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wacom
02-24-2009, 07:42 PM
Regardless of if you think CORE will be a good thing or not I find it hard to sit back and let people dismiss many key feature of it in the discussion following the poll. Unfortunately some of these people are "respectable" on some front...but trapped in a mental box...

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=5701992&posted=1#post5701992

Vote THEN debate. I can handle people having intelligent reasons to not look into CORE, and the poll is a little early IMHO, but quite frankly some of these people are leaving comments that leave me REALLY frustrated.

Do people really think we've reached the end of the evolutionary line with 3D software development?!? Looks to me more like there are some lazy animation teachers that just couldn't be bothered to learn anything new...

JeffrySG
02-24-2009, 09:38 PM
Those might be the worst poll choices I've ever seen... I voted though...

wacom
02-24-2009, 09:46 PM
Why are they doing this? It seems really pre-mature to me. A poll is just so weird too- why not just an announcement? Most people have to see something in action, esp if they don't already use and own the application, to get excited about it. Right now it's mostly a feature list...

Don't get me wrong- I'm all for NT and I think I know what they're trying to do...but right now the marketing seems like a 14 year old boy on his first date...take it slow!

Cageman
02-25-2009, 02:34 AM
Yeah...

CGTalk made a poor choice in doing that poll now... they could at least have waited a couple of more months.

biliousfrog
02-25-2009, 02:51 AM
Perhaps it's a little early but I guess it's been done now because NewTek wants people to join now? It would be a bit strange to ask people whether any of the features will entice them to sign up after the price has gone up wouldn't it?

As for the responses, I think that they're all very valid. Honestly, I think that this type of mentality has to stop otherwise the software will never progress, you can't get all flustered and demand justice whenever a non-lightwave user gives an honest opinion on the software that you don't like. ALL opinions are valid and, if you and NewTek wants to see CORE become a competitor, you need to listen rather than become more introverted.

StereoMike
02-25-2009, 03:33 AM
That poll came from NT? I thought it was made up from some CGT guy? Cause giving three options that most of the other packages deliver more or less and one option to express that these 3 first "lame" options didn't impress you - made me think the poll was a torpedo directed at NT...

mike

jin choung
02-25-2009, 03:46 AM
looks like it's from the cgsociety dude... first poster....

jin

p.s. just started reading now but post 3 made me laugh....

*Pete*
02-25-2009, 03:56 AM
a crap poll...is it confirmed it is from NT?

man, their marketing is suicidal...

jin choung
02-25-2009, 03:58 AM
re: hr's point in the last post #37...

it's a completely modern architecture that is represented by features 10 years old (in the vid).

the critique that "it's only new to them" is as valid when applied to lw as it is when applied to modo.

"cma" is just an assertion right now. and all the demo'd features are indeed 10 years old.

they may be showing people googly eyed wonders in the HC but everyone else goes by what they bothered to show.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

in this case, i think the poll and the discussion is fair because newtek opened the door to it.

that's why it behooves them to not just introduce but to put their best foot forward. not just say they're gonna change 3d but actually show something representative of that (or at least not say that then).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so far core has shown enough to impress lw users in the direction it is taking. it has shown absolutely nothing that would impress anyone else. would anyone disagree with that?

jin

hrgiger
02-25-2009, 04:06 AM
so far core has shown enough to impress lw users in the direction it is taking. it has shown absolutely nothing that would impress anyone else. would anyone disagree with that?

jin

No, and I'm not disagreeing with that. Which is why I question a poll that only lists a few of the new features of Core which are features that other apps have had for years. It should be focused on the fact that Core is a completely open SDK and will use a nodal system possibly not unlike something used in Houdini or ICE in XSI. Core isn't about what they can show you right now(which again is why the poll is way too early), it's about where it can go now that it's not limited by Lightwaves former aging architecture.

jin choung
02-25-2009, 04:23 AM
It should be focused on the fact that Core is a completely open SDK and will use a nodal system possibly not unlike something used in Houdini or ICE in XSI. Core isn't about what they can show you right now(which again is why the poll is way too early), it's about where it can go now that it's not limited by Lightwaves former aging architecture.

right.

but they haven't demonstrated it. the other feature you mention is just words from mouths. they couldn't show it. ice wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on if it couldn't show it. and soft didn't push out a campaign until they could.

so it's a timely poll and insofar as that's what it's billed as, i'd say it's fair. again, because newtek opened that door.

jin

colkai
02-25-2009, 05:10 AM
To be honest, I'd of been amazed if it had got anything other than the reaction it has.
At best, way to early for folks using other packages to decide if it is worth getting on board for. Add to that they have so much invested in their current pipelines that it was never going to be anything other than the result it has been.
Maybe in Q4 the results would of been different, might be interesting to re-run it then.

Sarford
02-25-2009, 05:14 AM
...Core isn't about what they can show you right now(which again is why the poll is way too early), it's about where it can go now ....


Heh, I think you just summed up the issue of the battle between the fanboys and the naysayers

fanboys: "the most important fact is where core can go with this architecture"
naysayers: "the most important fact is what core can show NOW with this architecture"

very sharp HR :)

Sarford
02-25-2009, 05:18 AM
...and soft didn't push out a campaign until they could...

Well, they might have wanted to, but there is some law that prevents it. It states that if public companies make statements about a new release, that release HAS to be released in THAT quarter. That's why we never heared anything of ICE during the development.

It might be a wise strategy for NT also, but helping shape core is a nice option too.

JBT27
02-25-2009, 05:34 AM
Hmm.....keeping one's corporate mouth shut might have been a better option, with good old hindsight.

The singular lack of marketing acumen within NT (at least that's how it's looking from the bleak outside) is staggering. Truly.

The cgsociety poll serves little useful purpose, and months of this, if indeed that is what happens, will erode any advantage that NT could have had.

Julian.

grimoirecg
02-25-2009, 05:59 AM
Developing an awesome new package and then unleashing it on the world, complete with lots of 'look what our new app can do faster and better and cheaper than everyone else' videos is the only way to get attention.
Very few people are interested in what *might* be released 12 months from now, apart from the drooling NT fanboys, who would cut off their right nut if asked to do so, and people who use other apps literally couldn't care less about what NT are planning.

*Pete*
02-25-2009, 06:02 AM
Developing an awesome new package and then unleashing it on the world, complete with lots of 'look what our new app can do faster and better and cheaper than everyone else' videos is the only way to get attention.
Very few people are interested in what *might* be released 12 months from now, apart from the drooling NT fanboys, who would cut off their right nut if asked to do so, and people who use other apps literally couldn't care less about what NT are planning.

you know...NT gets it both ways, releasing it in beta now and full version (hopefully as awesome as you described) later in the year...

fanboys pleased, gadflys pleased, everyone happy.

biliousfrog
02-25-2009, 07:02 AM
Deleted...can't be bothered any more

*Pete*
02-25-2009, 07:36 AM
Deleted...can't be bothered any more

heh...im also on the verge to finally be able let it rest lol


final words about this (i hope), CORE is at a starting phase..fanboys testing it out is good for CORE and good for NT economy.
at the end of the year, hopefully CORE will be in a shape that will impress everyone.

there are no real loosers in this story at all, no real disagreements or possibilities to agree on anything either...we just look at the same coin from different sides, thats all...the coin is still the same, even if we disagree.

that said..NT marketing sucks.:thumbsdow

i often have a feeling that they are a bunch of good hearted people with the best of intentions, but completely naive and without knowledge over how to present a product.

wacom
02-25-2009, 12:38 PM
IMHO they should just stoke the fires internally (here) and on LW boards for now and let word of mouth do the rest.

People outside the current userbase are only going to be swayed by CORE when they get their hands on it and/or can see it's workflow.

I responded to The_Jaco on the cgtalk thread in more depth on this topic. I found it funny that he wouldn't see the fact that usability is the MAIN reason these "old features" should be of interest.

I mean, I love ICE, and it's sexy, but on paper it's just a half baked version of Houdini right now. However daily use of it shows it's a lot more IMHO.

I'm sure MODO folks love modeling in MODO for much the same reason.

Larry_g1s
02-25-2009, 02:20 PM
Yeah...

CGTalk made a poor choice in doing that poll now... they could at least have waited a couple of more months.It may be premature, but front page on CGTalk is still very cool exposure. And hey...maybe it'll get NT in double time for more info. :hey: (but please don't compromise the quality).

Cageman
02-25-2009, 05:33 PM
so far core has shown enough to impress lw users in the direction it is taking. it has shown absolutely nothing that would impress anyone else. would anyone disagree with that?

jin

Yeah... in a way I would dissagree...

My former Maya instructor and also a Maya beta-tester way back in time (yes, he is a Maya-guru more or less) viewed the original Core-reveal with me. It was fun, becuase he was impressed with the direction CORE has taken. He was happy to see that NewTek finaly has moved away from the old clunky LW that he (my former Maya instructor) absolutely hated with a passion.

He will pay attention to the developement of CORE just because of the architecture. If HE was impressed with this turnaround, others will be as well.

Larry_g1s
02-25-2009, 05:42 PM
so far core has shown enough to impress lw users in the direction it is taking. it has shown absolutely nothing that would impress anyone else. would anyone disagree with that?

jinI would. I've got a friend who works at a major animation studio (it's one of the top three), who is a Character TD and does complex rigging for their characters. He has a back ground in programming too. I pointed him to LW during the campaign for CORE, and after he heard it was written from the ground up, and Python & Qt (his two favs. to code in) were going to be involved he was very excited.

jin choung
02-25-2009, 06:05 PM
Yeah... in a way I would dissagree...

My former Maya instructor and also a Maya beta-tester way back in time (yes, he is a Maya-guru more or less) viewed the original Core-reveal with me. It was fun, becuase he was impressed with the direction CORE has taken. He was happy to see that NewTek finaly has moved away from the old clunky LW that he (my former Maya instructor) absolutely hated with a passion.

He will pay attention to the developement of CORE just because of the architecture. If HE was impressed with this turnaround, others will be as well.

well... he's looking at it like a lwer... he's comparing new lw to old lw which is how we look at it when we're impressed. but is he impressed when he compares what he saw with maya? there's something fundamentally flawed with his understanding of maya if he was.

what i mean is that none of the features demonstrated show ANYTHING... not one teeny tiny thing... that hasn't been around for 10+ years in other apps.

but if you disagree, you disagree.

jin

jin choung
02-25-2009, 06:07 PM
I would.

i really meant what was shown in demonstration.

the claims are so far just claims with nothing (impressive) to show them off. not saying it's not true but there's nothing there there for the public to consume.

jin

Larry_g1s
02-25-2009, 06:10 PM
i really meant what was shown in demonstration.

the claims are so far just claims with nothing (impressive) to show them off. not saying it's not true but there's nothing there there for the public to consume.

jinI gotcha. :thumbsup:

wacom
02-25-2009, 06:29 PM
what i mean is that none of the features demonstrated show ANYTHING... not one teeny tiny thing... that hasn't been around for 10+ years in other apps.


So you must use an ox cart to get to work? I mean it has wheels and like goes down the street and stuff.

Sometimes how you get there is important too. If the work flow of LW CORE feels better than some of the other apps it aims to emulate- so much the better esp. if it costs less.

As an XSI user I can honestly tell you that there is nothing in it that can't be done in Maya or Houdini in some way shape or form. Now why do I still use this application?

10 years ago eh? Well you're right- and a hell of a lot of it feels like it was coded 10 years ago!

Matt
02-25-2009, 07:26 PM
Wow, a lot of LW haters in that thread, I found the comment by the Maxon Tech Support guy particularly childish.

Typical trash talk about LightWave I've come to expect from CGTalk.

frantbk
02-25-2009, 08:16 PM
I'm not sure which was more disappointing everyone talking about NewTek and Lightwave being dead, or the bad time about the poll and their choices.

Not one person talked about the tools shown, or the tools they would like to see in Core. All they did was complain about history and stack being around for 10-12 years.

While I can see what most were complaining about that Core is NewTek's combination of tools sets already in the industry, how these tools set interact will make a difference from other applications.

Not one person put a positive spin on a tool already in use.

So here we go (so cut me some slack) Modo - work plane Lightwave Core - Construction plane. The work plane is now about 6 years old, and has only one function in modo. What would happen if NT made their construction plane with the ability to have weight maps, vertex map, Alpha map, background plate (pics.), or Alpha maps attached to it. Instead of having to setup background images for modeling why not use the construction plane? The construction plane is there to control the geometry, so add a new level of control to the construction plane.

Larry_g1s
02-25-2009, 09:18 PM
Wow, a lot of LW haters in that thread, I found the comment by the Maxon Tech Support guy particularly childish.

Typical trash talk about LightWave I've come to expect from CGTalk.I don't get it either. My comments on the boards in regards to the haters:

The negativity against LW astounds me sometimes, particularly with the possibilities of CORE. It's like all the things someone would dis-like about LW have (on paper I agree) can be irradiated.... and people still complain. I understand this is all on paper (Tech FAQ), but if this is in line with the competition, while leaving them with an older architecture in comparison, at such a lower price point...what's to compalian about?

I loved your response wacom/mocaw.

mikala
02-25-2009, 09:37 PM
I left a vote and a response.
Let them take that out of their up turned noses.

IMI
02-26-2009, 05:44 AM
meh.

Really, I'm just waiting for the day when CG Society *officially* becomes "Autodesk CG Society". ;)

Nemoid
02-26-2009, 06:10 AM
in the meantime it has become "CG toilet" :D

grimoirecg
02-26-2009, 07:15 AM
CGtalk has never had much of a LW user base anyway, just take a look at the application forums there and the LW forum barely ever gets into double figures of people viewing it, about equal to blender, while even cinema 4d currently has 50 people in it.

frantbk
02-26-2009, 07:44 AM
Woow, you guys just want to talk about how bad their acting at CGTalk. OK I got the message I let you gets carp about CGTalk. See you later. :thumbsup:

mikala
02-26-2009, 08:03 AM
Troll carp. An ancient bottom feeding variety.

IMI
02-26-2009, 08:34 AM
Anyone else having problems decoding that? :)

Isn't a carp some kind of deep water fish? Whatever, I just smell troll.

Freshwater fish found in a wide variety of depths and waters, from shallow, clean streams to deep, muddy rivers. They mostly are bottom feeders, sifting through the mud with their snouts like catfish and suckers, but will also eat minnows and insects at all depths. Though in muddy water where they can't see well, they pretty much stick to the bottom.
They can survive in almost completely stagnant, poorly oxygenated, and polluted water for a surprising amount of time. In temporary small pools which fill up after spring thaws with river water (like in a flood plain), but evaporate completely by Summertime, carped trapped there will usually be the last species to die, living for as long as there is enough water to cover their bodies at least halfway.

Where I grew up in the northeastern US, we had a huge river which would overflow every Spring after the ice thawed after Winter. The whole area immediately surrounding the river was filled with sinkholes which were normally dry except for about March to July. The sinkholes would fill up with the muddiest, nastiest most stagnated water you ever saw, and it seems it was only the carp which got trapped there which survived for any amount of time. Right up to the end, really.

I used to see them in the cleaner, shallow streams which fed into the river, but that was fairly rare, but the river itself was teaming with them. The river carp frequently exceeded 4 feet in length.

I think, though I may be mistaken, that carp are members of the same family as goldfish and those larger, decorative whatever-you-call-'em fish that people put in their outdoor ponds.

mikala
02-26-2009, 08:48 AM
Koi :)

IMI
02-26-2009, 08:49 AM
Koi :)

Yeah, that's right. I was racking my brain trying to remember that. :)

*Pete*
02-26-2009, 09:02 AM
Freshwater fish found in a wide variety of depths and waters, from shallow, clean streams to deep, muddy rivers. They mostly are bottom feeders, sifting through the mud with their snouts like catfish and suckers, but will also eat minnows and insects at all depths. Though in muddy water where they can't see well, they pretty much stick to the bottom.
They can survive in almost completely stagnant, poorly oxygenated, and polluted water for a surprising amount of time. In temporary small pools which fill up after spring thaws with river water (like in a flood plain), but evaporate completely by Summertime, carped trapped there will usually be the last species to die, living for as long as there is enough water to cover their bodies at least halfway.

Where I grew up in the northeastern US, we had a huge river which would overflow every Spring after the ice thawed after Winter. The whole area immediately surrounding the river was filled with sinkholes which were normally dry except for about March to July. The sinkholes would fill up with the muddiest, nastiest most stagnated water you ever saw, and it seems it was only the carp which got trapped there which survived for any amount of time. Right up to the end, really.

I used to see them in the cleaner, shallow streams which fed into the river, but that was fairly rare, but the river itself was teaming with them. The river carp frequently exceeded 4 feet in length.

I think, though I may be mistaken, that carp are members of the same family as goldfish and those larger, decorative whatever-you-call-'em fish that people put in their outdoor ponds.

so. to get rid of troll-carps, what can we do?..they survive without comments, eh..i mean, oxygen so not feeding them obviously wont help.

urinating in the water propably makes them happy..so how can we get rid of them?

suggestions?

*Pete*
02-26-2009, 09:03 AM
HEY!!!

im a SUPER MEMBER!!!!

i got finally awarded up from "registered user".


(no, i didnt change it myself)

*Pete*
02-26-2009, 09:05 AM
could it be becouse of hardcore?...looks like i got access to there now.

Larry_g1s
02-26-2009, 09:21 AM
meh.

Really, I'm just waiting for the day when CG Society *officially* becomes "Autodesk CG Society". ;)I enjoy CGTalk/Society, but that is sadly slightly true. lol

IMI
02-26-2009, 09:48 AM
could it be becouse of hardcore?...looks like i got access to there now.

Oooh...ooohh... look at meeee... I'm a Soooper Member...

No more buttered scones for me, Mater, I'm off to play the graaand piaaano...

:D

IMI
02-26-2009, 10:28 AM
urinating in the water propably makes them happy..so how can we get rid of them?

suggestions?

Dry up their reservoir is the only way.
In Forumese I imagine that would be, have no discussions at all until they either get bored and drift away or forget what they were doing and drift away.

In the specific case above though, I think the attention span is short enough to offer decent odds that he'll simply wander off. He did, after all, say "See you later."
Whether that means later, here, or later elsewhere is anyone's guess.

Just use big multi-syllable words next time. ;)

*Pete*
02-26-2009, 10:36 AM
Oooh...ooohh... look at meeee... I'm a Soooper Member...

No more buttered scones for me, Mater, I'm off to play the graaand piaaano...

:D

lol..but seriously, i didnt touch it, it changed into super member by itself lol

i tried in the past to change it, but it never worked and i didnt want to bother with for the fear of loosing my post count, and even if i would have, i wouldnt have chosen "Super member"..altough, truth to be told, it fits me.

robertoortiz
02-26-2009, 10:59 AM
CGtalk has never had much of a LW user base anyway, just take a look at the application forums there and the LW forum barely ever gets into double figures of people viewing it, about equal to blender, while even cinema 4d currently has 50 people in it.
Hi guys,
as some of your know, I am a forum leader at the cgsociety forum.
(BTW I am speaking at my own volition)

I can say with confidence that Lightwave is welcomed at the forum, and Shade01 has done a hell of a job troll hunting on the LW forum.

And guys I am, for the record, a hardcore Lightwave user.
(Hell I am using it right now)

Ever since I have been doing 3D I have been a LW user (starting with version 5.0), and I have been supporting Newtek as a company since my Amiga days back in the early 90's.

If you want to impress people, please do participate in our mini challenges.
They are great ways to build a porfolio, they are app neutral (I make sure of that)
and you can impress people fast.

Trust me I know, I run some of them.

Anyway this is a perfect way to show people what the app can do.


If anyone starts trolling in one of the LW threads please do let us know

frantbk
02-26-2009, 12:02 PM
Anyone else having problems decoding that? :)

Isn't a carp some kind of deep water fish? Whatever, I just smell troll.

You guys don't want to talk about the tools, Lightwave Core, or any of that. All this thread is about is everyone here carping (whining, *****ing, grousing, etc.) about people's post at CGTalk and how wrong you think they are. That 's fine, but that's not going to help, or change anything at CGTalk.

All I stated was I was wrong with my first post because it isn't what you all want to do. You want to carp about CGTalk and I'm leaving. You need to stop calling people troll's just because they exercise the same right your doing. Pointing out what your doing in their view. Have a good day, and a good weekend. :D

jin choung
02-26-2009, 12:11 PM
So you must use an ox cart to get to work? I mean it has wheels and like goes down the street and stuff.

not a good analogy.

i'm saying that what they showed (in the vid in particular) shows nothing more than an ox-cart.

you're saying that somehow, they showed a car. they didn't.

your argument is that it probably is a car but that's what i'm saying, if there's impressive and INNOVATIVE stuff, they haven't showed it.

everything in that video is literally 10 years old ala max and maya.

jin

IMI
02-26-2009, 01:57 PM
You guys don't want to talk about the tools, Lightwave Core, or any of that. All this thread is about is everyone here carping (whining, *****ing, grousing, etc.) about people's post at CGTalk and how wrong you think they are. That 's fine, but that's not going to help, or change anything at CGTalk.


What the hell are you talking about? Wait, let me guess - once again, you don't even know what you're talking about.
We talk about the tools, LW CORE, and all kinds of crap (even carp) all the damn time.
And if the subject of CG Talk comes up, where they just so happen to have a premature and lame poll with questions virtually *designed* to begin a flamefest or a laugh-off, what do you expect is going to happen when news of it makes it here?
Yes, frankie, since I'm sure you didn't follow that, I'll 'splain it: some people are going to make fun of it.




All I stated was I was wrong with my first post because it isn't what you all want to do.


Huh?
On second thought, never mind.



You want to carp about CGTalk and I'm leaving.

Gee, that's a shame. Was it something we said?
As they say, don't go away mad... just go away.

IMI
02-26-2009, 05:13 PM
lol..but seriously, i didnt touch it, it changed into super member by itself lol


I guess the 3D gods smilith upon ye. ;)

ctuller
02-26-2009, 06:02 PM
What the hell are you talking about?

Generally I donlt agree with most of what frantbk is saying but this time I think he's on point.

carp1   /kɑrp/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kahrp] Show IPA
–verb (used without object) 1. to find fault or complain querulously or unreasonably; be niggling in criticizing; cavil: to carp at minor errors.

–noun 2. a peevish complaint.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1200–50; ME carpen to speak, prate < ON karpa to brag, wrangle

Related forms:

carper, noun


Synonyms:
1. criticize, deprecate, condemn, censure.

IMI
02-26-2009, 06:38 PM
Generally I donlt agree with most of what frantbk is saying but this time I think he's on point.

carp1   /kɑrp/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kahrp] Show IPA
–verb (used without object) 1. to find fault or complain querulously or unreasonably; be niggling in criticizing; cavil: to carp at minor errors.
.

Yes, thank you, though I am well aware of "carp" as a verb.
If you read back a few pages you'll see how it evolved. :)

mikala
02-27-2009, 04:28 PM
Unsubbed from the thread over on the "talk".
People yapping about stuff the majority of LW'ers have not seen yet.
Crazy to say "I hate something or wouldn't be interested in something" before they even know what it can or can't do. All I hear is the wind blowing through their nostril hair as they B'n'M.