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cresshead
02-27-2009, 06:39 PM
doodled this up tonight just to see 'where' ligtwave core sits pricewise amongst it's competition.

1cm per dollar!

yeah ter's no blender as it's "0" dollars and no houdini as it's 8K and would make everything else waaay too small!:D

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70376&d=1235795468

JeffrySG
02-27-2009, 07:05 PM
Pretty cool!

IMI
02-27-2009, 07:12 PM
Love it!

TeZzy
02-27-2009, 07:26 PM
hehe cool, where's mudbox? I am only asking since Zbrush is included

cresshead
02-27-2009, 08:09 PM
updated>>re mudbox..well yeah there's a few missing...i'll make a 'sculpting app price comnparison next up.

IMI
02-27-2009, 08:17 PM
I think your new version you edited in looks much better. :)

cresshead
02-27-2009, 08:46 PM
added mudbox and blender

wacom
02-27-2009, 08:51 PM
You need to put 3DC in there...and softimage Adv.

Thanks for the visuals!

cresshead
02-27-2009, 08:56 PM
You need to put 3DC in there...and softimage Adv.

Thanks for the visuals!

i think it's crowded enough for today!!!...i'm wanting to watch invaders on dvd ya know!!!:D


also 3d coat what's the proper base price once 3 is out?
can't find the price onf soft advance...??

just searched for softimage advanced...can't nail down a price.....

found it...$4695

updatitng the graph....

kfinla
02-27-2009, 09:06 PM
3d coat will be priced 200$ at version 3.0.. that will only be for the first 30 days after it comes out thought. No word on what the final price will be.

It also kinda looks like Softimage 7.5 "advanced" is being phased out.. in that there are very few differences from Essentials (which does not exist now, its just Autodesk Softimage).. advanced gets you; 5 render nodes, some render farm creation utility, and a crowd simulator)

cresshead
02-27-2009, 09:33 PM
added softimage advanced...

will be interesting to see if this changes much during the resession were just about to start properly..see if prices come down come feb 2010 or not...

as for software not listed..well there's quite a few such as 3dcoat form z rhino, sketchup....etc etc..can't do 'em all !

interesting that no app occupies the same price...except lightwave and modo!

cresshead
02-27-2009, 10:23 PM
just to make myself unhappy...converted the u.k. pricing we actrually PAY to usa dollars for maya and 3dsmax....ho hum...rip off britain at work again!

:D

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70384&d=1235798631



ouch!:twak:

jin choung
02-27-2009, 10:40 PM
very nice! but since blender gets a flat square, you should have houdini go off the chart! then it would be complete.

although since you have modelers only, you might want to have rhino, moi, and that other modeler... dang forgot its name... ummmm... it sounds like hexagon? but not that... something else... it has nurbs and subds and... dang... forgot... and maybe realsoft3d and that japanese app (forgot its name)....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

actually, what would be REALLY telling and probably most beneficial for newtek is a COST OF OWNERSHIP PER YEAR chart... lw would be waaaaaay at the bottom pre core.

jin

p.s. really excellent choice of vantage point and composition... they should put this up in 3d magazine or something for one of their comparison issues.

cresshead
02-27-2009, 11:02 PM
let's make jin happy!!!

>> big graph!

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70386&d=1235800923

dwburman
02-27-2009, 11:46 PM
Are you sure the Maya price is correct?

MacMall.com and CDW.com have Maya Complete at $3k and Ultimate at $7k-$8k

There are so many different prices listed it's kind of hard to follow.

jin choung
02-27-2009, 11:51 PM
let's make jin happy!!!

>> big graph!

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70386&d=1235800923

haha....

thanks cress... actually, i just meant you could shoot it off the screen....

but very cool... wow... visually, it looks a LOT MORE EXPENSIVE!

jin

DiedonD
02-28-2009, 12:48 AM
Ok, so Houdini is the most priciest 3D App out there!

Anyone care to tell why?

cresshead
02-28-2009, 12:50 AM
sub $2000 focus with more apps listed:)

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70390&d=1235807932

Philbert
02-28-2009, 01:14 AM
That one with Houdini Master is hilarious. If you had another full render with the extra programs in there (and 3D Coat) I'd gladly post it to Digg. Are the colors for the text at the bottom supposed to represent something?

cresshead
02-28-2009, 01:25 AM
the lot!

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70391&d=1235809542

DiedonD
02-28-2009, 01:29 AM
Yeah but what makes Houdini think that theyre that good?

cresshead
02-28-2009, 01:35 AM
HoudiniHD ?

feel free to make your own charts!...there's literally over a hundered 3d apps....:hey:

and ALL listed can be used commercially...houdini HD cannot.

DiedonD
02-28-2009, 01:37 AM
HoudiniHD ?

No Houdini Master, the one with the top price of 8000$

It cant be the ONLY app that renders in HD?!

cresshead
02-28-2009, 01:37 AM
Yeah but what makes Houdini think that theyre that good?

more than that, what on earth makes cinema 4d studio better than 3dsmax 2010??? or maya complete!!!...or xsi essentials!!!:D

DiedonD
02-28-2009, 01:41 AM
more than that, what on earth makes cinema 4d studio better than 3dsmax 2010??? or maya complete!!!...or xsi essentials!!!:D

Still though, Houdini at 8000! Double the money of almost all best known apps out there! What makes them think they can just put such heavy numbers out there? Are they capturing any customers with that?

DiedonD
02-28-2009, 01:45 AM
Could you send me this image Cress? Just for my personal use. You still have my e-mail do you?

cresshead
02-28-2009, 01:55 AM
Could you send me this image Cress? Just for my personal use. You still have my e-mail do you?

you mean the model or the image?.. just rh click save as fopr thre image

for the scene...you'll need>>:devil:<<, 3dsmax...i used my 3dsmax on this
as there's loads of text and with modifier stack you can simply re type text and the extrude updates live...and the boxes for the chart you simply type in a new height for the new chamfered box...your going to love lightwave core..it's all about modifiers and nodes...make life on such scenes so much simpler!

cresshead
02-28-2009, 01:59 AM
No Houdini Master, the one with the top price of 8000$

It cant be the ONLY app that renders in HD?!

hey houdini is well cheap NOW...it used to cost 17,500...that's $24,981
..so loads cheaper now!

and maya 1.0 was 28,000 which nowdays would cost $39,000:D

we're living in the GOOD times!:D

cresshead
02-28-2009, 02:21 AM
That one with Houdini Master is hilarious. If you had another full render with the extra programs in there (and 3D Coat) I'd gladly post it to Digg. Are the colors for the text at the bottom supposed to represent something?


yellow text is for free apps
blue is generic
other colors are for apps i either own or am thinking about one day getting...

i own> lightwave, lightwave core, 3dsmax, zbrush
thinking about> maya, mudbox

DiedonD
02-28-2009, 02:26 AM
you mean the model or the image?.. just rh click save as fopr thre image

for the scene...you'll need>>:devil:<<, 3dsmax...i used my 3dsmax on this
as there's loads of text and with modifier stack you can simply re type text and the extrude updates live...and the boxes for the chart you simply type in a new height for the new chamfered box...your going to love lightwave core..it's all about modifiers and nodes...make life on such scenes so much simpler!


Oh great, downloaded, thanks alot :thumbsup:

I needed the image alone, not the model, cause I know you may send 'fishy' models! Though you could send it as an .obj couldnt you? :D

And its not that I cant open my severly PIRATED version of any 3D Max ranging from here to the first ever series with the bold guy posing in the firy background days! But I didnt want to go through: unburning, puttting microscopic pieces back together, unshreding the paper image cover, and unmelting the plastic cover, in order to see what you did!

Cause theres alota work there you see :D

Philbert
02-28-2009, 03:35 AM
http://digg.com/software/3D_application_pricing_chart

cresshead
02-28-2009, 03:45 AM
http://digg.com/software/3D_application_pricing_chart



:thumbsup:

dugg:lol:

MrWyatt
02-28-2009, 04:20 AM
Still though, Houdini at 8000! Double the money of almost all best known apps out there! What makes them think they can just put such heavy numbers out there? Are they capturing any customers with that?

it is always a question of How many studios use it and how many licenses do they need?
the more you sell the cheaper you can make your product. the less people buy it the more expensive you have to sell it to be able to stay in business. They have dropped their price drastically though. it used to be 17.000 $ I think.
on a side note although Houdini is "hard to learn" and is considered "not artist friendly" it is most likely the most powerful of all the apps in that list. if you can think of something you wouldn't even attempt to do in any other app, because it is simply impossible to pull it of, there is a good chance that houdini can do it.
So although I can only afford the Apprentice HD version of it, I don't think it is overpriced.

flakester
02-28-2009, 04:34 AM
Nice job Cress.

Having the major players listed in the same visual space really puts a perspective on things.

There's a lot to be said for NTs pricing model! :thumbsup:

--
flakester.

kfiram
02-28-2009, 12:20 PM
Hey, you forgot Autodesk (previously Softimage) FaceRobot Designer ($94,995 USMSRP) and FaceRobot Animator ($14,995 USMSRP).

Take that, Houdini!

IMI
02-28-2009, 12:57 PM
Hey, you forgot Autodesk (previously Softimage) FaceRobot Designer ($94,995 USMSRP) and FaceRobot Animator ($14,995 USMSRP).

Take that, Houdini!

I don't think we'd be able to read the text for how far out he'd have to zoom out for adding those. ;)


***********
Hey Steve, you spelled Electric Image wrong on the bar (not the floor plane). "Eleectric Image". ;)

Andyjaggy
02-28-2009, 01:07 PM
Add Vue please. :)

pming
02-28-2009, 01:32 PM
Hiya.

For Houdini Master, a measly $6000 more than Escape, you get:

(*) Particles
(*) Dynamics
...
... uh...
...

Yeah, hmmm. :confused:

I guess their Particles and Dynamics are several hundred times better and faster than anyone else's...?

When I was shopping for a new 3d package (I refused to pay the upgrade to XSI 7 once I heard Autodesk bought them...I've been an XSI user since it was Softimage|3D v3.0). Houdini was on my 'serious choice' list for the longest time...but I just could NOT get over the lack of particles. Dynamics, fine, I can live without, but particles?!? What the halibut are they smoking over there in SideFX land? :screwy:

So, it came down to Lightwave or Cinema4D. And I was NOT keen on C4D's "price scheme" for updates and whatnot. So, here I am, Lightwave virgin, ready for abuse! :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

lwanmtr
02-28-2009, 03:31 PM
Maya Unlimited is $6495

Silkrooster
02-28-2009, 05:32 PM
Cresshead,
I passed the digg link onto a few forums(Spinquad, Daz, Spiral Graphics). One of the replies was:


Forgot Massive which i think is retailing around 17,000$

by Sethren @ Spiral graphics forums

cresshead
02-28-2009, 06:13 PM
Maya Unlimited is $6495

wrong>see here>>

Windows/Mac/Linux without Subscription Boxed Shipment - $4,995.00

http://store.autodesk.com/DRHM/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&SiteID=adsk&Locale=en_US&ThemeID=516200&Env=BASE&productID=111080200

cresshead
02-28-2009, 06:15 PM
Cresshead,
I passed the digg link onto a few forums(Spinquad, Daz, Spiral Graphics). One of the replies was:



by Sethren @ Spiral graphics forums

i didn't forget it, it's not a full 3d app, it's a crowd sim...you may as well ask for flood or a compositor or face robot....:D

cresshead
02-28-2009, 06:16 PM
Add Vue please. :)

i'll quote one of Jin's replies>>

"no"...

:D

Titus
02-28-2009, 06:45 PM
Cress, you forgot Houdini Starving artist edition for $99

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1002&Itemid=66

Silkrooster
02-28-2009, 06:54 PM
i didn't forget it, it's not a full 3d app, it's a crowd sim...you may as well ask for flood or a compositor or face robot....:D

OK, I never heard of it, which is why I just passed it along. I'll let him know.

Captain Obvious
02-28-2009, 07:02 PM
Ok, so Houdini is the most priciest 3D App out there!

Anyone care to tell why?
Because it's the best one! :D



Hiya.

For Houdini Master, a measly $6000 more than Escape, you get:

(*) Particles
(*) Dynamics
...
... uh...
...

Yeah, hmmm. :confused:

I guess their Particles and Dynamics are several hundred times better and faster than anyone else's...?
It's not that Houdini's dynamics and particle systems are better than everybody else's it's that the ability to tie very solid dynamics and particles systems into the workflow of Houdini is a very powerful thing indeed. Houdini Master is $8000, yet it still finds buyers. Not a lot of them, but enough for them to be able to charge such an amount. There are studios who would rather pay the extra for Houdini, rather than using Maya or XSI or what have you. Besides, an extra $3000-4000 isn't that much in the big scheme of things.





Cress, you forgot Houdini Starving artist edition for $99

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1002&Itemid=66
That's only noncommercial, though. All the other apps can be used commercially.

LazyCoder
02-28-2009, 07:03 PM
What about match moving software?

Syntheyes - $400
Boujou - $8500

And what about realflow? ($4000)

Philbert
02-28-2009, 07:20 PM
What about match moving software?

Syntheyes - $400
Boujou - $8500

And what about realflow? ($4000)

Just like Massive, those are not full 3D packages.

Edit: Actually I'm just repeating what Cress said above. But to be fair Modo, Mudbox, ZBrush, Sketchup, Poser and some others are not actually "full" 3D apps either. But Boujou or Massive aren't even modelers.

Captain Obvious
02-28-2009, 07:26 PM
modo 401 has animation features, though. I guess it's technically a full 3D package, even though I don't think many people will use it as a full studio app.

Philbert
02-28-2009, 07:30 PM
Oh OK, I haven't touched Modo nearly since it was released.

aidenvfx
02-28-2009, 07:41 PM
Is mudbox, Modo, or Zbrush full 3 D apps?

For animation Can modo do more then some basic turntable moves?

Silkrooster
02-28-2009, 07:45 PM
Is Rhino model only? assuming its still around that is...

jasonwestmas
02-28-2009, 07:52 PM
Cress, you forgot Houdini Starving artist edition for $99

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1002&Itemid=66

Nice path for hobbyists and learning! Of course you know it can't be used for commercial purposes though.

jasonwestmas
02-28-2009, 07:54 PM
Is mudbox, Modo, or Zbrush full 3 D apps?

For animation Can modo do more then some basic turntable moves?

Using that logic, LW isn't a full 3D app. either since it doesn't have much for image editing, UV texture creation or high resolution sculpting.

Captain Obvious
02-28-2009, 08:02 PM
Is mudbox, Modo, or Zbrush full 3 D apps?

For animation Can modo do more then some basic turntable moves?
302 has full keyframe animation. Basically, anything that's got a channel can be animated. However, it does not have deforming animations (ie, no bones).

Philbert
02-28-2009, 08:23 PM
Is Rhino model only? assuming its still around that is...

Rhino is just modeling, but looks like it has a bunch of commercial plugins that handle rendering, animation, etc. Looks like it's still around:
http://www.rhino3d.com/

cresshead
02-28-2009, 08:30 PM
seems i've caused a bit of a stir with this over on cgtalk!...

obviously some have had a nerve tugged with the chart for some weird reasons..

as for apps included/not included...it'smy chart and have my fav list on there and cut on stuff i don;t think is worth the effort on copying a chamfered box on!...

zbrush models and renders
mudbox models and can outpout a great looking view

then i added some not quite full on stuff like silo, hexagon, messiah as you could use a couple of those to make a full 3d solution and many already do with say silo and messiah studio as an example.

cresshead
02-28-2009, 08:43 PM
double post...opps!

however...i might do a 2d app chart next!

here's my list>>

2D:

pixel based still>>
photoshop cs4
photoshop cs4 extended
photoshop elements
painter 11
painter essentials
art rage pro
sketchbook pro
g.i.m.p

pixrel based 2d animation>>
tv paint
tv paint pro
flipbook
flipbook pro

vector based still image>>
illustrator
corel draw


vector based animated
flash cs4
after effects cs4
after effects pro cs4
anime pro
toon boom studio
toon boom animate
toon boom digital pro
toon boom harmony
autodesk combustion
p.a.p.

more?...[links please!]

Silkrooster
02-28-2009, 09:31 PM
Paint shop pro from Corel.
Corel Designer

Titus
02-28-2009, 09:42 PM
That's only noncommercial, though. All the other apps can be used commercially.

That's a strange criteria, since your post is titled "3d app price chart", and Houdini HD is not for commercial use but I can make an Oscar winning short with it (if I have the talent, of course). I'm not going to moan like in the other forum :D.

Phil
02-28-2009, 09:42 PM
inkscape
vectordesigner (mac)

pixelmator (mac)
chocoflop (mac)
artrage

shake
nuke
Final cut pro / express

PFTrack/PFHoe
Boujou
SynthEyes

Silkrooster
02-28-2009, 10:13 PM
Eyeon's fusion

Do you want to list NLE's?

cresshead
02-28-2009, 10:54 PM
Eyeon's fusion

Do you want to list NLE's?

i think i'll leave that for someone else!

i might do video editors though on day..
newtek speed edit
adobe premiere
final cut express
final cut pro
sony
avid software...

dobermunk
03-01-2009, 05:36 AM
Art Rage (was that mentioned?)
2D still

Kuzey
03-01-2009, 05:37 AM
seems i've caused a bit of a stir with this over on cgtalk!...

obviously some have had a nerve tugged with the chart for some weird reasons..



I just read that thread and boy, that was tooooooo funny :thumbsup:

Cool chart and that goes for your responses in that thread as well!

Kuzey

lwanmtr
03-01-2009, 05:47 AM
wrong>see here>>

Windows/Mac/Linux without Subscription Boxed Shipment - $4,995.00

http://store.autodesk.com/DRHM/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&SiteID=adsk&Locale=en_US&ThemeID=516200&Env=BASE&productID=111080200

Look at the top line again...$6495 :)

Earl
03-01-2009, 09:39 AM
Ha! Did anyone notice that it was the moderators over at CGTalk that caused all the problems in the thread over there? I mean, Srek actually works for Maxon, and no one questions why he has a problem with the graph. And it didn't take long for Leigh to stumble around into that thread to exercise her power-hungry-happy-thread-closing mouse.

Sorry for any offense Roberto, but I really can't stand that place due to the three moderators that posted in that exact thead! You and Shade are the only good apples of that bunch.

IMI
03-01-2009, 01:05 PM
Ha! Did anyone notice that it was the moderators over at CGTalk that caused all the problems in the thread over there? I mean, Srek actually works for Maxon, and no one questions why he has a problem with the graph. And it didn't take long for Leigh to stumble around into that thread to exercise her power-hungry-happy-thread-closing mouse.



"Epic fail" as she stated. :rolleyes:
So that's her way of saying a mere user got the better of her moderator? I would hardly call it "epic fail". It was going nowhere for her moderator, maybe, but it would seem a thread with that much useful information in it would be anything but a failure.

That thread is just so... classic CGTalk, in that it captures the essence of the site perfectly in very few pages. You could use that thread alone to describe the whole attitude there to someone who wants to know what the place is like.

Seems like half the people there are seriously in need of chilling out.

kfinla
03-01-2009, 01:34 PM
Silly stuff. The chart is fine. The problem is people have this overwhelming need to justify their purchase decisions. As if your chart is saying, you got ripped off buddy, though it makes no such statement. Silly.

realgray
03-01-2009, 02:01 PM
I love this chart, since I assume many of us are visual people it really helps us to clarify where the differing software stands. I think it would be cool to see a chart of just compositors to go along with the 3d chart since so many of us use a compositor to improve our 3d. After Effects, Nuke, Shake, Fusion, Flame and any others. Is the cgsociety thread still available?

IMI
03-01-2009, 02:15 PM
I think the chart is great too.
When I first saw it I didn't read anything at all into it, didn't really even consider it as a chart - it just looks nice. Artistic, cool, a purty picture done well. :D

Nope, that thread is locked. Seems that the Power That Be over there can't handle seeing her mods being made to look like raging a**hats.

Either that or such conversation hurts the chances of Autodesk finally closing the deal and buying CG Society. ;)

*Pete*
03-01-2009, 03:18 PM
I would love to have some of the critics from CGTalk as my customers...price means quality for them, so the more i ask, the more they will like my products.

lwanmtr
03-01-2009, 03:33 PM
I would love to have some of the critics from CGTalk as my customers...price means quality for them, so the more i ask, the more they will like my products.

LOL...yeah, Id be set for life.

I just read the thread over there....and I thought people got off topic fast over here...geez, its a price chart.

Cress, your job now is to make an animated chart that will track 3D software prices from 1980-present :D

Silkrooster
03-01-2009, 03:43 PM
Sounds funny. I guess I'll have to read it. It's been a few years since I checked out CGtalk.

lwanmtr
03-01-2009, 03:52 PM
Its funny..over at cgtalk, in the app specific and other help forums people are generally pretty good...but in the general forums they seem to like *****in' hehe.

lwanmtr
03-01-2009, 03:57 PM
And show how well they implement their workflow and all of the features andbreakdown of cost per feature and.... 8~

As has been said... it's JUST a price chart! Sheesh!! (A good one of course.)

Dont forget memory usage for each app...lol

zapper1998
03-01-2009, 04:50 PM
like wow....

dwburman
03-01-2009, 05:14 PM
It'd be cool to see a chart comparing upgrade and subscription costs. :D

UnCommonGrafx
03-01-2009, 07:36 PM
Wow!
Those Three are the ones that have made a point to sh1t upon anyone even mentioning lw in a positive manner. Or so it often seems.

Moderators that come in to piss in your thread in order to get it closed. Shameful. No wonder I don't visit there any more. CGTalk... The stooges forum of lw hate... it felt like...

p.s. Cresshead, nice chart. What was the hubbub over there...read the thread but wow...

cresshead
03-01-2009, 08:04 PM
very sad that cgtalk doesn't allow for facts and truth unless it suits their sponsors.

leigh ended the thread...

Kryos
03-01-2009, 08:38 PM
And I always knew there was a reason that I never messed with cgsociety.

*Pete*
03-01-2009, 08:45 PM
and next time....post it in the ART section.


you know... art IS provocative so its supposed to be a success when discussions arise over its content and hidden meanings :D

SplineGod
03-01-2009, 08:52 PM
Wow!
Those Three are the ones that have made a point to sh1t upon anyone even mentioning lw in a positive manner. Or so it often seems.

Moderators that come in to piss in your thread in order to get it closed. Shameful. No wonder I don't visit there any more. CGTalk... The stooges forum of lw hate... it felt like...

p.s. Cresshead, nice chart. What was the hubbub over there...read the thread but wow...


Leigh is the high priestess of hating LW there and she has set the tone that the moderators follow. Many other LWavers no longer go there either and the LW forum is barely tolerated.
Peoples time would be better spent supporting sites that actually support their software of choice.

geo_n
03-01-2009, 08:55 PM
Still though, Houdini at 8000! Double the money of almost all best known apps out there! What makes them think they can just put such heavy numbers out there? Are they capturing any customers with that?

They are used in film so they can charge big bucks.
The latest issue of cgworld japan lists down the top vfx films last year and taking top ranks were maya,xsi,max and houdini.
xsi is really so popular here especially in games. metal gear and winning eleven have a making of in previous cgworld issue.
autodesk buying xsi seems to have no effect in studios.

cresshead
03-01-2009, 10:04 PM
Leigh is the high priestess of hating LW there and she has set the tone that the moderators follow. Many other LWavers no longer go there either and the LW forum is barely tolerated.
Peoples time would be better spent supporting sites that actually support their software of choice.


yeah appears a quite negative/bitter place of late...the news area is ususally okay

it's a commercial sponsored website so they try n keep their sponsors happy at the expense of freedom of speech..even a price chart gives them the jitters...very sad.

still the thread is there and not deleted...it will now scroll off the page as it's locked though,..

Silkrooster
03-01-2009, 10:17 PM
The way that thread went down hill didn't even make sense.

realgray
03-01-2009, 10:19 PM
Could you post the link to the thread, I would like to read it

Never mind, found it

IMI
03-01-2009, 10:38 PM
For anyone else interested, it's here:

Cresshead Creates Controversy at CG Talk (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=735638&page=1&pp=15)

BigHache
03-01-2009, 10:39 PM
Nice chart.

I'm a bit at a loss for why exactly that thread was closed. It's not like anyone's life was threatened. I'm not familiar with Leigh but that was a bit dramatic.

SplineGod
03-01-2009, 10:41 PM
CGTalk has been an extremely intolerant place for LW users or anyone who publically supports it. Its been that way for years.
The moderators who jumped into the fray are the same ones who like to gang up on the LW ppl. The CGTalk chat room has typically been the staging area for such things with Leigh in on the action. Believe me its not coincidence.

lwanmtr
03-01-2009, 10:51 PM
You think they're intolerant of LW..post a Poser question, sit back and watch the flames...which is funny because poser is often used by big houses for quick previs work.

Its funny, cgtalk used to have a forum for folks looking for work, now its gone...you have to use their job search..which is fine, but not alot of posts there

lwanmtr
03-01-2009, 10:52 PM
What book did she write?

lwanmtr
03-01-2009, 10:55 PM
Well, my way is the only way...LOL

lwanmtr
03-01-2009, 10:56 PM
Ok, then it is strange why she'd be such a hater...lol

IMI
03-01-2009, 11:06 PM
Lightwave 3D 8 Texturing from Wordware.

http://www.amazon.com/LightWave-Texturing-Wordware-Graphics-Library/dp/1556222858


Yeah, I bought that book a few months after it was released.
It's like it never even existed now, purged from Wordware's site, in spite of the fact that they still have other LW 8 books there. Coincidence? Maybe...
But it sucks they dropped their support, because the CD does have some missing files which I've never been able to get.

Over the years I've bought several LW Books and courses and she remains the only author I've ever contacted who never replied. I'm sure she's busy, but then again, I kind of doubt Dan Ablan and Steve Warner just sit around waiting for something to pop into their email inbox. ;)

The difference it seems is, she's simply not a nice person and harbors petty grudges which extend even to us, the innocent users of the software of the company she detests with every fiber of her being.

Silkrooster
03-01-2009, 11:32 PM
The thing is when you write books or sell software. You kind of have to have good form on the forums. Or it will come back and bite you later on. An electronic karma.

SplineGod
03-01-2009, 11:51 PM
The difference it seems is, she's simply not a nice person and harbors petty grudges which extend even to us, the innocent users of the software of the company she detests with every fiber of her being.

Bingo! You nailed it.

zapper1998
03-02-2009, 12:29 AM
I think we should have a CGtalk day...
Were we all make up about 1000+ Threads about Lightwave
And post them all over CGTalk Forum...



:)

Michael

Silkrooster
03-02-2009, 12:37 AM
I imagine that would get their goat... :lol:

cresshead
03-02-2009, 12:38 AM
I think we should have a CGtalk day...
Were we all make up about 1000+ Threads about Lightwave
And post them all over CGTalk Forum...



:)

Michael


now that's a cool idea.... and i'll name that day...release day of lightwave core...

zapper1998
03-02-2009, 12:42 AM
now that's a cool idea.... and i'll name that day...release day of lightwave core...

Cool

The Day Core Is released

We All Go to CGTalk and FLOOD em with posts....

I think I can generate about 100 diff posts in a few hours...

-Michael

Philbert
03-02-2009, 01:19 AM
Lightwave 3D 8 Texturing from Wordware.

http://www.amazon.com/LightWave-Texturing-Wordware-Graphics-Library/dp/1556222858

I won a copy of that book at Siggraph when I first met William Vaughan and Dick Van Dyk. I proudly have it right here on my shelf. Learned a lot from it.


Ok, then it is strange why she'd be such a hater...lol

I never understood this either. She used to be all about the LW. Then she flip-flopped. Removed anything about LightWave from her site, doesn't even mention writing that book in her resume. I would think no matter what your gripe having written a book is pretty good for the resume.

To think, I used to want to meet Leigh one day.

lwanmtr
03-02-2009, 01:26 AM
i think we should have a cgtalk day...
Were we all make up about 1000+ threads about lightwave
and post them all over cgtalk forum...


lol

cresshead
03-02-2009, 01:41 AM
we'll get banned you know!....err...so what!

omeone
03-02-2009, 01:49 AM
leigh van der blah...


...wow, that one post (and action) speaks more volumes than anything I have ever read on any forum, anywhere.


@ Cress great graph, represents the ONLY tangible rock-hard facts that software can be compared by - the price.

*Pete*
03-02-2009, 01:50 AM
I think we should have a CGtalk day...
Were we all make up about 1000+ Threads about Lightwave
And post them all over CGTalk Forum...



:)

Michael

yeah, and post tens of thousands of links to HardCORE site(s) :D

cresshead
03-02-2009, 01:57 AM
this was the final chart that caused all the fuss over on cgtalk>>

it's not lightwave focussed at all...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70391&d=1235809542

*Pete*
03-02-2009, 02:24 AM
you could even place the applications according to marketshare to further push the point if you would like to, but you didnt do it.

i think LW is at 2:nd or 3:rd place as most used/sold application.

Philbert
03-02-2009, 02:46 AM
leigh van der blah...


...wow, that one post (and action) speaks more volumes than anything I have ever read on any forum, anywhere.


Which one post?

omeone
03-02-2009, 02:56 AM
Which one post?

The last (and her only) one in which she decreed Cress' thread an Epic Fail and then locked it.

cresshead
03-02-2009, 03:24 AM
The last (and her only) one in which she decreed Cress' thread an Epic Fail and then locked it.

in a true core themed response....

"acid for blood"

or even better

"with those things running around [cg talk moderators]....you can count me out"

:)

alexos
03-02-2009, 03:53 AM
Leigh is the high priestess of hating LW there...
Eh? Didn't she write a LW8 book of some sort, which I bought and found completely useless but that's beyond the point?

ADP.

COBRASoft
03-02-2009, 04:24 AM
It shows clearly what personality she has... Not my type of woman :devil:

The chart is very clear to me. It shows perfectly what is reachable for a fixed budget for small companies. In this time of crisis it is very handy to see what is affordable and what is not. Well done cress!

DiedonD
03-02-2009, 05:32 AM
Heres what we could do. Things newbies should do to join our gang!

1) Go thorugh Tips and Tricks
2) Personally attack Leigh as a reaction to her nastyness at LW. Go nasty there, make her an example of what awaits people that choose her route!
3) Publish a thread at CG proudly showing that youre a LWer
4) Open a thread that links the three above, and await the Ceremonial Acceptance to the LW Gang here!

Kuzey
03-02-2009, 05:39 AM
I never understood this either. She used to be all about the LW. Then she flip-flopped. Removed anything about LightWave from her site, doesn't even mention writing that book in her resume.

I remember that, I think she was paid by someone not to mention LW at all. She even denied that her studio used LW in the films they worked on when it later came out that they did. You never know, she might still be using Lightwave but just calls it Maya or what ever :D

Kuzey

dobermunk
03-02-2009, 05:53 AM
@cresshead...

further software packages / plug-ins in overview here: http://wiki.animationsinstitut.de/doku.php?id=aqtree:generalinfo:npr:ref

In case you do something with cost overviews of 2D packages.

zapper1998
03-02-2009, 07:13 AM
Hey Mr Cresshead

Can I start a thread at CGTalk

Using your images and info From this thread to see the reaction happens twice in a row..??

Just asking... Curious thats all..

-Michael

jasonwestmas
03-02-2009, 07:30 AM
In my experience, if you don't have a lot of posts on CGS your posts will be more likely to be removed by the moderator.

cresshead
03-02-2009, 07:41 AM
Hey Mr Cresshead

Can I start a thread at CGTalk

Using your images and info From this thread to see the reaction happens twice in a row..??

Just asking... Curious thats all..

-Michael
I see no problem you using that image for your own thread.

i sure won't stop anyone even though cg talk will i think...the only thing would be that if they take offense they might pull my whole thread rather than just locking that thread.

still in my book it's a free world so it's up to you chap:D

cresshead
03-02-2009, 07:43 AM
In my experience, if you don't have a lot of posts on CGS your posts will be more likely to be removed by the moderator.

well i've posted 2348 times on cgtalk....:D

Kuzey
03-02-2009, 07:55 AM
well i've posted 2348 times on cgtalk....:D

haha...mine is a stunning total of 28, last post was in the year 2002.

Kuzey

jasonwestmas
03-02-2009, 08:18 AM
well i've posted 2348 times on cgtalk....:D

Well then, that says a lot about the nature of CGS.

Andyjaggy
03-02-2009, 08:53 AM
That's funny, I can't believe everyone was throwing such a fit over a price chart. I really, it reminds me of why I stopped visiting CGTalk all those years ago.

colkai
03-02-2009, 09:22 AM
One reason why I really didn't think the poll over there about LW had any point whatsoever. LW and CGS, never the twain shall meet.

jasonwestmas
03-02-2009, 09:41 AM
It's not called cg "SOCIETY" for nothing. I don't like the meaning that people have attached to that word. It's a "cast system" all over again, this time with industrial grade software.

dwburman
03-02-2009, 10:29 AM
I just read the thread and it didn't seem terribly heated to me. The only thing was that the "discussion" was between some forum users and forum staff.

When I look at the chart I have some concept of the capabilities of most of the software in my head. Srek seemed to have a problem with the chart because it doesn't provide enough info to be useful as if the chart exists in an information vacuum. Yeah, if you don't know anything about 3D apps then the chart is of limited use. Not useless, as he said. It could be used to show spouses that $900 for LW isn't so bad after all. If can be used to show clients that the tools of the trade are expensive. It can be used as a jumping off point to explore the different feature sets of the available apps.

IMI
03-02-2009, 10:43 AM
Eh? Didn't she write a LW8 book of some sort, which I bought and found completely useless but that's beyond the point?

ADP.

I wouldn't say it was completely useless. There was alot of stuff in there I already knew well enough, but there were a good many new gems of knowledge to be found. I never really understood what "special buffers" were for before reading it, for example.

The thing I found strange about the book reading it the first time is it was the first LW book I ever read where I had the feeling I was being talked down to. There's a good deal of condescending in it. At the time I thought it seemed a little strange, but I didn't know anything at all about her at that time. Now of course it all makes sense. ;)

IMI
03-02-2009, 11:53 AM
Also her book was one of the most recommended at the time and surely still has some useful tips today, so please don't take a piss on her now.

I would personally recommend LightWave 3D 8 Texturing to anyone new to LW (or even not so new), even if they're using LW 9.x... aside from that the eyeball and Les Paul textures are not on the CD even though they're supposed to be and Wordware apparently doesn't support the book any longer. Makes it difficult to do those tutorials.

Aside from that it has alot of really useful info in it. Although I do think it's more than a little odd that she would remove writing that book from her list of accomplishments. Petty, even, unless there's some legal issues there we're not aware of.

alexos
03-02-2009, 01:47 PM
I wouldn't say it was completely useless...

Well, of course it wasn't - but then again, what the hell - to me it was! :)

I mean, it did have useful stuff in it, like that "special buffers" explanation, but it wasn't the kind of thing that would make me go "oh, ah-hah!" and start experimenting right away - which for instance usually happened to me with the excellent, excellent "Lightwave Applied" books. And as you say, it *was* written in a kind of... detached... way that made it hard not to drop it and go hunting for some Nero Wolfe novel instead. Sorry if I sound harsh or something, but that book was SUCH a disappointment.

On a side note, however... I see that Amazon has some "Lightwave9 texturing" in store which, according to users' reviews, is "the same book, word for word" (plus nodes) but by a different author? Now that is strange...

ADP.

Earl
03-02-2009, 01:49 PM
It will be quite interesting to see how well LW bounces back into the fold with CORE and if certain extremely dissenting previous users come back or just stay away because they can't bear to eat crow. ;)
Honestly, I would rather those users just stayed away.

Red_Oddity
03-02-2009, 02:21 PM
I would like to see another chart, but now with the prices we pay in Europe (just to see what company gives a proper deal and what company screws you over by making 1 dollar worth 1 euro..for example Maya Unl. without subscription costs 6634.25 euros, which is roughly 8345.22 USD, not the 5159.39 euros when you would do a proper conversion. NT's LW costs 895 USD in the US and 795 euros in Europe, which is still more than when i would order it directly via NT US (711 euros then), but it seems a bit more fair than the 1850 USD markup AD handles.)

I wonder what the outcome would be when overlayed on top of that chart (still keeping 1cm per dollar when converted to dollars?)

IMI
03-02-2009, 02:23 PM
On a side note, however... I see that Amazon has some "Lightwave9 texturing" in store which, according to users' reviews, is "the same book, word for word" (plus nodes) but by a different author? Now that is strange...



Apparently WordWare does that all the time - using previous sections or entire chapters even, if it's still relevant. As you say, "plus nodes", they added a node section or sections to it. I don't know, I didn't buy that one.

Silkrooster
03-02-2009, 03:25 PM
It's not called cg "SOCIETY" for nothing. I don't like the meaning that people have attached to that word. It's a "cast system" all over again, this time with industrial grade software.

I wonder how many of them are sitting around a table at a library smoking a pipe. Getting ready to go skinning dipping in the pool.:D

Red_Oddity
03-02-2009, 04:11 PM
Did a small test with some raw data taken from vendors and where possible from the publishers own e-store, dumped it is OO and build some charts from the Calc data.

first chart:
USD is price in US stores, EUR is price in European (e)stores, EUR-USD is European store prices converted back to USD, Markup is EUR-USD price minus the original US store prices.

second chart, USD is original US store price, Markup is what is added to get to the European store price (just to get a view of how much of the price europeans pay is, well a markup.)

Funny how Houdini Master is cheaper over here than Maya Unlimited.

NOTE!
This is a test, don't pin me on this, to make this really believable, i should actually link my sources and mention that all prices are including local VAT and without any subscriptions/maintanance or member fees (for the euro prices i took al prices from the dutch stores where applicable.)

Have fun

cresshead
03-02-2009, 05:12 PM
Did a small test with some raw data taken from vendors and where possible from the publishers own e-store, dumped it is OO and build some charts from the Calc data.

first chart:
USD is price in US stores, EUR is price in European (e)stores, EUR-USD is European store prices converted back to USD, Markup is EUR-USD price minus the original US store prices.

second chart, USD is original US store price, Markup is what is added to get to the European store price (just to get a view of how much of the price europeans pay is, well a markup.)

Funny how Houdini Master is cheaper over here than Maya Unlimited.

NOTE!
This is a test, don't pin me on this, to make this really believable, i should actually link my sources and mention that all prices are including local VAT and without any subscriptions/maintanance or member fees (for the euro prices i took al prices from the dutch stores where applicable.)

Have fun

you should add in 3ds max to that chart as it's the lagest selling 3dapp and also put all the autodesk apps together..

Lightwolf
03-02-2009, 05:24 PM
i should actually link my sources and mention that all prices are including local VAT...
You should actually exclude VAT as it skews the pricing too much (and you'd need to cater for various sales taxes in the US as well).

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
03-02-2009, 05:39 PM
You should actually exclude VAT as it skews the pricing too much (and you'd need to cater for various sales taxes in the US as well).

Cheers,
Mike

well if i were doing such a chart i'd include 15% for the u.k.
as there are companies who let u.k. people buy from their internet stores
world-wide and have no extra taxes to add on.

like Newtek for example i pay in $ via the net for hardcore...same as anyone on planet earth.

especially as Autodesk are moving to a download only scheme...this year autodesk were asking if we'd like to NOT have a dvd sent in the post...year on yuear we get less physical media for our subs...back in max 4 we got 4 huge books and a handfull of cd's in as BIG heavy box for our upgrades...back at max 8 we got a couple of cd's and acolor intro guide book of about 150 pages....
max 2008, max 2009....just a dvd case....
now they say we'll get zip....just somewhere to download the files...

at THAT point i'd expect to pay the same as the usa and not be TAXED for being in the u.k.:thumbsdow

Lightwolf
03-02-2009, 06:10 PM
well if i were doing such a chart i'd include 15% for the u.k.
as there are companies who let u.k. people buy from their internet stores
world-wide and have no extra taxes to add on.

Include or exclude? Even within Europe, if you have a business and do cross border sales (and you have a VAT ID) you don't pay it. Plus it's deductable for a business.
You'd on the other hand need to include duty and VAT for direct imports from the US as well ;)

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
03-02-2009, 07:16 PM
Include or exclude? Even within Europe, if you have a business and do cross border sales (and you have a VAT ID) you don't pay it. Plus it's deductable for a business.
You'd on the other hand need to include duty and VAT for direct imports from the US as well ;)

Cheers,
Mike

i'm not vat registered
..yeah i know it all about 'me':D

Red_Oddity
03-03-2009, 02:14 AM
Yeah, it's a rough setup, for example, the Maya USD price was wrong, it included a 1 year subscription, it should actually have been $4995, the euro price was correct though, so that scews the markup even more (can't believe it is that high though, i'd almost think the reseller (Socrates.nl) made a mistake, or is the one screwing us.)

Also, i'm asuming (Who ever said asumption was the mother of f-ups?) the USA stores do prices that include VAT (if not, then this chart can printed out and used as toilet paper), Dutch stores are mandatory by law to always use prices that include VAT.

And i can't believe i forgot 3DMax.

Here's a corrected version.

Again, don't pin me on it, and as Lightwolf mentioned, VAT should actually be excluded from the chart, but i i'll see if i can do a proper one later today (i just fixed this in a couple of minutes time as i have a meeting in an hour but i couldn't have let the Maya and Max mistake stand.)

Lightwolf
03-03-2009, 02:27 AM
Also, i'm asuming (Who ever said asumption was the mother of f-ups?) the USA stores do prices that include VAT
There is no VAT in the US, only sales taxe, which varies from state to state (but, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be deductable).


Dutch stores are mandatory by law to always use prices that include VAT.

I'd suppose only for consumers. It's the same here, business 2 business pricing is usually without VAT though.

Cheers,
Mike

Philbert
03-03-2009, 02:39 AM
There is no VAT in the US, only sales taxe, which varies from state to state (but, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be deductable).


Yes, some states like Deleware and (I think) Washington have no sales tax. Here in Pennsylvania it's 6%, but if you go inside the Philadelphia city limits it becomes 7%. Of course if you buy online that's an entirely different story. If the company you're buying from is located in the same state as you, you have to pay tax, if not there is no tax. There seems to be some confusion about that though, I've seen some online stores charging tax when they didn't have to and others that should be, but aren't.

dwburman
03-03-2009, 07:43 PM
Actually, Oregon has no sales tax. Washington has no state income tax. :)


Yes, some states like Deleware and (I think) Washington have no sales tax.

Silkrooster
03-03-2009, 08:03 PM
Oh you lucky stiffs...:D
Here in New York the sales tax varies by the county. Where I am I believe it is around 8%.

Philbert
03-03-2009, 08:43 PM
Actually, Oregon has no sales tax. Washington has no state income tax. :)

Ah that's right I was just thinking of a friend who said he moved there and I somehow mixed up the names Oregon and Seattle.

lwanmtr
03-03-2009, 09:13 PM
Ah that's right I was just thinking of a friend who said he moved there and I somehow mixed up the names Oregon and Seattle.

Shame...we take offense at being confused with ohreegaan..lol

Wa sales tax is around 9-10%..pretty high

Red_Oddity
03-04-2009, 03:15 AM
Sales tax (VAT) over here is 19% and this year it will become 20% , so, you yanks are lucky ;P

Red_Oddity
03-04-2009, 03:32 AM
Also, just went back to CGTalk, and now this is a discussion thread : http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=732897

WTF? didn't they just close down a prices thread after just 4 pages of 'discussing'? (that got derailed by some moderator with a bad day (not Leigh, she merely closed it for no apparent reason))

sorry, for derailing this thread, but sh!t like this really gets my panties in a twist.

cresshead
03-04-2009, 04:08 AM
Also, just went back to CGTalk, and now this is a discussion thread : http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=732897

WTF? didn't they just close down a prices thread after just 4 pages of 'discussing'? (that got derailed by some moderator with a bad day (not Leigh, she merely closed it for no apparent reason))

sorry, for derailing this thread, but sh!t like this really gets my panties in a twist.

yeah but that didn't have a chart with lightwave in it did it?:phone_cal

lwanmtr
03-04-2009, 05:15 AM
yeah but that didn't have a chart with lightwave in it did it?:phone_cal

Yeah, bring up lw and see how fast it gets closed down..hehe

virtualcomposer
03-04-2009, 04:49 PM
Also, just went back to CGTalk, and now this is a discussion thread : http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=732897

WTF? didn't they just close down a prices thread after just 4 pages of 'discussing'? (that got derailed by some moderator with a bad day (not Leigh, she merely closed it for no apparent reason))

sorry, for derailing this thread, but sh!t like this really gets my panties in a twist.
It sounds like other animation companies don't want anyone to see the truth about how much money thousands of dollars really is. A price chart this good gives to clear a reality which is great for the buyer but bad for overpriced apps that have their own bugs. My opinion of course.