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skywalker113
03-10-2009, 11:53 PM
I am trying to create a character that can move its arm around at any angle and deform correctly. So far, I have been having lots of deforming problems. I can get the character to deform correctly with its arm straight out, going forward. But when it goes down first then forward its all weird.

Is there certain cuts I should do in order to get a better result?


I also have gimble lock problems. With quatro I can rotate the arm where ever I want it in the frame im in, but when I do a animation, its still using the same parent rotation.


Help is very appreciated

SplineGod
03-11-2009, 12:23 AM
How are the bones setup? Are you using weight maps? What is the subdivision order set to? Shoulders typically cant rotate that high. They can usually only rotate up so that the arm is parallel to the ground and after that the collar bone and scapula do the lifting.
Use two bones instead of one on joints that may get gimbal lock or set the coord mode to world and apply quaternian booster to that joint.

skywalker113
03-11-2009, 09:29 PM
I am using weightmaps. The subdivision is set to last.

I had 3 bones. A shoulder bone, bicep bone, and forearm bone, but I recently tried only using 2 bones. Every angle I move it sinks the arm into the body. Unless I move the positions along with the rotation of the bones. I can get the arm looking good at one angle, but not the other. I keep going back and forth between modeler and layout remaking bones with skelegons and tweaking weightmaps. I have tried using a little bone in the shoulder to keep it together better.

The images show the shoulder weightmap and the bicep weight map.

SplineGod
03-11-2009, 09:36 PM
I would try it without the weightmaps first. I also would do the
bone setup in layout rather then skelegons in modeler.

geothefaust
03-12-2009, 12:18 AM
Hey skywalker,

A couple of things. First, Larry is spot on. Try it without the weight maps first. If you need them, then add them. You'll save yourself some time, and a whole LOT of hassle. :)

Secondly, your shoulder needs to be moved outward a bit. The rotational axis doesn't seem to be quite in the right spot.

Thirdly, add more bones for the shoulder. The reason is because if you do not, you'll have gimbal lock in the shoulder, and that will be a huge problem. Simply create your shoulder bone, then clone it and parent the clone to the original, then continue on creating the rest of the arm bones. (I actually go a step further to create one for a pole as well). What this will do is allow you to avoid gimbal lock by using one bone for the lateral movement of the arm, and one for the vertical movement of the arm.

Fourthly, Before actually creating the arm bones, put one in for the shoulder area, and use that bone for when you want to lift the arm above a 90 degree angle. As Larry pointed out, this will simulate the movement of the scapula.

I hope this information helps!


PS- Did you use a camera to take photos of your monitor? I really looks like you did. :) Printscreen key on your keyboard?

skywalker113
03-12-2009, 04:10 PM
Is there a tutorial for doing this somewhere?

SplineGod
03-12-2009, 06:15 PM
I have some free tutorials here:
http://www.vfxcast.com/playlist/lw_rigging/
and a very in depth course here including support:
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/professionalcharacterseries.htmhttp://www.vfxcast.com/playlist/lw_rigging/

skywalker113
03-13-2009, 11:03 AM
How can I post a scene and object file of the model? When I try to make it a attachment it says it's invalid. Do you need to make it a diffrent file type somehow?

Giacomo99
03-13-2009, 11:58 AM
Try zipping the folder.

skywalker113
03-16-2009, 06:51 PM
I want to start making bones in layout, but everytime I try, the mesh really gets deformed. Just turning the bones on will morph the object. I am not using any weight maps in the picture. Can anyone point out what I am missing? Also, is there a way to mirror bones in layout?

SplineGod
03-16-2009, 07:29 PM
Are the bones rested? Do you have a rest pose?
Are all the bones active? Are you sure no bones are assigned to any weight maps?

Giacomo99
03-16-2009, 07:45 PM
Also, when you're initially setting up the bones, go to Setup—General—Bones and select "Bones Off," which will prevent the model from deforming as the bones are created. Once you're ready to go, rest all the bones and select "Bones On." Mirroring bones is done under Setup—Edit—Mirror Hierarchy.

Far and away the best tutorial I've found for basic bone setups is Jonny Gorden's book Lightwave 3D 8 Cartoon Character Creation. You should be able to find a used copy cheap on Amazon.

What makes the learning curve so steep here is that the already-abstruse topics of rigging and weight mapping interlock conceptually with the process of modeling—that is, if one's model is poorly built, it can be pretty much impossible to get it deform right. Fortunately if you study Gorden's book carefully, it will all be explained.

Hopper
03-16-2009, 08:08 PM
And one other tiny tiny tiny little thing...

Do a screen capture instead of taking an actual picture of your monitor. I kinda had to chuckle a bit and your "screen grabs". But no worries, whatever you are more comfortable with. It just makes it easier for us to see the details.

For Windows, just use Alt+PrintScrn, then paste it to whatever paint program your using, then save it as a PNG or JPG, etc..
(and you might want to make the resolution a bit smaller so it isn't so large - 800x600 or even 1024x768 would do just fine).
If you want to include everything, just zip it up so the upload manager will take it instead of giving you the "invalid file type" error.

Cheers.

IMI
03-18-2009, 06:21 PM
I have some free tutorials here:
http://www.vfxcast.com/playlist/lw_rigging/
and a very in depth course here including support:
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/professionalcharacterseries.htmhttp://www.vfxcast.com/playlist/lw_rigging/

Hey Larry, that stuff of yours at Vfx Cast is great, really, really helpful - I don't know where I'd be in rigging if it weren't for your videos. :thumbsup:
Thanks for the link to all of those vids together, too. :)

Since I abandoned the idea of using weight maps in most cases, things have gone allot smoother for me - those hold or control bones work wonders and are much easier and more quickly adjusted than a weight map.

EDIT:
Your second link gives a 404 error, though, and should be just http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/professionalcharacterseries.htm

You copied both links into one hyperlink, back to back, and it's trying to read two URL's as one.

SplineGod
03-18-2009, 06:51 PM
Im glad to know the videos have been helpful.
Keep in mind that I do use weight maps but only after
exhausting other methods first AND determining if I need them at all.
Another nice thing about the hold bones is that you can animate them. Thanks for the heads up btw. :)

IMI
03-18-2009, 08:17 PM
Im glad to know the videos have been helpful.
Keep in mind that I do use weight maps but only after
exhausting other methods first AND determining if I need them at all.
Another nice thing about the hold bones is that you can animate them. Thanks for the heads up btw. :)

I've had to use weight maps on the fingers of the figure I'm currently trying to rig, but otherwise I've been using your suggestions for the hold bones. And yes, the nice thing about some of those hold bones is sometimes they have their own nice little effects on the mesh other than just anchoring down a part.
I love the way in that one video where you completely beat that elbow into submission. That's pretty cool. :)

SplineGod
03-18-2009, 09:59 PM
Generally I try and spread the fingers apart, arms, legs etc a bit to reduce the possibility of getting any bone cross influence. Simple things like that are easier to do generally then going down the weight map road. :)

IMI
03-19-2009, 03:48 AM
Generally I try and spread the fingers apart, arms, legs etc a bit to reduce the possibility of getting any bone cross influence. Simple things like that are easier to do generally then going down the weight map road. :)

Thanks Larry, I'll try to do that in the future. :)

Unfortunately the fingers are very close together. The legs are too, but I got around that with hold bones, but the fingers didn't seem to want to cooperate, so I had no choice.
Although I certainly can't say for sure it can't be done, but I just got aggravated trying. Seems every little hold bone I tried to add solved one problem but caused another.

SplineGod
03-19-2009, 02:35 PM
You might try spreading the fingers and legs apart a bit. Its pretty easy to rotate the base bones of each finger and leg to make them match up again. You dont even have to turn the bones off. Just rotate the slightly on frame 0 and hit the R key as you do slight rotations. It will rerest the bone and its children making it easy to tweak them.

IMI
03-19-2009, 04:37 PM
Ah... well, thanks again. Seems they don't have to be spread too much to give a better effect, to cooperate better.

SplineGod
03-19-2009, 05:21 PM
Usually it doenst take too much especially if the falloff is high

IMI
03-20-2009, 02:07 AM
Larry, in this video, >HERE< (http://www.vfxcast.com/media/336/Character_Rig_Demo/), you say it's a demo for your upcoming "Fundamentals of Rigging for LightWave 9", part of your "revamped character series" videos. Is that available anywhere yet, or are you still working on it? I couldn't find it on your site.
Although I know that video was uploaded only late last August and I know those videos must take a good while to make, edit, and produce, especially when you're busy working too.

Thanks again. :)

SplineGod
03-20-2009, 04:39 AM
Its this one here:
http://www.kurvstudios.com/lightwave/rigging.php
Though personally these days I much prefer IKBoost :)

IMI
03-20-2009, 05:59 AM
Oh cool, thanks. :)
I was looking in your site for it, didn't think to check Kurv. I have to wait a couple weeks, but I'll definitely be buying that one.

Yeah, I have to learn all about IK Boost too. You might say I need to bone up on it. :D