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gordonrobb
03-13-2009, 04:50 AM
Sorry to create a new thread, but I find that most of the core threads have all sorts of rambling discussions and arguments that make it harder to get any informatoin.

I have one question for someone in the know to answer.

Will there be more information, before 31st of March, on what Core version 1 is going to have. I have my $395 ready, but I still don't really know what I'm going to get for it.

Any help anyone?

UnCommonGrafx
03-13-2009, 04:55 AM
My wager is that the thought is: there's more than enough info to see the path.

Mind you, they may put out another push but so much of the info will be what has to-date been shared.

StereoMike
03-13-2009, 05:43 AM
I thought we would see more videos? No? :(

GandB
03-13-2009, 05:51 AM
That's what Jay said.

gordonrobb
03-13-2009, 05:59 AM
My wager is that the thought is: there's more than enough info to see the path.

Mind you, they may put out another push but so much of the info will be what has to-date been shared.

I hope that that is not their view, as short of a 'taste' of the potential of the new structure, there has been little or no info on what they expect the first version ot have. Don't get me wrong, I am Newtek through and through, but I love 9.6 with LWCad, and anless there is going to be some of the potential benifits, I won't upgrade yet.

UnCommonGrafx
03-13-2009, 06:09 AM
I, too, have hoped that is not their view. However, I also hope they will show something 'available' as opposed to theory. To that end, the wait is tolerable.

As to theory, the majority of what will fill up here is speculation as to what the future holds. For example as a 'taste', look at any of the modern 3d apps, in particular Houdini. Now, imagine all that power working in LW in a lw way. It is, afterall, the gist of the announcement.

The comment, "Spend money to save money" makes sense here.

paulrus
03-13-2009, 06:42 AM
As a former LW user who is seriously considering coming back I would strongly urge NT to get more info out ASAP. I am totally and utterly frustrated by Autodesk now that they own Softimage. Honestly their licensing department has screwed everything up - I've paid for maintenance for a year on a total of 4 licenses and yet they've "lost" one and all the others have expired just a few months after I paid for a year! Nobody knows what's going on, and their licensing dept. is totally overwhelmed with complaints.

However, until I actually see what LWCore is all about, I'm going to sit back and wait.

PG

cresshead
03-13-2009, 07:06 AM
we'll probably get a core page update around 27th march with some new screen shots and so have the weekend to help people decide on the march 31 deadline offer...

Newtek have REALLY gone 'dark' currently...i think they'e quite busy coding the beta version and so have no time to make videos or screen grabs.

gordonrobb
03-13-2009, 07:22 AM
Newtek have REALLY gone 'dark' currently...i think they'e quite busy coding the beta version and so have no time to make videos or screen grabs.

I hope you're right.

gordonrobb
03-13-2009, 07:23 AM
The comment, "Spend money to save money" makes sense here.

Not if you end up not getting auseable product till Q4 2010 though.

UnCommonGrafx
03-13-2009, 09:00 AM
I'm pretty sure 9.6 will suffice up until that time. I believe there has been some kind of announcement that said the tools are simbiotic, i.e., Core+9.6 for the moment. Complimentary and supplementary is my understanding.

Based on that, a useable product ought to be available come 4th qtr 2009. "Ought" would be the operative term.

gordonrobb
03-13-2009, 09:47 AM
Yeh, I don't even mind if there are some really good modellling improvements, but I have to use 9.6 for layout. I just don't want to have something which as little or no improvments over what I ahve already.

Wickster
03-13-2009, 09:48 AM
Yeah, I kinda lost the "drive" to get in the core ASAP right now, cause I haven't heard anything new for awhile. I'm gonna probably pony up the extra $100 sometime later though. As Robert said, 9.6 does work (very well) for me right now. So yeah, I'm probably going to miss the early sale special. :(

Then again, there's still half a month left from now. If something jaw dropping was to come out before then I can probably grab my coat and fedora hat and start twisting arms to get some of them loans people owe me. :D

shemp
03-13-2009, 07:54 PM
I'm very disappointed that they haven't come forth with some videos & more details yet. Their deadline is approaching fast & until I see a lot more stuff no money is being spent. And if they post a little something just a few days before the deadline – forget it. I've sat back & checked the forum daily for weeks & nothing. I've held off posting my negative thoughts also until now, but times a wasting. Kind of makes me wonder...

Shemp

Andyjaggy
03-13-2009, 08:04 PM
Ummmm yeah. I'm expecting them to show some new screen shot or something right at the end of March. I've gone back and forth a lot but at the moment it's looking like a big no for me.

It took Modo 5+ years to get to where they are now starting from scratch, if it's going to take core that long (which is only logical) then I'll be back in 5 years and they'll get my money then. I guess. I don't know, I'm just feeling especially pessimistic at the moment.

the3dwiz
03-13-2009, 08:37 PM
Yes, im pessimistic to. If NewTek is not able to give more infos before end of march, i think they probably will not be able to hand out the Core alpha/beta to the HardCore members for Q1. And then i still dont know what Core will be at Q4. So if NT stay to their price anouncement (Update price 695.- after Q4) then i maby bether wait 2-3 Years to see witch direction Core will take.

animotion
03-14-2009, 12:56 AM
Those of us that joined core have access to the core forum along with some very cool information.:thumbsup:

gordonrobb
03-14-2009, 04:32 AM
Those of us that joined core have access to the core forum along with some very cool information.:thumbsup:

I did not open this thread to be negative. I am genuinely looking for more information. But if I have to spend to $395 to be sold on buying, then someone somewhere has got things a little on there head have they not?

AbnRanger
03-14-2009, 05:33 AM
I understand the open beta thread's purpose, but if there is "Cool Information" it NEEDS to be made public; otherwise, with a deadline to join about to pass...they are simply "preaching to the choir."

People who are waiting for more information to decide whether to join are the ones who need this "Cool Information," in order to make a decision.

I was really jazzed about the CORE announcement, but soon after the announcement, Autodesk revealed some features in the upcoming 3ds Max 2010 that blew me away. Then to find out that CORE is essentially taking the Modo route...starting out with a modeler...I'm taking a wait-and-see approach instead. Like another year or two kind of wait.

In the reveal video, Jay stated that they had more to show....just not "today." I was expecting more...as in a week or two. Why the March 31st deadline if Newtek is going to leave folks hanging until right before the buzzer goes off? I understand that the company really needs some revenue after such a lengthy v9 cycle, but this is showing how ad hoc this whole LW CORE announcement is. Would you show a partially finished demo reel to a client or prospective employer? No...you make sure it's finished and polished, otherwise you show it in vain...communicating to them that upon a deadline they might also get a half-baked, half-finished job.

the3dwiz
03-14-2009, 05:36 AM
2 Animotion
Sorry, but some question and answer seam not enough for me! Im not 100% shure, but as far as i know there was no Video in the member zone as far. And if im not wrong NT promissed much more Infos, or at last more infos until March 31. So im still waiting!Untilnow i have seen nothing more than 2 Pics with the info how good Core is in pushing high poly objects. (-->Yes Stills!:-(

kfinla
03-14-2009, 05:42 AM
Yep, I keep checking back here hoping Jay has posted some more progress/road map/screens about Core. I expect more info to be disseminated before the 31st since we were told we would get more. But I am not surprised we have not heard anymore yet. The first Beta build is due on the 31st, so they are probably working feverishly to make that date. The longer they wait the more progress and polish they have to show. It may be marketing's plan to not show something till a day or so before the end of the $395 promotion. Until then I have weekly Modo 401 reveals.

the3dwiz
03-14-2009, 05:53 AM
Don`t want to be to negative. But if they can take a screengrab with the highpoly models, why not take a screenrecording? It only takes 5 to 10min to record and edit it.....???

UnCommonGrafx
03-14-2009, 08:37 AM
Wouldn't even have to edit it if they use a VT or TC and IVGA = direct to the format, with switches and cg.

ramccombe
03-14-2009, 08:48 AM
I too expected more from Newtek. I'm still on the "CORE fence" as it were and until I see a lot more I will not commit. All the hype then silence. WTF guys? :tsktsk:

biliousfrog
03-14-2009, 10:30 AM
It's all very well expecting to pop back in couple of years when CORE has caught up with Modo/Houdini/Max/Maya/XSI...but remember that all of those apps will have moved on too. A lot can happen within 3d software in 2-3yrs and NewTek are going to be starting at the back of the grid with a fraction of the staff and income of some of the other companies. It's purely speculation that they'll be able to catch up with the competition before losing their market share completely.

cresshead
03-14-2009, 10:39 AM
my speculation falls into 3 trains of thought...

1.newtek are super heads down busy trying to make that self imposed deadline of 31st march a reality for the release of core alpha/beta 0.1 and so don't want to waste time making inbetween videos if the dev is moving so fast that it'll look old even if released this week showing as video or 2...and remember the slap in the face 'some' people gave them for their initial video...twice shy maybe.

2.they are having development problems and it's going slow, so not much to show until they work out what's holding up the dev..re bugs etc..

3.newtek are looking to over deliver what people expect from the first beta release and are throwing in a load of cool stuff to take the sting out of the final spec sheets from modo 401, houdini 10 and 3dsmax 2010 which are all due around the same time.

pure speculation....as always!

kfinla
03-14-2009, 10:55 AM
Well I know from my own experience putting together demos and content for E3 for example is always a pain. It is usually over and above what you are already doing, rarely is it something worked into the schedule. It is a necessary evil.

Snosrap
03-14-2009, 11:12 AM
It may be marketing's plan to not show something till a day or so before the end of the $395 promotion.


Marketing departments are known to jump the gun on cool products. They probably have monthly reviews with the developers and were getting excited by what they saw and wanted to get something out to the public (may have been pushed a little by accounts receivables as well). My guess is that the developers weren't ready to show all their cards. The suites had their day in the sun, now the developers can say "you guys blew it", and are playing some hard ball. Basically they want to show their best stuff and not be rushed my some marketing kid just out of college. So they are probably using this time to fine tune some things so we will be impressed. Purely speculation on my part, but plausible.

shemp
03-14-2009, 12:04 PM
Just how long does it take to put together a couple of minute long screen grab videos or something? To think that every single person in the company is to busy to do this is wishful thinking. I have no desire to speculate on reasons for the lack of info. It is what it is & thats a missed opportunity to bring more users on board.

This cool Core info on the Core forum most certainly needs to be made public. Maybe not everything going on there, but the highlights. I was on the LW9 beta & often wondered what the non-beta users were thinking during the process. Not good...

$395 to be on the beta this time, until Q4 we hope, with no more info than we have? Not good again - for me. I'm mostly a hobbyist with a few paying jobs once in a while. I could be wrong but I think there are many hobbyist & such like myself that in these economic times can't justify it - especially on what little info we have.

I really hate to be negative & I've used LW since 5 but...

Shemp

Andyjaggy
03-14-2009, 02:23 PM
Well I am glad to see I'm not the only one who is a bit worried/annoyed that we haven't seen anything yet. Jay did make it sound on the reveal video that tons of more videos and such were on there way shortly. Obviously they didn't really have any, or they have some other market strategy that isn't working for me. :)

I'm not paying 400 bucks to find out more info on if I should spend 400 bucks. :)

frantbk
03-14-2009, 02:35 PM
3.newtek are looking to over deliver what people expect from the first beta release and are throwing in a load of cool stuff to take the sting out of the final spec sheets from modo 401, houdini 10 and 3dsmax 2010 which are all due around the same time.
pure speculation....as always!

I thought Modo was due for release this April? 2Q of 09?

frantbk
03-14-2009, 02:41 PM
It's all very well expecting to pop back in couple of years when CORE has caught up with Modo/Houdini/Max/Maya/XSI...but remember that all of those apps will have moved on too. A lot can happen within 3d software in 2-3yrs and NewTek are going to be starting at the back of the grid with a fraction of the staff and income of some of the other companies. It's purely speculation that they'll be able to catch up with the competition before losing their market share completely.

Nobody is sitting still while NT produces Lightwave Core. I doubt Autodesk cares much about NT, or Core. Maybe Lux, Maxon, and Side Effects (errr.,.... I doubt side effects cares). Two to three years waiting for Lightwave Core to mature. I don't think NT has that much time left in the market place of full modeling/animation packages.

frantbk
03-14-2009, 02:46 PM
Well I am glad to see I'm not the only one who is a bit worried/annoyed that we haven't seen anything yet. Jay did make it sound on the reveal video that tons of more videos and such were on there way shortly. Obviously they didn't really have any, or they have some other market strategy that isn't working for me. :)

I'm not paying 400 bucks to find out more info on if I should spend 400 bucks. :)

Didn't NT make the same statement during 9.5? Ton's of video will be release, but nothing showed up. Is $495.00 worth the cool information? I see many of the HardCore members saying their is cool info at the Core forum, but wouldn't you say that if you spent $395.00 and the info you had was all speculation on what Core might be at beta release.

-EsHrA-
03-14-2009, 03:38 PM
worst reveal ever..
can i say .. ' FAIL ' ?! :)

and still no new material...


mlon

hrgiger
03-14-2009, 05:49 PM
Didn't NT make the same statement during 9.5? Ton's of video will be release, but nothing showed up. Is $495.00 worth the cool information? I see many of the HardCore members saying their is cool info at the Core forum, but wouldn't you say that if you spent $395.00 and the info you had was all speculation on what Core might be at beta release.

We (HardCORE members) have been told what to expect for the beta release. We know pretty much what tools will be in the initial release. There's not a lot of speculation or mystery to it. We have asked questions and been given answers to those questions. Right now the focus is on the Q1 release and not what may or may not be in the Q4 release.
And -EsHrA-, the reveal might have seemed like a fail to you but I think you're missing the big picture. The reveal was not about showing you a finished or even near finished demo of release software, it was to announce that Lightwave was being rewritten and what we can expect down the road. I understand that everyone is eager for more information on CORE but Newtek is busy trying to get the first build of CORE out and they want to be sure the next thing they show is worth showing after all the criticism they got over the reveal.

UnCommonGrafx
03-14-2009, 06:24 PM
But, hrgiger, isn't that because you have already been 'sold' on what they say will be coming and have extrapolated positives for yourself in that regard?

Incidently, me, too.

These guys aren't willing to be convinced.

Based on the ONGOING conversation about the Reveal, I would say it was marketing genius. But that's me.

Ernest
03-14-2009, 06:45 PM
Not only that. When I got to the steaming video and put the mouse on it, it said that there were like 770 other people watching. I don't know if there was a mass influx of viewers after I switched to full screen, I guess it's possible. From the order numbers, it seems that about 800 people have ordered. So, as far as I know, the reveal video was a resounding success. It was meant for Lightwave users only, after all. It was not even all Newtek customers that were informed of the countdown. Only current Lightwavers.

hrgiger
03-14-2009, 07:25 PM
But, hrgiger, isn't that because you have already been 'sold' on what they say will be coming and have extrapolated positives for yourself in that regard?

Incidently, me, too.


I'm sold on the move Newtek is making to rebuild LW so for me, it's more of an investment into a new Lightwave more then what I'll benefit in the short term.
But I understand that a lot of people make their living with this software so if I were in that position I'd be more cautious and would probably wait until more information was made available before making an investment. At the same time, it's a shame I think that many may have to pass up on such a good introductory price.
In the CORE forums I suggested that whatever news is next for us be shared with the rest of the community so that more people might be able to take advantage of the introductory pricing.

frantbk
03-14-2009, 07:39 PM
We (HardCORE members) have been told what to expect for the beta release. We know pretty much what tools will be in the initial release. There's not a lot of speculation or mystery to it. We have asked questions and been given answers to those questions. Right now the focus is on the Q1 release and not what may or may not be in the Q4 release.


I understand were you're coming from hrgiger. What I'm trying to point out to the others is that some HardCore members are coming into the general posting are and (what looks like it to me) getting people riled-up so they'll panic buy into Core. Some just like to come in here and piss on the non-HardCore members talking about the "cool information" their getting as HardCore members.
I know you are not one of those, so don't take it that way, but others are having some misplaced fun. This is something NewTek needs to address because it will over time create hard feelings towards NT as much as it will against the a**-clowns having their fun.

And -EsHrA-, the reveal might have seemed like a fail to you but I think you're missing the big picture. The reveal was not about showing you a finished or even near finished demo of release software, it was to announce that Lightwave was being rewritten and what we can expect down the road. I understand that everyone is eager for more information on CORE but Newtek is busy trying to get the first build of CORE out and they want to be sure the next thing they show is worth showing after all the criticism they got over the reveal.

I think the reveal did what it was intended to do. Steaming video still isn't ready for prime time. NewTek needs to keep that in mind in the future. NewTek shouldn't be too upset, after all it did create a buzz that has lasted 3 weeks.

Sekhar
03-14-2009, 07:59 PM
In the CORE forums I suggested that whatever news is next for us be shared with the rest of the community so that more people might be able to take advantage of the introductory pricing.

That's awfully nice, thanks! Hope NT agrees.

geo_n
03-14-2009, 09:52 PM
We (HardCORE members) have been told what to expect for the beta release. We know pretty much what tools will be in the initial release. There's not a lot of speculation or mystery to it.

If you've been told exactly what to expect. Why not tell everyone who is atleast still interest at Newtek what to expect? Its so wierd for them not to. They're not gaining customer confidence at all with this way. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thinking this at this time mid march.

hrgiger
03-14-2009, 10:45 PM
If you've been told exactly what to expect. Why not tell everyone who is atleast still interest at Newtek what to expect? Its so wierd for them not to. They're not gaining customer confidence at all with this way. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thinking this at this time mid march.

While we are not under an NDA, Newtek has asked us as a courtesy not to share the info outside of the CORE forums. As far as what to expect, I'm referring to only to the first build which won't really matter to you if you're not a hardCORE member or not interested in beta testing the software. None of us have the first clue as to what additions we can see between the first build and the release candidate at the end of this year.
I don't see anything unusual about Newtek not telling everyone what to expect. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. They're getting blasted for not telling you more then they have, but if they tell you too much and one little feature ends up not making it in, then they're blasted for not delivering on something they announced.
And as far as not gaining customer confidence at all...well, several hundred of us feel differenty.

jin choung
03-14-2009, 11:56 PM
ugh...

the question that jumps to my mind is HOW LITTLE OF IT IS CODED such that we haven't seen a single thing since the aborted reveal campaign?

in the lack of any public information, i'm going to say very very little.

ack.

wtf. way to kill the momentum and excitement. alas, another one of those moves that make me bash my poor head against a desk and sigh "w...t...f... are you doing?... " and argue for it as much as you want, this "pay to know" is just completely off putting and imo suicidal. oh well... ack... soooooo frustrating.

barring any reveals before march 31 that totally overturns my current suspicion of what core currently is, i will wait until it is released before even thinking about committing money.

this is commerce. faith need not apply.

jin

p.s. seriously... wtf? .... ack.....

jin choung
03-14-2009, 11:58 PM
And as far as not gaining customer confidence at all...well, several hundred of us feel differenty.

many thousands of us don't.

yah got to have seen that one coming right? : )

jin

Andrew Clement
03-15-2009, 02:37 AM
I've been using LW since 2.0, and it's my app of choice unless I have to work with others.

I sat waiting for the countdown to finish for the reveal, then nothing. I actually found out through the Modo forum where the stream was.

I want Core to be an amazing new start, but Newtek has to give a little more before I commit. I was thinking about upgrading one of my licenses, but it feels like almost nothing is coded, and NT needs development cash. Feels like a risk. Are things going badly? How long until this is actually production ready? Cash is tight for everyone, and I'd rather wait until I see more.

Newtek?

inquisitive
03-15-2009, 03:20 AM
my speculation falls into 3 trains of thought...

1.newtek are super heads down busy trying to make that self imposed deadline of 31st march a reality for the release of core alpha/beta 0.1 and so don't want to waste time making inbetween videos if the dev is moving so fast that it'll look old even if released this week showing as video or 2...and remember the slap in the face 'some' people gave them for their initial video...twice shy maybe.

2.they are having development problems and it's going slow, so not much to show until they work out what's holding up the dev..re bugs etc..

3.newtek are looking to over deliver what people expect from the first beta release and are throwing in a load of cool stuff to take the sting out of the final spec sheets from modo 401, houdini 10 and 3dsmax 2010 which are all due around the same time.

pure speculation....as always!

Well that is why companies have marketing departments, so that department can do the marketing while the dev team is doing the programming. I am pro Newtek, but I dont see a benefit either to pay first with no additional info.

In this economy is not about saving $100 bucks now, but about using $395 now for more important things. If there is no immediate return on investment you are not saving anything (specially if you use your credit card).

AbnRanger
03-15-2009, 04:48 AM
While we are not under an NDA, Newtek has asked us as a courtesy not to share the info outside of the CORE forums. As far as what to expect, I'm referring to only to the first build which won't really matter to you if you're not a hardCORE member or not interested in beta testing the software. None of us have the first clue as to what additions we can see between the first build and the release candidate at the end of this year.
I don't see anything unusual about Newtek not telling everyone what to expect. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. They're getting blasted for not telling you more then they have, but if they tell you too much and one little feature ends up not making it in, then they're blasted for not delivering on something they announced.
And as far as not gaining customer confidence at all...well, several hundred of us feel differenty.Here's the thing...Newtek shouldn't be withholding ANY information AT THIS STAGE OF THE PROCESS. Once the first build is launched, that's another matter. But it's self-defeating to withhold from the public information that can help them decide whether it's worth it for them to join now or not...BEFORE THE DEADLINE. This is sillyness telling the public "We have more information for you...just not today." And then subsequently communicate.."Well, we've decided to give this information ONLY to those who have already put their money on the table thus far."
Jay, there are plenty of us who already use other programs (3ds Max 2010 is about to be released and this is shaping up to be the biggest release in its history...not sure if LW will even be in the picture for me after that), so upgrading LW is more of a "Leave It" proposition. Unless you do what you can to make customers like us WANT to "Take It" while the deal is on the table, withholding information while the deal is on, and only giving it to those that have already done so makes no appeal to me whatsoever.

prometheus
03-15-2009, 05:25 AM
Well for me..I will skip core out at this moment, to little information shown for me to decide if I want to join in, Ill probably get back to core at a much later stage...sadly.
and I donīt want to make last minutes decisions, I like to think it through some time before...thatīs me.

Right now my feelings are that I need to learn Houdini that already is at a state that core seems to take a couple of years to catch up to..once they do..I might jump in to core.

otherwise itīs all about using lw 9.6 and learning Houdini right now.

Michael

gordonrobb
03-15-2009, 05:49 AM
I'm sorry guys, but can I just bring this thread back on track since I started it.

I am neither anti Newtek, nor anti core. I am convinced that Core will be a fantastic new directionfor LW. An I loved the reveal, it seriously whetted my appatite.

I am a hobbiest that hopes to make some money from my hobby maybe.

I am willing to help fund Newteks development of Core (lets face it, that's what the upfront payment is). I am completely ok with it. I just want to know, in some outline, what I am paying for. I don't want to start paying now, for an application that will only benifit me in 2 years for example. I am more than willing to pay now for something that will give me an edge over what I can do now (or in Q4).

I was just expecting someone who knew, not who was specultating either negatively or positively, if we would be getting more information before 31st March. Don't anyone from Newtek frequent these forums.

I will wait, and if I get more, that I like, I will definately throw in my $395, if I don't I will add it tom my Easter Holiday fund. It's that simple.

Hrgiger, thanks for suggesting that we (non Hardcore members) here more of what is being said. I hope it works.

hrgiger
03-15-2009, 07:09 AM
simple.

Hrgiger, thanks for suggesting that we (non Hardcore members) here more of what is being said. I hope it works.

Sure. I havent' been trying to argue against the release of more information, I've just been trying to point out the important thing here is that Lightwave's next evolutionary step is CORE. They're are a lot of unknowns and the program is in too early of a state for Newtek just to lay out what exactly CORE is going to be like in Q4, but that doesn't change the fact that we need to move forward with it. And I say we because this is what the majority of LW users have wanted for some time now. The question is do you want this change or don't you? Rebuilding an entire application can't happen overnight and Jay has already mentioned that CORE is going to have a focus on modeling at first. That doesn't mean that we have another Modo. CORE is a complete application. It is being built as such so everything that's added to CORE is designed around the fact that it will have those other components that will share all information. CORE will be more then just a modeler at the end of this year but we dont' know how much more. Those are the FACTS. If that's not enough for you, Netek has asked you to wait until more information is available. If you feel that investing in that change, maybe the time is now to join the hardCore membership. It's a good price and you probably won't see it again. But I would suggest waiting until closer to March 31st, I'm sure there will be more information by then.
A lot of people seem to be saying 'Newtek, if you don't give me more info, I"m going to buy application x. I swear. I'm going to do it. I mean it.' A typical response. And maybe one that some people might make. But the grass is not always greener on the other side as I have found out myself. In th end, CORE will just have to speak for itself. Remember that we still have 9.6 to rely on as well for the short term.
I would like to see more on CORE myself but I can't help thinking that Newtek has to be cautious about what they release considering how much a lot of the community burns them everytime they make a marketing misstep.
Anyway, I'm done trying to convince anyone here. Sorry about the thread gordonrobb. You asked originally if there will be any more info on CORE before the 31st. I'm inclined to think that there will be.

gordonrobb
03-15-2009, 07:17 AM
I am really happy with LW, especially 9.6. I have no intention of going to another application (even if I could afford it :)).

I don't even have a probelm if all Core is in Q4 is a modeller, as long as its an improvement on 9.6's modeller.

I really wish that money was no object, and I could just give the $395, just can't justify it without a return that ismore than'being in at the begining.

I'll wait and see. Thanks for the info.

frantbk
03-15-2009, 07:39 AM
While we are not under an NDA, Newtek has asked us as a courtesy not to share the info outside of the CORE forums. As far as what to expect, I'm referring to only to the first build which won't really matter to you if you're not a hardCORE member or not interested in beta testing the software. None of us have the first clue as to what additions we can see between the first build and the release candidate at the end of this year.
I don't see anything unusual about Newtek not telling everyone what to expect. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. They're getting blasted for not telling you more then they have, but if they tell you too much and one little feature ends up not making it in, then they're blasted for not delivering on something they announced.
And as far as not gaining customer confidence at all...well, several hundred of us feel differenty.

Several hundred? is that enough to keep Lilghtwave's market place. How many Maya users were there when Maya was sold to autodesk? How many of those same users are still with Maya, but disappointed with Autodesk's pricing/subscription of Maya?
How many Softimage people dumped XSI when Autodesk bought Softimage? Many are still with these products because the end-user has too much invested in the product to just dump it. That still didn't stop the Maya/Softimage from being sold.
The whole point of the rewrite is to keep Lightwave with NT. Unless it's not, and NT is rewriting Core so it will be a better looking product for Autodesk to buy (For all of you who want to go crazy on this new statement - go crazy in front of a mirror and don't post).
Nobody wants Lightwave to fail, but some of us don't like the idea of being forced to pay for information. From the way you're talking your not really getting all of the information for the money spent. Because of this lack of info on the truly big picture of Core you'd better have a lot of beta's to test, or every beta had better have more then the same-old same-old tools to work with. IMO

thomascheng
03-15-2009, 07:41 AM
I think what is worrying everyone is that Newtek has completely gone dark and they don't give specific dates on when we can get more info. Instead of saying, more information will be reveal btw now and March 31, they should just say more info will be revealed on March 29th or whatever. They just doesn't inspire confidence without specifics and it just cause lots of speculation. I understand that the last screen grabs they did was pretty cool, but again, they need to setup a date for more information. They can kill all the speculation running around by just popping in here and saying we will have more info coming on ----insert time----. Instead I'm coming here on a daily basis trying to find out more info and if I don't, I start getting frustrated.

frantbk
03-15-2009, 07:49 AM
Sure. I havent' been trying to argue against the release of more information, I've just been trying to point out the important thing here is that Lightwave's next evolutionary step is CORE. They're are a lot of unknowns and the program is in too early of a state for Newtek just to lay out what exactly CORE is going to be like in Q4.

At this point do we need to know what new technology is going to be in Core, or do we want to know what direction of new technology NT plans to try and incorporate into Core?

Jay Roth said in the Core video that all of the tools in 9.6 will be in Core. Do we want all of the old tools in Core? Do we need all of the old tools in Core?

These question will not raise, or lower anyone's expectations of Core in the 4Q release. Answering these question will give someone a reason to spend the money, or not to spend the money on HardCore memebership. What does NT have to fear from that? :stumped:

frantbk
03-15-2009, 07:57 AM
I think what is worrying everyone is that Newtek has completely gone dark and they don't give specific dates on when we can get more info. Instead of saying, more information will be reveal btw now and March 31, they should just say more info will be revealed on March 29th or whatever. They just doesn't inspire confidence without specifics and it just cause lots of speculation. I understand that the last screen grabs they did was pretty cool, but again, they need to setup a date for more information. They can kill all the speculation running around by just popping in here and saying we will have more info coming on ----insert time----. Instead I'm coming here on a daily basis trying to find out more info and if I don't, I start getting frustrated.

Maybe they need to do what Luxology is doing. Do pre-release web-pages of what is in the beta's at this point; even if it is an old tools and explain if the tools works differently in Core than 9.6. You can't tell me going to an Object Oriented environment won't change some of the tools ability. Just having a deformer stack/history will change how the tool works in Core compared to 9.6. Surely the NT marketing department can muster up the effort.

hrgiger
03-15-2009, 08:10 AM
I don't even have a probelm if all Core is in Q4 is a modeller, as long as its an improvement on 9.6's modeller.



Considering that modeler got no improvement during the 9.x series, that's pretty much a given.

gordonrobb
03-15-2009, 08:18 AM
Considering that modeler got no improvement during the 9.x series, that's pretty much a given.

I appreciate that you're saying that. However, is Newtek saying that the modeller in Core in Q4 of this year will be an improvement on 9.6, or will it be 9.6's tools encorporated in new code. I know you can't asnwer this, but you get my point?

hrgiger
03-15-2009, 08:25 AM
Yeah, I get what you're saying but I'll leave that up to Newtek to answer. However, this is a brand new applicaiton. Dont' make the mistake of thinking that they're just taking 9.6's tools and incorporating them into CORE.

AbnRanger
03-15-2009, 08:36 AM
I'm not threatening to go elsewhere...I'm already there, but like many who use more than one application, the excitement of a brand new LW has been tempered by the whole concept of keeping the same community they appealed to with the original reveal, in the dark....unless you've ponied up the cash already.
Given what was communicated in the reveal, I understood CORE to be a full application already (just rough around the edges...to which the open beta would work those out over the next several months). I assumed much of what they added in the 9 series would've already been coded and implemented into CORE, as it is today. Now...with the tidbits of confusing information that has been given, I'm left to assume that it's only a modeler (no rendering, no animation or particles, etc) as of the 1st build. That's a huge difference, and there's no reason Newtek should have allowed it's LW community to wonder about this. This should have been made very clear from the start. Instead...to find out, you have to break out your credit/check card. Royal mistake, IMHO.

Sekhar
03-15-2009, 09:27 AM
The central limit theorem of CORE: every thread started with request for info will turn into a pointless squabble/attack that does everything but give that info. :)

hrgiger
03-15-2009, 10:04 AM
Jay Roth said in the Core video that all of the tools in 9.6 will be in Core. Do we want all of the old tools in Core? Do we need all of the old tools in Core?



As I said, I'm done trying to convince anyone of anything. However, this is the second time I've seen someone say this. Jay never said that all of the tools in 9.6 will be in CORE. THIS IS NOT A REWRITE OF 9.6. This really needs to be stressed.

frantbk
03-15-2009, 10:14 AM
As I said, I'm done trying to convince anyone of anything. However, this is the second time I've seen someone say this. Jay never said that all of the tools in 9.6 will be in CORE. THIS IS NOT A REWRITE OF 9.6. This really needs to be stressed.

I just re-listened to the Core melt-down video yesterday, and yes Jay Roth did say that all the tools people know in Lightwave would be in Core. That they might not be in the say place as before, but with the new replaceable UI you can move them around to suit your needs.

Go listen to the video again. If that has changed then NT needs to communicate that change to the general public. Jay Roth also stated followup video's of light, render, and animation would be shown. When will they be shown - Jay Roth didn't say in the video.

There needs to be more info on what is the real meaning about these generalized statements made during the Core melt-down video. :thumbsup:

frantbk
03-15-2009, 10:25 AM
Yeah, I get what you're saying but I'll leave that up to Newtek to answer. However, this is a brand new applicaiton. Dont' make the mistake of thinking that they're just taking 9.6's tools and incorporating them into CORE.


Yeah, I know what you're saying. Still many of the tools in 9.6 will be in Core in one form, or another form. If the tool is no longer the same as it is in 9.6 than is it a hybrid tool? or a complete rewrite with a whole different level of bugs to deal with? It the modo group having their way and NT is building action centers (or whatever they call them) so you have to combine tools as in modo?

If that is the route than many will not like Core because they don't like modo's workflow. Is the workflow in Core different, or the same as modo?

If it is the same as modo than why by Core when I can buy modo for $895.00? Do you see what I'm saying -silents is not the answer here for NT. There is too large a group of disappointed modo users that see Core as a way of having all of modo tools with animation. Animation that Lux has failed to deliver and seems to be unwilling to invest in until modo 501-601.

If Core ends-up being modo, than NT has a bigger problem with product identity - Core has no true identity. Core could be called modo-litewave core if NT isn't careful about separating Core's identity from modo.

biliousfrog
03-15-2009, 12:19 PM
I just re-listened to the Core melt-down video yesterday, and yes Jay Roth did say that all the tools people know in Lightwave would be in Core. That they might not be in the say place as before, but with the new replaceable UI you can move them around to suit your needs.

Go listen to the video again. If that has changed then NT needs to communicate that change to the general public. Jay Roth also stated followup video's of light, render, and animation would be shown. When will they be shown - Jay Roth didn't say in the video.

There needs to be more info on what is the real meaning about these generalized statements made during the Core melt-down video. :thumbsup:

They said that a lot of things will be in CORE, the issue is when. The reveal video was just to tell people what they intend to create - CORE...they haven't given any indication of when particular features will be added apart from saying that modeling tools will be the main focus for the first release. CORE v.1 could easily just be the ability to create a box and a sphere and render it with raytraced shadows...I'm sure that it will be more but NewTek wouldn't have lied if that's all it can do. The features that they want to add could take 10 years, there's nothing to say when they'll be implemented, just that they intend to add them to the application.

ramccombe
03-15-2009, 12:39 PM
Newtek also claimed that "CORE" has been being developed for the last 2 years behind the scenes. My question is what has that 2 years produced? I was under the impression the the bulk of the development was done. Now my impression may very well be the wrong one but that is what I gleaned from all the hype.

frantbk
03-15-2009, 12:54 PM
They said that a lot of things will be in CORE, the issue is when. The reveal video was just to tell people what they intend to create - CORE...they haven't given any indication of when particular features will be added apart from saying that modeling tools will be the main focus for the first release. CORE v.1 could easily just be the ability to create a box and a sphere and render it with raytraced shadows...I'm sure that it will be more but NewTek wouldn't have lied if that's all it can do. The features that they want to add could take 10 years, there's nothing to say when they'll be implemented, just that they intend to add them to the application.

NewTek doesn't have 10 years :ohmy:. I know what you are saying,..., but come on guys. This isn't 1988, this is 2009 where the minimum requirements are set much higher for Lightwave Core rewrite. NewTek isn't launching a program from scratch. Core is Lightwave, and as a rewrite Core doesn't have that kind of time to screw around with.

What the hey!! it seems many of you just want to keep saying Core will have nothing and be nothing upon release. why don't some of you try and brighten up your post with a game of what if!

It's simple, the game gos like this: What if Core included pie menus. What good is a pie menu? Well a pie menu would get rid of some of the endless drop down/popup menus that are used in 9.6. lightwave 9.6 has kinfe, cut, bandsaw, bandsaw Pro, quickcut 1,2,3, plus (I believe 5 other quickcut tools) . That comes to 12 tools that do about the same thing. Repackage it in a pie menu and give it the hot-key alt-shift-k and a new workflow enhancement is made.

Here is another example (hybrid): Lightwave has volume select tool. Select the volume you want. While the tool is still active right mouse button click, up pops a menu. Select cut, than hit left mouse to ok operation and you've made a cut in your object.

See not a hard game to play. :D :thumbsup:

frantbk
03-15-2009, 12:57 PM
Newtek also claimed that "CORE" has been being developed for the last 2 years behind the scenes. My question is what has that 2 years produced? I was under the impression the the bulk of the development was done. Now my impression may very well be the wrong one but that is what I gleaned from all the hype.


:dito: I was left with the same impression. That the engine for Core was already done and bug/beta testing was left. :twak: :lwicon: :twak:

hrgiger
03-15-2009, 05:47 PM
No Core has not been under development for two years. It was in the design process for two years.

jin choung
03-15-2009, 05:54 PM
No Core has not been under development for two years. It was in the design process for two years.

considering what little we've seen so far, i believe that.

but see, there are a LOT of fanboys who were saying it was UNDER DEVELOPMENT and that there will soon be a BIG REVEAL of a brand new COMPLETED (or nearly) application.

ugh... newtek needs to step up and MANAGE EXPECTATIONS. if fanboys are spreading false information, they have to fix that or continually earn the scorn of people who feel burned.

it may feel painful to correct overly positive rumors but it's common sense.

ack.

jin

ramccombe
03-15-2009, 06:46 PM
No Core has not been under development for two years. It was in the design process for two years.

I said my impressions may very well be wrong! None the less as Jin pointed out, I got that impression from somewhere and for that matter so did many other members. So clearly Newtek has NOT BEEN CLEAR! As far as I'm concerned if the current Core members, fanboys or what ever you wish to be called have nothing positive to contribute to the non Core member threads other than "there is cool stuff in the private Core thread" or any other digs, just shut up!!

ramccombe
03-15-2009, 07:19 PM
I have followed these treads started by Wavers that are not ready to sign up
and it seems to me that most of the discussion has been about getting some clarity from Newtek. Thus far there seems to be quite a few important unanswered questions. Now there has obviously been adequate info for the fanboys to pony up but just as obvious is the fact that many users are not clear and thus not ready to sign up. It seems to me if Newtek were genuinely interested in signing people up, they would try to lay these questions to rest. It also seems clear to me that this has yet to happen as demonstrated by these very threads. So to you "CORE" members, try not being so snarky and try to help answer these questions. Money is an issue for many and in some cases it is about principal. The fact that we are trying to get answers should not be an excuse for ridicule, things such as "it's all right there, what don't you understand?" To those people I say "F" off. Just because you are satisfied it does NOT mean we all are.

frantbk
03-15-2009, 09:26 PM
Completely different what If and f-off then I had expected, but it just shows how deep the need for information is. NewTek did say that they had researched the framework/QT for 2 years before any code was produced. Jay Roth has never said how long ago that 2 years of research was done, 2004, 2006? (to the general public).

Yet everyone keeps acting as if that 2 year span goes only back to 2007. Show me the proof that 2007 is the beginning of that time-frame. NewTek's been working on Core for a lot longer than 2007, so I'll say that 2005 is the beginning of Core development. NewTek couldn't deliver a beta in April if they were still working on the engine to drive Core - that's just commonsense.

JustBob
03-15-2009, 10:53 PM
Those of us that joined core have access to the core forum along with some very cool information.:thumbsup:

Greets from one who reads more than he posts.

I was hesitant to go "Hardcore" but I gave in on the 13th of this month and I do not have access to anything as yet. How long does it take for one to receive the email notice indicating account setup has been successful?

ramccombe
03-15-2009, 11:33 PM
Hi frantbk, I get the feeling you think my rant was directed at you and if that is the case please be assured it wasn't. I was referring to some of the responses I've read in other threads from "CORE" members to those on the fence. It was not specific to anyone. It does seem to me that there are quite a few people confused about this whole Core thing. Believe me I am interested in joining but I honestly don't what I will have by Q4. I love LightWave even though it's just a hobby to me but money is a little tight and frankly like I said I don't know what to expect. In terms of the starting date of Core development that was never an issue with me and I don't believe I eluded to a start date. I just got the impression as many have that 2 years of development was done already with the impression that is was, well let's just say, further along than it currently appears to be. Hell ready for beta? Think about where LightWave 9 was for those of us who worked on the beta, it was a fully functioning program, model, texture, animate and render. That is what I would expect from CORE but I don't have any evidence thus far it is that far along. Maybe I'm just stupid and this has been cleared up and I missed it but that would also require that many others missed it as well. In any case more info is needed. Some vids would also be nice. I also mentioned the the silence from Newtek has also been seen as a concern for other members maybe unjustified but there none the less. A little heads up from Newtek from time to time goes a long way. Anyway I did mean to attack you.

frantbk
03-16-2009, 07:09 AM
Hi frantbk, I get the feeling you think my rant was directed at you and if that is the case please be assured it wasn't. I was referring to some of the responses I've read in other threads from "CORE" members to those on the fence. It was not specific to anyone.

Don't waste anytime feeling that. I know who you were aiming your rant at, and it wasn't me. What I was trying to do with the what if was to generate some tools ideas to relieve some of the pressure everyone is feeling. I do agree with you about the HardCore members coming in an peeing on the fence sitters. the fact that more of them are coming in and screwing with us tells me that, possibly, no new information is coming to them and they are tired of sitting on their thumbs waiting for the beta. So why not come here and piss-around and piss people off ( Hrgiger is excluded from this list because he has been here since the beginning and is trying to add balance to the discussion).


It does seem to me that there are quite a few people confused about this whole Core thing. Believe me I am interested in joining but I honestly don't what I will have by Q4. I love LightWave even though it's just a hobby to me but money is a little tight and frankly like I said I don't know what to expect.

Yes money is tight for many, so I see your point. I think NT is being unreasonable about answering basic, general questions about Core while everyone is working through a recession. It is clear NT has adopted (at the wrong time) the attitude "if you can't pay, then you don't get to play along with Core 1.x ." I'm not saying people should be beta testers for free, or just owning a copy of Lightwave 9.x

With 800 HardCore members (mostly fanboys) NT could give them a copy of silo, or hexagon and call it Lightwave Core and they probably wouldn't know the difference (at this point). :ohmy: :devil:


In terms of the starting date of Core development that was never an issue with me and I don't believe I eluded to a start date. I just got the impression as many have that 2 years of development was done already with the impression that is was, well let's just say, further along than it currently appears to be.

Because of the lack of real information I see the start date being talked about because people are trying to figure out their level of expectation. You know - group one: lightwave core will be nothing more than modo-silo-hexagon on release. Core will be nothing more than a modeling program (not going to happen doom & gloom group one).

Group two: lightwave core will have all of the current (basic) tool sets that 9.6 has. That the more advanced functions of animation/dynamics tools will be in 9.6. lightwave Core's advanced animation/dynamics will be very basic because of the time it will take to workout some of the bugs, and they will be newer technology based.


Hell ready for beta? Think about where LightWave 9 was for those of us who worked on the beta, it was a fully functioning program, model, texture, animate and render. That is what I would expect from CORE but I don't have any evidence thus far it is that far along. Maybe I'm just stupid and this has been cleared up and I missed it but that would also require that many others missed it as well. In any case more info is needed.

Lightwave 9.x was a continence of a current product. No new engine was being built to support future technologies. You are right (in my view) Core will be a fully functioning program, model, texture, animate and render (unless NT really drops the ball). As I stated above it may not have some advanced features in animation/dynamics because of the new engine. I believe it will have a IK system.


Some vids would also be nice. I also mentioned the the silence from Newtek has also been seen as a concern for other members maybe unjustified but there none the less. A little heads up from Newtek from time to time goes a long way. Anyway I did mean to attack you.

I don't know why they've decided to take this route of culling their customer base and causing so much angst. By dividing everyone into two groups - HardCore v. non-HardCore members Nt has backed itself into a tight corner to deliver a good product in the 4Q of 09. If Core isn't shiny on delivery NT and the HardCore members will have a reversal of fortune with the non-HardCore members peeing on them for producing a piece of crap. The people that are having their fun now, at our expense, may not like the return at the end of 09.

What I have to say to the HardCore members :goodluck: with the beta testing boys, because you & NT have a lot riding on Core, and your abilities to produce something more than crap. :D

IMI
03-16-2009, 08:10 AM
Lightwave 9.x was a continence of a current product.

I have to say, that's the first time I ever saw LightWave compared to being able to being able to hold one's bowels in. :D

theo
03-16-2009, 11:04 AM
I have to say, that's the first time I ever saw LightWave compared to being able to being able to hold one's bowels in. :D

...or to refrain from sexual intercourse.

Perhaps, LW Core is the new abstinence?

frantbk
03-16-2009, 11:19 AM
I do agree with you about the HardCore members coming in an peeing on the fence sitters. the fact that more of them are coming in and screwing with us tells me that, possibly, no new information is coming to them and they are tired of sitting on their thumbs waiting for the beta. So why not come here and piss-around and piss people off ( Hrgiger is excluded from this list because he has been here since the beginning and is trying to add balance to the discussion).

One misused of a word and the franboy/trolls are here to play. Ramccombe is right about the HardCore members - HardCore membership now stands for NT-Trolls :tsktsk: in the general forum. :thumbsdow

adamredwoods
03-16-2009, 11:26 AM
I have to say, I like Modo's "trickle" of features, rather than NT's lack of information. NT showed quite a bit in their video, but now they need a little something to sustain the enthusiasm.

Silence usually causes people to move away from a software-- especially small software. Makes it feel like the programmers lost interest. But I know NewTek is not small, so they are hard at work. And silence is their modus operandi.

Chuck
03-16-2009, 11:57 AM
Greets from one who reads more than he posts.

I was hesitant to go "Hardcore" but I gave in on the 13th of this month and I do not have access to anything as yet. How long does it take for one to receive the email notice indicating account setup has been successful?

The 13th being last Friday, today is only the second business day since the offices are closed Saturday and Sunday. I note that your order was processed in accounting today and checking your forum status I found it had already been set for HardCORE status. If you have received an order confirmation email, that may be all that will be coming as far as notices, but in any case it looks like the setup took just one more business day after your order was placed.

Tonttu
03-16-2009, 12:29 PM
...or to refrain from sexual intercourse.

Perhaps, LW Core is the new abstinence?

Abstinence 2.0! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneida_Society#Male_continence)

Chuck
03-16-2009, 12:34 PM
Marketing has compiled the additional information that Jay has provided in the discussions in HardCORE and will be reviewing and distilling that into additions for the CORE/HardCORE public web pages. The compiled info is a 23-page document in raw form, for those curious. I expect this will take a few days to work through, and I don't know whether they might plan to add in stages as they have portions ready, or what. Maybe we can get Ben Vost, LightWave specialist of the Marketing group, to drop in on this thread and fill us all in.

The development team is working hard on CORE development, and when the team feels CORE is in the proper shape, more screenshots and videos will be forthcoming.

Just to be clear, CORE has indeed been two years in design. During that time there has been some amount of coding as well, as opportunities presented themselves. Beyond the coding done for prototyping purposes, some of this is already in service in shipping product: LightWave Rendition for Adobe Photoshop, for example, uses an early version of the CORE engine as its base, with LightWave rendering technologies integrated; while in LightWave v9.5 a limited CORE interface was implemented that allows LightWave to host and interact with the CORE plugin valkyrie.p, for Collada/FBX I/O. The Valkyrie project also integrated lwo and lws I/O support, meaning these are all covered for CORE. Collada and FBX both will be extended to further functionality than they have been so far for v9.5/v9.6, and additional geometry/animation format I/O support will be developed in Valkyrie as we go along.

kfinla
03-16-2009, 12:40 PM
Thanks for the update Chuck.. looking forward to the new material.

frantbk
03-16-2009, 12:48 PM
:dito: Thanks Chuck for that bit of information. I'm looking forward to this information also. :thumbsup:

DennisVR
03-16-2009, 12:51 PM
finally some info.

I really think Newtek should do a weekly, bi-weekly or even monthly update to the public. Cause leaving people in the unknown isn't a good idea.

frantbk
03-16-2009, 12:51 PM
I have to say, I like Modo's "trickle" of features, rather than NT's lack of information. NT showed quite a bit in their video, but now they need a little something to sustain the enthusiasm.

maybe I'm reading the webpage wrong, but it also keeps saying there is something bigger yet to be released.


Silence usually causes people to move away from a software-- especially small software. Makes it feel like the programmers lost interest. But I know NewTek is not small, so they are hard at work. And silence is their modus operandi.

I know some people are already asking this question in their head. Will the information be out before the deadline? I thought I'd say it out loud because others are thinking it. :D :devil:

gordonrobb
03-16-2009, 01:56 PM
Chuck, thanks for dropping by and giving some info.

It would be great if we had something before the 31st.

In my opinion, it would be better not added to any thread, but posed where people can read it, other wise there will be bound to be all sorts of flaming going on, as you can't please everyone.

I look forward, with bated credit card, to more information.

biliousfrog
03-16-2009, 02:24 PM
For the first time I'm actually quite interested in CORE...Thanks for the info Chuck, that small post has shed more light on the whole project than several hundred posts in previous threads.

I'd also like to see a sticky'd thread with all of the official CORE info, locked to prevent the info getting swamped with speculation and hype...just facts on what membership gets you, what CORE is going to be within the first release and how far things have come so far. We don't need marketing jargon and waffle, just solid, straight talking facts...exactly what you just did.

I spotted a plugin called valkyrie.p when I installed 9.6 and wondered what it was...so it's to help with CORE integration?...to allow people to use both apps until CORE can become a replacement?

Thanks again Chuck

*Pete*
03-16-2009, 02:46 PM
I appreciate that you're saying that. However, is Newtek saying that the modeller in Core in Q4 of this year will be an improvement on 9.6, or will it be 9.6's tools encorporated in new code. I know you can't asnwer this, but you get my point?

well, i cant answer this either, since im in the hardcore group...

but ill tell you this, most of the information available in the HC forums is NOT new...but it is more specified and detailed comfirmation on what we will get, how it will work, what is the potential etc etc...

so if you are really intrested in finding out what CORE will be Q1-Q4, i suggest you find all posts by Jayroth, read them carefully and with an optimistic take on it.

a lot of things are, as i said, already been explained but it has all drowned in the noise when people keep repeating the same questions, missing the answers, speculating on their own etc etc.

at HC forums you might find a lot of intresting information, for sure...but, most of it is already available for you...if you read between the lines.

Chuck
03-16-2009, 03:26 PM
For the first time I'm actually quite interested in CORE...Thanks for the info Chuck, that small post has shed more light on the whole project than several hundred posts in previous threads.

I'd also like to see a sticky'd thread with all of the official CORE info, locked to prevent the info getting swamped with speculation and hype...just facts on what membership gets you, what CORE is going to be within the first release and how far things have come so far. We don't need marketing jargon and waffle, just solid, straight talking facts...exactly what you just did.

As noted in my previous post, Marketing will be adding to the info presented on the CORE/HardCORE pages, and most of the info is from a very straightforward q & a between Jay and the HardCORE group, centered on the Q1 beta build and what to expect from it. They've gathered everything Jay has said on the forums in both the public and the private sections, so they should be able to make the CORE web pages pretty comprehensive with regard to the info offered to date.


I spotted a plugin called valkyrie.p when I installed 9.6 and wondered what it was...so it's to help with CORE integration?...to allow people to use both apps until CORE can become a replacement?


As I said above, valkyrie.p is an I/O plugin for 3D mesh and animation file types. Yes, the data interchange facilities it provides can help people use both apps until such time as CORE is a full replacement. However, it helps precisely the same way with integrating either LightWave or CORE (since it's the same plugin in both applications) with any other pipeline applications that support Collada and FBX, or for that matter any format we add to Valkyrie's arsenal.

Providing Collada and FBX I/O for LightWave was the objective for developing Valkyrie. Coding it to the CORE standards and adding a CORE interface in LW to host it was done to make the most efficient use of our coding resources - write the plugin once, use it in both the existing application and in the new one when it came along.

IMI
03-16-2009, 05:47 PM
a lot of things are, as i said, already been explained but it has all drowned in the noise when people keep repeating the same questions, missing the answers, speculating on their own etc etc.


You have the people who are interested enough in CORE to have looked up the information and learned about it and made a decision. Personally, I think the CORE info on the main LW page is a little confusing and needs to be read a few times to get it, but it's still there in full. And of course there's also the info Newtek itself has put out there, which is more than people seem to be seeing.
So, like in almost all aspects of life, those interested in something manage to learn about it. I was interested, I read about it, asked a question or two, understood it, enough said. Case closed. You buy or you don't.

Then you have the people who just want to argue about it all. Not sure if they don't actually understand what's been written and said, or if they just want to pretend to be "victimized" by the Evil Dr. NewTek and his HardCORE Evil Minions, so they have one more excuse to rant and whine in public. In any event, they frequently refuse to accept straight up answers from not only members here, but staff as well. You can quote web pages and posts 'til you're blue in the face...err... fingers, and still, the information is rejected as mere speculation. *shrug*

Then there's your third group, the "armchair NewTek marketing specialists" who just can't accept NT's decision to handle it as they have, and go on long wordy rampages to try to convince everyone they're getting shafted.

Then there are those aforementioned HardCORE Evil Minions, like you, Pete - the fanboys and the tormentors who have found a new purpose in life, to do their best to aggravate the Non-CORE's. I bet you have a special forum there where you all make fun of the rest of us too. But, as has been predicted, you will fall from grace one day, and it will be a long fall indeed when CORE fails miserably. :rolleyes:

Pray then, that you are accepted back into the community proper and not burned at the stake as the witches you are. :devil:

jin choung
03-16-2009, 06:25 PM
great. then i hope newtek is satisfied with the few hundred already signed up cuz the rest of us need more and won't jump till we get it.

and we will not be corraled into paying for basic information.

massage that fact however way you want, right now, that's what it looks like to many of us. where the privelege to know what we're buying comes with an entrance fee.

f that.
------------------------------------------------------------------

this other valid group is a group that has read what has been revealed and to whom it is NOT ENOUGH.

if newtek shrugs at this - fine. we'll just sit on our cash until information is available. it's their ball to drop.

jin

IMI
03-16-2009, 06:36 PM
great. then i hope newtek is satisfied with the few hundred already signed up cuz the rest of us need more and won't jump till we get it.

and we will not be corraled into paying for basic information.

massage that fact however way you want, right now, that's what it looks like to many of us. where the privelege to know what we're buying comes with an entrance fee.

f that.

------------------------------------------------------------------

this other valid group is a group that has read what has been revealed and to whom it is NOT ENOUGH.

if newtek shrugs at this - fine. we'll just sit on our cash until information is available. it's their ball to drop.

jin


Well if that was a response to what I wrote, I assure you it was largely tongue-in-cheek. Actually, at one point I thought about you while I was writing it, which is why I included the "convince everyone they're getting shafted" part, which is something you've not done, while others have.

Yes, you in particular are part of that other group who do like LW, and do want to see it succeed, and do hope it achieves the functionality, versatility and greatness it deserves, but are apprehensive and maybe even somewhat disappointed in the way this is being handled. Your concerns are valid and justified.

My response was more towards certain people who shall remain nameless who seem to try to find CORE threads just for the sake of spreading their dissent and strange and misplaced paranoia.

In any event though, I'm still not understanding what further information is missing. The Prez of NT himself even outright stated this is the way it is, take it or leave it.
I can understand *wanting* to know more, I can understand feeling frustrated for NT that they may be losing allot of customers by not putting it all on the table at once, but I also have to understand that it's theirs to do with as they see fit.

jin choung
03-16-2009, 06:56 PM
In any event though, I'm still not understanding what further information is missing. The Prez of NT himself even outright stated this is the way it is, take it or leave it.

i agree. and many of us are leaving it. i'm assuming they would rather otherwise.

in that case, i'm saying we have not been PROPERLY SOLD. and having been drawn in by a semi-successful reveal campaign, we also feel somewhat that our time was completely fing wasted.

draw us in and then "money please" before we give you any more info otherwise, behold dead silence for a month... even though you've said more info is imminent. wtf.... that's just awful awful awful awful strategy.


I can understand *wanting* to know more, I can understand feeling frustrated for NT that they may be losing allot of customers by not putting it all on the table at once, but I also have to understand that it's theirs to do with as they see fit.

it is. but their unfortunate campaign has been the equivalent of a big neon sign that screams LIVE NUDE GIRLS and you go inside and it's a bunch of chicks walking around covered head to foot in ski gear, trench coats, burkas and ugg boots.

and then you have the audacity of someone going around and saying, if you REALLY want to see something, pony up for the champaign room.

and honestly, i am pretty completely expecting to find that the champaign room will either be filled with fully clothed chicks and/or naked heffers (if you follow the analogy that far)... and that's why they wanted you to pay before you saw anything.

makes you want to punch something in the face.

jin

IMI
03-16-2009, 07:04 PM
makes you want to punch something in the face.

jin

Well, I don't know, I don't get passionate about LightWave to that extreme. ;)

Nice analogy - the strip club. :thumbsup:

If I see a chick there with yellow and black striped pasties I think I'm gonna lose it. :D

jin choung
03-16-2009, 07:05 PM
If I see a chick there with yellow and black striped pasties I think I'm gonna lose it. :D

eww...

on second thought, as my father always said... a pasty's a pasty.....

jin

TimothyB
03-16-2009, 07:09 PM
Has there been any new info????

Though, even if there was, who would know by the way things have been handled so far.

The only additional info after the countdown was a thread showing the polycount, but that's not even a sticky, only a thread titled "More from the CORE..." that can easily be overlooked as another millionth thread asking for more info.

I was checking everyday so I wouldn't miss anything, it just too much. Why don't they create a thread sticky with a date in the title when it was last updated so we know there's nothing new?

So much for the countdown, so much for the additional videos as we come close to the March deadline. I'm still sore I wasted so much of my time watching that countdown and all day as it fell apart and just by a small chance a few got the new link to the vid that was over quickly, but leaving most of us thinking nothing happened yet for hours.

hrgiger
03-16-2009, 07:10 PM
Well, to use your analogy, there's usually very little free about a strip club unless you just want to sit back and watch others have fun. You still have to pay to get in the door in most cases.

the3dwiz
03-16-2009, 07:16 PM
I agree 100% with jin! Strange, strange strategy NT is taking! It will not make many friends in the end! I for myself feel disapointed and drawn away by this marketing strategy. I will probably not spend the 395.- even if Nt comes out with some new Infos. But as far as i know, there was only some Question and answers.

hrgiger
03-16-2009, 08:00 PM
I will probably not spend the 395.- even if Nt comes out with some new Infos. But as far as i know, there was only some Question and answers.

Answers are not info now?

jin choung
03-16-2009, 09:02 PM
Well, to use your analogy, there's usually very little free about a strip club unless you just want to sit back and watch others have fun. You still have to pay to get in the door in most cases.

analogy doesn't extend that far cuz it would be one ludicrous helluva cover charge then.

jin

thomascheng
03-16-2009, 09:13 PM
Thanks Chuck, but maybe you can get marketing to tell us the date the info will be posted?

KevinL
03-16-2009, 09:22 PM
Well, I finally decided not to join CORE for now. If it does something spectacular, I might pop for the additional 100.00 for joining later. I know Jay said it might not be appropriate for some... but I am somewhat puzzled why they didn't go for a cash influx :)

I'm putting money into a wireless mic system and upgrading the computer. Plus there is so much I do not have mad skills in yet....

So serene. now that I know.
Kevin L

IMI
03-16-2009, 10:03 PM
... but I am somewhat puzzled why they didn't go for a cash influx :)




It wouldn't surprise me at all if what they actually *wanted* at first, at least, are the real hardcore (pun intended) LW fans and lovers.

That way they start off with a relatively small group of people who are there for the love of the product and who want to be a part of something. People who will be more likely to be actively participating in the development through their feedback directly to the company, who will be less likely to complain, or just download the beta and run off quietly with it, never contributing any insights or suggestions or feedback.

And for that they get a considerable discount.
Could be NT wants it this way, rather than a huge number of users to manage, many of whom may be dissatisfied.

As it gets closer to completion, more info will be released, making it look better and better to the undecided. And they'll be paying more for it, too.
Could be they've got plenty of cash for the development and really aren't concerned about getting as many in there at first as possible. As they say, too many cooks spoil the broth. Possibly it's better to have a kitchen full of happy cooks, too, who are in it more for the development aspect than what the actual product can do for them yet.

And as I already suggested, the longer people wait, the better it actually is for NT, as they then are buying licenses at a considerably higher rate.

Sekhar
03-16-2009, 11:30 PM
It wouldn't surprise me at all if what they actually *wanted* at first, at least, are the real hardcore (pun intended) LW fans and lovers.

That way they start off with a relatively small group of people who are there for the love of the product and who want to be a part of something. People who will be more likely to be actively participating in the development through their feedback directly to the company, who will be less likely to complain, or just download the beta and run off quietly with it, never contributing any insights or suggestions or feedback.

And for that they get a considerable discount.
Could be NT wants it this way, rather than a huge number of users to manage, many of whom may be dissatisfied.

As it gets closer to completion, more info will be released, making it look better and better to the undecided. And they'll be paying more for it, too.
Could be they've got plenty of cash for the development and really aren't concerned about getting as many in there at first as possible. As they say, too many cooks spoil the broth. Possibly it's better to have a kitchen full of happy cooks, too, who are in it more for the development aspect than what the actual product can do for them yet.

And as I already suggested, the longer people wait, the better it actually is for NT, as they then are buying licenses at a considerably higher rate.
Yeah, it's comfy to just have the fans, but my worry is that it leads to groupthink. I mean there're folks here who'd cheer wildly if Jay sneezes and thank profusely if Chuck waves. Obviously they don't represent all who signed up, but still I think those of us on the fence can help hugely (and not just with the $395) because we don't kowtow.

I like 9.6 a lot and love what NT has done so far, so I have full confidence in NT delivering in Q4. But that doesn't mean they can diss the supporters who just want full info (I know the info is all there, but let's not go there). And anyway as Chuck said, I'm sure we'll get all the answers we need soon.

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 03:10 AM
While we are not under an NDA, Newtek has asked us as a courtesy not to share the info outside of the CORE forums. As far as what to expect, I'm referring to only to the first build which won't really matter to you if you're not a hardCORE member or not interested in beta testing the software. None of us have the first clue as to what additions we can see between the first build and the release candidate at the end of this year.
I don't see anything unusual about Newtek not telling everyone what to expect. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. They're getting blasted for not telling you more then they have, but if they tell you too much and one little feature ends up not making it in, then they're blasted for not delivering on something they announced.
And as far as not gaining customer confidence at all...well, several hundred of us feel differenty.

hrgiger is full of crap. He ain't got any more info than we do. He bought into this shannanigan since day one and he is still leading the cheers. The only info we have is whats written in the CORE public forum which obviously is not enough and hrgiger and his bunch of merry cheerleaders may continue to be critical of people that want more facts but that aint going to change the fact that more info is needed. Speculations is all we have in this forums, speculations by the people sitting on the fence, speculations by the cheerleaders and even speculations by Newtek that seems to have no clue on how this lack of information is going to affect them in the long term. Until I get true reveling facts from Newtek and only Newtek, I will remain on the fence waiting for the sun to shine and I will not paint the sunshine in, Newtek will have to do that.

the3dwiz
03-17-2009, 03:31 AM
@hrgiger. Have u seen something with ur own eyes? Rotation of a high poly object, manipulation of a Highpoly object? Sculping? What is possible, what to expect? Is it realy so advanced, so top secret that nobody may know? Sorry, but NT is only cocking with water, like anybody else!

IMI
03-17-2009, 03:40 AM
Yeah, HR, pony up. It's time to stop hiding behind your Evil facade and deliver the goods. :rolleyes:


*runs off to gather up the pitchforks and torches*

hrgiger
03-17-2009, 03:54 AM
hrgiger is full of crap. He ain't got any more info than we do. He bought into this shannanigan since day one and he is still leading the cheers.

Your grace is without bounds, truly. And yes, I know more then you do. As do all the hardCORE members. As far as I know, one person has asked for a refund, not because there wasn't any relavent info in the CORE forums, but simply because he wasn't hearing what he wanted to hear or it wasn't moving as fast as his personal tastes could stomach. I've only echoed some of the sentiments that Newtek has told us, that if you're a person that needs to know a complete feature list or everything that's going to be in the program, then a hardCORE membership might not be for you at this time.
I'm not sure how you think I'm being critical of those who want more facts. I've already stated that I understood your position and have already suggested in the hardCORE forums that whatever Newtek share with us next, that they share publicly so that as many users as possible can take advantage of the lower introductory pricing if they wish to do that. Perhaps it is your reading skills that are full of crap?
The fact is, there hasn't been a ton of information up to this point for them to share with you. As I said, we have been told pretty much what to expect for the Q1 release and not much beyond that. We know some things that are coming but have no exact timetables. So probably not all the info you are looking for but again, still more then you currently know. That's what I know and presumably, that's what Newtek is about to post on the public webpage.
As far as buying into this from day one...Well, you must not be a longtime lightwave user to be so hesitant to change. A lot of us have wanted Newtek to make this move for many years. To some of us, the reveal was actually about what Newtek meant it to be, an announcement. That Lightwave was starting over and here's how they were going to do it. I, as do many others, feel this venture is something worth investing in. On a personal note, my job is just as unsecure as many others are now in this economy, $100 is $100 and I felt like it was best to buy in now and pay less rather then more later(plus guarantee the same price next year). I love that everyone here is assuming that it must be sheer fanboy-ness that would incline someone to buy in before they knew what they were getting. The fact is, I'm invested in Lightwave and I dont' see a single better alternative out there without paying substantial more money. Either way, I believe CORE is a product that Newtek can deliver on. We all have our reasons for upgrading, so how about not being so critical of those that have?

jin choung
03-17-2009, 04:19 AM
It wouldn't surprise me at all if what they actually *wanted* at first, at least, are the real hardcore (pun intended) LW fans and lovers.

i doubt it. the whole thing looks like furious backpedaling to me. a cash grab gone wrong. "we got enough to show right?" "eh? we don't have enough to show?" "we're gonna have enough soon right?" "no?" "whu?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
as i say elsewhere, they are working on IMPLEMENTING IT right now... how much input can they possibly take into consideration? it's hard enough to lay out a coherent plan of development with sensible milestones, nevermind constant changes according to the comments of the hardcore - are they really binding themselves to hitting a MOVING TARGET? ESPECIALLY when it comes down to fundamental software architecture, structure and design. if THAT is not nailed down already and is subject to user comments at this point, they're already doomed!

if they were at alpha or beta, that's one thing. but they're putting together the first draft and somehow a circlejerk of cheerleaders is gonna make a big impact?

yeah.... would it be skeptical of me to think that's... ehhhh... optimistic?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

and imo, it's looking like it's not going to be much of a deal.

if it's as little developed as i think it is, as it will probably show itself to be *IF* something is released march 31st, as it will probably be circa what they are calling 1.0 in 4th quarter... it really might pay to wait until 2.0 or 3.

we'll find out soon enough but it really might've behooved them to wait until things were more... DONE! i mean, what good is it gonna do if an early highly unfinished version comes out and everybody starts bashing it.

and if this really WAS a cash grab cuz they needed the funds, some more openness with the community instead of this kinda bs faux razzle dazzle would have been far less off putting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

again, all that might sound a little harsh but i just can't tolerate the positive spin without any more info.

you can't have it both ways.

jin

the3dwiz
03-17-2009, 04:43 AM
Lets say it this way. Pis... in a gass and sell it to me as expensive wine makes me angry! Advertising a glass of water and sel a glas of water may make me maby buy, if im thirsty!Its the same here with this Marketing mess!
Lets face it. Most of the people who allready are Hardcore where expecting more than they geting now! Their expectations where mostly Sky high. ---> Go read the Core tread!!!
Only my opinion.

IMI
03-17-2009, 04:45 AM
i doubt it. the whole thing looks like furious backpedaling to me. a cash grab gone wrong.


Well in all honesty I don't really have much of an opinion about it one way or the other, and what I posted was just my part of engaging in the speculation, just for its own sake. I'm not convinced my speculation was necessarily way off target, but it doesn't matter much to me anyway. It's just fun. :)

Personally, I'm rather apathetic about it. Or more accurately, my current financial situation necessitates I *try* to be apathetic about it. ;)

Honestly, I'm more upset about what was promised...err... suggested would be in the LW 9 run which got scrapped, and the things that outright don't work as advertised, and that it appears all further efforts will be directed towards CORE.

IMI
03-17-2009, 04:55 AM
Lets face it. Most of the people who allready are Hardcore where expecting more than they geting now! Their expectations where mostly Sky high. --->

You say that with such certainty.
I can only think of one example where someone publicly stated his dissatisfaction and he got a refund. Obviously I don't know who all the HardCORE members are, but I don't see those who I am aware of complaining.
Actually the opposite seems to be true - most of the complaints appear to be coming from those who might want in, but are apprehensive.
Equally, from my perspective, it appears those who joined most certainly knew what they were buying into and had realistic expectations. If the handful I'm aware of are any measure of the whole, that is.
Otherwise I'd expect the forums here to be flooded with HardCORE members screaming out their displeasure for all the world to hear.

Cageman
03-17-2009, 04:57 AM
My expectations lies within the architecture rather than what NT may squeeze into CORE on Q1 and Q4.

Architecture is KEY to be able to take a software from a to b, no matter what features you have planned to throw in. And as far as the architecture goes, are there really any questions about it?

the3dwiz
03-17-2009, 05:00 AM
I did not say every! Most! Have u followed the Core tread? I have! (regreting now to have wastet that much time)
And its not as a attack on those who have allready made Hardcore! Its more a crit on the way NT is handling this baby!

the3dwiz
03-17-2009, 05:05 AM
Jup, every not well programmed plugin will make Core crash, exactly like what happened with the early max versions. Because they are now fully integrated in the core. Not shure about that, but its a possibilit.

A Mejias
03-17-2009, 05:07 AM
i doubt it. the whole thing looks like furious backpedaling to me. a cash grab gone wrong. "we got enough to show right?" "eh? we don't have enough to show?" "we're gonna have enough soon right?" "no?" "whu?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
as i say elsewhere, they are working on IMPLEMENTING IT right now... how much input can they possibly take into consideration? it's hard enough to lay out a coherent plan of development with sensible milestones, nevermind constant changes according to the comments of the hardcore - are they really binding themselves to hitting a MOVING TARGET? ESPECIALLY when it comes down to fundamental software architecture, structure and design. if THAT is not nailed down already and is subject to user comments at this point, they're already doomed!

if they were at alpha or beta, that's one thing. but they're putting together the first draft and somehow a circlejerk of cheerleaders is gonna make a big impact?

yeah.... would it be skeptical of me to think that's... ehhhh... optimistic?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

and imo, it's looking like it's not going to be much of a deal.

if it's as little developed as i think it is, as it will probably show itself to be *IF* something is released march 31st, as it will probably be circa what they are calling 1.0 in 4th quarter... it really might pay to wait until 2.0 or 3.

we'll find out soon enough but it really might've behooved them to wait until things were more... DONE! i mean, what good is it gonna do if an early highly unfinished version comes out and everybody starts bashing it.

and if this really WAS a cash grab cuz they needed the funds, some more openness with the community instead of this kinda bs faux razzle dazzle would have been far less off putting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

again, all that might sound a little harsh but i just can't tolerate the positive spin without any more info.

you can't have it both ways.

jin



I said pretty much the same thing a few days after the big "reveal."

Instead of announcing the new LightWave plans days after releasing LW 9.6, they should have continued to work on CORE in secret until they had something more substantial to show. Oh, maybe something that could do basic "Model, Animate, and Render." Then they could have done the big reveal at SIGGRAPH and sell the Hard CORE (open beta) then and release a more mature and complete CORE v1.0 in Q1 2010 (LW 10 in 2010 get it?). In the mean time they could have done a few more 9.x updates to help in the 9.x to CORE 1.0 transition.

But what we have now is truly a vaporware sale. And with the state of software licensing, it wouldn't ever have to actually do anything and they could still keep our money.

If these economic times weren't so tough I would have plopped my money down already. But they are as they are and NT really should be more sensitive to that.

IF they can do what they say they think they can do, then it's a good deal.

A Mejias
03-17-2009, 05:15 AM
You say that with such certainty.
I can only think of one example where someone publicly stated his dissatisfaction and he got a refund. Obviously I don't know who all the HardCORE members are, but I don't see those who I am aware of complaining.
Actually the opposite seems to be true - most of the complaints appear to be coming from those who might want in, but are apprehensive.
Equally, from my perspective, it appears those who joined most certainly knew what they were buying into and had realistic expectations. If the handful I'm aware of are any measure of the whole, that is.
Otherwise I'd expect the forums here to be flooded with HardCORE members screaming out their displeasure for all the world to hear.

Well didn't they have to agree to an NDA? So I don't think we are going to hear much of anything from them. Plus there may be victim shame. When one is too embarrassed to admit they've been abused and keep quite. ;)

But seriously it is pretty sad that there is little or no new info over a month later after all the promises of said info.

IMI
03-17-2009, 05:18 AM
I did not say every! Most! Have u followed the Core tread? I have!

Well even if you say "most" it's still wrong. :P

Yeah, I've followed the Core thread(s). Are you trying to say there's information in there to support your allegation that "most" HardCORE members are dissatisfied?

IMI
03-17-2009, 05:20 AM
Well didn't they have to agree to an NDA?



There is no official NDA (yet), just a request to keep quiet for a while.

A really pissed off and dissatisfied HardCORE member might not be inclined to honor that request.

the3dwiz
03-17-2009, 05:44 AM
I just say, everyone speculating on a program they not realy have seen doing one thing and not have been able to try for themself. So none can say anything about it! Not the HardCore nor the non HardCore users. And the ones that can (NT) dont doo so!!! Yes, yes, i know. now u will say,they do in the hardcore forums. But then i ask u have u seen a video or a presentation of Core in use???? I think you have not! (Exept the Reviel Video)

IMI
03-17-2009, 06:02 AM
I just say, everyone speculating on a program they not realy have seen doing one thing and not have been able to try for themself. So none can say anything about it! Not the HardCore nor the non HardCore users. And the ones that can (NT) dont doo so!!! Yes, yes, i know. now u will say,they do in the hardcore forums. But then i ask u have u seen a video or a presentation of Core in use???? I think you have not! (Exept the Reviel Video)

Whatever.
I think you lost sight of whatever it was you were trying to say.
I was only responding to the part where you said,


"Lets face it. Most of the people who allready are Hardcore where expecting more than they geting now! "


You don't know what they're "getting", so you can't make the sweeping generalization that they were expecting more than what they've received. And unless you know all of them personally, you don't know what they were expecting.
From what I've read, most of the people who joined were well aware of what they were getting, and only expect NT to deliver what they promise in terms of the HardCORE deal and the final release.

the3dwiz
03-17-2009, 06:29 AM
Not realy, only on intention in a sensless fight. :)
From your last message i read (between the words:devil:), that many of the Hardcore members are coders or very well aware of programming. Because most facts that are now by now are the Framework of Core, that it is programmed in c++ and the ability for 3party dev. to use the same devkit as Nt.
Im a artist, so it not realy interests me what code is inside my tool! It has to do its duty!
You know, because i can hold a pencil im still not Leonardo D.:D
Code is just code! Its the People who write the code that make the differece.

theo
03-17-2009, 09:42 AM
But what we have now is truly a vaporware sale. And with the state of software licensing, it wouldn't ever have to actually do anything and they could still keep our money.

If these economic times weren't so tough I would have plopped my money down already. But they are as they are and NT really should be more sensitive to that.


First you state LW Core is vaporware and then you turn around and state if times weren't tough you would have plopped your money down already for it.

This hardly seems a fair attack on NT.

I fail to comprehend the outcry here. The latest version of LW includes incredible updates encapsulating practically two years of free releases which means any requirement for the latest platform is simply to be in the mosh pit surfing closest to the beat.

They need to raise cash on the new platform which has been in the works for some time. Understandable statement if brains work well.

They have made it possible for some folks to make a decision with their credit card to use the latest platform in a privileged manner with all the accompanying risks and rewards that goes along with this process.

They don't need to hype and drive the sale to folks who tend to be tentative or tight. This type of sale is market specific and is not designed to appeal to everyone.

So, if the current process doesn't appeal to you just wait until the actual release. How hard is this really?

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 09:48 AM
Whatever.
I think you lost sight of whatever it was you were trying to say.
I was only responding to the part where you said,


You don't know what they're "getting", so you can't make the sweeping generalization that they were expecting more than what they've received. And unless you know all of them personally, you don't know what they were expecting.
From what I've read, most of the people who joined were well aware of what they were getting, and only expect NT to deliver what they promise in terms of the HardCORE deal and the final release.

I can assure you that up to now they haven't got jack s___t. No more than the people sitting on the fence. Oh yeah they have there own little forum where they could cheer each other along while they wait for the promise Q1 release. Maybe they will get it on Q2, April Fool's Day. Now that would be Newtek making a statement.

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 10:01 AM
i doubt it. the whole thing looks like furious backpedaling to me. a cash grab gone wrong. "we got enough to show right?" "eh? we don't have enough to show?" "we're gonna have enough soon right?" "no?" "whu?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
as i say elsewhere, they are working on IMPLEMENTING IT right now... how much input can they possibly take into consideration? it's hard enough to lay out a coherent plan of development with sensible milestones, nevermind constant changes according to the comments of the hardcore - are they really binding themselves to hitting a MOVING TARGET? ESPECIALLY when it comes down to fundamental software architecture, structure and design. if THAT is not nailed down already and is subject to user comments at this point, they're already doomed!

if they were at alpha or beta, that's one thing. but they're putting together the first draft and somehow a circlejerk of cheerleaders is gonna make a big impact?

yeah.... would it be skeptical of me to think that's... ehhhh... optimistic?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

and imo, it's looking like it's not going to be much of a deal.

if it's as little developed as i think it is, as it will probably show itself to be *IF* something is released march 31st, as it will probably be circa what they are calling 1.0 in 4th quarter... it really might pay to wait until 2.0 or 3.

we'll find out soon enough but it really might've behooved them to wait until things were more... DONE! i mean, what good is it gonna do if an early highly unfinished version comes out and everybody starts bashing it.

and if this really WAS a cash grab cuz they needed the funds, some more openness with the community instead of this kinda bs faux razzle dazzle would have been far less off putting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

again, all that might sound a little harsh but i just can't tolerate the positive spin without any more info.

you can't have it both ways.

jin

It seems that you and A Mejias are two of the ones that are actually seen your way through this cloud of smoke and mirrors that had fallen upon the lightwave community. Since the beginning this was a community that was very loyal to Newtek and fellow members. A community whose members use to go out of their way to help each other out. Here we are at each other throats. The sad part is that this was all brought about by Newtek themselves and the way the marketing department has handle this.

Cageman
03-17-2009, 10:06 AM
I can assure you that up to now they haven't got jack s___t. No more than the people sitting on the fence.

You couldn't be more wrong with that statement... but you are, of course, free to think and express whatever you want, but don't pass of your "knowledge" as actual fact.

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 10:08 AM
Your grace is without bounds, truly. And yes, I know more then you do. As do all the hardCORE members.

You are absolutely without shame. Read your own statement. You Know Nothing. Certaintly no more than the rest of us. For some reason You Just Think You Do.

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 10:10 AM
You couldn't be more wrong with that statement... but you are, of course, free to think and express whatever you want, but don't pass of your "knowledge" as actual fact.

Prove me wrong or shut up.

mikala
03-17-2009, 10:32 AM
This whining is still going on?

Cageman
03-17-2009, 10:39 AM
Prove me wrong or shut up.

Well, I'm in the HardCORE forums hand have read and seen information that is yet to be revealed to the general public.

NewTek has asked us to let them decide when this information will be avaliable for the general public, so... I would love to prove you wrong, but I respect NewTek and let them do the talking instead.

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 10:50 AM
Well, I'm in the HardCORE forums hand have read and seen information that is yet to be revealed to the general public.

NewTek has asked us to let them decide when this information will be avaliable for the general public, so... I would love to prove you wrong, but I respect NewTek and let them do the talking instead.

All you have is vague info. NEWTEK is blowing smoke up your rear and you are liking it.

Cageman
03-17-2009, 10:52 AM
All you have is vague info. NEWTEK is blowing smoke up your rear and you are liking it.

You are talking about things you don't know, so how can you even comment on this in the first place?

You have absolutely NO IDEA of what I know and do not know, and what NewTek has shown us in HardCORE.

So, again, how can you even comment on this?

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 11:04 AM
You are talking about things you don't know, so how can you even comment on this in the first place?

You have absolutely NO IDEA of what I know and do not know, and what NewTek has shown us in HardCORE.

So, again, how can you even comment on this?

How do you know whether I am a hardcore member or not. If I am then I Know what you know, which means that I can comment. Anyhow I still say that the smoke is so far up your rear that it is starting to come out you ears. Unravel that.

mikala
03-17-2009, 11:12 AM
Wow 12 is the new adult for this year.

jin choung
03-17-2009, 12:18 PM
Don't include everyone who bought into Core in your sweeping circlejerk generalization. :)

i'm not. i'm just countering the notion that the intent of this whole... ehhhh... "ordeal" was primarily to get the "real fans".....

jin

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 12:18 PM
Yessss! Let out the anger... stomp around like a raging 3 year old. Please educate all us sorry losers who obviously have no clue what we're doing. But do it all in your next post, then go away - please!

If you can't kiss NEWTEKs rear the go away, you can't play.

Personal attack deleted

adamredwoods
03-17-2009, 12:32 PM
If you can't kiss NEWTEKs rear the go away, you can't play.



Chill out. THis is a patience game. Making software is a slow, slow process.

Ask Adobe Photoshop users how long it took for them to get folders?

Cageman
03-17-2009, 01:06 PM
How do you know whether I am a hardcore member or not. If I am then I Know what you know, which means that I can comment.

If you are a HardCORE user, you are contradicting yourself about your "facts"...



Anyhow I still say that the smoke is so far up your rear that it is starting to come out you ears. Unravel that.

Gees...

Ok... I give up... you are way beyound any reason or common sense. Even more so, you are acting very unprofessional.

Let me know when you have grown up and we'll continue from there, ok?

:)

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 01:11 PM
Chill out. THis is a patience game. Making software is a slow, slow process.

Ask Adobe Photoshop users how long it took for them to get folders?

Nobody is asking for software, only factual info from the source, not the cheerleaders.

wsantiago
03-17-2009, 01:11 PM
If you are a HardCORE user, you are contradicting yourself about your "facts"...



Gees...

Ok... I give up... you are way beyound any reason or common sense. Even more so, you are acting very unprofessional.

Let me know when you have grown up and we'll continue from there, ok?

:)

Personal attacks are not permitted. User banned.

mav3rick
03-17-2009, 01:30 PM
wsan no reason for last comment really

GandB
03-17-2009, 01:42 PM
Wow; no need for the hostility.

Paul Brunson
03-17-2009, 02:57 PM
One of the major reasons I joined Core was to get away from all the childishness going on here in the public forums. I miss the old Newtek forum days where people were more civil.

I think I'll stop wasting my time reading any of the public forum threads and stick to the Hardcore threads.

geothefaust
03-17-2009, 03:08 PM
One of the major reasons I joined Core was to get away from all the childishness going on here in the public forums. I miss the old Newtek forum days where people were more civil.

I think I'll stop wasting my time reading any of the public forum threads and stick to the Hardcore threads.

Actually, It's why I hung out in the beta forums all the time. Now it's the HC forums for me too. Know what you mean...

GraphXs
03-17-2009, 05:13 PM
WOW, these fourms always get way out of control. :thumbsdow

Chuck I'm looking forward to the Core info!

It would of been great if Newtek would have done the "countdown meter" for any new info. Every new CORE info would start with a countdown and some hints. The entire 3D community went crazy for that! Do it! Do it now! Ya still got time to do that. :thumbsup::lwicon:

I really did like how Modo did their reveal.

Ya, i'm still waiting for some new info, but even when it comes I can't beat the deal of 395! Saving a 100, sound great to me.

I also thought it would have been nice for NT to wait until Sigggraph to reveal CORE, but I also know it's been a long time that LW has had any "paid" upgrades. Supporting Newtek and Core will only make LW better, and if you are a LW user ya haven't paid for a long long time and look at what 9.6 has given us!

Snosrap
03-17-2009, 08:46 PM
Personal attacks are not permitted. User banned.


Thanks whoever did this! For a minute I thought I was on XBox Live!

G-Man
03-17-2009, 09:18 PM
The biggest problem for Newtek is that they Hyped this thing up so big, that our expectations are out of control. Not sure they should have done that given the state of their progress.

Oedo 808
03-17-2009, 09:41 PM
The biggest problem for Newtek is that they Hyped this thing up so big, that our expectations are out of control. Not sure they should have done that given the state of their progress.

Was it really so much hype though? I mean the countdown certainly caught people's imagination, but I don't feel that it was really super-hype.

G-Man
03-17-2009, 10:52 PM
"Was it really so much hype though? I mean the countdown certainly caught people's imagination, but I don't feel that it was really super-hype"

Because of the countdown everyone got giddy...just look at all of your avatars.

jin choung
03-17-2009, 11:15 PM
"Was it really so much hype though? I mean the countdown certainly caught people's imagination, but I don't feel that it was really super-hype"

Because of the countdown everyone got giddy...just look at all of your avatars.

lol... gooooooooaaaaaaal! : )

anyhoo, as "little" as they hyped it (i believe there was mention of shattering of paradigms and such), they... fell short.

jin

CGI Addict
03-17-2009, 11:49 PM
The problem that some of us are having isn't with what CORE might be but that Newtek put so much hype into the notion that they were going to reveal much more than what has even now been released for general consumption. I have my belief in that I think CORE will be a great product but the point is for such hoopla at the start of all of this, both Luxology and the guys with Houdini have put much more out there to see and in such a way as to make their points pretty clear. No hype, no mystery.

All the fact sheets, FAQ's can't take the place of some cool video proof. Still keeping the faith though. :thumbsup:

A Mejias
03-17-2009, 11:57 PM
It seems that you(jin choung) and A Mejias are two of the ones that are actually seen your way through this cloud of smoke and mirrors that had fallen upon the lightwave community. Since the beginning this was a community that was very loyal to Newtek and fellow members. A community whose members use to go out of their way to help each other out. Here we are at each other throats. The sad part is that this was all brought about by Newtek themselves and the way the marketing department has handle this.

Well, after all that, I'm not sure whether to take that as a complement. LOL

I too avoid the general forums for the most part and mainly search for posts by official NT employees for info. ((It would really help if all NT employees had some kind of prefix to make it easier to find their posts.)) Speculation and insults are just out of control.

I consider myself a long time loyal LightWave user / fan / evangelist and I'm seriously considering going hardcore (eesh hate saying that) soon. I'm just disappointed and frustrated at the way the CORE reveal and info has been handled. NT has been the one making promises of more info and videos and such BEFORE the March 31 deadline. What I've heard so far is very promising, but when you see companies going down left and right because of the state of the economy and NT is not fulfilling even the basic promises of "more info" – well, you have to understand why some of us long time loyal users are uneasy to lay our money down. No matter how much we love LightWave and want to support it and it's dedicated makers, we need more, clear info. It's what NT said they would do. We're still waiting for them to do it. :)

geo_n
03-18-2009, 12:32 AM
Marketing has compiled the additional information that Jay has provided in the discussions in HardCORE and will be reviewing and distilling that into additions for the CORE/HardCORE public web pages. The compiled info is a 23-page document in raw form, for those curious. I expect this will take a few days to work through, and I don't know whether they might plan to add in stages as they have portions ready, or what. Maybe we can get Ben Vost, LightWave specialist of the Marketing group, to drop in on this thread and fill us all in.

The development team is working hard on CORE development, and when the team feels CORE is in the proper shape, more screenshots and videos will be forthcoming.

Just to be clear, CORE has indeed been two years in design. During that time there has been some amount of coding as well, as opportunities presented themselves. Beyond the coding done for prototyping purposes, some of this is already in service in shipping product: LightWave Rendition for Adobe Photoshop, for example, uses an early version of the CORE engine as its base, with LightWave rendering technologies integrated; while in LightWave v9.5 a limited CORE interface was implemented that allows LightWave to host and interact with the CORE plugin valkyrie.p, for Collada/FBX I/O. The Valkyrie project also integrated lwo and lws I/O support, meaning these are all covered for CORE. Collada and FBX both will be extended to further functionality than they have been so far for v9.5/v9.6, and additional geometry/animation format I/O support will be developed in Valkyrie as we go along.

This pretty much cleared it for me.
Lw 9.6 wil continue to be used along side core until it has animation, bones, dynaimcs, etc. So after core 2.0-3.0 I'll take a look again when most of 9.6 tools are there. I'm not into beta testing and I hate dealing with bugs nor do I have long experience to shape software workflow. But I'm glad newtek will start from scratch this time.
I wonder if there would be some more work with 9.6 to be able to handle core's raw million polys? That would be great.

IMI
03-18-2009, 02:49 AM
thanks whoever did this! For a minute i thought i was on xbox live!

:lol:

colkai
03-18-2009, 03:21 AM
To the subject at hand, I do think now that maybe the "info" on core was probably premature given the length of time since without any public follow-up regarding screen-shots / videos etc.

It has been so much time that it has allowed peopled initial enthusiasm to not only wane, but in some cases, turn to despondency, disgust and outright hostility.

Fair to say, even those who may have "signed on" are likely wondering if and when we'll get to see anything concrete.

I think a big problem lies in peoples perception of the product that is core.

To me, it seems more like LUXs 'Nexus' in so much as it an architecture upon which the new LW will be created, rather than just an actual product in itself. So a bit like lego bricks, (or Betta Builder for those of us at a certain age ;) ), things get bolted on and fabricated around a central premise.
I think many people were reading the info as being about an actual product of LW coming out.

Maybe, if Newtek has actually veered away from talking about LW specifically as a build / release and focussed purely on the architecture side of things, it may have caused less upset overall.

Even for me, I have a hard time thinking that even at Q4, we will likely not have a LW replacement and that one may have to "sign on" for several 'releases' in order to get a fully polished core based product. Being brutally honest, I am not quite sure how I feel about that.

gordonrobb
03-18-2009, 03:33 AM
Can I just say for the record, that I started this thread to find out if I would be getting more information. I needed a separate thread so my request did not get lost in the circular debates in some of the other threads. It seems that these debates have just expanded to fit the available space.

I have my answer, any Mod can feel free to close this thread.

hrgiger
03-18-2009, 04:42 AM
The only hype I see is self created hype. Jay told us late last year that they'd talk more about what's next for Lighwave. Then mid-January they started with the Core Countdown.
I pretty much figured it was Lightwave 10. There were clues about history and python and a few other features. Then the Core reveal (late as it was) told us that Lightwave was being rewritten and starting anew. I wasn't expecting that. So in that way, they exceeded my expectations. To me, this is better then continuing on with a feature rich, but aging architecture that still doesn't allow for certain basic things.
At no point was I ever led to believe that CORE would be a complete replacement for 9.6 immediately nor would I expect it to be after such a relatively short amount of time. For such a low buy in price for the first version, I can judge for myself along the way if CORE will match my expectations after the first release.

gordonrobb
03-18-2009, 04:45 AM
The only hype I see is self created hype. Jay told us late last year that they'd talk more about what's next for Lighwave. Then mid-January they started with the Core Countdown.
I pretty much figured it was Lightwave 10. There were clues about history and python and a few other features. Then the Core reveal (late as it was) told us that Lightwave was being rewritten and starting anew. I wasn't expecting that. So in that way, they exceeded my expectations. To me, this is better then continuing on with a feature rich, but aging architecture that still doesn't allow for certain basic things.
At no point was I ever led to believe that CORE would be a complete replacement for 9.6 immediately nor would I expect it to be after such a relatively short amount of time. For such a low buy in price for the first version, I can judge for myself along the way if CORE will match my expectations after the first release.


What he said. :i_agree:

Now can someone shut this thread (of mine) before anyone else gets banned.:thumbsdow

hrgiger
03-18-2009, 04:45 AM
I wonder if there would be some more work with 9.6 to be able to handle core's raw million polys? That would be great.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. And exactly one of the reasons they are creating CORE.

biliousfrog
03-18-2009, 05:02 AM
I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. And exactly one of the reasons they are creating CORE.

Actually, they have said that there will be continued updates to 9.6 included in the hardcore membership.

I also seem to remember Jay or Chuck saying that there will be a version of Lightwave included with CORE to tide you over until it is able to stand on it's own feet...it's not a direct quote but the post is buried somewhere.

Perhaps if we could have the information in one place without being diluted by fluff, speculation and personal attacks we could better evaluate what has been said?

IMI
03-18-2009, 05:26 AM
Actually, they have said that there will be continued updates to 9.6 included in the hardcore membership.



No, Jay Roth said there are no further plans for LW 9.x, and the only updates would be bug fixes deemed necessary. First Post HERE. (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95480)


Of course, no software product is ever perfect, so we will continue to support LightWave 9.x by providing technical support, and free bug-fix releases as deemed necessary by NewTek. However, we do not plan any new feature releases in the 9.x series. All the improvements that we have planned for LightWave will be offered as part of the HardCORE membership program.


Any of those released bug fixes will be available to all LW 9 owners.

Somewhere Chuck (I think it was Chuck) referred to "LightWave 3D" along with CORE, and said something to the effect it wouldn't be 9.6. I can't remember where that was stated though.
The *speculation* here and there has been if that "LightWave 3D" means a better version of 9.6 not being made available to the public.

EDIT:
Although it stands to reason the LW included with CORE would be a version improved over the course of the CORE development.

biliousfrog
03-18-2009, 06:22 AM
No, Jay Roth said there are no further plans for LW 9.x, and the only updates would be bug fixes deemed necessary. First Post HERE. (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95480)


Any of those released bug fixes will be available to all LW 9 owners.

Somewhere Chuck (I think it was Chuck) referred to "LightWave 3D" along with CORE, and said something to the effect it wouldn't be 9.6. I can't remember where that was stated though.
The *speculation* here and there has been if that "LightWave 3D" means a better version of 9.6 not being made available to the public.

EDIT:
Although it stands to reason the LW included with CORE would be a version improved over the course of the CORE development.

Yeah I kinda over-emphasized the word 'updates'. Chuck recently said that 9.6 has features to aid compatability with CORE so it stands to reason that future bug fixes will primarily be ones based around that integration rather than general updates.

It's a shame though because 9.6 still feels half baked in a lot of areas. For those that bought in with 8.5 and have had free updates ever since I can see how great it must seem but for those of us that had to buy LW9 and spend most of the 9x cycle waiting for a stable release, CORE feels like a big kick in the nuts.

bearfoot
03-18-2009, 06:27 AM
Those of us that joined core have access to the core forum along with some very cool information.:thumbsup:

hey i have subscribed and paid but dont have any forum access ?

do i need to contact support ?
thanks

IMI
03-18-2009, 07:07 AM
hey i have subscribed and paid but dont have any forum access ?

do i need to contact support ?
thanks

Maybe, but you should wait a little bit first, since I believe they handle all that by hand - manually.
Otherwise, you could try to log out and back in. An old cookie could prevent you from seeing the HardCORE forum even if you have been granted access already.
*****************************

Man, forget about more HardCORE information... what they really need is a FAQ for the membership signup and access. I don't know how any times I've seen that question asked and answered. Problem is, that information is scattered all over the forums and hard to find.

IMI
03-18-2009, 07:11 AM
It's a shame though because 9.6 still feels half baked in a lot of areas.

Seems to be the general consensus.

LW 9.6 is great, no doubt, and I love it.... but I don't know about you, but I'd gladly trade the carpaint node for hair and fur that works all the time and more things in Layout that can be undone. ;)

biliousfrog
03-18-2009, 07:56 AM
Seems to be the general consensus.

LW 9.6 is great, no doubt, and I love it.... but I don't know about you, but I'd gladly trade the carpaint node for hair and fur that works all the time and more things in Layout that can be undone. ;)

:agree:

I got the impression that the entire 9x cycle was about adding features to compensate for others not working and constantly fixing things that had been broken...which is why I don't buy into the whole 'we owe NewTek for all the free updates' mentality...if those updates weren't free I wouldn't even be here let alone discussing the next release.

I'd like to hope that LW9x suffered because focus was shifted to CORE but having seen how they're handling things currently I'm not sure that it's the case...more likely they've spread themselves too thinly.

Oedo 808
03-18-2009, 09:30 AM
The only hype I see is self created hype. Jay told us late last year that they'd talk more about what's next for Lighwave. Then mid-January they started with the Core Countdown.
I pretty much figured it was Lightwave 10. There were clues about history and python and a few other features. Then the Core reveal (late as it was) told us that Lightwave was being rewritten and starting anew. I wasn't expecting that. So in that way, they exceeded my expectations. To me, this is better then continuing on with a feature rich, but aging architecture that still doesn't allow for certain basic things.
At no point was I ever led to believe that CORE would be a complete replacement for 9.6 immediately nor would I expect it to be after such a relatively short amount of time. For such a low buy in price for the first version, I can judge for myself along the way if CORE will match my expectations after the first release.

Thank you hrgiger, for having a brain.

I have had my own reservations about whether I was going to stick with LightWave or not, but those weren't anything to do with the moaning that has gone on here. There are valid points, and I wish NewTek was little clearer, but most of what I have read has been nothing short of a child's tantrum. (Affronted? yeah yeah, boo hoo).

It's touch and go as to whether I can raise enough to join, but if I can, I'll be in Core.

Sekhar
03-18-2009, 09:50 AM
I have my answer

Which is?

nodalinski
03-18-2009, 10:39 AM
I could not find any info on the core page that says you will still need LW 9.6 to supplement core. The only place THAT is advertised is here in this forum! Also... in the reveal video they had every opportunity to tell folks that you will still need 9.6 even when core is released. Did I miss that part?

The more I think about it the more this q4 release is stating to sound like a repeat of v9... Are they writing a manual for the q4 release or are we going to have to use new software with very limited documentation?

This is going to be the same old deal as usual!

jin choung
03-18-2009, 09:49 PM
At no point was I ever led to believe that CORE would be a complete replacement for 9.6 immediately nor would I expect it to be after such a relatively short amount of time.


then you have a unique interpretation of 1.0.

that means something to me.

maya 1.0 that means something. if instead, they wanted to pass off a maya .75 as a 1.0... i'd probably be unkind in my opinion.

if lw is supposed to be a complete modeling animation rendering package and much of it is not fully implemented at 1.0... what is 1.0 about it?

again, it would look to me like .75 or .85 or whatever. and further, it would be clear when 1.0 was reached. it wouldn't be a nebulous thing. but it seems right now 1.0 is q4 regardless of whether it is really 1.0 as we would know it.

it's their ball to do what they want but that's not something i approve of or would champion. it's a move that speaks to their need to fund development. but to most people's eyes it looks like too little too soon for a product. would've been better if they could have afforded to wait to FINISH before they actually start selling it.

sigh.

jin

A Mejias
03-22-2009, 02:54 PM
Well, maybe not "FINISH," but at least be at a minimal "MODEL, ANIMATE, RENDER" stage.

bryguy
03-22-2009, 03:32 PM
another funny thing...

NT is using the fact that they botched the 9.0 feature list as an excuse not to give a feature list for core... How convenient for them!!! It is so absurd to me that people are willing to eat that crock of sh!t!

so where exactly does that leave us? Are we supposed to just buy a product that doesn't have any set features?

What is NT's vision for Core 1.0?
Or is it how ever far they get by Q4 thats what they are selling?
So much of this makes no sense to me at all!

hrgiger...
I really think i need you to explain this to me in very simply... so I can understand exactly what it is that I am getting with a core 1.0 purchase.

as it stands now... it seems to me that NT is preselling a product that they dont even know what it will be when released.

hrgiger
03-22-2009, 04:36 PM
hrgiger...
I really think i need you to explain this to me in very simply... so I can understand exactly what it is that I am getting with a core 1.0 purchase.

as it stands now... it seems to me that NT is preselling a product that they dont even know what it will be when released.

In regards to the second part... I'm sure there's some truth in saying that Newtek doesn't know what the first release of CORE will be like. This is after all a new product that is evolving as we go. While I'm sure they have a solid idea of where we are going, they may not know where they'll be along that road by the end of this year. I think it would be unwise for them to lay out some sort of preliminary feature list of things yet to be implemented. Who could blame them for all the flaming they get when something doesn't always work as planned?
As far as what you're getting with a core 1.0 purchase. It seems that we won't know that probably for a while. As Jay said, if you're someone who needs to have an exact feature list, it would probably be best for you to wait until more information is available. But, what you are getting is the chance to participate in the development of a brand new 3D application. Not as a paying beta tester as some have suggested but rather the opportunity to have an ongoing discussion of what is to be implemented and how it is implemented. You will be able to use the CORE software along the way and test first hand the features that we have been asking for, suggest improvements where they are needed, and voice disapproval where necessary. Out here, it's all just speculation. But once the builds start coming out in beta, you can see actual progress.
I don't know to what extent CORE will be a complete solution by Q4. I find that irrelevant, especially this early on. I suspect it's going to take longer then this year for that to happen and that's ok. I think it's best to keep expectations in check to avoid disappointment later. A lot of people have wanted Lightwave to go this direction for quite some time. I think it's reasonable to expect that it's going to take a lot of work and a fair amount of time for that to happen.
I guess what I'm getting at is, if you're looking for CORE to be a complete replacement for Lightwave 9.6, it's probably best to wait until you know that will happen. Don't buy in now just because it's $100 cheaper thinking you are getting something that you may not end up getting for a year or two. Wait until more info is available to make that decision. Right now, the opportunity to get a discount is what it is. A discount in exchange for a small leap of faith.

bryguy
03-22-2009, 05:06 PM
Thats fair enough...
At least you are looking at it in the right perspective.

I still have a big problem with the fact that they are not releasing any kind of feature list do to THEIR OWN mistakes with 9.0! Why not give the bare min of what they plan to have done? That way if they get more done, it will be more then expected instead of less...

To me... the fact that they wont release any info about features speaks volumes as to how far they are with development!

also, by them using 9.0 as a reason not to release features, makes me believe we are going down the same 9.0 road.

I just think that honesty and complete openness of their situation will be far more beneficial then pissing anymore of their customers off.

A Mejias
03-22-2009, 05:19 PM
In regards to the second part... I'm sure there's some truth in saying that Newtek doesn't know what the first release of CORE will be like. This is after all a new product that is evolving as we go. While I'm sure they have a solid idea of where we are going, they may not know where they'll be along that road by the end of this year. I think it would be unwise for them to lay out some sort of preliminary feature list of things yet to be implemented. Who could blame them for all the flaming they get when something doesn't always work as planned?
As far as what you're getting with a core 1.0 purchase. It seems that we won't know that probably for a while. As Jay said, if you're someone who needs to have an exact feature list, it would probably be best for you to wait until more information is available. But, what you are getting is the chance to participate in the development of a brand new 3D application. Not as a paying beta tester as some have suggested but rather the opportunity to have an ongoing discussion of what is to be implemented and how it is implemented. You will be able to use the CORE software along the way and test first hand the features that we have been asking for, suggest improvements where they are needed, and voice disapproval where necessary. Out here, it's all just speculation. But once the builds start coming out in beta, you can see actual progress.
I don't know to what extent CORE will be a complete solution by Q4. I find that irrelevant, especially this early on. I suspect it's going to take longer then this year for that to happen and that's ok. I think it's best to keep expectations in check to avoid disappointment later. A lot of people have wanted Lightwave to go this direction for quite some time. I think it's reasonable to expect that it's going to take a lot of work and a fair amount of time for that to happen.
I guess what I'm getting at is, if you're looking for CORE to be a complete replacement for Lightwave 9.6, it's probably best to wait until you know that will happen. Don't buy in now just because it's $100 cheaper thinking you are getting something that you may not end up getting for a year or two. Wait until more info is available to make that decision. Right now, the opportunity to get a discount is what it is. A discount in exchange for a small leap of faith.


I think the deep discount of $200 to $300 is a great idea! We're getting something for the time we put in to testing it. I also agree with not having "detailed" feature list. Stuff happens and things seldomly work the way you dream them and almost always take much longer. They HAVE said if it takes longer than Q4 or our initial one year subscription then we'll still get the "release version." But the near total lack of info and clarity is what is so upsetting to so many. Especially when they said they would have a lot more info and videos etc. See here. (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95480) A weekly trickle of info and some common questions answered would squash a lot of negativity and wild speculation.

bryguy
03-22-2009, 05:35 PM
The discounts are nice, but at some point I would like to upgrade my lightwave because I want to, not because NT gave me no other choice!

I would much rather NT produce a quality product first, then sold that product based on its capabilities.

Not the way they seem to have been doing it lately...

hrgiger
03-22-2009, 07:28 PM
Thats fair enough...
At least you are looking at it in the right perspective.

I still have a big problem with the fact that they are not releasing any kind of feature list do to THEIR OWN mistakes with 9.0! Why not give the bare min of what they plan to have done? That way if they get more done, it will be more then expected instead of less...

To me... the fact that they wont release any info about features speaks volumes as to how far they are with development!

also, by them using 9.0 as a reason not to release features, makes me believe we are going down the same 9.0 road.

I just think that honesty and complete openness of their situation will be far more beneficial then pissing anymore of their customers off.

I would like to address this post if I could bryguy.

I think you'll find that some of the things they mentioned that were going to happen during the 9x series that ended up not happening were due to limitations that the old architecture provided. As others have suggested, it is true that LW up to this point has been sort of a bolt on architecture where you're adding features, but features that don't take much consideration of the foundation they are layered on top of. There's a lot of things in the current LW that just don't talk to each other and are really in the end just workarounds for solid implementations. Remember that LW was built as two seperate programs that never seemed truly seemed to bridge the gap between them. CORE is a unified environment from the start.
My guess is, they knew that CORE was next and instead of implementing half-assed features (like the UV tools they ended up pulling from the 9 series), they would push them to CORE where they could be properly implemented.
If they do share with you in the next few days the questions and answers we have had in the CORE forums, you will know quite a bit more of what you can expect. Keep in mind though that right now the focus is on the Q1 release and less on what is for Q4. We still have almost a week and a half until the March 31st date for them to give us more information. I hope just as much as you do that they share more with everyone. As I'm now invested in at least the first release of CORE, I'd like to see as many people involved as possible. My hope is that it will be this week when more information will be provided which will give people time to upgrade for the discount now if they choose to.
I wouldn't take the silence as an indication of how far along they are. I would just say that they are working hard to get the first build out and want to avoid the mistake of appearing not unprepared like it went down with the CORE reveal. Jay has said as much. And from all indications, CORE will be nothing like 9.0.

bryguy
03-22-2009, 08:08 PM
I would like to address this post if I could bryguy.

I think you'll find that some of the things they mentioned that were going to happen during the 9x series that ended up not happening were due to limitations that the old architecture provided. As others have suggested, it is true that LW up to this point has been sort of a bolt on architecture where you're adding features, but features that don't take much consideration of the foundation they are layered on top of. There's a lot of things in the current LW that just don't talk to each other and are really in the end just workarounds for solid implementations. Remember that LW was built as two seperate programs that never seemed truly seemed to bridge the gap between them. CORE is a unified environment from the start.
My guess is, they knew that CORE was next and instead of implementing half-assed features (like the UV tools they ended up pulling from the 9 series), they would push them to CORE where they could be properly implemented.
If they do share with you in the next few days the questions and answers we have had in the CORE forums, you will know quite a bit more of what you can expect. Keep in mind though that right now the focus is on the Q1 release and less on what is for Q4. We still have almost a week and a half until the March 31st date for them to give us more information. I hope just as much as you do that they share more with everyone. As I'm now invested in at least the first release of CORE, I'd like to see as many people involved as possible. My hope is that it will be this week when more information will be provided which will give people time to upgrade for the discount now if they choose to.
I wouldn't take the silence as an indication of how far along they are. I would just say that they are working hard to get the first build out and want to avoid the mistake of appearing not unprepared like it went down with the CORE reveal. Jay has said as much. And from all indications, CORE will be nothing like 9.0.

You are hardcore:) so you know more then I about it at this point.
Lets hope core is great and it all works out for them and us! I hope that NT will be up front and honest about the whole process.

A Mejias
03-22-2009, 09:18 PM
It would be nice if they extended the "deadline" by a few weeks AFTER they release this new info. After all it was promised almost two months ago. I think that would go a long way to make up for this unfortunate situation. And those that are still sitting on the fence would not feel as coerced. It may even bring in a few more that would otherwise not have jumped on.

waverguy
03-22-2009, 09:47 PM
I'm still on the fence as well. Maybe they could extend the deadline to April 30th instead.

VirtualFM
03-22-2009, 10:14 PM
Well, I was going to start a topic but realised this is exactly the same thing.

So, almost 2 months have passed and still no new info. I was going to completelly pass on Core, but a project came up and I might find the money around somewhere to make the investement... with some sacrifices...

So, if I am going to invest, I need to have more info. I mean, SOMETHING! Something besides silence and the same page on http://www.newtek.com/core.

Show me:
- some screenshots (even if the interface is not a final thing, as we now know it's configurable, right?!)
- some videos showing something else than a box being subdivided
- some result videos, like Luxology does with Modo or SideFX with Houdini, showing that "you will be able to make stuff like this from now on"
- would it be asking much to get some of the mentioned videos? What about videos showing interface interaction? At least some screenshots of handles and gizmos/manipulators!
- a feature being demonstrated (even an HTML demo/tutorial would be OK)
- a picture of a guy sitting at his desk, testing the new stuff!
- a picture of some guys in a meeting, planning awesome and breakthrough improvements... or just some improvements!
- ...

You see?! SOMETHING! Sell me something! DO YOU WANT my money now? Show me something that proves this is not going to be a bad investment. Then, in a week form now, I may be willing to expend one month's food for my family (almost 2!) in your in-development-software.

bryguy
03-22-2009, 10:52 PM
lol...yeah

I am sure they will show something by the end of the week so they can get the next round of core orders in, and keep the rest of us hanging on to hope for a bit longer.

I was going to buy into this no matter what, but now I think I will let it ride. I am under the impression that my 9.6 will be more useful to me then core will be for a long time.

I may still buy in... but it will be based on what they show me, not the cheap price! I am done playing that game with them. It is a bad way to treat loyal customers! Show us a product, then sell it! You know...the normal way!

jin choung
03-23-2009, 12:28 AM
imo, it's not at all about coercion. as has been said, it's always been "this much and no more... take it or leave it".

but they are motivating most of us to leave it. as i've said at the outset of this possibility of "new pricing", they have to prove to us that more money will be worth it.

there are many of us for whom track record is a perilous thing to appeal to (so many head bangs on the table moaning, "w... t f.... are you doing?!.....")

burden of proof is on them to show us that core is worth continuing with.

they are shirking that responsibility... and at their peril. again, they have no binding obligation to be open but if their proposition is "take it or leave it", they play a dangerous game.

at this point, f the "deal" of the prebuy. there's absolutely nothing that's been shown since that dragon model and a "deal" for vaporware is not a deal. what kind of consumer buys something sight unseen? answer - believers. and that's just a messy, BINDING relationship they choose to muck around in.

so let's just take whatever "value" the prebuy represented off the table. it is for believers only.

for the rest of us, they've gotta pony up some info because they won't get jack squat on THEIR terms. you either properly sell it to the consumer's satisfaction or there's nothing to discuss. leave it indeed.

9 days and counting.

jin

bryguy
03-23-2009, 12:47 AM
What is this dragon model people keep talking about? Everyone keeps on saying about this dragon model... What have I missed? What fing dragon?

who wants to put odds on the beta being delayed?

IMI
03-23-2009, 01:42 AM
What is this dragon model people keep talking about? Everyone keeps on saying about this dragon model... What have I missed? What fing dragon?


The dragon model that come with the 9.6 sample content: \LW96_Content\Objects\Dragon_RIG\LW_Dragon.lwo

And there are actually four folders with dragon stuff in it, plus related scene examples. The dragon is pretty good, although it's a shame it wasn't UV mapped.
But the rig is awesome, really. At least I guess it is. Looks pretty good to me at least, and I suppose to others.

Sean Martin
03-23-2009, 03:48 AM
...and I would like to see some information on the Mac version? before opting in. Newtek does not have a good reputation for development on the Mac side.

Will it be released the same time as the Windows version? or will we Mac users have to wait another 3 months for the UB.

I don't mean to be negative but I don't really want to hand money over for vaporware.

IMI
03-23-2009, 04:11 AM
I don't mean to be negative but I don't really want to hand money over for vaporware.

I see "vaporware" is becoming the new buzzword around here for CORE.

I'm not thrilled either the way NT is going about it, but "vaporware" is, IMO, a huge misnomer and an untruth. They tell you what they're selling, which, at this point, is to be part of the CORE process, essentially, and get the final release of CORE along with it.

Hell, even if it *does* turn out to be modo 301, it's still a deal at 400 bucks, and for new buyers, there's nothing "vapor" about LW 9.6.

Unless you "vaporware" guys simply think NT is trying to pull a fast one on you, the old bait-n-switch or take the money and run. I don't see any precedent for believing that though - NT is one of the best software companies around to deal with and they've been at it for a good long time too.

Of course, there IS another option - just don't buy it and be happy you didn't.
But it's just outright rude and insulting to keep calling it vaporware, just because one doesn't like the way NT is handling the marketing.

hrgiger
03-23-2009, 04:31 AM
but they are motivating most of us to leave it. as i've said at the outset of this possibility of "new pricing", they have to prove to us that more money will be worth it.



You keep saying that 'most of us' have chosen to leave it, but is it most of us? It seems to me that if you are just using this board as an example, the people that are unhappy about CORE thus far are limited to a smaller bunch while most of us seem to be accepting that this will be the next version of Lightwave to get behind. I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but without hard numbers, I think it's not really a point to make.
If you go by the poll I started here in Community 'have you joined hardcore yet?', it would seem that 'most of us' are buying into the idea of CORE even with the limited information we have. Obviously I know that polls are never entirely accurate but they are a sample of a larger population and from that sample, it might be wiser to deduce that it would be more accurate for you to say 'almost half of us' have chosen to leave it.

IMI
03-23-2009, 04:58 AM
... if Newtek want to be fair, than they have to extend the time for getting a lower priced update! At least 4 weeks after "True" informations!

I have to agree to that, but I would replace the word "fair" with "reasonable".

I'll keep defending the HardCORE idea even though I'm not buying into it just yet, but with each day that goes by with no more of this promised information, it just seems a little bit more irresponsible of them.

Who knows though - maybe they have a major WOW! factor reveal coming up at the last minute with an elaborate demo video and a message that there are mere hours left to buy into CORE before the price goes up. That might jolt the undecided into immediate action, and spur on the spontaneous buyers who might think twice if they had more time to think about it.

GandB
03-23-2009, 05:14 AM
maybe they have a major WOW! factor reveal coming up at the last minute with an elaborate demo video and a message that there are mere hours left to buy into CORE before the price goes up. That might jolt the undecided into immediate action, and spur on the spontaneous buyers who might think twice if they had more time to think about it.
Unless they've already spent their money elsewhere, due to lack of any pertinent info. ;)

IMI
03-23-2009, 05:22 AM
Unless they've already spent their money elsewhere, due to lack of any pertinent info. ;)


Yeah, there is that.
Autocash Softimage 7.5 looks really really good right about now. ;)

serge
03-23-2009, 05:58 AM
It would be nice if they extended the "deadline" by a few weeks AFTER they release this new info...
+1 :thumbsup:

biliousfrog
03-23-2009, 07:59 AM
Who knows though - maybe they have a major WOW! factor reveal coming up at the last minute with an elaborate demo video and a message that there are mere hours left to buy into CORE before the price goes up. That might jolt the undecided into immediate action, and spur on the spontaneous buyers who might think twice if they had more time to think about it.

You're probably right...and they'll forget that the rest of the world are in different time zones and most people will only hear of the WOW news a couple of days later on forums and through YouTube when the price has gone up.

IMI
03-23-2009, 08:25 AM
You're probably right...and they'll forget that the rest of the world are in different time zones and most people will only hear of the WOW news a couple of days later on forums and through YouTube when the price has gone up.

Damn... you're right. Time zones and internet access and forum browsing habits and all that. It's very conceivable that a whole lot of people could miss their next bit of info before the deadline even if they published it right now.

I *try* to look at the world from a non-USA-centric view, really I do. ;)

And I certainly couldn't blame people for not hanging around waiting for it to come out when we were all under the impression we wouldn't be waiting *this* long for something. I'd imagine allot of people by now have simply said to hell with it.

I think the only substantial thing I learned about CORE in the last month+ is that it has, in fact, been under development for the past one or two years.

StereoMike
03-23-2009, 10:04 AM
Who knows though - maybe they have a major WOW! factor reveal coming up

I so want to believe that. But NT, tho I love LW, has a history (with recent additions) in messing with peoples expectation and failing to deliver what has been hyped (in a timely manner).

cresshead
03-23-2009, 10:44 AM
april 1st will be an interesting day for sure!

MacDoggie
03-23-2009, 10:55 AM
I so want to believe that. But NT, tho I love LW, has a history (with recent additions) in messing with peoples expectation and failing to deliver what has been hyped (in a timely manner).

Right and I for the most part, am down with your comments here.:thumbsup: Hopefully, NT HAS learned from it's mistakes. This is a great opportunity for them (NT) but it is also a double edged sword that should be wielded carefully. That being said, let's just wait and see what NT does. NT does have the capability to build one hell of a 3D application.

Cheers

bryguy
03-23-2009, 10:55 AM
The dragon model that come with the 9.6 sample content: \LW96_Content\Objects\Dragon_RIG\LW_Dragon.lwo

And there are actually four folders with dragon stuff in it, plus related scene examples. The dragon is pretty good, although it's a shame it wasn't UV mapped.
But the rig is awesome, really. At least I guess it is. Looks pretty good to me at least, and I suppose to others.

Cool...thanks,

But what does that have to do with core? Jin made it sound like it was core related...

MacDoggie
03-23-2009, 11:05 AM
The discounts are nice, but at some point I would like to upgrade my lightwave because I want to, not because NT gave me no other choice!

I would much rather NT produce a quality product first, then sold that product based on its capabilities.

Not the way they seem to have been doing it lately...

Chances are they (NT ) needs money to go on to the next level all of this seems to point to that. BTW this is my own speculation so I am not speaking for anyone else... IMO, if the base architecture is in place then the rest will fall into place. Personally, I am willing to invest in that. I do understand why some of the less that supportive comments are being made here and most certainly do not fault anyone who harbors these feelings. Most understandable....

caccipergolo
03-23-2009, 11:19 AM
Cool...thanks,

But what does that have to do with core? Jin made it sound like it was core related...

Look here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95480

bryguy
03-23-2009, 11:36 AM
ahhhh... now I see.

Although, screen grabs are a far cry from proof that there is actualy that many polys in the scene. That would have been nice to show in the core video so we could see how fast it really is.

bryguy
03-23-2009, 12:10 PM
Come on neverko...
If you are going to call me a fraud. I really think you should talk to the people that I frauded to see if their money was refunded! Not that i give two ****s what you think anyway, but if you are going to call me that...you should be sure!

and its now bryguy...get it right.

I will be here forever... Do to the wonderful world of proxy servers!

*Pete*
03-23-2009, 12:23 PM
Who knows though - maybe they have a major WOW! factor reveal coming up at the last minute with an elaborate demo video and a message that there are mere hours left to buy into CORE before the price goes up. That might jolt the undecided into immediate action, and spur on the spontaneous buyers who might think twice if they had more time to think about it.

if they would announce feature X is the WOW factor, it would always leave some unaffected.

some of us are modellers, others mainly animators, some of us are in archviz, others do commercial, some do spaceships and others do monsters...no one single feature will please them all and any feature, no matter the awesomnes of the WOW factor will always dissapoint others to who the WOW factor does not apply.

the single most important WOW factor has been revealed and ignored becouse the fewest of us actually have any clue on how it relates to what we will do with CORE.

the WOW factor im speaking about is the new node based, open and flexible foundation for every future WOW factors that will be possible thanks to it.


people here do easily forget that LW is old...very old, dont you guys remember the frustration with getting FPrime to work with 9.X becouse it was difficult to make it work with LW?
the SDK was limited access...now it will be full access.

its not just what NT will code for you, it is also what other genious programmers can code as plugins for LW.

i doubt anyone will get a WOW factor in the coming days big enough to ge anyone to buy into CORE...you do or you do not, but honestly, you must understand that CORE is going to be on a beta stage for the remainder of this year, you will not get a full feature list untill the features are done and ready.

i told it in other places and i could repeat myself here again..i went hardcore becouse LW as we know it is dead.

and since LW is dead i will have to learn a new application, it could be Modo, it could be Max or Maya, or it could be CORE.

either way, which ever application i would pick i would have to go through a learning curve...for many reasons, which may or may not apply to anyone else, i decided to learn CORE as it was getting built, feature by feature, step by step to get a good solid knowledge of the application by the time it is production ready.

another reason for why i picked CORE is that as Jay said in the video...it will be a 3rd generation 3d application, made to last several years into the future while others are showing marks of old age.

many games were created with the QUAKE engine, some very good ones too..but none of them can really match the latest games build by the latest game technology.


you will all get part of that goodness once CORE is release...if you can wait, then wait.
there will not be much use of having a program at early beta stages for most of you guys, other than helping NT by bughunting or as me, using it to ease off my learning curve slightly.

bryguy
03-23-2009, 12:46 PM
you will not get a full feature list untill the features are done and ready.

So are you saying that there is no features done at this point?

I dont think anyone is asking for a full feature list... For me I would like to know what is done now! Not what will be done. That way I can see for myself how far along they are before I buy into core.

to me... It seems like NT is keeping the state of core a big secret because they dont want people to know exactly how little is done at this point in time!

*Pete*
03-23-2009, 01:14 PM
So are you saying that there is no features done at this point?

I dont think anyone is asking for a full feature list... For me I would like to know what is done now! Not what will be done. That way I can see for myself how far along they are before I buy into core.

to me... It seems like NT is keeping the state of core a big secret because they dont want people to know exactly how little is done at this point in time!

Its more complicated than that...
some features are coded in but wont be activated yet...

there are no big secrets, really...the info that has been released in HC forums pretty much mimics the info given here too, except its more in detail and includes some speculation on future features and possibilities...but as for what to expect CORE to do for you next week, you propably know it all already.

if you wait and buy into CORE next week, next month or half a year from today when CORE has evolved to a stage that more satisfies you..you loose only 100 dollar, which is basically no money at all.

its a symbolic discount for trust, thats all...


i think that you are completely missing the point if you stare blindly on features and what it can do today...
the strongest part of CORE is what it will be able to do, with the help of future features from NT or third party...

im sorry for not being able to help you more specifically though, but do not expect a production ready 3D program next week...i suggest that you should wait.

archijam
03-23-2009, 01:51 PM
*pete*! Don't feed it!

*Pete*
03-23-2009, 01:54 PM
So are you saying that there is no features done at this point?


just to clarify for this one.

you already know these things.

History stack.
Instancing.
High poly objects/sculpting.

thats what i can think of right away...mainly since all of them are intresting for me.
im sure someone can fill in more features that we already know of and that have been announced on the public forums.

CORE has more features than that, and you can read all Jayroth's posts and the newtek.com/core list to find out more.

naturally CORE has features already...and not one of those i listed exist in 9.6.

there are naturally a lot of things missing in CORE, but for a beta i think it is completely unimportant at this stage...for a full release at Q4 it will be more of intrest.



a strong reason for all the confusion is becouse there is not one, single locked thread or site where all information that is confirmed is stored at...its all spread in threads, even in this one, deep under tons of posts and only a few losts souls drunk on red bull will ever accidentally stumble onto them without using the search function with the intent of finding them all.

search for jayroths and chucks posts

*Pete*
03-23-2009, 01:57 PM
*pete*! Don't feed it!

i know it is the bryphi many headed troll...but my posts are not only intented to him, but also for others who might be honestly confused...


anyway...im all out of "food"...ill go back to work.

bryguy
03-23-2009, 02:02 PM
Those features were shown, but only in a very primitive state. That core vid was nice, but I saw no evidence that any of those features were close to complete!

I saw nothing showing any subd sculpting...


*pete*! Don't feed it!
who are you?

*Pete*
03-23-2009, 02:27 PM
I saw nothing showing any subd sculpting...


57 million subdivided polys on one modell pretty much speaks for itself for what purpose it will have, besides Jay has mentioned it on some threads too.

as for features being far from being complete...what will be released is a BETA, we who joined HC will be bughunting and helping NT to complete those features...

you did not participate in the 9.x betas, which i did...many features that you take for granted in 9.6 came out to beta as unfinished, unstable, not completed features...

those features then went through the grinder that beta testing is and came out as evolved, stable and improved features.


anyway, judging by your latest post...no offence man, HC is NOT for you...wait for the finished product or atleast for the few last days before it is released when you are more able to see what CORE will be.

simply, forget about CORE for the next half a year.

you will not miss anything anyway...

IMI
03-23-2009, 02:29 PM
some of us are modellers, others mainly animators, some of us are in archviz, others do commercial, some do spaceships and others do monsters...no one single feature will please them all and any feature, no matter the awesomnes of the WOW factor will always dissapoint others to who the WOW factor does not apply.



Well I can get what you're saying and I agree with it.

What I meant, first, was just speculation for its own sake, but something like if they were to show a video of that dragon, for example, being rigged up in CORE, showing undos for all the tools being used on it, maybe some endomorphs being made, and then scrubbing through the timeline, revealing a beautiful animation of the dragon.

Then they open the node editor and turn on CORE's *built-in* FPrime-like preview render and attach a bunch of material nodes to it and render it all in full Monte Carlo glory using the CPU and GPU... in fifteen seconds.

That would be WOW. ;)

bryguy
03-23-2009, 02:42 PM
I am with you imi...

There are things that they COULD show that would make every naysayer buy in! I can think of a few things, that if they showed them working well all of us would shut up and buy!

I dont believe that this will happen, but if I were NT that would have been my goal for the next video.

I for one am very curious as to how instancing will be handeled. There is a few things that would make me buy in now if I saw working the way I think they should.

We will see...

to pete...
as far as waiting for the final version... That is most likely what i will do, but if core is the program I am going to be using eventually... it would be nice to get a jump on learning it.

Sekhar
03-23-2009, 02:44 PM
there are no big secrets, really...the info that has been released in HC forums pretty much mimics the info given here too, except its more in detail and includes some speculation on future features and possibilities...but as for what to expect CORE to do for you next week, you propably know it all already.

Yeah, but we don't know that what NT is going to release is just the info already out in the HC forums. May be you guys will learn some new things too.

bryguy
03-23-2009, 02:54 PM
What ever meg... why dont you have them come here and talk about it?

you are a hatefull sorry soul! You can try and discredit me all you want!

I noticed you dont hate me enough that you wouldnt watch my vids though... hope you learned something:)

bryguy
03-23-2009, 02:59 PM
dont you find it kind of odd that the only people that have anything to say about it had nothing to do with the situation, and it is always in a way that is trying to slander me... Wonder why that is?

bryguy2
03-23-2009, 04:03 PM
To NT!

If you guys are going to allow people to slander me on your website. you better make damn sure his accusations are true before you allow him to continue!


I cant do anything to meglodick cause he is in another country, but you guys are allowing slander to be posted on your site, it isnt true, and it is illegal...

bryguy2
03-23-2009, 04:12 PM
prove it!
put your money where your mouth is!

Talk is cheap!

bryguy2
03-23-2009, 04:15 PM
I don't have to TRY and discredit you - you've already done that enough in the various threads here and many of us KNOW you're a fraud.

And what videos are you talking about? I don't recall watching anything created by you.



Maybe because we don't want others taken in by your BS?

Got yourself yet another screen name? Bryguy2? How many more? :D Gotta keep many so when one gets banned, you'll have another ready to go. :thumbsup:

You are an angry man!

Sekhar
03-23-2009, 04:25 PM
Guys, please. This thread is for fighting over CORE, not Bryphi. :)

bryguy2
03-23-2009, 04:40 PM
Thats great meg, but I thought you said you talked to the people involved? You obviosly did not!

Have the person you talked to come on here and we can sort it all out for you!

Why you are so worried about this insident that is 4 years old and has been resoved makes me question your sanity!

We are talking about core, and you and neverko decide to come in and slander me with 4 year old info that has nothing to do with you and has been resolved! What gives? seems to me you have an issue?

You are the lier! bring the person you talked to on here! Why lie to make someone look bad?

bryguy2
03-23-2009, 04:58 PM
why would they not want to say something?

A Mejias
03-23-2009, 05:39 PM
January 2007 to March 2009 is not 4 years. LOL

"Silly rabbit, Tricks are for kids."

bryguy2
03-23-2009, 05:52 PM
I was guessing... havent really thought about it much since I payed the money back 2 months after the deal!

what makes this even more stupid is... the items that were for sale on ebay were not mine nor were they being sold by me on ebay! I payed the money back out of my own pocket so these people would get their money back...

Now I got megolodick face Slandering me! This has nothing to do with scamming for him. Cause I didnt scam him and the people involved did get their money back. So I dont know what his deal is!

What makes me laugh is that he felt it ok to bring that up in this thread!
If he was that worried about these so called people he and them could have very easily started a new thread about it! HE seems to be the only one with a problem!

jin choung
03-23-2009, 07:03 PM
You keep saying that 'most of us' have chosen to leave it, but is it most of us? It seems to me that if you are just using this board as an example, the people that are unhappy about CORE thus far are limited to a smaller bunch while most of us seem to be accepting that this will be the next version of Lightwave to get behind. I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but without hard numbers, I think it's not really a point to make.
If you go by the poll I started here in Community 'have you joined hardcore yet?', it would seem that 'most of us' are buying into the idea of CORE even with the limited information we have. Obviously I know that polls are never entirely accurate but they are a sample of a larger population and from that sample, it might be wiser to deduce that it would be more accurate for you to say 'almost half of us' have chosen to leave it.

nope. easier than that. you say there are a couple of hundred in core now. i'm just comparing that to total number of lw users.

most of us are leaving it for now.

jin

*Pete*
03-23-2009, 07:07 PM
megolodick

it is difficult for me to see this as an insult...its more of an compliment.


as for your frauds from the past...i just cant get it, why do you insist on keeping a recognicable name and behavior, you are simply asking for trouble and will be banned....again.

jin choung
03-23-2009, 07:08 PM
Cool...thanks,

But what does that have to do with core? Jin made it sound like it was core related...

can't find the thread now but it was something like "more from the core", jay showed it (dragon) tumbling and stuff in core.

jin

*Pete*
03-23-2009, 07:15 PM
most of us are leaving it for now.


nonsence...there is absolutely no way you can calculate like that.

I think that if 9.6 was good enough last month for "most" users it will be good at the end of the year too...and im sure that they will ALL take a good look at CORE before they decide to leave...

its not even BETA yet...i mean, come on.


and i dont even believe you will leave us Jin...in the worst case scenario you will find another app to work with (and im sure you already have) and still, even if that another application provides you everything you ask for...you will return here to see what CORE is all about at Q4.

bryguy2
03-23-2009, 07:20 PM
pete

I dont care about being bannned... Its not even worth NTs time to do it. It is very easy to get around!

What I care about is NT letting people slander me on their website, then banning me so I cant defend myself!

LOL about the megolodick... i thought that too after I typed it!

I dont want keep on going about this on this thread! If people were wronged let them come forth. Untill then I will let it go...



Thanks Jin... IMI already pointed me in the right direction.
It proved nothing to me either. Screen shoots to demo 3d are pointless!

jin choung
03-23-2009, 07:21 PM
I am Hardoce-Member, and many of this is also asked in the forums there, actually you get nothing than unclear statements, that can be read like you want to read...

i really really really loathe this about newtek communication. complete lack of clarity and almost CREATES fanboy vs. gadfly antagonism because of the rorshach tests that are their statements.

ugh. wtf.

why is CLARITY so difficult?

eight days and counting.

jin

UnCommonGrafx
03-23-2009, 07:22 PM
I dunno, jin.

I would daresay, many or most of that lot left quite a bit ago. They went with what was current and kept them a job and employed. Their feedback, frustration...what have you, no doubt are feeding the idea of which this thread goes on and on and on...The idea of a re-write, what all that entails and the second line of this post. Third, actually.

But alas, this post isn't about what you can't prove but what you can: NT ought to show more of the goods to get more of you guyses (sic) goods. No one really cares whose left just whether or not it's going to be something you should spring for now or it's not ever gonna work for you again. Many stayed before to berate those who stated no ill will. Hope that's not the practice as folks move on.


I can say, I haven't seen as many ladies in the crowd since Core came about...

jin choung
03-23-2009, 07:27 PM
nonsence...there is absolutely no way you can calculate like that.

I think that if 9.6 was good enough last month for "most" users it will be good at the end of the year too...and im sure that they will ALL take a good look at CORE before they decide to leave...

its not even BETA yet...i mean, come on.


and i dont even believe you will leave us Jin...in the worst case scenario you will find another app to work with (and im sure you already have) and still, even if that another application provides you everything you ask for...you will return here to see what CORE is all about at Q4.

i did say "for now". i'm not making any binding commitments. i'm just saying i'm not sold as of now. they've done almost everything in their power to keep me from being sold and instead sowed seeds of worst possible scenarios with their silence.

as for my initial statement, it's right on - hr said there are several hundred in core now. i'm saying that's gonna be far far less than the total lw user population (unless the situation is much worse than i thought) and most of that group is still not hardcore.

we're standing with our arms crossed, unimpressed by the smoke and mirrors and delaying and hemming and hawing. and we want to fing see what they wanna sell.

and sure, i'll check back in q4. but at this point, i'm expecting that my estimation of the status of CORE will prove to be dead on if not even a bit generous.

jin

the3dwiz
03-23-2009, 07:33 PM
Actualy, it seams they came not as far in the last 2 month, that they are able to show a little glimps of what is possible with core right now. ( Rotation this .... Dragon in the Viewport? If it gets very, very far, maby manipulating this high poly object?) If its dooing this as good as they say, why they dont show it? I just wondering??? And i wonder then, how far they want to be in Q4.

jin choung
03-23-2009, 07:36 PM
Many stayed before to berate those who stated no ill will. Hope that's not the practice as folks move on.


don't have to worry about me. i don't even understand why anyone would do that.

i've never berated anyone who has gone core. that is COMPLETELY their prerogative. all i state is my personal dissatisfaction (and perhaps the dissatisfaction of the like minded) at the current tabula rasa state of core.

jin

jin choung
03-23-2009, 07:38 PM
If its dooing this as good as they say, why they dont show it? I just wondering??? And i wonder then, how far they want to be in Q4.

haha.... you just perfectly articulated the thing most of us naysayers are thinking.

and newtek MUST understand - that's EXACTLY what we're thinking.

jin

the3dwiz
03-23-2009, 07:45 PM
Hey Jin, i only can say, u have hit the nail many many time on the head in previous posts! (As far as i see it)
Im very uncomfortable with the whole story as far! For my tough its not indicating bright things.

jin choung
03-23-2009, 08:00 PM
Im very uncomfortable with the whole story as far!

yup. most of us are uncomfortable. we'll just have to hang on until they relax their tight fisted grip on their precioussss information.

jin

Sekhar
03-23-2009, 08:37 PM
i really really really loathe this about newtek communication. complete lack of clarity and almost CREATES fanboy vs. gadfly antagonism because of the rorshach tests that are their statements.

ugh. wtf.

why is CLARITY so difficult?

Yeah, seems like a communication problem to me (from messaging to copywriting). Wonder if NT is understaffed in Marketing.

hrgiger
03-23-2009, 08:57 PM
nope. easier than that. you say there are a couple of hundred in core now. i'm just comparing that to total number of lw users.

most of us are leaving it for now.

jin

I never said there are a couple hundred in CORE now. There are actually several hundred in CORE now. And just what is the total number of LW users? I guess that's the hard numbers I was after.
It seems to me that there are still many who would upgrade now if they had the money to do so.

Bill_Evans
03-23-2009, 10:04 PM
and sure, i'll check back in q4. but at this point, i'm expecting that my estimation of the status of CORE will prove to be dead on if not even a bit generous.



Actually I'm fairly sure at Siggraph the members of Hardcore will be strolling down Bourbon laughing about how far wrong your estimation was even at that point.
-Bill

jin choung
03-23-2009, 10:29 PM
Actually I'm fairly sure at Siggraph the members of Hardcore will be strolling down Bourbon laughing about how far wrong your estimation was even at that point.
-Bill

you say that with what insider knowledge? or if not with ANY, just sheer, blind faith? good luck with that.

as i said a few posts back, THEIR SILENCE SPEAKS VOLUMES. the fact that they promised more info soon and have just clammed the f up... when revealing more and getting people positive would improve business while staying quiet alienates? yeah... sorry... i call your bluff.

anyhoo... we'll see won't we? i'll even hand you a handkerchief when you're sobbing in the levy and refrain from kicking a man when he's down (if it must be said, this is no indication or intimation of any kind of physical assault but merely a figure of speech...).

jin

jin choung
03-23-2009, 10:32 PM
I never said there are a couple hundred in CORE now. There are actually several hundred in CORE now.

same thing. whatever the "several" ends up being, i'm sure it's FAR less than total lw users. as for what those numbers are, i assume you are under the good graces of newtek for being a believer - ask them.

or if not, simply double your number of hardcore members. if THAT'S the total population of lw users, we're doomed.

jin

p.s. so what IS "several"? i'm not privvy....

Bill_Evans
03-23-2009, 10:43 PM
yeah... sorry... i call your bluff.



Oh forget calling my bluff Jin, put your money where your mouth is, or actually come to Siggraph and see for yourself. Just because you think the sky is falling, doesnt mean the rest of us need to buy in on your theory. This is going to be as easy as taking money from gamblers at MGM.
-Bill

jin choung
03-23-2009, 10:58 PM
Oh forget calling my bluff Jin, put your money where your mouth is, or actually come to Siggraph and see for yourself. Just because you think the sky is falling, doesnt mean the rest of us need to buy in on your theory. This is going to be as easy as taking money from gamblers at MGM.
-Bill

again, what "facts" do you base your own optimism eh? just because you think things are rosy don't mean jack squat either.

and further, i'm qualifying my statements from appearances. you are making unequivocal statements of future prophecy... for some reason.

so what's the deal nostradamus? what have you got? bupkus? zilch? nada? why are you not answering the question of WHERE YOUR OPTIMISM COMES FROM AND WHAT IT IS BEING BASED ON?

or are you playing newtek's smoke and mirror game too? speaking without saying anything TOO?

gah... geez... why do you guys all sound the same? it's BORING. stop it. say something interesting.

(you don't have a mustache do you?)

jin

hrgiger
03-23-2009, 11:00 PM
same thing. whatever the "several" ends up being, i'm sure it's FAR less than total lw users. as for what those numbers are, i assume you are under the good graces of newtek for being a believer - ask them.

or if not, simply double your number of hardcore members. if THAT'S the total population of lw users, we're doomed.
jin


I guess what I"m saying is that in the end, I think most current LW users will jump on board. Some are waiting for more a little more info, some are waiting for the money, and others will wait until they're sure it can provide the functionality they need. Maybe for some, it won't even be this year depending on what CORE has to offer in its earliest stage of development (1.0). Maybe for some, it won't be at all. You'll always have that.
Lest you forget, I'm talking about the number of LW users who are current CORE members only after a month and a half of it's announcement and with a limited amount of info available. I suspect there will be a steady infusion of more members as more is revealed about CORE. Why do you buy? Because you hear something you wanted to hear or see something you wanted to see. Newtek just hasn't given everyone them the info they need yet to sign up. In the coming weeks/months, there is a good chance they will.
There's that word again- doomed. Spooky language. To use your words...Ack.

Sekhar
03-23-2009, 11:10 PM
In the thread Have you joined hardcore yet? (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94826), the first person was 5902 and the last, 6698. The numbers are very likely sequential because the last two on the thread were 6697 and 6698. If that's the case we have nearly 800 sign-ups (6698 - 5902 = 796) at the minimum. That's quite a few. Anyone has numbers outside this range?

jin choung
03-23-2009, 11:11 PM
Lest you forget, I'm talking about the number of LW users who are current CORE members only after a month and a half of it's announcement and with a limited amount of info available.

and that's all we're talking about right now.

i'm not saying that core is doomed. but i'm saying that we (THE MAJORITY) are NOT BITING NOW and whatever this prebuy campaign is SUPPOSED to be, it's kindofa clusterf.

and it's because they're sitting on whatever information they have.

and again, to articulate what we gadflies are thinking - they don't want to perjure themselves by lying and they don't want to give up the facts cuz they don't look none too good.

i'm not even coming down on what core is supposed to be or what the plan is.

i'm just saying this is all a big clusterf now. because they're doing this badly. because they're selling something that's not done and that's not GONNA BE DONE by q4 and they're possibly doing more harm than good by going this route.

by doing what they always do badly. try to start off on a fresh foot and then retrench into their tired exhausting no information ways. and this time, any TRICKLE of information evidently comes at a price. ack indeed.

it's alienating, off-putting and clumsy.

THAT'S what i'm saying.

jin

jin choung
03-23-2009, 11:13 PM
In the thread Have you joined hardcore yet? (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94826), the first person was 5902 and the last, 6698. The numbers are very likely sequential because the last two on the thread were 6697 and 6698. If that's the case we have nearly 800 sign-ups (6698 - 5902 = 796) at the minimum. That's quite a few. Anyone has numbers outside this range?

anyone in the hardcore forums can easily just look at how many members there are. so what's the tally folks?

jin

bryguy2
03-23-2009, 11:13 PM
I wouldnt count on those numbers... not saying that they dont have 800 people, but NT wouldnt want the number to be tracked that easily by us.

jin choung
03-23-2009, 11:21 PM
also,

hr, if core will be as good as you (and emphatically - bill) believe, then you don't have to play public relations.

it'll knock people's socks off no matter what the non-believers have said.

it will stand on its own merit.

it seems to me that this "perception problem" only needs to be a concern if it's closer to what *i* think it is and will be by q4.

THEN pr becomes perhaps PARAMOUNT! they better spin it like a top and lipstick up the pig... not that it would help much... cuz then, here comes the other shoe droppin' in at mach 2.

jin