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eggpro
03-02-2009, 09:14 AM
I am still on the fence with LW Core. Most of this has to do with the fact that it comes out almost a year from now, and who know what will be going on with anything at that time.

April 1st the price goes up to $495. When dose it go up to the $695. I asked newtek and they said that they had no info about it going up to that price.

I re watched the Core video and Guess what there is no pricing info in it now.

So is it still going up to $695 or is $495 the final upgrade price.

rsfd
03-02-2009, 10:04 AM
Hello, as far as I understand:

For LW 9 owners: $395,- through March 31 / $495,- starting April 1st.
For LW 8 (and older) owners: $495,- (from now)
For owners of other 3D packages: $595,- (from now through March 31)
For those, who start with 3D: $865,- (from now) for LW9.6 (including HardCORE membership) and $1495,- when CORE v.1.0 will be released.

NewTek removed that price switch for LW 9.x owners from the Core page (where it was at the beginning).
But as $495,- is the regular LW upgrade price, I assume that LW 9.x owners will pay the standard upgrade price from April 1st. (at least until first CORE release).

I never read about a $695,- price.
And I never found an information about pricing after 1st LW CORE is released (only $395,- for the early adopters is guaranteed for the next year). So it could be that upgrade prices will go up too.

eggpro
03-02-2009, 10:27 AM
I found a PR that had it in
New LightWave v9 purchases through March 31, 2009 are available for US$895 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE. LightWave CORE is slated for a Q4 2009 release. LightWave CORE will retail for US$1495, LightWave CORE upgrades will be US$695.

http://www.newtek.com/news/pressrelease.php?viewpr=97

So it look like if I weight till it comes out the price will be $695. So am I right?

dwburman
03-02-2009, 10:35 AM
That is the way I've always interpreted it. After core is released, the upgrade price is $695.

You save $200 by upgrading before then... $300 by upgrading (buying core membership) by the end of the month.

eggpro
03-02-2009, 10:38 AM
Thanks, that's what I also thought. SO it's best to just pay now and see what we get.

Phrog
03-02-2009, 10:38 AM
April 1st the price goes up to $495. When dose it go up to the $695. I asked newtek and they said that they had no info about it going up to that price.

So is it still going up to $695 or is $495 the final upgrade price.

According to the core FAQ:

-Will there be an increase in price for LightWave CORE™ ?
-LightWave CORE™ will retail for US$1495, LightWave CORE™ upgrades will be US$695.

but it is not well spelled out if this is for an upgrade from another program or for current Lightwave owners (from older versions). To put another wrench in things Jay Roth had stated that current Charter Member Hardcore members will pay $395.00 next year for a hardcore renewal and possibly for the foreseeable future. That seems like a huge discrepency. So if I wait until after March 31st and pay $495.00 then it will rise to $695.00 next year unless I buy a hardcore membership now?? It would nice if someone could officially set the record straight. It seems funny though that when you call Newtek they don't seem to know themselves!

rsfd
03-02-2009, 02:27 PM
@ eggpro, @dwburman

yes, you were right: Upgrade price for Lightwavers after first CORE release will be $695,- (thanks for that link to the pressrelease).

@Phrog
according to the CORE page:
the special upgrade (or better said: cross-grade) price for owners of other 3D packages will end on March, 31. After that (as far as I understand) these people will have to wait for the first CORE release and will then pay $1495,- (exept NewTek introduces a new special offer then).
Any LW owners will pay $495,- after March, 31st but before CORE v1.0 release.
But membership prices?

Think NewTek has some (Monty) Phyton already in here :stumped:

HarverdGrad
03-03-2009, 04:47 PM
I think it's going to be interesting at the end of the year when they try to sell CORE at $1495. More likely, they are going to bundle it with 9.6 because I don't believe it will be a full, production ready solution in just 9 short months.

dwburman
03-04-2009, 12:05 AM
Post by Jay mentioning Q4 release and LW9.x (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=837851&postcount=204).

I can say, with certainty, that the Q4 release will not have all of the features of LightWave v9.6. In many cases, CORE will offer features beyond those of LightWave v9.6, but not in all cases. LightWave v9.6 was made very robust and feature rich in anticipation of a transition period between the old and new technologies. What CORE will not address in the Q4 time frame is addressed by the original LightWave, and as much as we can, CORE will offer a good interchange with the original LightWave.

mkiii
03-07-2009, 10:45 AM
What I still don't understand here is are they still going to release updates to 9.6, but deny them to non HC members? That is the impression I get.

I saw the bit about releasing bug fixes, but it isn't really that clear to me whether these will be available to all users, and I have already waded through enough waffle and speculation on these forums to make my brain melt.

TBH, my feelings about this are leaning towards annoyance that after years of waiting for modeler to get anywhere near the attention that layout has had, update after update, I find that the effort was never going to happen in LW 9.x. Anyhoo - I'm not getting into the pre-pay thing again, so good luck & bon voyage you guys, I may be back when LW 10... sorry Core.. is released.

hrgiger
03-07-2009, 03:04 PM
What I still don't understand here is are they still going to release updates to 9.6, but deny them to non HC members? That is the impression I get.

I saw the bit about releasing bug fixes, but it isn't really that clear to me whether these will be available to all users, and I have already waded through enough waffle and speculation on these forums to make my brain melt.

TBH, my feelings about this are leaning towards annoyance that after years of waiting for modeler to get anywhere near the attention that layout has had, update after update, I find that the effort was never going to happen in LW 9.x. Anyhoo - I'm not getting into the pre-pay thing again, so good luck & bon voyage you guys, I may be back when LW 10... sorry Core.. is released.

9.6 is pretty much a done deal as far as 9.6 is concerned. Any releases from this point on for 9.6 will only be for allowing it to work in a limited capacity with Core as Core by itself will have limited functionality for the short term future. I think the intent is to use 9.6 to make up for any of those short term deficiancies.
If there is a maintenance release with some bug fixes for 9.6, it will probably still be free for non-Core users. But I think we've all seen the end of any significant advancements of old legacy Lightwave. The focus now is Core.
I could be off on this info but that is my impression from what Newtek has said.

rsfd
03-07-2009, 04:20 PM
From Jay Roth's "More from the Core" thread:

As you know, we recently shipped LightWave 9.6, and you've told us that it's, hands-down, the very best version of LightWave we've ever-shipped. Of course, no software product is ever perfect, so we will continue to support LightWave 9.x by providing technical support, and free bug-fix releases as deemed necessary by NewTek. However, we do not plan any new feature releases in the 9.x series. All the improvements that we have planned for LightWave will be offered as part of the HardCORE membership program.

So I expect at least bug-fixes to LW9.6 to be free for everyone (if NT deems them necessary).

As I don't expect Core to be production ready so far and being a Mac-user, I am more anxious that non-HC Members will not get the 64-bit cocoa version at all or that they will have to pay an extra-fee.
My disappointment about that core-thing grows constantly as I really expected to get at least that much information to be able to make a clear decision about joining or not.
By the status of today I too will not buy into a black-box.
I know what I'm in need during the upcoming year and if NT is not able to show me a clear perspective, then I will have to find alternatives.
(Surely I don't expect a full feature list, but I would like to know whether and how I will be able to work with Core during that year or if Core is only to play with).

At the moment I have to agree with wsantiago (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=846546&postcount=904):

Please just tell me that you need to get paid ahead of time to continue to develop lw. Tell me that you are the beginning of a journey and have very little to show. But don't insult my intelligence by showing me a still image of how well Core manipulates millions of polygons.

on the (now so spare) "More about..." thread.

inquisitive
03-07-2009, 11:37 PM
I think it's going to be interesting at the end of the year when they try to sell CORE at $1495. More likely, they are going to bundle it with 9.6 because I don't believe it will be a full, production ready solution in just 9 short months.

This is where I am, in regards to my question and being on the fence as well.

If one is paying for the upgrade now, and after 1yr the CORE is 1/4 finished and every year is another 1/4 of program released, then you stand to pay close to $2000 after 4years.

?

mkiii
03-08-2009, 04:44 AM
I get the feeling that LW Core is going to be sold to all the Hardcore fans (pun intended) regardless of content, but having been a "beta" user since the V6.0 Betaforce (paid for), I don't really see the need to become a paid Alpha tester right now.

Plainly new buyers are at no disadvantage if they buy LW now, since they are getting 9.6 and any updates, but I don't get how 9.6 owners who aren't into the "having it for the sake of it" thing are going to benefit. This may just be because of the marketing confusion, and all will become clear in the coming weeks.

The concept that you are going to be ahead of the game by buying into it now is a bit false. If you already know LW, you probably also use other apps occasionally.. How long did it take you to get up to speed with them, a week, 2? No big deal, and I don't honestly forsee V10 being so radically different to 9.6 in use that you nead a whole year or 2 paid for "training" to get to grips with it.

Let's hope so for NTs sake, but I for one would want to see a proper list & timeline for the future release before I parted with any cash, even if it did mean my upgrade cost more. I hope it is all just bad communication right now, and that 10 / Core is a successful app especially since the nearest (imo) competitor XSI Foundation was so unceremoniously killed off.

colkai
03-08-2009, 06:40 AM
I for one would want to see a proper list & timeline for the future release before I parted with any cash, even if it did mean my upgrade cost more. I hope it is all just bad communication right now, and that 10 / Core is a successful app especially since the nearest (imo) competitor XSI Foundation was so unceremoniously killed off.

I think that's only right and fair, I also agree about Foundation being killed off, I had been looking in that direction, but AD made that choice very clear for me. No surprise really considering what they did with Motionbuilder.

hrgiger
03-08-2009, 08:08 AM
I think mkiii, you fall under the category of people who should wait and see when it comes to Core. Newtek knows that not everyone is going to upgrade sight unseen and everyones reasons will be different for upgrading. I think for those that are needing an application that will replace something they are currently using will probably need to hold off until there's more infomation available.
For me, it was pretty easy. I don't use Lightwave currently to make money but I am pretty committed to using Lightwave so Core is the next logical step. I don't see a better alternative out there for the price. Now that XSI has fallen under the shadow of AD, I've lost my taste for it. And yeah, it's too bad about Foundation. I'm sure that was AD's doing, probably a requirement for their acquistion or something. Making a great program like XSI available to so many with a low pricepoint entry said volumes about a company. And then killing that program spoke even more volumes about them changing direction.
I like Lightwave but was always frustrated by some of it's shortcomings with the old code. Core represents freedom from those bonds and seems likely to deliver on a lot of the things that I went to XSI for in the first place. It may not be overnight or even the end of this year, but I'm interested in supporting that happening. So that's my deal, it's more then understandable that yours and everyones elese reasons or requirements are different.

Chrizto
03-08-2009, 10:55 AM
This is where I am, in regards to my question and being on the fence as well.

If one is paying for the upgrade now, and after 1yr the CORE is 1/4 finished and every year is another 1/4 of program released, then you stand to pay close to $2000 after 4years.

?

Hey. The development of Core has already passed three years, behind the scenes.
Even if NT is not releasing features to the public in the "beta" phase of Core, doesn't mean that code for it does not exist. It just needs to get stabilized.

Off course when the full version is released for 1495,-, no one would buy a semi-finished product.

Get a grip.

hrgiger
03-08-2009, 11:02 AM
Hey. The development of Core has already passed three years, behind the scenes.
Even if NT is not releasing features to the public in the "beta" phase of Core, doesn't mean that code for it does not exist. It just needs to get stabilized.



Well, technically two years was nothing but planning and design. I don't think any development was going on in that time.

mkiii
03-08-2009, 10:27 PM
HR.
Unfortunately, I am in the position of having to choose money earner over hobby app these days. I am certainly waiting to see what v10 has to offer when it is finished.

I still have LW 9.6, but if I'm honest, I rarely use it these days, since most of my work over the past year or so has been with Maya, Max or Modo, and 90% games work involving pure modelling & painting, oh and I have been using 3d Coat which is great fun (shame it doesn't begin with an M).

rsfd
03-10-2009, 09:27 AM
That's were I am too.
Switching from LW to Modo and back isn't a workflow enhancer, but everything I can do these days.
After that countdown expectations flew high, but dissappointment grew during the following weeks while NT nearly stopped to communicate and allowed realism to enter.

I certainly will observe what Core will have to offer and it's likely that I will upgrade, when Core offers what I am in need. But as Modo develops, it could be that it reaches that state first. And I don't need two apps doing the same.

@Chritzto
btw. ICE for Softimage took 4 years in development. And that is just one (powerful) part of a full application. But there is no Mac-version and I completely dislike their maintainance system. (paying $800,- for maintainance to get a $350,- UV tool? That's no entertainment, that's exploitation).

wsantiago
03-12-2009, 11:07 AM
Hey. The development of Core has already passed three years, behind the scenes.
Even if NT is not releasing features to the public in the "beta" phase of Core, doesn't mean that code for it does not exist. It just needs to get stabilized.


Says you. And what inside knowledge channel are you tuned into.

Newtek isn't saying much.
They had a crash in their infamous introduction to core and then crash again by not editing it out of the video. Here we are almost midway thru March and still no info or videos.

Something seems very wrong with Newtek. It seems that whoever is running the show their now doen't have a clue. I have been using LW for about 18 years now and I have never seen this company so undecided. I'm
beginning to wonder if Newtek can make it thru the bad economic times we are going thru.

Lucky for me I can continue to make a living with lightwave 9.6.

Sekhar
03-12-2009, 11:16 AM
I have been using LW for about 18 years now

Wow.

eggpro
03-12-2009, 11:38 AM
Yes I have to say I am very disappointed with Newtek at the moment. It seams like if there is info that it's just being given to the core users. You can see on forums like spinquad that postings are way down, so is everyone just posting on the hardcore site?

I am the last Lightwave holdout at my work. I love Lightwave. But I do have to say that Maya will be my 3D app soon, unless I can give my bosses something to let me keep using Lightwave.

hrgiger
03-12-2009, 02:55 PM
We're not seeing much more then you in the CORE forums if that puts your mind at rest. Newtek is hard at work to get the first build out by the end of March. I'm sure by then we'll all have more information.
Try to be patient, Newtek is bringing us a brand new Lightwave after all. Sometimes when you want to get anything done, you have just have to do to your room and shut the door for a little while.
Pagnozzi, I'm not sure why you think they don't know what CORE is. They've given us some very specific information on where CORE is headed. As far as instancing goes, it is just as much a modeling function as it is something to render so it makes sense that we will have it early on.

wsantiago
03-12-2009, 10:10 PM
We're not seeing much more then you in the CORE forums if that puts your mind at rest. Newtek is hard at work to get the first build out by the end of March. I'm sure by then we'll all have more information.

The way they talked I was expecting the first build before the beginning of March not the end of March. The end of March is the deadline for the price incentive. You are not seen much more in the CORE forums because there ain't nothing to see.


Try to be patient, Newtek is bringing us a brand new Lightwave after all. Sometimes when you want to get anything done, you have just have to do to your room and shut the door for a little while.

You don't put out statements that more info and videos will be available very soon and then crawl into your room and shut the door.


Pagnozzi, I'm not sure why you think they don't know what CORE is. They've given us some very specific information on where CORE is headed.

Even they admit that they can't be specific on any features of lightwave.

modeling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year. We will discuss specifics as we move along with the project



As far as instancing goes, it is just as much a modeling function as it is something to render so it makes sense that we will have it early on.

Hell, I had instances(HDInstance) and fur(Sasquatch) among other things in lightwave for years now. they just haven't been provided by the lightwave development team and there is where my concerns are. It seems that outside developers know their way around the "old code" better than the new programmers at Newtek. Maybe the "old code" is not as bad as the new programmers they have. After all in the latest versions of lightwave it seems that they bought and incorporated more features from outside developers than they actually developed.

My concern is that they will continue to develop half bake ideas and kill some of the good features that lightwave now has because they can't figure them out. My concerns have increased with the terrible handling of this transition from 9.x to CORE which by the way according to Newtek has been taking place for the last 2 years.

hrgiger
03-12-2009, 11:18 PM
Even they admit that they can't be specific on any features of lightwave.
Hell, I had instances(HDInstance) and fur(Sasquatch) among other things in lightwave for years now. they just haven't been provided by the lightwave development team and there is where my concerns are. It seems that outside developers know their way around the "old code" better than the new programmers at Newtek. Maybe the "old code" is not as bad as the new programmers they have. After all in the latest versions of lightwave it seems that they bought and incorporated more features from outside developers than they actually developed.
My concern is that they will continue to develop half bake ideas and kill some of the good features that lightwave now has because they can't figure them out. My concerns have increased with the terrible handling of this transition from 9.x to CORE which by the way according to Newtek has been taking place for the last 2 years.

With all due respect to Sasquatch and HDInstance, they are both great plug-ins but with severe and unfortunate limitations. This is due to the limitations of the current SDK and also the way Lightwave handles geometry(badly). The "old code" is just that- old- and in serious need of modernization. If you can't see that potential with CORE, well, so be it. And I believe you're misinformed about the latest versions of Lightwave. It was all developed by Newtek, not just a bunch of bought plug-ins like you're implying. Yes, FiberFX was brought on but they also hired the developer so it's still being worked on in-house.
And it's been a little over a month since they've announced CORE. I think people are being a wee bit impatient when it comes to news. Can you blame Newtek for taking a while to put out more news after the beating they took after the reveal? Perhaps they're making sure that what they show next is worth everyones time.
And this isn't really a transition as much as it is a new beginning. CORE is a completely new program. It's not old lightwave being ported over into a new Lightwave. They're not taking old code and translating it over so that you'll have a slightly improved 9.6. That would be a waste of both our time and theirs.
The bottom line is, Newtek is still devloping the initial release of CORE so of course they can't give you specifics or feature lists(not sure why that shocks anyone). They have given you a chance to buy in early for a discount and have given you a glimpse of the program and they have given much info on the architecture and framework behind it. If that's not enough for you to feel comfortable buying in now, then wait and see when more information is available. They are working on providing more information when they are able. But apparently a lot of people feel as though they have passed some imaginary deadline to provide it. The word soon might have meant a week ago for you, but for Newtek it might have meant as soon as we feel it's ready to release.

geo_n
03-13-2009, 12:06 AM
I am hardcoremember and I have the same feeling!
... it seems they dont know what they are working on for me! They dont can exactly say what Core is! They can only show custom-colors for UI and stuff like high subdivlevels with open-gl! They can only say focus is modeling, but they dont can show why they start showing us instances if they are not capable of rendering? ...very strange feeling about the future of Newtek!

Thats very disturbing news from hc member even without posting specifics. I thought you guys were getting the best of it. Looks like it was a good decision to hold off for me. I can't believe there's nothing new mid march. I'll do with 9.6. My friend is thinking between kray or core license. Seems an easier decision.

Sekhar
03-13-2009, 12:10 AM
Uh oh, I thought we finally had a thread dedicated to pricing (a topic of great interest for those of us who aren't on HC yet), but looks like this one's turning into another "More from the CORE" thread. Everyone, would you please restrict discussion to pricing or related topics? Only because it's so hard to dig through tons of back/forth exchanges.

wsantiago
03-13-2009, 01:58 AM
Okay Pricing $395 to upgrade before April Fools Day. $695 if you wait for first release in Q4 assuming that there is a release in Q4.

So 395 + 395 = 790 if you upgrade before Fools Day and again re-up for hardcore for release at Q4 of next year.

So lets skip the first release which is going to be all modeler and wait for the second release if by then it is a worthy program you pay $695 for a savings of $95. If not you skip that upgrade too. The more upgrades you skip until Core is up tp par with 9.6 the more you save.

Skonk
03-13-2009, 03:44 AM
The whole "core" thing up to now has been complete shambles.

I bought into core on the evening of the "reveal" and after 3 weeks of absolutly nothing useful in the HC forum section and a general lack of any real tangible information about what I had actually bought; I asked for a refund.

I paid up based on what Jay said core could do in the reveal video, turns out the version I would have got in Q4 would not do anywhere near all the things he stated in the reveal (and I'm talking about things that have been confirmed by Jay himself that wont be in the Q4 release dispite being mentioned as part of the reveal).

He spoke in the reveal about features and concepts that core has the potential for, as if they would be in the package in time for release but the reality is these things may not appear untill version 2 or 3 etc and these would be paid upgrades so by the time we get a complete core with features to surpass those of lightwave 9.6, I may have ended up paying for 2 or 3 versions.

So for now I'm putting my refund into some other software (I have almost 40 LW 9 licenses on my account, all of which were potential core upgrades had Newtek handled the whole thing better); maybe when core has gone through several versions and matured a bit... I dunno.

What really got me about the whole thing was the horrible cryptic responses people were getting to their questions; Newtek staff acting like politicians and spin doctors, answering questions without ever actually giving a real answer to them. Some people read them and thought they got an answer while others read them and just ended up more confused.

If I hadnt joined right away based on the reveal and the tech specs, maybe I wouldn't have been so miffed but thats not how it happened. The reveal did what you have to assume was it's intention; in that it got my interest and convinced me to buy.

But what we were told about in the reveal is not the product we would receive in the Q4 release.....

hrgiger
03-13-2009, 04:25 AM
The whole "core" thing up to now has been complete shambles.



Well, I won't argue because it's pointless but you're clearly spreading misinformation here.

Skonk
03-13-2009, 05:06 AM
Well, I won't argue because it's pointless but you're clearly spreading misinformation here.

How exactly am I spreading misinformation?

GandB
03-13-2009, 05:49 AM
@Skonk; thanks for the info. Looks like I was right to hold off on scraping up the money. I'll wait to see what NT actually has implemented in Core (ie., a demo) first.

He says he's had access to the HC Forums from the beginning; not sure how he's "spreading misinformation".

Skonk
03-13-2009, 06:21 AM
hrgiger thinking I'm spreading miss-info actually goes some way towards proving my point.

I'm sure hrgiger, or anyone for that matter to dig around in the various CORE related forum posts and gather information to show that CORE is going to be everything they think it's going to be.

But then I, or anyone else could do the same and gather a load of information to show the opposite.

Pretty much every statement made by Newtek on the subject can be taking in multiple ways, read differently, used to prove people wrong, used to prove people right.

Nothing is clear, it's all smoke and mirrors, spin doctoring.

The fact is, everyone who has already bought in doesn't really know what they will get at the end of the year in terms of features (some will say it's clear, but then others who have access to the same information will say that none of the information makes it clear. Lots of confusion).

Anyone who is unsure whether to buy now or not is unable to get any solid information out of Newtek to help assure them that the purchase would be wise if they go ahead with it.

Meanwhile Newtek are dangling a carrot infront of everyones nose with the price reduction and it's deadline.

Take a leap of faith and maybe save some money, or maybe by the time the program does everything you NEED it to do you will have paid for 3 upgrades and not saved a thing; who knows?

wsantiago
03-13-2009, 08:06 AM
The whole "core" thing up to now has been complete shambles.

I paid up based on what Jay said core could do in the reveal video, turns out the version I would have got in Q4 would not do anywhere near all the things he stated in the reveal (and I'm talking about things that have been confirmed by Jay himself that wont be in the Q4 release dispite being mentioned as part of the reveal).


That's sad to hear because even in the reveal video there wasn't much reveal.

colkai
03-13-2009, 08:56 AM
Skonk, I dunno why you're so beat up about it.
Newtek have been very good and refunded you when you changed your mind about wanting the upgrade, to be honest, I don't know many companies that would of been so gracious.
So now why even bother whipping the matter up when you've made your displeasure obvious and withdrawn from any interest in core? Surely that does no-one, including yourself, any good whatsoever?

If you choose not to buy something for one reason or another, why waste so much time and effort still going over the same ground? You said you point, repeatedly, those who agree with you are clear I'm sure. Those who do not are not going to be swayed by your statements being repeated constantly.

As I say, you can walk away from this, had this been an Autodesk product, I'd wager, you would not be walking away with a refund.

Sekhar
03-13-2009, 09:28 AM
maybe Newtek should extend the special update price 4 weeks after they show real Videos and informations (not only talk about features)...

If the first build/videos/info gets delayed, they definitely should and likely will. Makes complete sense, after all there's nothing sacrosanct about 3/31.

colkai
03-13-2009, 10:08 AM
hello colkai,
I think I can understand him, he own multiple licenses of Lightwave, this mean he have to stick some time with Lightwave now! It isnt a step you can change in some days...
True, I grant you that, but I am one of those who always figured, at best, we'd see a work in progress, though I do have the advantage of being a developer for over 30 years myself so mayhap I see things slightly differently to other folks.

If I am being brutally honest, I don't see CORE coming close to anything like peoples expectations in this version, by which I DO include the Q4, (or whenever it is) release. Now, my personal opinions on that aside, it has always seemed clear to me.

I also do not deny, the build up left people thinking more would be coming than a "letter of intent" as it were, rumor ran rife and folks seemed to be thinking it would be a Maya beater out of the gate.

Disappointment is a bitter pill to swallow, but I still hold, not sure a refund would been forthcoming from any of the other software houses out there.

GandB
03-13-2009, 10:14 AM
after all there's nothing sacrosanct about 3/31.
What!! Do you have any idea how hard it is to engrave something in granite?? :D

*Puts away hammer and chisel...for now...*

markschum
03-13-2009, 11:14 AM
I too am very confused by core and I havent tried to read about it because a lot of the forum seemed to be user opinion about what was being offered. Newteks own comment was that if you paid now for the upgrade you were guarenteed to get one release of the product whenever it was released.

I have put that $500 aside and will decide to upgrade when Newtek has a demonstrated product that I can truly evaluate. At the moment I am leaning to dropping Lightwave and moving to 3ds max. Higher cost yes , but I have never had a crash when using Max , and LW always seems to crash with edge bevel or rounder.

I did try LW9 and there doesnt seem to be enough in modeller that useable to me. The edge selection tools dont seem to work with some tools like rounder and I am in the habit of having to select points anyway.

Sekhar
03-13-2009, 11:37 AM
At the moment I am leaning to dropping Lightwave and moving to 3ds max. Higher cost yes , but I have never had a crash when using Max , and LW always seems to crash with edge bevel or rounder.

I did try LW9 and there doesnt seem to be enough in modeller that useable to me. The edge selection tools dont seem to work with some tools like rounder and I am in the habit of having to select points anyway.

Did you try 9.6? It's been pretty solid for me for 64 bit on Vista (9.5 was relatively flaky), none of the issues you're talking about.

wsantiago
03-13-2009, 12:11 PM
Skonk, I dunno why you're so beat up about it.
Newtek have been very good and refunded you when you changed your mind about wanting the upgrade, to be honest, I don't know many companies that would of been so gracious.
So now why even bother whipping the matter up when you've made your displeasure obvious and withdrawn from any interest in core? Surely that does no-one, including yourself, any good whatsoever?

If you choose not to buy something for one reason or another, why waste so much time and effort still going over the same ground? You said you point, repeatedly, those who agree with you are clear I'm sure. Those who do not are not going to be swayed by your statements being repeated constantly.

As I say, you can walk away from this, had this been an Autodesk product, I'd wager, you would not be walking away with a refund.

He probably would have the right to demand his money back from any company including Autodesk since no product as been exchange yet, hell, there is no product to be sold just ideas and dreams.

He is so beat up about it because he has invested in 40 seats of LW and right now he doesn't know if those 40 dongles are going to become paper weights.

He keeps whipping the matter up because he is been accused of spreading misinformation and actually it does do some good for the people that are sitting on the fence.

Maybe by repeating his point instead of blindly submitting to Newtek it will force Newtek to rethink this campaign of misinformation or lack of information and have them simply give us the thruthful facts of where CORE is and what we can expect to get for our money.

I don't know if lightwave is a hobby for you or you use it to make a living. If is just a hobby then I can understand your attitude about giving CORE 3 years to catch up to 9.6. If you are using ligtwave to make a living then I can't understand your lay back atitude.

I think that CORE should have never been announced until it was developed to at least the 9.6 level without the bugs. But Newtek chose to do it this way now they are going to have to live with all the complaints.

I believe that they are licensing the software for the CORE interface which they showed in their introduction video and they showed instances, stacks and some kind of smart drawing thingy. Not a lot for 2 years of ongoing development, and yet they manage to have a crash. And to add insult to injury, they produce a still image to show us how easily Core handles millions of polygons. Insane. Whoever is in charge of promotions and sales should have been fired about 4 weeks ago.

Yes, and I will continue to complain until I get the information that should have been released on day 1 of this comedy.

Skonk
03-13-2009, 01:15 PM
Skonk, I dunno why you're so beat up about it.
Newtek have been very good and refunded you when you changed your mind about wanting the upgrade, to be honest, I don't know many companies that would of been so gracious.
So now why even bother whipping the matter up when you've made your displeasure obvious and withdrawn from any interest in core? Surely that does no-one, including yourself, any good whatsoever?

If you choose not to buy something for one reason or another, why waste so much time and effort still going over the same ground? You said you point, repeatedly, those who agree with you are clear I'm sure. Those who do not are not going to be swayed by your statements being repeated constantly.

As I say, you can walk away from this, had this been an Autodesk product, I'd wager, you would not be walking away with a refund.

I havn't posted on the forum in weeks so I'm not sure where your getting this "repeatedly" thing from.

hrgiger
03-13-2009, 02:57 PM
You're spreading misinformation Skonk because there is quite a bit of info on CORE in the CORE forums if you just choose to read it. In fact, we have a thread going with all the relevant information complied in an easy to read format. Jay has pretty much told us what we can expect for the Q1 release, told us the tools that we can expect to see as well as other things. Newtek is focused on the Q1 release and yes, they have chosen to answer questions focused on that release right now. That means that once the first build is out, we can start focusing on what's next. But you seem to wnat to jump right to the Q4 release and they havne't even released the first build yet. But you're not being truthful or you've just neglected to read much when you say that Newteks responses are smoke and mirrors and spin-doctoring. They have given very direct answers to some very direct questions. As I said, there is some very detailed information in the CORE forums if you just choose to read it.
He has also made it clear that if you need a complete feature list of what's going to be released in Q4, then the hardcore membership is not for you. They do not know yet what will be the status of CORE at that point. There's no mystery or smoke and mirrors about it. You seem to be one of ones that requires a complete breakdown before you make the decision to buy so you've probably made the right move for yourself to ask for a refund. But I dont' understand why you would make it out like Newtek has failed you in some way. The memberships haven't even officially started yet(as in your 1 year length membership) and will not start until the first build is released so I'm not sure how you can argue that we're not getting something for our money. How about we wait until that point?
You're also making things up about the Core reveal video. Jay talked about some of the things that will be in CORE but he did not mention a time table on when those things would be available. It was only your assumption that CORE would somehow be a complete application at the end of the year. It's never been a secret that CORE is already a complete application but the focus of the work right now is on the modeler.

Sekhar
03-13-2009, 03:45 PM
You're spreading misinformation Skonk...

I actually agree with Skonk - not that it'd matter to you HR, but I needed to say there're others who share his views.

When a company announces a new product, they need to spell out what the features will be, when it'll be out, and what it'll cost. This is part of business decision making 101. Prospects need to understand their choices fully so they can plan and make purchase decisions.

Imagine I'm a business owner going to newtek.com/core. Do I have enough info today to make a decision on HC for my company? Right now, no. I shouldn't have to glean the missing info from forums and try to make sense of it, even if I had time to waste.

E.g., basic questions: What do I get in the Q4 release? Modeler features only or Layout too? What will it cost me to join HC after Q4-09 (if I want the Q4-10 release)? Knowing all the answers will help me make a rational business decision on when (or whether) to get on board: now, before Q4, or later.

Notwithstanding what you (and some others already on HC) insist, we do NOT have the answers to these. If you know the answers to the questions above, please post. Note that what we're (at least I'm) looking for is information, not advice.

hrgiger
03-13-2009, 04:02 PM
I actually agree with Skonk - not that it'd matter to you HR, but I needed to say there're others who share his views.

When a company announces a new product, they need to spell out what the features will be, when it'll be out, and what it'll cost. This is part of business decision making 101. Prospects need to understand their choices fully so they can plan and make purchase decisions.

Imagine I'm a business owner going to newtek.com/core. Do I have enough info today to make a decision on HC for my company? Right now, no. I shouldn't have to glean the missing info from forums and try to make sense of it, even if I had time to waste.



Well, again i just have to point out that a hardcore membership might not be right for you at this point and Newtek seems to be perfectly ok with this fact. CORE is a new product and was just announced a little over a month ago. Newtek has offered you a cheaper upgrade path but with that comes a limited knowledge of what will be in the final upgrade. For some people that is fine, for others like yourself it is not. That's your decision. If you feel more comfortable waiting, then that's what you do. That's not to say that there wont' be more information coming, there will be. But that is the situation right now. If that's not good enough for you, then don't buy. But dont' say that Newtek is doing something terribly wrong because they're not appeasing your concerns right now. I think the product in the end will speak for itself or it won't.
As far as modeler and layout..there is no more modeler and layout. This is a new application. The concepts of modeler and layout no longer apply. For some of us, this knowledge alone is worth supporting.

Sekhar
03-13-2009, 04:12 PM
Well, again i just have to point out that a hardcore membership might not be right for you at this point and Newtek seems to be perfectly ok with this fact. CORE is a new product and was just announced a little over a month ago. Newtek has offered you a cheaper upgrade path but with that comes a limited knowledge of what will be in the final upgrade. For some people that is fine, for others like yourself it is not. That's your decision. If you feel more comfortable waiting, then that's what you do. That's not to say that there wont' be more information coming, there will be. But that is the situation right now. If that's not good enough for you, then don't buy. But dont' say that Newtek is doing something terribly wrong because they're not appeasing your concerns right now. I think the product in the end will speak for itself or it won't.
HR, I knew you were going to say this, that's why I specifically said I'm NOT looking for advice (no offense), but info. Also, I don't think you can/should speak on NT's behalf on whether or not they're OK with people not joining.


As far as modeler and layout..there is no more modeler and layout. This is a new application. The concepts of modeler and layout no longer apply. For some of us, this knowledge alone is worth supporting.
You know what I mean, the features corresponding to the current Layout.

frantbk
03-13-2009, 04:16 PM
I think that CORE should have never been announced until it was developed to at least the 9.6 level without the bugs. But Newtek chose to do it this way now they are going to have to live with all the complaints.

If you go back to the summer of 2008 and search the threads. I think you'll find a large number of threads that dealt with this subject. The theme of these threads were all about moving on to Lightwave 10 (now Core). A very large number, myself included, didn't want to spend anymore time on the 9.x series. That if Lightwave 10 wasn't due for release until late 2010-to-2012 time frame, then many of us wouldn't be interested in Lightwave by then.

I agree with you. NewTek knew this day was coming, maybe it came a little earlier than NT wanted, but here it is. People need some information. NT did say they intend to show video's of lighting, Render, and animation. NewTek just didn't say when.
:thumbsup: :thumbsdow :thumbsup: :stumped: is how I feel right now.

Celshader
03-13-2009, 04:50 PM
Maybe the "old code" is not as bad as the new programmers they have.

Hi,

I started using LightWave with 5.0 in 1997. I do not have a track record as long as yours.

However, please compare 6.0 with 7.5. Then compare the difference between 8.0 and 9.6. The difference between 8.0 and 9.6 is lightyears beyond that of 6.0 and 7.5, and it was done within a similar timespan to that between 6.0 and 7.5.

The new programming team produced a faster rate of development than the old team. They fixed bugs that the old team could not or would not fix. On top of that, the new team did all this with code that was not originally theirs. As a computer science grad, this impresses the hell out of me.

I can't wait to see the system that this new team built from scratch.

Thanks,

Jen

Nicolas Jordan
03-13-2009, 05:20 PM
the new team did all this with code that was not originally theirs. As a computer science grad, this impresses the hell out of me.


:agree: I would have to agree that it is an amazing feat that the new programmers have accomplished. I dare anyone to try and go back to using 7.5 after using 9.6 for a while and you will soon find out how much Lightwave has improved. :)

hrgiger
03-13-2009, 05:41 PM
Also, I don't think you can/should speak on NT's behalf on whether or not they're OK with people not joining.


Actually I'm just paraphrasing what Newtek said. Jay said as much...

his words "Now, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that the HardCORE program is probably not for everyone. If you need to know in advance every detail of every feature we're going to deliver before you make your decision, then you should most definitely wait until we ship the first LightWave CORE version and we publish a final feature list.
"

Sekhar
03-13-2009, 07:25 PM
Actually I'm just paraphrasing what Newtek said. Jay said as much...

his words "Now, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that the HardCORE program is probably not for everyone. If you need to know in advance every detail of every feature we're going to deliver before you make your decision, then you should most definitely wait until we ship the first LightWave CORE version and we publish a final feature list.
"

Come on HR, we're (certainly I'm) not asking for "every detail of every feature," but basic stuff like the questions I raised. Of course we understand NT can't spell out everything now.

I sense frustration on NT's side (and may be with folks like you who're bought into HC already) - that gnats like us are asking these pesky questions when they should either buy or shut up. All I can say is, that's not a winning or inclusive attitude.

Anyway, I think this thread is degenerating into the "More from the CORE" kind, so I'm going to stop. I'm pretty confident NT will come up with some info before 3/31, so all this squabbling would be moot.

frantbk
03-13-2009, 08:30 PM
Anyway, I think this thread is degenerating into the "More from the CORE" kind, so I'm going to stop. I'm pretty confident NT will come up with some info before 3/31, so all this squabbling would be moot.

You are such an optimistic person :thumbsup:. Depending on what NewTek says could stop the squabbling, or in-flame people more. I'm sorry to say I'm not that optimistic about any information coming before the end of March. What good would that do NewTek? If you haven't ponied up the $395.00 by now as Jay Roth's statement said "we understand."
Besides, why not make an extra $100.00 off people who cave-in and join HardCore so they can be part of the in group. Better late-then-never, even if it cost another $100.00.

NewTek, Core :gotpics:

wsantiago
03-14-2009, 12:03 AM
If you go back to the summer of 2008 and search the threads. I think you'll find a large number of threads that dealt with this subject. The theme of these threads were all about moving on to Lightwave 10 (now Core). A very large number, myself included, didn't want to spend anymore time on the 9.x series. That if Lightwave 10 wasn't due for release until late 2010-to-2012 time frame, then many of us wouldn't be interested in Lightwave by then.

I agree with you. NewTek knew this day was coming, maybe it came a little earlier than NT wanted, but here it is. People need some information. NT did say they intend to show video's of lighting, Render, and animation. NewTek just didn't say when.
:thumbsup: :thumbsdow :thumbsup: :stumped: is how I feel right now.

I got news for you, Lightwave 10 or CORE probably won't be released until 2012 if we are lucky. Until then, you are going to get Betas if they ever get pass this Apha phase. So you and that very large number might as well stop been interested in lightwave.

Those that make a living using lighwave, myself included, are stuck with 9.6 until CORE comes up to par so we have to keep talking about 9.6. Those that have lots of money and plenty of time to waste beta testing CORE can stop talking about 9.6 and care about where CORE is now and where is heading.

And by the way Newtek didn't move on to CORE(LW 10) because they were concern about you and your large group losing interest in Lightwave.
They move on to CORE probably prematurely because they need money. Hell they were atleast a year late delivering 9.0. Need and influx of quick money to continue development.

Sekhar
03-14-2009, 12:22 AM
Those that make a living using lighwave, myself included, are stuck with 9.6 until CORE comes up to par so we have to keep talking about 9.6.

Yeah, but 9.6 is one heck of a release, I love it.

wsantiago
03-14-2009, 12:41 AM
Hi,

I started using LightWave with 5.0 in 1997. I do not have a track record as long as yours.

However, please compare 6.0 with 7.5. Then compare the difference between 8.0 and 9.6. The difference between 8.0 and 9.6 is lightyears beyond that of 6.0 and 7.5, and it was done within a similar timespan to that between 6.0 and 7.5.


You compare them. You tell me what lightyears beyond "must have" to make my life easier innovations been added to lightwave since 6.0. I could name 2, IKBoost - quicker renderings.



The new programming team produced a faster rate of development than the old team. They fixed bugs that the old team could not or would not fix. On top of that, the new team did all this with code that was not originally theirs. As a computer science grad, this impresses the hell out of me.


They have been late delivering every upgrade and introduce as many bugs as they remove and constantly manage to brake 3rd party plugins.



I can't wait to see the system that this new team built from scratch.

Thanks,

Jen

Neither can I. Don't get me wrong, thought I don't like the way Newtek has handle this core ordeal, I am a great fan of Newtek. For many years Newtek has manage to keep the price of pro 3d software to where us common folks can afford them. I think they loss a lot when the old team left. I think that this new team has had problems with the old code which is to be understood.

Now they have something new in CORE written by them, at least the parts that they haven't license from other developers. So hopefully they will document everything as they develop it. Think it through so they wont have to keep redeveloping the same tool or many versions of the same tool. And if Newtek comes clean with us and cleans up this fiasco i would gladly donate $395 dollars even though I have no need nor do I want to Beta test. Its not about the money, its about been treated like an idiot. I feel like i have been disrespected by Newteks sales team. It seems that they took that class to write IBM's manuals. The one's that they fill up manuals with written pages but don't say much.

wsantiago
03-14-2009, 12:48 AM
:agree: I would have to agree that it is an amazing feat that the new programmers have accomplished. I dare anyone to try and go back to using 7.5 after using 9.6 for a while and you will soon find out how much Lightwave has improved. :)

Well hell, they move the buttons around. How are you expected to find your way around that horrible color scheme after all these years?

wsantiago
03-14-2009, 01:06 AM
You're spreading misinformation Skonk because there is quite a bit of info on CORE in the CORE forums if you just choose to read it. In fact, we have a thread going with all the relevant information complied in an easy to read format. Jay has pretty much told us what we can expect for the Q1 release, told us the tools that we can expect to see as well as other things. Newtek is focused on the Q1 release and yes, they have chosen to answer questions focused on that release right now. That means that once the first build is out, we can start focusing on what's next. But you seem to wnat to jump right to the Q4 release and they havne't even released the first build yet. But you're not being truthful or you've just neglected to read much when you say that Newteks responses are smoke and mirrors and spin-doctoring. They have given very direct answers to some very direct questions. As I said, there is some very detailed information in the CORE forums if you just choose to read it.
He has also made it clear that if you need a complete feature list of what's going to be released in Q4, then the hardcore membership is not for you. They do not know yet what will be the status of CORE at that point. There's no mystery or smoke and mirrors about it. You seem to be one of ones that requires a complete breakdown before you make the decision to buy so you've probably made the right move for yourself to ask for a refund. But I dont' understand why you would make it out like Newtek has failed you in some way. The memberships haven't even officially started yet(as in your 1 year length membership) and will not start until the first build is released so I'm not sure how you can argue that we're not getting something for our money. How about we wait until that point?
You're also making things up about the Core reveal video. Jay talked about some of the things that will be in CORE but he did not mention a time table on when those things would be available. It was only your assumption that CORE would somehow be a complete application at the end of the year. It's never been a secret that CORE is already a complete application but the focus of the work right now is on the modeler.

Obviously you are a hell of a lot better than us at reading comprehension. Or maybe your heart is not as evil as your avatar claims because you read all the goodness of Newtek in between the lines.

What you read in the CORE page I beleive is call Business Writing. A course taught in universities to teach people how to write a lot without saying anything and some folks are more than satisfy with the volumes of info been written. After all everywhere you click there is plenty of info. However, if you closely analyze this info you will realize that the same info is been repeated. Is like lawyers asking you the same question 20 different ways. In the end there is not much info there. Certainly not enough for a business to make a rational decision. I believe that Newtek intended this to be exactly what it is, they are charging you money for you to beta test for them. In exchange, they are giving you a break in the price. And again if they would have said this from the beginning I would have no problems parting with my money. It's just the sneaky and extreamly silent way that they have gone about it.

Celshader
03-14-2009, 01:46 AM
You compare them. You tell me what lightyears beyond "must have" to make my life easier innovations been added to lightwave since 6.0. I could name 2, IKBoost - quicker renderings.



They have been late delivering every upgrade and introduce as many bugs as they remove and constantly manage to brake 3rd party plugins.



Neither can I. Don't get me wrong, thought I don't like the way Newtek has handle this core ordeal, I am a great fan of Newtek. For many years Newtek has manage to keep the price of pro 3d software to where us common folks can afford them. I think they loss a lot when the old team left. I think that this new team has had problems with the old code which is to be understood.

Now they have something new in CORE written by them, at least the parts that they haven't license from other developers. So hopefully they will document everything as they develop it. Think it through so they wont have to keep redeveloping the same tool or many versions of the same tool. And if Newtek comes clean with us and cleans up this fiasco i would gladly donate $395 dollars even though I have no need nor do I want to Beta test. Its not about the money, its about been treated like an idiot. I feel like i have been disrespected by Newteks sales team. It seems that they took that class to write IBM's manuals. The one's that they fill up manuals with written pages but don't say much.

I work in the film/broadcast industry. I do not know what you do with LightWave, so I cannot say what improvements since 8.0 would help your projects.

Since 8.0, however, these specific improvements by the new team helped me greatly with my work:

HyperVoxels became 40x more memory efficient in 9.0, courtesy of Mark Granger. He also removed the artificial limit of 65,000 HyperVoxels, imposed by the old team.
LightWave 1.0-8.5 could not swap out massive amounts of geometry without hanging for anywhere from six minutes to six hours. In contrast, LightWave 9.0 churns through the most massive RealFlow object sequences with ease.
A longtime "tell" of LightWave renders was its stepped motion blur. LightWave 9.2 introduced Photoreal motion blur, eliminating this artifact. I am surprised that you do not use it.
The old team offered an incomplete SDK. Since 8.0 the new team has massively expanded the LightWave SDK. Cameras and lights are now plug-in classes. Third-party plugins like FPrime have greatly improved since 8.0, but this would not be possible without the increasing access granted with each build of LightWave. The SDK development broke a few third-party eggs along the way, but the increased access was worth the cost.
The 9.x Node Editor makes once-impossible surfacing and deformations possible.
The 9.2+ Material nodes come in handy when I need a photoreal surface in an instant. I once had to dress up the inside of a Space Shuttle's unsurfaced doors, and I had two minutes to do it. I applied Conductor, tweaked two settings and had photorealistic metal that worked for the shot.
9.x gives artists greater control over when subdivision takes place. This lets folks apply MDD-baked animations to an object, subdivide it, then apply additional deformations on top. At work, this lets us combine ZBrush displacements on top of characters with MDD-recorded animations.
9.x has better OpenGL performance than 8.5. This comes in handy when working with dense meshes for a shot.
9.6 offers multi-threaded mesh evaluation as an option, speeding up playback on scenes with deformations.
The Render Progress window in 9.x blows the doors off of the old Render Progress window. Thumbnail Review comes in especially handy when tracking render times during an F10 render.
I also use the Dave Ikeda 8.0+ additions to Modeler from time to time. Tools like "Dissolve" come in handy.


These additions have made my life easier at work. Other 9.6 artists like other aspects of the software. I know a character animator who loves the new Joint and IK options introduced in 9.5. Architects adore the radiosity and blurred reflection improvements. Car modelers dig the "Car Paint" node.

I'll put it to you this way...it would have been no big deal for me to downgrade from 7.5 to 6.5. Working in 7.5 doesn't feel that much different than 6.5. That's how little the software changed between 6.5 and 7.5.

I refuse to downgrade from 9.x to 8.5. Working in 8.5 is excruciatingly painful after working in 9.x. I couldn't give up the OpenGL, the Render Progress window, the multithreaded rendering efficiency, the new cameras, or the Node Editor.

That said...the old code's come as far as it can, and no further. I can't picture NewTek bolting a Python interpreter onto the old system. I can't see NewTek successfully supergluing Modeler.exe to Layout.exe. The new team took the coding equivalent of a 1990 Chevy, replaced the engine, reupholstered the seats, washed and cleaned and made it run as well as it possibly could, but it's always going to be a 1990 Chevy.

So, now that they've taken the old code as far as they can go with it, they're starting on fresh, new code. It should address all of the concerns listed in your last paragraph.

That said, wsantiago, you should not pre-order CORE. You're not interested in beta-testing, bug-reporting, or sculpting new software. Stick to your current plan: wait until CORE comes out, see if you need it, and only then pay the full price for an upgrade. If you need it for a job, CORE will pay for itself.

prospector
03-14-2009, 04:33 AM
but it's always going to be a 1990 Chevy.

A car anology :thumbsup::thumbsup:

I've gone back and counted at least 20 times where someone from Newtek has given very specific answers about Q1 thru Q4 and what IS and what MAY be expected.

wsantiago
03-14-2009, 05:46 AM
What? You lambast Newtek and try to whittle them down to a nub... and you come back and say you're a fan?

ROFLMAO

It's amazing you've been using LW for SO LONG and obviously think that Newtek just isn't delivering. Well... fine. MOVE TO XSI. PLEASE. Perhaps you can be a "fan" of Autodesk. :)

PS. And you're wasting your breath on frantbk - -he's complaining and he doesn't even have LW 9.x.

Im a fan not a blind cheerleading fool.

wsantiago
03-14-2009, 05:57 AM
That said, wsantiago, you should not pre-order CORE. You're not interested in beta-testing, bug-reporting, or sculpting new software. Stick to your current plan: wait until CORE comes out, see if you need it, and only then pay the full price for an upgrade. If you need it for a job, CORE will pay for itself.

I agree 100% with this.

kfinla
03-14-2009, 08:42 AM
So back to the thread topic, pricing. Its my understanding that its 395 (being a LW.9 owner) until March 31st..(this gets you core 1.0 whenever it is done q4 09, or q1 '10) April 1 the price increases to 495 until Core 1.0 is released. When Core 1.0 is released it is 695 to upgrade. Brand new LW users will pay 1495 for core 1.0 (I believe the competitive product upgrade goes until March 31 also). It is also my understanding that being a HC member means it is 395 to upgrade to Core 2.0 since I believe your guaranteed at least one release with each renewal. So 395 + 395 gets you to Core 2.0

Sekhar
03-14-2009, 09:41 AM
So back to the thread topic, pricing. Its my understanding that its 395 (being a LW.9 owner) until March 31st..(this gets you core 1.0 whenever it is done q4 09, or q1 '10) April 1 the price increases to 495 until Core 1.0 is released. When Core 1.0 is released it is 695 to upgrade. Brand new LW users will pay 1495 for core 1.0 (I believe the competitive product upgrade goes until March 31 also). It is also my understanding that being a HC member means it is 395 to upgrade to Core 2.0 since I believe your guaranteed at least one release with each renewal. So 395 + 395 gets you to Core 2.0

Yeah, but the big question for fence sitters is: what are the options if you want to skip CORE 1 and go direct to CORE 2 (hoping for a fuller app)? Can you join HC next year to get CORE 2? If yes, is it $395 or $495? Or is your only option to upgrade to perpetual CORE 2 when it's out in Q4-10? If so, is it $695 like now?

kfinla
03-14-2009, 09:52 AM
Yes those are my questions too. I'm a fence sitter as well. To go from Lw9 to Core 2.0 im guessing will be at least 695. I am assuming paying 695 for Core 1.0 does not get you into hardcore.. just Core 1.0 or whatever the current version is at purchase. 395 for HC 1.0 + 395 for HC 2.0 = 790.. the advantage is the payment is spread out. It depends when Core is useful to you. If Core isnt any use for your individual needs till 4.0, then it would be cheaper to just wait and buy a new copy. Ofcourse there is coming up with 4x the cash all at once, and the potential learning curve. Basically we don't know when core will be useful to each of us, that is the issue. I own modo (as do a lot of LW users).. and don't need a 2nd copy, which it sounds like Q1 will be.

frantbk
03-14-2009, 10:17 AM
I got news for you, Lightwave 10 or CORE probably won't be released until 2012 if we are lucky. Until then, you are going to get Betas if they ever get pass this Apha phase. So you and that very large number might as well stop been interested in lightwave.

Well aren't you a ray of sunshine -:lol: I assume you're talking about a full functioning Core Lightwave 10 in 2012. If not how would you justify 3 years of beta testing? The Core melt down gimmick has locked NT into a release sometime in the 4Q, or 1Q of 2010.


Those that make a living using lighwave, myself included, are stuck with 9.6 until CORE comes up to par so we have to keep talking about 9.6. Those that have lots of money and plenty of time to waste beta testing CORE can stop talking about 9.6 and care about where CORE is now and where is heading.

Nobody in the general public has seen a working alpha (except for the core melt down video). Don't you think you're jumping ahead of the curve a little?


And by the way Newtek didn't move on to CORE(LW 10) because they were concern about you and your large group losing interest in Lightwave. They move on to CORE probably prematurely because they need money. Hell they were atleast a year late delivering 9.0. Need and influx of quick money to continue development.

So you know this for a fact? Don't tell me you've been water-boarding some of NewTek's financial people to cheer you up -:lol: I believe that Core was release because of many factors - money, people posting their disinterest in the 9.x series. The heavy-hitters of the FX industry moving away from Lightwave 9.x except as a renderfarm and rendering unit within the pipeline.
I don't believe there is one answer to why NT went to Core - right now I only care about more information on Core's process, direction, and what is new and old tool sets that will be in Core. Not a whole lot to ask over the next 6-8 months. :D

Try and have a good weekend sunshine.

frantbk
03-14-2009, 10:24 AM
Im a fan not a blind cheerleading fool.

I don't think you have to be a cheerleading fool, but your far from a balanced view on what is capable from NT between now and the 4Q of 09. You know we are talking about 6-to-8 months of testing? Add to that 2-4 years of work already done on Core, your pessimistic view is too one-sided to be close to what will happen between the 4Q of 09 and the 1Q of 010.

frantbk
03-14-2009, 10:32 AM
if Newtek comes clean with us and cleans up this fiasco i would gladly donate $395 dollars even though I have no need nor do I want to Beta test. Its not about the money, its about been treated like an idiot. I feel like i have been disrespected by Newteks sales team. It seems that they took that class to write IBM's manuals. The one's that they fill up manuals with written pages but don't say much.

You make a good point about NT's handling of anyone that hasn't ponied up $395.00 for HardCore membership. I'm sure that NT will be surprised when the 4Q rolls around and not many, if anyone is really interested in Core by then. The question I have to ask is this: Does NT believe that denying people information for the next 6-to-8 months will build the marketing buzz response from people not involved in Core.

I'm under the impression that NT thinks that when Core is released everyone will be running to the NT site yelling "Its here! its finally here!" I don't think that will happen. I think the opposite will happen: "Well it's about time!"

frantbk
03-14-2009, 10:39 AM
Obviously you are a hell of a lot better than us at reading comprehension. Or maybe your heart is not as evil as your avatar claims because you read all the goodness of Newtek in between the lines.

Or he is a Core beta tester and HardCore member so he has information you and I don't.


What you read in the CORE page I beleive is call Business Writing. A course taught in universities to teach people how to write a lot without saying anything and some folks are more than satisfy with the volumes of info been written. After all everywhere you click there is plenty of info. However, if you closely analyze this info you will realize that the same info is been repeated. Is like lawyers asking you the same question 20 different ways. In the end there is not much info there. Certainly not enough for a business to make a rational decision. I believe that Newtek intended this to be exactly what it is, they are charging you money for you to beta test for them. In exchange, they are giving you a break in the price. And again if they would have said this from the beginning I would have no problems parting with my money. It's just the sneaky and extreamly silent way that they have gone about it.

You've made a good point, currently the info is too general to be believable from a business point of view, nor does it set any bounders of expectation of what the final product will be. NewTek, like other software companies, has the tendency to put long-term tool set, tool sets that will not be incorporated into the product for several years in the marketing buzz sheets.

I can see your point, but what does it matter? NewTek will just say to you: "Sorry you don't like it, but we have the other members to think of."

frantbk
03-14-2009, 10:42 AM
So back to the thread topic, pricing. Its my understanding that its 395 (being a LW.9 owner) until March 31st..(this gets you core 1.0 whenever it is done q4 09, or q1 '10) April 1 the price increases to 495 until Core 1.0 is released. When Core 1.0 is released it is 695 to upgrade. Brand new LW users will pay 1495 for core 1.0 (I believe the competitive product upgrade goes until March 31 also). It is also my understanding that being a HC member means it is 395 to upgrade to Core 2.0 since I believe your guaranteed at least one release with each renewal. So 395 + 395 gets you to Core 2.0

I thought is said "that once in at $395.00 that price would not change for that member. I'm assuming that is as long as you stayed in the membership from day one. If you opt-out over the years you would lose that special discount.

I could be wrong about this tho. ;D

frantbk
03-14-2009, 10:48 AM
Yeah, but the big question for fence sitters is: what are the options if you want to skip CORE 1 and go direct to CORE 2 (hoping for a fuller app)? Can you join HC next year to get CORE 2? If yes, is it $395 or $495? Or is your only option to upgrade to perpetual CORE 2 when it's out in Q4-10? If so, is it $695 like now?

I read it like this. Skip the current Core 1.0 release. At, or during the beta testing of Core 2.0 it would cost a current 9.x user the $495.00/695.00 price (which ever it is at that point in time). New users would have to spend $1495.00 for Core. This would probably give them a version of Core 1.0 until the release of Core 2.0 and make them a HardCore member until the next annual fee. Which would then be the $495.00/695.00 price.

That is the way I read the membership info. I'm just like the rest of you, I don't really know. ;D

frantbk
03-14-2009, 10:53 AM
Yes those are my questions too. I'm a fence sitter as well. To go from Lw9 to Core 2.0 im guessing will be at least 695. I am assuming paying 695 for Core 1.0 does not get you into hardcore.. just Core 1.0 or whatever the current version is at purchase. 395 for HC 1.0 + 395 for HC 2.0 = 790.. the advantage is the payment is spread out. It depends when Core is useful to you. If Core isnt any use for your individual needs till 4.0, then it would be cheaper to just wait and buy a new copy. Ofcourse there is coming up with 4x the cash all at once, and the potential learning curve. Basically we don't know when core will be useful to each of us, that is the issue. I own modo (as do a lot of LW users).. and don't need a 2nd copy, which it sounds like Q1 will be.

NewTek will have to have a discovery edition of Core out one month after the release of Core. Otherwise how will many of the fence sitters know what Core is, and if it will work for them - videos? hardly only the inexperience 3D newbies buy $1495.00 off of videos.

wsantiago
03-14-2009, 10:09 PM
I don't think you have to be a cheerleading fool, but your far from a balanced view on what is capable from NT between now and the 4Q of 09. You know we are talking about 6-to-8 months of testing? Add to that 2-4 years of work already done on Core, your pessimistic view is too one-sided to be close to what will happen between the 4Q of 09 and the 1Q of 010.

Well lets see, By their own admittance CORE 1(Q4 2009) will concentrate on modeler.

CORE 2(Q4 2010) will concentrate fixing the bugs introduce in CORE 1 add
more tools to modeler cause surely you don't think that they are going to finish modeler in 8 months. They might throw you a layout bone to keep you happy. I know their is no layout or modeler is all one application. But if you choose you can continue to work in lightwave as 2 separate applications.

CORE 3(Q4 2011) Fix bugs introduce in CORE 2. Modeler side of CORE is finally up to par and maybe beginning to exceed 9.6. This tools(assuming where thought out and implemented correctly) are amazing and they are almost ready to be incorporated with layout.

CORE 4(Q4 2012) It all starts to come together. A complete all in 1 application or seperate if you like, it all up to you.

Of course they could do a little at a time and making sure everything works together or separately as they go along but it is still going to take time. Now during this time does anyone think that other applications are going to be standing still waiting for CORE to catch up.

I hope that CORE 1 comes out of the gate running. A fully implemented ready and capable application. But the cheerleaders in this forum have said over and over not to expect much in the beginning and since NEWTEK is tight lip I have to agree with them.

In the end I hope that they take their time and implement everything correctly and document everything fully. I hope that they don't throw in something that is not fully implemented just for the sake of luring in more buyers and if they do that they stick with it until it is fully functional and all the bugs are out of them. This has always been my beef with Newtek until now.

And for you communists cheerleaders, you can't just tell everyone that disagrees with you to get out, go find another application. You keep that up and there is only going to be the 25 left. How will you support Newtek then. Lets hope lightwave doesn't go the way of LightWave Rendition. I paid my $99 dollars early admit ticket to that show. Does anyone have info on that. It seems that the new policy at NEWTEK is keep quit and they will stop asking.

Well this has been an interesting couple of days in this forums but I have to get back to work. See you again next year to see where we are at.

wsantiago
03-14-2009, 10:14 PM
P.S.

Yes cheerleaders, you are free to attack, I won't reply anymore.

Celshader
03-14-2009, 10:18 PM
Hm. In the interests of full disclosure...

...I did pre-order CORE 1.0 at the $300 discount weeks ago. I have to keep on top of these things as a technical director, so I might as well do it cheap.

:thumbsup:

frantbk
03-15-2009, 08:24 AM
Well lets see, By their own admittance CORE 1(Q4 2009) will concentrate on modeler.

Jay Roth said they were concentrating on modeler because 9.6 concentrated on layout. Roth didn't say Core would only be a modeler. Jay Roth stated that they didn't work on modeler in 9.6 because of the switch to Core. Jay Roth also said they would be showing lighting, render, and animation videos later. Jay Roth didn't say when they would show these videos. NewTek could show them the day before Core's release.


CORE 2(Q4 2010) will concentrate fixing the bugs introduce in CORE 1 add
more tools to modeler cause surely you don't think that they are going to finish modeler in 8 months. They might throw you a layout bone to keep you happy. I know their is no layout or modeler is all one application. But if you choose you can continue to work in lightwave as 2 separate applications.

Before I will buy into this. I have to know what tools you're talking about? New tools, old tools. Jay Roth did say all of the tools you know will be in Core, they may be in a different place. Bug fixing is a way of life in software - how many bugs are in Maya, Max, and Softimage? Are all of those fixed? :stumped:


CORE 3(Q4 2011) Fix bugs introduce in CORE 2. Modeler side of CORE is finally up to par and maybe beginning to exceed 9.6. This tools(assuming where thought out and implemented correctly) are amazing and they are almost ready to be incorporated with layout.

Which brings up the registry. Can most of the Core modeling tools be un-registered so third-party tools can be put in there place? Once again bug fixes are a part of life. Just because you & I don't think a tool works doesn't mean that the engineer can't make it work right. The question about tools not working right is a question of training, or bad implementation by the engineer. Which is open to debate if it is a question of training.


CORE 4(Q4 2012) It all starts to come together. A complete all in 1 application or seperate if you like, it all up to you.

Which brings up the question of when will the "full access SDK" be released by NT? If they follow other companies the SDK will not be released with Core 1.0, or 2.0. If that happens than Core could quickly become a bust-of-buy. One of the marketing point in the video is the ability for some to leverage Core with the SDK. NewTek needs that SDK to be launched with Core 1.0. If NT fails at that, than who cares about Core. Houdini like power? what good will that if you can't build on that power base.


Of course they could do a little at a time and making sure everything works together or separately as they go along but it is still going to take time. Now during this time does anyone think that other applications are going to be standing still waiting for CORE to catch up.[quote]

You make it sound like NT Core development team is made up of two guys and maybe a high school apprentice.

[quote]I hope that CORE 1 comes out of the gate running. A fully implemented ready and capable application. But the cheerleaders in this forum have said over and over not to expect much in the beginning and since NEWTEK is tight lip I have to agree with them.

That depends on how much of 9.6 was built to transfer to Core. Two-to-three years and NT hasn't thought about moving all of 9.6 layout to Core. Come on, NT's development team is smarter than that.


In the end I hope that they take their time and implement everything correctly and document everything fully. I hope that they don't throw in something that is not fully implemented just for the sake of luring in more buyers and if they do that they stick with it until it is fully functional and all the bugs are out of them. This has always been my beef with Newtek until now.

which means that a demo kit is a requirement when Core is released, and not 3 months later after the buzz is gone.


And for you communists cheerleaders, you can't just tell everyone that disagrees with you to get out, go find another application. You keep that up and there is only going to be the 25 left. How will you support Newtek then. Lets hope lightwave doesn't go the way of LightWave Rendition. I paid my $99 dollars early admit ticket to that show. Does anyone have info on that. It seems that the new policy at NEWTEK is keep quit and they will stop asking.

No news is not good news with Core and the general public.


Well this has been an interesting couple of days in this forums but I have to get back to work. See you again next year to see where we are at.

Are you sure its not four years from now? Your roadmap of Core isn't very pretty.

hrgiger
03-15-2009, 08:28 AM
Are you sure its not four years from now? Your roadmap of Core isn't very pretty.

That's just because he doesn't know what he is talking about.

frantbk
03-15-2009, 10:28 AM
That's just because he doesn't know what he is talking about.

I think you are right. I also think that he is so down right now he can't see anything but dank, dreary days ahead. He needs to tap into some sunshine and find a balance about Core.

Stjepanovic
04-03-2009, 07:13 PM
If predictions of the Dr. doom or kurias turn out to be truth, it would be a true disaster to completing a functional Core or LW 10 by the 2012. It's simply ridiculous to wait that long. Anyhow $1495 as a new price is ridiculous especially in the light of the past 6 years of development in the 3D market. If anything from the marketing point of view NT should behave according to the old tenet - speak softly and carry a big stick. This stick should also be fully functioning - no FPriming, Sasquetching, CADing it etc. It would also be ridiculous especially if they intend to raise the price. I think LW has an edge now, not technologically speaking. However, if things do not pan out in the most 2 years they will loose out heavily and fall behind forever. Support and affordability of the package that does job is the NT strongest point for a small business or a freelance artist. Once they come back and they do come back big in real terms, not on the marketing hype I think NT mgmt. can play with prices. Otherwise in case of release setbacks & issues, it would spell disaster

frantbk
04-03-2009, 07:40 PM
If predictions of the Dr. doom or kurias turn out to be truth, it would be a true disaster to completing a functional Core or LW 10 by the 2012.

I don't think this will happen. The render was removed from 9.x several years ago. Several products have Core code in them. NewTek has been working on Core for 2 years.


It's simply ridiculous to wait that long. Anyhow $1495 as a new price is ridiculous especially in the light of the past 6 years of development in the 3D market. If anything from the marketing point of view NT should behave according to the old tenet - speak softly and carry a big stick. This stick should also be fully functioning - no FPriming, Sasquetching, CADing it etc. It would also be ridiculous especially if they intend to raise the price.

While I agree that the new price for Lightwave Core is a big question mark. Tying all sales of Lightwave Core into HardCore membership might not be the best idea. I like the looks of Core, but I don't like the HardCore membership being force on me as part of purchasing Lightwave Core. NewTek should think of a package deal that doesn't require HardCore membership, but still has the upgrade to the next version of Lightwave Core.


I think LW has an edge now, not technologically speaking. However, if things do not pan out in the most 2 years they will loose out heavily and fall behind forever.

Technologically speaking, I think NewTek does have an edge if they release the SDK package in the 4Q. I think Qt could gives NT an edge on user acceptance because users can turn the UI into almost any system UI that the end-user is comfortable with. So the expandability of Lightwave Core can draw in users that would not like/accept Lightwave Core because of the company UI.


Support and affordability of the package that does job is the NT strongest point for a small business or a freelance artist. Once they come back and they do come back big in real terms, not on the marketing hype I think NT mgmt. can play with prices. Otherwise in case of release setbacks & issues, it would spell disaster

The only disaster I see is if NweTek delivers a short product. Selling Lightwave Core to new customers as a stand alone product means that Lightwave Core will have to be a full package application upon release. Whatever this talk is about using 9.6 in conjunction with Lightwave Core doesn't make any sense. This would mean that 9.6 would have to be bundled with Lightwave Core in the 4Q release. If that is the case then Lightwave Core would be a short product, but that doesn't look to be NT's intent to date.