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View Full Version : Feel sick just bought MAX 2009......



OnlineRender
03-08-2009, 02:47 PM
Ok i spoke to my wife , she's not happy at me spending any money let alone the Sh!t loads of cash for Max .
but i went mental , "slightly drunk " credit card in one hand and beer in the other , and thought feek it ,I need the software "dont I ? " .

Its sitting infront of me at the moment , which is kinda strange i should be posting on MAX forums but hey , i reckon people who can use LW by default must know something .

First Impressions

looks good , i tryed the demo first and got to grips with it rather quickly if you can opperate LW you can fly a spaceship my opinion .

I might vanish into autodesk forums for a few months sorry NT .

still feel sick , its a big gammble and alot of hard cash or in my case electronic .

you think i done the right thing ???????????? cringe >????>

Dexter2999
03-08-2009, 03:33 PM
buyers remorse

You may not feel 100% until you crank out something to pay for it (or part of it) that you couldn't have done with LW or until you get a job using 3D Max. That is when you will feel justified and vindicated for shelling out the cash. Until then, just learn it as best you can and try not to think about it.

archijam
03-08-2009, 03:44 PM
Just keep scrolling those menus on the right up and down, and open and close the extra hidden menus, that's what I did with MAX, great stress relief.

Hey at least you have perspective in your clipped renders now, I would love to have that in the current project I'm working on in LW ..

hrgiger
03-08-2009, 03:45 PM
What compelled you to buy 3D Max? Did you just have $3500 that was burning a hole in your pocket?

Right on the verge of Newtek kicking it into high gear with Core. Good call.

SplineGod
03-08-2009, 04:20 PM
The bottom line is that you can only bank on whats available now. If you use Max and make money with it etc then you probably made the right choice.

kopperdrake
03-08-2009, 04:21 PM
He's already mentioned in another thread that he's going to be looking for work soon and in the UK Max and Maya are more common when it comes to jobs. It's true, especially in games, though as a freelancer producing everything in-house no one really cares what you use and imho LW is the best for that :)

Chris S. (Fez)
03-08-2009, 04:22 PM
Hmmm. I'm thinking you should have purchased Core and spent the rest on roses and beer.

Having said that, if the UK market demands Max then maybe you made a reasonable investment. Did you complete the 30 day no risk Max trial?

cresshead
03-08-2009, 04:28 PM
well hope you also bought subscription as max 2010 is due march 16th!

and 3dsmax is really cool...then again lightwave is also cool...that's why i have both!

and zbrush!

hrgiger
03-08-2009, 05:42 PM
The bottom line is that you can only bank on whats available now. If you use Max and make money with it etc then you probably made the right choice.

Yes absolutely provided you are indeed going to make money with it. Now if you're skipping a mortgage payment or two to buy software that you just hope to make money with, that's a different thing altogether.
And isn't Lightwave available now? Let me check...yes I have it right here.

OnlineRender
03-08-2009, 06:20 PM
ye i tried it for 8 days , felt comfortable , the cash you ask , is from student disability loan so ye i did have a few grand free , i would have bought top of range pc with it , but i belive software costs more but in the end is more productive , i want to be legit , i cringe at giving cash to Autodesk but inturn its an investment i think may pay dividence , as for COre well thats to be seen ... i reckon it will good ,but i want to get into games and maX is what i need .

03-08-2009, 08:43 PM
I would not have bought a full copy for personal use unless you actually have a contract to use it. No game company I've ever known expects you to own your own copy. So long as you know how to use it, they don't care. Unless you are doing complex TD work, there's really not much to have to know about it, so owning it probably won't give you any sort of edge over anyone else. Getting into games is still very much about what you can do (portfolio/reel/programming demos) not about what software you use.

I've been working in games for over 10 years and I still don't own max. Granted I do own xsi and maya, and several others. But none of those are necessary either and I've chosen to stop upgrading my studio apps altogether. I just don't need them at home and I'm not doing any freelance.

As cresshead mentioned, since you did buy it, I hope you went with subscription. Otherwise I might have held out for 2010 - it looks to be one of the better releases in years. Hopefully you won't need that money later either, because autodesk does not let you transfer or sell licenses at all.

Since you did buy it and there's no turning back, I'd say learn it quick and start producing with it. It'll definitely take some of the sting out of the cost.

Dexter2999
03-08-2009, 10:38 PM
ye i tried it for 8 days , felt comfortable , the cash you ask , is from student disability loan so ye i did have a few grand free , i would have bought top of range pc with it , but i belive software costs more but in the end is more productive , i want to be legit , i cringe at giving cash to Autodesk but inturn its an investment i think may pay dividence , as for COre well thats to be seen ... i reckon it will good ,but i want to get into games and maX is what i need .

Hardware will become obsolete, software will too, but it will leave you with skills, whereas hardware leaves you with something else for your wife to complain about. ;)

toby
03-09-2009, 12:04 AM
Just keep scrolling those menus on the right up and down, and open and close the extra hidden menus, that's what I did with MAX, great stress relief.

And patiently hunt for a spot where the cursor turns into a hand so you can grab it :D

Well, it should be very helpful for getting into games. That and a few great plugins are the only good things about it =P

DiedonD
03-09-2009, 01:09 AM
So! Max makes people feel sick huh :thumbsdow

geo_n
03-09-2009, 01:09 AM
Since you bought it and there's no return policy on it, use it.
You won't regret it. There's tons of jobs available for max users. Tons and tons!! So learn it fast.

dnch
03-09-2009, 04:43 AM
well thats the thing i dont understand too.. why buy this software if you are looking for job? there is many ways to learn the software without actualy paing for it..
another thing is freelance work, when the software your use (i meany the copy itself).. is making you money.. but just for learning purposes to get job in industry.. i dont understand that

i can understand someone buing for example zbrush.. as it is cheap in comparsion with MAX...
LW is very afordable too..

.. on the other hand.. after seeing dosens of gnomon dvds.. i really like max interface so much more than MAYAs..
and after seeing some stuff some people can do with it ... i couldnt imagine i could only open so polygon heavy scenes with LW (for example Marek Denko..really check his stuff out)

.. on the third hand .. i could not imagine working without fprime:)


I would not have bought a full copy for personal use unless you actually have a contract to use it. No game company I've ever known expects you to own your own copy. So long as you know how to use it, they don't care. Unless you are doing complex TD work, there's really not much to have to know about it, so owning it probably won't give you any sort of edge over anyone else. Getting into games is still very much about what you can do (portfolio/reel/programming demos) not about what software you use.

I've been working in games for over 10 years and I still don't own max. Granted I do own xsi and maya, and several others. But none of those are necessary either and I've chosen to stop upgrading my studio apps altogether. I just don't need them at home and I'm not doing any freelance.

As cresshead mentioned, since you did buy it, I hope you went with subscription. Otherwise I might have held out for 2010 - it looks to be one of the better releases in years. Hopefully you won't need that money later either, because autodesk does not let you transfer or sell licenses at all.

Since you did buy it and there's no turning back, I'd say learn it quick and start producing with it. It'll definitely take some of the sting out of the cost.

Matt
03-09-2009, 05:01 AM
Ahhhhhhh the old drunken internet purchase! I've fallen foul to that many a time!

archijam
03-09-2009, 05:05 AM
Ahhhhhhh the old drunken internet purchase! I've fallen foul to that many a time!

In between drunken interface redesigns ;) ?

J/k - love them.

phil lawson
03-09-2009, 05:12 AM
If your a student, its only ~96 for a years license and you get max2009, mudbox2009, motionbuilder2009, combustion2008 and cleaner included.

shrox
03-09-2009, 05:15 AM
The stack in Max is whack.

It's OK when working on your own projects, but if you have to work on a file that someone else has made, the stack can be very difficult to deal with, especially if they just aren't that efficient in their workflow. Also, the surface interface is rather tedious to use.

cresshead
03-09-2009, 05:19 AM
ye i tried it for 8 days , felt comfortable , the cash you ask , is from student disability loan so ye i did have a few grand free , i would have bought top of range pc with it , but i belive software costs more but in the end is more productive , i want to be legit , i cringe at giving cash to Autodesk but inturn its an investment i think may pay dividence , as for COre well thats to be seen ... i reckon it will good ,but i want to get into games and maX is what i need .

your on subscription yes?
go get c.a.t from your download area and also go get puppetshop as they are also now free...loads of rigging opions for max thesedays and all are free now..

there's a load of 3dsmax training now over on digital tutors also as well as the FREE e-learning paks with your subscription for 3dsmax:thumbsup:

3dsMax and Lightwave Core will probably have a similar workflow for modeling so whilst your learning max you should be compfrotable in core once it hits the streets come the end of the year.

for the u.k. and in particular 'games and architectual previz' 3dsmax is the most widly used in studios.

any questions you can drop me a p.m.

cresshead
03-09-2009, 05:22 AM
The stack in Max is whack.

It's OK when working on your own projects, but if you have to work on a file that someone else has made, the stack can be very difficult to deal with, especially if they just aren't that efficient in their workflow. Also, the surface interface is rather tedious to use.

you CAN of course collapse the stack and you back into 'lightwave/modo mode':D

just remember not to colapse the turbosmooth too!:twak:
also if you have turbosmooth set to isoline display and collapse the stack you'll get poly errors..so don't do it!!!

toby
03-09-2009, 05:29 AM
well thats the thing i dont understand too.. why buy this software if you are looking for job? there is many ways to learn the software without actualy paing for it..
another thing is freelance work, when the software your use (i meany the copy itself).. is making you money.. but just for learning purposes to get job in industry.. i dont understand that
Despite what some people say, there are a LOT of employers who'll hire someone over you if they know the software that the employers uses. And there is a big difference between saying you know how to use it, and having a demo reel that's full of it (no pun intended :)). It also depends on what your current skill level is, if you're a veteran it doesn't matter at all, but if you're just starting out, you better have something to show.


.. on the other hand.. after seeing dosens of gnomon dvds.. i really like max interface so much more than MAYAs..

After using both interfaces for years, I'd prefer water-boarding than use Max. Even hardcore max guys despise the material editor, and nothing is click-and-drag... it's click-WAIT-TEN-SECONDS-drag. Everything you do, except on simple scenes, forces you to wait, and wait, and wait. Keyboard shortcuts stop working because the cursor is in some phantom field somewhere, opening a second instance of the program brings the machine to a screeching halt, if not BSD... it's everything you'd expect from a ten-year old core. I can believe that Maya has a slightly steeper learning curve, but at least after that it doesn't remain a royal PITA to use. Sorry for the rant.

cresshead
03-09-2009, 05:39 AM
well nothing's 'perfect' and there's some p.i.t.a. new bits like the new select by name window..i've set my shortcut keys back to use the old one as i prefer it to be clean to look at and easy to find stuff...and the steering wheel is just stupid!

as for scrolling command panel..well that's only if you have a small screen res...if you have a 24" monitor you can pull it out 2 or 3 deep or simply put it on another monitor.

still i prefer how max and lightwave handles creating a falloff map than the right royal P.I.T.A that maya needs to be 'programmed' to do in mel....

in the end it's swings and roundabouts...that why i have lightwave AND 3dsmax

shrox
03-09-2009, 05:46 AM
I do not like Max in a box,

I will not use it with a fox,

I want to leave it out in the rain,

Maybe to be run over by a train.

Word.

Matt
03-09-2009, 05:50 AM
In between drunken interface redesigns ;) ?

J/k - love them.

I work better on a few bevvies! :D

cresshead
03-09-2009, 05:54 AM
worth a read>

http://www.cgenie.com/cgenie-content/115-cgenie-interviews-autodesk.html

Iain
03-09-2009, 06:14 AM
The deal is done so get on with learning it inside out. It's a great piece of kit, no matter what some here say.:hey:

You'll be very employable if you know Max + any other app.
And you have a full working license for freelance work.

As I've said before, our business costs are comparatively low and these days, even the cost of Max is easily recouped after a few jobs.

shrox
03-09-2009, 06:47 AM
I can use all three, I just prefer Lightwave. I often model in LW, then dump it into Max if that is what the client requires. I do like the visible mapping icon in Max.

Andyjaggy
03-09-2009, 10:21 AM
I've been having to learn Max at work for the past couple of months. After the initial extremely painful learning new software stage I've started to actually like Max. I still prefer Lightwave and wish I could use it instead, but there is a lot to like about Max as well.

The things I really miss from Lightwave are

1)Modeling (I actually still model in lightwave and just import into max, for some reason I absolutely can't stand modeling in max.

2)Surface editor. Max surface editor blows. Lightwave has the best surface editor I have ever used. I love it.

3)Rendering. Need I say more. :)

OnlineRender
03-09-2009, 10:22 AM
In order to gain my disabilty loan i had to give good cause and justification to the approaite parties plus i need to show recepts or proof or purchase , so i went for the top end of the market saying i need MAX , which to a certain extent is true , plus i saved a few bucks on it in the end ! and i love having new software to get lost in , Lightwave was a must due to University lecturing in it , which may i add is rather ,read this from a page and get on with it !

Disability * High Deslixa "you would have thought they would have made it an easier word ! ." hence why i went into animation and not programming .

jasonwestmas
03-09-2009, 10:48 AM
HEHE, sucker. JK I have to use many apps, you shouldn't worry about it if you really did need it. It's not a bad application by any means, it does get some things done. I like biped for game animation, really fast and easy to setup. Of course I would never buy max just for amusement.

shrox
03-09-2009, 10:57 AM
HEHE, sucker. JK I have to use many apps, you shouldn't worry about it if you really did need it. It's not a bad application by any means, it does get some things done. I like biped for game animation, really fast and easy to setup. Of course I would never buy max just for amusement.

The hands on the Max biped are not very good, the palm does not fold, and it made the surgical sim I worked on a pain. Much of it was about how to properly hold the tools, and without a proper palm model, it just didn't look right.

jasonwestmas
03-09-2009, 10:59 AM
Yeah, which is why I would only use Biped for some game characters. For everything else I would probably stick to the max bones or lightwave.

shrox
03-09-2009, 11:05 AM
Yeah, which is why I would only use Biped for some game characters. For everything else I would probably stick to the max bones or lightwave.

Hence the problem with the Max stack, makes it difficult to fix a problem in somebody else's file...we would have had to rebuild everything, but the US military was satisfied, they paid for the sim.

cresshead
03-09-2009, 11:21 AM
The hands on the Max biped are not very good, the palm does not fold, and it made the surgical sim I worked on a pain. Much of it was about how to properly hold the tools, and without a proper palm model, it just didn't look right.

:agree: the lack of a split palm section make it a pain to hold stuff

still max also has puppetshop for free now>>
http://www.puppetshop.com/puppetshop.html

and c.a.t...also free if your a max user on subs
http://www.softimage.com/products/cat/

jasonwestmas
03-09-2009, 11:26 AM
:agree: the lack of a split palm section make it a pain to hold stuff

still max also has puppetshop for free now>>
http://www.puppetshop.com/puppetshop.html

and c.a.t...also free if your a max user on subs
http://www.softimage.com/products/cat/

Max is definitely different these days. Crazy amount of options.

bobakabob
03-09-2009, 11:43 AM
Shame you didn't blow all that wad on XSI which imho is vastly superior to this clunky horror of an app, but with a combined knowledge of Max and Lightwave your chances of finding work in the UK will doubtless be enhanced.

It will be expensive to keep up though - upgrades costs are eye-watering and if you don't shell out those nice folk at Autoduck will have you buy the app all over again. How much is the subscription and what do you get for it apart from borderline destitution? I take it you couldn't have applied for a student edition?

You don't have to model in Max, which like others here find a royal pain, battling through endless panels and 'modifier stacks' but Mental Ray is capable of sublime renders and you have some nifty animation solutions at your fingertips.

Andyjaggy
03-09-2009, 12:00 PM
Glads I'm not the only one who finds modeling in Max a pain the arse. I shouldn't have to wade through panel and modifiers, and stacks just to model something. Maybe I am missing something but it seems really clunky to me.

The stack seems great for some things. The ability to go back and change an early operation and have it update thorough the stack is pretty cool. Could be a life saver in some situations. But. When you are just modeling it just gets in the way.

bobakabob
03-09-2009, 12:08 PM
Glads I'm not the only one who finds modeling in Max a pain the arse. I shouldn't have to wade through panel and modifiers, and stacks just to model something. Maybe I am missing something but it seems really clunky to me.

The stack seems great for some things. The ability to go back and change an early operation and have it update thorough the stack is pretty cool. Could be a life saver in some situations. But. When you are just modeling it just gets in the way.

I found modelling in Max an inspiration killer. In the late 90s I was once dumb enough to try figuring out nurbs when it was flavour of the month in CG world and nearly ended up wearing a one piece canvas wraparound. I couldn't believe how superior Lightwave's poly modelling was in comparison and dumped my Max student edition in the bin. Yet there are games artists out there who perform what can only be described as black magic and actually produce professional looking models... in Max. It's a crazy planet.

OnlineRender
03-09-2009, 01:35 PM
Ive got XSI but its an old old version , i used to mod games for SOF , thats how i got into animation in the first place , well first it was quake 1 maps , i was so proud at the time , my rocket arena got used in a massive LAN party in manchester but that was many a moon ago .

I learned LW cause my UNI lectured in it , it wasnt threw choice , although granted i do like using LW ..

Power cuts every 20 minutes going of my head

Andyjaggy
03-09-2009, 01:52 PM
Yeah everytime I buckle down and say I am going to model something in Max I give up after about 20 minutes. Maybe I am just missing something but I can't stand it. Thanks goodness for OBJ and FBX files. Sigh.

calilifestyle
03-09-2009, 01:54 PM
i like max. i miss it so much.

wacom
03-09-2009, 02:13 PM
Only in the "first world" would people form a support group around a software purchase. This IMHO, is as odd as a thread comes!

You bought it, and for some reason feel guilty, and want us to help you rationalize an irrational purchase (as so many purchases are- even without libation).

Let us know how it goes. Personally I would have bought a lot of other apps before MAX, since I have no desire to get into the "viz" biz on that level...oh well...

OnlineRender
03-09-2009, 02:22 PM
I wouldn't go as far to say guilty !, LW is like a girlfriend to me and I feel i have cheated on her , but as for software , the best product i bought for value was Zbrush , the reason i post which i may say can be random and strange at times are

A) get noticed
B) get job
C) get advice -as with most on forums

I spent alot of cash ,but i had no other choice , trust me if i had that kinda cash i wouldnt go shopping for software . but the cash was there and it needed spent , you could say im helping the UK economy in the long run , plus i do belive its a good ROI .

cresshead
03-09-2009, 02:26 PM
i put a neck brace on ready for the backlash of my next comment....:devil:

"if you don't like 3dsmax then your going to hate lightwave core"

:D

OnlineRender
03-09-2009, 02:33 PM
LOL , i spoke to a member of the Newtek team not that long ago , and i'll reitterate what i said to him .

How can you hate something that is breaking barriers and technology , ive always been a strong beliver of even if its rubbish its a step foward .

but i can understand your comment !

Andyjaggy
03-09-2009, 02:36 PM
i put a neck brace on ready for the backlash of my next comment....:devil:

"if you don't like 3dsmax then your going to hate lightwave core"

:D

Well we will just have to wait and see won't we. :)

If modeling in Lightwave does turn out to be like Max.... well Modo it is for me then. :)

Besides the modeling Max is nice, I can even get used to the awful surface editor if I have to.

Iain
03-09-2009, 03:37 PM
Modelling in Max isn't at all intuitive. I think that's why a lot of the more 'artistic' types prefer LW.

On the other hand though, Max's modelling is incredibly flexible and accurate in experienced hands. Most of the best things that LWCad gave LW have been in Max for years.

Andyjaggy
03-09-2009, 04:05 PM
I do really really like the snapping in Max. Not quite as much as I like SPmove snapping, but it's definitely intuitive and works well.

pming
03-09-2009, 04:42 PM
Hiya.


Well we will just have to wait and see won't we. :)

If modeling in Lightwave does turn out to be like Max.... well Modo it is for me then. :)


The way I see the CORE modeling structure, is like this.

Normally in LW you, for example, create a polygon, extend it, bevel two sides, multishift the other 4 sides. If you beveled your first two sides the wrong way, you have to "undo" back to it...undoing your multishifting. This isn't so good.

Now, how CORE looks to me, is we can simply 'pop open' the "stack modifiers", look back to the bevel operation, and redo or delete them. If they have to be deleted, I'd guess we can reselect those poly's, bevel them how we want them and Bob's your uncle.

In short, I don't see it where you have to choose a modifier, 'insert' that into the stack, then use it...choose another modifier, insert it, use it...rinse/repeat. I see it more along the line of an XSI structure; where each thing you do is automatically 'added to the history/modifier stack', and you can go back to any point and modify that thing at any point, without destroying what you did previously or after that modification. (if that makes any sense).

At least, I hope it works that way. :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Andyjaggy
03-09-2009, 05:13 PM
Hiya.



The way I see the CORE modeling structure, is like this.

Normally in LW you, for example, create a polygon, extend it, bevel two sides, multishift the other 4 sides. If you beveled your first two sides the wrong way, you have to "undo" back to it...undoing your multishifting. This isn't so good.

Now, how CORE looks to me, is we can simply 'pop open' the "stack modifiers", look back to the bevel operation, and redo or delete them. If they have to be deleted, I'd guess we can reselect those poly's, bevel them how we want them and Bob's your uncle.

In short, I don't see it where you have to choose a modifier, 'insert' that into the stack, then use it...choose another modifier, insert it, use it...rinse/repeat. I see it more along the line of an XSI structure; where each thing you do is automatically 'added to the history/modifier stack', and you can go back to any point and modify that thing at any point, without destroying what you did previously or after that modification. (if that makes any sense).

At least, I hope it works that way. :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Yes that makes sense, and if it does work like that then we have the best of both worlds. But since Newtek seems completely unwilling or unable to give us any additional information on Core, and I'm not buying until they do, then I will just have to wait.

Silkrooster
03-09-2009, 05:38 PM
i put a neck brace on ready for the backlash of my next comment....:devil:

"if you don't like 3dsmax then your going to hate lightwave core"

:D

Oh I think I disagree on that one. Yeah I believe core will use some of the features, but I believe that core is going to stick to it roots in keeping it as simple as possible where it can. Newtek thinks too highly of its customer base. They will want to enhance what they have rather than just be a cheap clone of max or maya. Where that balance lays only Newtek knows.

bobakabob
03-09-2009, 06:09 PM
Yeah, they've repeatedly stated Core will be familiar to Lightwave users and the intuitive LW UI has always been the program's strength. So whilst borrowing some of the best features from Max, they're surely not going to turn LW into a clunky clone. What would be the point?

Max has always felt more like an engineer's rather than an artist's tool. Nevertheless the animation tools are good and despite the intriguing new 9.6 CA tools Lightwave has always lagged behind in this respect (even a built in LW autorigger would have been something).

I wonder if CORE will give Messiah a new lease of life... I'm seriously thinking of buying into it as an alternative to the pricey XSI, and spending time learning the tools. The demo is brilliant.

Online Render, you should model in Lightwave and animate in Max. Plus you have the opportunity of discovering the arcane mysteries of Mental Ray...

geo_n
03-09-2009, 11:22 PM
Glads I'm not the only one who finds modeling in Max a pain the arse. I shouldn't have to wade through panel and modifiers, and stacks just to model something. Maybe I am missing something but it seems really clunky to me.

The stack seems great for some things. The ability to go back and change an early operation and have it update thorough the stack is pretty cool. Could be a life saver in some situations. But. When you are just modeling it just gets in the way.

Imho modelling in max is similar to lw. Instead of spacebar just press 1-5 to toggle point, edge, etc. If just for poly and subd modelling they're the same. Move, extrude, bevel, etc.
The stack for modelling is super flexible not just for history. Ex, you can have different subd level per poly in one object. In lw If I make an object I can't make it just subd 2 and the others subd 6 if I hit tab. Or maybe I'm missing something in lw to control tab subd per poly. In max so easy. And viewport speed can't be compared.
Of course that's just for modelling. The stack can modify many things per element:D.

toby
03-10-2009, 12:06 AM
And of course there's the dreaded... Multi-Sub-Object monster!! D:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!

:D

geo_n
03-10-2009, 12:13 AM
And of course there's the dreaded... Multi-Sub-Object monster!! D:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!

:D

but that may be in Core, too. :thumbsup:
How can they implement modifier stack efficiently without subobject per object in a scene file? :D

AbnRanger
03-10-2009, 12:20 AM
You bought the right software, regardless of your digestion problems (eat more fiber maybe? :D). Provided you got the subscription, this is good timing. Otherwise, I would contact Autodesk and ask them if you don't qualify for a free upgrade to 2010. Seeing that you're less than 30 days from new release, I'd say they will probably oblige you.
The new viewport enhancement (near final render quality) is something NO-FREAKIN-BODY has right now...it's the future of 3D. Up til now, real-time viewport shaders wouldn't correspond with final rendering.
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/3ds_max_design_2010_more_with_metasl/
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/announcement_3ds_max_design_2010/

Now that Polyboost has been integrated in Max 2010, there's not a better modeling toolset anywhere, IMO (sneak peek videos here)...
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_shane/blog_detail/100_new_modeling_features/

All the knocks I hear from folks in this thread are more personal preferences rather than legitimate shortcomings. Afraid of scrolling command panels? Come on...really? There are a number of ways to address that if it bothers you. As Cresshead stated, you can expand the panel to 2, 3, 4 (or more) wide and undock them to another monitor if you like. It sounds like people who have little to no experience in Max complaining over non-issues. I guess right-click quad menus and transform gizmos (that you can enable/disable with a single keystroke) are downright spooky too, huh?

Fact is, Like XSI, Max's modeling toolset and mesh editing speed blew by LW Modeler some time ago. Newtek, realizing it is an area that's currently antiquated, is set to address it first, in the early CORE builds.....

As far as Max's material editor...if you like nodal surfacing, NodeJoe ( www.nodejoe.com ) has been available for some time, as well as a free Schematic Material Editor, for game dev's and Arch Viz you have Lumonix's ShaderFX...which the developer recently made it available to individual users for free (as well as PuppetShop). Mental Mill now ships with Max 2010, so there are plenty of good options there.

And of course there's C.A.T. (previously a $1k C.A. plugin):
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/announcement_3ds_max_design_2010/
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/tutorials/tutorial_index/cat_overview_part_2_animating_with_cat/

LW CORE, as exciting as it is to see this kind of change... is at the beginning stages of development still. It's an exciting time if you are a user of either or both, but you can't go wrong with Max...no matter what some here may say.

toby
03-10-2009, 12:46 AM
but that may be in Core, too. :thumbsup:
How can they implement modifier stack efficiently without subobject per object in a scene file? :D
To clarify, I was talking about the multi-sub-object in the material editor, which is the only way to have a different material per-polygon in max. Put materials per-polygon with uv maps, required even for planar mapping, and which can only be named with numbers, and you have an absolute nightmare from hell. LW's surface editor was absurdly superior even before it had nodes, so I'm really not worried.

DiedonD
03-10-2009, 01:24 AM
You bought the right software, regardless of your digestion problems (eat more fiber maybe? :D).


Hey Don

Nicely said on all counts I guess, cause I dont have and hate max. But if you were refering to Dyslexia, then that isnt a digestive problem :) . Its a learning one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia

People with dyslexia have a hard time reading! But just look at Onlinerenderer :) . He almost is going to have his PhD and types out quite well, showing that though it was a rough ride in reading and typing , hes made it quite nicely, even to a envious level of aPhD in Arts! :D

BTW

I know its been said before! But you dont need somekinda licence to teach LW right? No need to get an MA in arts for it? What do you guys that teach usually do in that regard? I know its a non academic course, but the academic ones always ask for somekinda certificate/permit! What do you do in that regard? How do you tell them that its not academic, and youre allowed to teach without any licence in a say University for instance!

Since all academic courses HAD to have their MA first! Im having somewhat tough time explaining to them, that we on the other hand dont need an MA, and that its a shortcut :) , that kinda agitates them a bit.

toby
03-10-2009, 01:42 AM
All the knocks I hear from folks in this thread are more personal preferences rather than legitimate shortcomings. Afraid of scrolling command panels? Come on...really? There are a number of ways to address that if it bothers you. As Cresshead stated, you can expand the panel to 2, 3, 4 (or more) wide and undock them to another monitor if you like.
We don't all have extra monitors lying around to deal with their crappy UI. Would *you* design a scrollbar that's 2 pixels wide?? Would you then keep it for ten years??



It sounds like people who have little to no experience in Max complaining over non-issues. Anyone with that little experience wouldn't know what to complain about. We do.


I guess right-click quad menus and transform gizmos (that you can enable/disable with a single keystroke) are downright spooky too, huh? Ooooh neato! Too bad I don't give a damn about gadgets. Max is very gadgety. As a matter of fact, the only LW'er I've ever met who learned max later and preffered it, is someone who loved anything gadgety. Anyone who loves features over anything else loves Max.


As far as Max's material editor...if you like nodal surfacing, NodeJoe ( www.nodejoe.com ) has been available for some time, as well as a free Schematic Material Editor, for game dev's and Arch Viz you have Lumonix's ShaderFX...which the developer recently made it available to individual users for free (as well as PuppetShop). Mental Mill now ships with Max 2010, so there are plenty of good options there.

And of course there's C.A.T. (previously a $1k C.A. plugin):
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/announcement_3ds_max_design_2010/
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/tutorials/tutorial_index/cat_overview_part_2_animating_with_cat/

LW CORE, as exciting as it is to see this kind of change... is at the beginning stages of development still. It's an exciting time if you are a user of either or both, but you can't go wrong with Max...no matter what some here may say.
Yup, just a 100 plugins to get and you'll be just fine.

AbnRanger
03-10-2009, 02:26 AM
We don't all have extra monitors lying around to deal with their crappy UI. Would *you* design a scrollbar that's 2 pixels wide?? Would you then keep it for ten years??

Anyone with that little experience wouldn't know what to complain about. We do.
Ooooh neato! Too bad I don't give a damn about gadgets. Max is very gadgety. As a matter of fact, the only LW'er I've ever met who learned max later and preffered it, is someone who loved anything gadgety. Anyone who loves features over anything else loves Max.

Yup, just a 100 plugins to get and you'll be just fine.You don't have to have dual monitors to expand the Command Panels 2 or more wide.
If you don't like the width of the scroll bar, you can do a number of things (which is why I was talking about having experience with it):
1) click and hold/grab anywhere in the the command panel to scroll (like a PDF document)
2) click anywhere in the command panel and use the scroll wheel
3) Right click anywhere in the command panel to select an area of the panel you want (instead of having to scroll to the bottom of the panel to get to the paint deformation tools. right click and select them from the list and go straight to it)

Most of the time, again, with experience (just as it would require in LW), you'd rarely go to the command panel for most common tasks anyway...using keyboard shortcuts and the quad menu (which you can customize to include context sensitive tools.

I only have a limited, cursory knowledge of Maya, and routinely found things I didn't like or thought should be there. All I really needed to do was ask somebody and find a quick solution instead of complaining. I personally think Maya's UI looks more like something you'd find on a shelf at Toy's'R'Us as opposed to an expensive industry standard 3D animation and VFX program....but again, that's a personal preference. I'm sure there are thousands of Maya users who don't mind it at all. But that's still not a knock on it's capabilities. I know better than to go there.

The 100 plugins you're talking about isn't exclusive to Max. LW is chock full of them too...including FiberFX. LW gets no credit for having those tools because they were originally plugins? I think it's purely pragmatic to turn to 3rd party products when it's beneficial for the end user, the software company and vendors. But in some cases, it may not.
Like incorporating Endorphin or MotionBuilder into Maya.

What's more is 3ds Max's SDK has been wide open to 3rd party developers, so that they use the same SDK that in-house developers do. These plugins are as thoroughly integrated as anything the Max developers could create themselves. I'm glad Newtek decided to take the same approach with CORE. I'm sure Mr. Worley appreciates it.

Max is "Gadgety?" So is XSI, Maya, Houdini and every other 3D program (beside LW) then. Transform Gizmos and quad menus are not gadgets...the navigation wheel (taken from Maya)...is a gadget. Gadgets or not, you always have the option to disable them if they don't suit your fancy.

AbnRanger
03-10-2009, 02:38 AM
Hey Don

Nicely said on all counts I guess, cause I dont have and hate max. But if you were refering to Dyslexia, then that isnt a digestive problem :) . Its a learning one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia

People with dyslexia have a hard time reading! But just look at Onlinerenderer :)...I was just having fun at his "I'm sick" statement...didn't think that had anything to do with dyslexia.

Can he claim the software on his taxes (he should be able to claim a part-time sole proprietorship/freelance and deduct the expense) in the UK? I would hope so.

DiedonD
03-10-2009, 02:48 AM
Can he claim the software on his taxes (he should be able to claim a part-time sole proprietorship/freelance and deduct the expense) in the UK? I would hope so.


Well it sounds good!

I hope so too...

Great achievement thus far!

geo_n
03-10-2009, 02:55 AM
To clarify, I was talking about the multi-sub-object in the material editor, which is the only way to have a different material per-polygon in max. Put materials per-polygon with uv maps, required even for planar mapping, and which can only be named with numbers, and you have an absolute nightmare from hell. LW's surface editor was absurdly superior even before it had nodes, so I'm really not worried.

Ah the material editor sub object. Isn't it similar to surface editor in lw? Pick a poly. Assign material id. In lw pick a poly assign surface.
I dont understand the Put materials per-polygon with uv maps and name with numbers :).

AbnRanger
03-10-2009, 03:15 AM
Ah the material editor sub object. Isn't it similar to surface editor in lw? Pick a poly. Assign material id. In lw pick a poly assign surface.
I dont understand the Put materials per-polygon with uv maps and name with numbers :).I may be misunderstanding what Toby means, but you don't have to assign a separate UV map to each sub-object material...It can be one UV map with dozens of sub-object materials assigned to the model/object. And you can/should NAME (not just assign a number) those sub-object materials to make it easier to locate.

geo_n
03-10-2009, 03:20 AM
I may be misunderstanding what Toby means, but you don't have to assign a separate UV map to each sub-object material...It can be one UV map with dozens of sub-object materials assigned to the model/object. And you can/should NAME (not just assign a number) those sub-object materials to make it easier to locate.

Yep. That's why I dont understand those statements, too.

OnlineRender
03-10-2009, 04:05 AM
Again i thank you for your comments , from what i can see from both parties , is that i have made the correct choice , i think by default i will model the base mesh in LW , the export to Zbrush then take into MAX to animate .

As for tax and reclaiming some of the money back , technically im employed and not self-empolyeed at the moment : HEAD PAINTBALL MARSHALL :good job !

plus im still in higher education , but i have a very nice friend that i play soccer "hate calling it that " football with , who is an accountant that will guide me in the correct path


GOOD TIP FOR UK SELF EMPLOYED ; i have two dogs , A collie and Lab , if you have dogs , claim back there pet food and any other cost ie : pet insurance , the reason you can do this is by saying that there secuirity for buisness or house "whatever feels truthfull :) " .
my father does this and saves alot of cash using this method , plus in-truth they are protection .

the quotes about dislixia "sorry still cant spell it correct " which is my whole point , i have to read this paragraph about 4 time and i still find words miss-spelt , bad grammer or missed out all together ,

I can read perfect , just sometimes instead of B i see D or simple words like sale i end up spelling seal . im not discalculas i can work out fairly complex algorythms and , "i just cant spell them "

also the whole newtek core video qoute "some people used google "

Ye anybody can use google hack strings to dig deep , but im old skool back in the days of commodor 64 irc chat ;)

My uncles head of debugging department for IBM , my fathers was one of the first person in the whole world to program for Zincliar :) you could say he was 3D artist , basicially he wrote software to connect ships together "Yarrow ship builders , if your Scottish you'll go ahhhhh "

I spend alot of my time looking for rouge software and viruses , which i why im now a MVP for xbox , basically i went onto youtube downloaded there fake ms points generators and ripped the codding to pieces , which may add is so badly done im suprised the execute file works at all .

I have several tallents but art is what i love , and if i can a full time job in the industry i will fell at home .

My main goal is to work for ROCKSTAR NORTH atm they use Autodesk products ,hence why i forked out the cash .

PEACE

DiedonD
03-10-2009, 04:18 AM
...the quotes about dislixia "sorry still cant spell it correct " which is my whole point , i have to read this paragraph about 4 time and i still find words miss-spelt , bad grammer or missed out all together ,

I can read perfect , just sometimes instead of B i see D or simple words like sale i end up spelling seal . im not discalculas i can work out fairly complex algorythms and , "i just cant spell them " ...
PEACE


Im marvelled at your achievement while having dyslexia really! I think you oughta be used for insipration!

There are all sort of sad stories regarding people with dyslexia! Usually you have an added skill or skills like algorhythim and arts and such, but just because of reading or writting problems, people were thought to the contrary! Like a total analphebet for instance! Not understanding whats really happening! And were issued severly underevaulated jobs like: truck drivers, security guards etc. Something to use only somewhat 3% of total potential! And since its a new thing, there are real people that had there lives passed, trapped and underevaluated throughout their lives like that! What hell that mustve been!

kopperdrake
03-10-2009, 04:39 AM
I found modelling in Max an inspiration killer. In the late 90s I was once dumb enough to try figuring out nurbs when it was flavour of the month in CG world and nearly ended up wearing a one piece canvas wraparound. I couldn't believe how superior Lightwave's poly modelling was in comparison and dumped my Max student edition in the bin. Yet there are games artists out there who perform what can only be described as black magic and actually produce professional looking models... in Max. It's a crazy planet.

I used LW in games for initial modelling/texturing but had to use Max for the hard dynamics at the time as our toolies had set the pipeline up that way. Often I had to tweak geometry in Max rather than go backwards to LW and I found it hideous to do the most mundane tasks.

LightWave lets you get your hands dirty on the raw point/poly info - Max seemed to keep a layer between you and the info, it felt like wading through molasses to get to where you wanted to be.

OnlineRender
03-10-2009, 05:45 AM
Originally i went to a Catholic primary school which was in the 80s and well deslixa was seen not only as a sin , but non existant ! but i moved away when my grandfather took ill , im not religious by any means , i belive that self preservation is my faith .
But there are advantages , i can see things that most people would walk by , for example i watched a spiders web for about 30 minutes the other day , just to see how the thing moved in the wind . but this may be the after effects of smoking weed for several years ! clean now , unfortunalty ! i do miss a good smoke . need to move abroad .

DiedonD
03-10-2009, 06:04 AM
Originally i went to a Catholic primary school which was in the 80s and well deslixa was seen not only as a sin , but non existant ! but i moved away when my grandfather took ill , im not religious by any means , i belive that self preservation is my faith .
But there are advantages , i can see things that most people would walk by , for example i watched a spiders web for about 30 minutes the other day , just to see how the thing moved in the wind . but this may be the after effects of smoking weed for several years ! clean now , unfortunalty ! i do miss a good smoke . need to move abroad .

Hey man, thats another hot issue that Ive been thinking about!

If youll be teaching LW, and youll have students, and theyll be surfing all around the net, surely studying LW some may come here, and might find you here!

Then, wouldnt it be bad for your image for your students to know the weed part? Not only that, but all the not so serious things that we have said thus far!

The good news is, you dont have many posts! Unlike me! If it all worksout, Im going to have to go through all of my more than thousand posts, to check for professor image disturbing posts, including this one, and ask for mods if they could remove them!

toby
03-10-2009, 06:08 AM
You don't have to have dual monitors to expand the Command Panels 2 or more wide.You do if you want more than 4" of viewport left. I did expand to 2 panels wide on a 19" monitor, that was all the space I could give up, especially for a stupid gui design.


If you don't like the width of the scroll barDoes anyone??


you can do a number of things (which is why I was talking about having experience with it):
1) click and hold/grab anywhere in the the command panel to scroll (like a PDF document)
2) click anywhere in the command panel and use the scroll wheel
3) Right click anywhere in the command panel to select an area of the panel you want (instead of having to scroll to the bottom of the panel to get to the paint deformation tools. right click and select them from the list and go straight to it)

1) No, you have to HUNT for a spot you can grab, like I said. You can't just grab a button or a field.
2) Unless the scrollwheel stops working, which is about every five minutes, for the same reason the keyboard stops working, the cursor is in some phantom field somewhere.
3) This is my point - why make a right-click menu just to navigate a panel?? Because all the other means are f***** up!? Why not just make the basic things work, then you won't have to experiment every time you need to find a damn control!! "Cut and paste stopped working... well just add a right-click menu, problem solved"



Most of the time, again, with experience (just as it would require in LW), you'd rarely go to the command panel for most common tasks anyway...using keyboard shortcuts and the quad menu (which you can customize to include context sensitive tools.
You have keyboard shortcuts for Turbosmooth options? UV map type? Smoothing groups?


I only have a limited, cursory knowledge of Maya, and routinely found things I didn't like or thought should be there. All I really needed to do was ask somebody and find a quick solution instead of complaining. I personally think Maya's UI looks more like something you'd find on a shelf at Toy's'R'Us as opposed to an expensive industry standard 3D animation and VFX program....but again, that's a personal preference. I'm sure there are thousands of Maya users who don't mind it at all. But that's still not a knock on it's capabilities. I know better than to go there.
Will you *please* stop acting like anyone who hates max has no experience in it. I know dozens of people, including myself, that have YEARS of experience in it, learned it FIRST, before Lightwave, and HATE IT. Giving us a list of instructions on how to deal with crap that shouldn't be there will not change that.



The 100 plugins you're talking about isn't exclusive to Max. LW is chock full of them too...including FiberFX. LW gets no credit for having those tools because they were originally plugins? I think it's purely pragmatic to turn to 3rd party products when it's beneficial for the end user, the software company and vendors. But in some cases, it may not. Like incorporating Endorphin or MotionBuilder into Maya.
Oh I didn't realize that LW and Maya use plugins. Are you sure about that?

toby
03-10-2009, 06:17 AM
I may be misunderstanding what Toby means, but you don't have to assign a separate UV map to each sub-object material...
You do if they have different maps, duh!


It can be one UV map with dozens of sub-object materials assigned to the model/object. And you can/should NAME (not just assign a number) those sub-object materials to make it easier to locate.
UV maps, not materials, can only be named with numbers!!! Create a uv map, give it a number, go to the material and tell it to use that number. Do this a dozen times with a dozen materials and you've got a nightmare. Try and memorize a dozen arbitrary numbers and what material they belong to!!

cresshead
03-10-2009, 06:24 AM
as usual this has turned into a flame based ***** fest.

all 3d apps are quite capable thesedays so you can find on that suits your needs

this chap chose to add 3dsmax as the job market in his location favors 3dsmax and maya,
simple as that, of course pointing that out on a lightwave forum will ruffle some feathers and has as predicted led to some sniping at 3dsmax.

3d is not a god belief system where you can only have 1 'true' god...
it's simply some pc software to make pretty pictures...

hello..

AbnRanger
03-10-2009, 06:50 AM
You do if they have different maps, duh!

UV maps, not materials, can only be named with numbers!!! Create a uv map, give it a number, go to the material and tell it to use that number. Do this a dozen times with a dozen materials and you've got a nightmare. Try and memorize a dozen arbitrary numbers and what material they belong to!!Then use Composite map materials then...duh?
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/2009demos/04%20Materials%20and%20Maps.mov

shrox
03-10-2009, 07:04 AM
And of course there's the dreaded... Multi-Sub-Object monster!! D:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!

:D

I had blocked that trauma from my memory, thanks for bring it back. Oh the horror!

bobakabob
03-10-2009, 11:27 AM
as usual this has turned into a flame based ***** fest.

all 3d apps are quite capable thesedays so you can find on that suits your needs

this chap chose to add 3dsmax as the job market in his location favors 3dsmax and maya,
simple as that, of course pointing that out on a lightwave forum will ruffle some feathers and has as predicted led to some sniping at 3dsmax.

3d is not a god belief system where you can only have 1 'true' god...
it's simply some pc software to make pretty pictures...

hello..

Well considering this is a Lightwave, not a Max forum the majority of posts are remarkably restrained, suggesting the two apps aren't such a bad combination. And a few subjective posters here just don't like the modelling tools which is fair enough. If I'm guilty of pushing the boundaries a little it's only because I never recovered from a severe psychological trauma learning an educational version of Max in 1997 (paying under a ton for the privilege) :)

jasonwestmas
03-10-2009, 12:46 PM
Well considering this is a Lightwave, not a Max forum the majority of posts are remarkably restrained, suggesting the two apps aren't such a bad combination. And a few subjective posters here just don't like the modelling tools which is fair enough. If I'm guilty of pushing the boundaries a little it's only because I never recovered from a severe psychological trauma learning an educational version of Max in 1997 (paying under a ton for the privilege) :)

Heck, I'd buy max for a $400 commercial license, especially if it was a necessity :)

wacom
03-10-2009, 12:50 PM
The fact that Modo is the main application out of the non CAD 3D sector that's eating into Max's userbase speaks volumes.

MAX:Still held together with duct tape and mainly a viz app. The texturing in Max is flat out retarded compared to Maya, XSI, and LW. On the XSI boards there'd ever so often be someone trying to hack a shader for Maya or XSI to work on MAX, and the stupid hoops they'd have to go through just to make connections was flat out anti-productive. Yeah yeah- blah blah, texture baking this and that. Give me XSI over Max any day. How about this- you buy MAX, with all the needed bloated plugins, and I'll take the same money, and buy XSI or LW AND another set of applications with the same cash to make up any difference.

IMHO if you have to go to the depths of dealing with AD, MAX, if you want to do high end animation, broadcast work, and films then MAX is THE LAST application you should learn out of the three rings (MAYA, XSI, MAX).

I know you live in the UK and wanted to get a job, but there are plently of XSI and Maya jobs to be found pending you have the skills. Besides- have fun competing with the other MAX viz users now kicked out on the street due to the downturn in the viz market!

Plenty of XSI jobs in the UK:
http://www.xsibase.com/jobs.php

Just saying you had options, even if you had to "betray" your LW roots (and they were cheaper)!

Besides- Max's modeling tools are over rated esp. compared to what is on the market now esp. pre-plugin. If MAX wasn't used by arch viz and industrial design types then I highly doubt they'd be able to maintain the high price point that they do.

I guess I'm the only one that hears the slow drip of people leaving MAX for XSI, MODO, and C4D (all for their own respective reasons). Heck, Vray isn't even Max specific anymore and looks to be even less in the future.

bobakabob
03-10-2009, 01:27 PM
Heck, I'd buy max for a $400 commercial license, especially if it was a necessity :)

Wouldja believe it was an educational license... in 1997!! :cry:

jasonwestmas
03-10-2009, 01:30 PM
Wouldja believe it was an educational license... in 1997!! :cry:

Actually no, since I think Max5 was $500 for an educational license when I was taking some classes to learn it. I thought pricing was going down not up. Then along came maya 4.

mattclary
03-10-2009, 01:31 PM
What compelled you to buy 3D Max? Did you just have $3500 that was burning a hole in your pocket?

Right on the verge of Newtek kicking it into high gear with Core. Good call.

LOL! Steve, I love you, man... :thumbsup:

OnlineRender
03-10-2009, 04:09 PM
Ye hang on I'll phone the UK game industry up and say , "do you mind using core instead of Max someone one the Newtek forum says its good ."

Hmm

I wanted the software plus i was drunk !

GraphXs
03-10-2009, 04:37 PM
I get to use Max everyday for the last 6+ years and its great at somethings, I do mix it with LW. I go back and forth all the time, I curse some issues I have with Max. (Z-up being one of them) For modeling it's not that bad, I prefer LW and I also prefer LW for my UV's. If any Max person can tell me how to use the scale tool freely like LW. That is the biggest issue I have with max and having to use 3D gizmos. (I know Max2009 has a working pivot, what what about the UV space?) Oh, and yes it needs dual monitors for the command panel, but so does LW. Oh and one more thing that drive me crazy is moving the camera or object by mistake with auto key off changes all the animation. (LW has the move path button) "Max has no button" (That should never happen and I see artist messing animations key up all the time)

This last year we have a Maya guy that has been writing scripts in Max to make it more like Maya and LW. Such a wonderful thing!:D:thumbsup:

Andyjaggy
03-10-2009, 04:41 PM
Stop wasting your time on this thread and just go learn it all ready.

You bought it so stop wondering if you did the right thing and go learn it. Who cares if it is as good as XSI or as enjoyable as LW, or as smooth and silky as Modo. It's what you have now, and there are no shortage of jobs using it so learn it and go get a job all ready. It's not like picking software is like choosing your child or something.

...... he who needs to take a bit of his own advice. :)

jasonwestmas
03-10-2009, 04:43 PM
Stop wasting your time on this thread and just go learn it all ready.

You bought it so stop wondering if you did the right thing and go learn it. Who cares if it is as good as XSI or as enjoyable as LW, or as smooth and silky as Modo. It's what you have now, and there are no shortage of jobs using it so learn it and go get a job all ready. It's not like picking software is like choosing your child or something.

...... he who needs to take a bit of his own advice. :)

That RIGHT!!! Whooooo! As much as I dislike the big AD you CAN get work with this beast.

toby
03-10-2009, 04:55 PM
as usual this has turned into a flame based ***** fest.

all 3d apps are quite capable thesedays so you can find on that suits your needs

this chap chose to add 3dsmax as the job market in his location favors 3dsmax and maya,
simple as that, of course pointing that out on a lightwave forum will ruffle some feathers and has as predicted led to some sniping at 3dsmax.
Sorry but it's the 3dsmax flag-waving that's ruffling feathers, especially the idea that we don't know what we're talking about because we don't have enough experience. You can't attack everyone who doesn't like Max, on a LW forum, and expect things to be peachy.

And I don't appreciate you blaming the LW side as having started this lively debate, just because you like Max. There are *obviously* reasons to not like it given the number of people who don't, and since no other 3d software gets as many complaints, it's clearly not a case of LW fanaticism or inexperience, so there's no excuse for dismissing our opinions of Max, esp. on a LW forum. I could just as easily dismiss you guys as fan-boys for pimping it here, but instead I respect your opinion of it, so don't disrespect mine.

cresshead
03-10-2009, 05:09 PM
Sorry but it's the 3dsmax flag-waving that's ruffling feathers, especially the idea that we don't know what we're talking about because we don't have enough experience. You can't attack everyone who doesn't like Max, on a LW forum, and expect things to be peachy.

And I don't appreciate you blaming the LW side as having started this lively debate, just because you like Max. There are *obviously* reasons to not like it given the number of people who don't, and since no other 3d software gets as many complaints, it's clearly not a case of LW fanaticism or inexperience, so there's no excuse for dismissing our opinions of Max, esp. on a LW forum. I could just as easily dismiss you guys as fan-boys for pimping it here, but instead I respect your opinion of it, so don't disrespect mine.

try re reading what i wrote...

Intuition
03-10-2009, 05:34 PM
3DS Max is actually quite good in many areas.

It is vastly different in workflow approach to Lightwave.

I really like its selection windows and scene management.

The modifer stack is the same ol concept thats in XSi and Maya with its own max flavor. Yes, don't freeze the turbo smooth!

I will agree with anyone about eth 32 shader slots/material library. After you get used to it, its no big deal but I still think just about every other app has a better way of organizing shaders/images/layers/environments then max.

But the big thing you get with max is that its a gateway drug to the heroin of the cg industry.

.......Vray.

I mean, with all good intention, attack and learn mental ray. Its good for getting work but Vray.... nuff said.

Also, fumeFX, afterburn, cebas thinking particles.

http://cebas.com/products/feature.php?UD=10-7888-35-788&PID=15&FID=628

http://www.afterworks.com/FumeFX.asp?ID=14

http://www.cebas.com/products/products.php?UD=10-7888-33-788&PID=47

Pyrocluster kills my will to work in LW hpvoxels. They render so fast and look good. This is true for XSi ice volumes as well.

Yet the problem I am outlining here is that max is expensive to start and then when you buy vray and all these plugs your up to houdini prices.

Thankfully I have budgets that allow this. Yet, not even for the sake of being fancy but for time saving and image quality, in fact more so on the time saving and quality issue.

toby
03-10-2009, 06:11 PM
try re reading what i wrote...
Ok done, what did you think I misread

bobakabob
03-10-2009, 06:19 PM
Actually no, since I think Max5 was $500 for an educational license when I was taking some classes to learn it. I thought pricing was going down not up. Then along came maya 4.

Take my word for it. As a resident of 'Rip off Britain' where software and hardware is still way overpriced compared to the US I recall in the late 90s I paid approx 800 pounds sterling for an educational licence of Max. :(

AbnRanger
03-10-2009, 06:19 PM
The fact that Modo is the main application out of the non CAD 3D sector that's eating into Max's userbase speaks volumes.

MAX:Still held together with duct tape and mainly a viz app. The texturing in Max is flat out retarded compared to Maya, XSI, and LW. On the XSI boards there'd ever so often be someone trying to hack a shader for Maya or XSI to work on MAX, and the stupid hoops they'd have to go through just to make connections was flat out anti-productive. Yeah yeah- blah blah, texture baking this and that. Give me XSI over Max any day. How about this- you buy MAX, with all the needed bloated plugins, and I'll take the same money, and buy XSI or LW AND another set of applications with the same cash to make up any difference.

IMHO if you have to go to the depths of dealing with AD, MAX, if you want to do high end animation, broadcast work, and films then MAX is THE LAST application you should learn out of the three rings (MAYA, XSI, MAX).

I know you live in the UK and wanted to get a job, but there are plently of XSI and Maya jobs to be found pending you have the skills. Besides- have fun competing with the other MAX viz users now kicked out on the street due to the downturn in the viz market!

Plenty of XSI jobs in the UK:
http://www.xsibase.com/jobs.php

Just saying you had options, even if you had to "betray" your LW roots (and they were cheaper)!

Besides- Max's modeling tools are over rated esp. compared to what is on the market now esp. pre-plugin. If MAX wasn't used by arch viz and industrial design types then I highly doubt they'd be able to maintain the high price point that they do.

I guess I'm the only one that hears the slow drip of people leaving MAX for XSI, MODO, and C4D (all for their own respective reasons). Heck, Vray isn't even Max specific anymore and looks to be even less in the future.Held together by duct tape? This is just LW/XSI fanboy jibberish. :tsktsk: Modo cutting into Max's marketshare? Please...Raw sales figures tell a different story.
Max underwent a major re-write back at version 9 and it's plugins are as cohesive to it as any other. Funny to hear you accuse Max of being the one that's antiquated and rickety. You couldn't be further from the truth.

Most, if not all studios that use 3ds Max have EVERY chance to switch....yet they don't. In fact, Max is still the top performer sales wise and generally outsells Maya and XSI combined, so says Autodesk reps themselves, even after the Softimage acquisition. And it will break records this year....despite a bad economy. For good reason. And you say they are threatened by a mass exodus to Modo? :ohmy:
From top to bottom, it's a very solid program, and its biggest asset is its 3rd party community.

As with other 3d programs, there are some areas where they choose to let the user decide if they need a 3rd party plugin. They get criticized if they add one in, or if they leave it out. Newtek knows too that you can't please everybody all the time. The userbase has largely told them that a nodal material editor was NOT a high priority currently. They wanted AD to focus on performance, and that's what AD did. If you are going to flame them, flame them over the fact that they listened to their customers.
What's more...they knew that Mental Mill was coming and that it would make things confusing to have 3 different material editors built in. And it addresses the issue of portability of shaders (it's never been easy to do from any program to another). Gary Yost, one of the developers of the earlier versions of 3ds Max, has been working with Mental Images...and largely in this area. And one reason why 3ds Max is out front with this new technology. Hate if you will...but within a month or so, you'll be hearing plenty about it. And it will be one reason (in conjunction with the addition of CAT) that you will likely see more film animation starting to use Max; not just games and game cinematics. MotionBuilder's biggest draw is it's realtime animation performance in the viewport. Max 2010 will give you very similar capability in that regard (watch the 2nd and 3rd video down):
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/announcement_3ds_max_design_2010/
these videos show all the CAT preset rigs (you can build your own from scratch or modify the presets, along with their own preset walk cycles and unique procedural animations)
http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/announcement_3ds_max_design_2010/

Just because Maya has been a standard in film doesn't mean other programs systems don't cut the mustard and are incapable of hi-end CA. There are plenty of Game companies that can easily choose Maya for animation in their cinematics, but have largely chosen not to. They would laugh at your comment about not being capable of hi-end animation. Softimage didn't really "buy" CAT...they hired it's developer (on the condition that he be allowed to continue to develop CAT as well). THAT says something when Softimage/XSI, lauded for it's Character Animation tools, recruits the brains behind a Max Animation system.

In the end, the O.P. couldn't go wrong choosing either Max, Maya, or XSI as far as capability is concerned. There's no sense in flaming the choice he made just because you don't particularly like it yourself.

AbnRanger
03-10-2009, 06:39 PM
...If any Max person can tell me how to use the scale tool freely like LW.If you are talking about using the numeric panel in LW to scale an object, the equivalent in Max is right-clicking on the scale icon to bring up a numeric panel for the same purpose. You also have the ability to select Uniform scale or Non-Uniform scale (which still maintains volume...great for animating squash and stretch)
That is the biggest issue I have with max and having to use 3D gizmos. you don't have to use a gizmo if you don't want to (the "X" key toggles the gizmos on and off)

Oh and one more thing that drive me crazy is moving the camera or object by mistake with auto key off changes all the animation. (LW has the move path button) "Max has no button" (That should never happen and I see artist messing animations key up all the time)You generally want to keep auto key on most of the time when animating, and you can lock/unlock an object/selection quickly by hitting the spacebar.
In the motion panel you have a "Move Along Path" slider and numeric input. Is that what you are referring to?

bobakabob
03-10-2009, 06:55 PM
I used LW in games for initial modelling/texturing but had to use Max for the hard dynamics at the time as our toolies had set the pipeline up that way. Often I had to tweak geometry in Max rather than go backwards to LW and I found it hideous to do the most mundane tasks.

LightWave lets you get your hands dirty on the raw point/poly info - Max seemed to keep a layer between you and the info, it felt like wading through molasses to get to where you wanted to be.

Agreed, like sculpting clay with boxing gloves. I'm in awe of friends in games who model in Max without developing exaggerated facial tics (though they've yet to experience the delights of Lightwave Modeler or Modo). I do hope to overcome my Max phobia soon and spend some time with Character Studio to see how it compares to XSI's rigging and animation tools. Any insight here?

jasonwestmas
03-10-2009, 07:02 PM
Character Studio is rather rigid in the way the bones move imo. Of course you can attach the raw max bones and animate those no probs to make up for the motion that Biped does not support. The only real reason to use CS is for the copy and paste functions for poses, the fast setup and it's compatibility with a lot of game engines.

jasonwestmas
03-10-2009, 07:03 PM
Take my word for it. As a resident of 'Rip off Britain' where software and hardware is still way overpriced compared to the US I recall in the late 90s I paid approx 800 pounds sterling for an educational licence of Max. :(

Yeah I forgot about that UK pricing phenomenon.

DiedonD
03-11-2009, 01:37 AM
LOL! Steve, I love you, man... :thumbsup:

Hr Is Steven too :eek:

Just how many Stevens are they? With that one, now I know of 5 Stevens!

Is this the next most popular name on earth after Muhammed?

Contrary to Diedon, it is rare, even among Albanians!

hrgiger
03-11-2009, 03:57 AM
I wasn't suggesting that there is anything wrong with 3DMax, I'm sure it's good software. I do however have an issue supporting a company like Autodesk who is monopolizing the 3D industry and will probably end up killing innovation all the while maintaining elitest pricing. But hey, if you can afford it, more power to ya. I just think with AD now owning the big 3 software titles in 3D, now is the time to support the smaller companies like Newtek or Modo which are actually trying to bring a good product to market and not just turn a quick buck for a quick bucks sake.

OnlineRender
03-11-2009, 04:29 AM
I wasn't suggesting that there is anything wrong with 3DMax, I'm sure it's good software. I do however have an issue supporting a company like Autodesk who is monopolizing the 3D industry and will probably end up killing innovation all the while maintaining elitest pricing. But hey, if you can afford it, more power to ya. I just think with AD now owning the big 3 software titles in 3D, now is the time to support the smaller companies like Newtek or Modo which are actually trying to bring a good product to market and not just turn a quick buck for a quick bucks sake.

Agreed , I purchased LW first if this will settle all the *****in and arguments about what software is best ....

every software has its downfalls and bugs , even windows LOL .

I now own LW , ZBRUSH & MAX , which in my opionion is probably the 3 main apps that i need to get started as a freelance artist , at least when a client ask's what software do i own , i can stand proud and say i have above software without cringing or explaining to people that LW is a very powerfull application , which trust me i seem to do alot ......

end this thread , i knew it was cause some friction between NT forum posters but i didnt think it would blow out of porportion , but again all posts do seem to go down that route esp here .

Who cares what app you use or if you need 10 screens just to show the GUI , the matter of the fact is ,


"if it gets the job done , it works for me "

as for supporting AD , i had no choice , but take into consideration there winning the UK market for a reason , and as for monopoly , tell yourself that everytime the windows screen boots up .....................Mythbuntu all the way ...

ps I will buy Core maybe not straight away , but i will get it at some point , but first ill wait to see if it lives up to its name , and by what i have seen i am impressed , "another point " do u think the NT havent got a copy of the latest AD product installed on there computer ?? of course they have , software developers are probably ripping it apart as we speak , to learn how it opperates how they can improve , what GUI interface icons the can steal or borrow and so on.

I have the great respect for NT and there stafff , they work hard , listen to silly conversation like this thread and act with usually great results .which is more than some other competive company's

Next year i will have the responsibility of teaching new blood lightwave , and i am proud i have been giving that chance , but if a students asks me what is the best software to use in the UK " i have to be truthfull and give accurate account that although LW is powerfull , there are other software developers out there that have a stronger hold in the uk market "

But again the last thing i would want to do , to any company ! ,would be to bring them in distrurpute "cant spell " .

If i could turn the whole uk market into using LW CORE i would , but the fact is , im a small fish drowning in a large pond , inwhich most of you seem to swimming in !

PEACE

OnlineRender
03-11-2009, 05:04 AM
post 100 yee

Intuition
03-11-2009, 12:16 PM
I find it quite surprising how anyone can become too loyal to any one app.

I mean, it can only help a person when they expand their knowledge base about any subject let alone 3d modeling, animation, rendering.

Sounds like you aren't so sick of the max purchase now. Which is good. Lots of tuts out there. Try to do one a night. In about 2-3 months you'll feel right at home.

toby
03-11-2009, 02:09 PM
I find it quite surprising how anyone can become too loyal to any one app.

I find it surprising that disliking any one app defines you as a fanatic.

Yes, all of these apps are capable, I haven't disputed that. I've only mentioned why max is a p.i.t.a to use. If it wasn't, I probably would've used it for my whole career.

OnlineRender
03-11-2009, 02:21 PM
and it begins again..............

bobakabob
03-11-2009, 03:15 PM
... and why not? This thread is affording much merriment and mirth. As you confessed yourself you dumped your loyal girl for a high maintenance vamp :)

Intuition
03-11-2009, 03:27 PM
I find it surprising that disliking any one app defines you as a fanatic.

Yes, all of these apps are capable, I haven't disputed that. I've only mentioned why max is a p.i.t.a to use. If it wasn't, I probably would've used it for my whole career.

Yeah its all weird, I would agree. We've all been called fan boys on one day then relentless critics on another eh?

My point really is that in the bigger picture the only thing that matters is if the app gets the job done as fast and with the quality you need and I can't really say any one app can do that by itself in many circumstances.

In my own opinion max has made many things I used to try in LW which are a p.i.t.a. much easier and less painless. Same goes for XSi and maya and modeling in modo. Yet sometimes I just want a simple fx linker trick, or a quick element render with F-Prime and LW is the way to go.

I can only try to help the OP since his choice was max the same way I would try to help those that asked LW questions, :thumbsup:

GraphXs
03-11-2009, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by AbnRanger

If you are talking about using the numeric panel in LW to scale an object, the equivalent in Max is right-clicking on the scale icon to bring up a numeric panel for the same purpose. You also have the ability to select Uniform scale or Non-Uniform scale (which still maintains volume...great for animating squash and stretch)

No, I was talking about if you are in "edit poly" in Max and select poly, edges, verts of the object and want to strech it from the bottom and scale it in on axis how is this done? The gimo is always in the center of the selection. The only way I know is using the "working pivot" under Heirarchy tab. In modeler, the strech or any tool is based on mouse postion by default.


you don't have to use a gizmo if you don't want to (the "X" key toggles the gizmos on and off)

I was just ref. the use of gizmo for modeling.



You generally want to keep auto key on most of the time when animating, and you can lock/unlock an object/selection quickly by hitting the spacebar.
In the motion panel you have a "Move Along Path" slider and numeric input. Is that what you are referring to?


Yes that is true, Auto Key shoul be kept on, but if you wanted to edit say on the poly level or not create new keys you got to turn it off. I just like the way other packages work. Like in Maya/LW if you have Autokey off and you move objects or camera, etc and don't "create" a key, it snaps back to what it was orginally. Max doesn't do this. :thumbsdow

Andyjaggy
03-11-2009, 04:40 PM
No, I was talking about if you are in "edit poly" in Max and select poly, edges, verts of the object and want to strech it from the bottom and scale it in on axis how is this done? The gimo is always in the center of the selection. The only way I know is using the "working pivot" under Heirarchy tab. In modeler, the strech or any tool is based on mouse postion by default.

Yeah I've been trying to figure this out as well. I even asked one of my co-workers, and showed him how the action centers work in LW. I asked if you could rotate or scale according to mouse position in max, and he didn't know how. He just suggested moving the pivot and using that for your transforms. Lame. So instead of just hitting a key to switch to mouse action center and modeling away, I now have to go in and send 10 seconds adjusting the pivot, and then going back and doing my transform? By all means if you know how to get the same effect as easily in Max I would love to know how.

03-11-2009, 08:32 PM
Why not just add a null to the scene and 'pick' that as your transform center. You can do whatever you want with it then. Add mulitple nulls and use them for swapping between multiple, often used points, since max stores them as picks within the transform coord center dropdown. No need to mess with pivots at all (kindof a bad idea for most modeling anyway, as at some point you'll need to recenter it and reset xform on the object too). I use this method a lot in xsi as well.

GraphXs
03-11-2009, 09:54 PM
The max issues is in regards to a modeling function. Thats why they have the "working pivot". The issue with working pivot its not in the edit poly tool rollout. It under another tab, so if it's not the right area for your edit ya have to adjust it and then go back to edit poly.

If you add nulls (point helpers or dummies in max) and go to the edit poly lvl, and select verts or polys the editable gizmo is always based on the center of that selection. I've even tried soft selection but its still not the LW "mouse is the fall off for editing the mesh level. This is also the same reason I prefer the UV layout it modeler, sure Max as great snapping functions and edge functions, but move, rotate, scale is always based on the center of what is selected. I've seen great models done in Max, and it usually done in the prespective window, I use the scale tool alot when modeling in LW and just find it so diffcult to do the same in Max so that why i stick in modeler, Heck endomorphs are another great reason to stay in modeler. They transfer great in Max (obj level)

Q: In LW 9.6 the obj export don't work anymore, The UV's for the model are destroyed when I bring my mesh into Max. (9.3 works great) Does anyone else have this issue? (The UV are created in LW 9.6 and broke in Max.

Some other knowin issues with LW to OBJ to Max. If you have a 4 point tri (non-planer) Edit poly will add extra points and edges on top of each other. (Edit Mesh doesn't do this and that what the mesh comes in as, only when it's converted to edit-poly) It also does the same from Z-Brush.
Another discovery is from Z-Brush or LW it will unweld all the verts in the UV space. (not a big issue, cause ya just weld them back in UV Edit space)

Max symmetry is also hard to work with, I would say its more like Virtual Mirror from true arts, which is a great tool, but the issue in Max is after you collapse it to create the other half of the mesh, rig it, skin it, and say ya want to tweak the mesh, Edit pot has not symmetry, to ya have to ajust each side one at a time...Bah! Heck even when LW symmetry is not correct it has the falloff, and tools with radial or falloff functions ( like magnet) those tools work in symmetry because of the falloff. (it kinda like Z-Brush) Oh and mirror in Max, needs you to clone the mesh first before it works?


A great addtion is FBX seems to work great with LW scene files. I haven't done much with joints or bones, but camera, light and textures for the most part come in easy into Max 2009.:thumbsup:

Silkrooster
03-11-2009, 09:57 PM
I find it quite surprising how anyone can become too loyal to any one app.

I mean, it can only help a person when they expand their knowledge base about any subject let alone 3d modeling, animation, rendering.

Sounds like you aren't so sick of the max purchase now. Which is good. Lots of tuts out there. Try to do one a night. In about 2-3 months you'll feel right at home.

I can. To some the amount of money that they paid for the program is quite a lot. Therefore they can be defensive if someone told them they spent their money on the wrong program.
Its the same for most objects that cost a lot. Our family are Ford only people. Some farmers I know are Chevy people and it shows. I can see their truck rotting out behind the barn. :D
The more money spent on an object the more defensive they can become.
Thats my take on it any way.

03-11-2009, 10:24 PM
The max issues is in regards to a modeling function. Thats why they have the "working pivot". The issue with working pivot its not in the edit poly tool rollout. It under another tab, so if it's not the right area for your edit ya have to adjust it and then go back to edit poly.

If you add nulls (point helpers or dummies in max) and go to the edit poly lvl, and select verts or polys the editable gizmo is always based on the center of that selection.

Yes I'm talking about modeling and using a fake pivot while you are in edit poly mode. You don't need to change tabs and mess with the object pivot. The transform center dropdown menu is at the top toolbar in the center and is always accessible when you are in edit poly. You can change the selection center to be the center of your selection, or the object pivot, or local to each selection if you have multiple elements selected, as well as 'picking' a fake selection center like I mentioned, based on a null, or any other object you want so long as it has a pivot.

GraphXs
03-11-2009, 10:56 PM
Ya, I tried that it didn't work as easy as I thought, maybe a bug.

I'm in Edit poly on a box object>poly mode

I did "pick" (at the top tool bar) and then picked a sphere, and tried a point helper and the scale gizmo stayed at the center of the box and didn't move to the other pivots.

The only way I got it to work is by activating "working" pivot then going back to my box then switching the drop down to sphere or point helper. Then it changed to the other objects pivots for the edit poly box.

Thanks for the tip and I might use it for some thing in the future, but that alot of work to change the scale, postion, rotations center falloff. The neg thing is if ya then want to change the Pick working pivot is get out of the selection mode and move the object. Insane amount of steps!

Again, thanks for the tip!

Does anyone know how Modo does it? It has gizmo's but does it do mouse center as well?

Andyjaggy
03-12-2009, 08:57 AM
Does anyone know how Modo does it? It has gizmo's but does it do mouse center as well?

It most certainly does. Modo has loads of options when it comes to action centers.

Andyjaggy
03-12-2009, 09:00 AM
Yes I'm talking about modeling and using a fake pivot while you are in edit poly mode. You don't need to change tabs and mess with the object pivot. The transform center dropdown menu is at the top toolbar in the center and is always accessible when you are in edit poly. You can change the selection center to be the center of your selection, or the object pivot, or local to each selection if you have multiple elements selected, as well as 'picking' a fake selection center like I mentioned, based on a null, or any other object you want so long as it has a pivot.

But that still required positioning your null every time you want to scale or rotate something around a specific point. Doubling the work every time you want to do this. Okay maybe it isn't as big a deal as I'm making it sounds, but it's a big enough annoyance that it keeps me constantly aggravated when working in Max.

03-12-2009, 09:39 AM
I never said it was an awesome solution. Just a solution, better than what was being discussed. You make do with what you have in the app you are using. =]

I would agree modo has a better approach with action centers too.

OnlineRender
03-12-2009, 10:20 AM
out of interest i reckon this thread has exuasted itself
i have my answer and i have made the correct choice ?

OnlineRender
03-12-2009, 10:22 AM
Heres a way to settle this

Poll: What 3D App do use most ?
Lightwave (http://sigpoll.com/5823/1) MAX (http://sigpoll.com/5823/2) Maya (http://sigpoll.com/5823/3) Cinema 4D (http://sigpoll.com/5823/4) Zbrush (http://sigpoll.com/5823/5) (Results (http://sigpoll.com/5823))

Andyjaggy
03-12-2009, 10:23 AM
http://sigpoll.com/i/5823i1.gif
http://sigpoll.com/i/5823i2.gif (http://sigpoll.com/5823/1)

What did you expect posting on a Lightwave forum! You think most of us here are Max users?

Anyway I'm done with this thread, have fun people.

OnlineRender
03-12-2009, 10:27 AM
What did you expect posting on a Lightwave forum! You think most of us here are Max users?

Anyway I'm done with this thread, have fun people.


What you mean Lightwave forum , thee Lightwave forum :P

Philbert
03-12-2009, 05:23 PM
Ok i spoke to my wife , she's not happy at me spending any money let alone the Sh!t loads of cash for Max .

I'm with your wife on this one.