . I cant understand why people are moaning , its new software , ok i understand your concern with money and lack of info , good things come to those who wait ! be patient , its a good thing that there not sharing , it means the developers are working hard and tweaking as we speak , remember , there will be someone from marketing reading every single post " unlucky ,esp my bad grammer " using you / us as lab mice .

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.

PEACE

cresshead
03-25-2009, 04:38 AM
i'd say hold your judgments until we actually get to march 31st

Frank_Geppert
03-25-2009, 04:41 AM
... actually I am a BIG dissapointed Newtek-Customer! Sorry for my words in the post before

I understand you point of view.
But on the other hand, I am not disappointed in terms of Lightwave. While I have some doubts about the Core development I cannot deny that the last Lightwave edition is a great tool, has a fantastic value for that money and helps you to finish your work.

And I really hope that I will write something similar in the future about Core. What other alternative to Autodesk do we have? What other affordable and powerful software do you want to buy? I still believe that Lightwave is the best choice for small studios, hobby users and other users with low budget but high expectations.
But competition gets tougher (Modo, Blender), so a new and better Lightwave (Core) is the right decision. We only have to wait when it comes to a point where it is compatible. My guess is: This takes a while. And Modo could even have character animation then. So Core really must be innovative in many areas.

geo_n
03-25-2009, 04:43 AM
... actually I am a BIG dissapointed Newtek-Customer! Sorry for my words in the post before

I think if you're not happy with the product, dont buy or get a refund. The other guy did and he had more than 10 license invested. Its business.

OnlineRender
03-25-2009, 04:48 AM
I think if you're not happy with the product, dont buy or get a refund. The other guy did and he had more than 10 license invested. Its business.


Exactly its business !
and the last thing NT want is people back tracking !
there not going to release anything untill they know they have a winner .
as for "bad marketing" there core concept was brilliant , viral marketing and everyone grabbed it with both hands sweating for more, ffs people were using google hack strings to find out more info "cough cough ", now as far as marketing goes thats a result .

"everyone knows thats something comming , but what ! AD must have been laughing at the launch , but i bet you there starting to get slightly worried now , esp with everyone here posting info and ideas "

3DGFXStudios
03-25-2009, 05:33 AM
I just don't get why newtek isn't teasing us every week with new stuff that everybody can see. Not only the HC users. Looks like the new marketing strategy is closely modeled on the old one.
I love the demo page from luxology. Now that's what newtek should be doing. Looks like the newtek guys are just a bunch of nerds giggling behind their computers when they made something new and clever. They need to share more with the world. Not only us. Put the good stuff on the Newtek front page. With smooth shiny previews and stuff. ;) (don't feel offended Newtek guys...I love you!)

biliousfrog
03-25-2009, 05:49 AM
"everyone knows thats something comming , but what ! AD must have been laughing at the launch , but i bet you there starting to get slightly worried now , esp with everyone here posting info and ideas "

Why do you think that Autodesk would be worried? What has NewTek shown that hasn't been in an Autodesk product for many years? I'd imagine that, if anything, they're loving the negative impact that NewTek's marketing has had throughout the 3d community.

SBowie
03-25-2009, 06:10 AM
As I've said elsewhere, I really think many have the wrong notion about HardCORE, and that skews their opinions of the 'campaign'.


Case A - Suppose the intention was to create an initial buzz, leak a little early info, round up an initial cadre comprised largely of self-selected, experienced and ambitious participants for beta testing and feedback, and to test interest levels, delivery mechanisms, and so on.

Case B - The intention was to cynically skim off a bunch of $$ pre-selling software whose version 1.0 is still a year off yet (I can't imagine why any reputable company would want to put themselves in that position).

If Case B is true, then yes - they did a miserable marketing job. But if it was Case A - then the campaign was successful ... maybe not 100% perfect, but overall quite satisfactory.

Some believe Case B, and assume clumsy marketing. I personally think the facts nicely dovetail with Case A. It is clearly not the time for a big marketing campaign. I'd expect much more in that vein about this time next year.

biliousfrog
03-25-2009, 06:35 AM
As I've said elsewhere, I really think many have the wrong notion about HardCORE, and that skews their opinions of the 'campaign'.


Case A - Suppose the intention was to create an initial buzz, leak a little early info, round up an initial cadre comprised largely of self-selected, experienced and ambitious participants for beta testing and feedback, and to test interest levels, delivery mechanisms, and so on.

Case B - The intention was to cynically skim off a bunch of $$ pre-selling software whose version 1.0 is still a year off yet (I can't imagine why any reputable company would want to put themselves in that position).

If Case B is true, then yes - they did a miserable marketing job. But if it was Case A - then the campaign was successful ... maybe not 100% perfect, but overall quite satisfactory.

Some believe Case B, and assume clumsy marketing. I personally think the facts nicely dovetail with Case A. It is clearly not the time for a big marketing campaign. I'd expect much more in that vein about this time next year.

Many companies work to 'Case A', I have been part of beta testing for some of those companies, the difference is that the testers are generally selected and work voluntarily under NDA with some kind of deal on the finished product.

With NewTek's 'Case A' they have primarily enticed hobbyists and 'hardcore' fans who will not be the best judge of whether the software is stable in a production environment. The freelancers and studios that could offer vaulable input are being put off by the lack of information and understanding that they need to pay for their time to beta test a product that is unlikely to be of any benefit over what they currently use for the foreseeable future.

IMI
03-25-2009, 06:40 AM
Yes, look how nice Modo 401 will be. And only after 7 short years of development.

Don't bring poor modo into this. What has modo ever done to you? It's a great little app just minding its own business and making possible all the things LW Modeler can't do when you need it to, and don't want to go on a plugin hunt. ;)

Besides, I wouldn't take...errr...'jay sloth's' comments too seriously in regards to modo. I really don't think the point of that post was to compare modo to LW...

SBowie
03-25-2009, 06:48 AM
With NewTek's 'Case A' they have primarily enticed hobbyists and 'hardcore' fans who will not be the best judge of whether the software is stable in a production environment.Supposing that Case A is closer to the mark, you make an interesting point - however:


I think you underestimate some of the HC crowd - lots of talented and experienced veterans in there.
It's likely too early for Core to be used in any practical way in a large production environment. Large studios are not conducive to much attention to something that isn't 'production ready' and can't serve at least some practical purpose in the existing pipeline. At best, some individuals might play around with Core mostly on their own time - I think certain HC members already account for that niche.
You assume HC comprises the entire Core testing/feedback solution. That is by no means a given. It is quite possible (even likely imho) that NewTek has other resources of that sort either in place or planned for a bit later when it would appropriate. There's no reason to assume HC is the sole channel.

Lewis
03-25-2009, 08:14 AM
I agree with that, but Lightwave in future is death! The future is Core!

AFAIK it's still called Lightwave (not just CORE), instead LightWave 10 it's called LightWave CORE so it's still LW but possible much better LW ;).

Like 3DStudio being renamed to 3DStudio MAX or Photoshop 7 to Photoshop CS.... but with one great exception/difference, we get ALL new and not just name :D. Full rewrite from ground up - REBIRTH ;).

jin choung
03-25-2009, 11:01 AM
With NewTek's 'Case A' they have primarily enticed hobbyists and 'hardcore' fans who will not be the best judge of whether the software is stable in a production environment. The freelancers and studios that could offer vaulable input are being put off by the lack of information and understanding that they need to pay for their time to beta test a product that is unlikely to be of any benefit over what they currently use for the foreseeable future.

right. how many companies would CHARGE to get people to HELP THEM?!

there was no qualifications to enter this "hallowed group of advisers". merely faith, perhaps fervency and....

CASH.

and as i said before, enthusiasm and money don't make the best advisers. (not a reflection on the hc group. i'm sure there are many qualified and informative peeps... just sayin' they weren't screened except for the charge card).

it was a cash grab. not that there's anything wrong with that.

but to try to paint it as something else is just....

anyway, whatever it was trying to be... i don't think it worked out much....

sigh....

jin

Celshader
03-25-2009, 11:50 AM
i don't think it worked out much....

Hundreds pre-ordered CORE at the discount price, so NewTek now has hundreds of artists to sculpt CORE. Looks like HardCORE worked out great.

If you want to betatest something for nothing, switch to Blender.

tomander
03-25-2009, 11:53 AM
Yes, look how nice Modo 401 will be. And only after 7 short years of development.


and look at 9.6 in the same amount of time? I dont see your point!

Greenlaw
03-25-2009, 11:53 AM
All those people who are waiting for more info are the reason "why".
38% are either on the fence or waiting for a full feature list.

This is just my opinion but I don't think NewTek necessarily wants a lot of people who are 'on the fence' to become beta testers. They're looking for people who are genuinely enthusiastic about being being involved with this early stage of development and are okay with working with a program that isn't meant to be ready for production use until the end of the year.

Also, if you're looking for an incentive, right now the $395 discount offer IS the incentive to join; it's for buyers who have faith in NewTek based on their experience with NewTek's current products. If that's not enough to make the decision then the buyer simply waits and pays a little more later when new info becomes available.

Greenlaw

jin choung
03-25-2009, 12:03 PM
If you want to betatest something for nothing, switch to Blender.

lol... well i'm CERTAINLY not going to PAY to beta test!

"we need your help... pay us first though...."

jin

Celshader
03-25-2009, 12:06 PM
Greenlaw, I think you nailed it.


lol... well i'm CERTAINLY not going to PAY to beta test!

"we need your help... pay us first though...."

jin

If you bought 9.x, you PAID for the 9.x Open Beta. Nothing's changed since then.

NewTek does not need your help.

tomander
03-25-2009, 12:10 PM
Greenlaw, I think you nailed it.



If you bought 9.x, you PAID for the 9.x Open Beta. Nothing's changed since then.

NewTek does not need your help.

seems to me they are asking for it. you dont think?

adamredwoods
03-25-2009, 12:19 PM
Greenlaw, I think you nailed it.


+1.

If you're on the fence, wait, like me. As I said before, I think beta-testing can be fun, but its also frustrating and a distraction. For now, I'm trying to focus less on the actual tools and more on creating with the tools at hand.

Lightwave Core is going to take a long, long time. I think it won't start having reliable bones or deformations into 2010 (in my opinion).

Patience. Besides, wouldn't everyone want to see what Blender 2.5 is going to serve up first???

jin choung
03-25-2009, 12:49 PM
NewTek does not need your help.

again, lol... let's not get nasty.

did i EVER intimate that they did?

also, i have NEVER paid to beta test. i simply paid to upgrade. but YOU are advocating specifically and mysteriously for the privelege of paying to beta:


If you want to betatest something for nothing, switch to Blender.

if you meant to say that we must pay to upgrade... ehhhhhrrrrrrrr... yeah. kinda goes without saying....

jin

p.s. beta is generally when something is feature complete and ready to be hammered and polished. seems like core isn't even alpha. you're paying to help develop.

cresshead
03-25-2009, 01:13 PM
This is just my opinion but I don't think NewTek necessarily wants a lot of people who are 'on the fence' to become beta testers. They're looking for people who are genuinely enthusiastic about being being involved with this early stage of development and are okay with working with a program that isn't meant to be ready for production use until the end of the year.

Also, if you're looking for an incentive, right now the $395 discount offer IS the incentive to join; it's for buyers who have faith in NewTek based on their experience with NewTek's current products. If that's not enough to make the decision then the buyer simply waits and pays a little more later when new info becomes available.

Greenlaw

:agree:

*Pete*
03-25-2009, 01:18 PM
Here is the problem, at least for me.

Lightwave as we know it is dead. If you want to keep using Lightwave eventually you are going to have to get Core. Sooooooooo. Either way you look at it you are going to have to learn a new application.


i look at it the same way, i know how you do feel.

for me it was easy since CORE is so cheap and becouse im more of a hobbyist than a pro, sometimes i do get paid jobs for which LW has always been enough for me.

would i look for employment, id be looking at the autodesk products and my dilemma would be bigger, to pick CORE will ease the learning curve since ill be part of its creation, step by step, feature by feature.

but will CORE be the killer app?...we do know that LW can fend for itself better than most as a small studio tool, but can CORE?

we know that Maya, Max, XS...Softimage and others can do wonderfull things too, but will CORE become better than them?

i went for CORE much becouse of the price, becouse of its potential and becouse of a hopefully easier learning curve thanks to its early stage in development at the moment.

i really cant advice you or anyone else...but i can tell you this.
you are not waiting for new information so that you can make an educated decision, CORE is in too early stage for that ;)...you are waiting for more information so that you will have an excuse to your consience (or wife, if married..its the same thing).

i really hope that most of you will find your way into HC or atleast later, when CORE is out as a final version, i hope you will return to take a second look.

just dont get rid of your current LW licenses...it might save you hundreds of dollars if CORE turns out to be what it very well might become.

AbnRanger
03-25-2009, 01:29 PM
Greenlaw, I think you nailed it.



If you bought 9.x, you PAID for the 9.x Open Beta. Nothing's changed since then.

NewTek does not need your help.There's an important distinction to be made here...When someone bought a seat of LW 9.x they bought the release that was currently SHIPPING...NOT A BETA. Newtek had a policy of making their Beta open to a broader section than just select customers. They made it available to all current owners of LW9.

That doesn't constitute in any sense, a purchase of software that is currently in initial Alpha/Beta stages.

The distinction here is significant if you ALREADY own LW9. The $395/$495 (after Mar 31) is explicity for the right to participate in the Alpha/Beta process. If one is new to LW, then what they are purchasing is a copy of LW9, but to ask current LW9 users to UPGRADE TO BETA versions clearly communicates that Newtek DOES INDEED...need Jin's help.

What Newtek could do to rectify that, is offer current LW users something more tangible and substantive...such as an additional seat of LW 9.6 for the upgrade price (to which they could then upgrade to CORE for the same upgrade price...in the short term, the customers gets the benefit of an additional seat, in the long term, they'd save at least $400 on that 2nd seat) or an option for a plugin that greatly enhances LW 9.6 (Messiah, FPrime, KRay, etc).
Cause, really....LW CORE by standard definition, IS software in Alpha stages. I can understand Newtek's dilemna, but they got to come up with something better than this...$400-500 for software that only coming out of the DESIGN stage. The Q4 release will be more like Q2-Q3 2010, and it won't likely have all the capability of 9.6 even at that stage.
Remember the Modo...uh I mean, Alamo :)

*Pete*
03-25-2009, 01:34 PM
lol... well i'm CERTAINLY not going to PAY to beta test!

"we need your help... pay us first though...."

jin

same with me.

i bought CORE 1.0 for a 300 dollar discount and access to the beta testing forums where i can study the features in detail in a way to learn more.

i will also get CORE beta versions to use if i want to, good to have on a sunday evening on a rainy day.

oh, and i get a Tshirt too.

but beta testing?..me?

you must be kidding....

mav3rick
03-25-2009, 01:47 PM
Hundreds pre-ordered CORE at the discount price, so NewTek now has hundreds of artists to sculpt CORE. Looks like HardCORE worked out great.

If you want to betatest something for nothing, switch to Blender.

let me correct you sir... over thousand preorders were placed according to forum tracking of numbers.

Celshader
03-25-2009, 01:51 PM
There's an important distinction to be made here...When someone bought a seat of LW 9.x they bought the release that was currently SHIPPING...NOT A BETA.

When someone pre-ordered LW9.0 in 2006, they gained access to the Open Beta in 2006. They, too, got to test a BETA, before it SHIPPED.

There is no distinction between the Open Beta of 2006 and the HardCORE program of 2009.

OOZZEE
03-25-2009, 02:01 PM
ya but there is still no info 5 weeks later... another screen shot at least...please.

Sekhar
03-25-2009, 02:08 PM
There is no distinction between the Open Beta of 2006 and the HardCORE program of 2009.

Actually, there is. 9.6 beta was... a beta, pretty much feature complete. Heck, it was more ready for production use than 9.5 full release. CORE by contrast is going begin as an alpha really and add features as time goes (hopefully based on member feedback).

don_culbertson
03-25-2009, 02:13 PM
let me correct you sir... over thousand preorders were placed according to forum tracking of numbers.

Ma'am, not sir - Celshader is a woman :)

Don

[edit] corrected spelling of Ma'am - Thanks Andrewstopheles

Celshader
03-25-2009, 02:14 PM
Actually, there is. 9.6 beta was... a beta, pretty much feature complete. Heck, it was more ready for production use than 9.5 full release. CORE by contrast is going begin as an alpha really and add features as time goes (hopefully based on member feedback).

CORE will also include 9.x, so if you think 9.x is "feature complete," CORE will be, too.

hrgiger
03-25-2009, 02:16 PM
and look at 9.6 in the same amount of time? I dont see your point!

My point was that people are complaing about the possibility that CORE may not be a full application by Q4 and yet poor little Modo as IMI called it is still not a complete application after 7 years. Not an insult, just the facts. The guys who developed the old Lightwave in the first place went, formed their own company and wrote their own little unified application we now know as Modo. I don't think it will take Newtek that long to bring CORE full circle. In fact, I'm confident it won't.
And what about 9.6? It's got some nice new character tools and I think one of the better and faster included renderers out there.
And just for IMI...Not picking on Modo at all. I've actually come to admire the application even though I currently don't use it. I still can't justify spending $900 for something without any real animation tools other then simple keyframing. I've been kind of thinking lately though that a CORE/Modo pipeline would make me pretty happy at least in the short term. But unless Lux wants to cut me a deal, it won't happen.

Andrewstopheles
03-25-2009, 02:24 PM
Isn't it spelled "ma'am" ?

SBowie
03-25-2009, 02:25 PM
If one is new to LW, then what they are purchasing is a copy of LW9, but to ask current LW9 users to UPGRADE TO BETA versions clearly communicates that Newtek DOES INDEED...need Jin's help.Where is anyone asking people to do that? NewTek has offered the 'opportunity' to get in on the ground floor, but they're hardly pushing or begging anyone to get involved early.

(A lot of the angst in related threads seems to be because they haven't been marketing more aggressively. Don't we agree that this point in Core development is not the correct time for that? I haven't seen any arm twisting.)

Those who are comfortable with an investment in HC can do as they please, and so can everyone else. No-one is getting 'the shaft'. Personally, I doubt pleas for further incentives (much less 'you should pay me to beta', which I've seen in another thread) are very likely to be taken seriously.

don_culbertson
03-25-2009, 02:26 PM
Isn't it spelled "ma'am" ?

Oops - I didn't think that looked right - should have checked dictionary :D

Thanks
Don

Chuck
03-25-2009, 02:33 PM
There's an important distinction to be made here...When someone bought a seat of LW 9.x they bought the release that was currently SHIPPING...NOT A BETA. Newtek had a policy of making their Beta open to a broader section than just select customers. They made it available to all current owners of LW9.

That doesn't constitute in any sense, a purchase of software that is currently in initial Alpha/Beta stages.

The distinction here is significant if you ALREADY own LW9. The $395/$495 (after Mar 31) is explicity for the right to participate in the Alpha/Beta process. If one is new to LW, then what they are purchasing is a copy of LW9, but to ask current LW9 users to UPGRADE TO BETA versions clearly communicates that Newtek DOES INDEED...need Jin's help.

What Newtek could do to rectify that, is offer current LW users something more tangible and substantive...such as an additional seat of LW 9.6 for the upgrade price (at least a one year license of that additional seat...to which they could then upgrade to CORE) or an option for a plugin that greatly enhances LW 9.6 (Messiah, FPrime, KRay, etc)

When we began selling v8 upgrades and full copies which were entitled to v9 at no additional cost, people who already had v8 asked us to provide them an advance purchase option, and we did. Thousands of v8 owners made use of that option and subsequently participated in the v9.0 Open Beta based on that advance purchase of the forthcoming upgrade.

This new membership program is just an additional way to purchase the next upgrade. Much of the incentive for the v9 advance purchase option was in the add-ons that came with the purchase; the new membership program provides other types of incentive instead.

If the amount of information currently available, the price break for charter membership, and the opportunity for participation in the HardCORE group beginning at this juncture does not add up to enough incentive for some, that's understandable and in fact expected. That's why this is an option, and the traditional options are still available, such as just waiting until it ships and seeing if the upgrade suits your needs at that time. And that's why the membership program itself offers a choice - buy now at charter price, or wait for new information releases as they come along, and if and when there is finally enough to make you comfortable, buy at the post-March-31 regular price sometime later in the year.

Folks on either side of the "decision fence" need to simply respect one another's point of view. Each of you stating your point of view and the reasoning you've made on the matter is fine; the efforts on both sides to actually invalidate the other point of view and the attendant name-calling that degenerates into are counter-productive and just need to stop.

At the moment, folks in HardCORE know quite a bit more about CORE than folks who don't. Getting info first is something they get for being part of HardCORE and Jay has provided quite a lot of As to their Qs there. At the time our marketing department feels it is appropriate they will be providing much of this additional information to the public as well.

*Pete*
03-25-2009, 02:44 PM
Actually, there is. 9.6 beta was... a beta, pretty much feature complete. Heck, it was more ready for production use than 9.5 full release. CORE by contrast is going begin as an alpha really and add features as time goes (hopefully based on member feedback).

during 9.X we had.

pre 9.0 beta
pre 9.2 beta
pre 9.3 beta
pre 9.5 beta
pre 9.6 beta

all added new features, all killed bugs, all available for any LW 9 owner who wanted to participate.

when you call it Alpha instead of Beta, you are propably right by the meaning of the word, but NT has obviously always considered non-feature complete versions as Beta versions.

it makes no sence to speak about the general meaning of the word, when we do know what NT means with it.

CORE will be less production ready on day 1 than 9.6 is today...that is something you will have to expect to stay true untill atleast Q4.
where 9.X series are a continuation of the 8.X series, CORE is fresh, new and without the strenghts and weaknesses of the old LW, for good and bad i quess.

AbnRanger
03-25-2009, 03:06 PM
When someone pre-ordered LW9.0 in 2006, they gained access to the Open Beta in 2006. They, too, got to test a BETA, before it SHIPPED.

There is no distinction between the Open Beta of 2006 and the HardCORE program of 2009.Yes there is, Jen. When you purchased a seat of LW 8.5 you got a seat of THE CURRENT SHIPPING VERSION. Just as it would be for a newcomer to LW today. They would get LW 9.6 Plus a membership to CORE for a year (a year of Beta testing in all actuality). That's a nice incentive for a newcomer to LW, but NOT so much for a current LW customer/user.
I first joined in during that promotion back at Siggraph 05, when the enticement for upgrades was a copy of Vue Infinite. What's the coorelating incentive here? Upgrade to....uh...our...uhhhh, upgrade to our Alpha/Beta product...and we'll throw in a T-Shirt and and the information that we told the whole LW community we would give them. We decided we'll just give it to you instead, if you join.

I think CORE is definitely an exciting prospect, but something kinda stinks about Newtek's spinning Alpha/ Beta testing as a paid "Upgrade."
It is what it is...initial stages of software development (Alpha)...that's why CORE's first year of builds won't even resemble a full-featured product, as LW 9 is. Again...a newcomer to LW might find plenty incentive to join, but I personally think many LW HC members are being "played" here. In their excitement for something new, they don't quite realize what they are essentially doing...paying for a year of Alpha testing.

SBowie
03-25-2009, 03:14 PM
In their excitement for something new, they don't quite realize what they are essentially doing...paying for a year of Alpha testing.Don, doesn't that rationale essentially require assigning a value of zero to Core Q4 product ownership? I'm not following.

the3dwiz
03-25-2009, 03:16 PM
Only as a side note to all the HC members who say, the big part of the LW comunity has allready joined. Just read the statement of jay!!!

(When we began selling v8 upgrades and full copies which were entitled to v9 at no additional cost, people who already had v8 asked us to provide them an advance purchase option, and we did. Thousands of v8 owners made use of that option and subsequently participated in the v9.0 Open Beta based on that advance purchase of the forthcoming upgrade.)

Then think again!

AbnRanger
03-25-2009, 03:20 PM
Where is anyone asking people to do that? NewTek has offered the 'opportunity' to get in on the ground floor, but they're hardly pushing or begging anyone to get involved early.

(A lot of the angst in related threads seems to be because they haven't been marketing more aggressively. Don't we agree that this point in Core development is not the correct time for that? I haven't seen any arm twisting.)

Those who are comfortable with an investment in HC can do as they please, and so can everyone else. No-one is getting 'the shaft'. Personally, I doubt pleas for further incentives (much less 'you should pay me to beta', which I've seen in another thread) are very likely to be taken seriously.
You say you're getting in on the ground floor...of what exactly. Opening up Alpha/Beta TESTING for sale is not getting in on the ground floor...more like "Pay us to see what's cooking in the basement."

Obviously, Newtek's spin job has worked on some folks...largely because many are ready for something truly new. Nevertheless, it is what it is...an Alpha product be repackaged as something other than what it, in fact, is.

"Pay us to play with the Alpha (that normally would never see it's way into public consumption), and a year from now, you will have saved $100."

*Pete*
03-25-2009, 03:21 PM
they don't quite realize what they are essentially doing...paying for a year of Alpha testing.

now, you are a little too hard on us AbnRanger.

look at it this way.

person A goes HC and pays 395.
he gets beta versions of CORE and eventually a full version of CORE.

person B waits untill CORE is released and pays 695.
he gets full version of CORE.


Beta testing, actual bug hunting and reporting is voluntary...you do it for your own good as if you find a problem you simply ask NT to solve it, or you dont and let someone else find and report the bugs.

so, if we assume that both person A and person B are the non-bug-hunting type of persons.

so, then person A will have advantages in learning an application as it is being build from ground up, he will have the application 300 dollar cheaper.

and the person B will have the advantage of knowing what he will be paying for, perhaps person B can even download a CORE demo for trial..but not taking the risks that person A did, he will pay 300 dollar more for it.

there is always a risk that CORE will be an utter and complete disaster and failure, a bugridden monster of an application and person B will have saved a full 695 dollar by not buying into it.
and person A just lost 395 on a failed adventure.


only becouse you do not see the benefits of joining CORE as i see them, it doesnt mean that you have the right to claim that "we" do not know what we are doing with our decision.


the truth is, there are no wrong decisions on whether or not to join CORE, well...
you either buy a super application 300 cheaper or not, you you pay 395 for a failure or save 695 if you didnt buy it.

anyway, personally..im in for a learning trip.

the3dwiz
03-25-2009, 03:21 PM
2 mav3rick

And how long do they code for this 395.000$ ? Have u tough about this? How long since the last big $ infusion?
Just wondering?
There are rough times right now.

Celshader
03-25-2009, 03:24 PM
I first joined in during that promotion back at Siggraph 05, when the enticement for upgrades was a copy of Vue Infinite. What's the coorelating incentive here?

The incentive here is a $300 dollar discount from the shipping price. My co-workers and I ordered CORE early because of this incentive.

I still don't see the difference between the pre-release Open Beta for 9.0 and the pre-release Open Beta for CORE.

Sekhar
03-25-2009, 03:27 PM
If the amount of information currently available, the price break for charter membership, and the opportunity for participation in the HardCORE group beginning at this juncture does not add up to enough incentive for some, that's understandable and in fact expected. That's why this is an option, and the traditional options are still available, such as just waiting until it ships and seeing if the upgrade suits your needs at that time. And that's why the membership program itself offers a choice - buy now at charter price, or wait for new information releases as they come along, and if and when there is finally enough to make you comfortable, buy at the post-March-31 regular price sometime later in the year.

Do we take it then Chuck, that we won't be getting any more info prior to 3/31? Based on your post (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=851995#post851995) earlier, it looked like we would. I know I check the forums every few hours almost just to see there's new info.

*Pete*
03-25-2009, 03:27 PM
"Pay us to play with the Alpha (that normally would never see it's way into public consumption), and a year from now, you will have saved $100."

$300.

395 before march 31 (save 300)
495 after april 1 (save 200)
695 after CORE release. (full price)

AbnRanger
03-25-2009, 03:28 PM
Don, doesn't that rationale essentially require assigning a value of zero to Core Q4 product ownership? I'm not following.LW 9 was slated for Q4 2005...it was June 06 before it shipped. But, putting that aside, the HC membership at this point in time is paying in advance for a product that won't be released for a yr...but to tide you over...we'll let you play with the WIP's

*Pete*
03-25-2009, 03:30 PM
I still don't see the difference between the pre-release Open Beta for 9.0 and the pre-release Open Beta for CORE.

the only difference is that CORE is not built on an existing OLD and problematic foundation that brought with it lots of limitations.

but then again, you can look at it in a positive as well as in a negative way.

AbnRanger
03-25-2009, 03:30 PM
The incentive here is a $300 dollar discount from the shipping price. My co-workers and I ordered CORE early because of this incentive.

I still don't see the difference between the pre-release Open Beta for 9.0 and the pre-release Open Beta for CORE.The difference, as I mentioned...was Vue 5 Infinite. I can see where it's sufficient incentive for some...but just the mere notion of paying to be an Alpha tester has a bit of a stink to it, IMHO. Some may see it as paying today what you get tomorrow, but in a practical sense it's still the same.

SBowie
03-25-2009, 03:31 PM
"Pay us to play with the Alpha (that normally would never see it's way into public consumption), and a year from now, you will have saved $100."I don't see how you feel so assured assigning judgments on Core's state, not having even seen the Q1 build - much less what will be delivered in Q4.

I appreciate the small discount, but that was hardly a deciding factor for me at least. $400 now or $500 later was not really a consideration. As someone else said, I too mainly wanted to demonstrate support for the project in a meaningful way, as well as be able to follow along during development with a view to learning Core progressively. I'm quite confident I'll get good value for the investment, and haven't seen anything yet to make me feel otherwise, much less to imply some of the (cynical in my view) things I've read.

I really don't mean to quibble, or denigrate your opinions - just trying to understand them.

Chuck
03-25-2009, 03:31 PM
anyway, whatever it was trying to be... i don't think it worked out much....

It's worked out great. The HardCORE membership growth is more than meeting our expectations.

Arguments by various folks in some other posts scattered about the various CORE-related threads about who-outnumbers-who in the joined vs not-joined groups are irrelevant to whether this program is a success. No one would expect all v9 users to wish to participate at this early a point, and we certainly didn't either. Initial response and subsequent growth is what we expected, however, and the program is successful to date, both in terms of the v9 owners joining HardCORE, and in a more-than-expected for this early in the game healthy uptick in sales of new full copies, new upgrades to owners of v8 and earlier versions, and new companion upgrades.

Marketing will be posting more info at the appropriate time and we're working on getting the Q1 build ready for the HardCORE users. As with anything, we'll have to see how things work out over the longer term, but so far things have been quite successful, and things are coming together to add more public info and to get the application into action in HardCORE.

the3dwiz
03-25-2009, 03:42 PM
For me it does not work out!!!! Im no feeling taken seriously as a paying customer! And i think many thousend feeling the same! This may have direct impact on the future of LW Core. For me its realy time to not loosing any more time with tis sensles core stuff. Maby back with Core1 or 2 if its worth it.

Celshader
03-25-2009, 03:47 PM
The difference, as I mentioned...was Vue 5 Infinite.

OK. For you, $300 in savings does not compare to a license of Vue 5.

However, I perceive an attitude from some 9.x owners that they should get beta builds of CORE for free, without pre-ordering a CORE license.

I'm trying to correct that attitude by pointing out that HardCORE operates under the exact same terms as the 9.0 Open Beta before 9.0 shipped. Only artists who pre-ordered a license get to participate.

Sekhar
03-25-2009, 03:51 PM
For me it does not work out!!!! Im no feeling taken seriously as a paying customer! And i think many thousend feeling the same! This may have direct impact on the future of LW Core. For me its realy time to not loosing any more time with tis sensles core stuff. Maby back with Core1 or 2 if its worth it.

I hear you. But I don't think it's intentional, more a screw-up of sorts. NT has been terrific in their support of its users - all you need to do is look at what they did in the 9.x cycles for free. I got in at 8 and got so much value since then with all the free updates, I've in fact begun to feel a bit guilty. 9.6 is a great release IMO, and I think CORE will be too.

*Pete*
03-25-2009, 03:54 PM
Im no feeling taken seriously as a paying customer!

but....you are NOT a paying customer.

I am...and i do feel taken seriously.

over at HC forums you, as a paying customer will be able to participate in a Q&A with NT staff, mainly Jay Roth.
he is there almost daily, even weekends.


what exactly would you need to feel that you are taken seriously...you have seen information about CORE in screenshots, on the CORE page and on these forums...not enough, ok.
but what exactly is it that you are asking for?...all of those things NT has shown you is more to be considered as an effort to get you to become a paying customer than to serve a paying customer.

SBowie
03-25-2009, 03:54 PM
For me it does not work out!!!! Im no feeling taken seriously as a paying customer!Can I ask - what precisely have you paid for that you have not received?


Maby back with Core1 or 2 if its worth it.That could be a very good personal decision for you, I don't think anyone will criticize it.

AbnRanger
03-25-2009, 03:56 PM
OK. For you, $300 in savings does not compare to a license of Vue 5.

However, I perceive an attitude from some 9.x owners that they should get beta builds of CORE for free, without pre-ordering a CORE license.

I'm trying to correct that attitude by pointing out that HardCORE operates under the exact same terms as the 9.0 Open Beta before 9.0 shipped. Only artists who pre-ordered a license get to participate.Jen, the very best thing, in that case, would be for Newtek to keep the larger LW informed about CORE, so as to make as many of the yet undecided feel the same way you do. However, leaving folks in the dark doesn't do that. Like any good salesman, you have to have something to whet a prospective customer's appetite. The CORE Reveal was one step in that direction. Withholding further information except to those who paid to look behind the veil, was 2 steps back, IMHO.

As it relates to Vue Infinite...well it was an immediate incentive. As of today, you haven't saved a dime. It will take over a year for those savings to actually come to fruition. That's the difference, once again. The LW 9 pre-release offered the same beta privileges (not just a year...4-5 yrs in fact), if you will. Vue Infinite itself was financially worth more than the upgrade price, so you really got something to show for it the day you ordered. Not so in this case.

marty d
03-25-2009, 03:59 PM
The thing that bothers me is the one year Core subscription. You say one year from the first build but is that the first alpha build or the first final build? If alpha there will be another $395 fee next Apr 1 for early buyers and late buyers will aparently have another year after they show up for the final v1 realease date.

*Pete*
03-25-2009, 04:00 PM
I hear you. But I don't think it's intentional, more a screw-up of sorts. NT has been terrific in their support of its users - all you need to do is look at what they did in the 9.x cycles for free. I got in at 8 and got so much value since then with all the free updates, I've in fact begun to feel a bit guilty. 9.6 is a great release IMO, and I think CORE will be too.


yes, NT has a strong reputation just for that.

they are really good with their customers...the lack of CORE info is more of a marketing failure than failed customer treatment.

issues with 9.6, contact customer service.
issues about CORE?..you have just as much right to complain over it as you have to complain about tricaster...really.

and we do not exactly scream for lack of information for Tricaster here on the LW forums, do we? ;)

*Pete*
03-25-2009, 04:04 PM
The thing that bothers me is the one year Core subscription. You say one year from the first build but is that the first alpha build or the first final build? If alpha there will be another $395 fee next Apr 1 for early buyers and late buyers will aparently have another year after they show up for the final v1 realease date.

one year HC membership includes atleast 1 full version of CORE.

if CORE 1.0 will be delayed, HC membership will be extended.

biliousfrog
03-25-2009, 04:11 PM
OK. For you, $300 in savings does not compare to a license of Vue 5.

However, I perceive an attitude from some 9.x owners that they should get beta builds of CORE for free, without pre-ordering a CORE license.

I'm trying to correct that attitude by pointing out that HardCORE operates under the exact same terms as the 9.0 Open Beta before 9.0 shipped. Only artists who pre-ordered a license get to participate.

The way I'm beginning to see it is that non-lightwave users can buy LW 9.6 + CORE for $595, current LW 9.6 users can buy CORE for $395.

...So CORE would appear to be free to non-Lightwave users and $395 for current Lightwave users.

Chuck
03-25-2009, 04:11 PM
The thing that bothers me is the one year Core subscription. You say one year from the first build but is that the first alpha build or the first final build? If alpha there will be another $395 fee next Apr 1 for early buyers and late buyers will aparently have another year after they show up for the final v1 realease date.

Charter membership will run for one year from the first beta (or alpha for those who prefer that designation) build provided for the HardCORE group, and that build is expected to post before the end of this month. March 31, 2009 will be the last day for charter membership pricing.

Zithen
03-25-2009, 04:27 PM
Charter membership will run for one year from the first beta (or alpha for those who prefer that designation) build provided for the HardCORE group, and that build is expected to post before the end of this month. March 31, 2009 will be the last day for charter membership pricing.
So for Charter membership, you pay $395 now and then pay another $395 to continue the membership past March 31 2010, a total of $790. However, if you wait to upgrade for Core for its official release in Q4 and pay $695, your membership would last until Q4 of 2011.

It seems to me you are paying more by buying now and having to test the beta release for 2009-2010, rather than waiting for the official release and getting the membership 2010-2011. Or am I missing something...?

Chuck
03-25-2009, 04:44 PM
For me it does not work out!!!! Im no feeling taken seriously as a paying customer! And i think many thousend feeling the same! This may have direct impact on the future of LW Core. For me its realy time to not loosing any more time with tis sensles core stuff. Maby back with Core1 or 2 if its worth it.

If we were not taking all our customers for v9 and earlier seriously, we wouldn't have made HardCORE membership just another option, while keeping our traditional options for upgrading, including the freedom to skip a version and when you do buy back in, not have to pay a higher price for the upgrade version you buy based on which version you are upgrading from. Other 3D applications have used scaled pricing for upgrades or they require annual subscription fees in order to get support and the right to further upgrades, and/or require that you purchase every upgrade offered or lose the right to upgrade your package, forcing you to pay full price when a new version comes along that does offer features that you need or want. We don't do any of those things.

We do not expect HardCORE at this stage to be for everyone, and we respect your decision if you want to wait, even all the way to when the product ships in Q4, in order to decide if CORE's first edition is for you. If it is not what you need then, then yes, we will appreciate if you take a look as each future generation comes out, and when it does suit your needs you'll be able to come back, since where other 3D vendors try to lock you in, we keep the doors open.

kfinla
03-25-2009, 04:45 PM
I think your missing something. $395 today, would get you Core 1.0 (the final release) and all the beta builds up to its release. Paying $695 a year from now would also get you the Core 1.0 final release, no more. Its my understanding that each HC renewal guarantees you 1 major release, so if you renew March 31, 2010, you will get Core 2.0 final, and all the beta builds before that. So you would have paid 395 + 395 = 790 and have a core 2.0 license or you could pay 695$ and just have core 1.0 but you'd know what you were buying to the last nuts and bolts.

Theoretically you could hold onto your money for awhile and wait for some "buy Core 1.0 get Core 2.0 when it ships deal, but we don't know what the price to go from LW 9 to Core 2.0 will be or if such an option would happen. Plus software upgrades have always worked this way.. its always been more expensive over time to upgrade multiple times than to buy in as a brand new customer after a certain point.

Chuck
03-25-2009, 04:46 PM
So for Charter membership, you pay $395 now and then pay another $395 to continue the membership past March 31 2010, a total of $790. However, if you wait to upgrade for Core for its official release in Q4 and pay $695, your membership would last until Q4 of 2011.

It seems to me you are paying more by buying now and having to test the beta release for 2009-2010, rather than waiting for the official release and getting the membership 2010-2011. Or am I missing something...?

How about the fact that the fellow who paid $695 in Q4 of 2009 gets a membership with it that expires in Q4 of 2010, not 2011? :)

Chuck
03-25-2009, 04:49 PM
Do we take it then Chuck, that we won't be getting any more info prior to 3/31? Based on your post (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=851995#post851995) earlier, it looked like we would. I know I check the forums every few hours almost just to see there's new info.

Marketing is working on some information and videos now that they hope to make available before March 31, 2009.

marty d
03-25-2009, 04:51 PM
Charter membership will run for one year from the first beta (or alpha for those who prefer that designation) build provided for the HardCORE group, and that build is expected to post before the end of this month. March 31, 2009 will be the last day for charter membership pricing.
Thank you. That helps quite a bit with the decision process.

ramccombe
03-25-2009, 05:05 PM
I love how these discussions always seem to drift or be pushed in an irrelevant direction. For me and many others it is as simple as this, after the "reveal" of Core we were all told much more info was on the way in the weeks to come and that has not happen. This was what 4, 5, 6 weeks ago and since then 2 screen shots BFD. As far as I'm concerned that's the problem, not how many have or have not joined. Newtek clearly based on Chucks post are quite happy with the game so far, well good for them. Newtek in my eyes has dropped the ball BIG TIME. Address the real issue here Newtek. WHERE IS THE INFO YOU PROMISED!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow: thumbsdow

SBowie
03-25-2009, 05:11 PM
I love how these discussions always seem to drift or be pushed in an irrelevant direction. For me and many others it is as simple as this, after the "reveal" of Core we were all told much more info was on the way in the weeks to come and that has not happen.Well actually, what may be irrelevant to you is of interest to others. Many have raised other questions and points pro and con.

Your point about the time it has taken is not entirely without merit, but it is sounding like more info is imminent. Based on prior history, though, I wonder if that won't simply raise even more questions from some.

kfinla
03-25-2009, 05:30 PM
For me the big questions that I would be asking if I was a HC member is what Q4 Core 1.0 won't do, which sadly seems like pretty basic purchase info you would have had to pay for. At least thanks to Chucks info I know there is a chance there will be some more info before the 31st, the "when marketing feels its appropriate" sounded like after March 31 to me. Though I'm guessing it will be down to the wire.

One thing I would love to know is how the HC renewal pricing works? There has been some statements about "locking in" pricing at $395 by joining HC before the 31st. That it will then be $395 again to renew HC in a year and get Core 2.0. Is this a special price? If people wait and pay 495, or 695 for core 1.0 will they be paying a different price to upgrade to core 2.0? Sorry if I'm over complicating things, but it would certainly effect the "when" to buy in for me. Otherwise, paying 495 and getting an additional 7 months of free info and then paying 395 for core 2 is tempting.

Zithen
03-25-2009, 05:33 PM
How about the fact that the fellow who paid $695 in Q4 of 2009 gets a membership with it that expires in Q4 of 2010, not 2011? :)
Ha...sorry. What I'm trying to say is, if you pay now, you pay $790 (2 x $395) for two years of membership--one year of beta testing, one year of using the final product and HardCore membership, which lasts until March of 2010.

Other option is waiting for final release around Q4/Dec of 09 and pay $695, where the Hardcore membership will last until q4/ Dec 2010, which will be about 8-10 months more of using the more stable and final product.

Aren't you paying less money and have more time to get updates and use the stable and feature rich version by waiting until Q4? If you buy now, you must use the beta/incomplete version for about 8 months, which then requires you to pay another year to continue the membership and get further updates for the final.

I'm really confused about the benifit of getting into and using the HardCore membership. For instance, if I buy Core in Q4 and get the regular updates while being a member, what is the incentive to buy the final upgrade of Core 2 once the membership expires, since you're constantly getting updates? If there were to be few updates while in the membership, then you would want Core 2. But then there would be little incentive to have membership.

The membership benifits after the final release aren't clear for me and I'd like to understand them better.

Andrewstopheles
03-25-2009, 05:40 PM
I am pretty sure the pricing gets locked in for future upgrades - this being the added incentive to buy in now.

hrgiger
03-25-2009, 05:44 PM
The membership benifits after the final release aren't clear for me and I'd like to understand them better.

I can see you're not clear on how this is working which is understandable.

If wait until Q4 to buy the release for $695, you're not buying a hardcore membership. You're buying finished software. That's what you get. At that point, the only hardcore membership you will be able to buy is for the next release of the software, version 2.0 or whatever they're going to call it, perhaps in Q4 of 2010.

The hardcore membership is a pre-buy. There's no other way to do it. You're buying in before you know exactly what you are getting. But as a benefit, you are getting a discount on the final version.

As far as buying in now for $395. You get the hardcore membership plus the final release. Next year, you are able to buy another hardcore membership for $395, also for another year of hardcore with a final release. You're not locked into buying another membership if you don't want one at that point. Clearly the better deal (if you want CORE) is to buy in now and then decide next year if you are going to want the next version.

This is all as I understand it. Chuck can correct anything thats erroneous in there. The only question it raises is, is there a cutoff for buying a hardcore membership for the first shipping version?

KillMe
03-25-2009, 05:52 PM
basically chater hardcore members get the second year subscription at teh same discounted rate - not sure if it continues past the second year or not though

hrgiger
03-25-2009, 05:55 PM
Hey everyone, the CORE page was just updated. A few vids and a few screenshots.

KillMe
03-25-2009, 05:55 PM
core page updated with new infp and videos!

Chuck
03-25-2009, 05:55 PM
The LightWave CORE Page (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/index.php) has been updated with a couple new screenshots and two videos! Jay Roth takes a look at GPU subdivision surface support and selection, and Jarrod Davis takes a look at using the modifier stack in modeling operations.

Zithen
03-25-2009, 05:56 PM
If wait until Q4 to buy the release for $695, you're not buying a hardcore membership. You're buying finished software. That's what you get. At that point, the only hardcore membership you will be able to buy is for the next release of the software, version 2.0 or whatever they're going to call it, perhaps in Q4 of 2010.

Oh...so if you wait for Core 1.0 and pay $695, you won't get the membership? You just get Core 1.0. You may get updates but you won't get regular beta builds.

So the whole idea about the membership is to buy early and participate in development? Sort of like getting a discount for beta testing, is that correct?
Hm.

hrgiger
03-25-2009, 05:56 PM
Oh...so if you wait for Core 1.0 and pay $695, you won't get the membership? You just get Core 1.0. You may get updates but you won't get regular beta builds.

So the whole idea about the membership is to buy early and participate in development? Sort of like getting a discount for beta testing, is that correct?
Hm.

Yes, I suppose that's one way to look at it.

Wickster
03-25-2009, 05:59 PM
Well the way I understood it is:

LightWave CORE 1.0 Announced and on sale Q4 2009.
It is now available for Pre-order.
Early bird pre-order special for LW 9.X owners (Before 03/31/2009) - $395
Regular pre-order price for LW owners - $495
Regular purchase price for LW owners (when released) - $695
Regular purchase price nor non LW owners (when released) - $1495 - Pay no attention to this last line, I don't know where I got this price/info. :o


I maybe missing something or possibly got something wrong but that's how I see it.

EDIT:
See note.

adamredwoods
03-25-2009, 06:24 PM
Nice videos.

kfinla
03-25-2009, 06:25 PM
Just a heads up.. I watched both Videos.. Jarrod's Modifier stack video seems to have out of sync audio as well as have about 4 mins of black video tagged on at the end.about 5:30 to 9:50.

IMI
03-25-2009, 06:27 PM
While I'm waiting for the videos to download...after seeing the screenshots of CORE, I see that's XP there.
I'm sure there will be allot of the HardCORE crowd using Vista and probably even Windows 7, but please tell me CORE 1.0 isn't going to exclude Vista, at least, from the list of supported OS's.

hrgiger
03-25-2009, 06:27 PM
Just a heads up.. I watched both Videos.. Jarods Modifier stack video seems to have out of sync audio as well as have about 4 mins of black video tagged on at the end.

I can see it now.... 20 pages of discussion, 19 of it criticizing the blank space at the end of the video.... 1 page of actual content discussion.:D

ramccombe
03-25-2009, 06:28 PM
Well actually, what may be irrelevant to you is of interest to others. Many have raised other questions and points pro and con.

Your point about the time it has taken is not entirely without merit, but it is sounding like more info is imminent. Based on prior history, though, I wonder if that won't simply raise even more questions from some.

My reference to irrelevance was directed to how many have signed up and have not. I could have been a little more clear. I agree there have been many discussions that were "relevant". It just seems many of these threads end up at that point or at the point where fanboys are saying if you don't like it don't join. My point is simply that threads start with the premise of the question I asked, (where is the info Newtek said was coming) and end up in the places I described. I give you the start of this thread and I quote "1 Week left and no new info on Core". Now where has this thread wandered?

jayroth
03-25-2009, 06:30 PM
While I'm waiting for the videos to download...after seeing the screenshots of CORE, I see that's XP there.
I'm sure there will be allot of the HardCORE crowd using Vista and probably even Windows 7, but please tell me CORE 1.0 isn't going to exclude Vista, at least, from the list of supported OS's.

CORE will work fine in all modern OS's.

kfinla
03-25-2009, 06:33 PM
I can see it now.... 20 pages of discussion, 19 of it criticizing the blank space at the end of the video.... 1 page of actual content discussion.:D

I brought it up quickly so they can fix it before many people have their hands on it and can avoid that from happening.

don_culbertson
03-25-2009, 06:33 PM
While I'm waiting for the videos to download...after seeing the screenshots of CORE, I see that's XP there.
I'm sure there will be allot of the HardCORE crowd using Vista and probably even Windows 7, but please tell me CORE 1.0 isn't going to exclude Vista, at least, from the list of supported OS's.

From the Lightwave Core page:

LightWave CORE™ is multi-platform. LightWave CORE™ operates under all modern Windows flavors, from XP to 7, from 32 to 64. LightWave CORE™ is also a Macintosh COCOA application, and last, but certainly not least, Linux.

Don

[edit] Yeah Linux !!!

hrgiger
03-25-2009, 06:35 PM
I brought it up quickly so they can fix it before many people have their hands on it and can avoid that from happening.

Yeah, I gotcha. I said the same in the CORE forums. I figure a lot of people probably gave up for the night and probably won't check back til tomorrow so I'm hoping they'll fix at least the dead space at the end of the modifier video.

bobakabob
03-25-2009, 06:38 PM
it was a cash grab. not that there's anything wrong with that.

but to try to paint it as something else is just....

anyway, whatever it was trying to be... i don't think it worked out much....

sigh....

jin

You have a simple choice. Either you buy into Core, wait or don't bother at all. Oh and continue moaning!

jayroth
03-25-2009, 06:40 PM
Yeah, I gotcha. I said the same in the CORE forums. I figure a lot of people probably gave up for the night and probably won't check back til tomorrow so I'm hoping they'll fix at least the dead space at the end of the modifier video.

We will have a fix up sometime tomorrow. In the meantime, the information is good, just some weird encoding issue, apparently. It does not occur on the internal copy...

IMI
03-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Videos look good. I love that pre-selection idea.
And the history stack...yes, yes, yes, great to see it in action. :thumbsup:

adamredwoods
03-25-2009, 06:47 PM
And the history stack...yes, yes, yes, great to see it in action. :thumbsup:

I cried when I saw that part. They had me at "history".

IMI
03-25-2009, 06:47 PM
From the Lightwave Core page:


LightWave CORE™ is multi-platform. LightWave CORE™ operates under all modern Windows flavors, from XP to 7, from 32 to 64. LightWave CORE™ is also a Macintosh COCOA application, and last, but certainly not least, Linux.


Don

[edit] Yeah Linux !!!

Oh, right, I knew that. :D

SaturnX
03-25-2009, 06:49 PM
Man...
Those Core videos are like watching BSG episodes....

... im left gagging for more. That's a good thing I reckon.

don_culbertson
03-25-2009, 06:50 PM
Oh, right, I knew that. :D

I keep re-reading that section to make sure I'm not dreaming about Linux support :D

Don

Sekhar
03-25-2009, 07:02 PM
yes, yes, yes

Jeez, get a room! :D

SBowie
03-25-2009, 07:20 PM
If wait until Q4 to buy the release for $695, you're not buying a hardcore membership. You're buying finished software. That's what you get. At that point, the only hardcore membership you will be able to buy is for the next release of the software, version 2.0 or whatever they're going to call it, perhaps in Q4 of 2010.

The hardcore membership is a pre-buy. There's no other way to do it. You're buying in before you know exactly what you are getting. But as a benefit, you are getting a discount on the final version.

As far as buying in now for $395. You get the hardcore membership plus the final release. Next year, you are able to buy another hardcore membership for $395, also for another year of hardcore with a final release. You're not locked into buying another membership if you don't want one at that point. Clearly the better deal (if you want CORE) is to buy in now and then decide next year if you are going to want the next version.

This is all as I understand it.I think that's all essentially correct.

Titus
03-25-2009, 07:53 PM
CORE will work fine in all modern OS's.

So, no Amigas? :D

cresshead
03-25-2009, 08:01 PM
nice to see some new vids on the outside of HC forums for people currently 'on the fence' for optiing into hard core or not.

cresshead
03-25-2009, 08:02 PM
So, no Amigas? :D


you'd a thought Core would run on the new nintendo DSi....maybe by Q4 it will:D

Snosrap
03-25-2009, 08:39 PM
I appreciate the small discount, but that was hardly a deciding factor for me at least. $400 now or $500 later was not really a consideration. As someone else said, I too mainly wanted to demonstrate support for the project in a meaningful way, as well as be able to follow along during development with a view to learning Core progressively.

Not only that, but help mold the workflows, suggest new ways to implement tools and functions and last but not least - see to it that we don't get a Shader Tree!:D

SBowie
03-25-2009, 08:45 PM
give you the start of this thread and I quote "1 Week left and no new info on Core". Now where has this thread wandered?Point taken.

hrgiger
03-25-2009, 08:46 PM
I did it for the chicks.

Titus
03-25-2009, 08:49 PM
I'm thrilled by the modifier stack, now downloading the other video.

cresshead
03-25-2009, 08:57 PM
there's a fixed up version of the modifier stack video floating around on HC that's tweeked the audio and edited off the extra black video on the end of the current version...

6+ million polys..pretty neat huh!

Mark The Great
03-25-2009, 09:20 PM
I'd love to see this stuff running on a powerful workstation.

6 million for a not-that-powerful laptop isn't that bad. :)

Cohen
03-25-2009, 09:37 PM
This is great! With more Core reveal, the more I see Newtek turning over a new leaf. Considering those edit speeds Jay was receiving were done on a fairly rudimentary gpu (he was editing on a laptop for crying out loud!), I suspect the feedback I would get on my desktop workstation will be off the chart!

ramccombe
03-25-2009, 11:06 PM
Point taken.

Thanx Steve you are a gentleman.:thumbsup:

geothefaust
03-25-2009, 11:24 PM
This is great! With more Core reveal, the more I see Newtek turning over a new leaf. Considering those edit speeds Jay was receiving were done on a fairly rudimentary gpu (he was editing on a laptop for crying out loud!), I suspect the feedback I would get on my desktop workstation will be off the chart!

Right, I'm really looking forward to using it on my workstation! :thumbsup:

jin choung
03-25-2009, 11:46 PM
i'll refrain from "polluting" the the official announcement with any of my negative observations so i'll continue here.

1. THE GOOD

- software seems intelligently designed from what i can see. what is visible is clean and accessible and simple in the best sense of the word. GOOD DESIGN. along with the the stated philosophy of the software and the the architecture that's already been outlined at launch, it seems like this is a PROMISING DIRECTION for the new lightwave.

- pre-selection is one of those things that is sooooooooooo motherfing obvious that it blows your mind that all apps don't have it. brilliant. good job. i've seen it before of course but it is a welcome addition to lw.

- selection filters are just almost exactly (except for part) what i would have made them... again, simple, well thought out and to be fair, resembles very much MODO... even in the the name "ITEM" which modo uses, instead of the more popular "OBJECT". and if core does get a good animation implementation, this will be a great way to maintain ease of accessibility to the mesh while at the same time allowing you to jump out and perform operations on objects as a whole which is crucial for animation.

- what is shown is good and promising overall with a few reservations.


2. THE BAD (the reservations)

- newtek has misunderstood what we mean when we said show us MORE. they are showing us MORE alright but MORE OF WHAT THEY ALREADY SHOWED US.

again, this bodes ill in the minds of many about the current state of core. you have chosen to show us almost the exact same features you showed in the launch video - IS THAT ALL THERE IS?! really?! there's NOTHING else that you could have POSSIBLY SHOWN?

this is of course assuming that this is all we're gonna get until the 31st. newtek can really shut me up about this here if they show some more breadth in the days to come.

- NO TIMELINE! STILL?! seriously... if it's not even possible to SHOW IT IN A DEMONSTRATION, how much of layout functionality can possibly make it by Q4?

- 6 million polys?! this is smoke and mirrors to me. nothing in that video shows 6 million polys. it looks similar if not exactly the same to that dragon model in 9.6 with TAB activated.

ALL INTERACTION with the components of that model was done among the 28,000 base cage polys. never once was he interacting with a poly that was a member of the 6million poly set.

SO WHAT GOOD IS THE 6 MILLION POLYS? will it take a displacement map? if so, show us! show us something that looks AT ALL DIFFERENT from functionality that is exactly the same as what we have now. more than a big claim but a demo that is remniscent of lightwave 9.6.

FREEZE THE MESH! show us how interactive it is at REAL 6 million polys. or show us that you can see the displacement working on the 6 million polys.

BUT - you say, it is demonstrating the "hardware subd acceleration". but if it's SUBD and not polys, in what sense is it 6 million polys? does it actually tesselate to that many polys ever?

come on. YOU KNOW I'M OUT HERE.

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY do you give me such a large opportunity to call bullsh1t?

- re: history stack demo - WHY must you give us such reason for us to speculate - "why did he have to demonstrate on such a mess of a model that you can't really tell what's going on?" "is he hiding something that's broken?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

finally:

- it's not done. just based on the number of features you were confident enough to demonstrate, it doesn't look close to done.

imo, it is a BAD MOVE to sell a product that isn't done (and won't be by q4). is it even HALFWAY DONE? but alas, this might be something that is necessitated by the need for cash and so... it is what it is.

- but if you guys want to come across as being above board on this, you SHOULD, ABSOLUTELY tell people HOW DONE YOU ARE NOW.

if you guys are not just a bunch of blind guys leading more blind guys, YOU GUYS know what a COMPLETED CORE looks like. so - how far away are you from that? halfway? less than half? far less than half? heaven help you if YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW!

AT THE VERY LEAST, if 1.0 does NOT mean a completed core, if it is just a name of the project that you've determined for the end of Q4, you should let people know that in no uncertain terms.

and if you are WISE, you should trade OPENNESS AND HONESTY for RUSHING THINGS.

if you rush it now when you're just hammering out the first draft, you'll likely f it up - and as you know, a BAD LEGACY IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH FOR A LONG TIME. remember? if you're in active development now, this is the very time you should be going the SLOWEST! MAKE SURE that the infrastructure is JUST SO.

it would be a mistake to rush for the sake of living up to the unrealistic expectations of your hardcore that you allow to persist with your silence and rorshachian enigmas which are sometimes uttered.

jin

geo_n
03-26-2009, 12:16 AM
wow core has a long way to go. if modo took 7 years to have what it has now then newtek needs to hire more people.
anyway its good they posted something in the last moment. maybe its enough to sway fencers back in. after playing around with modo for two days I'm glad I get paid to use 3dmax. It would be so hard to decide which one to buy, modo or core, which one will make me money and worth the money to buy at this cycle.

"core's future is modo now?"

Cohen
03-26-2009, 01:11 AM
@Jin "NO TIMELINE! STILL?! seriously... "

No one is expecting a timeline upon CORE's incarnation, as Jay Roth has provided a clear and concise statement regarding its initial release.

"The Q1 release of CORE is focusing on the CORE modeling toolset, due to the fact that we need the atoms to be in place in order to animate them. The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now, and those that will be activated soon, are required as a foundation for animation, which will be activated sometime after the Q1 release" - Jay Roth

jin choung
03-26-2009, 01:18 AM
[INDENT]No one is expecting a timeline upon CORE's incarnation, as Jay Roth has provided a clear and concise statement regarding its initial release.

read my entire statement. i'm not saying anything about q1. not at all.

i'm saying it bodes ill (or can be... 'boded' ill by reasonable people) for *q4*. a timeline would represent that at least it exists in some dessicated, skeletal, anemic form. it's the "at least there's that" factor.... but we don't have that.

i.e. layout (animation functionality) ain't gonna get in there in a day.

if it ain't in there NOW...

...

...

?

y'know what i mean?

and as i said, if q4 ain't gonna have a substantial amount of what everyone here would consider a "full version of lw", then they owe that bullet point to buyers.

dontcha think?

jin

jin choung
03-26-2009, 01:34 AM
I still miss the "woohoooo!" I MUST BUY example.

jah... i mean it looks good for what it is... but it's not done and it's so preliminary now that it's like talking about the business plan rather than the business. the business plan looks good.

for what that's worth.

jin

Carm3D
03-26-2009, 01:37 AM
After today's reveal, I've decided to wait. I use Silo for modeling and I adore it's interface so paying for another modeler is not a priority. I want to wait and see what new animation / character tools Core will bring to the table; even if it's not this year.

LightWuv
03-26-2009, 01:37 AM
observant?

Modifier stack looks cool.

Would like to know how far along the software is. It's certainly beginning to seem like it's not very far along. Liking what I'm seeing, though!

geo_n, gotta say, cool website. Erai ^^

KillMe
03-26-2009, 01:39 AM
actually in reveal video you can see the show timeline option in the menu's - so its there

but for the q1 release i doubt it will be activated as they are focusing on the modeler for now

dont you hink it would be a mistake to show a half arsed feature thats not finished and has no tools to work with it?

jin choung
03-26-2009, 01:46 AM
dont you hink it would be a mistake to show a half arsed feature thats not finished and has no tools to work with it?

hahahaha... lol....

well... it would CONFIRM what we currently only SUSPECT... !

so actually, i'm not sure how to answer your question! that really cracked me up actually!

jin

p.s. yeah, that button was there in the intro vids too (believe cresshead pointed it out). but is it connected to anything? what does "activated" REALLY mean? and so forth....

also, for me, the fact that just INCIDENTALLY one of these vids hadn't had that timeline up (y'know just cuz someone was playin' around with something before)... sorry if i take that as being telling.

i could be wrong. all they have to do is HIT THAT BUTTON!

AbnRanger
03-26-2009, 01:50 AM
I did it for the chicks.You joined to get a HardCore T-Shirt, thinking that would be a chick-magnet?
I just wouldn't wear that near a school yard...folks might think you're some child porn recruiter....the next thing you know, you're in handcuffs saying "What?...What did I do." :D

jin choung
03-26-2009, 01:57 AM
I just wouldn't wear that near a school yard...

yeah... it can have problematic connotations depending on your circle.

not in my circle though - in my circle it would be perfect.

hmmm.... strippers lookin' to move up in the world and take the next step (and i don't mean community college) might even think i'm a high class producer or somethin'... y'know, the kinda guy who has tshirts! of his bidnizz....

hmmmmmmm....

yes....

that DOES sweeten the deal....

yes.....

jin

Cohen
03-26-2009, 02:13 AM
Right, I have responded to your observations from the video. I thought some of your bad 'reservations' as you put it, are ill concieved and should be reserved till a later time. In particular was the timeline | animation functionality. As Jay Roth has pointed out that animation is not due upon first release. I thought if I made the effort to bold face his statement there would be little confusion. No one can expect to see "animation functionality" or a time line within its very first release. I know you of most don't need a rehash of quotes, but I feel the jest of what you have said is and I quote "it's not done. just based on the number of features you were confident ..., it doesn't look close to done" which I couldn't agree with more. But to expect them to have demonstrate a working timeline and animation layout would be premature at this point. I personally think that we can hold Jay Roth to his word when he says and I paraphrase,

"animation will be activated after the Q1 release." - Jay Roth

An explicit statement confirming that animation will be there eventually, sometime after Q1, yet the functionality is still not known. Jin, personally I'm not a blind guy running with the pack, and do share much of your skepticism on what will be in the final release. But I think this timeline 'reservation' in particular is like

if it ain't in there NOW...

Q1...

Q2...

?Q3 (timeline)

y'know what i mean?

gristle
03-26-2009, 02:34 AM
I still miss the "woohoooo!" I MUST BUY example.

What, you did'nt like the 4 minutes of blackness at the end of the modifier video? :) Sold me.

lino.grandi
03-26-2009, 02:35 AM
wow core has a long way to go. if modo took 7 years to have what it has now then newtek needs to hire more people.

You miss a point here.

Core SDK.

There're a lot of developers out there.

Modo is taking so long even because no SDK has been released.

And do you exactly know how many people are working on Core at the moment?

Don't think so.




anyway its good they posted something in the last moment. maybe its enough to sway fencers back in. after playing around with modo for two days I'm glad I get paid to use 3dmax. It would be so hard to decide which one to buy, modo or core, which one will make me money and worth the money to buy at this cycle.

"core's future is modo now?"

What anyone should buy and use is just related to the kind of 3D work you're doing.

Modo is clearly and strongly on an Archi-Viz way at the moment....so it's no use to me (I mainly do VFX and character work...).

Joining Core means having a chance to take part to a 3D software development...so obviously to something whose features are just starting to be developed (on a very good base "core" imho).

If someone is looking for a final product....should look at somewhere else.

For me using mainly Lightwave9.6 for my everyday job, LWCore is just a great addition to my modeling tasks. I can wait till LWCore will completely replace LW9.6 in my pipeline.

Core architecture looks really powerful...and I think it's going to receive a great development speedup as soon as the SDK will be released.

jin choung
03-26-2009, 02:47 AM
if it ain't in there NOW...

Q1...

Q2...

?Q3 (timeline)

y'know what i mean?

you're right. it COULD be. and it's a small, throwaway point that i just find telling - but that's me. i'm not saying it's proof of anything and they can certainly shut me up by showing more if there really IS more.

and there's that word again - "ACTIVATED".... lol.

love that word. what in the world does it mean? is there any indication that it has been DEACTIVATED instead of simply "not existing yet"?

as for q1, q2, q3... honestly, if animation basically doesn't exist yet NOW... do you really think they can code a non-trivial, relatively bug free implementation of that functionality by q4?

you don't take the absence of a timeline to be a sign of anything. that's fine and valid. but as i said, i think reasonable people can take it as significant.

like if a guy committed to run from los angeles to new york and at the end of the first quarter, you found him hanging out in melrose. sure, he COULD still do it....

?

sorry, i just have the naive impression that software takes a long time and we're not even in beta now! when WILL we have beta? or alpha? i mean we're still in DEVELOPMENT - ACTIVE CODING on the first draft for a very complex product that is supposed be in saleable condition by q4.

as i say, this is all my take on appearances. i could very well be wrong and all the people in hardcore may have information that proves it.

alas, i'm just going by what my non hardcore eyes (wow, never thought i'd ever be able to say THAT) have seen - which they have deigned to reveal to the unwashed masses.

jin

jin choung
03-26-2009, 02:48 AM
And do you exactly know how many people are working on Core at the moment?

Don't think so.

do you?

jin

Drocket
03-26-2009, 03:01 AM
lol, some of you guys make me laugh (seriously, I have watery eyes reading your posts), it appears that whatever Newtek show or say will never be enough for you and you will always find fault. Your choice I guess, but I keep thinking of the monty python song "Always look on the bright side of life, dum dum....."

Maybe you should do the same with core then at the end of the year when you still find fault (which you know you will do) you can stand up and say "see I told you so", but then again you will still say the same whether you like what they deliver or not, some people will always find fault and some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Oh well, need to wipe my eyes again...

Cohen
03-26-2009, 03:11 AM
I recall Jay Roth saying the 3d development team doubled in size before the 9.0 development cycle, after the original team had left. He used the words "largest ever" when they were recruiting, or something similar to that. Though I don't know if this still holds true today.

IMI
03-26-2009, 03:21 AM
(I mainly do VFX and character work...).



Hey you're the guy who made that [email protected] dragon rig in the 9.6 Content, right?
I do know you made this animation of that dragon. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r72qocWVfEg)
:bowdown:

pluMmet
03-26-2009, 03:22 AM
From what I understand Q4 release will have basic animation stuffs in it. How much is any ones guess. It will take time to be a full package. However it also sounds like it will have more then Modo right off the bat.

LightWuv
03-26-2009, 03:30 AM
I recall Jay Roth saying the 3d development team doubled in size before the 9.0 development cycle, after the original team had left. He used the words "largest ever" when they were recruiting, or something similar to that. Though I don't know if this still holds true today.

I see. So, what, five guys? :D

Kidding!


Hey you're the guy who made that [email protected] dragon rig in the 9.6 Content, right?
I do know you made this animation of that dragon. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r72qocWVfEg)
:bowdown:

All due respect to lino.grandi! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Also, to the animator: "Walk cycle animation by Sarah Arduini." :)

IMI
03-26-2009, 03:34 AM
All due respect to lino.grandi! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Also, to the animator: "Walk cycle animation by Sarah Arduini." :)

[partial hijack]
I just had that and the Dragon_RIG scenes loaded up and was checking them out thoroughly. That's some seriously impressive work there, IMO. :thumbsup:
[/partial hijack]

EDIT:
And all the more reason to not write off LW 9.6 so soon, either. CORE ain't gonna be there anytime soon, I don't think.

geo_n
03-26-2009, 03:39 AM
You miss a point here.

Core SDK.

There're a lot of developers out there.

Modo is taking so long even because no SDK has been released.

And do you exactly know how many people are working on Core at the moment?

Don't think so.




What anyone should buy and use is just related to the kind of 3D work you're doing.

Modo is clearly and strongly on an Archi-Viz way at the moment....so it's no use to me (I mainly do VFX and character work...).

Joining Core means having a chance to take part to a 3D software development...so obviously to something whose features are just starting to be developed (on a very good base "core" imho).

If someone is looking for a final product....should look at somewhere else.

For me using mainly Lightwave9.6 for my everyday job, LWCore is just a great addition to my modeling tasks. I can wait till LWCore will completely replace LW9.6 in my pipeline.

Core architecture looks really powerful...and I think it's going to receive a great development speedup as soon as the SDK will be released.

As jin said... :D
anyway I brought modo up because I am seeing what core will be after some time. And at that time what other stuff can modo do and other similar products. If it took 7 years to be at 401 point then core which is a similar product will not magically offer more in a year. But I will be looking at core again when it does and I'm sure I'll be using it again for personal stuff. Lw 9.6 will do just fine :thumbsup:

AbnRanger
03-26-2009, 03:47 AM
lol, some of you guys make me laugh (seriously, I have watery eyes reading your posts), it appears that whatever Newtek show or say will never be enough for you and you will always find fault. Your choice I guess, but I keep thinking of the monty python song "Always look on the bright side of life, dum dum....."

Maybe you should do the same with core then at the end of the year when you still find fault (which you know you will do) you can stand up and say "see I told you so", but then again you will still say the same whether you like what they deliver or not, some people will always find fault and some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Oh well, need to wipe my eyes again...I could flip the script and say you're one gullible chap...but I won't, and I haven't. I too was really excited about CORE until I realized it wasn't anywhere near a resemblance of a complete 3D program. After seeing the CORE reveal, I expected that it would be rough beta version of a final product. It's not, and it's just my opinion that there is a bit of a stink to asking people to pay in order to be an Alpha tester...and a full year in advance of delivery (of what may not even meet half of your expectations). Do you always make these kinds of purchasing decisions? That's why a number of guys have stated that their wives are none to happy about the idea.
The idea of taking precious funds from the family budget and spending it on...on, uh...software that's still in an experimental state. How many TV shows have you seen where the husband scolds the wife for going crazy with the credit card, and her response is something like,"But these shoes and dresses were...ON SALE!." So, please do enlighten us as to just how it is throwing cash at NT's feet a full 2 months before you even get to so much as sniff an Alpha build any different? This is the poster child of rash purchasing decisions...and you're laughing at us?

Heck, Newtek was supposed to be rewriting entire segments of LW back in 2005 (while 9 was announced)...and you're convinced that you'll have a full product in 9-12 months? I mean, seriously...how can you laugh at us when it's folks like yourself that have doled out the cash with nothing but a handshake to show for it?
In a recession like we are in, that's pretty comical...but hey, it beats buying shoes on sale, right?

spherical
03-26-2009, 03:50 AM
Don, doesn't that rationale essentially require assigning a value of zero to Core Q4 product ownership? I'm not following.
What you're not following is that if we could invoice for the sheer hundreds of hours we spend guiding, perfecting, proving and improving their product, paying for the priviledge to share this expertise and work (yes, done right, beta testing is work) is over and above the cost of said product; way over. Some, who went through the entire 8.x and 9.x cycles, should at least receive a pittance extra over someone who just showed up with an empty credit card.

With the current structure, what they get for a team to develop a new product is eager fans who have money to spare; not necessarily people with insight and experiance. The filter is cash.

pluMmet
03-26-2009, 03:51 AM
That's what's laughable...that so many, in their eagerness for something new, bought into something without fully realizing what it was they were getting...

I full realized that $395 is nothing in comparison to the price of a full CG animation package. I also realized that I get to be part of the process.

AbnRanger
03-26-2009, 04:44 AM
I full realized that $395 is nothing in comparison to the price of a full CG animation package. The $495 subscription price for 3ds Max isn't near the price for the full product either, so what's your point?

I also realized that I get to be part of the process.And so does ANY alpha tester of ANY software product. Newtek has just cleverly spun it in such a way as to convince you to pay them to do what others have done for free all these years.

How often do you pay up front for products you won't see for a year or longer? Ohh...that's right...you get to play with their "Mock Ups" in the mean time.

alexos
03-26-2009, 04:52 AM
... How is throwing cash at NT's feet 8weeks before you even get to touch an Alpha build any different?

...how can you laugh at us when it's folks like yourself that have doled out the cash with nothing but a handshake to show for it?[/B]
That's what's laughable...but hey, it beats buying shoes on sale, right?

I've been using Lightwave for, oh man, is it ten years already? Well no- more like fifteen actually. It pays my bills, shoes included; of course Modo, Max or whatever would probably grant me the ability to do the same, perhaps more, perhaps less; but I use Lightwave.

400 bucks (which convert to a nice, smallish amount of euros) is a LOT for a bloody pair of shoes, but it's close to nothing for a work tool. Sure, CORE is still stuck in the realm of Vapourware, but after 15 years I'm more them willing to trust the guys; plus, 9.6 is the best LW ever and so on, but it still lacks stuff that I really could use: so, if my 300-something euros can make me get said stuff faster, I *will* (as I have) dole out the cash without thinking twice.

If you find that laughable, well - glad to entertain you. But if you try to convince me I made the wrong choice, you're definitely wasting your time.

ADP.

AbnRanger
03-26-2009, 04:55 AM
I doubt that they make a difference if the app is at a experimental state or not. And when are wives ever happy? You canīt be married, then:D
And making assessments of what people were expecting or realizing when they bought into Core is bold of you. But you clearly havenīt fallen "into the trap" so why all the fuzz? Itīs not your money to spend, so why do you care? You should just sit back, relax, and wait for the "told you so" moment"....tragic way to spend your life, though.....It didn't bother me (although I do think the whole concept of paying a company to be their alpha tester is downright ridiculous) until mister funny man was trying to have a laugh at our expense...when the joke is that he is the one who essentially whipped out the checkbook/credit card for an I.O.U. in return.

Actually, I don't think it's a laughing matter at all, but if anyone here is worthy of being laughed at, I'd say the one who shelled out $400 2 months ago...is the one

colkai
03-26-2009, 04:56 AM
Seesh, did y'all miss Chucks post?
It's obvious, those who feel they are paying Newtek to help them develop are not going ot be swayed. Those who feel justified in purchasing into Hardcore are not going to be swayed.
Can we just leave it now please? Surely there's only so much time can be spent on "I say ..you say" from both sides?

Chcuk, howsabout maybe this thread can be locked now, stick a fork in it, it's done.

Drocket
03-26-2009, 05:31 AM
I could flip the script and say you're one gullible chap...but I won't, and I haven't. I too was really excited about CORE until I realized it wasn't anywhere near a resemblance of a complete 3D program....

Don,

You missed my point, which is that people wanted new videos etc before making a desicion to buy into core which is fine, for some people this is impotrtant and I am not knocking anyones decision on whether to buy into core or not. We all have our reasons for buying in or not but what I find funny is that Newtek release the new videos (and there may be more to come before the end of the month??) and people still find fault which is why I said Newtek can't win.

My post wasn't a stab at people who haven't bought into core yet but at the people who always find fault.

I hope people get the information they need in order to make their own decision.

As Colkai says, maybe it is time to lock this thread.

Andyjaggy
03-26-2009, 06:46 AM
I like the way the modifier stack works. I like that you just model away like you normally would and it silently puts all your operation into the stack in the background, you don't even have to look at it if you don't want to. Perfect. The best of both worlds.

I don't know if I am sold on it, but I am thankful Newtek showed something. At least now I know you can actually manipulate an object. :) My mind had convinced me that everything we had seen so far was a photoshop or after effects hack job and no real product actually existed. :) See what silence will make people think Newtek. :)

SBowie
03-26-2009, 07:03 AM
What you're not following is that if we could invoice for the sheer hundreds of hours we spend guiding, perfecting, proving and improving their product, paying for the priviledge to share this expertise and work (yes, done right, beta testing is work) is over and above the cost of said product; way over. Some, who went through the entire 8.x and 9.x cycles, should at least receive a pittance extra over someone who just showed up with an empty credit card.

With the current structure, what they get for a team to develop a new product is eager fans who have money to spare; not necessarily people with insight and experiance. The filter is cash.There's nothing unusual at all in this afaics. Testing, if one really gets into it, is always a lot of work. People are not paying to test, they're getting a bit of a break on the end result and some other perks. This is absolutely commonplace, (as are claims to the effect that 'Testing is a lot of work, you owe use more!')

Personally, I've always found NewTek goes the extra mile in being generous, as I think some of the unexpected details of HC demonstrate (like the locked in second-cycle deal).

On another point, those who are already LW (8.x, 9.x, whatever) users do pay substantially less than someone who walks in the door cold with a hot credit card (ignoring cross-grade offers, which are also commonplace).

Finally, re: "eager fans" - the insight and experience of the HC 'volunteers' is a range from near newbie to seasoned pro .... just as it is in the real world and this forum. Not to accuse you personally of it, but I laugh at posts evincing the notion that 'HC sucks because its members are mostly low-talent amateurs - NewTek should have screened them (to meet my personal criteria)'. This is basically saying 'If you don't play by my rules I'm not going to play - I'll just sit over here and throw sticks'. Good grief.

You never hear anyone who is a member complaining about the talent pool, though many could do so based on their expertise. Some seem to feel that they above all others are just so darn amazing they deserve special treatment. Some may well actually deserve (and get) special treatment, but I suspect if someone hasn't already gotten the phone call saying "We can't do this without you so we're shipping you a freebie", it is safe to assume NewTek doesn't share their self-image.

As well, there are already plenty of people involved with breadth and depth of experience, the sort who can point to implementations in other packages and parse valuable concepts. That said though, I've also seen a number of cases over the years where an enthusiastic bumbler who stumbles into things others would never hit makes many useful contributions to the dev process - and I've seen dev team leaders acknowledge their value. Personally, I think this is a bogus issue, and that any who keep poking at this simply show themselves quite vain.

I have no criticism for those who raise questions, or want more info. I also have no problem with NewTek deciding which info to release and when (they automatically reap the consequences - short or long term).

But as Chuck said in so many words yesterday, what is silly is the invective hurled from both sides of the fence. Doing that is both presumptuous and arrogant. (Again, I'm not suggesting you have done this, just speaking generally about this thread.) A decision to become an HC member does not make one stupid, naive, a fanboy, or an amateur. Nor does a decision to wait or to go an altogether different direction make one a 'hater'. And withholding details does not prove there are none - NewTek is under no compulsion to show all its cards at this or any point in the game, and can ignore continuous rants demanding them as it pleases. A decisions pro or con reveals nothing about the person as a person - but when anyone acts in a juvenile, mud-slinging manner, it does reveal something.

Snosrap
03-26-2009, 07:21 AM
how can you laugh at us when it's folks like yourself that have doled out the cash with nothing but a handshake to show for it?
In a recession like we are in, that's pretty comical...but hey, it beats buying shoes on sale, right?

We are talking about $1.08 a day- that's a cup of coffee or a bottle of Coke a day. Personally for me it's worth the gamble to be locked in at that upgrade price for subsequent upgrades and basically why I upgraded. Plus the fact that I can, to a certain degree, influence the direction Lightwave takes.

SBowie
03-26-2009, 07:27 AM
My mind had convinced me that everything we had seen so far was a photoshop or after effects hack job and no real product actually existed.I'm sure you are exaggerating to make your point, but I think you raise a pivotal matter - trust.

We know these guys (well, many of us do). I personally have not a shred of doubt that they are truthful, and carefully stating things they are comfortable stating - also judiciously not stating some things that they may be pretty sure they might accomplish but about which they are not 100% sure ... for the entirely legitimate reasons that 'stuff happens', and this sometimes means either delays to resolve unforeseen issues, or to pursue a late-breaking and better direction. Some others are much more skeptical, for a variety of reasons.

There are also a wide range of expectations. Some think Core is a house of cards (I find this naive), others expect a good deal more (some find that naive). Even the expectations of the latter vary substantially. Personally, I'm expecting a typical 1.0 - that is, essentially, a very promising start but with some voids. Peace unto both houses. Time will reveal all.

cresshead
03-26-2009, 07:56 AM
the vids are showing a 'work in progress' for lightwave core

Jin raises some valid points on both the 'good' and 'bad' aspects of what was shown and not shown.

there's been no 'wow' moments so far in any of the lightwave core vids we've seen so far..maybe to be expected as each tool comes online such as move, bevel, twist etc..they're just got up n running an not a mature tool for any of the tools or u.i.

the thing that hard core forums do have is that newtek ARE listening to people's views and ideas in those forums of how to implement a tool and what options and controls seem to be the way forward...yeah newtek do have their own plan on how n what but they also are open to options for tweeking any tool or process to make it the best for the people who are paying for the development of lightwave core.

as for jins comment on 'activated' regard animation...yeah it maybe just a text label currently under the display dropdown an nothing more....there maybe no animation at all in lghtwave core as of yet..we don't know cos we havn't seen anything..and such areas will be left out of the fisrt build i understand so we won't be able to look anyhow...

as to why nothing shown...could be they want to make modeling the 100% focus for sure but one of the advantages of core was that you could animate modeling so my 'guess' is that animation is not working and probably is just a text label currently.

once i get my sticky fingers on the alpha i'll want to try n make some 'wow' demo's just for myself so i can evaluate where this app is heading..

so far looking good but not great or 'wow'

still it's VERY early days for lightwave core.

Andyjaggy
03-26-2009, 08:10 AM
I'm sure you are exaggerating to make your point, but I think you raise a pivotal matter - trust.

We know these guys (well, many of us do). I personally have not a shred of doubt that they are truthful, and carefully stating things they are comfortable stating - also judiciously not stating some things that they may be pretty sure they might accomplish but about which they are not 100% sure ... for the entirely legitimate reasons that 'stuff happens', and this sometimes means either delays to resolve unforeseen issues, or to pursue a late-breaking and better direction. Some others are much more skeptical, for a variety of reasons.

There are also a wide range of expectations. Some think Core is a house of cards (I find this naive), others expect a good deal more (some find that naive). Even the expectations of the latter vary substantially. Personally, I'm expecting a typical 1.0 - that is, essentially, a very promising start but with some voids. Peace unto both houses. Time will reveal all.

Exaggerating a bit, but I was thinking that for a while. I know it's completely illogical, and I know Newtek would never do that, but your mind starts to do that sometimes.

Jin. Look at it this way. At the very least we can expect Core to be a very capable and robust modeler by the first release at the end of this year. I'm fairly confident we can expect that at least. So........ are you willing to pay $400.00 for a good modeler and an upgrade path to future versions of Core? If not, then you should probably not spend the money. I think its really as simple as that.

I am willing to spend $400.00 for a good modeler, that said however I am still not sure what I am going to do. They have eliminated one of my fears however. I was very very concerned that we were going to loose the quick and easy access to the raw geometric info that has made modeling in Lightwave so great, that we were going to have to dig through a modifier stack, and jack around with editable meshes and polys like in some other programs. The way I saw it in the video however was perfect, we still have the quick and dirty modeling that we have always had, but in the background it's building a history and modifier stack so we get all the power and goodness there. Perfect.

cresshead
03-26-2009, 08:21 AM
I dont think they ARE listening! Newtek just do what they want to do, and they are playing with words in the forums! IF they are listening, why they dont show Nodal-Workflow? Sculpting? Rendering? Timeline?... They JUST do what they want! They never asked if going for modeling is better than having something to catch up 9,6 problems like Layer/passes-system or better Animation to make 9.6 even better!

i believe you missed the point...

newtek have a development roadmap and hc members have 'input' into that roadmap...

if newtek's roadmap is modeling, animation, bones/rigging, rendering

we have input in that...first thing...modeling..THEN the next thing on their roadmap list..it's pretty simple to understand.

if your looking to only have input into say> layer passes for rendering you REALLY should wait till newtek get to that part of their plan/roadmap then get involved in helping shape those tools

i prefer to have input on the whole app not just a small segment of it.

robertoortiz
03-26-2009, 08:38 AM
Seesh, did y'all miss Chucks post?
It's obvious, those who feel they are paying Newtek to help them develop are not going ot be swayed. Those who feel justified in purchasing into Hardcore are not going to be swayed.
Can we just leave it now please? Surely there's only so much time can be spent on "I say ..you say" from both sides?

Chcuk, howsabout maybe this thread can be locked now, stick a fork in it, it's done.\

AMEN...

Good God,

AMEN.

LightWuv
03-26-2009, 08:49 AM
Personally I think there's no need to close the thread. It does seem like the people complaining about the people complaining might, if they ask themselves, actually not feel like reading it, though. Go with the gut, guys. :thumbsup:

So yeah, less of this please


\

AMEN...

Good God,

AMEN.

And more of this please


i'll refrain from "polluting" the the official announcement with any of my negative observations so i'll continue here.

1. THE GOOD

- software seems intelligently designed from what i can see. what is visible is clean and accessible and simple in the best sense of the word. GOOD DESIGN. along with the the stated philosophy of the software and the the architecture that's already been outlined at launch, it seems like this is a PROMISING DIRECTION for the new lightwave.

- pre-selection is one of those things that is sooooooooooo motherfing obvious that it blows your mind that all apps don't have it. brilliant. good job. i've seen it before of course but it is a welcome addition to lw.

- selection filters are just almost exactly (except for part) what i would have made them... again, simple, well thought out and to be fair, resembles very much MODO... even in the the name "ITEM" which modo uses, instead of the more popular "OBJECT". and if core does get a good animation implementation, this will be a great way to maintain ease of accessibility to the mesh while at the same time allowing you to jump out and perform operations on objects as a whole which is crucial for animation.

- what is shown is good and promising overall with a few reservations.


2. THE BAD (the reservations)

- newtek has misunderstood what we mean when we said show us MORE. they are showing us MORE alright but MORE OF WHAT THEY ALREADY SHOWED US.

again, this bodes ill in the minds of many about the current state of core. you have chosen to show us almost the exact same features you showed in the launch video - IS THAT ALL THERE IS?! really?! there's NOTHING else that you could have POSSIBLY SHOWN?

this is of course assuming that this is all we're gonna get until the 31st. newtek can really shut me up about this here if they show some more breadth in the days to come.

- NO TIMELINE! STILL?! seriously... if it's not even possible to SHOW IT IN A DEMONSTRATION, how much of layout functionality can possibly make it by Q4?

- 6 million polys?! this is smoke and mirrors to me. nothing in that video shows 6 million polys. it looks similar if not exactly the same to that dragon model in 9.6 with TAB activated.

ALL INTERACTION with the components of that model was done among the 28,000 base cage polys. never once was he interacting with a poly that was a member of the 6million poly set.

SO WHAT GOOD IS THE 6 MILLION POLYS? will it take a displacement map? if so, show us! show us something that looks AT ALL DIFFERENT from functionality that is exactly the same as what we have now. more than a big claim but a demo that is remniscent of lightwave 9.6.

FREEZE THE MESH! show us how interactive it is at REAL 6 million polys. or show us that you can see the displacement working on the 6 million polys.

BUT - you say, it is demonstrating the "hardware subd acceleration". but if it's SUBD and not polys, in what sense is it 6 million polys? does it actually tesselate to that many polys ever?

come on. YOU KNOW I'M OUT HERE.

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY do you give me such a large opportunity to call bullsh1t?

- re: history stack demo - WHY must you give us such reason for us to speculate - "why did he have to demonstrate on such a mess of a model that you can't really tell what's going on?" "is he hiding something that's broken?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

finally:

- it's not done. just based on the number of features you were confident enough to demonstrate, it doesn't look close to done.

imo, it is a BAD MOVE to sell a product that isn't done (and won't be by q4). is it even HALFWAY DONE? but alas, this might be something that is necessitated by the need for cash and so... it is what it is.

- but if you guys want to come across as being above board on this, you SHOULD, ABSOLUTELY tell people HOW DONE YOU ARE NOW.

if you guys are not just a bunch of blind guys leading more blind guys, YOU GUYS know what a COMPLETED CORE looks like. so - how far away are you from that? halfway? less than half? far less than half? heaven help you if YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW!

AT THE VERY LEAST, if 1.0 does NOT mean a completed core, if it is just a name of the project that you've determined for the end of Q4, you should let people know that in no uncertain terms.

and if you are WISE, you should trade OPENNESS AND HONESTY for RUSHING THINGS.

if you rush it now when you're just hammering out the first draft, you'll likely f it up - and as you know, a BAD LEGACY IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH FOR A LONG TIME. remember? if you're in active development now, this is the very time you should be going the SLOWEST! MAKE SURE that the infrastructure is JUST SO.

it would be a mistake to rush for the sake of living up to the unrealistic expectations of your hardcore that you allow to persist with your silence and rorshachian enigmas which are sometimes uttered.

jin

I like the modifier stack, and as someone said in the really cool Core thread, the unobtrusiveness of it is appealing for stack noobs.

For people afraid of losing LW's signature simplicity, did you express those feelings when the volume stack and, say, the reconstruction filters were added back in the day? How do you feel about those now?

GandB
03-26-2009, 11:40 AM
I've had a look at the mess that AD is creating with the licensing conversion of Softimage users; I've got to say that it has really put me off buying anything that is connected with Autodesk at this time.

-Keith

hrgiger
03-26-2009, 01:03 PM
I've had a look at the mess that AD is creating with the licensing conversion of Softimage users; I've got to say that it has really put me off buying anything that is connected with Autodesk at this time.

-Keith

Welcome to my world. While CORE is being developed, this would have been a great time to delve even deeper into XSI but I've been so put off by the AD acquisition that it brought me full time back to Lightwave. I believe CORE will be the best package for me in the long run, but for now, I'm focusing on 9.6. That may change as I see how things are progressing with the builds of CORE.

Carm3D
03-26-2009, 01:45 PM
Welcome to my world. While CORE is being developed, this would have been a great time to delve even deeper into XSI but I've been so put off by the AD acquisition that it brought me full time back to Lightwave. I believe CORE will be the best package for me in the long run, but for now, I'm focusing on 9.6. That may change as I see how things are progressing with the builds of CORE.

Me too (like some brain-dead AOL'er)

XSI was probably a waste of $3k for me. :/ SyFlex is cool tho.

GandB
03-26-2009, 01:47 PM
Well, as I said in my own thread (long buried now); I'm going to concentrate on the tools I have now and my skill-set. So it'll be LW 9.6 for some time for me. Of course that won't keep me from popping in with my 2 cents on CORE once in awhile (especially with Game Dev issues).

-Keith

jayroth
03-26-2009, 02:09 PM
IF they are listening, why they dont show Nodal-Workflow? Sculpting? Rendering? Timeline?... They JUST do what they want!

Why haven't we shown those things yet? Simple. Those things are not yet ready to be shown. When they are, we will show them. As for the order of what gets done, etc., or that we are ignoring requests along those lines, well, that's just plain silly. There is an order of progression that must occur to deliver a solid product. We cannot go deep into sculpting without having the infrastructure in place to support it. We are focusing on the modeling tools and the environment at first because those things are universal to everything else that you will want to do with the application.

I completely understand if what we have shown thus far is not enough for you to join the program. You have your choice of participating in the program or not; no one is twisting your arm to do so.

I think you need to maintain a proper perspective here, though. We are just at the beginning of this journey; HardCORE members have the opportunity to work directly with us to shape what CORE will become. This level of collaboration has never occurred in such a scale before in the 3D business. This is an incredible opportunity to put your stamp on a major application.

So, to say we are not listening is patently untrue. Things just need to happen in a particular order.

I hope that this helps you understand the situation a bit better.

A Mejias
03-26-2009, 02:13 PM
$300.

395 before march 31 (save 300)
495 after april 1 (save 200)
695 after CORE release. (full price)

PLUS if you join HC before 03/31/09 you lock in the 395 for NEXT YEARS subscription / upgrade.

So you potentially save more that $300 maybey more like $500 or $600 if you upgrade next year cause the price will go up.

*Pete*
03-26-2009, 02:41 PM
and a Tshirt...

LightWuv
03-26-2009, 02:45 PM
Why haven't we shown those things yet? Simple. Those things are not yet ready to be shown. When they are, we will show them. As for the order of what gets done, etc., or that we are ignoring requests along those lines, well, that's just plain silly. There is an order of progression that must occur to deliver a solid product. We cannot go deep into sculpting without having the infrastructure in place to support it. We are focusing on the modeling tools and the environment at first because those things are universal to everything else that you will want to do with the application.

I completely understand if what we have shown thus far is not enough for you to join the program. You have your choice of participating in the program or not; no one is twisting your arm to do so.

I think you need to maintain a proper perspective here, though. We are just at the beginning of this journey; HardCORE members have the opportunity to work directly with us to shape what CORE will become. This level of collaboration has never occurred in such a scale before in the 3D business. This is an incredible opportunity to put your stamp on a major application.

So, to say we are not listening is patently untrue. Things just need to happen in a particular order.

I hope that this helps you understand the situation a bit better.

Thanks, Jay :)

IMI
03-26-2009, 02:50 PM
and a Tshirt...

Can we get the T-shirt without the HC membership?
Is the T-shirt license transferable to non-CORE people?

Really, I want to know.

No, let me rephrase that - I NEED to know! Now!

Ever since the t-shirt was mentioned, I've not seen any more about it from NT. Will it be updated? Will it still work after one's HC membership expires?
Will it be cross-visionally compatible, meaning will it display properly to all who see it regardless of eye make and model?

Is it cotton, polyester, a blend? Fruit of the Loom? Jerzees?

We have seen NOTHING new about the t-shirt, and that's just pathetic.

SBowie
03-26-2009, 02:57 PM
Oh, someone wants to play - cool. :)

I don't even believe there is a tee-shirt. I've also not seen Eagle-in-a-Barrel. I'm VERY worried about that. A big part of my business plan is eagles ... and barrels. Well, mostly barrels. Really, just emptying barrels. Well, to be precise, they are more like kegs actually.

*Pete*
03-26-2009, 02:58 PM
NT is working hard to remove some nasty bugs from the Tshirts that came from some of the less hygienic hardcore members...it was a weird twist of responsibilities, instead of NT adding bugs and we finding them, it turned out that we added the bugs and now NT is hunting them...

so, yes...some delays are to expected, but those Tshirts are now ONLY for hardcorers..and this is not in any way intented to discriminate non hardcorers, it is meant for your safety and to avoid the spread of bugs and viruses....

yes, viruses...you wouldnt want to know what kind of people joined HC...really.

Mark The Great
03-26-2009, 02:59 PM
Can we get the T-shirt without the HC membership?
Is the T-shirt license transferable to non-CORE people?

Really, I want to know.

No, let me rephrase that - I NEED to know! Now!

Ever since the t-shirt was mentioned, I've not seen any more about it from NT. Will it be updated? Will it still work after one's HC membership expires?
Will it be cross-visionally compatible, meaning will it display properly to all who see it regardless of eye make and model?

Is it cotton, polyester, a blend? Fruit of the Loom? Jerzees?

We have seen NOTHING new about the t-shirt, and that's just pathetic.
If and when we get it, it will be coming apart at the seams and we'll have to upgrade to 'next year's model' just to fix it! Pathetic. They keep trying to pull the same stuff...

*Pete*
03-26-2009, 03:00 PM
i hope i didnt break any nda's with that....hmmm.

Steve.

im sorry, the eagle in the barrel is dead.
ask Jay.

IMI
03-26-2009, 03:01 PM
NT is working hard to remove some nasty bugs from the Tshirts that came from some of the less hygienic hardcore members...

yes, viruses...you wouldnt want to know what kind of people joined HC...really.

Oh, so we might inadvertently get an STD-shirt?

Yeah, that would be really fun to try to explain to the missus. :D

SBowie
03-26-2009, 03:06 PM
im sorry, the eagle in the barrel is dead.Noooooooooooo!!! And I missed the funeral. Well, at least there's still the Haiku Generator ... wait, don't tell me.

Wickster
03-26-2009, 03:19 PM
Well like I said. All i needed was simple push and I'd fall off the waiting fence. So I'm in the CORE. Now was that too hard to do (releasing info)? :D

Sekhar
03-26-2009, 03:21 PM
Can we get the T-shirt without the HC membership?

Yep, $395 + shipping.

cresshead
03-26-2009, 03:23 PM
Yep, $395 + shipping.

or if you want 2 tee shirts so one can be in the 'wash' $395 X 2 :)

*Pete*
03-26-2009, 03:34 PM
Well like I said. All i needed was simple push and I'd fall off the waiting fence. So I'm in the CORE. Now was that too hard to do (releasing info)? :D

congrats...go read the sticky post by HrGiger once you arrive over there.

Celshader
03-26-2009, 04:03 PM
Well like I said. All i needed was simple push and I'd fall off the waiting fence. So I'm in the CORE.

After reading hrgiger's excellent thread, please visit the scripting forum, too.

:dance:

Andrewstopheles
03-26-2009, 04:12 PM
Jay and Chuck, thank you both for the info.
OK, I need to go buy into CORE now.

Andrewstopheles
03-26-2009, 04:37 PM
It's done.
I am sooooo HardCore!
Where's my t-shirt?

Wickster
03-26-2009, 04:38 PM
After reading hrgiger's excellent thread, please visit the scripting forum, too.

:dance:
I plan too. I'm about ready to take on Python. I got my portable eclipse with pydev and python installed on my flash drive. now I just need find some time to actually start coding. :)

hrgiger
03-26-2009, 05:56 PM
FYI- a third video has been added to the core page: www.newtek.com/core

littlewaves
03-26-2009, 06:15 PM
FYI- a third video has been added to the core page: www.newtek.com/core

Holy m$*@e(r F**Ģ$&g S||?&t!!!!!

They've only gone and posted a video about how you can assign shortcut keys!

This is so revolutionary.

It's like Quark Xpress 1.2 all over again

what next "save as"??

I'm going to be honest here. I actually was quite impressed by the other two videos and am still wavering over the buy button.

But seriously was this feature REALLY worth a video?

Maybe I've missed something. If so I humbly apologize

hrgiger
03-26-2009, 06:23 PM
Maybe I've missed something. If so I humbly apologize

Well, don't be too hard on them. I assume it was in response because some people were asking about shortcuts in CORE.

Sekhar
03-26-2009, 06:33 PM
Holy m$*@e(r F**Ģ$&g S||?&t!!!!!

They've only gone and posted a video about how you can assign shortcut keys!

This is so revolutionary.

At least this reassure sfolks that the learning curve isn't going to be that bad in the sense we can continue using our old shortcuts.

adamredwoods
03-26-2009, 06:41 PM
I'm going to be honest here. I actually was quite impressed by the other two videos and am still wavering over the buy button.

But seriously was this feature REALLY worth a video?

Maybe I've missed something. If so I humbly apologize

I thought the two videos were showing history stack and openGL polygon acceleration-- two things that LW 9.6 kindof lacks.

Let me be honest-- do people think before posting anymore?

AbnRanger
03-26-2009, 06:52 PM
I must say that I'm really digging the new UI. I wonder if Matt helped in any meaningful way? I hope they keep it looking this clean and uncluttered

adamredwoods
03-26-2009, 06:54 PM
Let me be honest-- do people think before posting anymore?

HAHA! Looks like I don't read before posting.... didn't see the third video!!
My apologies! (Just tired of having to weed through posting [email protected] to get to the juicy parts)

GandB
03-26-2009, 07:34 PM
openGL polygon acceleration
Missed that one; thought the second was about selection tools (at least that's what I got out of it)?

Andyjaggy
03-26-2009, 07:36 PM
Okay I just ordered, for better or worse I am in now. Order #6829

thomascheng
03-26-2009, 09:02 PM
Ok, I'm convinced I need to spend $395 on this. Now where will I get this money?

Philbert
03-26-2009, 10:22 PM
I'm glad there's some evidence of a keyboard shortcut editor. Now I know I can continue changing my cut/copy/paste back to x/c/v and Undo/Redo back to U/Shift+U.


Ok, I'm convinced I need to spend $395 on this. Now where will I get this money?

Yeah I'm really upset I'm finally getting some income and will be able to afford it but the check won't come until the 2nd week of April.

Snosrap
03-26-2009, 10:29 PM
Now I know I can continue changing my cut/copy/paste back to x/c/v and Undo/Redo back to U/Shift+U.

Amen to that:agree: You must be a lefty too:D

Philbert
03-27-2009, 01:28 AM
Amen to that:agree: You must be a lefty too:D


Nope righty all me life. :p Just got used to using those keys in school and wondered why it would change, seems silly to use 2 keys for all of hose common functions when one will work better. Aside from Shift+U of course, that's just easier to remember this way.

littlewaves
03-27-2009, 05:00 AM
HAHA! Looks like I don't read before posting.... didn't see the third video!!
My apologies! (Just tired of having to weed through posting [email protected] to get to the juicy parts)

Well for what it's worth I confess that it was frustration (and maybe a beer or two) more than thought that went into my post.

I just don't think it looks at all impressive to have this as one of the 3 feature videos on the public core site.

Sure people wanted to know that they'd be able to customize shortcuts but really it would have been pretty incredible if that hadn't been possible and a sentence would have done to reassure them

On the plus side maybe this video being added after the others is a sign that there'll be a whole string of videos coming. Kind of like the 24 hrs of proton tutorials where some of them were about really basic stuff that some people might just have missed.

A shortcut key video in amongst a whole load of other minor but useful features makes sense but as one of three videos on the main page it just looks like they're really scraping around for something to show.

wolfiboy
03-27-2009, 07:11 AM
Hi there!

There are still 5 days to go and it is 'out of stock'?
I just tried to join the membership - clicked on the 'join now'-button - and was rerouted to the NT registration-side and I logged in. When I click on the 'core'-image I'm rerouted to the NT-shop, there it says 'out of stock'.

Has anybody else made this experience?

littlewaves
03-27-2009, 07:16 AM
Hi there!

There are still 5 days to go and it is 'out of stock'?
I just tried to join the membership - clicked on the 'join now'-button - and was rerouted to the NT registration-side and I logged in. When I click on the 'core'-image I'm rerouted to the NT-shop, there it says 'out of stock'.

Has anybody else made this experience?

yes me.

Seems to be a problem for some people outside the US.

There's a couple of other threads about it but there appear to be a few variations on the problem.

I guess the best solution is to try and call them.

GraphXs
03-27-2009, 09:56 AM
I got the same "out of stock" and I'm in the US:thumbsdow

littlewaves
03-27-2009, 10:01 AM
It's a conspiracy I tell you!

They don't want anyone else to join before the price goes up!

either that or they just can't get their sh!t together.

Lewis
03-27-2009, 10:05 AM
Interesting, out of stock for SW, that's a new one :) :D. NT please solve this ASAP, people want to give you more money ;).

littlewaves
03-27-2009, 10:44 AM
buy now seems to be working again now.

Now I can go back to dithering about whether or not I should go for it

GraphXs
03-27-2009, 11:07 AM
Yes, it's working again: LWCORE#6872

Zithen
03-27-2009, 11:28 AM
Just want to say that I appreciate the videos. Even though there is some ways to go before Core is a complete app, it looks good so far!
I am interested in buying.

Anyone know the frequency of the builds that will be released? And how does the feedback with the development team work? Can you write to them directly? How does the interchange work? Do you have access to the SDK?

Thanks!