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View Full Version : New dongle required for Core!



starbase1
03-06-2009, 05:40 AM
Well, it took a while but I got an answer from Newtek Europe.

I need to move away from my ancient dongle to a USB one, not least as my current new shiny PC has no serial port. But it occured to me that there might be complications. In particular we have read that Core will play nicely with Linux, and also we know the a big barrier to getting the current Lightwave onto Linux (Under WINE) is that the dongle doesn't work under Linux.

So I sent an email too Newtek Europe asking if Core might require a new dongle to work under Linux. And got the response "There is no exact information at this time - but it appears a new dongle will be necessary"

So it's not only a case of paying 75 Euros just for the copy protection update, but it looks like I may have to do the same thing again in the near future.

Now I notice the warnings about it not being certain yet, but I'd really hope that this is not as described. Or that the second updated dongle would be provided free of charge to anyone who upgraded in (say) the year before it came out.

I accept the need for Netek to use systems like this, and find a dongle a much better method than the painful activation used by the likes of Vue. But this does seem a bit much to swallow.

Nick

mattclary
03-06-2009, 07:24 AM
I wouldn't sweat it too much yet, don't get in a panic until we hear something official.

You said your computer doesn't even have a serial (I assume you meant parallel) port, so why would it matter to you? You must be using the USB dongle anyway, if that's the case.

I switched to USB several years ago because I knew the parallel port is a dinosaur.

Kuzey
03-06-2009, 07:33 AM
He's got a new PC and therefore old dongle won't work :hey:

I would have thought they would only need to have a new Linux driver for the usb dongle to work?

Kuzey

mattclary
03-06-2009, 07:40 AM
He's got a new PC and therefore old dongle won't work

So the problem has absolutely nothing to do with what CORE will or will not use. At least for him.

Kuzey
03-06-2009, 07:46 AM
So the problem has absolutely nothing to do with what CORE will or will not use. At least for him.

Actually, I think it does.

He doesn't want to upgrade to the usb dongle now and then find he'll have to upgrade again in the near future...if he want's to use the Linux version of the Core.

Kuzey

Liber777
03-06-2009, 07:51 AM
He's got a new PC and therefore old dongle won't work :hey:

I would have thought they would only need to have a new Linux driver for the usb dongle to work?

Kuzey

A Linux driver will do the trick for a native app. The problem has been with running dongled apps under WINE emulation.

mattclary
03-06-2009, 08:01 AM
Actually, I think it does.

He doesn't want to upgrade to the usb dongle now and then find he'll have to upgrade again in the near future...if he want's to use the Linux version of the Core.

Kuzey

A current USB dongle will work with CORE, if CORE uses a dongle. Take that to the bank and cash it.

Any limitation of not running LW on Linux has nothing to do with the dongle support for Linux. Go look at the drivers available at Safenet's site.

Sensei
03-06-2009, 08:13 AM
I need to move away from my ancient dongle to a USB one, not least as my current new shiny PC has no serial port.

There are USB-RS232 serial port adapters available,
Here is one for 13 usd http://www.usbgear.com/USB-Serial.html
and USB-parallel port adapters for 18 usd
http://shopper.cnet.com/networking/parallel-port-to-usb/4014-3243_9-4778227.html

starbase1
03-06-2009, 08:31 AM
Actually, I think it does.

He doesn't want to upgrade to the usb dongle now and then find he'll have to upgrade again in the near future...if he want's to use the Linux version of the Core.

Kuzey

Spot on!

Kuzey
03-06-2009, 08:32 AM
A Linux driver will do the trick for a native app. The problem has been with running dongled apps under WINE emulation.

Ahh..thanks that makes sense :thumbsup:

I guess somethings up with the answer Newtek Europe gave him.

Kuzey

starbase1
03-06-2009, 08:33 AM
A current USB dongle will work with CORE, if CORE uses a dongle. Take that to the bank and cash it.


This is the opposite of what I was told by Newtek Europe. At least for the Linux compatability.

Should I beleive them or you? :devil:

mattclary
03-06-2009, 08:44 AM
This is the opposite of what I was told by Newtek Europe. At least for the Linux compatability.

Should I beleive them or you? :devil:

Me.

Save the post, I'll eat my words if I am wrong.



edit:
Here is the Windows driver that we use, and the corresponding Linux driver.

mattclary
03-06-2009, 08:55 AM
... I have multiple dongles, and Newtek didnt asked me on which I want buy the update to core! Maybe there is no Hardware-Dongle in the future ?!


That is a unique possibility. I am betting we will still use the dongle, but this is admittedly up in the air.

zapper1998
03-06-2009, 09:17 AM
Oh Man you have to give up the Par Dongle....

Boy that lived a good life....

Ya think they would let ya keep it, so you could mount the bugger in a nice frame, and put her up on the wall above your monitors..

darn...

:)

-Michael

cresshead
03-06-2009, 10:03 AM
i believe [but can't prove] that core beta will use the lightwave dongle but either during the beta or at final release stage Lightwave Core will move over to a new independant copy protection system...exactly 'what' we don't know yet...could be software lock like speed edit as or something similar to 3dsmax/xsi/houdini/modo.

MentalFish
03-06-2009, 10:54 AM
I hope they drop the whole dongle concept.

There are times when I want to do some 3D work at home but I can't, because I forgot the dongle at the office. As a single user with a license for 999 render nodes, why does it matter whether or not I have plugged in a USB thingy? I can only use one instance of LW at any given time anyway (haven't figured out a way to clone myself yet), and if a company with several employees wants to use the latest version of LW without paying for it, they can easily do so without having to worry about a dongle stopping them.

The whole concept of binding software to some piece of hardware is flawed regardless of what solution is chosen. Hardware can break, disappear, go out of date, and does not provide any insurance against cracking or piracy of the software. The best way to have some sort of ownership ID would be a software based key you can take with you on a memory stick if physical portability is important to the licensee. If you loose your software ID key in a hardware crash, you download it again from your online account.

If making sure that people are following the rules is important to NewTek, LW could check in the local network for duplicate instances of LW and close them down (apart from the last one launched and rendernodes). Similar to what 3DCoat is doing:


A Serial Number is bound to a single user. Nobody else can use the Software on your computers. If you are a private individual, you may install and use the Software maximum on three computers — on one office computer and on two your personal home computers, provided that you do not use the Software simultaneously on more than one computer.

Sometimes the Software will connect to the Pilgway’s web-based server to check simultaneous use of the software on a computer. No private information will be transferred, except for the serial number authentication. Pilgway’s web-based server will prohibit the work of the Software in case several computers simultaneously use the Software with one serial number. In case of repeated simultaneous use of the same serial number on several computers the serial number and the normal work of the Software will be permanently blocked.

This could also be cracked of course and would probably be more of an annoyance to individuals forgetting they had a duplicate instance running of the software, than it would be a fully working copy protection.

But of course, its up to NewTek how they want to do this, I only hope they choose the sensible way (http://www.luxology.com/whatismodo/userfriendlypolicies.aspx) (since everything else about CORE is).

:newtek: & :lwicon: = :thumbsup:

Dongle & copy protection = :twak:

jayroth
03-06-2009, 11:12 AM
Well, it took a while but I got an answer from Newtek Europe.

I need to move away from my ancient dongle to a USB one, not least as my current new shiny PC has no serial port. But it occured to me that there might be complications. In particular we have read that Core will play nicely with Linux, and also we know the a big barrier to getting the current Lightwave onto Linux (Under WINE) is that the dongle doesn't work under Linux.

So I sent an email too Newtek Europe asking if Core might require a new dongle to work under Linux. And got the response "There is no exact information at this time - but it appears a new dongle will be necessary"

So it's not only a case of paying 75 Euros just for the copy protection update, but it looks like I may have to do the same thing again in the near future.

Now I notice the warnings about it not being certain yet, but I'd really hope that this is not as described. Or that the second updated dongle would be provided free of charge to anyone who upgraded in (say) the year before it came out.

I accept the need for Netek to use systems like this, and find a dongle a much better method than the painful activation used by the likes of Vue. But this does seem a bit much to swallow.

Nick

Whoever gave you this information is just guessing; we are still investigating a variety of licensing options.

MentalFish
03-06-2009, 11:15 AM
Whoever gave you this information is just guessing; we are still investigating a variety of licensing options.

Good to hear :thumbsup: :newtek:

starbase1
03-06-2009, 12:19 PM
Whoever gave you this information is just guessing; we are still investigating a variety of licensing options.

Thanks Jay,
It was Carole at Newtek Europe. I guess here statement of it being possible is compatible with yours of not decided yet.

I have also just found a clarification in my email inbox, which expands on the issue:


However we can reassure you - as a HardCORE member you are entitled to all benefits. One of these is: Shipping version of the LightWave CORE™ software scheduled for Q4 release. Therefore, if there is a new USB dongle, it will be automatically sent to you.

So it sounds like it is safe to buy a USB dongle without the possibility of paying again in some months. Which is great, and what I wanted to know.

Personally I am in favour of the dongle system, what with multiple boots and reinstalling windows and PC upgrades over the years, I have lost count of the number of times I have installed my favourite graphics program!

(And if you want to see how NOT to do it, try moving Vue around, complete with upgrades!)

Thanks again,
Nick

zapper1998
03-06-2009, 01:30 PM
Stick with the DONGLE.....
less hassle..
I hope they do..

MentalFish
03-06-2009, 11:22 PM
I agree there are definitely many ways of doing it wrong in terms of licensing software:
- Bind it to some hardware id on the computer (network card or other)
- Maximum installs before you need a new license
- Bound to OS, as with Adobe

Treating the customer as a potential criminal until proven wrong is generally a bad way of handling it.

I don't see though how a dongle is any benefit to say a licensing option such as the one coming with modo:

Licensed to you, not your machine

Machines come and go. Good software is forever. That's why Luxology licenses its products to you, not to your machines. Our straightforward licensing philosophy allows you to use modo on the machine you need to use it on, period. Lost your hard-drive in a crash? No need to contact us and beg us for a new license. Go download your license from your Luxology account! Good software should make your job easier, not create obstacles.

I guess I have ranted enough about my standpoint, so I'll get back to getting stuff done. I'll just have to remember to crawl under the table to unplug the dongle when I go home, just in case I need it :D

:2guns: dongle

GandB
03-07-2009, 11:22 AM
Not a fan of the dongle either.

LightWuv
03-07-2009, 01:38 PM
There are USB-RS232 serial port adapters available,
Here is one for 13 usd http://www.usbgear.com/USB-Serial.html
and USB-parallel port adapters for 18 usd
http://shopper.cnet.com/networking/parallel-port-to-usb/4014-3243_9-4778227.html

What the genius said. :thumbsup:

starbase1
03-07-2009, 05:18 PM
The USB to Serial adaptors are for the small 'joystick' type connectors, NOT the type used for the old dongle.

Sensei
03-07-2009, 05:26 PM
LW dongle is not using serial port but parallel port (old printer port is parallel- all bits go in the same time, in serial port bit is send by bit). That's why I showed that both USB adapters are available. Have not tried any by myself thought. Can somebody with old dongle check whether it's working at all?

Drocket
03-07-2009, 05:55 PM
[QUOTE=petterms;846834
But of course, its up to NewTek how they want to do this, I only hope they choose the "sensible way" (since everything else about CORE is).
[/QUOTE]

Of course you do realize doing it the "sensible way" means you are not allowed to sell your copy of modo if you want to like you can with lw and the dongle. This might be a big problem for some people.

GandB
03-08-2009, 10:52 AM
At least with the dongle you can move it EASILY from computer to computer.
What's hard about entering a code, in order to use your application? Dongle's can break (just because yours hasn't yet, doesn't mean others won't)...codes/keys do not. While you're waiting for a replacement dongle, you are (or may be) losing valuable time...not to mention the potential cost. Doesn't make any sense. Either way, you have to have a copy of the program to install on the computer, in order to run it in the first place.

Suppose you go on a trip and forget your dongle; now you're out of luck, unless you can register your app with a simple code/serial key. As far as piracy goes; everything (including LW with it's dongle) is pirated, there's no way around it.

So, I say again, do away with the dongle. :2guns:

-Keith

MentalFish
03-08-2009, 01:49 PM
Of course you do realize doing it the "sensible way" means you are not allowed to sell your copy of modo if you want to like you can with lw and the dongle. This might be a big problem for some people.

OK, if it is not possible to sell your modo license, then that is a bad policy by Luxology. NewTek should take the route of "The software is bound to you, and if you choose to pass on your license to someone else, you can not use it anymore". I hear the question coming up, "Then how can they know you are not keeping the serial and using it anyway?", i suggest the following:

You go to your online NewTek account, choose transfer license, specify the details of the new owner, and the current serial will be invalid and the new owner will get a new one. As with 3D Coat, the application could nuke itself if it finds it has "expired". That requires the machine to be online at some time, so if someone tries to keep it offline for as long as possible to keep using it illegally, they are just dumb by not googling for a cracked version instead. Not saying they should, but anyone can use LW without a license or dongle, so the physical dongle does not provide NewTek with any guarantees of legal usage.

Think of the serial or key-file as a software based dongle. Bring your key file on a USB stick and use it as a dongle if you need to go to a client and use one of their machines with a temporary install of LW.

As my office mate here also suggested, NewTek could even run a license server solution so you can do a temporary login to a LW install, "authenticate user for one session usage", as a backup/alternative to serial or key file solution.

Now that I'm at it, NewTek should also have a server solution for plugins and scripts, Flay.com meets Apple's App Store, free solutions and commercial alike (Edit: or like Add-ons in Firefox + App Store). But that subject is a different thread.

mattclary
03-08-2009, 02:22 PM
As my office mate here also suggested, NewTek could even run a license server solution so you can do a temporary login to a LW install, "authenticate user for one session usage", as a backup/alternative to serial or key file solution.

Now that I'm at it, NewTek should also have a server solution for plugins and scripts, Flay.com meets Apple's App Store, free solutions and commercial alike (Edit: or like Add-ons in Firefox + App Store). But that subject is a different thread.

Screw all that sh1t. Why is everyone trying to reinvent the wheel?

I love the dongle system. I do NOT like activation servers and online authentication. If your dongle is lost, stolen, or broken, I hear NewTek is really good about working with you on that. If you forgot your dongle at home, look at it as a form of natural selection. You can't work, you can't eat, you can't pass your forgetful genes on to your forgetful little kids.

Myagi
03-08-2009, 03:00 PM
this subject seems to be going in circles :) They way Mike_RB described the Modo system, it's basically a software dongle, a simple file you copy to the install you want to run and voila. Heck you could even put that file on an USB stick and you have your USB dongle.

I've never used that, and I like the dongle, but I must say a simple file replacing the dongle sounds even better. Allthough a bit easier to circumvent so from NT's POV I understand sticking to the dongle.

starbase1
03-08-2009, 03:10 PM
What's hard about entering a code, in order to use your application?

So, I say again, do away with the dongle. :2guns:

-Keith

Depends very much on how it is implemented.

If it's a system where you are not limited in the number of times you can enter it, (Like PT Gui, Starpro, and Others), that is relatively painless.

However if you are limited in the number of times you can install, (Particle Illusion, Vue), 3 seems typical, it's a pain. for example, I have LW twice on 2 pc's, (not counting the process of moving to the new one), that's once for XP64 and once for XP32, and once on the laptop, total 5.

And once you get into reinstalls, it's even worse...

And to track the numbers, it's a connect to the web site controlling things, so tough if you can't get online...

Go the full Vue route, where in order to move you have to reinstall every ***ing version between the one you bought first and all versions since, activating them all, and you will soon understand why I won't be buying an upgrade to Vue...

Nick

MentalFish
03-08-2009, 03:21 PM
Screw all that sh1t. Why is everyone trying to reinvent the wheel?
I can't see anyone else having an integrated plugin and scripts solution in their 3D app, or multiple ways of authenticating your license for that matter. Isn't freedom of choice a nice thing?


If you forgot your dongle at home, look at it as a form of natural selection. You can't work, you can't eat, you can't pass your forgetful genes on to your forgetful little kids.
What a nice and friendly thing to say to someone. I wish you well too.


Suppose you forget your code and can't get online? If you are dumb enough to forget your dongle when you KNOW you will need it, too bad.
In addition to the dongle, you still need to enter the license key, which is located at register.newtek.com (as well as my offline backup of it).

Going home from work with no intention to work later on, but then you feel the urge to do something creative, is that also being dumb?

MentalFish
03-08-2009, 03:24 PM
I've never used that, and I like the dongle, but I must say a simple file replacing the dongle sounds even better. Allthough a bit easier to circumvent so from NT's POV I understand sticking to the dongle.

:agree: I guess that sums up what I am thinking too :thumbsup: Its easy to send a file to someone else so they can use it too, but its just as easy too google for a crack... :)

hrgiger
03-08-2009, 05:53 PM
Well, I like the dongle myself but I won't argue about it so violently. I will say that i did not like the license server with XSI and missed the sheer simplicity of the dongle. I really don't want anything that requires I be connected to the net to start my software.
I say since we're moving to the future with Core, we go with Retina scans or fingerprint ID. Not only would it be effective, but it'd be fun too.

geothefaust
03-08-2009, 06:20 PM
I'd prefer blood sample authentication myself.

:p

MentalFish
03-08-2009, 06:23 PM
I'd prefer blood sample authentication myself.

:p

The dongle could have a needle tip so you can press on it to get the required sample that way.

mattclary
03-08-2009, 07:13 PM
I'd prefer blood sample authentication myself.

:p


I was thinking semen sample, but yeah, guess blood would work. My way is less painful though...

starbase1
03-08-2009, 11:38 PM
I was thinking semen sample, but yeah, guess blood would work. My way is less painful though...

Depends very much on how you collect the sample! And I really don't want to hear how you think female LW users would manage...

GandB
03-09-2009, 09:40 AM
Once you've loaded LW on ANY computer you will have that license code already on the machine. All you have to do then is just plug in the dongle and that's it.
But what if you forgot that code at home? We are going around in circles. :D

starbase1
03-09-2009, 10:01 AM
Sigh...

Here's how it should be done.

1. Retain a USB dongle.
2. Combine it with a Micro SD slot or similar - my 3g modem has this.
3. Install LW directly to the storage on the dongle.

Top up with any files for your current projects, and wherever you have your dongle, you have a working copy of Lightwave.

Of course, if you get a Linux Core install, you can also include your entire operating system, and just boot from the dongle.

GandB
03-09-2009, 10:27 AM
That's about the best idea overall, SB.

mattclary
03-09-2009, 01:24 PM
Depends very much on how you collect the sample! And I really don't want to hear how you think female LW users would manage...

Well, I wasn't exactly picturing a large bore needle...

There are what, like 4 women in the world who use LightWave? And one of them defected to XSI... ;)