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G-Man
02-13-2009, 10:07 AM
Give us some previews of rendering and surfacing workflow. Lighting etc. Show us what to expect for our money.

jthompson3d
02-13-2009, 10:17 AM
Give us some previews of rendering and surfacing workflow. Lighting etc. Show us what to expect for our money.

I couldn't agree any more. I am the same way.

hrgiger
02-13-2009, 10:22 AM
Show us what to expect for our money.

What you can expect is to pay more if you wait too long.

kojean
02-13-2009, 11:12 AM
I'm also hoping to see more before the March 31 deadline.

After the countdown webcast, I thought there were a few official NewTek posts that said we would be seeing a lot more soon. I hope we can get an idea of the current functionality of CORE as compared to v9.6 in terms of doing productive work, including texturing, scene layout, rendering and animation. Maybe it's too early for that, but I would like to get a more complete, detailed picture before signing up.

Orimar
02-13-2009, 11:32 AM
Mr. Plant wrote this yesterday:

No, I haven't gone missing. I've been here every day. Posting in various threads whenever I have new info. And getting the NewTek.com/core FAQ pages updated to reflect the latest information.

I also said that were a lot of questions I couldn't answer...like CORE feature and technical questions...because I just didn't know the answers right then. That hasn't changed.

We did what we intended to do: announce a completely new direction for the future of LightWave. The presentation didn't go the way we hoped, but between that and the CORE technology FAQ, we distributed all the information we could at the time. We think what we announced is very exciting, and more info is coming.

I know many of you are eager for more information before you make your decision to join HardCORE. I think this completely reasonable. We plan to present much more information long before the March 31st deadline for the charter membership offer expires. If it's enough, please join. If it isn't enough, we will be disappointed, but we will understand.

Jim Plant
President & CEO
NewTek, Inc.

Found here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95214

bobakabob
02-13-2009, 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by G-Man
Show us what to expect for our money.

Fair enough. You pays your money and makes your choice. If not... it will cost you in the long run.

Aren't the improvements in Lightwave over the 9 series evidence enough that Newtek have their eye on the ball?

Nicolas Jordan
02-13-2009, 11:55 AM
Give us some previews of rendering and surfacing workflow. Lighting etc. Show us what to expect for our money.

:agree: I hope we see some good quality videos that touch on most major areas of what Lightwave Core currently is even if it is subject to change. I have a feeling we will see some videos before March 31 because it would be in Newteks best interest to show more of Core in order to get most of us fence sitters off of the fence.

biliousfrog
02-13-2009, 01:24 PM
What you can expect is to pay more if you wait too long.

Not at all. Until there's some proof otherwise, I'm assuming that Hardcore membership will just give access to the alpha and beta stages with the final release in Q4. In Q1 of 2010 the membership will be required for the next release which should be just bug fixes and new features.

If that's the case, buying HC membership now will give you approximately 3 months of usable, production ready software for $395. Personally, I'd rather pay the full upgrade price in a year for a full 12 months of usable software...but only if the general consensus is that it works and I can replace 9.6.

So - $395 for 3 months of software Vs $495 for 12 months...that's an expensive T-shirt.

Obviously the software lasts forever but the subscription service will only be valid for 3 months of usable software if I'm correct. There's a pretty good chance that CORE won't even get to 9.6 stage for a couple of years in which case HC members will have to pay $790 for software that can't even replace what they have now.

Of course, it's all speculation but there hasn't been anything to make me think otherwise yet.

geothefaust
02-13-2009, 01:40 PM
In fact you are QUITE mistaken. Though anyone that has paid for HardCORE now, their subscriptions will NOT start until the first beta build ships. Also you're wrong about the upgrade for EXISTING HC members. Straight from the website, if you care to have read it:


The special HardCORE Charter Member discount price of US$395 is guaranteed to remain the same when renewing next year.

Oh, plus we get the final build WITH that price. It's not like it's going to stop working when our subscriptions run out, as you make it seem. Get real. :tsktsk:

I think you should have paid more attention during the 9 cycle. I'm paraphrasing here, but NT (either Jay or Chuck) had stated that features would trickle down to 9 from 10, IF they made sense. You can at the very least assume that it will be ON PAR with 9 in most areas, or exceeding in others, and perhaps lacking in others.



Not at all. Until there's some proof otherwise, I'm assuming that Hardcore membership will just give access to the alpha and beta stages with the final release in Q4. In Q1 of 2010 the membership will be required for the next release which should be just bug fixes and new features.

If that's the case, buying HC membership now will give you approximately 3 months of usable, production ready software for $395. Personally, I'd rather pay the full upgrade price in a year for a full 12 months of usable software...but only if the general consensus is that it works and I can replace 9.6.

So - $395 for 3 months of software Vs $495 for 12 months...that's an expensive T-shirt.

Obviously the software lasts forever but the subscription service will only be valid for 3 months of usable software if I'm correct. There's a pretty good chance that CORE won't even get to 9.6 stage for a couple of years in which case HC members will have to pay $790 for software that can't even replace what they have now.

Of course, it's all speculation but there hasn't been anything to make me think otherwise yet.

GandB
02-13-2009, 01:43 PM
You pays your money and makes your choice. If not... it will cost you in the long run.
....Or it will cost NewTek in lost sales.


Of course, it's all speculation but there hasn't been anything to make me think otherwise yet.
I agree with that completely.

The new video is what they should have opened up with. Putting things off for a day or two to get it right the first time, would have avoided many of the initial posting...along with making sure that the Forums were up and ready to go from the start.

A few people here seem to want to get down on those who aren't feeling the same "warm and fuzzy" feeling that they are, with Core. Make no mistake; the people who follow your advice of "don't like it, then don't buy into it", won't be hurting your bottom line...they be hurting the hard working folks at NT.

I wonder what the number of people is who were either on the fence, or simply wanted more before committing....is? Multiply that by @$400, and that's the price NT is paying.

Perhaps it would have been much better to just hold off on any kind of publicity, until everything was ready to go (and tested....meaning the initial video release).

On a positive note; the newer video is MUCH better, as well as being able to actually find it no the Core page finally. Now I know how the people who kept harping on NT to put an easy to find link to the demo on the main site felt. :bangwall:

-Keith

hrgiger
02-13-2009, 01:45 PM
Of course, it's all speculation but there hasn't been anything to make me think otherwise yet.

I see people still aren't getting the point of the hardcore membership.
You're not buying a membership to have a years worth of production ready software. You're buying a membership because (and these are my own reasons):

A) it's $300 cheaper then waiting until the shipping version comes out (which you get with your membership). $395 now or $695 when it ships. Even better, now Newtek has guaranteed the $395 for next years membership for charter members.
B) I like to stay abreast with Lightwave development and experience new features as they are added
C) I like to test those new features, provide feedback on bugs with the software or how features are implemented so that I can play a role in shaping the development of Lightwave.

And I'm not sure I'm following you about the $790. For the first $395, you get the first edition of Core once it's released (currently scheduled for Q4). You're not required to upgrade or buy another membership at that point. If you don't feel like it can replace 9.6, feel free to hold off until it does. If you want to get another discount, you can rejoin and then when there's the next paid release, you get that too.

GandB
02-13-2009, 01:49 PM
In fact you are QUITE mistaken. Though anyone that has paid for HardCORE now, their subscriptions will NOT start until the first beta build ships. Also you're wrong about the upgrade for EXISTING HC members. Straight from the website, if you care to have read it:
Perhaps he just didn't see the latest change to the Core site, which should have been there in the beginning?


Oh, plus we get the final build WITH that price. It's not like it's going to stop working when our subscriptions run out, as you make it seem. Get real.

Ahem...


Obviously the software lasts forever...

He never alluded to that...just in case you didn't read his full post.

-Keith

GandB
02-13-2009, 01:51 PM
A) it's $300 cheaper then waiting until the shipping version comes out (which you get with your membership). $395 now or $695 when it ships. Even better, now Newtek has guaranteed the $395 for next years membership for charter members.
B) I like to stay abreast with Lightwave development and experience new features as they are added
C) I like to test those new features, provide feedback on bugs with the software or how features are implemented so that I can play a role in shaping the development of Lightwave.
All good reasons to join if you're satisfied with what has been shown so far; or if you simply want to support NewTek (and have the cash to do so). :thumbsup:

Greenlaw
02-13-2009, 01:54 PM
If that's the case, buying HC membership now will give you approximately 3 months of usable, production ready software for $395.

And nine months of having a voice on the inside, helping to shape the final production ready version of CORE. That's better than waiting nine months and getting a final release that isn't at all what you were expecting or hoping for.

That's just my humble opinion of course; with all the crazy stuff going on in the world right now, nobody can really know how things will pan out nine months from now. :)

Greenlaw

geothefaust
02-13-2009, 01:58 PM
I did, obviously you didn't read mine. :rolleyes:


Perhaps he just didn't see the latest change to the Core site, which should have been there in the beginning?



Ahem...



He never alluded to that...just in case you didn't read his full post.

-Keith

wacom
02-13-2009, 02:03 PM
Don't be a bunch of fools.

Look, unless you really have the disposable income to go with another package (like XSI, MAX, or C4D with one of the bundles) you're only shooting yourself in the foot by not upgrading now. Even if half the feature list they've given so far comes true- it will still be the least inexpensive program in its class, and LW10 looks to be move'n on up.

What ever- there is cautious and then there is just stupid. Some of you people just wave a buck around in the air and expect any kind of "worker" to bend to your hyper consumer driven needs.

After CORE is out and fully demonstrated to the world I'm sure they'll have no trouble replacing you with people more than happy to pay the full sticker price for admission.

GandB
02-13-2009, 02:07 PM
I did, obviously you didn't read mine.
Sure I did; you said that he alluded to the software not working after the subscription ends...and I simply pointed out that you were wrong as he stated otherwise. :thumbsup:


After CORE is out and fully demonstrated to the world I'm sure they'll have no trouble replacing you with people more than happy to pay the full sticker price for admission.
Yes; calling people fools (and stupid) for wanting to actually see more of what they're asked to pay for is a great way to keep them around. What were we thinking?


Some of you people just wave a buck around in the air and expect any kind of "worker" to bend to your hyper consumer driven needs.
That's kind of how this process works. Though some of us are more forgiving than others.

wacom
02-13-2009, 02:13 PM
Well, then just pretend they didn't offer you a discount and wait and keep your mouth pursed like your wallet is. When it's out you can decide- and pay the full price.

There is an incentive here to upgrade now- if you don't like it then so be it- but nobody is forcing your hand.

Unless the whole program is broken- just the way it fundamentally will work, with nodes, is so much more ground breaking than most people here realize. What do you need them to do? Make a fluid solver demo that lasts four hours showing you how to build it up and code new nodes?

Oh- I see we need more bling for all the shinny penny pinchers out there and the iPhone crowd- hear that NT?!

rwhunt99
02-13-2009, 02:15 PM
I'm a bit dense, perhaps someone could straighten me out on something,
If I choose to wait till after the fourth quarter, can I still buy a membership for the next round at $395? or maybe $495?
Or, After that, it will always be $695? If you aren't a "Charter" member of Hardcore? :confused:

GandB
02-13-2009, 02:15 PM
You can berate us all you want; but it won't make NewTek any more money. I remember when this Forum used to be free from insults (with the exception of the occassional postings of Oddity and one or two others).

geothefaust
02-13-2009, 02:16 PM
LOL, man you stole the words right out of my mind. :D




Well, then just pretend they didn't offer you a discount and wait and keep your mouth pursed like your wallet is. When it's out you can decide- and pay the full price.

There is an incentive here to upgrade now- if you don't like it then so be it- but nobody is forcing your hand.

Unless the whole program is broken- just the way it fundamentally will work, with nodes, is so much more ground breaking than most people here realize. What do you need them to do? Make a fluid solver demo that lasts four hours showing you how to build it up and code new nodes?

Oh- I see we need more bling for all the shinny penny pinchers out there and the iPhone crowd- hear that NT?!
:ohmy:

GandB
02-13-2009, 02:16 PM
I believe that after the 31st of March, the price goes up to $495....then after release it's $695.

wacom
02-13-2009, 02:18 PM
That's kind of how this process works. Though some of us are more forgiving than others.

Or you can just go use another program and vote with your dollars instead of b_tching and moaning about it and holding up the line for everyone else.

Take a seat or move on so that the rest of us can get on board!

GandB
02-13-2009, 02:18 PM
LOL, man you stole the words right out of my mind.
Wow; that's really nice of you. What's the point in even trying to have a conversation around here?

hrgiger
02-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Yes; calling people fools for wanting to actually see more of what they're asked to pay for is a great way to keep them around. What were we thinking?

Hey GandB, I remember when you bought into LW a year or two ago. Haven't you seen how much they've done with 9.6 and 9.4 and 9.2 before that? Have you been on the beta forums, I can't recall? I wouldn't exactly call buying in now a blind move. You only have to see how far they've brought LW during the 9.x series to see that the current development team is quite capable. Perhaps a lot of us just see the potential when you remember that this is a whole new application with none of the limitations that the old architecture had. Not only Newtek, but now 3rd parties now have unlimited access to Core. If you can imagine the possibilities there, I think that's worth the cost of the membership by itself. But to each his own.

GandB
02-13-2009, 02:19 PM
@Wacom:

Just in case you missed it; this thread is about why people aren't buying into HC until more is shown. If you want to defend NT's marketing skills, try it in another thread that discusses it.

GandB
02-13-2009, 02:23 PM
Hey GandB, I remember when you bought into LW a year or two ago. Haven't you seen how much they've done with 9.6 and 9.4 and 9.2 before that? Have you been on the beta forums, I can't recall? I wouldn't exactly call buying in now a blind move. You only have to see how far they've brought LW during the 9.x series to see that the current development team is quite capable. Perhaps a lot of us just see the potential when you remember that this is a whole new application with none of the limitations that the old architecture had. Not only Newtek, but now 3rd parties now have unlimited access to Core. If you can imagine the possibilities there, I think that's worth the cost of the membership by itself. But to each his own.

Yes; I have seen what they've done, as well as all the free updates (and I was on the Beta Forums...some impressive stuff showcased by users). I came on board at the end of the v8 cycle, so I missed out on all that went on there. I appreciate NT's attention to their customers before.

What I don't appreciate here, is the attitudes that some people are giving those of us who want to see more before purchasing. Sorry; but in this economy, I can't afford to buy on faith. I still have yet to see what they have planned for Game Developers, as they don't seem to want to post on the subject.

I appreciate the civil discourse here, but not the condescending remarks I've seen so far.

-Keith

wacom
02-13-2009, 02:26 PM
You can berate us all you want; but it won't make NewTek any more money. I remember when this Forum used to be free from insults (with the exception of the occassional postings of Oddity and one or two others).

Well I remember those days too- oh and the reason was also because people didn't post insipid threads and highly uniformed comments on boards.

Sorry, I've been away from here and on other boards- and if you find this discourse discouraging then you should feel VERY lucky.

There is polite, and then there is honest. I'm just being honest.

Could you frame your argument for why you deserve more information on LWX from NT sooner than later in a way that makes you and the others no just look like people who want it both ways?

It's simple- pony up the cash now, get in on the know early, and get a discount or wait and forgo the discount. Buying now is A- a vote of confidence in B- that LW10 is going to be good and you're willing to help fund it's development. It's an investment and as with all investments there is a level of risk.

I guess you want the NYSE to give you a crystal ball too?

GandB
02-13-2009, 02:30 PM
Wow; forget it. I've got much better things to do with my time and money. I'll keep an eye out for what develops; but there's no point in dragging this out, as we apparently can't have a conversation.

wacom
02-13-2009, 02:31 PM
Let me also point out that you're a supporter of Luxology's marketing on 401- and there are only flashy pics on the site for that- no nuts and bolts demonstrations as far as I'm concerned. Would you like NT to just show you the gloss? If they had a shnazzy time line with cute well designed graphics would you buy CORE?!

adamredwoods
02-13-2009, 02:31 PM
I guess you want the NYSE to give you a crystal ball too?

Do they have a HardCORE membership, too?

hrgiger
02-13-2009, 02:31 PM
Sorry; but in this economy, I can't afford to buy on faith. I still have yet to see what they have planned for Game Developers, as they don't seem to want to post on the subject.
-Keith

I certainly understand that. I would have had to wait longer to buy into hardcore if it hadn't been for a nice tax refund. I'm sure we'll get more information soon on what Core has in store (I was a poet and didn't know it) and maybe it will convince more people that Core is worth investing in.
As a sidenote, I personally can't support Autodesk and the choices just got a lot slimmer since they took control of XSI so for the time being, I'm invested in Lightwave. Of the few things that have been shown, I've seen a few things about it that I liked in XSI so when you combine that with things I already like about LW(price being one of them), it's all pretty tempting so it wasn't that hard of a decision for me. I've been waiting for them to make such a bold move for years, so I have to at least see what they can do with a new code base.

serge
02-13-2009, 02:33 PM
Don't be a bunch of fools.

... you're only shooting yourself in the foot by not upgrading now...
Depends on what you need. For example, 9.6 may just have all the functionality you need, except for Hypervoxels. If improved Hypervoxels are not on the 'to do' list for the first CORE build it might be better to wait, no?

I will also join now for the reasons others have mentioned. But it's not necessarily stupid to wait for a list of what they intend to deliver on the first build.

adamredwoods
02-13-2009, 02:35 PM
Let me also point out that you're a supporter of Luxology's marketing on 401- and there are only flashy pics on the site for that- no nuts and bolts demonstrations as far as I'm concerned. Would you like NT to just show you the gloss? If they had a shnazzy time line with cute well designed graphics would you buy CORE?!

Flashy pics sell though. And since we're in the business of making flashy pics, it couldn't hurt to see what the product can do.

I do see a little Modo/Lightwave comparison happening here and there. Interesting to see what each side produces and when.

wacom
02-13-2009, 02:41 PM
I just know that the vast majority of these people either will not use CORE's capabilities and/or they're going to buy it anyway- so why should NT bother listening to them?

If LW7, 8, 9 works for you and your needs and that's why you're holding out- because it makes finical sense to do so under those means, then that is in no way stupid- but a very smart and practical decision. In fact, I think most people upgrade more often then need be as they are all caught up in feature lust.

If on the other hand you're just trying get them to give them more info than they wish do divulge at this time and trying to rush things ahead of time AND arguing that the discounts are pointless and make no sense- well then you're not looking at the big picture.

wacom
02-13-2009, 02:46 PM
Flashy pics sell though. And since we're in the business of making flashy pics, it couldn't hurt to see what the product can do.

I do see a little Modo/Lightwave comparison happening here and there. Interesting to see what each side produces and when.

I would argue that it depends on what part of the market you're going for. Most experienced users of other highend applications don't care about seeing nice renders. Tech demos, white papers, and hands on time are going to help them make the decision, not an "arteests" nice render.

IMHO- there is overlap with MODO and LW, just like there is with most 3D applications, but LW has, or will have, more in common with full fledged highend applications- and they need to market tho those demographics accordingly.

Just my opinion...

GandB
02-13-2009, 02:46 PM
I would have had to wait longer to buy into hardcore if it hadn't been for a nice tax refund.
We just had our 3rd child; so it's all gone for us. I was unemployed for a year and a half (now work as a Corrections Officer at a local Prison, as well as a member of the Michigan Army National Guard) and we are paying the bills we accrued over that time. Otherwise, I probably would have bought into it from day one.

I have to watch our expenditures now. I try to make my hobby pay for itself though.:thumbsup:

-Keith

KillMe
02-13-2009, 03:05 PM
I'm a bit dense, perhaps someone could straighten me out on something,
If I choose to wait till after the fourth quarter, can I still buy a membership for the next round at $395? or maybe $495?
Or, After that, it will always be $695? If you aren't a "Charter" member of Hardcore? :confused:

you join hardcore before 31 march you get it for $395 and will get the second year subscription at that price too

that subscription will always include at least 1 payed for release of the software

after 31st you will pay $495 for the subscription and its otherwise the same

if you dont subscribe you pay $695 for the upgrade and dont get any of the benefits of hardcore but you can always upgrade for that price no matter how many releases you miss

basically hardcore is a cheap upgrade with extras - jsut your paying for it upfront instead of waiting to see what the upgrade contains before paying your money - you have to trust newtek that core releases will be worth your money

way i look at it is i'm saving $300 and getting inside info and early builds and even a chance to stick my oar into the development if i have some ideas and feedback

looking at the competition i cant get another package that cheaply and i've pre-ordered from newtek in the past before for far less in the way of enducements since core looks like it will really push lw into the future

G-Man
02-13-2009, 04:52 PM
Jim answered my question and I'm fine with that. We should have some more peeks before the 31st. I just want to know if it is in a useable state (or will be) I know it won't be fully developed. Their spec list looks VERY impressive. If they come through with all of those features it should be awesome. I don't think it's out of line for anyone to want to see more than just viewport color changes, a modifier stack and a fancy way to make primitives.

TheRetiredSailo
02-13-2009, 04:55 PM
I am hesitant about any software subscription program and I hate to see NT go that route. Sure, we will pay a very reasonable price and get the first version of CORE. My concerns are further down the line. I do this for a hobby and I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to justify $495 per year (?) for subscription renewals. This is a case of "what-ifs."

What if the first version of CORE only has about half the features and/or tools that I want or need? Do I pay another $495 for the next year and hope that I get the tools in the next release?

What if I pay the subscription renewal fee and there is no new version during that year? Microsoft has had that problem with Software Assurance.

I really don't mean to get anyone excited here and I certainly don't want to hold anyone up from buying this. If I was using LW commercially then I would probably buy into the early offer without much hesitation. It would be a business expense that I would reclaim with profits from my business.

I need to get my head around this. If my hobby was golf then I would conceivably spend that much in golf games during the year. I could definitely spend that much if I went to NASCAR races or football games.

So, summed up, it isn't so much the idea of spending the $395 before March 31. It is however the idea of spending $495 each year thereafter.

TheRetiredSailo
02-13-2009, 05:03 PM
We just had our 3rd child; so it's all gone for us. I was unemployed for a year and a half (now work as a Corrections Officer at a local Prison, as well as a member of the Michigan Army National Guard) and we are paying the bills we accrued over that time. Otherwise, I probably would have bought into it from day one.

I have to watch our expenditures now. I try to make my hobby pay for itself though.:thumbsup:

-Keith
I'm retired Navy, 20 years plus. Not everyone recognizes the sacrifice that one makes while serving. Well done.

Myagi
02-13-2009, 05:20 PM
I am hesitant about any software subscription program and I hate to see NT go that route.

you don't have to subscribe to anything, you can buy/upgrade LW versions exactly like you can now. The membership is just an extra goodie for those that like it or benefit from it because they update frequently anyway. (and buying it without a subscription still includes bug fixing patches)


What if I pay the subscription renewal fee and there is no new version during that year? Microsoft has had that problem with Software Assurance.

your are guaranteed a (final) version for every subscription period, even if it is delayed


(those answers are based on statements straight from the horse's mouth :) )

tyrot
02-13-2009, 05:42 PM
dear wavers

They kicked Lightwave's rendering power...to its extreme with version 9.6. New CA introduced, fixed lots of problematic areas..but the question is

WHY?

Why now? They have given a crazy effort to 9.6 where will these codes will go? It is really hard for me to understand. To give away kick *** point release for free and then moving a new thing called Core...Where will go all those working hours on old Core..?

Come on guys they deserved 400 dollars just for point releases already ..you know it i know it.That is not the case... But i really really have doubts about how a new application will be ready till Q4..when we dont have even a decent presentation in Q1.

And i really wanna learn how fast they will code on new Core, which parts will be imported from old core.How will they pull this off. I know they have a plan but without going so deep, can someone explain some details...I am really seeing scary Modo Development Nightmares. I really wanna know....do they have a lovely CA solution and Instancing etc...already written in C++ and they will just transfer this to new Core...so then this is just an integration issue. If not...then we will wait...

Guys really we need more info..

Best

JeffrySG
02-13-2009, 05:45 PM
B) I like to stay abreast with Lightwave development...


Sorry I can't resist...


boobies, boobies, boobies.


Ok. I've gotten it out of my system. There has been so much tension on these forums lately...

;D

mav3rick
02-13-2009, 06:10 PM
dear wavers

They kicked Lightwave's rendering power...to its extreme with version 9.6. New CA introduced, fixed lots of problematic areas..but the question is

WHY?

Why now? They have given a crazy effort to 9.6 where will these codes will go? It is really hard for me to understand. To give away kick *** point release for free and then moving a new thing called Core...Where will go all those working hours on old Core..?

Come on guys they deserved 400 dollars just for point releases already ..you know it i know it.That is not the case... But i really really have doubts about how a new application will be ready till Q4..when we dont have even a decent presentation in Q1.

And i really wanna learn how fast they will code on new Core, which parts will be imported from old core.How will they pull this off. I know they have a plan but without going so deep, can someone explain some details...I am really seeing scary Modo Development Nightmares. I really wanna know....do they have a lovely CA solution and Instancing etc...already written in C++ and they will just transfer this to new Core...so then this is just an integration issue. If not...then we will wait...

Guys really we need more info..

Best

i agree with you ty... well just today i had conversation with guys that probable don't get the fact they made a steal on complete 9.x cycle with just ordering theyr copy of lw 8.5...
giving this 400 to NT after how many years of not giving any $$ is really not something worth of talking about... . most of guys posting here this kind of threads are either luxology fanboys or some1 that is not using lw for living or use it as 2nd tool and can live without it... today i had argue with guy that is thinking the same as author of this thread and best of all he is also luxo guy. not to mention he was on lw 9.x open beta without reporting bugs or asking feature req to make it better... to those and similar i really ask them to stick to other app of choice and dont bother us with their problems since i have clear vision why i give my 400 to NT .
ah yes as most of guys think it is not just money support but i want to be on core development from day 1 just to be sure i can help with my knowledge and experience that i gather in past 15 years doing 3d to make core the best package for 3d artists.

off record... did some1 notice great amount of new users with 10 - 20 posts in past 1 month.... wonder who are they.... new customers or the SHADOW fanboys spamming us with their life frustrations...

GandB
02-13-2009, 06:26 PM
I'm retired Navy, 20 years plus. Not everyone recognizes the sacrifice that one makes while serving. Well done.
No; you're right. Some people find it easier to judge you after watching some news footage, or just plain take you for granted. I only did one tour in Iraq (so far); many are on their 4th or 5th tour.

Thanks for your service as well. :thumbsup:

-Keith

John Jordan
02-13-2009, 06:29 PM
What you can expect is to pay more if you wait too long.

Sounds like a threat.

John Jordan
02-13-2009, 06:35 PM
You can berate us all you want; but it won't make NewTek any more money. I remember when this Forum used to be free from insults (with the exception of the occassional postings of Oddity and one or two others).

Agreed.

adamredwoods
02-13-2009, 06:42 PM
These threads seem to have too much steam, and tends to go nowhere.
I'm more of a wait-and-see guy.

We will see more LWCore videos by March 31, which is the deadline for the steal-deal. So no more posting crap until March 21. That would give 10 days of ranting and b*tching, which is better than months and months.

Patience, patience, patience!

fyrissian
02-13-2009, 06:47 PM
Awright, awright, let's keep this civil.

I'm in because I think it'll be great. And I will be delighted to try out the early versions as they march to the release version.

As for those who don't like the pricing deadline -- c'mon, it's software marketing 101. "Buy early, get a discount. Buy after we release, and you can still enjoy our regular pricing." Most software companies do this. They need revenue, and early adopters are an important part of the equation.

That said, I have no quarrel with those who want to see more before they commit. Software is tricky stuff -- sometimes it delivers on its promise, and sometimes it falls flat on its face. Me, I'm being an optimist, and assume that by Q4 LW Core will be a no-brainer for most current users (though by no means all), and a tempting prospect for many users of other engines. But the doubters all have their reasons for caution, and I respect that.

There's no need to call folks stupid or foolish because they have doubts. We've probably all been burned at one time or another for believing the "new and improved" hype from this or that marketing scheme. I'm sure between now and March 31 NewTek will have more show-and-tell to help assuage some of those doubts. Even then, however, some will not be convinced and will wait until it's "done" before deciding. That's their prerogative. No need for us optimists to get all prickly -- not now, and not when, come Q4, some *still* say "not good enough for me".

Peace, y'all.

Paul Brunson
02-13-2009, 07:12 PM
Here's another reason to buy into hardcore before March 31st. Or at least I think its a good reason. :)

The members of hardcore are going to be far more capable in using Lightwave 10 than the users who wait and buy in when its released in Q4.

While the developers promise it will still feel familiar, we're talking about some pretty radical changes in Core. I for one appreciate the oppurtunity to jump in and learn some of that new stuff before the masses.

Astrocom
02-13-2009, 07:36 PM
I am not a regular here although I own LW since 7.5 and I don't use it much even though I have 9.x, Like many I am also sitting on the fence and would like to pick up on LW again and yeah $395 is a bargain for a full app. But looking at 9.6 now, its logical to want to know where CORE stands.

I think I would eventually put my money down but like the fence sitters, I just want to understand where we are and where we will be going with whenever we jump into the bandwagon.

Say if I join now I pay $395 and I get the full CORE app when it comes out in Q4. Next year I pay another $395 to renew my previlege. I will get a new release during the 2nd active membership year and so on .....

... I understand that once you own CORE 1.X, subsequent updates will be free as what we all know is the way LW free updates are. But if it takes more than a year to get from 9.X to 9.6, I ain't sure we will be getting CORE 2.X in the 2nd year. So isn't it the same as paying ($395 x2) for the first version of CORE and getting CORE 1.X even in the 2nd year? Of course we'd all be happy if CORE 2.0 can be release within the 2nd year.

Of course this is only hypothetical at this point but that is where I am trying to straighten out my finances.

To all who participate since day one because you find it important to be involved as the dev progress, I'd say that is priceless and does not affect my sprained brain trying to figure out how this will pan out.

hrgiger
02-13-2009, 07:36 PM
The members of hardcore are going to be far more capable in using Lightwave 10 than the users who wait and buy in when its released in Q4.

While the developers promise it will still feel familiar, we're talking about some pretty radical changes in Core. I for one appreciate the oppurtunity to jump in and learn some of that new stuff before the masses.

Yes, that's true. As part of your membership, you're supposed to receive Core training videos. Core just by it's very nature will be a very different upgrade to Lightwave and there will be lots of new concepts for those who are pretty used to the way things work currently in LW.

wsantiago
02-13-2009, 07:38 PM
Awright, awright, let's keep this civil.

I'm in because I think it'll be great. And I will be delighted to try out the early versions as they march to the release version.

As for those who don't like the pricing deadline -- c'mon, it's software marketing 101. "Buy early, get a discount. Buy after we release, and you can still enjoy our regular pricing." Most software companies do this. They need revenue, and early adopters are an important part of the equation.

That said, I have no quarrel with those who want to see more before they commit. Software is tricky stuff -- sometimes it delivers on its promise, and sometimes it falls flat on its face. Me, I'm being an optimist, and assume that by Q4 LW Core will be a no-brainer for most current users (though by no means all), and a tempting prospect for many users of other engines. But the doubters all have their reasons for caution, and I respect that.

There's no need to call folks stupid or foolish because they have doubts. We've probably all been burned at one time or another for believing the "new and improved" hype from this or that marketing scheme. I'm sure between now and March 31 NewTek will have more show-and-tell to help assuage some of those doubts. Even then, however, some will not be convinced and will wait until it's "done" before deciding. That's their prerogative. No need for us optimists to get all prickly -- not now, and not when, come Q4, some *still* say "not good enough for me".

Peace, y'all.

Nice To See That One Person Here Has Common Sense.

JMCarrigan
02-13-2009, 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyrissian View Post
Awright, awright, let's keep this civil.

I'm in because I think it'll be great. And I will be delighted to try out the early versions as they march to the release version.

As for those who don't like the pricing deadline -- c'mon, it's software marketing 101. "Buy early, get a discount. Buy after we release, and you can still enjoy our regular pricing." Most software companies do this. They need revenue, and early adopters are an important part of the equation.

That said, I have no quarrel with those who want to see more before they commit. Software is tricky stuff -- sometimes it delivers on its promise, and sometimes it falls flat on its face. Me, I'm being an optimist, and assume that by Q4 LW Core will be a no-brainer for most current users (though by no means all), and a tempting prospect for many users of other engines. But the doubters all have their reasons for caution, and I respect that.

There's no need to call folks stupid or foolish because they have doubts. We've probably all been burned at one time or another for believing the "new and improved" hype from this or that marketing scheme. I'm sure between now and March 31 NewTek will have more show-and-tell to help assuage some of those doubts. Even then, however, some will not be convinced and will wait until it's "done" before deciding. That's their prerogative. No need for us optimists to get all prickly -- not now, and not when, come Q4, some *still* say "not good enough for me".

Peace, y'all.
Nice To See That One Person Here Has Common Sense.

HERE HERE! Or is that, "Hear hear?"

Sekhar
02-13-2009, 09:44 PM
But if it takes more than a year to get from 9.X to 9.6, I ain't sure we will be getting CORE 2.X in the 2nd year. So isn't it the same as paying ($395 x2) for the first version of CORE and getting CORE 1.X even in the 2nd year? Of course we'd all be happy if CORE 2.0 can be release within the 2nd year.

NewTek guarantees one release per each yearly subscription, see http://www.newtek.com/core.

Sarford
02-14-2009, 05:31 AM
...I don't think it's out of line for anyone to want to see more than just viewport color changes, a modifier stack and a fancy way to make primitives.

The question is what will be enough to satisfy these doubters? What do you need to see to be satisfied, and is it reasonable to ask for that NOW, seeing how short CORE has been in development?
I think, like sBowie has said before, that a lot of these fencers aren't happy until what they are shown is a version of a release candidate.

In my vision, the $400 is a leap-of-faith price. If you don't have that faith, than just sit and wait, it'll be more expensive, but at least you'll know better what you're buying.

I do understand that people with new-tek religion doubts want to see more, but the demand-or-else-I-don't-join attitude is a bit over board here.

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 06:34 AM
The question is what will be enough to satisfy these doubters? What do you need to see to be satisfied, and is it reasonable to ask for that NOW, seeing how short CORE has been in development?
I think, like sBowie has said before, that a lot of these fencers aren't happy until what they are shown is a version of a release candidate.

In my vision, the $400 is a leap-of-faith price. If you don't have that faith, than just sit and wait, it'll be more expensive, but at least you'll know better what you're buying.

I do understand that people with new-tek religion doubts want to see more, but the demand-or-else-I-don't-join attitude is a bit over board here.

Not really. They are selling a product due for RELEASE q4. Please show us everything it can do now. I'm happy to part with money before the march31 deadline, provided we get more information that shows there is something there other than max1 features from over 10 years ago.

iainbyoung
02-14-2009, 06:39 AM
I've made the leap of faith this morning, but I do understand the doubters (I had a good long hard think myself).

Perhaps just a list of planned new features (that don't already exist in 9.6) might go some way in tempting people in :)

achrystie
02-14-2009, 07:54 AM
I've spent some time thinking about the whole upgrade, and I think what I need to see is that the progression of development makes sense, to make CORE useful to me short term, and in the final Q4 release. I mean the ultimate IDEAL is that every tool from 9.6 is available in CORE by Q4 in "some" updated and more robust form, however, this may not be a feasible option for development time.

Therefore, the simple answer is, I have Lightwave 9.6. It does "most" if not everything I need it to do, it's just that a lot of the things it does not necessarily do as well as it could. The one thing it does REALLY well, some could argue best in the business, is create finalized renders, and therefore, I'm inclined to say that I don't really give a rats *** what the rendering is like in CORE, as that could wait and make CORE useful to me in conjunction with 9.6, if they develop the product on the proper cycle.

What I'm looking to see is that Newtek's development "plan" is laid out similar to this:

Focus on tools that compliment Lightwave 9.6 and complement each other "the most" internally. These tools would be:
New robust modeling tools that work during animation.
Animation tools (including robust character tools for IK, FK, rigging, autorig, morphs, etc)
Dynamics (hard body, soft body, cloth, hair, and whatever else they plan to implement internally).
This could also include brushed sculpting and texture painting, but that would be a bonus in my mind.
While doing this development, they need to maintain a "strong link" to Lightwave 9.6 via collada.
Then I can use 9.6 for shaders, particle effects, and rendering.
While I'd agree that of the last three, particle effects need some work in LW 9.6, it seems it would make sense to wait until the renderer is integrated "fully and robustly" to implement that.

Of course if the collada format allows for solid transfer of everything, it would be even better to see the most work go into including shaders/texturing and particles in CORE as well, with the fully integrated rendering being the last target. I think they could even theoretically create a "live link" to LW9.6 to pull it off.

Essentially, if I'm forced to choose, I'd pick Lightwave 9.6 as the "render box" and hope that most of the effort goes into "everything else" in the more immediate future. Giving me the "creation tools" allows me to USE CORE for something, and then I can dump it into 9.6 to use VIPER OR FPRIME for surfacing, set up the particle effects in the scene, and use the render farm I already have setup to create the final images/animations. The problem, of course, is that Lightwave's renderer IS it's prime selling point, so that requires not just the developers, but a large amount of the user base to be on board with the same ideas, and, I'm inclined to say that very well may not be the case. A lot of the current user base "may" cry RENDERER, RENDERER, RENDERER! because that is almost all they use Lightwave for, and that may slow progress in other areas, to the detriment of the Lightwave's short term advancement in markets where it is currently weak IMO.

This also leads me to say that I want to see an SDK sooner rather than later, including information on how to make use of Python. I think a LOT of the tools for modeling and animation can be made quickly as plugins, as long as the "base" items are in CORE to leverage, which includes a bone system, so no matter what happens, that is always an option for myself, as well as other developers out there to create tools, even if they are "stop gap" tools.

mav3rick
02-14-2009, 08:15 AM
Not really. They are selling a product due for RELEASE q4. Please show us everything it can do now. I'm happy to part with money before the march31 deadline, provided we get more information that shows there is something there other than max1 features from over 10 years ago.

if you think CORE is on level of max1 features i think it is pointless to debate on what you expect of core.... newtek for sure will not make lw core drawback compared to lightwave 9.x and lw 9.x is far from max 1.0 features .... so lw core can be only better ... history , instances, new core, phyton , mac win linux , customize interface, multithread/gpu aware and new physics is nough to decide go core for just 400 $. Also what bothers me why most of people have fear if NT will deliver what they promisse. After old NT team left things just got LOT BETTER for newtek and LW users in general. New development team bring what they promissed to users in 9.x cycle . So if you think they will take money and run than i really see no reson you go newtek anymore.... again if you purchased lw 8.x you have received 9.x for free and not just that.. you have received SO MUCH with free upgrade (new camera, light api, tremendous render engine update, nodes, cc, glsl shaders, ffx, joints actually hell lot of things.....). that itself is a steal... if you are not interested in updating core now for funny 400$ i really dont feel you will be interested in lw core at all later so why bother debating how you will not update it cause it is on max 1.0 feature level. on qt 4 they said it will be production ready not released.. means it can be delayed until bugs are clean out from that feture (production ready) version is .... according to lw 9.x cycle it could delay few months later than qt 4 but since new core is lot cleaner and easier to handle compared to 9.x i feel they will show us really fast implementing/fixing of tools inside core....
and how about you wait till than... if you will really like it how it turned out as final product than update for 6xx $... not bad just 200 more... for all this... if not save your money for tool you prefer more... you know which one ;)

Sarford
02-14-2009, 08:19 AM
They are selling a product due for RELEASE q4. Please show us everything it can do now.

I don't realy see the connection between those two. They don't stop selling the 31st of march. You still can buy later in the year when more informaton will be available. Why isn't that good enough for you?

mav3rick
02-14-2009, 08:23 AM
I don't realy see the connection between those two. They don't stop selling the 31st of march. You still can buy later in the year when more informaton will be available. Why isn't that good enough for you?

well seems he is upset to give 200 more on update later this year ( if he want to ).... and according he is workin on big studio i dont see 200 is big deal for him... i bet he spend more on gasoline per month

Cageman
02-14-2009, 08:32 AM
I'm happy to part with money before the march31 deadline, provided we get more information that shows there is something there other than max1 features from over 10 years ago.

:rolleyes:

That's an interresting comment, provided with the fact that any other version of LightWave doesn't have any of those features shown in the video.

I understand that you want to see other things, but... as far as I'm concerned, CORE V1.0 will probably not have many features that aren't avaliable in other applications. However, I believe that all those limitations that classic LW have will be gone, and hopefully the workflow will be similar to LW9.6 minus the limitations. That is what I'm interrested in... having an app with Maya/Houdini flexibility, but ALSO the easy workflow found in classic LW.

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 09:03 AM
newtek for sure will not make lw core drawback compared to lightwave 9.x

Your entire faith in this new app rests on this comment, which until they demonstrate this (which is what I've been saying) it's just wishful thinking. We have a 'target' for what it will be able to do (tech sheet) and a demo video showing features available for 10 years in other apps. I would like to see something between the wishlist and the demo.

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 09:05 AM
However, I believe that all those limitations that classic LW have will be gone, and hopefully the workflow will be similar to LW9.6 minus the limitations.

It's the 'hopefully' part im skeptical about. They just need to explain what they plan to ship core 1.0 q4 with for features.

mav3rick
02-14-2009, 09:10 AM
It's the 'hopefully' part im skeptical about. They just need to explain what they plan to ship core 1.0 q4 with for features.

so wait till q4 and you will know.... why do we have to read the same comment from you for past 2 weeks ?
why just you dont come back on NT forum same time next year ?

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 09:13 AM
Look. I've explained this before. I find core is interesting. So far the information other than the written tech sheet has been lackluster when compared to other apps a decade ago. I would like a slightly more concrete idea of what 1695/395 whatever gets you come q4. Right now we have a brand new app, with demonstrated history, robust gui code, some modelling tools, and instancing. There has been no mention about how core 1.0 will stack up against lw9.6 featurewise or workflow 'feel'. As far as I can tell it will have somewhere between what they have demoed to this point, and the full feature set including new things (history, instances). I'm just asking where in that range they are planning to ship a q4 core. If they explain that sufficiently before march31, I'm in. (I'm talking my personal copy, at work we wont touch this until probably v2 in 2010 for production, if then) If not, ill wait.

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 09:15 AM
so wait till q4 and you will know.... why do we have to read the same comment from you for past 2 weeks ?
why just you dont come back on NT forum same time next year ?

I word it slightly differently each time. :) Because I'd like to see Newtek do well with this, and if they want more people on board they have to give us more. And since Mr. Plant has already said they intend to provide new videos very soon, we're good.

mav3rick
02-14-2009, 09:19 AM
well than stick to that and wait without makin so much drama

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 09:22 AM
well than stick to that and wait without makin so much drama

Comment removed, I can put the drama on hold until we see what the kool-aid promises to bring to us. :) I await more info before drinking the kool-aid. I agree with the original poster.

TheRetiredSailo
02-14-2009, 09:25 AM
It's the 'hopefully' part im skeptical about. They just need to explain what they plan to ship core 1.0 q4 with for features.

That's the tricky thing about software development and I don't blame NewTek for being quiet about the details. I am positive that the answer you want is known to the dev team. After all, surely they know where they are going and what their goals are. Releasing those detailed goals to the public however is a risk in more ways than one.

First, what if problems are encountered and they don't get tools a, b & g into the product by release time. Now they've broken their promise if they have publicly promised those tools or features. This hurts their credibility.

Second, let's say that there is a new tool or feature (more advanced and capable UV mapping for example) planned for CORE. If they publicly announce it now then I guarantee that a discussion at Autodesk next week will be how to improve UV mapping in Max, Maya and XSI to stay/get ahead of NewTek before they release CORE in Q4. What's worse, let's say that they can't deliver on the feature, now they're even worse off if Autodesk (or anyone else for that matter) figures out how to do.

Sure, they released some new stuff in the demo. That is obviously a component that they have developed and are sure that they can deliver. Time to market will likely be very short as I expect that those features will be in the first beta. Probably not much chance of the competition upstaging them before the 1st beta release.

As tempting as it may be to start rumors, I just made up the part about advanced UV mapping cabability. :)

GandB
02-14-2009, 09:26 AM
so wait till q4 and you will know.... why do we have to read the same comment from you for past 2 weeks ?
Well; if you don't like what some of us have to say, you can simply block that particular person on the forums and you won't have to see the "offending" comments. Otherwise; I believe people are free to question what's going on, just as you are free to back up Core unconditionally (not that there's anything wrong with that). :thumbsup:

Personally; when it's all said and done, whether or not I will/can buy into the Core before the time's up (if not in time for the savings, then I'll wait till the version I like comes along), I hope that it comes in line with the other apps out there that have an integrated interface for layout and modeler...as well as the basic feature set of all the others. It sounds like 3rd parties will get a good crack at filling in the gaps. I hope that viper is replaced by an integrated FPrime of sorts. I especially hope (I know, broken record) that game dev is given it's due attention. I PMed Jim a messege, with one of the links being the Game Dev and Core thread that I started. Hopefully in the coming months, answers will arrive.

@Mike_RB: I didn't know your studio worked on the Iron Man movie....sweet work, and nice presentation on the site. :thumbsup:

-Keith

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 09:27 AM
First, what if problems are encountered and they don't get tools a, b & g into the product by release time. Now they've broken their promise if they have publicly promised those tools or features. This hurts their credibility.

I'm just saying that they are leaning too far to the other side right now. They have promised nothing really and are taking peoples money with a q4 ship date.

Mike_RB
02-14-2009, 09:29 AM
Well; if you don't like what some of us have to say, you can simply block that particular person on the forums and you won't have to see the "offending" comments. Otherwise; I believe people are free to question what's going on, just as you are free to back up Core unconditionally (not that there's anything wrong with that). :thumbsup:

Exactly.

Keith, yeah I was the lead 3d on the Mark1 suit. We had about 50 shots total with 25 of them being CG suits. There is a nice segment on the making of stuff about The Embassy. Rendered in LW 9.3ish

mav3rick
02-14-2009, 09:29 AM
no problem as far all of you that have upgrade dilema post in single thread and not open 10 threads all round NT forum

Nicolas Jordan
02-14-2009, 09:34 AM
... I understand that once you own CORE 1.X, subsequent updates will be free as what we all know is the way LW free updates are. But if it takes more than a year to get from 9.X to 9.6, I ain't sure we will be getting CORE 2.X in the 2nd year. So isn't it the same as paying ($395 x2) for the first version of CORE and getting CORE 1.X even in the 2nd year? Of course we'd all be happy if CORE 2.0 can be release within the 2nd year.


In reality Newtek can call any release anything they want. They could add 10 features to Core after the first release and call it Core 1.5 or 2.0 and we wouldn't know the difference. Just like 9.2 could have been called 9.5 and they could have not released 9.3 at all and released everything up to 9.6 as Lightwave 10 if they wanted to and we wouldn't know the difference.

cresshead
02-14-2009, 10:14 AM
i think mike raises some valid points...maybe not so much for lightwave users staying onboard the newtek train and upgrading to core but what about >


New users of lightwave...those yet to have ANY app...
maya users
3dsmax users
xsi users
cinema4d users
houdini apprentice users
blender users


that's a whole barrel load of potential people having a look see at the 'core thing' with NO interest in lightwave 9.6 at all..

if your a student running say the edu version of 3dsmax or maya and are looking for a commercial app then core does look from what we've seen so far much like a 3dsmax clone app which is good as it's only around 33% the cost of say max.http://www.cresshead.com/images/max3_text_ui_grab_new.jpg

see i.u grab i made form max with the text based custom u.i that shipped on max 3 back in 1999...looks like a close cousin on lightwave core!

GandB
02-14-2009, 10:28 AM
no problem as far all of you that have upgrade dilema post in single thread and not open 10 threads all round NT forum
Which is what was attempted here; until those from the "other side of the fence" decided to start arguing here. Therefore it's only fair that we comment in the other threads....right? :thumbsup:

cresshead
02-14-2009, 10:49 AM
Which is what was attempted here; until those from the "other side of the fence" decided to start arguing here. Therefore it's only fair that we comment in the other threads....right? :thumbsup:

other side of the fence?

we're all 3d artists right?....what fence?:agree:

Sarford
02-14-2009, 10:58 AM
other side of the fence?

we're all 3d artists right?....what fence?:agree:

Wel the fence seperating the members from the non-members. Since we are now part of an elite club, surely we are the better persons, right ;)

Orimar
02-14-2009, 11:09 AM
Which is what was attempted here; until those from the "other side of the fence" decided to start arguing here. Therefore it's only fair that we comment in the other threads....right? :thumbsup:

Yeah, that's fair. Highly annoying, but fair--the "fence" notwithstanding.

cresshead
02-14-2009, 11:09 AM
oohh i'm elite ...cool! [I'm already a Hardcore member]

well with luck newtek will out more info before april arrives for those 'sitting on the fence' wanting to see how lw core differes from 3dsmax/maya/xsi/cinema and also what's similar..so far with the tiny bit of info it does appear to e treading a similar path to 3dsmax.

no doubt newtek have a few surprises up their sleeve...maybe they're playing core down for a while..till all the info on modo401 and 3dsmax 2010 has been let loose.

GandB
02-14-2009, 12:07 PM
we're all 3d artists right?....what fence?
The one that apparently separates those that want to see more, with those that are satisfied enough to purchase right now.


Yeah, that's fair. Highly annoying, but fair--the "fence" notwithstanding.
Just as annoying as people reffering to those who still have questions as "foolish or stupid", or just plain berating them.

Now; there's an idea for a render..."The Fence: Believers/Fanboys Vs. Non-Believers/Skeptics" (kind of a "Hatfields and McCoys" take-off) :D


well with luck newtek will out more info before april arrives for those 'sitting on the fence' wanting to see how lw core differes from 3dsmax/maya/xsi/cinema and also what's similar
Let's hope so...

-Keith

cresshead
02-14-2009, 12:10 PM
The one that apparently separates those that want to see more, with those that are satisfied enough to purchase right now.


Just as annoying as people reffering to those who still have questions as "foolish or stupid", or just plain berating them.

Now; there's an idea for a render..."The Fence: Believers/Fanboys Vs. Non-Believers/Fanboys" :D


Let's hope so...

-Keith

hey i bought in AND want to see more...what's all the religous themed 'believer' nonsense anyhow...newtek's not a religion it's a company making 3d software...:screwy:

GandB
02-14-2009, 12:12 PM
what's all the religous themed 'believer' nonsense anyhow...newtek's not a religion it's a company making 3d software...
It's not?! Somebody fed me a line then... :stumped:

Cageman
02-14-2009, 12:31 PM
It's the 'hopefully' part im skeptical about. They just need to explain what they plan to ship core 1.0 q4 with for features.

Yeah... and that is why I joined HardCORE. I want to make sure that my voice is heard regarding implementations.

Cageman
02-14-2009, 12:43 PM
i think mike raises some valid points...maybe not so much for lightwave users staying onboard the newtek train and upgrading to core but what about >


New users of lightwave...those yet to have ANY app...
maya users
3dsmax users
xsi users
cinema4d users
houdini apprentice users
blender users


that's a whole barrel load of potential people having a look see at the 'core thing' with NO interest in lightwave 9.6 at all..



Ohh... but pretty much everyone that I've been speaking about CORE with are interrested to see where it is going. And I'm talking about hardcore Maya users now. This is based on the FAQ and the reveal video. Oh, and I belive we have a couple of those who left LW in 7.5/8.0 days who already have signed up for CORE. They've been using either XSI or Maya since then...



see i.u grab i made form max with the text based custom u.i that shipped on max 3 back in 1999...looks like a close cousin on lightwave core!

Uhm...

Yeah... lets see some mockups on what history/modifier stacks should look like... Cress, you are first..

I want to see a completely new approach to how a history/modifier stack is displayed to the user. Remember you have to inovate on this one... any industry standard is NOT good enough...

*sigh*

Orimar
02-14-2009, 12:48 PM
Yeah... and that is why I joined HardCORE. I want to make sure that my voice is heard regarding implementations.

Yes sir, Cageman, that is compelling and one of the reasons I am joining.

(BTW, I enjoyed your Janus/exrTrader tutorial series; very well done and helpful. Thanks.)

mccabejc
02-14-2009, 02:15 PM
I realize folks are putting their faith in NT, presumably because they've always delivered an industry-leading product in LW. Y'know, like their...um...and their...well...

Okay, in any case, I'm sure you have your reasons...

But before you go off getting all giggly, keep in mind something that has been mentioned before: we're going to be in an extremely bad economy for the foreseeable future. Really bad. And unless NT has some economy-proof mojo going for it, it can't help but be affected in the same way that most companies have (or will). Personally, I'm not holding out much hope that any of my software applications will have significant development in the next year or two. I'm guessing they'll all be cutting back.

In the meantime I'll be spending my time on the high speed train from LA to Vegas that was thrown into the "stimulus" package at the last minute yesterday. Pretty cool. Oh, wait...after all the environmental impact studies and hearings and stuff, that probably won't be for another 10-15 years.

Okay, so maybe I'll have to go read the plan and see if there was anything in there for "Core Development".

Cageman
02-14-2009, 02:21 PM
I realize folks are putting their faith in NT, presumably because they've always delivered an industry-leading product in LW. Y'know, like their...um...and their...well...



LOL...

Well.. the renderer is pretty good, the vertex map implementation is one of the best in the industry and the realtime Nodal displacement is also one of the best I've used (although, it is very slow).

So... well... yeah...

:)

Stooch
02-14-2009, 08:27 PM
Wow... i see a very strong sense of fanboism going on here. So ill throw in my 2cents.

i too am holding out until i see the full picture. All I have seen so far is a very, very intense buildup from NT followed by a gigantic FAIL. Now im not naive and will not equate the marketing failure with their engineers. However I dont think its at all unreasonable to expect a more solid disclosure about what exactly the first release of core will include...

this goes for both luxology and newtek. Im a pro user who doesnt have to pay for his tools. all of my software is purchased by my employers. any purchases i make for home use are completely out of desire to support the programmers who make these tools. They are not mission critical purchases. HOWEVER for newtek and luxology, far more is at stake if i am not impressed with the apps. Because I tend to influence what my employers buy... and that translates to far more sales than just a single license...

anyway, I dont find anything wrong with this thread, other than some people who need to just chill and find a better way to support NT instead of engaging in a posting piss fest. Go buy another license or something.

btw. technically if i hold off, wouldnt I be doing NT a huge favor by paying them an ultimately higher price? it seems taht all the early adopters are the real cheapskates here, trying to get something for nothing...

Cageman
02-14-2009, 08:38 PM
it seems taht all the early adopters are the real cheapskates here, trying to get something for nothing...

Maybe you shouldn't say ALL... I can only speak for myself, but the MAIN reason I go in early is because I want to be able to make my voice heard regarding the developement. It is true that we who do so save some money in the end... however, we may also make a difference for NewTek to ship a really good product.

Stooch
02-14-2009, 08:48 PM
Maybe you shouldn't say ALL... I can only speak for myself, but the MAIN reason I go in early is because I want to be able to make my voice heard regarding the developement. It is true that we who do so save some money in the end... however, we may also make a difference for NewTek to ship a really good product.

you MAY be a helper and you MAY be a cheapskate. you MAY help newtek or you MAY lead them astray. You MAY be a contributor or you MAY be a distraction.
If you are defending some of the BS that was directed at the original poster, you MAY be hurting NT in the long run.

How about letting NT handle the questions in this thread? for those of you who have so much faith in newteks abilities, why not trust that they can come up with answers without your ...uh... contributions.

Cageman
02-14-2009, 09:20 PM
How about letting NT handle the questions in this thread?

:)

They have already done that. If you look at the reveal video you'll notice that they say they are going to show the things the original poster asked about. And this information was actually avaliable in the original reveal video as well.

I would say that this thread is about two things:

1) Frustration from people who can't take in information given to them so they start threads all over the place and whine.

2) People who, apparently, have taken the info and are waiting for the next steps from NT, but end up frustrated by all the whining.

:)

Regarding people who need more info before joining/not joining, I can fully understand them as well. They may not know the things I know... and with that said, I can't say more. ;)

Stooch
02-14-2009, 09:51 PM
:)
They may not know the things I know... and with that said, I can't say more. ;)

or they just know a whole lot more.

Cageman
02-15-2009, 04:41 AM
or they just know a whole lot more.

I doubt that very much, yes.

:)

hrgiger
02-15-2009, 04:56 AM
btw. technically if i hold off, wouldnt I be doing NT a huge favor by paying them an ultimately higher price? it seems taht all the early adopters are the real cheapskates here, trying to get something for nothing...

That's probably true to a point, but Newtek is getting a few things by having people buy now. For one, they're insuring a regular infusion of cash each year by the people who buy an annual membership. With 9.x and below, their regular customers would upgrade only when a paid update was available. That could be 2 or 3 years depending on how development went. Up until now, they've been depending on new sales between paid updates and we all know that Newtek isn't exactly an industry leader when it comes to marketing their software. They're also getting a large pool of software testers who will help find a lot of issues with the software they may not have found otherwise.
Yes, I agree with you Stooch there is a lot of fanboyism about this thing before we've seen too much. I've bought in but it's not out of a sense of loyalty to Newtek. I have realistic expectations out of what I can expect from Core. I'm not expecting an XSI in Q4. In fact, I'll be surprised if it's Q4 when it's released and I expect it to be light on features. But that's ok, I understand that it's going to take some time to rebuild an entire application from scratch. The important thing is we finally have an integrated modern application that has an open SDK for third party development. All this provides for a good future for Lightwave. Oh, that and I'm a cheapskate.

Also- [email protected] Autodesk.

Cageman
02-15-2009, 05:25 AM
I have realistic expectations out of what I can expect from Core. I'm not expecting an XSI in Q4. In fact, I'll be surprised if it's Q4 when it's released and I expect it to be light on features.

Oh yes... I feel I have to come clear with my expectations as well. So I quoted you for 100% agreement. With some luck and really hard work by the LW-dev team we may see a CORE V1.0 in Q4 that has similar functionality/usability compared to LW9.6, of course, minus the limitations found in classic LW (which means that clever coders/scripters may be able to make their own tools that fills the gaps until NewTek are up to speed). I don't expect to see a fully working dynamics environment in this timeframe. What I do expect to see is a solid Modeling environment, with rendering, ontop of a very stable architecture for future developement.

hrgiger
02-15-2009, 05:36 AM
With some luck and really hard work by the LW-dev team we may see a CORE V1.0 in Q4 that has similar functionality/usability compared to LW9.6

I think luck is underselling it. I would put it closer to a miracle. But as I said, that's ok with me because the most important thing is that the ground work for a powerful application has been built. It's like buying the house you always wanted. I can live in my 2 bedroom apartment (layout and modeler 9.6) while my mansion is being constructed (Core).

mccabejc
02-15-2009, 08:34 AM
With some luck and really hard work by the LW-dev team we may see a CORE V1.0 in Q4 that has similar functionality/usability compared to LW9.6...

Can you name any 3D application, with a comparable sized development team, where that has happened in a comparable amount of time (which appears to be about 3 years)? How about Modo? Or Messiah? Or even Lightwave itself?

Even if, somehow, LW suddenly got a huge infusion of developers, I just don't see it. I don't know where you folks are getting all of your optimism.

TheRetiredSailo
02-15-2009, 08:47 AM
Can you name any 3D application, with a comparable sized development team, where that has happened in a comparable amount of time (which appears to be about 3 years)? How about Modo? Or Messiah? Or even Lightwave itself?

Even if, somehow, LW suddenly got a huge infusion of developers, I just don't see it. I don't know where you folks are getting all of your optimism.

Perhaps they are testers for NewTek and are under a NDA. If that's the case (and I say if because this is pure speculation) then they may have seen first hand what is ready and what isn't.

cresshead
02-15-2009, 09:11 AM
how BIG is the dev team on lightwave core...i only think NEWTEK know that...us early adopters will have to wait for the beta and then open up the about box on the app and see who's listed...

as for 'cheapskates'..well i am and i'm not!...i've got 1 seat on hardcore and i'm WAITING for my other seat so i'll probably pay full...newtek will have the best of both options from me if this app plays [pays] out right long term.

Ernest
02-15-2009, 09:45 AM
For my part I like to know if we get a full application with 1.0? is there animation? modeling? rendering? or have we to wait till next paid update? I know from many apps, they dont have full features in 1.0! Newtek dont promised we get a full app with 1.0! and as I know many years back Maya1.0 was not productionready, even XSI they have to bundle the 1.0 with SI3.8 because there was no polygon tools in xsi1.0
It doesn't really matter. If Core is the application we have always wanted to work inside of, we have to get 1.0 regardless of how complete it is. If not, it will never be complete and we will never be able to use it. If Core does not seem like an application you'd really want to use, that would still be true even if it was complete.

I don't understand this whole argument. I mean, I can understand people getting into hardcore now. They want to support the developers, get the cheaper price, influence the development, get to know the tool before any else, some even enjoy beta testing. I can also understand people who try to convince others to get into Hardcore now. They want the application to be as bug-free as humanly possible and that can only be achieved with many beta testers working in different ways. It also gives NT more resources so the work can move faster. I can also understand those who don't want to get Core until there is more information. They are fine using 9.6 (or their non-NT tool) and don't want to pay for something unless it's definitely an improvement over that. They can make more than $300 with their $400 in 9 months.They are considering moving to another application and want to be sure that Core will be better than the alternatives. They do not invest in ventures that present a risk. I can also understand people who don't ever want to get Core. Different artists enjoy different workflows and no application will ever appeal to every single artist.

What I cannot understand is the people who try to convince others that it's not a good idea to get Core now. What is the possible benefit or motivation behind that? Besides the competition sending Brendan Frasier to make sure that Michael Keaton does not sell the current product so that the DLX will never see the light of day, it just baffles me. (And make no mistake about it, a DLX it is).

If what has been announced has not excited someone into wanting to buy the product, what in the world motivates that person to do anything else but to wait dispassionately and quietly until more information (or the final product) is released?

Announcing your support for Core and announcing your lack of support for Core are not the same thing. One serves a purpose for the supporter. The other one works against the non-supporter himself. The less resources NT gets, the longer it will take Core to get to a point where you can support it as well.


I don't know where you folks are getting all of your optimism.
Perhaps you remember that when LW9 was getting ready to come out, Lightwave's renderer was not only the joke of the 3D industry but even of the LW community? Remember how everyone thought the native renderer was useless and without the revolutionary Fprime it wouldn't be worth bothering with? Remember that everyone's consensus was that with NT's resources it would never even reduce the gap with the competition, much less catch up and they should just drop the renderer and license a 3rd party solution because that was the only way?

Now the LW renderer has not only improved. Even though everyone else was improving their renderers and some, like MR have a full development team dedicated just to that (and not to writing Core, adding 9.x features and killing 9.x bugs in the background), the Lightwave renderer still dashed forward so fast that its speed is competitive with almost anything out there; even previewers.

Remember how slow rotating a heavy model in the shaded viewports used to be? We just have to try working a couple of days with Legacy OpenGL to remember. How long did it take them to speed up that viewport to where it is now? If they can do the same thing for transformations, who will want to use 9.6 modeler again?

We're not optimistically hoping for the new dev team to do the unthinkable. We're optimistically hoping that they will continue to do what they have been doing all this time.

Stooch
02-15-2009, 01:30 PM
I doubt that very much, yes.

:)

your doubts dont mean anything to me. or should they for anyone else.

Cageman
02-15-2009, 01:57 PM
Can you name any 3D application, with a comparable sized development team, where that has happened in a comparable amount of time (which appears to be about 3 years)? How about Modo? Or Messiah? Or even Lightwave itself?

Well, for starters... things that has gone into LW9.x during the years have partly been developements done in tandem with CORE developement. Ever since LW9.0 was announced, NewTek told all of us that they were going to do a parallel changeover (which means, writing a new app while maintaining the old, and also extract and isolate subsystems within the old architecture to be used in whole or in part in the new architecture).

You may have missread what I wrote... a DID write "with really hard work and some luck" (luck, in this case could be that implementations of features work out on 1-3 tries instead of 5-7) that CORE 1.0 would have a similar functionality as to LW9.6, with the exception of dynamics. My expectation, however, is that CORE V1.0 is a solid Modeler and Renderer, with a very stable and solid architecture for future developements of other aspects of CORE. Some form of Animation could also be present as well... why do I say that? Well...according to the reveal video, NewTek plans to show demos of animation as well, and these videos will, as far as I know, be released before the end of Q1.



Even if, somehow, LW suddenly got a huge infusion of developers, I just don't see it. I don't know where you folks are getting all of your optimism.

Hmm... here is something to think about...

Once upon a time we were 22 people in the Cinematics Team. Now we are 13... guess what... we work a hell of alot faster now compared to when we were 22. How is that?

iainbyoung
02-15-2009, 02:19 PM
Once upon a time we were 22 people in the Cinematics Team. Now we are 13... guess what... we work a hell of alot faster now compared to when we were 22. How is that?

Agreed. I used to work in a team of 15 people (software developers), which got reduced to 6 of us a couple of years ago. Since then, We've got twice as much work done, and to a higher standard. Quantity does not equal quality. It really depends on the people you have in your team:)

mccabejc
02-15-2009, 02:31 PM
Agreed. I used to work in a team of 15 people (software developers), which got reduced to 6 of us a couple of years ago. Since then, We've got twice as much work done, and to a higher standard. Quantity does not equal quality. It really depends on the people you have in your team:)

Cool. So when did this happen to the Lightwave development team?

iainbyoung
02-15-2009, 02:40 PM
Cool. So when did this happen to the Lightwave development team?

I didn't say it had. The point is that even with a small team of people, you can produce great software. Often better than stuff produced by much larger teams.

People were saying that because the LW dev team isn't very large, they stand no chance of producing LW10/Core with a decent feature set. This is not necessarily the case :)

Iain
02-15-2009, 05:07 PM
I want it in writing that Core be a complete application at v1.0 before I sign up.

Yes.

SkidBoot
02-15-2009, 08:23 PM
I want it in writing that Core be a complete application at v1.0 before I sign up.

Yes.

Well, which is it? Just complete UV tools as you stated in an other thread or the whole package?:D

With a smaller team, there are less jumbled pieces to assemble. When you work with a larger team, there are many more variables to deal with. Sometimes trying to keep more people on the same page and aimed in the same direction can be more of a hinderance than a solution.

Amurrell
02-15-2009, 09:14 PM
My question is, why wouldn't it be a complete app?

hrgiger
02-15-2009, 09:20 PM
My question is, why wouldn't it be a complete app?

Because they've completely re-written the program, started from scratch basically and that takes time to go from nothing to a complete application. We don't know how far they've come yet.

SkidBoot
02-15-2009, 10:35 PM
Because they've completely re-written the program, started from scratch basically and that takes time to go from nothing to a complete application. We don't know how far they've come yet.

Why would you think they would release a package with less features? They've been working on it for two years already and plan on working for another year at least.

hrgiger
02-15-2009, 11:46 PM
Why would you think they would release a package with less features? They've been working on it for two years already and plan on working for another year at least.

And you think that's a long time? How long has Modo been being developed and it still isn't a full application yet? (hint: 7 years)
People really should lower their expectations a little. Maybe Newtek will pull it off, but everyone who thinks this is going to be a feature rich full application....brace for some possible big time disappointment.
I can almost smell the torches and and hear the clanging of the pitchforks of a lot of deluded villagers who are under the impression that they were promised something that they actually weren't by the end of Q4.

SkidBoot
02-16-2009, 12:39 AM
And you think that's a long time? How long has Modo been being developed and it still isn't a full application yet? (hint: 7 years)
People really should lower their expectations a little. Maybe Newtek will pull it off, but everyone who thinks this is going to be a feature rich full application....brace for some possible big time disappointment.
I can almost smell the torches and and hear the clanging of the pitchforks of a lot of deluded villagers who are under the impression that they were promised something that they actually weren't by the end of Q4.

All the info is already there for everything that Lightwave currently does. Modo started from scratch with nothing. How can you compare the two?

Modo continues to put out unstable releases with unfinished tools. Modo continues to put out new half-finished features without finishing current unfinished features. Nobody seems to know where they are heading; they continue to release features nobody asks for. Fur? I don't recall anyone asking for fur. Sculpting? I don't recall anybody asking for sculpting. I recall hearing a resounding call for CA. Where is it? I recall hearing a resounding call for 64-bit. Where is it? It's coming........... for the last 4 years it's been coming. I see no comparison between the two other than the previous LW development team left to start modo which seems to be having the same problems many have talked about when they were still with LW. Deja vu is the term I see on the modo boards often. Maybe 401 will address some of these issues, but I'm sure they'll fix it with more unstable features.

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I can live with it. I just do not see how Newtek can release a new version of LW with LESS features. It's business suicide..........

I'll ask Newtek: Will LW10 be released with less features than the 9.6 build? This seems to be a big concern and should be addressed now.

Frank_Geppert
02-16-2009, 01:27 AM
I'll ask Newtek: Will LW10 be released with less features than the 9.6 build? This seems to be a big concern and should be addressed now.

I am interested in an answer to this question too. But I am afraid that NT will not reply. If they had enough knowledge about features then they would probably release it at the Core website. Everything else unfortunately is speculation.

hrgiger
02-16-2009, 01:30 AM
All the info is already there for everything that Lightwave currently does. Modo started from scratch with nothing. How can you compare the two?

You do realize that Core isn't a copy/paste software build from 9.6? This is an entirely differnet application written in a different programming language and written off completley different architecture. So, the info for everything Lightwave currently does is not just "there". I'm sure even the code that they can re-use will have to be updated and re-written to work with Core. When you consider all of the features of the current LW that don't work with other tools, aren't shared by modeler and Layout, are implemented poorly....you actually begin to hope that they're not using the info that is already "there".


If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I can live with it. I just do not see how Newtek can release a new version of LW with LESS features. It's business suicide..........

I'll ask Newtek: Will LW10 be released with less features than the 9.6 build? This seems to be a big concern and should be addressed now.

I don't see the big concern. Newtek has made the decision to start Lightwave fresh from scratch because they are looking to the future. Even if Core isn't fully implemented for first release, it will hardly be business suicide. Surely, not everybody would be happy with that outcome but I think enough people will see the real potential in a modernized and integrated Lightwave that they'll continue to support the development of the software. Lightwave 9.6 will probably still see some updates from what it sounds like so it's not like users won't have options.

Iain
02-16-2009, 01:49 AM
I want a Presidential pardon if, in the future, I kill Jack Bauer before I sign up.

TeZzy
02-16-2009, 02:50 AM
Well, less features isn't impossible because of reasons stated but it could be that tools are streamlined and compacted(which is ideal). For example, many tools in modeler actually do similar things and heck it even has the same name to a certain extent.

biliousfrog
02-16-2009, 02:56 AM
You do realize that Core isn't a copy/paste software build from 9.6? This is an entirely differnet application written in a different programming language and written off completley different architecture. So, the info for everything Lightwave currently does is not just "there". I'm sure even the code that they can re-use will have to be updated and re-written to work with Core. When you consider all of the features of the current LW that don't work with other tools, aren't shared by modeler and Layout, are implemented poorly....you actually begin to hope that they're not using the info that is already "there".

I read that XSI's 'ICE' took 4 years to develop so a fully functional 3d application that is supposed to work in a similar way in under 3 years by a smaller team is extremely unlikely.

I think that a lot of people are confusing the feature list of what is planned for CORE with a list of what is currently built into CORE. Unfortunately, I remember some of the features that were planned for 9x and never made it which is why I'm very sceptical of a full app any time soon.

hrgiger
02-16-2009, 05:45 AM
Well, less features isn't impossible because of reasons stated...

Yes, less features is very possible. Why does everyone assume that just because 9.6 has it, that Core will immediately?

safetyman
02-16-2009, 05:49 AM
I can't believe so many people are passing judgement on an application we haven't even seen yet -- except for a blurry video that just introduces it. I say we try the app BEFORE we decide if it sux or not.

Kuzey
02-16-2009, 06:16 AM
I'm not so sure, I think they have learned from the past and won't be in the same position of stating something that they can't produce on time....remember the pre sales of LW9 :D

What I'm hoping for is the render side being slightly better than the current version, since that was the most developed part of LW9 series. However, I except to see vast improvements on the modeling and CA side of things, so that part of the Core should be well ahead of anything in LW9.6. Makes sense...since they have been cooking up something but haven't added those features back into 9.6 for any number of reasons, compatibly/old code limitations being the number one reason...I would guess.

Kuzey

hrgiger
02-16-2009, 06:34 AM
I'm not so sure, I think they have learned from the past and won't be in the same position of stating something that they can't produce on time....remember the pre sales of LW9 :D



Well, they've announced the release of Core almost 11 months early. That's doesnt' sound real precise. Can you think of anything that you ever set up to comlete 11 months out? Not saying they wont', just saying it's always a possibility and it won't have anything to do with their good intentions this time around. A lot of snags or setbacks can occur in 11 months time. Maybe they'll be ready earlier. Also a possibility. The point is, they just don't know where they'll be at the end of Q4. Straight from Jim Plant, CEO: Plans are just that- plans. (i.e. not guarantees or promises) To use a phrase that I love so dearly...I'm not trying to piss in anyones morning cornflakes, I just think people should be prepared for all possibilities and give Newtek some leeway and patience on this whole new application from the ground up thing and not expect the moon overnight.

Kuzey
02-16-2009, 06:34 AM
Yes, less features is very possible. Why does everyone assume that just because 9.6 has it, that Core will immediately?

Sure that's possible :)

Newtek are making it sound like it'll be production ready at the in of Q4, so going by that....it should have most, if not all the cool features of 9.6 plus a little bit more.

The worst thing they can do is say, look since this is a full rewrite, the Core won't have the same features as 9.6 but will be more like LW8.5 or even 7.5....expect LW9.6 features in two years time. That would be the end of LW :hey:

Kuzey

Kuzey
02-16-2009, 06:48 AM
Well, they've announced the release of Core almost 11 months early. That's doesnt' sound real precise. Can you think of anything that you ever set up to comlete 11 months out? Not saying they wont', just saying it's always a possibility and it won't have anything to do with their good intentions this time around. A lot of snags or setbacks can occur in 11 months time. Maybe they'll be ready earlier. Also a possibility. The point is, they just don't know where they'll be at the end of Q4. Straight from Jim Plant, CEO: Plans are just that- plans. (i.e. not guarantees or promises)

I feel they have announced it too soon as well, after a few weeks of 9.6 going gold. But, I'm sure they did it because they feel they can make it work within that time line...I hope so :hey:

Actually, there is one guarantee and an important one...if the core is late you will still get the final release. That is a very good step, a safety net and everything else will fall into place from that point on....no matter if it's delayed by a whole year or on time.

True, one should get excited after the fact, otherwise it could be a huge let down...it's still early days and no one has there hands on the Core yet ;)

Kuzey

hrgiger
02-16-2009, 07:09 AM
Newtek are making it sound like it'll be production ready at the in of Q4, so going by that....it should have most, if not all the cool features of 9.6 plus a little bit more.



Well, Modo is production ready but it has no character animation capabilities other then import. Just something to keep in mind. Newtek really hasn't told us enough about Core yet to know really what will ship Q4. I'm guessing because part of the reason is that they don't even know yet what will be ready by then.

biliousfrog
02-16-2009, 07:11 AM
Sure that's possible :)

Newtek are making it sound like it'll be production ready at the in of Q4



They really aren't, they haven't said anything that would even hint at that. All they've done is release a list of features that they plan to implement into CORE and said that the first official release will be later this year.

Although I don't want to drag up Modo again, it's no different to Lux releasing a feature list of preview renderer, animation, GI, fur, real-time displacements etc. several years ago. They are all things that have been implemented into Modo but only after many years of development.

I hope you're right but it's a pretty wild assumption from what has been said so far. Remember, a pessimist is never disappointed :D

CAClark
02-16-2009, 07:45 AM
Aren't the improvements in Lightwave over the 9 series evidence enough that Newtek have their eye on the ball?

Funnily enough, that's the very thing that has me holding back.

Kuzey
02-16-2009, 08:09 AM
Well, Modo is production ready but it has no character animation capabilities other then import. Just something to keep in mind. Newtek really hasn't told us enough about Core yet to know really what will ship Q4. I'm guessing because part of the reason is that they don't even know yet what will be ready by then.

I haven't used Modo so I wouldn't know. But I would think the main difference is that Newtek has a bigger base to start off with, both Modeler and Layout code/features..instead of just Modeler in the case of Modo.

That could make all the difference in the world, but being able to use those features in the Core is a different thing altogether.

I'm hoping it will be easier to port the good features of LW9.6 and streamline them, taking out all the code hacks and work arounds that slowed the development of Modeler during the LW 8 to 9 series. Functions should be easier to write from fresh new code without having to deal with the extra junk put in there to make a feature work in the old versions or on a different platform etc.

I'm not so worried about the time line...I'll be happy if I can get it at a delayed date or on time...now that Newtek said you will get it even though your subscription runs out. :D

Kuzey

cresshead
02-16-2009, 08:24 AM
not to put too fine a point on it but ALL this chit chat about what's in and what will be is just pie in the sky B.S. noeone but newtek knows....but HC members will get a glimpse with the beta in around 45 days if it turns up on time.

until then you can dream n knock down all you like..yet no one actually knows ANYTHING posting here...unless jay roth decides to make a post..

nothing to see here...move along move along....

dreamers..please continue if it makes you feel better talking to a wall...:)

Kuzey
02-16-2009, 08:32 AM
They really aren't, they haven't said anything that would even hint at that. All they've done is release a list of features that they plan to implement into CORE and said that the first official release will be later this year.

Although I don't want to drag up Modo again, it's no different to Lux releasing a feature list of preview renderer, animation, GI, fur, real-time displacements etc. several years ago. They are all things that have been implemented into Modo but only after many years of development.

I hope you're right but it's a pretty wild assumption from what has been said so far. Remember, a pessimist is never disappointed :D

I read between the lines :D

Lw 9.6 just went gold, they could have said nothing for the whole year but they felt like they are on a winner and can do it. Also, the fact 9.6 is still going to be developed beside the Core tells me, that once the Core goes gold there won't be a need for the current version, so it should be fully production ready at that time....be it in Q4 of this year or in Q2 of next year. Also, any new features 9.6 gets during this time should find it's way into the Core. Otherwise why continue to work on it, besides getting the Mac 64 bit version of LW9.6 out.

It's good for newtek to have something to aim for as far as dates go. Once they get the rhythm of working on the Core locked down then things should move fast.

Of course...that's all speculation :hey:

Kuzey

biliousfrog
02-16-2009, 08:32 AM
Funnily enough, that's the very thing that has me holding back.

:agree:


I haven't used Modo so I wouldn't know. But I would think the main difference is that Newtek has a bigger base to start off with, both Modeler and Layout code/features..instead of just Modeler in the case of Modo.

That could make all the difference in the world, but being able to use those features in the Core is a different thing altogether.

I'm hoping it will be easier to port the good features of LW9.6 and streamline them, taking out all the code hacks and work arounds that slowed the development of Modeler during the LW 8 to 9 series. Functions should be easier to write from fresh new code without having to deal with the extra junk put in there to make a feature work in the old versions or on a different platform etc.

I'm not so worried about the time line...I'll be happy if I can get it at a delayed date or on time...now that Newtek said you will get it even though your subscription runs out. :D

Kuzey

You probably know this but Luxology was formed by the guys that developed Lightwave so they know exactly how to develop animation tools it's just that they appear to be working on a small selection of great tools at a time rather than an entire application full of odds and ends cobbled together...which is what Lightwave has become. I'm sure that they could have jumped in with a Lightwave clone but instead, they started with a nice, solid (although not always stable) modeler and have been implementing a selection of new features along the way.

NewTek are creating CORE from the ground up with a completely new code base. They are essentially starting again with the knowledge that they have from Lightwave but (probably) without being able to use the same code. So, they are in exactly the same position as Luxology were several years ago but instead of starting small, they have jumped in with both feet and announced a complete 3d application to rival Max, Maya and XSI.

Kuzey
02-16-2009, 08:53 AM
:agree:



You probably know this but Luxology was formed by the guys that developed Lightwave so they know exactly how to develop animation tools it's just that they appear to be working on a small selection of great tools at a time rather than an entire application full of odds and ends cobbled together...which is what Lightwave has become. I'm sure that they could have jumped in with a Lightwave clone but instead, they started with a nice, solid (although not always stable) modeler and have been implementing a selection of new features along the way.

NewTek are creating CORE from the ground up with a completely new code base. They are essentially starting again with the knowledge that they have from Lightwave but (probably) without being able to use the same code. So, they are in exactly the same position as Luxology were several years ago but instead of starting small, they have jumped in with both feet and announced a complete 3d application to rival Max, Maya and XSI.

I knew that, but I thought it was just the modeler side of things that they took with them. In any case, Layout 9.6 is not the same as when those guys left, it's a new beast and as such should be easier to port over to the Core. Getting rid of junk code and work arounds is worth it, so the code might or might not be the same as 9.6 but it'll be a lot healthier. There won't be hacks to make functions/feature work on say the Mac side etc....so all that junk is gone now :hey:

That would be one half of the problem solved and who knows what Newtek have developed on the modeler side of things since working on the Core.

Just saying, the two might seem related on the surface but to me it's totally different, now that the code is built within QT. The Lux guys will still be working on the old system as far as I know, X code for Mac and whatever they use for the PC, so I'm sure they are using a lot of hacks in the code to get things done. :hey:


Kuzey

bobakabob
02-16-2009, 05:00 PM
Funnily enough, that's the very thing that has me holding back.

What exactly?

the3dwiz
02-16-2009, 05:36 PM
Sorry to surface again, bevore there are substancial news from Core.
I for my part, im shure waiting until NewTek shows more.
At the moment i have no, absolutly no reason to jump in and burn my money (for probably nothing.)
And to all the White Knights outthere defending NewTek, nervous?
I for my part, im comfortable with 9.5/6. Actualy im asking myself how many of you are softwaredevelopers or Graphics Pros ?
And im wondering who at the end will *****ing NewTek to not fullfill their expectations. The ones waiting for more Infos or the earlybirds? Actualy i think NewTek is not dooing themself any favor with not giving any details to the customers.
For me, this looks like they have nothing to show or to talk about (Exept the Hardcore Membership)
With every day passing without information i think i smell more and more a cadaver lieing around somewhere.

the3dwiz
02-16-2009, 06:11 PM
Are talking to yourself?:hey:

Stunt Pixels
02-16-2009, 06:24 PM
Are talking to yourself?:hey:

Congratulations dude, your post count caught up with your IQ!

Cageman
02-16-2009, 06:24 PM
Sorry to surface again, bevore there are substancial news from Core.
I for my part, im shure waiting until NewTek shows more.
At the moment i have no, absolutly no reason to jump in and burn my money (for probably nothing.)

Nothing?



And to all the White Knights outthere defending NewTek, nervous?

Not at all... you?



I for my part, im comfortable with 9.5/6. Actualy im asking myself how many of you are softwaredevelopers or Graphics Pros ?

Ok.. I'll bite..

Something to chew on that I've been involved in making:


World in Conflict HighRes trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l3-dd57-vA)

World in Conflict - Soviet Assault announcement trailer (HighRes) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjkGPhht5TQ)

More of those will come, for sure. :) Just keep yourself updated to what Massive is doing. :) Apart from Highres stuff, I've been doing facial animation for alot of the ingame cutscenes found in World In Conflict.

Before I joined Massive, I worked at Fido Film (http://www.fido.se/)

Spare-time stuff (not much, but rather OK I think) (http://spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23584)

Sorry if I couldn't show you more, but at least you know where I come from.

So...

What about you?



And im wondering who at the end will *****ing NewTek to not fullfill their expectations. The ones waiting for more Infos or the earlybirds?

HardCORE members have recieved info that are not avaliable outside that forum (at least to my knowledge).



Actualy i think NewTek is not dooing themself any favor with not giving any details to the customers.
For me, this looks like they have nothing to show or to talk about (Exept the Hardcore Membership)

They do have things to talk about, trust me on that. But, if you havn't lived under a rock, you should know that NewTek will be more carefull over what they show and how. THAT eats time as well, you know..



With every day passing without information i think i smell more and more a cadaver lieing around somewhere.

Maybe you have your mouth too close to your nose? :D

(sorry, bad joke).

I can understand the frustration, but info will come out... rest assured!

Peace!

:)

SkidBoot
02-16-2009, 06:31 PM
I don't own Lightwave; I am speaking from an outsiders point of view. I find there is too much drama on these forums, yet I can't seem to pull myself away from it all! 8~:cursin:

In all seriousness though, I do think Newtek will release a fine product in LW 10. I don't see it being less functional. This is my opinion. I probably won't buy though. I'll end up with Maya simply because I like the way it works. I've been able to accomplish more in Maya for that reason. It works for me anyways......:D

dwburman
02-16-2009, 06:32 PM
The rewrites of the other major apps (Wavefront to Maya, Softimage to XSI, and 3DS to 3DS MAX) haven't always brought rock-solid and complete feature in the first release. I don't think it is business suicide to not have complete feature parity with LW9.6. At this stage to get CORE, you need to get 9.6 and therefore you have a fully functional LW (except for the bits that don't fully function or function together in 9.6). I will note that if XSI had fared better during it's transition, it might not be part of the Autodesk empire now.

It's probably better to start with lower expectations for CORE and be pleasantly surprised if things start to look good later this year. (Low expectations are more easily exceeded :)

Also, I don't know if you can compare development times of current projects (CORE) versus dev times of past/existing projects (XSI ICE). It seems developments by one group get duplicated by others in a shorter amount of time. Visual Effects and rendering techniques developed by R&D departments for blockbuster feature films become standard features in off the shelf software or plug-ins shortly after the film is released. It took a long time to first map the human genome and the feat has been accomplished several times since then. Throw in the synchronicity of discoveries/inventions (separate, non-collaborating teams/individuals solving the same problem at roughly the same time) in history and shorter dev times seems somehow possible.

Of course, things can go horribly wrong as well and development could drag on and on and get stuck and mucked up as well so I'm not saying dev time WILL be shorter on CORE than ICE.

As for NewTek surviving the recession... I don't know how their business is run or how they're doing economically. I think they are a privately owned company so I don't think a hostile takeover is possible. Also, their business model is to make products that bring high-end features/capability to people who can't afford expensive video gear/software. They survived the collapse commodore, maker of the Amiga, the platform on which their flagship product (Video Toaster) was based. More recently, they survived the tech bubble bursting in 2001 as well as the other recessions in the last two decades.

I don't know if I'll be signing up for Core membership, but that's mainly due to personal financial constraints this year.

the3dwiz
02-16-2009, 06:52 PM
Hi Cageman
Im a game design student right now, but im working with Lightwave since V4. And my question was not ment as an assault. But i have seen a lot of people here, using this forum to only promote their opinion. But, their opinion buys me nothing. Im waiting for NewTek to give some hard, proven facts.And im waiting since allmost 2 weeks.
So far i have seen not much from Core. I only have seen technical statements from NewTek with no given timeframe. So i dont know if core1 will be something more than a modeller at its Release and if i have to wait 2-3 years until it is a usable product. Can you tell for shure what it will be?
NT has not made any statement , so no one can afterwards say they have made a wrong promis.
Sorry, but its should not be that hard to give out a roadmap. MHO

That they are not publishing a roadmap gives the imression to me, that a lot of customers may be frightended if they see it.

Cageman
02-16-2009, 07:29 PM
Hi Cageman
Im a game design student right now, but im working with Lightwave since V4. And my question was not ment as an assault. But i have seen a lot of people here, using this forum to only promote their opinion. But, their opinion buys me nothing. Im waiting for NewTek to give some hard, proven facts.And im waiting since allmost 2 weeks.

Gamedesign.. cool! :)

There are plenty of people on both sides on the fence that are proffessional graphics artists, rest assured about that.

While I understand your frustration about lack of information, you also have to understand NewTek. After the ****storm that followed their CORE reveal video, NewTek will put more effort into presenting information in a way that doesn't create an uproar. You see.. NewTek are doomed whatever they do; they simply can't please everyone everytime.



So far i have seen not much from Core. I only have seen technical statements from NewTek with no given timeframe. So i dont know if core1 will be something more than a modeller at its Release and if i have to wait 2-3 years until it is a usable product.

Yeah.. but that info will come and to my knowledge, well before the $395 offer is ending.



Can you tell for shure what it will be?

No... my investment in this is the architecture/foundation that CORE is built on. Tools/Features etc are all secondary to me. My desicion to join HardCORE was based soley on supporting NewTek in their drastic change of direction for LW AND by joining in, I'll get a much better chance to have my voice heard regarding implementations of tools. As you may know, the architecture is already here, and that is what I have paid my $395 for. Wether or not CORE will have joints/bones when it is released in Q4, I really don't care. I see so many possibilities just by knowing that the architecture is flexible and a hell of alot cheaper compared to Maya or Houdini, so my only obligation is to aid NewTek in realising their product. Of course, not everyone share my vision, and I can fully accept that, as long as they don't try to redicule me or my choice.

It also helps when you have private chats and even meetings with developers. That, if anything, helps build a solid sense of trust. Not all people are previleged enough to have that kind of contact, so I am very lucky in that respect.



NT has not made any statement , so no one can afterwards say they have made a wrong promis.
Sorry, but its should not be that hard to give out a roadmap. MHO

Sometimes it is.... NewTek may have very cool stuff ligned up for CORE V1.5 or V2.0 that they don't want to share just yet, especially when the market today for 3D-applications are pretty much focused on one, single company; Autodesk. You wouldn't want to give away your trade secrets to someone who is directly competing with you to get customers, would you?



That they are not publishing a roadmap gives the imression to me, that a lot of customers may be frightended if they see it.

Well... that is why the architecture is so important rather than features. A good and solid architecture will never have problems with tools or features, because there aren't any real limitations to what can be achived in terms of those two things. That is somewhat the point with CORE as of now.

jasonwestmas
02-16-2009, 07:39 PM
That they are not publishing a roadmap gives the imression to me, that a lot of customers may be frightended if they see it.

Surprisingly enough, coding a piece of creative software is a creative process. Like all creative processes a "road map" would not express what the final product will be because a "road" is a linear and extremely vague point of view with many points in it along the way that will INDEED change. It will change dramatically from point A to B because making all of the tools and component parts work together is more of an act of RESPONDING to the very nature of the tools (Yes software has a Natural behavior within it because a natural human being created it.) than it is of dominant mechanical control. To demand control over the features within software is to demand that the very center, heart or CORE software is to assume that the design has be all fully realized. It is pretty clear to me that the overall design of CORE is not implemented yet. NT tried this road-map approach in the past and were chastised for it when they were unable to adhere to it exactly. Now that I understand the process here better I have learned to be less demanding of NT. I've been critical of NT myself but really most of the time I did not understand what was going on behind the scenes. My guess is that NT has learned from that mistake of making a concrete list of features and then try to program around those features resulting in a "Tacked On" approach to creative software. I'm pretty sure this is not NT's new approach and have chosen a much looser "Sketchy" approach used to construct a creative process considering MULTIPLE Pipelines within the tools themselves in these stages of Core's infancy. So what you are asking is probably something a little more concrete than what NT can offer up to you at the moment. That's just being realistic.

Frank_Geppert
02-17-2009, 01:52 AM
So far i have seen not much from Core. I only have seen technical statements from NewTek with no given timeframe. So i dont know if core1 will be something more than a modeller at its Release and if i have to wait 2-3 years until it is a usable product. Can you tell for shure what it will be? ...
Sorry, but its should not be that hard to give out a roadmap. MHO

I understand your concerns and I share a few of them with you. But I think we do not have to worry about Core being a Modeler only so much. They want to sell it for about $1,500. It has to be something more than a modeler. But it might be that they just bundle 9.6 and Core and let them communicate over the HUB to justify this price. We will see.

A roadmap would be interesting. And I am sure they have one internally but probably there are reasons to not make them public.
I am a programmer myself and I know that you can plan as good as you want, the final development time will be longer. You simply do not see all the small problems that will arise for sure. Some programmers make a schedule and just double that time to make it more realistic.

Because of this you all have to be very patient. I will use 9.6, I love it and I extend it through Modo. We cannot base our business on an unfinished software. And honestly: there is no need to do so.
But when I see some real features, when I realize that Core became the best modeler out there with intuitive uv-mapping, fantastic Collada support, options to edit vertex-normals and other unique stuff, then I will press the "Buy Now" button instantly, promised!

colkai
02-17-2009, 06:59 AM
I am a programmer myself and I know that you can plan as good as you want, the final development time will be longer. You simply do not see all the small problems that will arise for sure.

Hehehe... That's putting it mildly. ;)
I guess you mean those many WTF?!?!? moments when code that worked until you added one line,that honest to goodness, is not at all related to what broke. :D :p

Yup, some folks think coding is a black art and at times, after 30+ years in the game, I can see their point of view, no A.I. yet my backside, computers spend all their time trying to flummox the programmer, never mind the user! :hey:

iainbyoung
02-17-2009, 07:29 AM
Some programmers make a schedule and just double that time to make it more realistic.

Been writing software for 20+ years, and that approach has always worked ok for me. Generally I find you can estimate things reasonably accurately when digging around in code you know, but when estimating for new stuff, it's always wise to allow a little longer. Don't think I've ever missed a date though ;)

Of course Newtek may well have already done this style estimation when they announced the Q4 GA date, so it may be ready earlier than expected. Until we actually see some software, this is all just guesswork :)

iainbyoung
02-17-2009, 07:31 AM
I guess you mean those many WTF?!?!? moments when code that worked until you added one line,that honest to goodness, is not at all related to what broke. :D :p

Ah that old one. Been there many times :D

jasonwestmas
02-17-2009, 07:33 AM
But it might be that they just bundle 9.6 and Core and let them communicate over the HUB to justify this price. We will see.


Yikes! I will quit 3D all together if that ever happens. . .how absurd. NT is smarter than that and there is nothing futuristic about classic layout and hubbing it to a modeler.

dballesg
02-17-2009, 07:37 AM
Some programmers make a schedule and just double that time to make it more realistic.


It wasn't something similar Scotty did every time Kirk asked "How long to repair it, Mr Scoot?" :D

grimoirecg
02-19-2009, 11:33 AM
Don't be a bunch of fools.

Look, unless you really have the disposable income to go with another package (like XSI, MAX, or C4D with one of the bundles) you're only shooting yourself in the foot by not upgrading now. Even if half the feature list they've given so far comes true- it will still be the least inexpensive program in its class, and LW10 looks to be move'n on up.

What ever- there is cautious and then there is just stupid. Some of you people just wave a buck around in the air and expect any kind of "worker" to bend to your hyper consumer driven needs.

After CORE is out and fully demonstrated to the world I'm sure they'll have no trouble replacing you with people more than happy to pay the full sticker price for admission.

How do you know it's actually going to be any good when it ships?
You don't, it's just the usual fanboy hope.

I'm one of these crazy weirdos who insists on seeing what I'm actually buying before paying for it.
IF newtek were to offer a full money back guarantee if not entirely satisfied by whatever date it ships, then that would be different, but what they're actually selling for almost $400 is a blindfold and a promise.

HarverdGrad
02-19-2009, 01:26 PM
Let me also point out that you're a supporter of Luxology's marketing on 401- and there are only flashy pics on the site for that- no nuts and bolts demonstrations as far as I'm concerned. Would you like NT to just show you the gloss? If they had a shnazzy time line with cute well designed graphics would you buy CORE?!


You come off like a fanboy d I ckhead.. you know that?
You're not doing Newtek any favors :thumbsdow

Jirapong
02-19-2009, 01:36 PM
Usually, we try it before buy it.
Most of the time we bought and used it first and pay later, by credit card.

If NT will charge when the gold version shipped, I would jump in.

I don't know about software companies, but any bank now can go out of business the next day you deposit you money in. But at least you, we have FDIC at least.

So, I need to be sure I will get what I pay for.

kfinla
02-19-2009, 02:03 PM
The cheap LWCore upgrade deal is still good for 5 more weeks, so I see no need in blindly pulling the trigger when more info is promissed before then. If the only software you run is LW than it is pretty much a no brainer. I have upgrades for LW and Modo looming at basically the same time both at 395. Not sure If will do both. Lux and NT both have more to show before march 31st so waiting just makes my decision more informed. I hope they both announce great products, but I also worry LW core could be a few years from a stable, feature rich app.

Jirapong
02-19-2009, 02:22 PM
I'm with you kfinla.
In the past I upgraded both in every version, LW since 6.5, Modo since 1. Now the game changed, I, this week, can afford only one and need to skip the other. I hope in the next five weeks I will still be able to upgrade at least one if none. So, the sooner who show me so, I can make my decision will get it.
It's only $395. So, does not mean anything to both company anyway. but now mean a lot for me.

Hope, all we have. Hope, to still have job, all I have before the end of March.

RTSchramm
02-20-2009, 04:14 PM
I think that the at a minimum, ALL of the current LW 9.6 features should be available when CORE 1 beta is released because what's the point of upgrading to another 3D package that is missing one or more features of the one that it replaces? Whats the point of spending $400 to test a incomplete solution? So do I pay another $400 and hope that the next year's upgrade have these features? Using this flawed thinking I would have now spent $800 to get the same features in a product that I already own!

I have no problem spending $400 to help Newtek beta test a new product, but it needs to have ALL of the functionality of LW 9.6, so we beta testers can thoroughly run the software through its paces.

As others have previously post, I will wait the week before the March 31 deadline to decide if there are enough features available before I make a leap of faith.

Rich

jin choung
02-20-2009, 04:51 PM
yikes... you should check out this thread then:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=838130#post838130

jin

Greenlaw
02-20-2009, 06:09 PM
Okay, this is getting a bit tedious.

Are people actually complaining that CORE isn't already a finished product? Newsflash! CORE is about to go into its first beta, so it will be far from being a finished product. In fact, NewTek has already stated that, if all goes as planned, CORE won't be be a finished product until the end of the year.

If this is an issue for you, then joining HardCore is not for you. Just wait for the end of the year and then make your decision about purchasing the finished version of CORE. In the meantime, you have LightWave 9.6, which is a fully functional 3D package.

Really, it's that simple. :)

Greenlaw

jasonwestmas
02-20-2009, 06:27 PM
No, I think people want that. . .ahh. . .what do you call it. . . a "roadmap"? NT already did that with the 9.x series and it didn't work too well. NT already made it pretty clear that there isn't going to be a roadmap. The only thing NT will share with us at this point is that the BASE platform of animation which includes the set of MODELING tools and geometric components themselves; are going to be pushed to the maximum priority FIRST. Whatever that goal means is up in the air of course because the platform of CORE modeling is going to change considerably. Things concerning animation and rendering will use that BASE platform when it is READY later on before the 1.0 release but not before. NT can correct me if I'm completely wrong but it will take more than a year, I'm sure, to fully develop the rendering and animation side of Core so that it will be on par with the modeling set of tools.

jin choung
02-20-2009, 08:50 PM
Okay, this is getting a bit tedious.

Are people actually complaining that CORE isn't already a finished product? Newsflash! CORE is about to go into its first beta, so it will be far from being a finished product. In fact, NewTek has already stated that, if all goes as planned, CORE won't be be a finished product until the end of the year.

oh no... oh nononononono....

it's worse than that. read jay's post. http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=837851&postcount=204

it's NOT GOING TO BE DONE for 1.0. period. i think the expectation of most people was that it was going to be like maya 1.0. a complete app. but if you take out some of the hemming and hawing, it looks like it might be more like modo - the whole app might not actually be there.

also, it depends on what you mean by beta... usually, beta refers to feature complete. the app is DONE in the sense that all features that are going in are in and now we're buffing out the bugs and dings.

that is NOT where core is at now. it's not actually DONE YET.

and also, to give newtek credit, they are not bandying around the word BETA. that's just some folks on the boards. it's NOT BETA. it might not even be alpha yet.

jin

biliousfrog
02-21-2009, 03:15 AM
I hate to say I told you so :p

They're still being extremely vague but it would appear that $395 will get you a cut down beta version of Modo which you can use alongside your current 9.6.

stone
02-21-2009, 04:36 AM
I think that the at a minimum, ALL of the current LW 9.6 features should be available when CORE 1 beta is released because what's the point of upgrading to another 3D package that is missing one or more features of the one that it replaces?

you need a reality check badly, together with a whole lot of other users on these forums- a new program will _never_ contain all the features of another. and it shouldnt, it should be better, simpler, more streamlined and with a more efficient workflow. thats the point of a rewrite, you want to improve and change stuff- do things differently.

add to that that developing all these features will take at least another few years and that leaves you in the dark meanwhile when you could have a new application that will be modern, efficient and help you produce faster in the areas that has been fully implemented while other areas can be left out initially while a proper and efficient workflow is implemented- i dont see how that doesnt make for a valid application. or the price charged. its not like your lw9 version stops working meanwhile.

if your workflow, the fun you are having and the quality of the things you produce go up, then why wont you justify incremental improvements? id be seriously scared if newtek claimed everything would be included in v1, as it would mean half-arsed implementations and a re-run of the crap workflow.

supply a v1 that is truly efficient, fresh and fun to use which is fully functional, well implemented and does the things it does really well. then take the time to add the additional features in a similar well integrated manner.

/stone

jasonwestmas
02-21-2009, 07:10 AM
you need a reality check badly, together with a whole lot of other users on these forums- a new program will _never_ contain all the features of another. and it shouldnt, it should be better, simpler, more streamlined and with a more efficient workflow. thats the point of a rewrite, you want to improve and change stuff- do things differently.

add to that that developing all these features will take at least another few years and that leaves you in the dark meanwhile when you could have a new application that will be modern, efficient and help you produce faster in the areas that has been fully implemented while other areas can be left out initially while a proper and efficient workflow is implemented- i dont see how that doesnt make for a valid application. or the price charged. its not like your lw9 version stops working meanwhile.

if your workflow, the fun you are having and the quality of the things you produce go up, then why wont you justify incremental improvements? id be seriously scared if newtek claimed everything would be included in v1, as it would mean half-arsed implementations and a re-run of the crap workflow.

supply a v1 that is truly efficient, fresh and fun to use which is fully functional, well implemented and does the things it does really well. then take the time to add the additional features in a similar well integrated manner.

/stone

That is true, the NUMBER of features is meaningless. There can indeed be one feature that kills the need for 20 features that kill one bird. It's semantics if you think about it anyway.

jasonwestmas
02-21-2009, 07:46 AM
and also, to give newtek credit, they are not bandying around the word BETA. that's just some folks on the boards. it's NOT BETA. it might not even be alpha yet.

jin

Yes, what we are dealing with is a Pre-Alpha, totally agree. It will be interesting how NT plans to sell it a year from now but at the moment we are in the infancy stage of core. . .ya know?

mouse_art
02-21-2009, 08:13 AM
I highly doubt that.


Modo started from scratch with nothing. How can you compare the two?

circleofsmoke
02-21-2009, 09:23 AM
are there any vids floating around - I missed the broadcast

jin choung
02-21-2009, 12:22 PM
you need a reality check badly, together with a whole lot of other users on these forums- a new program will _never_ contain all the features of another. and it shouldnt, it should be better, simpler, more streamlined and with a more efficient workflow. thats the point of a rewrite, you want to improve and change stuff- do things differently.

add to that that developing all these features will take at least another few years and that leaves you in the dark meanwhile when you could have a new application that will be modern, efficient and help you produce faster in the areas that has been fully implemented while other areas can be left out initially while a proper and efficient workflow is implemented- i dont see how that doesnt make for a valid application. or the price charged. its not like your lw9 version stops working meanwhile.

if your workflow, the fun you are having and the quality of the things you produce go up, then why wont you justify incremental improvements? id be seriously scared if newtek claimed everything would be included in v1, as it would mean half-arsed implementations and a re-run of the crap workflow.

supply a v1 that is truly efficient, fresh and fun to use which is fully functional, well implemented and does the things it does really well. then take the time to add the additional features in a similar well integrated manner.

/stone

you're missing the point of the 9.6 comparison. 9.6 is a "full 3d app". CORE 1.0 will NOT BE.

it will be mostly modeler with "more". but whatever more is, they've indicated it will not be a complete 3d app yet.

i.e. it will not be the equivalent of maya1.0 or xsi1.0 . if modo plans eventually on being a 3d app, core will have more similarity to that than maya1.0.

it's not about replicating features but it's more like saying they've got 4 wheels and a steering wheel but no seats yet.

jin

jin choung
02-21-2009, 12:22 PM
are there any vids floating around - I missed the broadcast

newtek.com/core

jin

RTSchramm
02-21-2009, 12:59 PM
Jin, thanks for the link to Jay's clarification on CORE. Jay's clarification should be all anyone needs to make a decision as to either join the CORE development, or not. Almost every CORE question that I have seen in the forums has been answered by Jay.

My previous posts were under the wrong assumptions due to what I read on the CORE web site. I was assuming that the CORE beta program was a full feature program that needed a year of beta testing before going GOLD in the Q4. I was willing to pay $400 to subscribe to CORE under these conditions.

Now that I know what the first version of CORE will not be, I will probably will not be joining the CORE party until the product has at least the same features as LW 9.6.

My only grip is that Newtek is asking users to pay for a beta program when I think it would be more in their interest to have the CORE beta free like 9.6 beta. This would allow Newtek find more bugs quickly. Once the Core Beta is over later in the year, then Netwek could start charging for the CORE Gold version.

Rich

stone
02-21-2009, 02:04 PM
you're missing the point of the 9.6 comparison. 9.6 is a "full 3d app". CORE 1.0 will NOT BE.

it will be mostly modeler with "more". but whatever more is, they've indicated it will not be a complete 3d app yet.

i write several times, in nearly every paragraph actually, that it wont be a full 3d app at first, but implement a given set of features and lack others.

you didnt really read the actual post did you? just trying to boost your post count with irrelevant comments.

and xsi1.0 wasnt a full 3d package either. it did some things really well, others horrible and some not at all, which is why it needed softimage as a supplement.

/stone

frantbk
02-21-2009, 06:34 PM
Core 1.x will not be a full 3D app? what is the bases for that? Jay Roth stated in another thread that they would be working on animation at the end of the 1st quarter. April 1st it the beginning of the 2nd quarter, so one more month of working on modeling tool sets. :stumped:

Stunt Pixels
02-21-2009, 07:03 PM
Jay Roth stated in another thread that they would be working on animation at the end of the 1st quarter.

No he didn't.

geo_n
02-21-2009, 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSchramm View Post
My only grip is that Newtek is asking users to pay for a beta program when I think it would be more in their interest to have the CORE beta free like 9.6 beta. This would allow Newtek find more bugs quickly. Once the Core Beta is over later in the year, then Netwek could start charging for the CORE Gold version.

Rich
What? You didn't get the 9.x beta for free. You HAD to upgrade to LW9 to be included. The same here.You MUST upgrade to CORE to be included in the alpha/beta. Why is that so difficult to understand?


Hmmm..I like the way Andrew is doing his alpha at 3dcoat. Since the software is an underdog to zbrush, he made the alpha public so anyone can have a hands on test. If you like 3dcoat voxel then buy 2.0 and upgrade later.
Its no different here. Newtek is clearly an underdog. Maya, xsi, max are everywhere. There's no argument there. Lw is surviving with freelancers and hobbyist. But is that enough? It will be hard to pull in studios with an initial payment to mystery software. They should look at how Andrew is doing his alpha, its open to even non-buyers. In any case my TD already told me its a no go for core in our company seeing I'm the only lwver left. Any version 1.0 software will be full of BUGS he said. Its so sad to hear from my TD that news. I will have to consider to upgrade my personal license instead.

frantbk
02-21-2009, 08:56 PM
No he didn't.

Which ever thread they were talking about plug-ins Jay Roth made a statement about Core 1.x supporting current plug-ins and the problem. It was also stated that Animation work would begin something in the 2Q.

jin choung
02-21-2009, 10:47 PM
i write several times, in nearly every paragraph actually, that it wont be a full 3d app at first

you were still missing the point about the comparison to 9.6....

your objection is irrelevant.

jin

jin choung
02-21-2009, 10:50 PM
Core 1.x will not be a full 3D app? what is the bases for that?

"For now, our primary focus for LightWave CORE will be in the modeling environment. We have had so many ideas for modeling in the past, but we really needed the CORE architecture to take it to a whole new level. Of course, CORE is capable of anything, but we did need to start somewhere -- modeling was a good choice, and modeling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year."

let me quote that again: "modeling will be the primary focus for the Lightwave CORE release later this year"

and

"I can say, with certainty, that the Q4 release will not have all of the features of LightWave v9.6. In many cases, CORE will offer features beyond those of LightWave v9.6, but not in all cases. LightWave v9.6 was made very robust and feature rich in anticipation of a transition period between the old and new technologies. What CORE will not address in the Q4 time frame is addressed by the original LightWave, and as much as we can, CORE will offer a good interchange with the original LightWave."

even WITH all the hemming and hawing and qualifying and diluting, isn't it pretty clear? i think so. and if you try to read between the lines a little, which we're almost forced to do...

jin

JCG
02-21-2009, 11:05 PM
Any version 1.0 software will be full of BUGS he said.Ah! But that's where we come in! :D

Celshader
02-21-2009, 11:14 PM
Lw is surviving with freelancers and hobbyist. But is that enough? It will be hard to pull in studios with an initial payment to mystery software.

Luckily, studios already use LightWave. I work at one (http://www.radical3d.com/) of them. :thumbsup:

calilifestyle
02-22-2009, 12:11 AM
originally posted by g-man
show us what to expect for our money.

fair enough. You pays your money and makes your choice. If not... It will cost you in the long run.

Aren't the improvements in lightwave over the 9 series evidence enough that newtek have their eye on the ball?

no.

calilifestyle
02-22-2009, 12:18 AM
I guess it really doesn't matter if the price of LW HC is not changing. you could just wait till next version of LW HC and you pick it up at the same price as now.

frantbk
02-22-2009, 08:03 AM
Compliments of erikals:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...81&postcount=1
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=199
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=204
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=212
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=221
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=224
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=233
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=294


Woow instead of doing a search for Jay Roth and finding out if he made the statement, you wasted all that time posting these threads. :lol: ;D

frantbk
02-22-2009, 08:17 AM
let me quote that again: "modeling will be the primary focus for the Lightwave CORE release later this year"

Yes grasshopper I understand that. why do they need to rework the work already done on layout and animation in 9.6 when it will be transferred to Core 1.x. Two years ago the lightwave render was separated from lightwave 9.x's core/kernel. The real question people should be asking is what % of Core 1.x will be a frozen spot (framework terminology) and what % will be a hot spot.

[quote] [B][COLOR="Red"]
"I can say, with certainty, that the Q4 release will not have all of the features of LightWave v9.6. In many cases, CORE will offer features beyond those of LightWave v9.6, but not in all cases. LightWave v9.6 was made very robust and feature rich in anticipation of a transition period between the old and new technologies. What CORE will not address in the Q4 time frame is addressed by the original LightWave, and as much as we can, CORE will offer a good interchange with the original LightWave."

I think you like everyone else can't stand the idea that 9.6 and Core 1.x have all the same functions. Nobody, but a fanboy will spent $1495.00 for basically a overpriced modeling package. Lightwave core isn't a new product from the ground up. It is a side shift of coding based on the OOP's environment.

[quote] even WITH all the hemming and hawing and qualifying and diluting, isn't it pretty clear? i think so. and if you try to read between the lines a little, which we're almost forced to do... jin

If as you state that Core 1.x is going to be short on many 9.6 functions then you have to concede that the full SDK kit has to be released with Core 1.x so the big FX shops can build their tool sets from day one. This would explain most of what you're claiming. Jay Roth stated modeling is their primary. Jay Roth did not say that was their only objective for lightwave core 1.x 4Q release. :lwicon:

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 11:56 AM
I am pretty sure we should all get used to 9.6 for a while.

Is there an actual version of core that is being tested now if I do hardcore? If so can you do anything other then drag panels around?

Has there been any other demos released since the reveal that show any features? I would think not many people would buy based on what they have shown so far.

colkai
02-22-2009, 01:47 PM
Hmm, so you think people are willing to pay $395 for the ability to drag panels around? Hardly likely, perchance you need to watch the video and read the statements made by Newtek a bit more carefully.

jasonwestmas
02-22-2009, 02:07 PM
I am pretty sure we should all get used to 9.6 for a while.

Is there an actual version of core that is being tested now if I do hardcore? If so can you do anything other then drag panels around?

Has there been any other demos released since the reveal that show any features? I would think not many people would buy based on what they have shown so far.

NT said Core will primarily be a modeling app with other features that relate to animation and rendering. It also appears that NT doesn't even know yet how far the animation and rendering will be by the time they will release it. So things could be worse than you would hope for or better, it all depends.:rolleyes:

TheRetiredSailo
02-22-2009, 02:42 PM
For what it is worth, I think that the mere fact that this is being debated shows that NewTek hasn't released enough information about CORE to satisfy the market. People shouldn't have to buy based on faith.

Celshader
02-22-2009, 02:53 PM
People shouldn't have to buy based on faith.

Right. They can wait until CORE 1.0 is officially released to see exactly what they will get for their money. NewTek's not forcing anyone to pre-order CORE.

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 02:58 PM
Right. They can wait until CORE 1.0 is officially released to see exactly what they will get for their money. NewTek's not forcing anyone to pre-order CORE.

Yes they are!
how much is core now? how much is it at release? Seems they want our money without having to show a complete product.

I'd rather pay 400 for an incomplete product then 1400. They know exactly what they are doing!

just my take on it

Celshader
02-22-2009, 03:15 PM
Yes they are!
how much is core now? how much is it at release? Seems they want our money without having to show a complete product.

I'd rather pay 400 for an incomplete product then 1400. They know exactly what they are doing!

just my take on it

I don't see how you'll pay anything near $1400. $395 is the pre-order price for the upgrade. When CORE is released, the upgrade price from 9.6 will cost $695 (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/faq.php), not $1400.

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 03:28 PM
your right on the price... but
I still think they are trying be slimy and deceptive. Maybe I'm paranoid, wonder why?

I think its real f'ed up that they let people join hardcore before they let them know that they weren't going to get a full featured app upon release.

Bill_Evans
02-22-2009, 03:39 PM
"For now, our primary focus for LightWave CORE will be in the modeling environment. We have had so many ideas for modeling in the past, but we really needed the CORE architecture to take it to a whole new level. Of course, CORE is capable of anything, but we did need to start somewhere -- modeling was a good choice, and modeling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year."

let me quote that again: "modeling will be the primary focus for the Lightwave CORE release later this year"



Yes jin, and no matter how many people point out that release later this year with a focus on modeling means the first beta in March (as Jay quite distinctly said in his followup post which you are also quoting from), you still seem to not want to understand. As for not all the features of 9.6 being in Core 1.0 as the end of the year, alot of features of 1.0 Lightwave on my Amiga aren't in 9.6, and yet I seem to be able to do much better animation with Lightwave 9.6 then with Lightwave 1.0, your mileage may vary.
-bill

Celshader
02-22-2009, 03:43 PM
your right on the price... but
I still think they are trying be slimy and deceptive. Maybe I'm paranoid, wonder why?

I think its real f'ed up that they let people join hardcore before they let them know that they weren't going to get a full featured app upon release.

From what Chuck Baker and Jay Roth have posted on this forum, it sounds like CORE will ship with a CORE-friendly edition of the original LightWave application.

So folks will be able to do everything they can do right now in LightWave 9.6, plus whatever they can do in CORE.

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 03:44 PM
Yes jin, and no matter how many people point out that release later this year with a focus on modeling means the first beta in March (as Jay quite distinctly said in his followup post which you are also quoting from), you still seem to not want to understand. As for not all the features of 9.6 being in Core 1.0 as the end of the year, alot of features of 1.0 Lightwave on my Amiga aren't in 9.6, and yet I seem to be able to do much better animation with Lightwave 9.6 then with Lightwave 1.0, your mileage may vary.
-bill

Good point, but the proof is in the pudding, not your post.

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 03:51 PM
From what Chuck Baker and Jay Roth have posted on this forum, it sounds like CORE will ship with a CORE-friendly edition of the original LightWave application.

So folks will be able to do everything they can do right now in LightWave 9.6, plus whatever they can do in CORE.

I hope you are correct, but in reality it doesnt matter, cause 9.6 works for me.

Bill_Evans
02-22-2009, 03:55 PM
Good point, but the proof is in the pudding, not your post.

Its just not as complex as Jin seems to be making it. Newtek is coming out with a new version of lightwave, its going to be called Core. You upgrade your current 9.0 version of lightwave its $395 now, $495 after March 31st and if you wait till it ships in December of 2009, it will cost you $695. If you buy in at either the 395 or 495 time you get to be part of the Open Beta for the new version. The new version will run on Windows, Mac and Linux at both 32 and 64 bit. Its really that simple. New version of lightwave, likely the biggest improvement ever for the system, buy it now for cheap, buy it later for more. Its not Rocket Science, I do Rocket Science, this is much much easier.
-Bil

jin choung
02-22-2009, 04:00 PM
Yes jin, and no matter how many people point out that release later this year with a focus on modeling means the first beta in March (as Jay quite distinctly said in his followup post which you are also quoting from), you still seem to not want to understand.

haha... actually, "later this year" CERTAINLY does not sound like first quarter to me. honestly, does it to ANYONE?

forgive me if i read that particular bit as perhaps an unintentional revelation.

listen, chuck said that they will be clarifying. instead of playing defender of newtek's honor, let's just wait to hear what the clarification is ok?

jin

Myagi
02-22-2009, 04:01 PM
Its not Rocket Science, I do Rocket Science, this is much much easier.

But the concept of eating your cake and having it might give rocket science a run for its money ;)

Myagi
02-22-2009, 04:03 PM
haha... actually, "later this year" CERTAINLY does not sound like first quarter to me. honestly, does it to ANYONE?

I'll take the chance of making a fool of myself, but don't you have to take into account Jay's follow up post to that, where he specifically clarified that modelling focus was for the Q1 build.

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 04:16 PM
The thing for me is past experience with NT. After seeing the core reveal and how far they are along. I cant bring myself to believe that they are going to have a fully capable 3d app in Q4. Saying is one think doing is another!

I am also not to happy about paying for features a second time that were supposed to be in v9.

In my opinion exaggeration from NT at this point is the worst thing they could do... They cant afford to loose anymore customers.

Celshader
02-22-2009, 04:23 PM
...in reality it doesnt matter, cause 9.6 works for me.


I am also not to happy about paying for features a second time that were supposed to be in v9.

If 9.6 works for you, what's the problem? Why do you need CORE?

Myagi
02-22-2009, 04:26 PM
I am also not to happy about paying for features a second time that were supposed to be in v9.

That is a big reason why we aren't getting that much info now. This time they don't want to say that feature so and so might make it, because if it doesn't people get angry even if they made it clear that it was a desired goal, not a guarantee.

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 04:30 PM
If 9.6 works for you, what's the problem? Why do you need CORE?

LOL...don't need it, but would like to get in for cheap, as long as I am not being scammed. SHOW ME THE MONEY... I don't want to hear about what core may be. If they REALLY want to sell core they would show great features. The fact that they cant is typical NT!

Celshader
02-22-2009, 04:38 PM
LOL...don't need it, but would like to get in for cheap...

I do not see the point in spending money on things that you do not need, no matter what the price.

If 9.6 does everything you need, hold onto 9.6 and save yourself $395.

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 04:49 PM
I do not see the point in spending money on things that you do not need, no matter what the price.

If 9.6 does everything you need, hold onto 9.6 and save yourself $395.
Not sure if you are trying to warn me, or get rid of me?:D

Well I definitely am sure I dont need it in its current state.

I would like to have it cause it will be the future of LW. Id rather keep up with the software then depend on software that is not going to be relevant in a few years.

That said... I am starting to believe that 9.6 will be the app to use for the next 2/3 years. We will see...

Celshader
02-22-2009, 05:09 PM
Well I definitely am sure I dont need it in its current state.

I would like to have it cause it will be the future of LW. Id rather keep up with the software then depend on software that is not going to be relevant in a few years.

Hm. If you know you'll use the latest version of LightWave two or three years from now, I guess it's a no-brainer to pre-order CORE now, save yourself $300/year on LightWave upgrades, and get a headstart on learning CORE from the ground up. If it's something you're going to buy anyway, you might as well get it cheap and learn it early.

If LightWave is not your main application, though, consider wringing every last drop out of the old version before upgrading. I do that with all of my non-LightWave applications. For example, I've used Photoshop 4.0 since 1997. I might upgrade this year, because 4.0 won't run on 64-bit Windows. By not buying $200 upgrades for the past seven versions, I saved $1400 -- more than enough for a full license of the latest version.

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 05:29 PM
Well 3d is a pasion so I wont be stopping any time soon. I do mostly actionscript programing, but id say about a 1/3 of my work is 3d in one way or another.

I do plan on getting hardcore, but like this thread says... They need to show me more.

mikala
02-22-2009, 05:56 PM
I hope they don't show more. It'll keep the whiners out of the Beta.

animotion
02-22-2009, 06:11 PM
I hope they don't show more. It'll keep the whiners out of the Beta.

Thats an interesting observation.

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 06:14 PM
I hope they don't show more. It'll keep the whiners out of the Beta.

Yeah, but it will also keep money out of NTs pocket...

mikala
02-22-2009, 06:15 PM
Pretty sure they'll be fine.
Off to the Core now :) Later

bp_jigits
02-22-2009, 06:20 PM
Pretty sure they'll be fine.
Off to the Core now :) Later

So long sucker...:jester:

frantbk
02-22-2009, 09:46 PM
For what it is worth, I think that the mere fact that this is being debated shows that NewTek hasn't released enough information about CORE to satisfy the market. People shouldn't have to buy based on faith.

:thumbsup: I agree. I don't believe you should have to pay $395-495.00 just to receive answers about general questions that anyone considering Lightwave core. From what I've seen on the forum only HardCore membership is given the time-of-day (exception to this is the Plug-in debate in one thread). :beta: buy in and have your questions answered :beta:. :thumbsdow (am I whining - hell yes).

frantbk
02-22-2009, 09:50 PM
I hope they don't show more. It'll keep the whiners out of the Beta.

Not only will it keep money out of NT pocket. Once the word gets around NT doesn't want anything to do with you unless your paying them - well it doesn't take a PHD in marketing to figure out the upshot. :ohmy:

Celshader
02-22-2009, 10:06 PM
:thumbsup: I agree. I don't believe you should have to pay $395-495.00 just to receive answers about general questions that anyone considering Lightwave core. From what I've seen on the forum only HardCore membership is given the time-of-day (exception to this is the Plug-in debate in one thread). :beta: buy in and have your questions answered :beta:. :thumbsdow (am I whining - hell yes).

So...don't pre-order CORE, then. Wait until 1.0 is released to see if it's worth $695. If it is, great. If not, stick with 9.6 and save yourself $695.

Celshader
02-22-2009, 10:12 PM
Not only will it keep money out of NT pocket. Once the word gets around NT doesn't want anything to do with you unless your paying them - well it doesn't take a PHD in marketing to figure out the upshot. :ohmy:

Yeah. I expect to see you, jin choung, and bp_jigits regularly posting on the HardCORE forum after you all cave in and pre-order CORE.

:ohmy:

Myagi
02-22-2009, 10:17 PM
that sounds like a threat :D

jin choung
02-22-2009, 10:59 PM
Yeah. I expect to see you, jin choung, and bp_jigits regularly posting on the HardCORE forum after you all cave in and pre-order CORE.

that may well be the case... all we're asking for is some CLARITY.

i know. it's a lot to ask.

jin

IMI
02-22-2009, 11:44 PM
Yeah... I guess all of those FREE updates all throughout the 9.x cycle we were all paying Newtek. :ohmy:

Get a grip. Do you have any idea of what you're talking about? Right. Didn't think so. :)

Ha-Ha! (in my best Nelson Muntz voice) You caved in first. I've been tempted (particularly in the modo 401 thread), but I outlasted you, at least. :D

Sekhar
02-23-2009, 12:24 AM
That is simply NOT fair! :D

Okay.... starting again.... NOW. :)

You bullies. :)

stone
02-23-2009, 03:31 AM
If they REALLY want to sell core they would show great features. The fact that they cant is typical NT!

in case you hadnt noticed - no other company shows or promises features before they are implemented and ready to ship. by most applications you dont even get a feature list until its in the box. claiming its typical newtek when they actually are the one company who cares to communicate with you only goes to show on which side of the fence the problem lies.

the worst thing about lightwave is the userbase and the lack of common sense. newtek would be so much better of by keeping their lips sealed until release day, but im sure that would get you complaining just as much.

/stone

stone
02-23-2009, 03:35 AM
that may well be the case... all we're asking for is some CLARITY.

i know. it's a lot to ask.

jin

it is a lot to ask from an application that isnt even in beta. you go to autodesk, maxon ect and ask for similar clarity and confirmation to that you are so desperately banging and bringing newtek down for, and see how little they care. its fine you are passionate about lightwave and its development but the mindless ranting is truly irrelevant and gets really tiresome fast.

/stone

Frank_Geppert
02-23-2009, 04:03 AM
"But it might be that they just bundle 9.6 and Core and let them communicate over the HUB to justify this price. We will see."
Yikes! I will quit 3D all together if that ever happens. . .how absurd. NT is smarter than that and there is nothing futuristic about classic layout and hubbing it to a modeler.

Jason, you can quit 3d now ;)
Chuck just said exactly what I speculated here. He said we will get an improved Lightwave together with the first Core version and there will be communicating features between both apps.

It is not that bad, it makes much sense to me, better than releasing an incomplete app.

frantbk
02-23-2009, 10:40 AM
Yeah. I expect to see you, jin choung, and bp_jigits regularly posting on the HardCORE forum after you all cave in and pre-order CORE.

:ohmy:


:hat: I'll take a vacation before if buy into any vaporware.

frantbk
02-23-2009, 10:44 AM
So...don't pre-order CORE, then. Wait until 1.0 is released to see if it's worth $695. If it is, great. If not, stick with 9.6 and save yourself $695.

You seem to misread what I'm about. I haven't had any intention of buy 9.x since NT announced lightwave 10.x, and that lightwave 10.x would be a departure from all previous versions. I don't have the need to own every version of Lightwave ever made. I'm not a software junkie like the majority here.

frantbk
02-23-2009, 10:47 AM
Yeah... I guess all of those FREE updates all throughout the 9.x cycle we were all paying Newtek. :ohmy:

Get a grip. Do you have any idea of what you're talking about? Right. Didn't think so. :)

Maybe you should spend some time out doors away from the computer. Most of your post lately are so full of angst. Plus, why are you always asking and answering your own questions? Hey I'm not talking to Donald Rumsfeld. Bud I thought you were writing a book about your failed stint in the Bush white house? ;)

bp_jigits
02-23-2009, 11:01 AM
some of them have no hope! their sole purpose in life is to defend everything LW...Blindly!

Celshader
02-23-2009, 11:02 AM
:hat: I'll take a vacation before if buy into any vaporware.

some of them have no hope! their sole purpose life is to defend everything LW...Blindly!

Uh-huh. See you on the HardCORE forums. ;)

bp_jigits
02-23-2009, 11:05 AM
Uh-huh. See you on the HardCORE forums. ;)

wasnt refering to you...:thumbsup: and yes I will be there eventually

Dennik
02-23-2009, 11:17 AM
Although I'm a faithful Lightwaver for the past 13 years (whatever that means) and I've pretty much stuck with the program along my career as employee and freelancer, I hate to say that those marketing tricks of viral campaigns followed by 15min videos that promise a lot, but show nothing can't convince anyone unless they are fanboys.

I'm not a fanboy. I use LW to get he job done and the story ends there.
Its not that I can't pay for the membership. I can pay it off with the income from a (VERY) small project. Money is not the issue here for any professional.
The issue is the tactics of extortion like "Buy this vaporware now while its cheap, otherwise the price will double in the future"
I've seen this marketing before but it was for products ready to deliver, or products that had something significant to show.

So as much as I hate it, I won't be lured into buying a membership before March.

Please respect and understand my point of view as a customer.
Wow me and I'll buy.

bp_jigits
02-23-2009, 11:30 AM
Although I'm a faithful Lightwaver for the past 13 years (whatever that means) and I've pretty much stuck with the program along my career as employee and freelancer, I hate to say that those marketing tricks of viral campaigns followed by 15min videos that promise a lot, but show nothing can't convince anyone unless they are fanboys.

I'm not a fanboy. I use LW to get he job done and the story ends there.
Its not that I can't pay for the membership. I can pay it off with the income from a (VERY) small project. Money is not the issue here for any professional.
The issue is the tactics of extortion like "Buy this vaporware now while its cheap, otherwise the price will double in the future"
I've seen this marketing before but it was for products ready to deliver, or products that had something significant to show.

So as much as I hate it, I won't be lured into buying a membership before March.

Please respect and understand my point of view as a customer.
Wow me and I'll buy.

very well put... I feel the exact same way!


The issue is the tactics of extortion like "Buy this vaporware now while its cheap, otherwise the price will double in the future"

This angers me to no end as well... It shows no respect for their users. Do they think we are that stupid? Well I guess a few of us are!

I am fine with people preordering, but preorder knowing that you are buying vaporware just cause its cheap. Please dont try to pretend otherwise. It looks bad for you!!!:thumbsup:

Myagi
02-23-2009, 11:34 AM
"Buy this vaporware now while its cheap, otherwise the price will double in the future"

That's so not true, which is probably why a lot of people have a hard time understanding all the whining. You can wait all the way until Q4 right before it's released, and you probably have all (or close to all) the details in front of you, and then still buy it at the discount price of $495. Only if you wait until after the released will it be the full price $695.

The $395 offer, is a $100 rebate on a rebate, as a little compensation for buying the cat in the bag. It's not buy now knowing nothing or pay full price.

Greenlaw
02-23-2009, 12:10 PM
Does anybody else find it bizarre that some here believe NewTek is trying to trap or trick people into buying a HardCORE membership?

Nobody is making you buy a HardCORE membership.

You can decide to buy the software at the end of the year when CORE 1.0's complete feature list is announced and the final version is released. And if it turns out that CORE 1.0 isn't what you needed or wanted, nobody will make you buy it then either.

Greenlaw

dgrigo
02-23-2009, 12:39 PM
Does anybody else find it bizarre that some here believe NewTek is trying to trap or trick people into buying a HardCORE membership?

Nobody is making you buy a HardCORE membership.

You can decide to buy the software at the end of the year when CORE 1.0's complete feature list is announced and the final version is released. And if it turns out that CORE 1.0 isn't what you needed or wanted, nobody will make you buy it then either.

Greenlaw

I Agree!

I Joined , just to support NT to bring out a new Version of lightwave , and just cause i feel they deserve it, being friendly and generous with the latest Updates of 9.x..

mav3rick
02-23-2009, 12:49 PM
Well 3d is a pasion so I wont be stopping any time soon. I do mostly actionscript programing, but id say about a 1/3 of my work is 3d in one way or another.

I do plan on getting hardcore, but like this thread says... They need to show me more.

man i am tyred of reading your posts. not just yours.. there is more of guys thinking like you.. how about come back year later and see what is core about... put 20$ a month away ( probable less than you eat per day) and by end of year you will get extra 200 $ exactly that much you will need to join HC if you own 9.x lw. ofcourse this mean you already have 400 ready... so can we stop now from listening this BIG problem story of how do i get 200$ more for core after of 31.march.
there is people like dgrigo , me and lot others that are confident into lw develop team and they ordered CORE membership to help and support it develop.
Not just to give money for develop but to give my knowledge and help into pointing CORE develop to right direction.
this kind of things do not happen often in 3d industry to be able to contribute developing new age 3d app so why shouldnt i give support to newtek.
If i give support to developers like worley, kraytracing, trueard, pictrix, tufflittleunit(now NT guys) and others i see really no bit deal to give 400 to newtek.

and again interesting thing i would like to point out.. i feel like bj/dennik and guys like them appear over night... according to 30 posts they just joined in to troll and bash this forum... really pointless

jin choung
02-23-2009, 01:15 PM
it is a lot to ask from an application that isnt even in beta. you go to autodesk, maxon ect and ask for similar clarity and confirmation to that you are so desperately banging and bringing newtek down for, and see how little they care. its fine you are passionate about lightwave and its development but the mindless ranting is truly irrelevant and gets really tiresome fast.

/stone


and what of those companies will sell you a product before it's even in alpha?

listen, if you're fine with it great. not all of us are. we want clarifications.

and if you don't like it, please, put me on your ignore list. your incessant use of the word "irrelevant" like it's going out of style is getting quite tiresome for me.

jin

frantbk
02-23-2009, 02:24 PM
Does anybody else find it bizarre that some here believe NewTek is trying to trap or trick people into buying a HardCORE membership?

Nobody is making you buy a HardCORE membership.

The question, for me, isn't that they are trying to trap someone into HarCore membership. The question is, is NT being stupid only addressing questions from the membership and not from the general forum. Remember NT is the one that sent me the email about the Core meltdown.


You can decide to buy the software at the end of the year when CORE 1.0's complete feature list is announced and the final version is released. And if it turns out that CORE 1.0 isn't what you needed or wanted, nobody will make you buy it then either.

Greenlaw

Which destroys you view that NT isn't trying to force people into HardCore membership for answer on Lightwave core 1.x. If I call the NT sales rep. and ask all of the question here, will they state that information is for HardCore members only? Will they say: "At this time we don't have any information on Lightwave Core 1.x. Please call back in the 4Q."

Think about what you're saying. How do you get new customers to join HardCore Membership if you can't answer any questions. NewTek needs to publish once a month the 5-to-10 most asked questions about Lightwave Core 1.x so people can make an informed buy. Once all of the vaporware buyers are memberships purchases will fall off pretty sharp until the release of Lightwave Core 1.x (A proven fact of marketing).

ctuller
02-23-2009, 02:43 PM
I'm not really sure why some folks on both sides of the argument are so bent out of shape on this.

hardCore memebership in it's simplest form is just a prepaid preorder of LW upgrade. I don't see this any differnet than a number of other apps (granted mostly games but still) that offer 'early beta access' for preorder customers.
If you aren't into that sort of thing (and I know that many are not) than sit back and wait for Newtek to relase more info until you think you can make an informed decision.

To the OP, it's prefectly reasonable to ask for more details before you make a preorder decision or wait until the product has been released and read the reviews. I am sure that as the beta progresses and the product gets more bake time you will get as much info as you need to make a decision.

On the other hand if folks are whining because they want the info *now* so they can get in on the earlybird save a hundred bucks deal, well that's just silly.

clagman
02-23-2009, 02:45 PM
I have to say, that is pretty ridiculous. They should be pretty ready to provide details about the new product to people to attract new members to HC. In the ad world the person who came up with that system would have been laughed out of the room.

Tranimatronic
02-23-2009, 03:44 PM
and again interesting thing i would like to point out.. i feel like bj/dennik and guys like them appear over night... according to 30 posts they just joined in to troll and bash this forum... really pointless

I see both sides of the core argument. I am really looking forward to finding out more about it and I MIGHT be joining HardCore.

I do have an issue with this attitude that only people that have posted over a certain amount of times are entitled to an opinion on this. I had forgotten I was a member of this forum - I was busy using Lightwave for a living. Hence my very low number of posts here.

Please remember though - I was invited here by Newtek, to find out / discuss more about Core. I am interested to hear about Core - god knows theres precious little coming from Newtek at the moment.
Your opinion is no more worthy just because youve posted more questions here. Generally the core threads have core in the title. If youre not interested anymore - stop reading them.

ncr100
02-23-2009, 04:14 PM
oh no... oh nononononono....

it's worse than that. read jay's post. http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=837851&postcount=204

it's NOT GOING TO BE DONE for 1.0. period. i think the expectation of most people was that it was going to be like maya 1.0. a complete app. but if you take out some of the hemming and hawing, it looks like it might be more like modo - the whole app might not actually be there.

...


you're missing the point of the 9.6 comparison. 9.6 is a "full 3d app". CORE 1.0 will NOT BE.

it will be mostly modeler with "more". but whatever more is, they've indicated it will not be a complete 3d app yet.

...


...
even WITH all the hemming and hawing and qualifying and diluting, isn't it pretty clear? i think so. and if you try to read between the lines a little, which we're almost forced to do...

jin

Jin is dissembling in these posts.

In Jay's post he Jin links to he does not state CORE will not be a complete app.

Only Jin states this. Jin makes outrageous statements, and backs them up with misrepresentations of linked posts and literally admission of "reading between the lines".

Why do you write this incorrect statement as if it is fact Jin? Why are you repeating inaccurate statements?


that may well be the case... all we're asking for is some CLARITY.

i know. it's a lot to ask.

jin


and what of those companies will sell you a product before it's even in alpha?

listen, if you're fine with it great. not all of us are. we want clarifications.

and if you don't like it, please, put me on your ignore list. your incessant use of the word "irrelevant" like it's going out of style is getting quite tiresome for me.

jin

Jin, you might get answers if you ask questions. You are more experienced than I am at this stuff ... show us what we should be asking of NT for the final product!

Also, provide us with a reason to believe you otherwise you will see more of this in the future:


...

you didnt really read the actual post did you? just trying to boost your post count with irrelevant comments..
...
/stone

jin choung
02-23-2009, 04:30 PM
Jin is dissembling in these posts.

In Jay's post he Jin links to he does not state CORE will not be a complete app.

Only Jin states this. Jin makes outrageous statements, and backs them up with misrepresentations of linked posts and literally admission of "reading between the lines".

Why do you write this incorrect statement as if it is fact Jin? Why are you repeating inaccurate statements?





Jin, you might get answers if you ask questions. You are more experienced than I am at this stuff ... show us what we should be asking of NT for the final product!

Also, provide us with a reason to believe you otherwise you will see more of this in the future:

if you're going to call me a liar, quote what i'm quoting from newtek. you say that i'm misinterpreting when i say it's not a complete app. i say that it is a reasonable interpretation between the hemming and hawing.

if you say that my interpretation is a lie, i call yours a lie.

ALL THEY HAVE TO SAY IS THAT CORE 1.0 will be akin to MAYA 1.0... a complete app. NOT MODELER +.

THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE TO SAY.

if you want us to shut up, please, go over there and GET THEM TO SAY THAT.

jin

cresshead
02-23-2009, 04:39 PM
if you're going to call me a liar, quote what i'm quoting from newtek. you say that i'm misinterpreting when i say it's not a complete app. i say that it is a reasonable interpretation between the hemming and hawing.

if you say that my interpretation is a lie, i call yours a lie.

ALL THEY HAVE TO SAY IS THAT CORE 1.0 will be akin to MAYA 1.0... a complete app. NOT MODELER +.

THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE TO SAY.

if you want us to shut up, please, go over there and GET THEM TO SAY THAT.

jin

i think if they really knew, they would tell us...2 years in design does not mean 2 years making it...i think they've just started to make it..

march 31 is not that far off to make a desicsion and will be in good time to also see what/where modo 401 is all about for this year too for you...i jumped onto Core early...though i don't depend on lightwave currently..more like zbrush and 3dsmax at the moment.

jin choung
02-23-2009, 04:46 PM
i think if they really knew, they would tell us...2 years in design does not mean 2 years making it...i think they've just started to make it..

and that IS the interpretation that i do take away from what they've said.

it is the funboys that resolutely can't believe that and call me liar and blah blah blah.

and so my objections are as much for those who believe in newtek as those who don't.

everyone hears "CORE 1.0" and they believe it to be delivered quarter 4 ala maya 1.0.

almost every fanboy believes this. your interpretation and mine leaves that as an open question.

***so what's it gonna be***?

especially for the sake of people who believe they're getting something whole and complete by the time q4 rolls around, they owe it to them to be clear.

and it ALSO sounds like they're gonna stop and call it a day BEFORE THEY FINISH. if they get to .75 by q4, that's what you bought. instead of what most people are expecting of just working on 1.0 until it's feature complete.

these are my questions. these are the things that need to be clarified. because some are claiming that i spread lies. i see others as being patently blind.

so yes. clarification IS in order. and if 1.0 is gonna be "whatever we can pull off in that time frame"... fine... but THAT MUST BE MADE CLEAR.

i don't know why anyone has a problem with THAT.

jin

hrgiger
02-23-2009, 05:02 PM
I bought my membership and I'm planning on Core not being complete Q4. I think more people should at least entertain this fact. I'm already writing down my arguments for everyone who said they were promised something that they weren't for after the release.

I've got about 15 pages so far.

bobakabob
02-23-2009, 05:04 PM
and that IS the interpretation that i do take away from what they've said.

it is the funboys that resolutely can't believe that and call me liar and blah blah blah.

and so my objections are as much for those who believe in newtek as those who don't.

everyone hears "CORE 1.0" and they believe it to be delivered quarter 4 ala maya 1.0.

almost every fanboy believes this. your interpretation and mine leaves that as an open question.

***so what's it gonna be***?

especially for the sake of people who believe they're getting something whole and complete by the time q4 rolls around, they owe it to them to be clear.

and it ALSO sounds like they're gonna stop and call it a day BEFORE THEY FINISH. if they get to .75 by q4, that's what you bought. instead of what most people are expecting of just working on 1.0 until it's feature complete.

these are my questions. these are the things that need to be clarified. because some are claiming that i spread lies. i see others as being patently blind.

so yes. clarification IS in order. and if 1.0 is gonna be "whatever we can pull off in that time frame"... fine... but THAT MUST BE MADE CLEAR.

i don't know why anyone has a problem with THAT.

jin

Give it a rest. You can choose to invest now, later or not at all. It's that simple :)

jin choung
02-23-2009, 05:09 PM
Give it a rest.

no.

jin

jaxtone
02-23-2009, 05:17 PM
I can assure you Tranimatronic that this guy is one hundred percent a Fanboy! It doesnīt matter what arguments youīve got and either does it matter what facts you have, heīs just totally against any form of critisism against NT and Lightwave! (I donīt think that they afford every hard word that have been said but you can never kill critics with censor ship!)

I donīt think itīs a good alternative to treat mature people with 3D as a profession in the way he does and would rather believe that an open climate for discussions with arguments for or against different issues reminds me more about a true democracy than the opposite!


I see both sides of the core argument. I am really looking forward to finding out more about it and I MIGHT be joining HardCore.

I do have an issue with this attitude that only people that have posted over a certain amount of times are entitled to an opinion on this. I had forgotten I was a member of this forum - I was busy using Lightwave for a living. Hence my very low number of posts here.

Please remember though - I was invited here by Newtek, to find out / discuss more about Core. I am interested to hear about Core - god knows theres precious little coming from Newtek at the moment.
Your opinion is no more worthy just because youve posted more questions here. Generally the core threads have core in the title. If youre not interested anymore - stop reading them.
__________________________________________________ _______
la la im not listening.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mav3rick
and again interesting thing i would like to point out.. i feel like bj/dennik and guys like them appear over night... according to 30 posts they just joined in to troll and bash this forum... really pointless

jaxtone
02-23-2009, 05:21 PM
I have never dropped into a debate or conversation with you earlier so this is a premiere! But Iīve just got to ask you this question:

Have you ever heard about women, females, chicks, girls or mothers in law that "always" want to have the last word in a discussion?

Well.. even if you heard this or not, to me itīs definitely a female thing! :D



no.

jin

wfstecko
02-23-2009, 06:35 PM
Who cares about Core? I'm here for all the drama.:argue:

Seriously, if you want to buy it, then do so. If not then don't. Who cares?

I bought it. If I'm not happy with it a year from now then I'll move on to a different app.

Walter