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View Full Version : The CORE kills kitten development/kittens layout better/show kittens first THREAD!



archijam
02-14-2009, 06:51 AM
The kittens have answered.

In order to cover all those -

"NT should reveal more stuff"
"NT should make pretty pages"
"Lux' 4.x should be compared to core"

... concerns, the kittens have released more clues:

KittenCORErevealed (http://cherrypirate.ch/kittencore)

The embeded film should be this one:
kitten reveal (http://media.revver.com/qt/196282.mov)


(I am planning to buy 401 and HC, so please don't assume this is making fun of anything but ourselves ...)

DBMiller
02-14-2009, 07:04 AM
Ok son, step away from the computer...:D

Wade
02-14-2009, 07:08 AM
LOL

though modos site looks a bit cheap. really not as well done in MHO as say the new core page. Some icanday but too cuteish.

cresshead
02-14-2009, 07:14 AM
purrrrrrfect!

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 07:30 AM
LOL

though modos site looks a bit cheap. really not as well done in MHO as say the new core page. Some icanday but too cuteish.

Hahaha. The new core page vs. the well put together magazine layout over at lux, and lux comes over as cheap?. Hahahaha

Cageman
02-14-2009, 08:37 AM
Hahaha. The new core page vs. the well put together magazine layout over at lux, and lux comes over as cheap?. Hahahaha

Well...except the apparent lack of eyecandy on CORE page, I do prefer it over the lux stuff.

mav3rick
02-14-2009, 09:03 AM
Hahaha. The new core page vs. the well put together magazine layout over at lux, and lux comes over as cheap?. Hahahaha

you really turned into fanboy i must tell you...
have you commented anything usefull for LW community in past 1 year... according to OPEN beta forum i didnt see much of help from you and that's sad

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 09:17 AM
you really turned into fanboy i must tell you...
have you commented anything usefull for LW community in past 1 year... according to OPEN beta forum i didnt see much of help from you and that's sad

Right. You want to start a poll regarding the artistic quality of the presentation of material from Newtek/Lux?

I haven't been using LW in production since shortly after Iron Man. I don't tend to contribute much to open betas.

mav3rick
02-14-2009, 09:32 AM
Right. You want to start a poll regarding the artistic quality of the presentation of material from Newtek/Lux?

I haven't been using LW in production since shortly after Iron Man. I don't tend to contribute much to open betas.

that's sad fact....

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 09:36 AM
It's nothing to get emotional about. LW wasen't cutting it for our work so we had to move on. We're using it again right now for an ad, but its mainly because it's a reuse of assets already setup in LW. We're still struggling with some things going back to LW, especially using LW in a linear pipeline. I hope there has been massive improvements to the renderer for linear workflow in core.

iluxa
02-14-2009, 09:56 AM
It's sad.
But after seeing of lwx cheapest ;) presentation, i found new UI and workflow with it are very useful in video. Normal toolbars /please who will get first core-beta.... check, have users messing with chaos of multiple floating toolbars?! NT, please prevent it in future/ , menus and ect.

Lightwolf
02-14-2009, 11:24 AM
I hope there has been massive improvements to the renderer for linear workflow in core.
The renderer doesn't need any... everything around it does. :)

Cheers,
Mike

jasonwestmas
02-14-2009, 11:29 AM
Is this where we falsely threaten to kill cute little fuzzy animals if we don't get more info from NT about CORE?

Uhhh, that sounded a little more nasty than intended. We tried it last time, and it worked I swear!

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 11:33 AM
The renderer doesn't need any... everything around it does. :)

Cheers,
Mike

The AA contrast test not taking into account the target gamma is a huge one for us, and would probably be easy to fix. The other main wish would be built in ray bounce limiting per surface.

GandB
02-14-2009, 12:17 PM
So much for the whole "Invasion by cute furry kittens idea".....back to the drawing board.

Cageman
02-14-2009, 01:05 PM
It's nothing to get emotional about. LW wasen't cutting it for our work so we had to move on. We're using it again right now for an ad, but its mainly because it's a reuse of assets already setup in LW. We're still struggling with some things going back to LW, especially using LW in a linear pipeline. I hope there has been massive improvements to the renderer for linear workflow in core.

Michael,

I actually don't know you more than from what I can gather on your posts here and Skype chats... but...

I sense alot of bitterness from you regarding LW. I really don't know what happened, but it seems that you are not willing to spend time to get your points across (in an open beta for example). That is in fact very sad, even more so since you seem to be very emotional about LightWave in the first place. You bicker and complain, but are not prepared to do something to make LW a better software (except talking).

Or have I missed something?

archijam
02-14-2009, 01:14 PM
http://www.dailypets.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/kittens-cups.jpg

DBMiller
02-14-2009, 01:19 PM
You must submit to the cuteness!

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 01:26 PM
but it seems that you are not willing to spend time to get your points across (in an open beta for example). That is in fact very sad, even more so since you seem to be very emotional about LightWave in the first place. You bicker and complain, but are not prepared to do something to make LW a better software (except talking).

Or have I missed something?

I said I don't tend to participate in open betas. There are other ways of getting information to and from software developers. I'm anything but silent on what I want and need from LW.

Cageman
02-14-2009, 01:38 PM
I said I don't tend to participate in open betas. There are other ways of getting information to and from software developers. I'm anything but silent on what I want and need from LW.

Yeah... but are you willing to spend a whole night testing things back and forth that are based on a bugreport you filled and at the same time have a chat with the coder responsible for the implementation?

Just asking, because that is what some of us are doing/have done for LW9.x series.

hrgiger
02-14-2009, 06:00 PM
The lux site sure can make pretty pictures. But I'd rather see a demo of the software instead of 'here, you can make this. Maybe.'

jasonwestmas
02-14-2009, 06:08 PM
http://www.dailypets.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/kittens-cups.jpg

OK! Now we're talking. The right one is going to get a bath in boiling coffee and just add water to the left and put in freezer for insta-kitty pop. Stop us if you will NT!

Cohen
02-14-2009, 07:12 PM
I submit to the fluffy kittens. :bowdown:

Regarding the presentation pages. I find lux's presentation both sexy and intriguing. However there exists a void that is both contextual and conceptual. There are too many empty areas or blank spaces through out the pages, that makes it feel a bit ametuerish. But more importantly, there is not enough detailed information about the new tech they put in to their product that I am otherwise interested in reading. The more info, the better for me to size up the product. (I do not have a copy, nor demo, so need some more info then the past quotes from beta artists. And if the want me to buy it, they need to give me the meat that shows me why I need it.)

As for the NEW (http://www.newtek.com/core/) core pages, they are jaw dropping to read. Albiet no sexy images. But since CORE has been presented as it is, a powerful, flexible platform without feature sets, then the page persentation should reflect that. And to that end, Newtek has done a great job. These pages unviel a membership program that allows one to work with this new platform. Line by line, the information on these pages intice anyone having worked in maya, houdini, or even xsi. These kinds of people understand what a unified dynamics enviornment brings to the table. They understand the power of node based workflows, contrsuction history, and modifier history. Newtek has made their case with CORE, and has outlined it in a very well, concise manner with their presentation.

For those reasons, I will say Newtek has presented CORE membership program in a neat and informative way. One that has allowed me to make an informative decision. Tangental to that, luxology has failed to bring the meat to the table. And to that end, it is easy for me to grade both companies 'roll-out' pages. Newtek gets a marginal A, while Luxology falls within the norm of the empirical rule. I know this to be true, because Newtek are the ones getting my money.

Wade
02-14-2009, 07:57 PM
Hahaha. The new core page vs. the well put together magazine layout over at lux, and lux comes over as cheap?. Hahahaha


Hey Mike,
To be more specific I think the Lux upcoming 401 reveal pages look poor I don't like the rounded corners thing... but the images look good if not limited to red bubbles and cactus spines. I think it was done in haste. again I don't like the rounded corners at all.
That said for some time I have thought the Lux site out shined the NT site by a fair margin.
I can't speak in comparing the software as I have not had the need to use Mo as LW to date has been a great tool to design Illustrate and make a living. I only do simple architectural renderings and fly throughs with it.
I do hope core ends up being all that we need or want it to be.

The kittens LOL
Peace.
;)

toby
02-14-2009, 09:18 PM
Yeah... but are you willing to spend a whole night testing things back and forth that are based on a bugreport you filled and at the same time have a chat with the coder responsible for the implementation?

Just asking, because that is what some of us are doing/have done for LW9.x series.
*Gasp*! Mike_RB hasn't sacrificed enough goats to LW!! Buuurrrrrn hiiiiiim!! Heretic! Heretic! :p

Cageman
02-14-2009, 09:27 PM
*Gasp*! Mike_RB hasn't sacrificed enough goats to LW!! Buuurrrrrn hiiiiiim!! Heretic! Heretic! :p

Exactly! :D

Exception
02-17-2009, 01:57 AM
They get born in a sac that's then eaten?!

Do we get a free sac with each HardCORE subscription?

*Pete*
02-17-2009, 02:47 AM
Hahaha. The new core page vs. the well put together magazine layout over at lux, and lux comes over as cheap?. Hahahaha

to be honest, yes..Lux shows less.

Lux shows images created by talented artists partly using the new tools that will be included in Modo, nothing wrong with that.
but did you notice how Modo 401 instancing works?...how is it placed, is it interactive, is it easy to use..how would you go at placing those instances?

how is it, is it fast, realtime?, is there a huge renderhit?...we wouldnt know.

you didnt see that, you saw the endresult of what some artist did...you may or you may not be able to create the same, depending on the complexity of the workflow.

the CORE presentation did not provide pretty images, nor did it show all information we would prefer to have, but it did show instancing in action, realtime deformations in modeller with instances...that alone is an advantage over HD Instance.

so, in that sence the presentation of instancing was better for CORE and less so for Modo, since we do not know more of either of the applications, we wouldnt know which one actually has better instancing.
but the CORE presentation did show me how i could work with it, modo did not...all i know Modo instancing could be a simple pixel filter.


i would not go so far as to say that the CORE presentation was flawless, or even very good...or good.
it was OK at best, Modo likewise.

pretty images do not work for me, i wouldnt buy a car based on a pretty poster image, nor would you...you would prefer atleast to see it in action or to read some technical details of it.
...and in any case, you would take it to a testride, or wait untill it is reviewed by trusted friends or good automagazines...is NT and Lux would be manufacturing cars, which would be in a better position to sell one to you at the moment?


either way, we will all just have to wait and see, its only a few weeks Mike, no hasty decisions needed just yet...dont sell you licence untill you know what is ahead, and you dont need to buy an unknown app either based on inadequate information or simple images.

...just wait and see.

Frank_Geppert
02-17-2009, 02:59 AM
to be honest, yes..Lux shows less...
how is it, is it fast, realtime?, is there a huge renderhit?...we wouldnt know.

You can just check the video at the same page. It shows impressive render speed. It renders almost as fast as if you render only one of the instances. And then there is some kind of real-time navigation in the rendered scene. Very impressive.

So in fact, it is just the contrary of what you said. I see hard facts, features, images and even workflow videos of upcoming features. Even if I love my LW, I am not a blind fanboy to deny this difference.

phil lawson
02-17-2009, 03:17 AM
to be honest, yes..Lux shows less.

Lux shows images created by talented artists partly using the new tools that will be included in Modo, nothing wrong with that.
but did you notice how Modo 401 instancing works?...how is it placed, is it interactive, is it easy to use..how would you go at placing those instances?

how is it, is it fast, realtime?, is there a huge renderhit?...we wouldnt know.

you didnt see that, you saw the endresult of what some artist did...you may or you may not be able to create the same, depending on the complexity of the workflow.

the CORE presentation did not provide pretty images, nor did it show all information we would prefer to have, but it did show instancing in action, realtime deformations in modeller with instances...that alone is an advantage over HD Instance.

so, in that sence the presentation of instancing was better for CORE and less so for Modo, since we do not know more of either of the applications, we wouldnt know which one actually has better instancing.
but the CORE presentation did show me how i could work with it, modo did not...all i know Modo instancing could be a simple pixel filter.


i would not go so far as to say that the CORE presentation was flawless, or even very good...or good.
it was OK at best, Modo likewise.

pretty images do not work for me, i wouldnt buy a car based on a pretty poster image, nor would you...you would prefer atleast to see it in action or to read some technical details of it.
...and in any case, you would take it to a testride, or wait untill it is reviewed by trusted friends or good automagazines...is NT and Lux would be manufacturing cars, which would be in a better position to sell one to you at the moment?


either way, we will all just have to wait and see, its only a few weeks Mike, no hasty decisions needed just yet...dont sell you licence untill you know what is ahead, and you dont need to buy an unknown app either based on inadequate information or simple images.

...just wait and see.

You could download the evaluation of modo if you want to see how interactive instances are - instances are not new to modo...its had them since 201. Replicators are a form of instance, but require even less of a memory foot print.

These replicators can use any of the interactive tools that instances use, plus have the ability to be generated from vertex/polygon positions at render-time for example(or real-time or via a surface generator material). This means you can use any of modos masking tools to populate a mesh or even its vertex weight mapping tools.

Cheers.

Tobian
02-17-2009, 03:39 AM
You can really see how effective kitty instancing is, I saw at least 8 in one part of the video :)

Funny parody :)

At the end of the day Modo's site is very slick, and Newtek could take a leaf out of their book (not that their site is awful), in terms of slickness of advertising. Has to be said though, anything that slick and shiny always looks too good to be true, so deserves some parody :D

*Pete*
02-17-2009, 03:40 AM
You can just check the video at the same page. It shows impressive render speed. It renders almost as fast as if you render only one of the instances. And then there is some kind of real-time navigation in the rendered scene. Very impressive.

So in fact, it is just the contrary of what you said. I see hard facts, features, images and even workflow videos of upcoming features. Even if I love my LW, I am not a blind fanboy to deny this difference.

i only seen the pdf presentation, was there more to it?

care to give me a link?

Tobian
02-17-2009, 03:46 AM
There was the rhino demo, which is quite impressive, though I usually find with such demo's the settings have been tweaked to show it off to it's best advantage... try adding blurry reflections/refractions to that - and watch his computer implode :D

Much as the render improvements in Lightwave 9.6 mean I can render my scenes in under 3 weeks instead of under 4 weeks :D

phil lawson
02-17-2009, 03:50 AM
i only seen the pdf presentation, was there more to it?

care to give me a link?

http://www.luxology.com/event/2008/SIGGRAPH/index.aspx

Some videos from SIGGRAPH.

Cheers.

*Pete*
02-17-2009, 04:32 AM
very nice...looks like Modo gets a Fprime like previewer as well.

not bad at all. :D

thanks for the link Phil.

*Pete*
02-17-2009, 04:34 AM
There was the rhino demo, which is quite impressive, though I usually find with such demo's the settings have been tweaked to show it off to it's best advantage... try adding blurry reflections/refractions to that - and watch his computer implode :D


nah, instancing is VERY fast..i have HD Instance for LW and instancing gives suprisingly small increase in render speeds..that is, unless you go hardcore with reflections and refractions as you said...i had a scene where i had to pump ray recursions all the way to 64 to handle all the instanced refractions and reflections...needless to say, it was painfully slow.

Frank_Geppert
02-17-2009, 04:36 AM
i only seen the pdf presentation, was there more to it?

care to give me a link?

I have no special or secret link. It is only the standard official reveal website directly linked from the start page of Luxology. The sub page for replicators comes with text, images and 2 impressive videos:
http://www.luxology.com/modo/401.replicators/

shrox
02-17-2009, 04:39 AM
Rather than threatening to shoot kittens, just hold up a Stephen King short story, then say "We will shoot this as a movie if you don't give in!"

phil lawson
02-17-2009, 04:50 AM
very nice...looks like Modo gets a Fprime like previewer as well.

not bad at all. :D

thanks for the link Phil.

No worries Pete - but again..it doesn't really "get"...its had a previewer since 201...just beefed up for the next release (401).

Sorry, I didn't mean to side track the thread from kitten development...I'll reside into the shadows again. :D

Tobian
02-17-2009, 04:53 AM
Yeah Modo Shmodo - we want Kitten Core! Why hasn't Newtek released more pictures of it, and more videos?! :)

shrox
02-17-2009, 05:23 AM
I am wondering, how many current LW users will use the single window setup? I prefer the separate modeller and layout.

*Pete*
02-17-2009, 05:32 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean to side track the thread from kitten development...I'll reside into the shadows again. :D

no problem..it is easily corrected.

we seen instanced rhinos, we seen fur, we seen a realtime previewer.

the question is, can Modo preview instanced kittens with fur in real time? or is it a pixel filter added at rendertime?


anyway..back to off topic, i know very little of Modo..all i saw was the pdf presentation and the following discussions comparing it with the not too successfull CORE reveal.
i was basically comparing on that basis.

i have no illwill against Mod what so ever, and im very happy over the fact that it is improving as well...im not into the mudslinging between applications, i doesnt do any of us any favours..not short term and not long term.

when/if Lux/NT/Autodesk comes up with something new and innovative, chances are that in a relatively short time that new and innovative thing is in all applications.
we all win on it...CORE is at an early stage, possibly they will have little to show in some time to come, possibly they will have something very big coming out that will take advantage of the new code...what ever it is, be sure that it is to be found in all major competing applications before too long.

you have sculpting in Modo, what would be the chances of it without the existence of for example ZBrush or Mudbox as inspiration?

phil lawson
02-17-2009, 05:55 AM
Absolutely - I will gladly use Application X if it can make my current task easier.

To answer the fur question - yes, your replicated kittens can have fur applied as the fur is actually replicated geometry with custom attributes and an optional shader (not pixel filter however).

*Pete*
02-17-2009, 06:18 AM
Absolutely - I will gladly use Application X if it can make my current task easier.

To answer the fur question - yes, your replicated kittens can have fur applied as the fur is actually replicated geometry with custom attributes and an optional shader (not pixel filter however).

wow...i didnt expect that one, a realtime kitten previewer.

we need that in LW too!!:thumbsup:

jasonwestmas
02-17-2009, 07:39 AM
I am wondering, how many current LW users will use the single window setup? I prefer the separate modeller and layout.

As long as I can always have easy access to the tools I need and quickly, and be able to animate every component then I don't care.

archijam
02-17-2009, 09:01 AM
Rrrreally looking forward to both 401 and core. If anything the only thing I am nervous about is losing their similar mode of (architectural) modelling, I would love to continue to model in a similar way in both apps. The renderers can be as different as tabbies and siamese for all I care, in fact the more differences, the better!

Re: kittens, I haven't personally heard any more, but I can't shake the feeling that there are more clues to be had in this cryptic message:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUm6XUFV8_U

Digital Hermit
02-17-2009, 08:30 PM
They get born in a sac that's then eaten?!

Do we get a free sac with each HardCORE subscription?


{cough - gak} Dang, I think I just tasted a little my vomit.

It's ok, nothing a good beer can't solve. :beerchug:

TripD
02-17-2009, 08:57 PM
{cough - gak} Dang, I think I just tasted a little my vomit.

It's ok, nothing a good beer can't solve. :beerchug:

^ That was a hair ball! See, the new kitten Core fiber factory just gets fur all over everything, including all your nice architectual stuff!

It will be kitten kaos I tell yah!

frantbk
02-18-2009, 10:08 AM
It's nothing to get emotional about. LW wasen't cutting it for our work so we had to move on. We're using it again right now for an ad, but its mainly because it's a reuse of assets already setup in LW. We're still struggling with some things going back to LW, especially using LW in a linear pipeline. I hope there has been massive improvements to the renderer for linear workflow in core.

So your wanting and waiting to be surprised by lightwave core? This is not :spam: I'm just curious. I'm sitting on the fence about lightwave core and modo 401. If you read the Core tech FAQ Core sounds like the next best thing since warm butter. NewTek hasn't said that the full SDK kit will release in the 4Q with core. The reason I say this is because someone over at the lux site was grousing about modo's SDK kit hasn't shown up and it was announced back at the pre-release of 201 ( I think).

frantbk
02-18-2009, 10:12 AM
You can really see how effective kitty instancing is, I saw at least 8 in one part of the video :)

Funny parody :)

At the end of the day Modo's site is very slick, and Newtek could take a leaf out of their book (not that their site is awful), in terms of slickness of advertising. Has to be said though, anything that slick and shiny always looks too good to be true, so deserves some parody :D

I don't know why some people always want convergence between these two companies. Lux, is Lux and NewTek is NewTek lets accept that not everything in 3D has to be the same. :grumpy:

Tobian
02-18-2009, 10:18 AM
Not sure if you actually meant to reply to my comments with your statement as I never said anything about convergence, I just said Newtek could use some slickness in their advertising. Programming-wise, I think Newtek are doing quite well on their own thank you very much!

Myagi
02-18-2009, 10:37 AM
NewTek hasn't said that the full SDK kit will release in the 4Q with core. The reason I say this is because someone over at the lux site was grousing about modo's SDK kit hasn't shown up and it was announced back at the pre-release of 201 ( I think).

The way I understand it, is that it's so obviously implied that it will come with the SDK, that they didn't even conisder specifically listing it.

The way they're saying that core by design is supposed to be an open flexible platform, the whole python or hook in any other SWIG compatible scripting to your liking, and their internal tools use the same API (ie. the default tools are basically plugins using the SDK too). I would be extremly surprised, nay shocked, if the SDK wasn't released along with it.

frantbk
02-18-2009, 12:40 PM
Not sure if you actually meant to reply to my comments with your statement as I never said anything about convergence, I just said Newtek could use some slickness in their advertising. Programming-wise, I think Newtek are doing quite well on their own thank you very much!

Slickness? The core gimmick wasn't slick enough? I don't think NewTek needs slickness in advertising. NewTek needs to work on sending a clear message on what they intend to do and release with Lightwave Core 1.x release.

Luxology's webpage for 401 may not be as shiny as NewTeks but NewTek's web page can be considered too pushy with too many information portals. The 401 webpage is a step by step understanding of what is new in 401. Therefore, is can be said that NewTek only has a general message, and not a specific message for core (at this time).

The who flow of the lux v. nt webpage is who has the better one. convergence is who's product is better modo, or Core?

As others have said in other threads, if NewTek can pull off the whole node/core software package lightwavers will have a product with the power of Houdini and the ease of use of lightwave. NewTek hasn't done anything yet, but make promises of what can be, not what is. Only the 4Q and release of Core will answer that. :goodluck:

frantbk
02-18-2009, 12:51 PM
The way I understand it, is that it's so obviously implied that it will come with the SDK, that they didn't even conisder specifically listing it.

That paragraph doesn't make me feel good. pmG and Lux have made the same statements (more, or less) and several release-and-years have slipped by with people waiting for the full SDK. Luxology is a good example, some are complaining that some problems would be gone if the full SDK kit had shipped back with 201 release.


The way they're saying that core by design is supposed to be an open flexible platform, the whole python or hook in any other SWIG compatible scripting to your liking, and their internal tools use the same API (ie. the default tools are basically plugins using the SDK too). I would be extremly surprised, nay shocked, if the SDK wasn't released along with it.

I do know what NewTek is implying. The fact that the full SDK kit is needed to make it happen is the important issue. If the full SDK kit doesn't ship with Core 1.x then 30-50% of cores appeal is screwed. NewTek is talking about core's flexibility, the big FX houses with their in-house plugins are the ones that will leverage that capability of core. Also guys like you with programing skills will want to leverage that capability. I haven't heard a clear and binding promise from NewTek that the full SDK kit will ship with core 1.x.

Drakaran
02-18-2009, 06:29 PM
frantbk: XSI promised the same thing with ICE. Also, if you want instancing, it's already in Houdini.

Wade
02-18-2009, 07:33 PM
from what I understand SKD is very much top of list to have out. :newtek: s whole idear is to make CORE that one central Core that they and others can build on....................... and build on............. and so on and so on...

frantbk
02-18-2009, 08:11 PM
frantbk: XSI promised the same thing with ICE. Also, if you want instancing, it's already in Houdini.

Drakaran what is your point? Avid Softimage XSI promised the same thing with ICE. Did Avid deliver? Are you telling me it is ok to promise something you don't intend to deliver?

Instancing is already in modo and now modo has replicators along with instancing. The only question I have is how well does modo and Houdini play together?

The point I'm trying to make is that failure to release the SDK with core will effect core's release sales.