PDA

View Full Version : More from the CORE...



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

jayroth
02-19-2009, 03:13 PM
Hi everybody,


There's been a lot of interest and discussion following our recent LightWave CORE announcement. Many of you are very excited about LightWave CORE, but you'd like more information; more details. So, let's dive a bit deeper into LightWave CORE.

Our goal since beginning this direction over two years ago was to create a path of evolution that does not make you, our loyal customers, feel abandoned by facing a completely foreign workflow and UI (as has been the case for some other 3D apps in the past), yet through our LightWave CORE roadmap providing you with the best next-generation technology any current 3D app can provide.

From this point on, new purchases, upgrades and HardCORE memberships will be receiving LightWave CORE, which incorporates the new framework, engine and features. LightWave will be forever improving and you are a part of a significant moment in time, a time that can be looked back to one day and be recognized as the milestone when LightWave began its new path of evolution.

LightWave CORE is the new technology engine that will eventually completely supplant the current engine. Your mesh assets, image maps and some surfacing attributes will be accessible to LightWave CORE, but plug ins will not be. We will work with third parties to help guide them as they port their products over to LightWave CORE.

For now, our primary focus for LightWave CORE will be in the modeling environment. We have had so many ideas for modeling in the past, but we really needed the CORE architecture to take it to a whole new level. Of course, CORE is capable of anything, but we did need to start somewhere -- modeling was a good choice, and modeling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year. We will discuss specifics as we move along with the project.

So what happens to the LightWave 9 series?

As you know, we recently shipped LightWave 9.6, and you've told us that it's, hands-down, the very best version of LightWave we've ever-shipped. Of course, no software product is ever perfect, so we will continue to support LightWave 9.x by providing technical support, and free bug-fix releases as deemed necessary by NewTek. However, we do not plan any new feature releases in the 9.x series. All the improvements that we have planned for LightWave will be offered as part of the HardCORE membership program.

We have a strong vision for what will make LightWave CORE the best 3D app on the planet, but we cannot do this without you: we plan to use the feedback we get from our HardCORE members and from our key account users to deliver that.

Many of you have already made the leap and joined our HardCORE program. Thank you very much for doing that. We truly appreciated the important contribution that many of you made in the 9.x Open Beta program, and we are looking forward to getting your input for LightWave CORE.

Some of you are still considering whether you should join the HardCORE program or not. I truly hope you will. Not only will you get early access to LightWave CORE technology, but you'll get to play a role in shaping our next generation 3D application.

Now, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that the HardCORE program is probably not for everyone. If you need to know in advance every detail of every feature we're going to deliver before you make your decision, then you should most definitely wait until we ship the first LightWave CORE version and we publish a final feature list.

On to the screens:
------------------------

70011

This screen illustrates a sample of instancing in CORE. Instancing is handled via the CORE scene graph. Instances are created via the “Clone” command. In this illustration, We can see the source object is also sub divided to 17 levels, for a total of 8,102,115 polygons (quads and tris.) There are seven total objects, one master and six clones, for a scene total of 56,714,805 polygons. Playback speed in this case is dictated by system resources and graphics card memory. In this example, the card is an Nvidia Quadro FX1600M, with 512MB RAM, 256 Dedicated, running on a Dell Precision M6300 Laptop with 2GB of RAM, and WinXP SP3.

Credits: Dragon Mesh by Lino Grandi and Alessandro Di Fulvio

Note: the user interface as presented is an engineering skin, and should not be considered final.

70012

This screen illustrates the use of the GPU and GPU memory for handling subdivision surfaces. This example shows that the mesh is subdivided to 30 levels, for a total of 25,231,500 polygons. At this level, the user still has very good tool and view performance, as the GPU is doing most of the work. In this example, the card is an Nvidia Quadro FX1600M, with 512MB RAM, 256 Dedicated, running on a Dell Precision M6300 Laptop with 2GB of RAM, and WinXP SP3.

Credits: Dragon Mesh by Lino Grandi and Alessandro Di Fulvio

Note: the user interface as presented is an engineering skin, and should not be considered final.

-------------------------------

Stay tuned. We'll have some more LightWave CORE details, screen shots, videos, etc. to show you in the coming weeks.

geothefaust
02-19-2009, 03:18 PM
Ah yes, behold the power of GPU-aware SubDs!

lwanmtr
02-19-2009, 03:18 PM
Neat

Cageman
02-19-2009, 03:18 PM
Instancing is handled via the CORE screen graph.

Is it a typo or is it called screen graph? I thought it was called scene graph.

:)

Anyhow...

GREAT info Jay! Keep 'em comming!

tribbles
02-19-2009, 03:19 PM
I like the cleanliness of the interface - especially the use of AA fonts (keep them!). Even if it's just an engineering skin, it's very nice.

Thanks for putting them up!

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 03:22 PM
If I can edit a 25 million polygon object smoothly you just got my money.

geothefaust
02-19-2009, 03:24 PM
If I can edit a 25 million polygon object smoothly you just got my money.

Yeah, pretty sweet. Plus notice that is on a dinky laptop. On a work station that is meant to churn out alot of polys... Imagine how many you could crank out with a great video card.

Cageman
02-19-2009, 03:25 PM
If I can edit a 25 million polygon object smoothly you just got my money.

Bare in mind the computer specs in the screenshots... it's a frickin laptop!

:)

lwanmtr
02-19-2009, 03:26 PM
Bare in mind the computer specs in the screenshots... it's a frickin laptop!

:)

Which means it will only work on laptops...workstations are obsolete now..LOL

jayroth
02-19-2009, 03:28 PM
Is it a typo or is it called screen graph? I thought it was called scene graph.

:)

Anyhow...

GREAT info Jay! Keep 'em comming!

Typo. Oops. Corrected now.

geothefaust
02-19-2009, 03:28 PM
I hope Jin is seeing this. Not only did LW skip over going Soviet, it went straight for the cake and ate it too. Heh.

Lewis
02-19-2009, 03:29 PM
Very nice screen grabs Jay, thanks :).

Weetos
02-19-2009, 03:29 PM
Do you guys know how does this card compares to say a 8800 or a 8600?

Mike_RB
02-19-2009, 03:31 PM
Thanks for the info Jay, whats the non SDS polycount of that dragon?

Chris S. (Fez)
02-19-2009, 03:32 PM
Sold! Thanks for the update.

Weetos
02-19-2009, 03:33 PM
I hope Jin is seeing this.

errm Jin, Jay said 'polygons' not 'boobs' - But yeah this is still amazing ;)

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 03:33 PM
Do you guys know how does this card compares to say a 8800 or a 8600?

Pretty much the same as any of the 8xxx series cards.

Hand twitching over the buy core/wife kills me button. I want to see that dragon being edit though. Grab a few of those 25 million polys and extrude them. So I guess I'm still not completely satiated.

Cageman
02-19-2009, 03:34 PM
thanks for the info jay, whats the non sds polycount of that dragon?

27196

hrgiger
02-19-2009, 03:34 PM
Thanks for the info Jay, whats the non SDS polycount of that dragon?

27,196. It's in the 9.6 content.

Weetos
02-19-2009, 03:35 PM
Pretty much the same as any of the 8xxx series cards.

Ok - thanks Andy - Now this is pretty much impressive !

Cageman
02-19-2009, 03:37 PM
27,196. It's in the 9.6 content.

Quite interresting.. Modeler 9.6 does slow down notably when enable subd on this object. Just goes to show how old architecture Modeler is, really.

:)

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 03:37 PM
Ok - thanks Andy - Now this is pretty much impressive !

If we can edit smoothly at that speed yes it is. Right up there with how many polys you can push around in mudbox. Lightwave sculpting anyone?

Nemoid
02-19-2009, 03:41 PM
Awesome !
Thanks for the informations!
It seeems CORE is a real monster ( in the positive sense):thumbsup:

jayroth
02-19-2009, 03:51 PM
Thanks for the info Jay, whats the non SDS polycount of that dragon?

Around 27K polys, as I recall...

the3dwiz
02-19-2009, 03:53 PM
Thanks for the infos! This is what i was waiting for! Im looking forward for the next round of Pics/Videos. As far, i like what i see!

geothefaust
02-19-2009, 03:55 PM
Jay did say that he was still able to edit, tumble, pan, etc..





Pretty much the same as any of the 8xxx series cards.

Hand twitching over the buy core/wife kills me button. I want to see that dragon being edit though. Grab a few of those 25 million polys and extrude them. So I guess I'm still not completely satiated.

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 03:58 PM
Yeah well I want to see it. Not just tumble and pan mind you, I want to be able to EDIT the object. Move point and polygons around.

Okay I don't know when I would really need to be editing a 25 million poly object but I want to see it anyway. :D

geothefaust
02-19-2009, 03:58 PM
Lol. :D

Matt
02-19-2009, 04:09 PM
Thanks for the update Jay, much appreciated.

(Matt runs off to recreate that UI in Qt Designer for testing purposes!) :D

mojotribe
02-19-2009, 04:10 PM
Do you guys know how does this card compares to say a 8800 or a 8600?

Quadro FX1600M is based on G84GLM chip, almost the same as G84M which is used in Geforce 8xxxM series.
This card is slower than 8700 GTS/GT on GPU's calculation power, but faster in "clean" OGL environment.
regards
p.

Mike_RB
02-19-2009, 04:13 PM
interesting, a 27k poly SDS object with a limit surface of 25M in modo gives about 8 fps tumble and edit speed when pulling points. If you guys can keep that up at the 60fps range that would be very nice! That was on an fx3700 and using 800k in memory. Looking forward to seeing more, thats a great change for LW's memory consumption of SDS polys.

Larry_g1s
02-19-2009, 04:14 PM
Core = duh duh duh duh duh...I'm Lovin' it.

I'm sorry, that was bad...I don't even like McDonald's.

Kryos
02-19-2009, 04:18 PM
Well, I'm liking what I'm seeing thus far, that's for sure. Now what I'd like to see is that in real time in a video, editing said object.

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 04:19 PM
Well considering you can hardly even view a 27k base mesh in modeler at anything higher then a 5 or 6 level without crashing this is a huuuuuge improvement.

Weepul
02-19-2009, 04:22 PM
How's the view and editing performance when the mesh is frozen at that resolution? Modeler has always been faster with polygons resulting from dynamic subdivision than explicit polygons...

Victor Velasco
02-19-2009, 04:23 PM
Yes, I believe that polycount alone is worth the upgrade!

mav3rick
02-19-2009, 04:30 PM
great jay !!!! core is monster indeed

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 04:32 PM
interesting, a 27k poly SDS object with a limit surface of 25M in modo gives about 8 fps tumble and edit speed when pulling points. If you guys can keep that up at the 60fps range that would be very nice! That was on an fx3700 and using 800k in memory. Looking forward to seeing more, thats a great change for LW's memory consumption of SDS polys.

Really? I was never able to edit that many polygons in modo without it being totally unusable. Are you on pretty high end hardware? Or am I just not remembering correctly?

Remember this example was on a dinky laptop.

Edit: Just noticed you were on a fx3700. A $800.00 video card. :)

Mike_RB
02-19-2009, 04:36 PM
didnt expect you will compare anything else

I'm working in modo at the moment, and as it looks like core is now up in that ballpark of speed, I'm happy. XSI gives me 120fps tumble and 10fps edit. :)

Mike_RB
02-19-2009, 04:37 PM
Really? I was never able to edit that many polygons in modo without it being totally unusable. Are you on pretty high end hardware? Or am I just not remembering correctly?

Remember this example was on a dinky laptop.

Edit: Just noticed you were on a fx3700. A $800.00 video card. :)

Always work on a quadro. multi-viewport acceleration, and proper wireframe sorting (which means faster selections). Love it.

Myagi
02-19-2009, 04:39 PM
Yes yes, I know it's an engineering skin and all that, but it still scares me that there is no XYZ/info box in the UI, especially if modelling is so much in focus. Might seem trivial, but I really like that little buddy, and it's a part of my LWFeeling(tm) :P

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 04:47 PM
Always work on a quadro. multi-viewport acceleration, and proper wireframe sorting (which means faster selections). Love it.

Does it speed up working in modeler, because I seem to remember someone saying they didn't do much for you in Lightwave. Although I guess that doesn't matter anymore as everything is changing.

Mike_RB
02-19-2009, 04:52 PM
Does it speed up working in modeler, because I seem to remember someone saying they didn't do much for you in Lightwave. Although I guess that doesn't matter anymore as everything is changing.

Hard to say as I've been working with quadros for so long, but anything with wires or multi viewports its much nicer. I don't think video cards were what was holding us back in modeler though...

Mr_Q
02-19-2009, 05:05 PM
Neat, but Modeling only? Why does this sound familiar and ultimately depressing. Is it impossible to release a complete application at launch nowadays? :\

Mike_RB
02-19-2009, 05:06 PM
Neat, but Modeling only? Why does this sound familiar and ultimately depressing. Is it impossible to release a complete application at launch nowadays? :\

Well, he did say it's the 'primary focus'. Whatever that means.

Nicolas Jordan
02-19-2009, 05:10 PM
Ahhh...that's much clearer than those blurry videos. :) Looking forward to more Core screen grab and video treats.

Kuzey
02-19-2009, 05:10 PM
Neat, but Modeling only? Why does this sound familiar and ultimately depressing. Is it impossible to release a complete application at launch nowadays? :\

The render side has seen a lot of development for some time and now the modeling side will/should catch up, it will be a complete program...hopefully :D

Kuzey

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 05:11 PM
I think they would be much better off at least getting the renderer and lighting into core for the first launch. At least then we won't have a well... you can imagine.

I would have thought for sure that they had reworked the rendering engine during 9.x to be able to plug right into this core thing. But perhaps it's not that simple. It seldom is I suppose.

Mr_Q
02-19-2009, 05:11 PM
The render side has seen a lot of development for some time and now the modeling side will/should catch up, it will be a complete program...hopefully :D

Kuzey

Really? Because that's not what Jay said in his post.

Nicolas Jordan
02-19-2009, 05:13 PM
For now, our primary focus for LightWave CORE will be in the modeling environment.

Does this mean there will be no bones or rigging tools present in the first release of Core similar to what's currently present in 9.6 or is that still up in air at the moment?

Kuzey
02-19-2009, 05:14 PM
I would have thought for sure that they had reworked the rendering engine during 9.x to be able to plug right into this core thing. But perhaps it's not that simple. It seldom is I suppose.

I'm sure they have, but are just showing parts that lacked progress before..I hope :D

Kuzey

*Pete*
02-19-2009, 05:14 PM
errm Jin, Jay said 'polygons' not 'boobs' - But yeah this is still amazing ;)

heh, yeah...i doubt even Jin could be capable of handling 25 million boobs in real time.

jasonwestmas
02-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Well, he did say it's the 'primary focus'. Whatever that means.

I'm not sure who NT is being compared to. In an optimistic view it means they want modeling tools to be Outstanding before giving full attention to the animation and rendering because NT doesn't have the manpower to do otherwise. It makes sense.

hrgiger
02-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Neat, but Modeling only? Why does this sound familiar and ultimately depressing. Is it impossible to release a complete application at launch nowadays? :\

It's not modeler only, it's got a modeler focus for the first release. Meaning that Core was designed to be a full applicaiton and that the modeler is going to receive the focus for the first release. It's not a a modeler that's going to have a lighting and rendering system and animation piled on top of it. Now that, sounds familiar and ultimately depressing.

Cageman
02-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Really? Because that's not what Jay said in his post.

I would say it is vague at best...

"CORE is capable of anything, but we did need to start somewhere -- modeling was a good choice, and modeling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year."

If he would have ment Q4 or the actuall release version of CORE, he would have said that. I do get an indication that there may be more for the Q4 (final) release.

We'll see...

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 05:16 PM
So is he banned for good then? Or was it a temporary thing?

Cageman
02-19-2009, 05:18 PM
So is he banned for good then? Or was it a temporary thing?

Two weeks

Mr_Q
02-19-2009, 05:18 PM
does this mean there will be no bones or rigging tools present in the first release of core similar to what's currently present in 9.6 or is that still up in air at the moment?


zing!

Weetos
02-19-2009, 05:18 PM
I believe Jin got banned for two weeks

Edit: Cageman beat me to it :P

pjfoley
02-19-2009, 05:19 PM
LW as it is now is actually very, very deep. There are probably dozens upon dozens of tools and buttons and scripts and plugins that you never need in your day-to-day use.
On the other hand, there's plenty of other potential customers out there that rely on those same tools--or even just one of them!
Newtek (or any other developer of a large system) needs to make new equivalents of as many of these features as possible-- exclusion of just one of these things might make the upgrade totally useless for a potential customer.
There's a lot of work to do no matter what way you look at it. Starting with modeling might be a good way to find out what's missing and what matters really quickly. I'm sure doing a survey is not the right way to do it, as so many of us use so many things unconsciously, that it wold be impossible to remember and list them all.
Me? Make a box, bevel, tab, done. That's all I need. Oh, and the knife... oh, and smooth shift... oh and...

Andyjaggy
02-19-2009, 05:22 PM
Well even if it is just a modeler I think I am going to jump on the core ship. I want to have a voice in what tools and workflow gets implemented for modeling, as this is something I do on a regular basis and have some strong opinions on. I still am hoping that it ends up being more then just a modeler for the first release, but time will tell, I doubt even NT knows exactly what is going to happen.

CourtJester
02-19-2009, 05:25 PM
Of course, no software product is ever perfect, so we will continue to support LightWave 9.x by providing technical support, and free bug-fix releases as deemed necessary by NewTek.

Oh goody. Because I sure have some content.

I am curious to know what standards will be used by Newtek to determine what is to be "deemed necessary".

Larry_g1s
02-19-2009, 05:27 PM
Well even if it is just a modeler I think I am going to jump on the core ship. I want to have a voice in what tools and workflow gets implemented for modeling, as this is something I do on a regular basis and have some strong opinions on. I still am hoping that it ends up being more then just a modeler for the first release, but time will tell, I doubt even NT knows exactly what is going to happen.I think this is a great attitude (i.e. to be a part of shaping CORE). There are a lot of people here that can give great input.

Cageman
02-19-2009, 05:27 PM
I doubt even NT knows exactly what is going to happen.

:)

Well.. I'm quite sure that NewTek has some form of roadmap or plan for the whole thing. Remember... they did spend 2 years designing CORE. I'm quite sure they have plenty of things they want to implement. Depending on how things progress (lets say that things go on schedule), we will probably see more than just Modeling when CORE v1.0 finaly ships in Q4.

*Pete*
02-19-2009, 05:28 PM
to those who believe it will be modeller only...ask yourself a question.

why instancing, if CORE cant render?


Personally, i take it as many others here, CORE will have most of what 9.6 had in terms of Layout stuff, but the modeller is getting worked on heavily to get it up to date.

25 million polys...hah, my PC would melt by the thought of it in 9.6.
wonderfull news, this is as close to a sure pointer of sculpting in LW as we will ever get...im confident that at the time of release at Q4, CORE will be a monster of an application.



I believe Jin got banned for two weeks


for what?

Cageman
02-19-2009, 05:29 PM
[b]I am curious to know what standards will be used by Newtek to determine what is to be "deemed necessary".

Fill in some bugreports and have a look.

mav3rick
02-19-2009, 05:29 PM
I'm working in modo at the moment, and as it looks like core is now up in that ballpark of speed, I'm happy. XSI gives me 120fps tumble and 10fps edit. :)

do you compare direct x or ogl in xsi?

*Pete*
02-19-2009, 05:30 PM
I think this is a great attitude (i.e. to be a part of shaping CORE). There are a lot of people here that can give great input.

yeah...me, ill join for selfish purposes (in a few weeks from now), ill join to learn all the new stuff from scratch...best free education you can get.

Larry_g1s
02-19-2009, 05:34 PM
yeah...me, ill join for selfish purposes (in a few weeks from now), ill join to learn all the new stuff from scratch...best free education you can get.I think the video training (assuming that's what you're referring too, is something highly over looked in the HC subscription.

*Pete*
02-19-2009, 05:41 PM
I think the video training (assuming that's what you're referring too, is something highly over looked in the HC subscription.

no, im refering to the deep testing and discussions about new features at beta forums.

i learned so much from dave Jerrards AA explanation, Expections GI guide, Matts fiberfx guide..and so on, many people find new ways to use the tools and i wish to be around when those new ways are discovered.

Mike_RB
02-19-2009, 05:41 PM
do you compare direct x or ogl in xsi? OpenGL.

TSpyrison
02-19-2009, 05:42 PM
Since modeling is the focus for this time..

I guess my question is this..

Will I be able to do something usefull with the models made with core with the final Q4 release?

hrgiger
02-19-2009, 05:45 PM
Will I be able to do something usefull with the models made with core with the final Q4 release?

As long as its legal.

Matt
02-19-2009, 05:49 PM
I believe Jin got banned for two weeks

I wondered why it was so quiet around here ;)

:p

3D Kiwi
02-19-2009, 05:53 PM
Since modeling is the focus for this time..

I guess my question is this..

Will I be able to do something usefull with the models made with core with the final Q4 release?

Thats my concern as well, will you be able to take a project from start to finish, eg, model, animate, render in core, or will you be forced to animate or render out of 9.6, or another app???

serge
02-19-2009, 05:54 PM
... If you need to know in advance every detail of every feature we're going to deliver before you make your decision, then you should most definitely wait until we ship the first LightWave CORE version and we publish a final feature list...
No Jay, not every detail of every feature. I'd just like to know what the intentions are. What do you expect will be delivered in Q4? No details necessary, just a rough estimate.

*Pete*
02-19-2009, 05:54 PM
Thats my concern as well, will you be able to take a project from start to finish, eg, model, animate, render in core, or will you be forced to animate or render out of 9.6, or another app???

why instancing if you cant render?

Mark The Great
02-19-2009, 05:57 PM
That's pure awesome, Jay. :lightwave

*Pete*
02-19-2009, 05:57 PM
No Jay, not every detail of every feature. I'd just like to know what the intentions are. What do you expect will be delivered in Q4? No details necessary, just a rough estimate.



We have a strong vision for what will make LightWave CORE the best 3D app on the planet
:D:D:thumbsup::lwicon:

The Dommo
02-19-2009, 05:58 PM
Always work on a quadro. multi-viewport acceleration, and proper wireframe sorting (which means faster selections). Love it.

:agree:
FINALLY somebody out there in LW land who talks the same sense as me.

So many people on here posting that the Quadros offer no more performance than a normal GeForce and I'm disagreeing to deaf ears... or clsoed eyes.... even though I've seen the difference with my own bleeding eyes! And that's why I've used Quadros since the Quadro DCC. :)

jasonwestmas
02-19-2009, 06:12 PM
"Originally Posted by jayroth View Post
We have a strong vision for what will make LightWave CORE the best 3D app on the planet"

I like this phrase better than (Paraphrasing here) "We may not be able to compete with other 3D Apps. in every way".

mouse_art
02-19-2009, 06:16 PM
do you compare direct x or ogl in xsi?

You can't compare DX, because XSI uses OGL primary, DX is just a renderpath for Realtime Shader handling(for OGL GLSL), if you switch the viewport to DX it just shows nothing besides memory info of the GFX Card, you need first to set up RT shaders to see something. ;)

For Multiplatform Applications the first choice will allways be OGL(besides for game dev. stuff.)


I believe no big 3d App. except max(besides OGL) uses DX for app-interaction.

3D Kiwi
02-19-2009, 06:20 PM
why instancing if you cant render?

Just cause it has instancing, dosnt mean you can do everything, what about displacment, particals, charactor animation, etc. I think this is a bad move from newtek, in saying that, i think they need to do this (start lightwave from scratch), but they really needed to tell us more sooner, even screen shots of a render in core etc. To me it sounds like just a modeler and for somone who is deciding what app to use its not a good sign.

lwanmtr
02-19-2009, 06:26 PM
Jay wrote....However, we do not plan any new feature releases in the 9.x series. All the improvements that we have planned for LightWave will be offered as part of the HardCORE membership program.


Ok..does this mean that only HardCore members will get Mac-64 9.6?

Could NewTek please give us more info on that..Chilton made a really good post that it's being made..but as yet we have had no word on if it will actually be free to 9.x users (as it should be) or if we'll have to join HardCore to get it.

I love how Core seems to be getting some real improvments..I just hope it isnt just a modeler when it ships...even if I can edit millions of polys, it does me no good if I cant render them. :)

Zithen
02-19-2009, 06:31 PM
Thats my concern as well, will you be able to take a project from start to finish, eg, model, animate, render in core, or will you be forced to animate or render out of 9.6, or another app???
I appreciate the update from Newtek. But I am a bit confused as well about the modeling being the focus of Core. By saying modeling is the focus, what does that mean exactly with regards to rendering and animation? It's either a modeler primarily, or it's a complete package like LW. I think it's a good idea to focus on modeling, actually. That's very smart, for there are many advancements that can still be made in that market. But if the plan is to not have animation and rendering capabilities in Core's first version, that would be good to know. For example, will it include key frame animation of the modeling tools? Will it come with a rendering engine?

Zithen
02-19-2009, 06:33 PM
why instancing if you cant render?
There could be many uses for instancing to model. I believe many CAD modelers use instancing.

wacom
02-19-2009, 06:52 PM
It seems to me that it makes sense they start with modeling first since that is often where many people start on a project.

If they keep in mind that we'd like many modeling and deforming operations to be animatable in the future and nodal then this linear form of development for what will ultimately be a procedural application is fine.

In my limited experience modeling operations need not be only for modeling if handled correctly- they're for animation too...

Instancing IS a very important part to modeling. Just think of any repetitive part on an object. How about something as simple as the bolts on a steam punk machine? Wouldn't it be nice just to place a null or box instance where you want all of them and then model the master object and see things update as you go? Great for if the client or someone above you doesn't like the look, because you don't have to place those objects all over again. Just go into the stack- take out the parts they don't like, and work from there. The more complex the objects that are instanced, the more that you have to manually place esp. in odd angles etc., the more this is a time saver!

Another bonus is if the object is REALLY complex- you can resort to a lo-fi version in your stack or display settings to speed things back up when you don't need to view every little one of them. True you could do this with layers- but sometimes instances are a better choice.

EXOSOUL
02-19-2009, 07:23 PM
well, even tho I'm going to jump in the hardcore program, I still will like to know what are going to be the essentials in this core package. Yes, they wanted to be the best 3-D program out there, and I'll dive into the beta for various reasons.. but, that doesn't state that it will include everything from version 1. Am I going to be able to texture, light, animate, etc, etc with it? I don't want to get Core thinking is going to be a complete package and then getting another version of Modo... I want to know if is going to have a future in our pipeline, not compare it just with Modo, but also XSI and Maya ( or is this too much to ask? ). Core can't just be where the other packages are right now, they need to improve on those, and I think just telling us what are the actual plans will benefit everyone.
Why I haven't seen any renders? or videos on how the new modeling workflow works? All of this is driving away a lot of potential users, but since all we have is pics everyone is very sceptical around here. I agree that is a good thing starting with the modeling part, but assure us that it will have the rest of the package... I think that will put everyone in the same page and will stop worrying a little about the future of Core.

lwanmtr
02-19-2009, 07:46 PM
:agree:

aurora
02-19-2009, 07:50 PM
GIGA-POLY
:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:
Yeah I'm kinda happy for the first time today!!!!

ken_g9
02-19-2009, 08:15 PM
Looking good Newtek! :thumbsup:

I for one would love improvements on modeler. Though as what most have shared here, we hope we get the complete package once the final release arrives.

Awaiting for more details...

:thumbsup:

Ivan D. Young
02-19-2009, 08:40 PM
C'mon you guys, you should know that it takes years to get an app up to speed. It has the been the case for every compnay out there.

You are being totally ridiculous if you think Core would be a totally mature app at the get go release. If you seriously believe that then you are in for a big surprise about this field. It takes time for any app to reach a matue level, whether it is Maya, Photoshop, Nuke, ZBrush, or Core. Get realistic.

The biggest thing about all of this is the ability to have full access. If Core does not have what you need then maybe you could program it. The biggest news about Core is that it is extensible. For the hobbists, this does nothing. They do not have a team of programmers, tool writers, and UI specialists. This is unfortunately, the downside of Core.

Newtek has been straight forward about this, It is decision time for the casual user and hobbists and for professional users who need certain capabilites, Core may not satisfy those needs for a year or two. That is apparently where we are at. I am OK with it and many others are as well. If this does not suit you, you have a decision to make.

snsmoore
02-19-2009, 08:45 PM
Finally bought my hardcore membership today. And good timing with some news to help break open the wallet!

geothefaust
02-19-2009, 08:50 PM
C'mon you guys, you should know that it takes years to get an app up to speed. It has the been the case for every compnay out there.

You are being totally ridiculous if you think Core would be a totally mature app at the get go release. If you seriously believe that then you are in for a big surprise about this field. It takes time for any app to reach a matue level, whether it is Maya, Photoshop, Nuke, ZBrush, or Core. Get realistic.

The biggest thing about all of this is the ability to have full access. If Core does not have what you need then maybe you could program it. The biggest news about Core is that it is extensible. For the hobbists, this does nothing. They do not have a team of programmers, tool writers, and UI specialists. This is unfortunately, the downside of Core.

Newtek has been straight forward about this, It is decision time for the casual user and hobbists and for professional users who need certain capabilites, Core may not satisfy those needs for a year or two. That is apparently where we are at. I am OK with it and many others are as well. If this does not suit you, you have a decision to make.


:agree:

Ivan D. Young
02-19-2009, 09:10 PM
I would like to add that with the great LW community out there, that I would not be surprised if several folks add functionality beyond what Newtek has time to get to. That is after all the whole point of the rewrite. Some of these will be free and maybe some will have to be bought,who knows. The important thing will be you are not limited like before. very good news!

JCG
02-19-2009, 09:14 PM
This could be nothing more than a naming convention or something to prepare for the future, but the viewport view is called "Camera."

Nicolas Jordan
02-19-2009, 09:27 PM
This is what I assume about Core so far:

1. It will incorporate the same rendering technology that is present in 9.6.

2. It will have all the new rigging, joints, fiber fx technologies present in some form.

3. It will have a modern modeling environment that takes the first step in replacing modeler.

I really hope I am not wrong about any of these assumptions.

Zithen
02-19-2009, 09:34 PM
C'mon you guys, you should know that it takes years to get an app up to speed. It has the been the case for every compnay out there.

You are being totally ridiculous if you think Core would be a totally mature app at the get go release....

The biggest thing about all of this is the ability to have full access. If Core does not have what you need then maybe you could program it. The biggest news about Core is that it is extensible. For the hobbists, this does nothing. They do not have a team of programmers, tool writers, and UI specialists. This is unfortunately, the downside of Core.

Newtek has been straight forward about this, It is decision time for the casual user and hobbists and for professional users who need certain capabilites, Core may not satisfy those needs for a year or two. That is apparently where we are at. I am OK with it and many others are as well. If this does not suit you, you have a decision to make.
Interesting. I believe that is fine. But I assumed that it may indeed be, on the whole, a complete solution given its price point. I don't think it is too ridiculous to expect more out of an app that's $1400 if it just does modeling. Even if it's a $695 upgrade from LW 9.6. So that's all I wanted to get a clearer understanding of what's really being offered with Core. Whatever the end result shall become, I consider an open SDK platform to be very advantageous for developers.
I wonder, can the platform, being node based, be a platform for other applications as well, not just 3d? If so, that maybe something quite revolutionary...

Nicolas Jordan
02-19-2009, 09:37 PM
But I assumed that it may indeed be, on the whole, a complete solution given its price point. I don't think it is too ridiculous to expect more out of an app that's $1400 if it just does modeling.

:agree: I think that is what most will expect for that kind of price point.

Nicolas Jordan
02-19-2009, 09:57 PM
I am most interested in seeing what they have done with the surfacing system in Core. Have they kept the layer system for those who prefer that workflow and if they have has it been improved in any way? Is the nodal system the same or similar to 9.6 nodal? Will all the 9.x nodal shaders and materials still be present? Many questions in this area as you can see. :D

kfinla
02-19-2009, 10:05 PM
So the question is.. is LW Core 1.0 = LW 9.6 + state of the art modeler .. or is LW Core 1.0 just.. State of the art modeler + new extensible architecture.

As a Modo owner I can't help but wonder if I'm looking at another Modo 101, or 201 depending if there are large holes in the app. I can't help but see redundancy and question If I should save my money and come back in 3 years when the seeds of the new architecture are starting to bear fruit.

Since I knew they have not had enough time to re-write a brand new complete app I was curious if things would be like XSI where we would use LW 9.6 for modeling or any other short comings.

Personally I find Newtek's approach kinda funny. LW's weak point since its existence has been its animation tools, specifically character animation. Its always been this, you can't do that in LW monkey on the programs back that continues to sit there. In LW9.x we see tons of rendering improvements on an already very good system. People already know LW has a good renderer, lots of places only used LW only for this. In Core we see focus on turning a already very capable modeler into a leading one. LW Modeler was one of the best modelling tools out there years ago. LW's bad reputation comes from the weak animation toolset. Its like NT are scared to really tackle animation, HV's, dynamics, the real weak links. My point is for $99 I can buy Silo, get wings, mirai, blender.. etc and get better modeling tools. Modeling is easy to replace and supplement with other tools. The stuff I can't get a plugin for and the part pipelines are built around are the animation tools. I'm sure they have big plans, and good intentions. It just always seems put off.. they would rather make something already good, even better, than make something thats really lacking.. good and get rid of anyone's excuse not to use LW for a project.

devin
02-19-2009, 10:23 PM
I hope that they reveal enough in the next few weeks to give us a fair impression of the Q4 release well before the March 31st deadline. It's easier for me to make the upgrade decision as an individual user but I need enough information and time to pitch an upgrade for all the seats at my company. Not providing us with enough info or waiting too long could cost Newtek early adopters in addition to companies balking at the $695 upgrade price at a later date and holding out indefinitely on upgrades. I can sell my company on the cheaper upgrade path but not if I can't provide info on the return for their investment.

Maybe this isn't even an issue w/in Newtek's plan, but for now, it's definitely a concern for me.

Andrewstopheles
02-19-2009, 10:36 PM
I gotta jump in and add my name to the list of people who are concerned that this appears to be a new modeler and not a complete 3d application.
The post from Jay was very welcome, and I'm convinced that CORE is a whole new level of modeler. But Jay left out the rest (animation, rendering) and I'm guessing he knew we'd be wondering why.
I don't want to sound negative. I am coming along for the ride. But someone earlier already questioned what is the point if we can't animate and render the models? Instancing in the modeling toolset would be useful how?
I think there's more than meets the eye - I don't think NewTek wants to release a new modeler in Q4 of this year, that's just not good business sense.
So please, please tell us at least that CORE has animation tools, some CA tools and can be used to create and render 3D environments with instanced geometry. Please?
Yes, I understand that "primary focus" is what he said. It's what he didn't say that leaves me scratching my head.:stumped:

Castius
02-19-2009, 10:54 PM
Instancing and handling geometry as well as sub-d are a required structures for rendering. Even if they don't making modeler Super Duper powerful modeler. They need these features to have an effective render or animation system. Any modifying tools like bend or twist tools. Would now become animation tools as well. Plus with LWs history of wanting users to be able to start and finish a project without leaving lightwave. I don't see how it would be a bad idea for Newtek to not start with remaking modeler.

lwanmtr
02-19-2009, 11:01 PM
I think the point is that to release just a modeler would seem kind of strange...I dont think studios and such are going to look real hard at Core unless it has at least 9.6 level rendering/animation.

So...really, NewTek needs to release a more comprehensive statement about what is going to happen, what they actually plan to release Q4 and so on....I appreciate the little snippets we get, but someting a little more would be wonderful..and as others have said, most companies arent going to jump to join HC at the reduced price because there simply isnt enough information to do so.

erikals
02-19-2009, 11:10 PM
seriously, CORE will have most animation and render options like in 9.6
not including this would be nothing but foolish.

and read what Castius said about why the Modeler part gets coded first.

paulhart
02-19-2009, 11:14 PM
kfinla, good questions and puzzles. While I am very encouraged by the CORE direction, plan to go along for the ride, with all the nodal goodness, and agree that the modeler needed loving.... m*d* currently is a solid modeler and UV tool, and messiah is solid for animation, so Lightwave remains for the rendering... if messiah and m*d* step up and CORE is "mostly" a modeler (which I doubt) then Newtek will have to double time to keep in step. I would imagine, the new core will allow great potential and quicker development, but I will need to get paid for work until then, so currently I use all of the above and Blender also.... such a muddle. A solid CORE could ease these blues....
Paul

erikals
02-19-2009, 11:36 PM
...a scene total of 56,714,805 polygons

just to compare... poly limit in Maya 2008 (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=7&t=709611&highlight=1.5%207.5%201.7%20million%20million-polygon%201.5mil%20400.000), afaik, Maya 2009 is not any different.

soo,... :thumbsup: (and guys, that CORE test is on a laptop) http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/love.gif

JeffrySG
02-19-2009, 11:42 PM
I am most interested in seeing what they have done with the surfacing system in Core. Have they kept the layer system for those who prefer that workflow and if they have has it been improved in any way? Is the nodal system the same or similar to 9.6 nodal? Will all the 9.x nodal shaders and materials still be present? Many questions in this area as you can see. :D

:agree:

Well, not most interested. But very interested. :)

lwanmtr
02-19-2009, 11:48 PM
And what about the Cow primitive? still no news on that...disappointing....

kfinla
02-19-2009, 11:56 PM
seriously, CORE will have most animation and render options like in 9.6
not including this would be nothing but foolish.

and read what Castius said about why the Modeler part gets coded first.

I can totally get how the modeling toolset would be a real corner stone to build the architecture off of from an Software engineering point of view. I get that. Just for me personally as a customer modeling is the least needed part of the feature set for me and probably the least exciting use of the new architectures potential. I just can't help but feel like I'm on the luxology website from 3 years ago.

erikals
02-19-2009, 11:57 PM
And what about the Cow primitive? still no news on that...disappointing....

...i think they swapped it with a sheep http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/chchtrain2/sheep-1.gif?t=1193327744

geothefaust
02-20-2009, 12:08 AM
I can totally get how the modeling toolset would be a real corner stone to build the architecture off of from an Software engineering point of view. I get that. Just for me personally as a customer modeling is the least needed part of the feature set for me and probably the least exciting use of the new architectures potential. I just can't help but feel like I'm on the luxology website from 3 years ago.

I have a strong feeling that it's not just a modeler. :thumbsup:

They are just focusing on the modeling tools, first and foremost. This is not a problem. CORE is being developed in a modular fashion. It's not that they are making a modeling program and then tacking sh!t on later. CORE is just that, a core application, in which all foundation will be laid. Worry not!

akademus
02-20-2009, 12:35 AM
thank you for more info. Like the interface, even in an "engineer" mode :)

Wickster
02-20-2009, 12:54 AM
Wow after this post. most have have probably forgotten what about the video reveal. It was clearly stated in the video that CORE will have a combined architecture, meaning modeling and animation. So Core will be a complete package.

What I got from this post is that CORE development will be more focused on the modeling side of things. I'm thinking rewrites and "from the ground up" coding of modeler tools. Perhaps taking all the similar tools we know from the 9 series and combining them into one, either by dumping them completely and write a new one from scratch or just consolidating them through rewrite.

The point I guess is that most of the devteams work are on the modeling side. Which could mean that they already have a Layout foundation done and just now completing the modeling foundation along side it.

That's what I think at least.

Frank_Geppert
02-20-2009, 01:15 AM
Thank you, Jay Roth, for this information. This is very much appreciated.

The huge polygon count promises a lot. I hope we can see mesh sculpting and image based displacement sculpting then also.

I understand the concerns of many people. Yes, this all sounds just like the way Luxology went a few years ago. And this makes sense! It is the logical way, the evolution route you have to go. First you need the foundation, the meshes, the architecture how they are stored, produced and kept in memory. After this you can think about how you render this data.

Go on, Newtek, this is the right way. It takes time and it will expose features that we might know from other tools, but if it will be done well, robust, stable and easy to extend, then it will grow more and more.
I dont expect a revolution this year but I can imagine a natural and healthy evolution resulting in one of the best 3d apps available on the market.

Only one question remains: How will the market accept a modeler at the end of the year with a price of about $1,500. This might be too steep. But this price would be ok for a full app. Maybe the bundle of LW9.6 and Core will do the trick for new customers.

By the way: Is there an information about the 9.6 improvements for Core members? This info alone could be a good reason to enter the membership.

JBT27
02-20-2009, 02:05 AM
:agree:
FINALLY somebody out there in LW land who talks the same sense as me.

So many people on here posting that the Quadros offer no more performance than a normal GeForce and I'm disagreeing to deaf ears... or clsoed eyes.... even though I've seen the difference with my own bleeding eyes! And that's why I've used Quadros since the Quadro DCC. :)

:agree:

Much as adding one to a new system seriously ramps up the costs, I am generally inclined to carry that cost, because I know how good they are.

About a week ago, someone told me that most of my Modo problems were probably due to the card in my sig, and I am aware of those issues. I very nearly went out and bought an 8800 on that say-so.....

In fact, with the current Core info that Jay's released, and anticipating the new modelling tools (given our experience with the 9.x OBs), what I've actually decided is to not spend any more money on Modo. I have a suspicion that Core's modelling will quickly replace why I bought Modo in the first place.

But the reality is, especially now, if you can run to a Quadro....DO!!! :D

Julian.

Hayopay
02-20-2009, 02:16 AM
For now, our primary focus for LightWave CORE will be in the modeling environment. We have had so many ideas for modeling in the past....
.

so Lightwave Core is the most expensive Polygon-Modeler I know ?



LightWave CORE is the new technology engine that will eventually completely supplant the current engine.
.
eventually ?




Your mesh assets, image maps and some surfacing attributes will be accessible to LightWave CORE, but plug ins will not be.
.

some surfacing attributes ?!
have we to work in future with 3 apps? Modeler. Layouter and Core? Maybe some stuff is not able to do in Core, so we have to open Modeler to do UVs and than go to Layouter for rendering?

I am new to Lightwave, but this is confusing me a lot! Can Newtek show some examples of how they mean the Workflow is?

Nemoid
02-20-2009, 02:21 AM
Hayopay this means CORE will totally substitute Lw 9.x series at the end of its process (end 2009- start of 2010 i suppose) untill this, 9.x series will be mantained and will serve the purposes to make you work however in production.
When Core will be ready i also think 9.x will be discontinued at a certain point, just like happened to be with Softimage and XSI....

Hayopay
02-20-2009, 02:25 AM
hello Nemoid,

this:


...and modeling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year...


I understand that core 1 shipped Q4 will be for modeling!
Maybe I understand that wrong?!

Silkrooster
02-20-2009, 02:33 AM
Just because they are focusing on modeling tools, does not rule out that other portion will receive some attention. At this point of the game we all are guessing only Newtek knows what the entire game plan is.

mav3rick
02-20-2009, 02:35 AM
and you just registered to flame around ha ?

colkai
02-20-2009, 02:36 AM
I think people are reading way to much into what Jay hasn't said.
To me, primary focus means addressing a long standing problem of not being able to move forward with modeller how they would like. I find it inconceivable that CORE will not have much of what LW9.6 has if not more. I just do not see Newtek ever operating that way, if CORE was only going to be a pure modeller, I trust that they would have simply come out and said so.
No, CORE, I am sure, will be a full app but the additional revisions / features for teh likes of say C.A. and such are to be held until modeller has been given some long overdue lovin'. Being a modeller mainly, I am very happy with this.

Also, one line folks seemed to have missed, CORE will load all your current stuff except plugins, so that means, it will load scenes and textures, animations, motions, deformations, morphs. Surely it is logical therefore to assume that you can acutally do stuff with that.

I think people are wanting a little too much hand-holding and a little too much reassurance where a bit of common sense would suggest the logic, as many have pointed out.

Silkrooster
02-20-2009, 02:40 AM
No, CORE, I am sure, will be a full app but the additional revisions / features for teh likes of say C.A.


colkai,
Have you been hanging around William? Just joking, sorry couldn't resist.:D

Silkrooster
02-20-2009, 02:42 AM
I think people are reading way to much into what Jay hasn't said.
To me, primary focus means addressing a long standing problem of not being able to move forward with modeller how they would like. I find it inconceivable that CORE will not have much of what LW9.6 has if not more. I just do not see Newtek ever operating that way, if CORE was only going to be a pure modeller, I trust that they would have simply come out and said so.
No, CORE, I am sure, will be a full app but the additional revisions / features for teh likes of say C.A. and such are to be held until modeller has been given some long overdue lovin'. Being a modeller mainly, I am very happy with this.

Also, one line folks seemed to have missed, CORE will load all your current stuff except plugins, so that means, it will load scenes and textures, animations, motions, deformations, morphs. Surely it is logical therefore to assume that you can acutally do stuff with that.

I think people are wanting a little too much hand-holding and a little too much reassurance where a bit of common sense would suggest the logic, as many have pointed out.

I agree. Too many people are treating Newtek like it is newly founded company. Gotta have faith.

Hayopay
02-20-2009, 02:42 AM
hello colkai
I like to join Core, but I need the Info that brings me to do the step of purchase it!

Silkrooster
02-20-2009, 02:44 AM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/index.php

mav3rick
02-20-2009, 02:44 AM
so wait for them until you are satisfy...

JBT27
02-20-2009, 02:46 AM
I think it's clear that modelling is the initial focus. Modeler got little attention in the 9.x cycle, and it's one of the oldest and creakiest aspects of LW currently. So it makes huge sense.

What stage Core will be in at 1.0 no-one will know yet, including NT I reckon.

Considering it's a rewrite, and we still have to hear about animation in general, CA, dynamics, hair, cloth, fluids(??), volumetrics (HVs alone need an overhaul, useful though they are), shading/texturing, rendering, and all the subsets that go with all of those .....

We have 9.6, which I think everyone has to regard as the working version of LW for now, open though that might be to criticism and comment, and we are starting on the OB runs for Core, with the finished first version modelling portion coming out just under a year from now, hopefully.

I can't seriously imagine what will be included at 1.0 - despite protestations about comparing it to Modo, it may actually be highly comparable, in dev cycle, to what Lux did - Modo started as an elegant modelling app. The big difference here is that NT have a massive headstart with a rewritten renderer and a nodal shading system, and the rest.

I'd sit back and enjoy the ride, but frankly I'm thinking two or three years, at least, before Core unfolds into a fully working unified app with all the above going on .....

Julian.

Hayopay
02-20-2009, 02:49 AM
this core website I know, but it dont tell me or shows me what I can do! the infos there are not clear, is there animation in core release q4 ? and can be done more than with modo? Is the modeler better than Silo? I dont can find the informations there. This means I still want to wait till newtek gives more infos on that.

Nemoid
02-20-2009, 02:50 AM
sorry Hayopay i re read the letter and you'r right. Q9 2009 is modelling only.
Core will prolly be full ready in 3 years or so.
in the meantime we still have lw 9.6 which is not bad, however.

one thing i thought, tho, is also that if core will be able at least to import and render .mdd files since its first release, we could at least use it to render some anmation (if some rendering will be there) in the opposite case, it will be a good, but expensive modeller (not so expensive for current Lw owners , tho)

Silkrooster
02-20-2009, 02:54 AM
this core website I know, but it dont tell me or shows me what I can do! the infos there are not clear, is there animation in core release q4 ? and can be done more than with modo? Is the modeler better than Silo? I dont can find the informations there. This means I still want to wait till newtek gives more infos on that.

It is way too early to know those answers. Hopefully soon Newtek can answer them for us. But in reality no one here knows.
That being said for those of us upgrading (not sure about new users) We have something that Modo did not have when they first started. Lightwave 9.6. We have a full application to use until the Core is ready for prime time.
Like I said though I am not sure about new users if they will also receive 9.6 or just core. Hopefully Newtek will make that more clear for new users that are more than willing to jump on board at such an early stage of the process.

*Pete*
02-20-2009, 02:55 AM
CORE...modeller or just a renderer?

a few weeks ago the speculation about CORE was that it would be an external renderer that you could link together with LW, Maya and so on...
this theory was based more on lack of information than on actual information.

now the theory seems to be that CORE is a modeller only application, this is again based on lack of information than on any real information.

i have been following all betas of 9.x, and i have been reading all information about CORE that i could find...my theory is only a guess, like anyone elses, but please read it anyway.

1#
i believe CORE will be able to modell and render as good as or better than LW 9.6

2#
i believe CORE will be able to animate modelling functions, booleans and such.

3#
i believe CORE will include atleast some improvements on the CA side over the CA in 9.6.

4#
i believe CORE will have nodal surfacing, advanced cameras and lights as we know them from 9.6

5#
i believe that while NT will focus on the modeller improvements in the coming months, we will still get improvements on the renderer and animation as well, and other things.



now, ill back up my theory with how i came up with those conlusions.


during the 9.x cycle betas (and i hope im not breaking any NDA's here) it was obvious that most of the new features we got, came from CORE (it didnt have that name then)...we got some features that had to do with UV mapping, CA, subd's and other stuff that were either soon removed after concluding that they would work properly or at all in the old LW code structure, or just left there half implemented.

when we asked for instancing during the beta, one NT official said that they would not be able to implement it becouse LW lacked a unified object referencing system (sounds familiar?) that would allow it, CA tools..modelling in layout, same problem..it was all the fault of the lack of an object referencing system and the hub was not able to deal with it.

it was a strong feeling of the hub and the separation of modeller and layout being a bottleneck that stopped us from getting a lot of really cool toys.

NT, after some time decided to focus on one of the two parts of lw alone...Layout, nearly all improvements we got were layout improvements, very little on the modeller side.
now, the focus seems reversed.

does this mean that lighting, rendering, surfacing and animation will get no attention becouse all the focus will be on modelling tools?
no, it doesnt...as Jay mentioned in the beta forums, NT has specialists..some specialists in render and gi, others in modelling tools, some in surfacing, lighting..etc etc.
so even if the focus is on modeller, there is no reason for why a top talent in render and gi would start working as a mediocre talent in modelling tools.
propably CORE will develope just as 9,x did...focus on modeller instead of layout, but still with a strong layout and occasional improvements there as well.

the balance on what to improve will shift from modeller to layout, thats all.

we know fairly sure that the nodal system was made for CORE, the lights too..it makes only sence for NT to use the renderer from 9,x in CORE as well, and now...as i mentioned, with CORE (centralized, object, referensing, engine) on place, the issues of modelling in layout and the problems with instancing, animating and even surfacing should be gone.

CORE will be a beast...

im not a NT official and none of this should be taken as any sort of official word or promise, naturally...but its all based on my personal observations and some comments by NT during the beta of 9.x

if you are unsure, and you have all the right to be...wait untill core beta is released, it will cost only 100$ more for you to be certain.
if you are a serious doubter, wait untill a final version is released, will will only cost you 300$ more, which is still cheap.

i personally will join CORE in a few weeks from now,well before march 31:st.

erikals
02-20-2009, 02:55 AM
don't get it, why would they post a unified Layout/ Modeler unless you were able to doo things in Layout.

read colkai's post.
(edit: and Pete's)

mav3rick
02-20-2009, 03:04 AM
this core website I know, but it dont tell me or shows me what I can do! the infos there are not clear, is there animation in core release q4 ? and can be done more than with modo? Is the modeler better than Silo? I dont can find the informations there. This means I still want to wait till newtek gives more infos on that.

ok let me clear you some things.
core qt 4 will be modeler polished out... sometime around qt4 we will probable get other parts of core to betatest so modeling part will be production ready qt4... on what modeling will be in core lets say it is easy of use modeler with new tools that focus on gpu and multithread power and that means large amount of data to handle. it also utilize modifier stack and history stack something you do not have in modo and best of all it will work on mac, linux and x86 platform from day 1

Frank_Geppert
02-20-2009, 03:22 AM
don't get it, why would they post a unified Layout/ Modeler unless you were able to doo things in Layout.

read colkai's post.
(edit: and Pete's)

Dont worry. NT can deliver a new modeler plus 9.6 as a rendering tool. So Core does not have to come with all these features in the beginning. Maybe Core even communicates through the HUB in the beginning.

LW 9.6 gets a few new features for Core members only, it makes sense that these are communication features.

So, in any case, NT can deliver a full application for new customers although it might split into Core, Modeler and Layout for the first time.

I personally would even be happy if Core is just a full replacement for Modeler. That is realistic and good enough for Q4. Layout gets some new features also. Thus an upgrade will make sense at the end of the year for modeling and rendering though it is still split over 2 applications.

It is not that bad as some draw it here. It will be an improvement in any case.

Cageman
02-20-2009, 03:42 AM
Also, don't forget that the $395 upgradprice is also going to be avaliable next year.

So... simple math here:

I have paid $395 so far, and for that it seems I will get a modeling environment on steroids and possibly other things as well (my guess is rendering) Q4 2009. So...I pay $395 for a modeling toolset that will probably rival Modo that costs...what... $800 ?

Next year I'll pay another $395 to stay in HardCORE and also get the release of Q4 2010, which probably will be more or less a complete application.

So, in total, I'll end up paying $790 for, what I believe will be, a complete package. Compare that to paying $1400...

Add to this all the beta releases I will get my hands on, and in combination with that, my voice will be heard both regarding features as well as implementations.

HowardM
02-20-2009, 03:56 AM
Sorry, I havent followed threads regarding everyones want for a better modeller, but come on - modeller has been LWs greatest asset for years, and yes the new Renderer, AA, MB, Cams and Nodal Shading etc has been a HUGE improvement, but lets face it, LW has always lagged behind in Character Animation, overall Animation tools and of course FOR ME, a robust FX engine.

Now, youve got a great Modeler, an updated great Renderer, wouldnt it be best to now focus on Layout, Animation and FX? It just sounds like the next year will be focused on Modeling, which is foolish, and if its like Modo, means you guys wont get ANY new Animation Tools or FX for YEARS.... that is retarded.

Seems like CORE has the ability to script everything just like Maya, but why focus on Modelling... makes no sense to me why they would demo Instancing when focusing on a Modeler?! What good is that!? You need instancing in Animation and Rendering! Along those lines, who cares if you can Python the hell out of a model?! Scripting is where Maya and FX shine!

Im hoping maybe Jay will reword or ammend his post saying we are focusing on Modeler for the first few months, but by next year we plan on having a fully functioning Layout with a new FX engine and CA tools.... but of course since there is no mention of it, we can only assume there is no plans for it anytime soon.... and that is quite depressing after all this hype and reveal, after all these years of waiting....

The bottom line here guys, is that I dont rant and complain to be an anti LW troll, I've wanted NT to succeed for a loooong time and I want a great new LW,... hell I miss LW and you guys!

But please please tell us that we are not going to see CORE primarily be a modeller like Modo and take years for a new Layout... please....

*Pete*
02-20-2009, 04:10 AM
relax howard. :D

one of the biggest (perhaps only) reasons for why we didnt get new and improved CA tools in 9.X was the lack of an..*cough*CentralizedObjectReferensingEngine*coug h*...or in short, CORE.

this was also the reason we couldnt get instancing, for example...and so forth.
now that issue seems to be resolved...whether or not you will get state of the art CA tools by Q4 is unknown..propably not even NT is certain about it, but what is certain is that CORE will be able to allow advanced CA tools.

if you read my post on the previous page, you might find some hope in it, the way i see it..im no animator so none of this affects me so much, but i still wish a strong CA department in LW and it seems to me to be an underlying focus for NT even now, as it was during 9.X cycle....but, we all read the signs differently, and i could be wrong too.

hrgiger
02-20-2009, 04:26 AM
But please please tell us that we are not going to see CORE primarily be a modeller like Modo and take years for a new Layout... please....

Jay never implied such. Part of the reason CA has always been lackluster is because of it's aging codebase and slap on parts structure. I'm sure you know this. It would seem that Modo is at least part of that old codebase with some improvements. I just saw a recent thread over at Lux where Modo was giving the same error as Lightwave word for word on an error message (a pretty long winded one too). So it would seem that the only people giving you more of the same are Lux.
Core is a complete application but not all parts may be ready in time for Q4 release. This isn't an improvement to modeler, it's a whole new program and they're just starting with most of the work focused on modeler, it doesn't mean that other areas of the program wont' see attention this year, it just means there's a focus that aspect.
You're a dynamics guy, didn't you see the part about the unified dynamics environmnet (meaning that things like particles, hair, fluids, whatever) work transparently. Whether we see much or any of that for Q4, we'll just have to wait and see. But this isn't another Modo.

colkai
02-20-2009, 04:30 AM
colkai,
Have you been hanging around William? Just joking, sorry couldn't resist.:D

Heh, another to watch from me... 'jsut' trust me, you'll find it someplace :D

colkai
02-20-2009, 04:31 AM
hello colkai
I like to join Core, but I need the Info that brings me to do the step of purchase it!

Quite rightly so, hopefully over the next few weeks, there'll be more news and videos to help you decide. :)

Pete: Couldn't agree more with your five points, I'd be amazed if it were otherwise.

*Pete*
02-20-2009, 04:45 AM
Pete: Couldn't agree more with your five points, I'd be amazed if it were otherwise.

yeah...what NT has shown us about CORE has been instancing, python and insanely high polycounts.

somehow, it leads people to think that its all CORE can do, instanced colums, python scripted toruses and superhighpoly dragons.

why they think so, is becouse they are not shown things we already have in 9.6, such as renderer, nodes, bones, lights, keyframes...you name it, what is not shown is considered missing, it is not considered the same as it is in 9.6, but missing completely.

even Jays post is read between the lines..literally, between the lines, people read what is not written and take it as confirmation of their fears, even though Jay writes stuff that could be translated as if we are basically getting 9.6 on steroids, people read it as we get nothing except what is shown in videos, screenshots or directly confirmed in text.

if there has been no mention of bevel tools, we are safe to assume bevel tool will not be a part of the new application, it seems to me.

UnCommonGrafx
02-20-2009, 04:49 AM
I never understood the notion of "a foolish question".
This latest round of masturbatory speculation has prompted the following observation:
Is not from the asker. It is TO the fool that a question is asked.
Here, NewTek is thought to be The Fool.

I wonder how many legs are growing because of the pulling upon them...
A "modeler only"... Uh huh, that's what it'll be. And THAT'S all... uh huh...
The marketeers are coming, as well as the Industrial Knowledge Seekers...

So... just gonna wait on my new modeler... uh huh...From The Fools at NewTek...(not my supposition but one based on all the questions in this vein.)

dballesg
02-20-2009, 04:50 AM
Hi Jay,

I need a bit more information than that, not every detail, but a bit more.

Your post it is "cloudy" on some areas and is starting a plethora of speculation AGAIN between the users. That doesn't do any good.

So a STRAIGHT simple question:

We will have at least the existing animation tools in Layout ported to CORE at the end of the year? Include in that Bones and Character Animation tools, Dynamics, Fiber FX, Hypervoxels, etc..

At this moment with the info you posted, this are the reasons while I am only upgrading my personal license:

1.- As Cageman pointed, save money.

2.- And I really want to believe that you really will hear the users helping to shape the toolset. I know I will only found it out when I join CORE.

3.- I am impressed with the BASE you have created. Looks powerful, but sadly incomplete for the use I would give it on the office. That is why I will update only my personal license.


It seems to me that it makes sense they start with modeling first since that is often where many people start on a project.

Modelling only doesn't produce a finished product, unless you are doing ONLY that. Creating models for others. And NOW at this day there are a lot of modelling applications out there to create content.

I know those users were waiting for a modeler upgrade would be very happy.

But good applications to create animation?. We know whom owns them and I do not like their business model at all. And because it is what I want to use CORE for, those are the tools I will ask! :)


This is what I assume about Core so far:

1. It will incorporate the same rendering technology that is present in 9.6.

2. It will have all the new rigging, joints, fiber fx technologies present in some form.

3. It will have a modern modeling environment that takes the first step in replacing modeler.

I really hope I am not wrong about any of these assumptions.

I am hoping as well you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about those assumptions.

Because I do not want to wait TWO years AGAIN to have a tool set for character animation in CORE. That is the time it took to go from 9.0 to 9.6 if I remember well.

David

aliens
02-20-2009, 05:16 AM
as a modeler all is cool to me :) even if i assume core = LW 10 so lot of features will be include no?

Kuzey
02-20-2009, 05:47 AM
It's funny, when Jay makes a post it always gets people talking/posting :D

I can't wait to see more :thumbsup:

Kuzey

Nicolas Jordan
02-20-2009, 06:15 AM
CORE will load all your current stuff except plugins, so that means, it will load scenes

I haven't read anything yet where it says specifically that Core will load scene files. Jay seems to be a bit unclear about this although it does sound like we will be able to load .obj files with surface attributes and save them off from Core in the new Collada format.


Your mesh assets, image maps and some surfacing attributes will be accessible to LightWave CORE, but plug ins will not be.

Does this suggest Core will or will not be able to load old scene files from Lightwave?

aliens
02-20-2009, 06:28 AM
eh Kuzey funny post , see u on SQ ;)

"Does this suggest Core will or will not be able to load old scene files from Lightwave? "
mesh image map and surface : more about object format than scene file, as we can model, assign surface and images in modeler without switching to layout

Kuzey
02-20-2009, 06:30 AM
I think Pagnozzi might be right.

Sounds like the old surfacing layer system will be gone and it'll be all nodes or maybe the advanced, environment and shaders tabs/settings of the surface editor might not get in....just thinking.

Anyway, more information on that will be great :D

Kuzey

cresshead
02-20-2009, 06:54 AM
just to compare... poly limit in Maya 2008 (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=7&t=709611&highlight=1.5%207.5%201.7%20million%20million-polygon%201.5mil%20400.000), afaik, Maya 2009 is not any different.

soo,... :thumbsup: (and guys, that CORE test is on a laptop) http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/love.gif


just so people are CLEAR...the core model is the dragon model found on the lightwave content

it's around 27,000 polys...

THAT's what was 'imported' or 'loaded' and THEN was subdivided [not collapsed mesh...remember] to 25million polys..

most 3d apps can have quite hi poly count scenes..into the billions of polys rendered out with instances and proxies..

the live sub d models is pretty good going and does demonstrate a similar live subdivision capability to mudbox2009

just so we're playing on a level playing ground...and we've seen a 'still image' not a video of it tumbling around or someone adding a extrusion to that model...or sculpting it on video....

i'd guess that would be the next step to prove it actually is 'editable'

colkai
02-20-2009, 07:02 AM
I haven't read anything yet where it says specifically that Core will load scene files. Jay seems to be a bit unclear about this although it does sound like we will be able to load .obj files with surface attributes and save them off from Core in the new Collada format.

Ahh, my bad, apologies.
That said, I'd still be stunned if it didn't load LWS files.

erikals
02-20-2009, 07:08 AM
well, what is shown is not instancing, they are actual polys, 57 mill of them.
this is something that cannot be done in e.g. Maya, not even close.
as for Max i don't know, XSI looks to have great features though (http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=18765) (partly explains why it's so fast)

edit: read Max can reach 100 million, however, didn't say what spec. also, only one guy reached that amount, all other users were hitting the wall at around 2 million, one at 10, weird.

kfinla
02-20-2009, 07:20 AM
I thinks its confirmed Core will not load .lws files! Core will load LWO's (and take what basic surface properties that can be carried in that format), obj's.. Collada is the Core scene file format. The Core Tech FAQ from weeks ago spells that out.

Ivan D. Young
02-20-2009, 07:27 AM
Man, I think a huge chunk of the speculative and unwarranted jump the gun theories need to slow down. Just because nothing has been confirmed or denied does not mean it absolutely will not be in there. Remember folks with a completely Open SDK you can always write your own! You can always write your own! YOu can always write your own!

Folks need to seriously relax a bit. This is going, so far, very well and probably about as fast as can be done. If you can write two 3D apps simultaneously and do better for the price Newtek has done than let me know!

bobakabob
02-20-2009, 07:52 AM
Newtek do need to quickly clarify the questions about animation and rendering here as Jay's post has raised more questions than it has answered. It would be nice to read the words "character animation" for example :)

Myself, I can't believe after all the progress developing vastly improved rendering and character animation tools in LW 9 Newtek would unveil a new Modeler named "Core"!

For reassurance, Newtek have repeatedly stated that Modeler and Layout are being combined into a single app. And it does make sense to focus on modelling tools - these need to become animateable which will lead to the Holy Grail of CA in Lightwave - point manipulation in Layout. XSI and Max have had this for years!

FX have been sorely neglected, but Core will surely contain tools we're familiar with and I can imagine an explosion of plugins which should fill the gap before they're developed internally...


From the Core website:


Unification
Since the very beginning, LightWave has always been a two-headed application; one application for modeling, and a separate application for animation, shading, lighting and rendering. This is no longer the case, as LightWave CORE™ offers a unified environment. CORE™ does not distinguish between modeling, rendering, lighting and so on. Instead, LightWave CORE™ allows anything to be animated in any number of ways; keyframed animation, of course; procedural animation via scripts, expressions and so on; dynamically, in the form of a unified simulation environment. In short, anything can be driven by anything else: a water simulation could drive cloth or hair, for example, or anything else for that matter. Everything has access to everything else.

The capabilities of the LightWave CORE™ can be presented to users in a variety of different methods: in a survey of the user-base, it was clear that the split for a separate modeler vs. integrated modeler was 50/50. In the end, there was really no need to force a choice, as the environment will present these functions as desired by the user. Want to use LightWave CORE™ as just a modeler? Fine. Want to integrate modeling functions with animation? That’s fine, too. Users can decide how they would like there experience by a simple user preference setting – a dynamic setting that can be changed at any time.

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 08:10 AM
well, what is shown is not instancing, they are actual polys, 57 mill of them.
this is something that cannot be done in e.g. Maya, not even close.
as for Max i don't know, XSI looks to have great features though (http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=18765) (partly explains why it's so fast)

edit: read Max can reach 100 million, however, didn't say what spec. also, only one guy reached that amount, all other users were hitting the wall at around 2 million, one at 10, weird.

SDS limit surface polys are much lighter than 'actual polys' What they showed was 27K 'real polys' SDS'd with a limit surface of 25M. Both modo and XSI handle that no problem with good tumble and decent edit speeds. So if we're playing even with those guys, great. But we're not talking aobut 25M 'real polys'. Modo chokes on more than 4M or 5M real polys.... XSI seems to be able to handle huge numbers of real polys like that. So I'd love to see Jay 'freeze' the mesh at that SDS level and still work with it.

cresshead
02-20-2009, 08:16 AM
i had a vue scene on my old laptop [acer 1.6 gighz, 1 gig ram, 128mb ati card amd turion cpu] that had 60million polys..it 'complained abit but still rendered out the scene!

kfinla
02-20-2009, 08:19 AM
The potential of Core is awesome, NT now has the foundation to compete with Maya, XSI, Houdini perhaps. The trouble is; whether its lack of info, or the way the info has been presented you have to naturally ask "when is Core gonna be a productive tool for me?", "are we 4 years away from that point?"

NT keeps trying to show us new stuff. But a lot of concern is, have we lost a ton of functionality in the interim.

Core 1.0 could be everything 9.6 has hosted in a new architecture and a modeling re-write. If so NT should really say that.

OR

Core 1.0 could be the Modeling module of a brand new app and architecture the way Modo started out adding modules with each release with some token rendering and animation systems in the interim.

cresshead
02-20-2009, 08:26 AM
SDS limit surface polys are much lighter than 'actual polys' What they showed was 27K 'real polys' SDS'd with a limit surface of 25M. Both modo and XSI handle that no problem with good tumble and decent edit speeds. So if we're playing even with those guys, great. But we're not talking aobut 25M 'real polys'. Modo chokes on more than 4M or 5M real polys.... XSI seems to be able to handle huge numbers of real polys like that. So I'd love to see Jay 'freeze' the mesh at that SDS level and still work with it.

yeah seems about the same as mudbox 2009 on the face of it..though we've seen mudbox on video sculpting those 25million polys in realtime...the lightwave core shot is just that...a still image...love to see that dragon rotated and moved in a video...and edited with polys being moved or extruded.

would good to see a side by side comparison with lightwave modeler and core...
like what max 8 and max 9 did a few years back
http://download.autodesk.com/global/3dsmax/featureVideos/max9_poly_speed_medium.mov

kfinla
02-20-2009, 08:31 AM
SDS limit surface polys are much lighter than 'actual polys' What they showed was 27K 'real polys' SDS'd with a limit surface of 25M. Both modo and XSI handle that no problem with good tumble and decent edit speeds. So if we're playing even with those guys, great. But we're not talking aobut 25M 'real polys'. Modo chokes on more than 4M or 5M real polys.... XSI seems to be able to handle huge numbers of real polys like that. So I'd love to see Jay 'freeze' the mesh at that SDS level and still work with it.

That was my feeling too. That dragon model is actually pretty light poly-wise and simple. Its just been sub-divided to hell. I'd rather see a zbrush obj thats in the millions of polys being tumbled and worked on.

Skonk
02-20-2009, 08:32 AM
My guess is that they simply CANT show us all the things we want to see because the functions required to allow them to dont yet exist.

The core is there, the foundation has been put down but the tools required to make use of it are not in place yet and Newtek dont know how many of those tools they can implement before the Q4 deadline.

They may find development goes quicker than expected and you end up with almost a full solution, or development may hit some snags and get delayed and you end up with nothing more than a modeller.

It's clear if everything goes according to Newtek's plans then the package will only be complete by inclusion of Lightwave 9.6 (+ some tweaks) to fill in the holes in Core's toolset.

Kuzey
02-20-2009, 08:33 AM
Core 1.0 could be the Modeling module of a brand new app and architecture the way Modo started out adding modules with each release with some token rendering and animation systems in the interim.

That would be a mistake...I would think :hey:

I think the render engine being the newest part of LW 9.6, they must have worked the features into the Core during the last two years with new and fresh code. After all, they have worked on both the Core and 9x series at the same time...so, I don't see why they couldn't work on two versions of the render engine as well :hey:

But it would be better to see it in the next round of screenshots/videos, or the question will still be unanswered.

Kuzey

dee
02-20-2009, 08:36 AM
well, what is shown is not instancing, they are actual polys, 57 mill of them.

"This screen illustrates a sample of instancing in CORE." I think It's one dragon object with 8 millon polys and 6 instances of it.

Andyjaggy
02-20-2009, 08:38 AM
i had a vue scene on my old laptop [acer 1.6 gighz, 1 gig ram, 128mb ati card amd turion cpu] that had 60million polys..it 'complained abit but still rendered out the scene!

That's nothing, I had a Vue scene with 18 billion polys. Rendered just fine.

Well I would suggest to everyone that if you wouldn't be happy with just a modeler, you might want to hold off on Core. Of coarse if it is just a modeler I am sure it will be bundled with 9.6 as well so that you can actually do something with your models.

1500 is an awful lot for just a modeling package, when you can pick up Maya for 2000.

If NT changes the way the surfacing and texturing works I will be very upset. That is one of my most favorite things about Lightwave.

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 08:46 AM
"This screen illustrates a sample of instancing in CORE." I think It's one dragon object with 8 millon polys and 6 instances of it.

I thought that was obvious.... Did anyone think they had 57M real polys visible there? It's 27K SDS'd to 8M limit surface x 6 instances.

Andrewstopheles
02-20-2009, 08:47 AM
Well I have to admit from my POV that I can't NOT purchase HC membership before March 31st and take advantage of the special pricing and, more importantly, to get my T-Shirt.
I fully agree that Modeler should be first priority and have no complaints about that.
What is a concern is that I might end up with a great new modeler and no ability to animate with it. Not 3 years from now, but by Q4's release of LWCORE 1.0.
I am going to have to take my chances and put my faith in Newtek. I don't have a problem with that - I bought in at 9.0 when XSI was looking real strong for $600 (Foundation) but I had a good feeling about NewTek and the Community (you guys!) so I spent more and got a "complete" 3D package. I have absolutely no regrets or complaints about that.
I still want to know, I must know, more about CORE and what my expectations should be. I would hate to have a 27 million polygon/subd object that I can't use. I can get by with 9.6 no problem, I just want to see an improvement in what I can do with the software beyond what 9.6 can do right now, and for buying in early on faith and speculation I bet (literally) I will be rewarded with a great app.
A few words from Jay Roth would silence us "speculators". Or maybe not hehe!

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 08:48 AM
That's nothing, I had a Vue scene with 18 billion polys. Rendered just fine.

Once you have proper instancing and a renderer setup for them (buckets) these render numbers become somewhat meaningless. We know core has instancing, great! Now show us the performance with non sds geometry. :)

kfinla
02-20-2009, 08:51 AM
That would be a mistake...I would think :hey:

I think the render engine being the newest part of LW 9.6, they must have worked the features into the Core during the last two years with new and fresh code. After all, they have worked on both the Core and 9x series at the same time...so, I don't see why they couldn't work on two versions of the render engine as well :hey:

But it would be better to see it in the next round of screenshots/videos, or the question will still be unanswered.

Kuzey

I wishfully agree. I'm one of those ppl that think Core and LW 9.x are just different containers for the same systems. Why throw away all the rendering tech. My hope is LW 9.x was just a port of what could be brought over from Core. And now they have the infrastructure to make radical improvements.

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 08:58 AM
I wishfully agree. I'm one of those ppl that think Core and LW 9.x are just different containers for the same systems. Why throw away all the rendering tech. My hope is LW 9.x was just a port of what could be brought over from Core.

I personally don't want to see this. There is so many things that the renderer would benefit from a 'full redo' much like the base architecture. Buckets, per bucket rendertime geometry creation, tiled texture loading per bucket, micropoly displacement, per poly ray limits, importance sampling througout, new AA methods built around independent geometry AA and shading sampling, proper linear workflow in the rendering pipe, a scene description format like .RIB, .MI, or modo's tableau that could eventually be leveraged by other apps... lots of stuff. I don't want to see 9.6's renderer crammed into core. That's the last thing I want. Let's redo it right this time, much like modelling, even if we have to wait. Until then freeze your mesh out of core and load it to 9.6 for rendering.

Honestly the same goes for everything else in 9.6 layout. I don't want any of that crammed into core (new joints, particlefx..). Let's take the best ideas out there today on all these subjects and build them in at the base level.

erikals
02-20-2009, 09:05 AM
I thought that was obvious.... Did anyone think they had 57M real polys visible there? It's 27K SDS'd to 8M limit surface x 6 instances.

whoops!
here i was, thinking just that,... that's what happens when not reading the lines properly.
well,... as it is on a laptop i assume it can reach way higher than 25 million though.
darnit.

SDS limit surface polys are much lighter than 'actual polys'
shoot. :( thought they were the same.

umf, well, let's see how fast plain polys can be tweaked then...

kfinla
02-20-2009, 09:11 AM
My answer was too generalized :). I guess I mean I would hope they don't have to throw everything away. Actually I have voiced the desire to see a Bucket renderer in LW. It seems the only way shy of running LW 64 with 32 gigs of ram. We'll have to wait and see.

erikals
02-20-2009, 09:17 AM
i'm unsure about all this Core thingey now.
if all i get is another Modeler, then i'm definetly on the fence about it all.
guess many other ppl here feel the same way.

aidanodr
02-20-2009, 09:18 AM
Guys,

Has it been answered anywhere yet - when you join Hardcore is a build of the Core app available yet?

Might sound odd - but I reckon I will drop my $395 when the above is so. Probably because it will feel good getting a tangible item ... that horrible modern shopping disease "Instant Gratification" :)

Aidan

GandB
02-20-2009, 09:20 AM
It sounds like it'd be a good idea for me just to wait to upgrade to Core in a year or two then...once things have actually come together. I'm sure (judging from past experience) there will be various promotions for LW 9.6 users to come on board anyways. ;)

Maybe by then NT will stop glossing over the game devs and see what kind of a market they're missing out on. I can get a good Collada export for free now with TrueSpace 7.6 anyways.

-Keith

Skonk
02-20-2009, 09:24 AM
Guys,

Has it been answered anywhere yet - when you join Hardcore is a build of the Core app available yet?

Might sound odd - but I reckon I will drop my $395 when the above is so. Probably because it will feel good getting a tangible item ... that horrible modern shopping disease "Instant Gratification" :)

Aidan

There is no build yet, and it's not likely to happen for a good 5 or 6 weeks.

aidanodr
02-20-2009, 09:28 AM
There is no build yet, and it's not likely to happen for a good 5 or 6 weeks.

Thank you Skonk, I reckon if newtek mention that some sort of build is now available with Hardcore they will increase the subscriptions .. I suppose its Human Nature!

Aidan

Skonk
02-20-2009, 09:31 AM
Thank you Skonk, I reckon if newtek mention that some sort of build is now available with Hardcore they will increase the subscriptions .. I suppose its Human Nature!

Aidan

Well it was slated for "Q1" which means they can go up to the end of march before they technically miss the deadline. But it's also been pointed out that it was more of a "hope" to have a build by then and not a deadline, promise or guarentee.

Ember
02-20-2009, 09:32 AM
Newtek has been criticized before about giving too early promises on what they'll deliver and then not fullfilling those promises until years later. Now people are complaining that they aren't promising enough? Try to decide already guys! :)

Seriously, I think Newtek is being very careful on what they'll be promising into Core 1.0 release so that they won't end up into same situation as they did with 9.x cycle and too early promises.

And about the coming features in Core, as a developer myself I might have some insight into this. Most of the 'cool' stuff in 3d-applications are created through algorithms made for that specific purpose and those algorithms are used by the main application (or feature, plugin etc) to achieve what we see on the application itself. Even if Newtek had done it's job badly and hadn't kept Core in it's mind all the time while developing 9.x they would be able to reuse most of these algorithms (and if they aren't, then I'm in shock). Algorithms such as these are the most tedious part of creating these features. Rest is just glue which keeps it together. So what I'm trying to say here, is that they should be able to reuse the old 9.x code to some extent in Core. It all depends on their approach to implementing these features and as far as I've understood, these guys are fans of OOP (Object Oriented Programming) where reuse and modularization are key principles...

So, truth to be told. I'd be ready to buy the following scenario:

Rendering engine and other new features in 9.x have been made primarily with Core in mind and only as secondary with 9.x. Thus the new features have been made to talk with 9.x by creating specific wrappers which allow either full access to the new feature's potential or restricted if the old 9.x wouldn't be able to use it (instancing features in renderer for example). This approach would allow for dual development of two different applications with one being the primary target and the second being secondary. Both applications would benefit this way but the primary one would get the most out of it.

Pete mentioned some stuff out of the beta forums, like stuff appearing and then being pulled back and never appearing into 9.x. This reveal supports my theory and if you think about it, it's the only logical way of doing such a dual development effort. Anything else would be foolish.

As a developer and a software architect myself, this is the way *I* would have made it. I'm just hoping Newtek has been thinking the same way as I. Currently all the evidence seems to support they have.

Larry_g1s
02-20-2009, 09:35 AM
hello Nemoid,

this:


I understand that core 1 shipped Q4 will be for modeling!
Maybe I understand that wrong?!He said FOCUS! Not solely, or only.

colkai
02-20-2009, 09:53 AM
~~ This approach would allow for dual development of two different applications with one being the primary target and the second being secondary. Both applications would benefit this way but the primary one would get the most out of it. ~~

~~if you think about it, it's the only logical way of doing such a dual development effort. Anything else would be foolish.~~

As a developer and a software architect myself, this is the way *I* would have made it. I'm just hoping Newtek has been thinking the same way as I. Currently all the evidence seems to support they have.

I tend to agree, it would be a crazy oversight from a developers POV if this wasn't the case. The code I'm working on now is, in theory, for one instance only, but always I think of if it may be called elsewhere, one has to believe anyone who has any level of time coding will operate on the sort of basis.
I would be horrified and dismayed if Newtek were doing anything less than you've described, to think they would I feel isn't giving them anywhere near enough credit.

erikals
02-20-2009, 09:59 AM
you know, reading again, that post really doesn't say much.
it shows 25 million polys, that we don't know how behave.

i'm in the middle of nowhere here, what did that post actually show as far as new features...?

nothing. http://erikalstad.com/smiley/Notsatisfied.gif

Andyjaggy
02-20-2009, 10:03 AM
I know nothing about programming but that makes sense to me. All that work they did on the 9.6 rendering engine would be a waste if they couldn't reuse the main functionality.

The algorithms for the new GI engine and raytracing and lighting. It would seem crazy if they didn't design those with the ultimate goal of being able to reuse them.

Andyjaggy
02-20-2009, 10:05 AM
you know, reading again, that post really doesn't say much.
it shows 25 million polys, that we don't know how behave.

i'm in the middle of nowhere here, what did that post actually show as far as new features...?

nothing. http://erikalstad.com/smiley/Notsatisfied.gif

Yeah pretty much. I don't think there really are any features yet. They certainly didn't model the dragon in core anyway. :) It's going to be a long road, you just have to choose if you want to be on the ride or not I guess.

If they really aren't going to reuse anything, and it is all going to be created completely from scratch then we are probably going to be looking at a similar development time as Modo. If that's the case, if I'm going to have to wait another 5 years to get a full featured app I'll probably just go with Modo which is all ready half way there.

But who can really say at this point. We have no idea how fast they can develop with the foundation they have made. Plus the full SDK is available to everyone....... so you will see a host of awesome plugins for Core probably pretty quickly. But who knows it's all a guessing game at this point. I'll probably dive in for the moment, I keep going back and forth but in the end I'll probably do it.

Sarford
02-20-2009, 10:12 AM
it shows 25 million polys, that we don't know how behave.

Would you think they showed us this new subD stuff like "Look, we can now have 25 mil polies on screen, but.. the.. handling.. is.. dead.. slow.."?
That doesn't make any sense, does it? That would absolutely bite NT in the back, hard! I think NT is well aware of the other aplications out there and how they behave. To make a gigapoly subD system that can't be handled.. I think NT is smarter than that.

And just a side note on the instanced dragons. What you saw wasn't a render, it was the viewport (as far as I could tell), so I think those 56mil polies were onscreen, instancing propably doesn't do much for your framebuffer.

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 10:17 AM
And just a side note on the instanced dragons. What you saw wasn't a render, it was the viewport (as far as I could tell), so I think those 56mil polies were onscreen, instancing propably doesn't do much for your framebuffer.

openGl does instancing just fine. To test I just made 400 copies of a 1.6M SDS teapot in modo in the viewport, 680M polys in a GL view. :)

Larry_g1s
02-20-2009, 10:18 AM
you know, reading again, that post really doesn't say much.
it shows 25 million polys, that we don't know how behave.

i'm in the middle of nowhere here, what did that post actually show as far as new features...?

nothing. http://erikalstad.com/smiley/Notsatisfied.gifWell, I'd ask you this...is that what you just described possible in the present version of LW? I doubt that Jay pulled in such a high poly model to just show that CORE can only import such a model.

cagey5
02-20-2009, 10:19 AM
Well it shows instancing which is new. It also shows that it's obviously in modelling mode because of the tools available, but also set in a scene with one perspective camera and one directional light. A unified product in other words.

But tes, it would have been nice to see how it handled in a video.

DennisVR
02-20-2009, 10:19 AM
I would be surprised if LW Core was a modeler only. How hard can it be to reuse LW 9.6 code in LW Core ? Especially non-UI related stuff.

Have a little faith ;)

Wickster
02-20-2009, 10:26 AM
Hmm, looking at it from a different persective, LW 9.6 could be using some of LW CORE's tech already. :)

Auger
02-20-2009, 10:35 AM
Newtek has been criticized before about giving too early promises on what they'll deliver and then not fullfilling those promises until years later. Now people are complaining that they aren't promising enough? Try to decide already guys! :)

Seriously, I think Newtek is being very careful on what they'll be promising into Core 1.0 release so that they won't end up into same situation as they did with 9.x cycle and too early promises.

And about the coming features in Core, as a developer myself I might have some insight into this. Most of the 'cool' stuff in 3d-applications are created through algorithms made for that specific purpose and those algorithms are used by the main application (or feature, plugin etc) to achieve what we see on the application itself. Even if Newtek had done it's job badly and hadn't kept Core in it's mind all the time while developing 9.x they would be able to reuse most of these algorithms (and if they aren't, then I'm in shock). Algorithms such as these are the most tedious part of creating these features. Rest is just glue which keeps it together. So what I'm trying to say here, is that they should be able to reuse the old 9.x code to some extent in Core. It all depends on their approach to implementing these features and as far as I've understood, these guys are fans of OOP (Object Oriented Programming) where reuse and modularization are key principles...

So, truth to be told. I'd be ready to buy the following scenario:

Rendering engine and other new features in 9.x have been made primarily with Core in mind and only as secondary with 9.x. Thus the new features have been made to talk with 9.x by creating specific wrappers which allow either full access to the new feature's potential or restricted if the old 9.x wouldn't be able to use it (instancing features in renderer for example). This approach would allow for dual development of two different applications with one being the primary target and the second being secondary. Both applications would benefit this way but the primary one would get the most out of it.

Pete mentioned some stuff out of the beta forums, like stuff appearing and then being pulled back and never appearing into 9.x. This reveal supports my theory and if you think about it, it's the only logical way of doing such a dual development effort. Anything else would be foolish.

As a developer and a software architect myself, this is the way *I* would have made it. I'm just hoping Newtek has been thinking the same way as I. Currently all the evidence seems to support they have.

I hope your thoughts are correct. I know very little about programming, but isn't it a pretty big deal to go from the C in LW9.6 to the C++ in Core?

Ember
02-20-2009, 10:38 AM
I hope your thoughts are correct. I know very little about programming, but isn't it a pretty big deal to go from the C in LW9.6 to the C++ in Core?

C++ is backwards compatible with C. This one of the greatest advantages and disadvantages of C++, since it allows you to use the two languages in parallel but it also brings some of the problems in C to C++. The wrapper I was talking about in my post would work in reverse way to the wrapper LightWolf created for LW SDK (C++ version), only more specific and no need to concentrate on reuse and generalization (thus, faster to implement).

So, not so big a deal. It only needs extensive knowledge of both systems and THAT we can trust Newtek has :)

Auger
02-20-2009, 10:42 AM
C++ is backwards compatible with C. This one of the greatest advantages and disadvantages of C++, since it allows you to use the two languages in parallel but it also brings some of the problems in C to C++. The wrapper I was talking about in my post would work in reverse way to the wrapper LightWolf created for LW SDK (C++ version), only more specific and no need to concentrate on reuse and generalization (thus, faster to implement).

So, not so big a deal. It only needs extensive knowledge of both systems and THAT we can trust Newtek has :)

Cool! Thanks for the info.

The Dommo
02-20-2009, 10:50 AM
:agree:

Much as adding one to a new system seriously ramps up the costs, I am generally inclined to carry that cost, because I know how good they are.

About a week ago, someone told me that most of my Modo problems were probably due to the card in my sig, and I am aware of those issues. I very nearly went out and bought an 8800 on that say-so.....

In fact, with the current Core info that Jay's released, and anticipating the new modelling tools (given our experience with the 9.x OBs), what I've actually decided is to not spend any more money on Modo. I have a suspicion that Core's modelling will quickly replace why I bought Modo in the first place.

But the reality is, especially now, if you can run to a Quadro....DO!!! :D

Julian.

Sure, it's extra cost - but you don't have to pay full price....
We bought 2 x Quadro FX 5500 when they were new. Prices should have been £1,600-2,000 over here.

Bought them brand new off eBay from a US seller, about £750 each.

Lucky for us, Customs & Excise inspected them and obviously didn't know what they really were.... they applied 17.5% VAT charge to the packages, but rated the cards at £100 each !! mwahahahaa

kfinla
02-20-2009, 10:50 AM
I'm just curious what NT's roadmap/plans are. Some people like the idea of Core being a complete re-write and stuff being done at the state of the art, with the price being several years for an end to end app.

Others want Core 1.0 to be an end to end app which would only be possible by recycling from old LW 9.6 code.

There are a few ways to do things, Softimage went dark for 3 or 4 years and came out with XSI, which still had no polymodeling tools at that point. They bundled Soft 3.9 with it. NT has tried to lessen this by developing Core for two years alongside LW 9.x.

What I'm hoping is possible, is; Each section of Core (model, animate, render, dynamics etc) is an independent module. Year by year each piece is re-written and replaces the 9.6 tech that is currently there so that the app is always complete. This may not be possible, can a new module work with an old one? but this would seem like the least destructive path to totally re-write an app without losing huge amounts of functionality, or disappearing from the market for several more years till you have everything in place. For now the first re-written module is Modeling.

dballesg
02-20-2009, 10:57 AM
Remember folks with a completely Open SDK you can always write your own! You can always write your own! YOu can always write your own!

Well I will ask you on the CORE forums to write an IK Solver when they publish the first build of CORE :devil: Ah, and bone editing tools, and motions modifiers, and... :devil:


I personally don't want to see this. I don't want to see 9.6's renderer crammed into core. That's the last thing I want. Let's redo it right this time, much like modelling, even if we have to wait. Until then freeze your mesh out of core and load it to 9.6 for rendering.

Uh? A 8,102,115 polygons dragon rigged and animated on 9.6??? I do not think so.


Honestly the same goes for everything else in 9.6 layout. I don't want any of that crammed into core (new joints, particlefx..).

Me neither, but you can not freeze a mesh so dense on CORE and intend to rig and animate it on 9.6. Simply it would choke to dead.


Let's take the best ideas out there today on all these subjects and build them in at the base level.

Looks like that it's what they would do. But only on the modelling part during the first year!! :thumbsdow


Newtek has been criticized before about giving too early promises on what they'll deliver and then not fullfilling those promises until years later. Now people are complaining that they aren't promising enough? Try to decide already guys! :)

If I am asking, it's is because it would cripple CORE functionality (at least to me) if we do not get character animation tools at least to the same level they are now on 9.6.


Seriously, I think Newtek is being very careful on what they'll be promising into Core 1.0 release so that they won't end up into same situation as they did with 9.x cycle and too early promises.

That is true, maybe they prefer to give us less information and surprise us later. But some people will base their jump to the CORE side of the fence, based on the information available. And at this points some things are still a bit unclear.

David

Snosrap
02-20-2009, 11:06 AM
It would really suck to be a new user of Lightwave when Core ships! Imagine the confusion of installing 9.6 and then installing Core and trying to figure out where to begin. Most of us have been longtime users and know our way around. We may very much feel at home modeling in Core and animating and rendering in 9.6. But to the poor sap just getting started my thoughts and prayers go out to them. IMHO a marketing, customer relations and customer support nightmare. I would love to think Core would be complete to the levels of 9.6 once it ships in Q4, but as most of you know this is complicated stuff and I just don’t see it happening. NT did state that they would have a parallel development, so they are letting us help them with that development if we decide to do so which I think is a smart idea. (What user would have ever let the Shader Tree make it into modo?) So I applaud NT for allowing it’s users to have a say in the molding of Core. (Course they also get some funding for the project as well). I’m still on the fence, but leaning towards HardCore over 401. (Hate that shader tree!)

Cheers
Snosrap

jayroth
02-20-2009, 11:16 AM
I thinks its confirmed Core will not load .lws files! Core will load LWO's (and take what basic surface properties that can be carried in that format), obj's.. Collada is the Core scene file format. The Core Tech FAQ from weeks ago spells that out.

Actually, no, that is not confirmed at all. The issue with LWS files are the plug-ins are not going to work in CORE. So, its better to say that LWS files will be partially supported, though to what extent we cannot yet say.

The reason we cannot say are simple: we are still working on it.

For the last year or more, I have made clear statements about how things are going to break, especially plug ins, so this information should come as no surprise. And, given that LWS files can be very plug-in heavy, the assumption that CORE wouldn't be able to read them is understandable. However, as I stated, we will have limited support for LWS files in CORE. I will comment with more details once I have them.

Jirapong
02-20-2009, 11:25 AM
Jay, thanks for the more info.
However, the more reveal, the more I have to think twice on jointing the HD club.
Modeler only? So, what am I gonna do for my rendering? Using Layout 9.6? How the two will communicate each other, lie what is now between Modeler and Layout or just one way from Core to Layout?
Well, the first Core will be modeler only. For me it would mean new modeler with less learning curve for play until things, rendering, animating ready. And when? not for Q4 2009.

Larry_g1s
02-20-2009, 11:30 AM
Jay, thanks for the more info.
However, the more reveal, the more I have to think twice on jointing the HD club.
Modeler only? So, what am I gonna do for my rendering? Using Layout 9.6? How the two will communicate each other, lie what is now between Modeler and Layout or just one way from Core to Layout?
Well, the first Core will be modeler only. For me it would mean new modeler with less learning curve for play until things, rendering, animating ready. And when? not for Q4 2009.Where does he say Modeler ONLY?!?! Guys, read! He said they need to start somewhere and they've chosen Modeling tools first. He has said anymore then that, and people make assumptions.

jasonwestmas
02-20-2009, 11:31 AM
Jay, thanks for the more info.
However, the more reveal, the more I have to think twice on jointing the HD club.
Modeler only? So, what am I gonna do for my rendering? Using Layout 9.6? How the two will communicate each other, lie what is now between Modeler and Layout or just one way from Core to Layout?
Well, the first Core will be modeler only. For me it would mean new modeler with less learning curve for play until things, rendering, animating ready. And when? not for Q4 2009.

I think the only thing for sure is that Modeler will be the main focus for Q4.

adamredwoods
02-20-2009, 11:34 AM
Screenshots look great! Thanks for sharing NewTek!

jayroth
02-20-2009, 11:54 AM
For those who need clarification:

The Q1 release of CORE is focusing on the CORE modeling toolset. That focus is due, in part, to the lack of attention that Modeler had received during the last couple of revisions, as stated. It is also due to the fact that we need the atoms to be in place in order to animate them. The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now, and those that will be activated soon, are required as a foundation for animation, which will be activated sometime after the Q1 release (keep reading).

Will there be features in the Q1 release that are not modeling-specific? Yes; as you have seen we are showing a light in the outline panel, as well as a camera. That said, implementation of these particular features will be very limited in scope for the Q1 release.

After the initial Q1 releases, we will have subsequent releases that fix whatever bugs are in the Q1 release, as well as activate new features and refine workflows, change nomenclature as determined, and so on. Much like the way open beta worked, we will pursue the process for HardCORE in a similar manner. The planned Q4 release will be considered the final 1.0 version of the product.

The feature set for the final Q4 release has not yet been set, and it would be irresponsible for me to offer conjecture about it at this time. Some of you have pointed out that the reasons we are holding back on this is due to our experiences learned during the LightWave v9.x series, and you would be correct. Some of those who are insisting on a final feature list now are the same people who criticized the fact that certain features did not make the cut in LightWave v9.x. In all cases, those features failed due to the aging architecture of that series.

I can say, with certainty, that the Q4 release will not have all of the features of LightWave v9.6. In many cases, CORE will offer features beyond those of LightWave v9.6, but not in all cases. LightWave v9.6 was made very robust and feature rich in anticipation of a transition period between the old and new technologies. What CORE will not address in the Q4 time frame is addressed by the original LightWave, and as much as we can, CORE will offer a good interchange with the original LightWave.

LightWave CORE is the way to the future. As it is a completely new architecture, it is going to take awhile to get everything online. In some cases, features will have evolved to the point that there will be no need for an analogous feature from the original LightWave.

For those wondering just what CORE is capable of, I speak to that in the video. Note that I am speaking about the capabilities of the CORE design, and in doing so, I am making forward looking statements; do not take these statements as a guarantee of specific features by specific dates by themselves. As we move closer to our target dates, we will be discussing the specific feature sets.

If this isn't good enough for you to join HardCORE today, then don't. No one is twisting your arms to do so. If you do decide to join, you will enjoy an interchange with our team along the lines that have been demonstrated in the last few days in the HardCORE forum, an experience that I have found to be very enjoyable.

For those of you who are taking a "wait and see" attitude, I have no trouble with that perspective at all. I merely ask you to keep in mind, as you issue your opinions, that we are building what you have always asked of us. It is a big, job, and an incredible step by NewTek to do this. Some of you will get your feature wishes fulfilled by the Q4 release, and some of you will not, so be prepared for that, and consider that before you buy into HardCORE. Make your decision with your eyes opened; that is the whole purpose of both the statement I made at the beginning of this thread, and the same purpose for the statement that you are reading right now.

In the end, I think that most of you will be very happy with CORE; it's just a matter of when.

jin choung
02-20-2009, 11:58 AM
THE GOOD:

1. 25 million polys would be awesome but like mike rb says, i would like to see the mesh frozen and would also like ballparks on fps on editing and tumbling... i want to know how good "pretty good" is.

but it looks very promising and it looks like it's going to blow the previous iteration of lw out of the water. they didn't have to go low tech soviet to give it to us either. awesome.

2. python scripting in every field... that's fantastic. we have "super set driven key" right out of the gate. (mentioned in premiere vid, forgot to mention it before).

3. breaks all plugins. good. that tells us the extent to which the infrastructure has been redone - if the vids weren't proof enough. also good because it clarifies for people exactly what will NOT be. there has been all kinds of confused statements on what core will and will not do since the release... and that continues in this thread, amplified by the statements in op... which leads me to:

THE BAD:

1. core 1.0 is modeler only. i know i know. he didn't say that. but i'm just taking away the "ish"... i'm just taking away the qualifiers.... the sad confusing qualifiers that raise more questions than it answers.

taking out the buffer and cushion words, it looks like we're pulling a modo. first releases will be modeler only.

which was my uncomfortable suspicion ever since i noticed that there was no timeline in the premiere video. let me say that again - THERE IS NO TIMELINE VISIBLE in the premiere video.

also, if you look at the menus as they currently exist, which cresshead was good enough to wade through and break down for us, what is there now is all modeler.

sure, there could be a mode that is not being shown us. but considering what we've seen and what we've heard, it's easier for me to think that there's just NOTHING THERE YET.

THE UGLY:

core is the next version of lw. lw, is a complete app modeling, animation, render.

if core 1.0 is only (or mostly) going to be a new modeler, it should properly be called core .5

and they should be extremely clear on what we're getting for what is now being termed 1.0. as you can see from everyone asserting their fervent belief that 1.0 will be animation, and render as well as modeling, the expectation for a complete app was a foregone conclusion.

IF IT IS NOT THE CASE, THEY MUST MAKE THIS CLEAR. at least before march 31st.

THE UNDERSTANDABLE:

they've been at this for two years they've said. some people have expected the world from that. i did not. it comes as absolutely NO SURPRISE to me that core would not be a complete app out of the gate.

but again, where newtek falls flat on its face is PROPERLY CALIBRATING EXPECTATIONS... managing expectations and BEING CLEAR.

from what is written by some here, it looks like there's going to be a contingent that will go core if it's nothing but screenshots and notepad. so clarity will not lose them. but lack of clarity and AMBIGUITY leads to a lot of frustration for most.

if they said they are starting with modeler for a few versions and then add on in coming versions, that would have been totally understandable.

but now we have ambiguity and fanboys vs. gadflys in the wake. again.

ack.

anyway, i have no problem with their state of development or their speed of development. the did a total tear down and they're starting with modeler. AWESOME. that's exactly what i would have done! KUDOS!!!

what i DO have an issue with is a lack of clarity on what 1.0 will be.

will this be MODO 1.0 or will this be MAYA/XSI 1.0 (i.e. a complete app)?

jin

p.s. hi guys!

p.s.2. from way back... why incorporate fiberfx for 9.6 if new lw will break it? that was my red herring for what 10 would be.

jin choung
02-20-2009, 12:00 PM
jay beat me to it. good. clarification. thanks jay.

q4 final feature set may not be a good thing to promise... but WHAT IS THE PLAN? WHAT DO YOU INTEND?

and also, q4 aside, what is 1.0 deliverable? if you have a PLAN for 1.0, you can just develop until you get there. q4 or not. why slave yourself to q4 when you should be slaving yourself to a promised/planned featureset for 1.0?

why not have a 1.0 featureset laid out and work till you hit that and not call 1.0 until you get to your target 1.0? sticking to q4 as some hallowed stop point instead of aiming for a planned featureset makes this more like a dreaded subscription.

jin

Ivan D. Young
02-20-2009, 12:03 PM
Hey buddy boy welcome back!:thumbsup:
Glad you made it to the party!

Larry_g1s
02-20-2009, 12:03 PM
Thanks again Jay. I think it's important to clarify like this because too many people want to jump to conclusions. I appreciate you straight forward & honest approach.

Good to see you back Jin. ;)

Andyjaggy
02-20-2009, 12:04 PM
Yay Jin is back. Glad he didn't get all offended and decide to leave for good. :)

Okay I think I am in, and wouldn't you know it I just started a little project that I bid $395 for. Perfecto.

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 12:09 PM
Thanks for the info Jay. So animation activated post 1.0. Good to know. That frames what scope you are working within nicely. Looking forward to seeing more.

Ivan D. Young
02-20-2009, 12:11 PM
OK, I hope everyone will read Jay's statements and not jump to conclusions.

Anyone that thought Core was going to be a Complete app from the get go, has their expectations too high. I could cite numerous reasons, but regardless it is a huge task and they have to start somewhere.

There is a lot of time between now and Q4, we do not even have a beta version 0 to use and work with yet. All of these crazy premature notions are unproductive and unsatisfying. For your own sanity, quit this nonsense guys!

jayroth
02-20-2009, 12:13 PM
So animation activated post 1.0.

I didn't say that, Mike.

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 12:14 PM
OK, I hope everyone will read Jay's statements and not jump to conclusions.

Anyone that thought Core was going to be a Complete app from the get go, has their expectations too high. I could cite numerous reasons, but regardless it is a huge task and they have to start somewhere.

There is a lot of time between now and Q4, we do not even have a beta version 0 to use and work with yet. All of these crazy premature notions are unproductive and unsatisfying. For your own sanity, quit this nonsense guys!

Yeah, the speculation and wishlists were heading into orbit. EDITED for lack of reading comprehension in Jay's post.

jin choung
02-20-2009, 12:15 PM
thanks fellows! looks like two weeks was the magic number for getting a status update so good timing. awwwww, were they waiting for me?

as for the ban - not my first time in the penalty box, likely not the last. but when i get body checked, i tend to check back. no hard feelings against nt for that. i did what i had to do, they do what they have to do. i takes my lumps.

anyhoo, play ball.

jin

p.s. 25 million PAIRS of boobs maybe not. 25million individual... i think i could handle it....

adamredwoods
02-20-2009, 12:16 PM
My guess is that LWCore 1.0 feature set will be determined by:
1. how smoothly the code can be ported over to Core
2. how fast the developers can work
3. what modo 401 is offering

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 12:16 PM
I didn't say that, Mike.

Hahaha.... my brain read q1 as q4, and was happy about it as then I knew what was potentially on the table for features for 1.0.......

You said this:
which will be activated sometime after the Q1 release

Dammit, now we're back to a huge number of possibilities......

Zithen
02-20-2009, 12:19 PM
Well...with all that said, Core definitely seems like it can have some clarification, which may not be until Q4.
I am little lost on Core right now. I get the architecture and intent. But frankly, if rendering and animation aren't also the focus at this point as well and Core isn't comparable to LW9 in those areas...then I have to ask why I would want to buy it until it does. Will I have to model using Core only to animate and render effectively in LW9.6? I think that's a legitimate question, sorry.
This doesn’t mean I'm not a fan of Newtek, their history and goal for Core.

What Newtek may want to consider is open sourcing the Core architecture. Much like Qt, Java, Flash and many others. They could open source the architecture and SDK under some license and sell the architecture to those companies that wish to develop for it and make a profit. They could also sell the LWX, the full 3d application, based on the architecture as well. If Core really is that open, it might be used for so many things, including compositing, paint, and anything else that could use the engines such as graphics, 3d, etc.
Newtek could obviously just do what they seem to be doing now, but Blender may surprise people in the coming years. All that needs to be done is better UI implementation for that app, for it has many great features. You can't beat free.

What do you think?

jin choung
02-20-2009, 12:19 PM
I didn't say that, Mike.

right... sorry jay, but do you understand that what you DID say is pretty darn vague?

again, why stick to q4? tell us what 1.0 will be. and don't stop working till that is achieved.

people don't stop building a car at a set date. they have an idea of what the car is and don't stop till it's all there.

1.0 doesn't have to be everything. it doesn't have to be everything that 9.6 was and more. it CAN have a limited featureset (modeling + limited render + no character animation, etc).

but what are your PLANS for 1.0 and why not just work till you get it?

jin

SBowie
02-20-2009, 12:21 PM
Dammit, now we're back to a huge number of possibilities......:)

Good. And it's clear, as most expected, that the Q4 version aims at being much, much more than 'just a modeler'.

It's one thing to attempt to read between the lines, speculate a bit, nudge a bit - it's quite another to adopt either the most pessimistic or most optimistic view and then regurgitate that interpretation as fact. Some have done that, and all it does is waste forum pixels.

jin choung
02-20-2009, 12:23 PM
:)

Good. And it's clear, as most expected, that the Q4 version aims at being much, much more than 'just a modeler'.


oh come on... now you're just going the OTHER WAY.... he didn't say THAT either... whatever "much much more" means....

jin

jayroth
02-20-2009, 12:24 PM
My guess is that LWCore 1.0 feature set will be determined by:
1. how smoothly the code can be ported over to Core
2. how fast the developers can work
3. what modo 401 is offering

To correct the assumption in your point #1. We are not porting. We are rebuilding, recreating, for the most part. Certain portable algorithms will be moved over, sure, as well as the concepts of what makes LightWave, well, LightWave. It might seem like semantics, but its important to have an accurate understanding of what we are actually doing.

Point 2, sure. You should hear how loud the hamster wheels are getting :)

Point 3, not really. We are on our own path. Good luck to those guys.

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 12:28 PM
Point 3, not really. We are on our own path. Good luck to those guys.

Their (lux/modo) path is fine, but honestly I wish they had done something more akin to your path, as it sound like you're taking more ambitious steps in building the foundation. Why people think one depends on the other is kind of odd. It's not like these are the only 2 tools competing for our buying resources.

Skonk
02-20-2009, 12:30 PM
These Newtek posts are really confusing me now.

The initial post said "focus on modelling",I guess we all assumed meant the final, non-beta Q4 release (1.0 or what ever) would be modelling focussed which makes us all assume it wont have animation.

Now you're saying that it's only the Q1 beta release that will have the modelling focus, and allow you to activate the animation features (to some degree) before the final, non-beta 1.0 Q4 release versions is released?

So can I get a straight yay or nay to this: Will the final 1.0 release which is aimed for Q4 allow us to create animations?

I'm not asking for a feature list, i'm not asking if I'l be able to do CA or what ever. But will I atleast have a timeline, and the ability to move and object from A to B over a period of time in this 1.0 Q4 release?

All this confusion is one of the reasons why I've gona as far as to tell Newtek that I want to remove myself from the hardcore program and be given a refund, to the point where the messege is now being passed to Sales to deal with it.

But then I see this post which again adds more confusion because it seems like you're now saying we will have animation features in the Q4 release.

I mean... all this makes a difference to whether or not you keep my money or send me it back; and it makes a difference to the future of the large number of lightwave 9 licenses I have and whether they get upgraded to Core later this year or if I move to a competitors application.

I dont WANT to give up my membership, but the confusing nature of the info we're being given + a buch of stuff from the private forums has made me regret joining to the point of resigning myself to leaving it.

Chuck
02-20-2009, 12:33 PM
Thanks for the info Jay. So animation activated post 1.0. Good to know. That frames what scope you are working within nicely. Looking forward to seeing more.

Jay said:
The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now, and those that will be activated soon, are required as a foundation for animation, which will be activated sometime after the Q1 release (keep reading).

Rehashed: The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now and others which will be activated soon are required as a foundation for animation. Animation will be activated sometime after the Q1 release.

Jay, please correct me if I've hashed that sentence wrongly. I'm looking at it from the context of what I know we have in progress in development, and this seems to be the most reasonable read from that point of view. However, if you had another intent then I may have misread it.

Larry_g1s
02-20-2009, 12:33 PM
thanks fellows! looks like two weeks was the magic number for getting a status update so good timing. awwwww, were they waiting for me?

as for the ban - not my first time in the penalty box, likely not the last. but when i get body checked, i tend to check back. no hard feelings against nt for that. i did what i had to do, they do what they have to do. i takes my lumps.

anyhoo, play ball.

jin

p.s. 25 million PAIRS of boobs maybe not. 25million individual... i think i could handle it....That's classic. Nice humility.


Jay said:

Rehashed: The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now and others which will be activated soon are required as a foundation for animation. Animation will be activated sometime after the Q1 release.

Jay, please correct me if I've hashed that sentence wrongly. I'm looking at it from the context of what I know we have in progress in development, and this seems to be the most reasonable read from that point of view. However, if you had another intent then I may have misread it.As long as some animation tools are present along with the modeling foundation, I'm good.

Jirapong
02-20-2009, 12:35 PM
Jay, Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, we who did not jump in yet, are looking forward to the Core. Sure, production wise, we need to make sure the transition will be smooth and we can start incorporate Core workflow with 9.6, not just playing with it.

Nicolas Jordan
02-20-2009, 12:37 PM
Thanks for the clarification Jay. I now understand your basic plan for Core and that will help me make my decision to upgrade my license to Core or not before March 31.

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 12:37 PM
Jay said:

Rehashed: The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now and others which will be activated soon are required as a foundation for animation. Animation will be activated sometime after the Q1 release.

Jay, please correct me if I've hashed that sentence wrongly. I'm looking at it from the context of what I know we have in progress in development, and this seems to be the most reasonable read from that point of view. However, if you had another intent then I may have misread it.

Yeah Chuck, my brain saw anim post q4 instead of q1 and rejoiced as I could then wrap my brain around where you guys might go with 1.0... But Jay corrected me, the possibilities are still wide open come q4.

SBowie
02-20-2009, 12:37 PM
oh come on... now you're just going the OTHER WAY.... he didn't say THAT either... whatever "much much more" means....Sure you're right, and all those who said it would be 'just a modeler' were right too - because I'm sure that after Q1, the entire dev team will take the next 3 "Qs" off and just sit around twiddling their thumbs and playing WoW. :thumbsup:

(Or it could be that in the remaining 3/4 of the year, they will do much, much more.)

Zithen
02-20-2009, 12:40 PM
For those who need clarification:
In the end, I think that most of you will be very happy with CORE; it's just a matter of when.
Okay, thank you for that letter. Hmmm, quite interesting. The decision to buy, that is...

At any rate, it is perfectly logical to focus on modeling for Q1. It's good to know it won't be the sole focus for Q4. I understand now.

cresshead
02-20-2009, 12:41 PM
my 1p question to jay





lightwve core 1.0 = model, animate, render?

and yes or no will do...:)




[to what degrees i do not care currently...if it's not a feature packed as 9.6 that's TOTALLY fine but for most basic i want to model and render a scene i'd like to think i can STAY in lightwave core v1.0 even if it's max animation capability is to render out a turntable of a character i've built]

also i'm not 'getting' the whole 4th quarter deadline...hardcore member ship will be around 9 months old...heck...make it 5th quarter!!...get some more features in there!:D

feel free to ignore it mind ya!

jin choung
02-20-2009, 12:43 PM
Sure you're right, and all those who said it would be 'just a modeler' were right too - because I'm sure that after Q1, the entire dev team will take the next 3 "Qs" off and just sit around twiddling their thumbs and playing WoW. :thumbsup:



sigh.... what is your understanding of software development? that they would HAVE TO BE TWIDDLING THEIR THUMBS to not deliver a complete animation and render featureset in 3 quarters?

these things take time. lots and lots and lots of time.

they are REBUILDING the app from ground up.

it took 2 years to get to where they are now. when it is revealed what they have with the open beta, you can speculate properly how much longer the rest will take. and nevermind BUG SQUASHING and optimizing what IS there....

sigh....

ack....

seriously....

jin

jayroth
02-20-2009, 12:43 PM
Jay said:

Rehashed: The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now and others which will be activated soon are required as a foundation for animation. Animation will be activated sometime after the Q1 release.

Jay, please correct me if I've hashed that sentence wrongly. I'm looking at it from the context of what I know we have in progress in development, and this seems to be the most reasonable read from that point of view. However, if you had another intent then I may have misread it.

Chuck, if only to add more precision to the statement: all functions are animatable. The CORE allows everything to be animated. That said, the animation functions will not receive much, if any, attention for the Q1 release.

Larry_g1s
02-20-2009, 12:45 PM
Point 3, not really. We are on our own path. Good luck to those guys.This is on a side note Jay. After listening to some of the Modcast produced by Luxology after Core revealed, I've been very very impressed with how both you/NT team, and Brad/Lux team have been respectful of each other. I'm sure the separation years back wasn't easy, but it really seems like it's not caring over and it's really about the 3D industry and each company trying to add to it to make it better via their application. So kudos to both teams.

achrystie
02-20-2009, 12:48 PM
I don't want to set my bar too low, but, if CORE just has some "really robust" modeling and character animation tools, with a really simple way to get them into Layout for surfacing, rendering, hair, and effects it's probably worth the $395. Modeling tools as robust and easy to use as the combination of Modo/Silo/Zbrush/Mudbox, with character animation tools to rival Messiah Studio, but with their own "special/unique" workflow innovations for $395 sounds good. This is of course all built into an application "ready" for everything else, all with an easy way to send to one of the best surfacing/rendering apps available (LW 9.6), sounds REALLY good to me.
It seems that is the "plan" (minus the specifics I added of course :)) from the latest post, hopefully that is the case, at the very least.

I understand being gun shy because of all the whiners, but as a company, you really have to power through that crap. Release a road map/plan, and make it very clear in the marketing BS that it is a PLAN not a PROMISE. I know there was some grumbling in the beta forums last year, but it seemed there were far more people who knew what PLAN meant than those that did not. Really, shackling your communication because of the loudness of those ignorant enough to take corporate development plans as "a promise" is foolish IMO. The educated buyer will appreciate the plan, know what it is, and probably be the most helpful in the CORE/Beta forums and as a tester anyway, and unfortunately those of us that want to see the thought process behind the development, won't invest otherwise. Those who piss and moan about how this feature was mentioned but never made it in the program, will piss and moan even if you don't release a plan or road map, simply because what "they want" is not in the program.

Hopefully we'll see some well worded road map posted before March 31st. Just knowing that Modeling and then Animation will be the first two items focused on has me closer to buying in, because those are the weak spots in what I already own (Lightwave 9.6).

Nemoid
02-20-2009, 12:53 PM
Thanks for the clarification about core roadmap.
It seems to me a good one also.
Since building a new foundation for Lw is so important and it is very important for the whole industry, i wanna say to the Newtek team keep up the good work! :agree:

It will be an hard(core)work !!! but at the end i believe it will be worth for all of us.

For the future, be sure to advertise correctly the new core features because i think they will deserve that. :thumbsup:

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 12:56 PM
Chuck, if only to add more precision to the statement: all functions are animatable. The CORE allows everything to be animated. That said, the animation functions will not receive much, if any, attention for the Q1 release.

I read this wrong again the 1st time. I think it's the word 'release' in there. I picture the 1st hardcore q1 thing a 'build', not a 'release' of a product. I think that's why I goofed it the 1st time.

SBowie
02-20-2009, 12:57 PM
it took 2 years to get to where they are now. when it is revealed what they have with the open beta, you can speculate properly how much longer the rest will take.I have no intention of speculating how long the rest will take. I said "more". You are the one who said "the rest".


more   /mɔr, moʊr/ [mawr, mohr] –adjective, compar. of much or many with most as superl.

1. in greater quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number


At a very fundamental level, surely even those without a dictionary can comprehend that a 'modeler with animation' is "much more" than a 'modeler'. Jay specifically stated "The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now, and those that will be activated soon, are required as a foundation for animation, which will be activated sometime after the Q1 release (keep reading)."

That things will continue to progress after Q4 is self-evident. That a Q4 ver. 1.0 Core release may not completely replace 9.6 has also been clearly stated. That the Q4 ver. 1.0 Core release will not be 'just a modeler' has just been confirmed. These are the available facts, and they serve nicely to dispel claims made as recently as this morning that the first core release would just be a modeler. I really don't know what you are struggling with.

Chuck
02-20-2009, 01:01 PM
I read this wrong again the 1st time. I think it's the word 'release' in there. I picture the 1st hardcore q1 thing a 'build', not a 'release' of a product. I think that's why I goofed it the 1st time.

"Build" seems the better term for me as well. I normally reserve "release" for - er uh, release-version products.

jin choung
02-20-2009, 01:01 PM
I have no intention of spculating how long the rest will take. I said "more". You are the one who said "the rest".


more   /mɔr, moʊr/ [mawr, mohr] –adjective, compar. of much or many with most as superl.

1. in greater quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number


At a very fundamental level, surely even those without a dictionary can comprehend that a 'modeler with animation' is "much more" than a 'modeler'. Jay specifically stated "The basic modeling toolsets that are in CORE now, and those that will be activated soon, are required as a foundation for animation, which will be activated sometime after the Q1 release (keep reading)."

That things will continue to progress after Q4 is self-evident. That a Q4 ver. 1.0 Core release may not completely replace 9.6 has also been clearly stated. That the Q4 ver. 1.0 Core release will not be 'just a modeler' has just been confirmed. These are the available facts, and they serve nicely to dispel claims made as recently as this morning that the first core release would just be a modeler. I really don't know what you are struggling with.

define "much much more".... sigh...

why speak in vague hyperbole?

DISPEL WHAT?!?!?! we don't know HOW MUCH of any of the other capabilities will be implemented!!!

please... just stop.

jin

Mike_RB
02-20-2009, 01:02 PM
"Build" seems the better term for me as well. I normally reserve "release" for - er uh, release-version products.

Cool, glad I'm not totally crazy. 'Mostly' I can live with.

SBowie
02-20-2009, 01:14 PM
please... just stop.It will be my pleasure, since you are clearly just looking for an argument. My point was unambiguous and non-hyperbolic to anyone who has been following the discussion. To restate it, it is abundantly clear that the Core release version will contain much, much more than 'just a modeler'. If you question that, either re-read this thread or ask Chuck or Jay if my statement is in any way inaccurate. If you prefer instead to simply natter on about nothing, please carry on.

(I suppose I'm supposed to add childish histrionics to the bottom of my post. To save time, just imagine them.)

geothefaust
02-20-2009, 01:18 PM
Hey Jin, glad to see you back! :thumbsup:

jin choung
02-20-2009, 01:26 PM
It will be my pleasure, since you are clearly just looking for an argument. My point was unambiguous and non-hyperbolic to anyone who has been following the discussion. To restate it, it is abundantly clear that the Core release version will contain much, much more than 'just a modeler'. If you question that, either re-read this thread or ask Chuck or Jay if my statement is in any way inaccurate. If you prefer instead to simply natter on about nothing, please carry on.

(I suppose I'm supposed to add childish histrionics to the bottom of my post. To save time, just imagine them.)

welcome to my ignore list. hope you enjoy your stay.

jin

p.s. what is it about dudes with mustaches around here... that almost defines whether i'm gonna have a problem with them or not.... lol....

jin choung
02-20-2009, 01:27 PM
Hey Jin, glad to see you back! :thumbsup:

aww shucks. thanks!

jin

Liber777
02-20-2009, 01:33 PM
deee-leted

SBowie
02-20-2009, 01:36 PM
welcome to my ignore list. hope you enjoy your stay.I am already. :)

dballesg
02-20-2009, 01:43 PM
Hi Jay,

Thanks for clarify. Form your first post:


modeling was a good choice, and modelling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year.

That was the sentence that confused me. Sounded like only modelling would have attention up to Q4.

NOW IS CLEAR IS Q1. Much better.


For those who need clarification:

The Q1 release of CORE is focusing on the CORE modeling toolset.

The basic modelling tool sets that are in CORE now, and those that will be activated soon, are required as a foundation for animation, which will be activated sometime after the Q1 release (keep reading).

After the initial Q1 releases, we will have subsequent releases that fix whatever bugs are in the Q1 release, as well as activate new features and refine workflows, change nomenclature as determined, and so on. Much like the way open beta worked, we will pursue the process for HardCORE in a similar manner. The planned Q4 release will be considered the final 1.0 version of the product.

This sounds to me much better than the previous beta program. Focusing on a set of features at a time looks good.


Some of those who are insisting on a final feature list now are the same people who criticized the fact that certain features did not make the cut in LightWave v9.x. In all cases, those features failed due to the aging architecture of that series.

We didn't now at THAT time that you were working on CORE, or I think the past criticisms would not be the same with the information we have NOW.


If you do decide to join, you will enjoy an interchange with our team along the lines that have been demonstrated in the last few days in the HardCORE forum, an experience that I have found to be very enjoyable.

That is one of the points that attracted very much my attention, the fact that users would help on the shape of the product. And not simply beta test it.



In the end, I think that most of you will be very happy with CORE; it's just a matter of when.

I hope we will be VERY happy with it.


Chuck, if only to add more precision to the statement: all functions are animatable. The CORE allows everything to be animated. That said, the animation functions will not receive much, if any, attention for the Q1 release.

Good to know.

David

animotion
02-20-2009, 02:02 PM
Why buy Core when you can get the screenshots for free?

Larry_g1s
02-20-2009, 02:04 PM
Why buy Core when you can get the screenshots for free?:screwy:

mouse_art
02-20-2009, 02:07 PM
True, until the first build arrives.


Why buy Core when you can get the screenshots for free?