PDA

View Full Version : Update on the 64-bit Cocoa version



Chilton
02-12-2009, 06:04 AM
Hi,

This is a minor update regarding our plans, and there's nothing 'between the lines' here. So to anyone reading this, looking for an official statement regarding a solid roadmap going forward, these aren't the droids you're looking for.

But I said I'd get you something, so here it is.

The short answer is that the decisions regarding the Cocoa 64-bit Mac version's deployment actually haven't been made yet. This is mainly because the product is obviously not ready right now, and it has taken a lot longer to make than the rest of the 9.6 product line.

And as you probably guessed, it's somewhat outside of the design of LightWaveCORE. So right now, the Cocoa version is essentially an extensive rewrite that will only be available to Mac users, and there's no solid timeline for its release. As we get closer to having an actual product ready for testing, decisions about what to do with it will surface, and at that time I suspect we'll find out more.

So for now, just keep in mind that no public statement regarding how it will be handled has been issued, at all. All that NewTek has said about it so far is that it's coming, and that it will be available to the HardCore users *first*.

That's all the info there is about this topic at this time.

Additionally, questions or concerns about this should be directed to NewTek Customer Service.

Thank you,
-Chilton

Kuzey
02-12-2009, 06:49 AM
You should make this a sticky thread.

I hope it's sooner rather than later :hey:

Thanks,
Kuzey

3dworks
02-12-2009, 07:56 AM
thanks for this 'unofficial' update, chilton... well, this doesn't sound really - cough, cough - encouraging, to say the least...

for me and also a few other still remaining LW mac users which i know doing the same kind of work, it seems to become increasingly a question of keeping (or expanding) LW as main 3d app or not. switching forth and back from one OS to the other for another 6 months - or maybe more - is something which obviously nobody will be happy to do.

the disappointing side is that we have been promised this version for such a long time already - and somehow the message we got from all those threads in the last moths here on the forum was that the UB64 version would have been finalized shortly after the release of 9.6 UB, being part of that same development. seems we got this wrong.

while i can understand that there may be other plans on NT's side, i hope there's some rethinking about priorities. last but not least it's how about to treat loyal, long time waiting customers which have been promised *parity* between mac and windows versions.

cheers and good luck

markus

Limbus
02-12-2009, 08:56 AM
Thanks for the update from me as well. Unfotunatly this means that I won't be able to use LW on the Mac for most projects since 64 Bit is a must most of the time.

Cheers, Florian

Chilton
02-12-2009, 08:57 AM
Hi,

I realize the question I'm answering implies that there's been a change of plan, but so far I believe the only thing NT's announced is a more aggressive release plan for the HardCORE group, and nothing more.

And this doesn't have any impact on the release schedule, or the speed at which it's coming together.

-Chilton

Scazzino
02-12-2009, 09:35 AM
Thanks for the update Chilton... sitting tight here... now get back to work on that 64-bit Cocoa so we can get it sooner rather than later, however we get it... ;)

Otterman
02-13-2009, 12:00 AM
I'm really struggling with my current 32bit lw setup here and really reluctant to jump ship but I'm kinda feeling im still in the dark regarding 64bit development. I mean it's progress and release plans have been pretty flaky in the past- and in light of recent announcements..it sounds like It might b taking a backseat. Anyhow that's how I interpret it and don't wanna flame newtek. . Just getting frustrated with the current situation.

Chilton again we appreciate your stuck between a rock and a hard place but we appreciate your endeavours man.

Chilton
02-13-2009, 05:49 AM
Hi,


I'm really struggling with my current 32bit lw setup here and really reluctant to jump ship but I'm kinda feeling im still in the dark regarding 64bit development. I mean it's progress and release plans have been pretty flaky in the past- and in light of recent announcements..it sounds like It might b taking a backseat.

What I'm getting at with this thread and a few others is that all of the negative theories about the Cocoa version are currently unfounded. It's just not ready *yet*, which I think everyone already knows, because it's not on the download page.

The only thing we've actually stated with absolute certainty is that HardCORE members will get the Cocoa version first. That makes sense, because one of the perks of the HardCORE program is that you get to be closer to the development efforts in general.

And the only thing that we've changed on the development side is that I am spending more time here explaining this :hey:

LightWaveCORE needs very little effort to be cross-platform. That's one of the reasons we went with Qt. A bulk of our Mac specific development effort is going into the Cocoa version right now, because it's not actually needed as much with Qt.

-Chilton

littlewaves
02-13-2009, 06:21 AM
here's what confuses me (and maybe I'm just easily confused)
I'd sort of assumed that Lightwave core was being developed as cocoa AND 64bit from the start?

i.e. if I sign up for Hardcore then the first beta I get of lightwavecore (before the end of this quarter??) will be cocoa and 64bit?

Are we just talking about the wait for 9.6 cocoa/64bit. It says LWCore users will be the "first" to get the cocoa version. Surely LCORE is cocoa anyway and this cocoa version has nothing to do with the LW9.6 cocoa version

Here's what I'm afraid of. I sign (pay) up for core and then on March the 29th (or april 1st!) I get the email saying "come and get the beta" but then I get there and there's no Mac version at all (like zbrush 3 all over again) because the cocoa version ain't ready and why would you be coding it in carbon?

There's been a lot of talk of parity between operating systems and how core will mean that disparity isn't even an issue but the impression I'm getting is that the MAC core beta will be behind the windows core version in that it won't be 64bit from the start and we'll start the whole cycle again of hearing that 64bit is being worked on but we're not sure when we'll get it and then we'll start speculating about LW11...

On a scale of 1 to 10 how paranoid am I being? (only Chilton can answer this!)

dsol
02-13-2009, 06:53 AM
here's what confuses me (and maybe I'm just easily confused) I'd sort of assumed that Lightwave core was being developed as cocoa AND 64bit from the start? i.e. if I sign up for Hardcore then the first beta I get of lightwavecore (before the end of this quarter??) will be cocoa and 64bit?..
...
On a scale of 1 to 10 how paranoid am I being? (only Chilton can answer this!)

Well... I'm not Chilton (!), but I'm pretty sure they've already said that CORE on OSX is a cocoa app - so it's logical to assume it'll be 64bit from first release. Lightwave 9.6 UB is another matter - hence the Cocoa port of it being a big deal :)

Chilton
02-13-2009, 07:08 AM
Hi,

There are two different things that we'll be releasing.

There's the Cocoa 64-bit version of 9.6, which is a rewrite of the platform specific part of LightWave 9.6, in Cocoa. LightWave has always been based on the concept of platform compatibility layers called 'Opal'. This design probably sounded like a good idea when it was created, but sometimes leads to platform specific deficiencies on the Mac side. This version is basically LightWave with a Cocoa Opal layer.

And there's LightWaveCORE, which is an entirely different thing, and it's built on top of the Qt frameworks. Those are already natively based on Cocoa, on the Mac side of Qt, and thus needs no Opal compatibility layer. So a bulk of the platform specific issues just go away. In fact, LightWaveCORE has required very little Mac specific effort since its inception.

The Cocoa 64-bit version of 9.6 will be ready for testing soon. It's on a different timeline from the Qt version, because it's not in any substantial way tied to the LightWaveCORE project.

Normally, LightWave on both platforms is built at the same time, and always has been. There's zero lag between the two. When a change is checked in for the rendering engine, we have it immediately on the Mac side. We didn't ship 9.5 because of numerous (and mostly ancient) Mac specific bugs in the Carbon version that we decided had been passed over long enough, and had to be fixed before we could, in good conscience, call the Mac version 'finished'.

But the beat goes on. And by the time we had most of them under our thumb, 9.6 was almost ready. So we ended up skipping 9.5 entirely on the Mac, to fix those legacy bugs. And yes, if 9.6 had been built on Qt, there wouldn't have been any lag, because (in those cases) the specific bugs we were experiencing were issues in the UI, and that part is nailed down solid in Qt.

The Mac version of LightWaveCORE is already 64-bit compatible, but the Cocoa 64-bit version of 9.6 will be finished sooner.

-Chilton

Chilton
02-13-2009, 07:11 AM
littlewaves,

I don't think it's just you. I suspect everyone's a little paranoid right now, because you just found out about LightWaveCORE™. Just keep in mind that to us, it's just another day like yesterday, and the day before that, because we've been watching the CORE product mature at an alarming rate, for a very long time now.

-Chilton

littlewaves
02-13-2009, 07:23 AM
Okay thanks Chilton that clears things up quite a bit.

However...


The Mac version of LightWaveCORE is already 64-bit compatible, but the Cocoa 64-bit version of 9.6 will be finished sooner.

this confuses me a bit I'm afraid. Do you mean the 9.6 version will be finished sooner than the final release of LWCore OR do you mean it will be ready before the first LWCore beta (apparently available to hardcore members before end of q1).

Chilton
02-13-2009, 07:32 AM
Hi,

It will definitely be done before the final release of LightWaveCORE. I don't think we've officially stated exactly when that will be, though. That doesn't mean it's going to be before or after the end of Q1, or in 5 days, or 50. it means that we haven't said when it's going to be, yet. Just hang tight a little longer, and we'll probably put some kind of timeframe on it. We just stepped off the 9.6 Carbon train, and while we had moved the Cocoa version very far along, we stopped working on it a few months ago to finish 9.6. So while we're ramping up the Cocoa work again very quickly, it's too early to put a solid date on it yet. Obviously, we'd ALL like it to be done ASAP.

I do know this: It will be in your hands sometime after noon today. As in, any time from after noon today, to later this year :hey:

-Chilton

littlewaves
02-13-2009, 07:38 AM
okay one last question then I'm done I promise (at least until Monday)

The LWCore BETA which we've been told we WILL get our hands on before end of Q1 (if we join hardcore) will be Cocoa 64bit on mac from day one because core just is 64bit cocoa?

Chilton
02-13-2009, 07:42 AM
Hi,

That is correct.

-Chilton

littlewaves
02-13-2009, 07:46 AM
That is correct.

Excellent. Thanks. Sorry for the persistent paranoid pedantic pestering.

Chilton
02-13-2009, 08:08 AM
Abrupt alliteration's always acknowledged.

3dworks
02-13-2009, 08:39 AM
chilton, thanks for clarifying and understanding our paranoias :D

markus

jwiede
02-14-2009, 01:51 AM
Chilton,

W.r.t. the Cocoa version of 9.6, will that release be free for existing 9.x owners? Or do they have to be HardCORE members to get it? That didn't really get covered in the discussion of HardCORE-vs-non benefit distinctions.

Also, the 9.6 Cocoa version does have a unique ability to work around certain types of issues ("Rounder the Angel of Death" springs to mind) by putting some additional validation code into the action path. Are any solutions like that being considered to mitigate the cases where MacUB still seems significantly less stable than PC (e.g. crashes versus putting up error messages)?

Thanks so much for all your contributions, to 9.6, and to the Mac forums!

Kuzey
02-14-2009, 07:20 AM
I would think it would be free, but that decision hasn't been made by Newtek yet. Hardcore members will be the first to use it, but it will get to those who haven't joined at a later time...how later, who knows.

I'm hoping the 64bit will also fix a lot of those bugs as well, but I'll settle for a bug free Core from the get go :D

Kuzey

ELinder
02-14-2009, 09:18 AM
My lack of programming knowledge is about to show, but is there really any reason to put time into a 64 bit 9.6 modeler other than bug fixes? Layout I can understand with access to more memory and everything else, but couldn't a 32 bit modeler talk to a 64 bit layout via the hub? Would that speed up development, or open up a huge disgusting can of worms, or is it just a dumb idea?

At any rate, I also think they'll release it free after it is done testing with the HardCore group.

Erich

Chilton
02-14-2009, 09:23 AM
Hi Erich,

That's not a lack of programming knowledge, it's more about the somewhat secret way we build LightWave. (Note: This isn't really a secret, just not something that qualifies as interesting enough to be a bullet point on a T-Shirt.)

In reality, Modeler and Layout are based on the same central set of libraries, thus the Shared Support folder, and it's also why the apps themselves are tiny, relative to the size of most Mac apps these days. There's not a lot of app specific code in Modeler or Layout that is platform specific. There are some fundamental differences, but we address those largely in the central libraries. So when we say we're working on a 64-bit version of LightWave, it actually affects Modeler, Layout, and ScreamerNet at the same time.

-Chilton

ELinder
02-14-2009, 09:35 AM
Ah, interesting. So Modeler and Layout aren't really as self contained as it appears. So much for the "keep 'em separate" crowd. They already ain't. :D

Erich

Chilton
02-14-2009, 12:03 PM
Hi Erich,

I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's a good point!

-Chilton

jwiede
02-21-2009, 11:50 PM
Chilton, I realize my second question wasn't that clear, so let me try again:

There are popular tools which, when given erroneous selections to work on (mixes of edges/polys/etc.), generate error messages on PC LW. The same operations on Mac LW tend to cause LW to crash, no error given. It's easy to get Rounder to demonstrate the problem, and bugs have been open for some time (OB thread noting bug numbers (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93922)).

While finishing Cocoa/64 LW, is any effort be going towards tracking down such problems, at least making LW give error messages instead of crashing?

Even if Rounder could be the only such fix that happened, I know myself and a bunch of other Mac users who'd be pretty thrilled, because it is such an essential modeling tool.

Chilton
02-22-2009, 12:14 AM
Hi John,



While finishing Cocoa/64 LW, is any effort be going towards tracking down such problems, at least making LW give error messages instead of crashing?


Yes, absolutely.

We're not doing the conversion just for fun. We intend on using Cocoa to wipe out as many of the remaining Mac bugs as possible, some of which date back to 7.x and earlier.

-Chilton

eblu
02-22-2009, 11:00 AM
c'mon chilton, we all know better. You're doing the 64 bit port MOSTLY for fun. you can't fool us. opening up massive amounts of ram to LW, and fixing outstanding bugs are just side effects of Newtek's favorite playtime activity.

lwanmtr
02-22-2009, 03:26 PM
Sorry to put this in this thread, but I am still a little concerned that HardCore users arent gonna spend much time beta testing 9.6 cocoa...core will occupy much of their time..

And when will a decision be made as to wether cocoa will be available for 9.x users or of you have to join hardcore? (did I miss the answer somewhere?)

Chilton
02-22-2009, 03:37 PM
Hi,


Sorry to put this in this thread, but I am still a little concerned that HardCore users arent gonna spend much time beta testing 9.6 cocoa...core will occupy much of their time..

And when will a decision be made as to wether cocoa will be available for 9.x users or of you have to join hardcore? (did I miss the answer somewhere?)

This will be addressed as the Cocoa version gets closer to reality. Right now, we still have work to do. Yeah, I know it's a non-answer, but it's the only answer I have until the Cocoa version is a bit farther ahead.

-Chilton

Chilton
02-22-2009, 03:38 PM
Hi,


c'mon chilton, we all know better. You're doing the 64 bit port MOSTLY for fun. you can't fool us. opening up massive amounts of ram to LW, and fixing outstanding bugs are just side effects of Newtek's favorite playtime activity.

I won't kid you, this is a lot more fun with Cocoa.

-Chilton

lwanmtr
02-22-2009, 03:44 PM
I understand that, and know you dont have control... Just alot of us folks who cant afford HardCore atm are just a little worried.. (i still think the 9.x users otta be in on testing cocoa 9.6).

Will there be marshmallows? Is it real cocoa or hersheys?

Darth Mole
02-22-2009, 04:24 PM
Sorry to put this in this thread, but I am still a little concerned that HardCore users arent gonna spend much time beta testing 9.6 cocoa...core will occupy much of their time..

Well I'm a HardCORE member and I'll still be using LW 9.x just as often because CORE simply won't be a complete 3D solution from day one. None of my existing plug-ins will work with it and I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have to learn some new tricks with CORE. So if you're worried about the Cocoa UB getting beta-tested - don't!

jwiede
02-22-2009, 05:59 PM
I don't think anyone doubts that there will be HC members who use test Cocoa OB. The real question is whether HC coverage alone will provide enough breadth and focus to prevent nasty configuration-specific bugs from slipping into the release. Continuing the positive momentum of the LW UB 9.6 release likely requires as broad a Mac test pool as used in the 9.6 UB OB.

I'm fine with HC members getting first crack at the Cocoa OB. After a month or so, though, I think the Cocoa OB has to be opened to all Mac LW customers to achieve a high-quality release in a reasonable timeframe.

jwiede
02-23-2009, 12:06 AM
BTW, Chilton, thanks for the update on the Rounder bug, great to hear you folks plan to address it in the Cocoa release. Of the few remaining Mac modeler bugs, I can't think of any others that as consistently result in data loss.

lwanmtr
03-09-2009, 06:08 PM
has there been any new developments? been a while since we've heard anything....

Otterman
03-10-2009, 07:54 AM
Yeah im kinda feeling that all to familar feeling of being fobbed off again! We need to keep the pressure on this. Its important to so many of us mac users trying to make a living from lightwave now, today! I cant wait for core. The ambiguous feedback so far has left my patience wearing a little thin!

Come on newtek!

Chilton
03-10-2009, 08:26 AM
Hi,


Yeah im kinda feeling that all to familar feeling of being fobbed off again!

You are being unnecessarily paranoid.

The Cocoa version is coming along just fine. We still don't have a public release date, or anything even resembling it, because it's just not at that point yet.

-Chilton

Chilton
03-10-2009, 08:27 AM
Hi,


has there been any new developments? been a while since we've heard anything....

I'm sorry, but I don't have any progress I can report publicly at this point. It is in active development, but I assume everyone already knows this.

-Chilton

kopperdrake
03-10-2009, 08:28 AM
Thanks for this Chilton - we still use one Mac as a Mac and one as a Bootcamp PC running 64 bit. As and when the 64 bit Mac version comes out we'll move both over to that - the beauty of NT giving us access to all platform versions as part of the deal :)

CGI Addict
03-10-2009, 10:43 AM
PC users get 64 bit upgrade long time ago.... free

Mac users CONTINUE waiting for 64 bit.... $395 +

Newtek's handling of this.... priceless

I love using LW, but this isn't right in my book.

:thumbsdow

CGI Addict
03-10-2009, 11:45 AM
I believe you'll get your 64-bit UB free of charge if you own LightWave 9.x? Has NewTek said otherwise? You might just not be among the first to test drive it unless you sign up for HardCore, but I'm sure you'll get the final version.

I could be wrong. My point is that the MAC 64 bit roll-out shouldn't be tied into CORE at all. All Mac users should be given access to it when it first arrives, not just those who purchase CORE membership. That kind of policy raises doubts as to why Newtek is going that route, at least for me.

archijam
03-10-2009, 01:46 PM
I could be wrong. My point is that the MAC 64 bit roll-out shouldn't be tied into CORE at all. All Mac users should be given access to it when it first arrives, not just those who purchase CORE membership. That kind of policy raises doubts as to why Newtek is going that route, at least for me.

I understand your concern, but I suspect the realy CORE signups will mean they get the first beta of the '64 version - they did not mention any actual link between the core release and the 64 ..

3dworks
03-10-2009, 02:38 PM
I could be wrong. My point is that the MAC 64 bit roll-out shouldn't be tied into CORE at all. All Mac users should be given access to it when it first arrives, not just those who purchase CORE membership. That kind of policy raises doubts as to why Newtek is going that route, at least for me.

i did understand that hardcore members will get the beta as soon as it is 'open', all others the final 9.6 UB64 release, members or not. LW 9.6 will not be tied to CORE releases, i guess.

markus

3dworks
03-10-2009, 02:44 PM
Hi,



I'm sorry, but I don't have any progress I can report publicly at this point. It is in active development, but I assume everyone already knows this.

-Chilton

good to hear that UB64 is still in active development!

but will we see soon a bugfixed UB32 version as well? the released version apparently has major SDK issues with third party render engines on machines with more than 2 cores afaik, so a bug fixed version will be necessary as soon as possible. otherwise development, release and of course use with LW 9.6 of these third party engines will not be possible, on mac side...

cheers

markus

Haven1000
03-11-2009, 02:21 AM
good to hear that UB64 is still in active development!

but will we see soon a bugfixed UB32 version as well? the released version apparently has major SDK issues with third party render engines on machines with more than 2 cores afaik, so a bug fixed version will be necessary as soon as possible. otherwise development, release and of course use with LW 9.6 of these third party engines will not be possible, on mac side...

cheers

markus

Chilton what would be the chances of seeing a patch release to fix this bug?

I'm sure the squashing of this bug would effect most of the UB users and should make them VERY happy.

CGI Addict
03-11-2009, 10:12 AM
i did understand that hardcore members will get the beta as soon as it is 'open', all others the final 9.6 UB64 release, members or not. LW 9.6 will not be tied to CORE releases, i guess.

If this is the case—and more than one of you have hinted at it—I apologize to Newtek for earlier rant. Thanks for the clarification guys. :)

lwanmtr
03-11-2009, 03:24 PM
It's easy to get confused because NewTek hasnt made any 'official' announcement about cocoa lw being a free update or not...of course Chilton doesnt make those decisions, so I wouldnt bug him..but we really do need some definate info on that.

jwiede
03-13-2009, 11:51 AM
Markus, do you have a link to the thread discussing the multi-core problem?

3dworks
03-13-2009, 11:56 AM
Markus, do you have a link to the thread discussing the multi-core problem?

no, this emerged from internal testing...

3dworks
03-23-2009, 12:32 PM
so, apparently everyone is busy to get that first CORE version out? but can we get some even small update about what is going on with the mac side of LW 9.6.x? will we see a combined bug fix / osx 64 bit version in the upcoming weeks?

please, make us users with multi CPU machines using third party engines for rendering happy again... ;) until then there's no choice but using windows.

markus

Chilton
03-23-2009, 01:03 PM
Hi,

Remember that scene from Monty Python and The Holy Grail, where Lancelot is running up towards the wedding? Over and over? It's like that. It'll be out soon. I'm honestly not sure when soon is, though.

-Chilton

littlewaves
03-23-2009, 01:07 PM
Hi,

Remember that scene from Monty Python and The Holy Grail, where Lancelot is running up towards the wedding? Over and over? It's like that. It'll be out soon. I'm honestly not sure when soon is, though.

-Chilton

Oh great!

so when it finally gets here it'll kill us all

Chilton
03-23-2009, 01:09 PM
And everyone in the wedding party.

Darth Mole
03-23-2009, 03:58 PM
Still, one day it'll all be ours...

Chilton
03-23-2009, 04:02 PM
Yes, it will.

-Chilton

Darth Mole
03-23-2009, 04:06 PM
Gah - you're supposed to say "what, the curtains?"

Chilton
03-23-2009, 04:30 PM
This must not be my day. I have no idea how I didn't get that one...

Darth Mole
03-23-2009, 04:57 PM
It's okay. Maybe Python just isn't your native language :-)

Chilton
03-23-2009, 05:31 PM
But it was, once, long ago. Now it's just memories jogged by the occasional YouTube video. I'm not dead, I'm resting.

-Chilton

eblu
03-24-2009, 09:01 AM
no, he seems to speak C/C++/ObjC natively... but python probably isn't much of a stretch. he just has to get used to the idea of Not being organized. ;)

gpdesigner
04-18-2009, 02:00 PM
well now what . . . . ? with Chilton gone from Newtek, is 64 bit 9.6 even going to happen?

I was thinking today (rarity) that as a business owner, why would I invest time and money in a product (64 bit 9.6) that will be free as an upgrade, when I can invest in a new product (core) that will give Mac users what they want and I can make some money in the process. . .

seems to me we Mac users are in new waters . . . not that we have never been here before . . .

Anyway digressing ' who is going to lead the charge now that Chilton is gone . .?
gp

lwanmtr
04-18-2009, 03:16 PM
Chilton is gone? When did this happen?

Phil
04-18-2009, 03:31 PM
This week.

lwanmtr
04-18-2009, 03:32 PM
Yeah, just saw the thread....

I guess we can kiss 64bit goodbye on the mac, eh?

Phil
04-18-2009, 03:33 PM
There's still Dave Vrba behind the scenes. I just hope he doesn't burn out now.

lwanmtr
04-18-2009, 03:42 PM
Hopefully Dave will start up communication with us users and maybe give us a little more info on the situation with LW.

littlewaves
04-18-2009, 04:26 PM
I think if the 64-bit Cocoa version wasn't nailed to the perch it'd be pushing up the daisies

jackany
04-19-2009, 07:28 AM
Hopefully Dave will start up communication with us users...

Yeah that's my favourite wish! C o m m u n i c a t i o n... :angel:

Limbus
04-19-2009, 07:30 AM
Yes, NT really should get one of the Mac developers to communicate with the userbase. Chilton did this very well.

Cheers, Florian

3dworks
04-19-2009, 07:58 AM
usually, if there's some good news, communication is easier for a company than when bad news are waiting inside the box. hope we will hear something about mac developments from NT soon, otherwise we should assume those bad news not leaving the box...

again, current mac users and customers which are using layout and modeler now, finally deserve a solid 64 bit UB build of LW 9.6. not more, not less. so, NT, please fix those bugs, fix the SDK issues which are making us still wait for an updated fprime UB to be released and give developers the opportunity to update their plugins for cocoa 64 bit, as we will probably need to use them for at least another year - because only then CORE will probably take over! remember that usually, professional studio setups are not likely to change a pipeline for a version 1.0.

what i fear most, is that if now NT won't demonstrate a solid commitment (not only by words) to the mac platform, many here will start considering to jump to another 3d application/platform sooner or later, because developments 'on the other side of the fence' are way more mac friendly, lately.

markus

Limbus
04-19-2009, 08:02 AM
usually, if there's some good news, communication is easier for a company than when bad news are waiting inside the box.

Its much easyer with good news but much more important with bad news. :i_agree:

gpdesigner
04-19-2009, 08:25 AM
like I said,why would they want to invest man hours in producing a product which is free when they can sell us Core and make a profit?

I can't see shelling out the money for a Windows OS just to run 64bit Bootcamp when 9.6 Mac should be on the market already, but what is in it for NT?
gp

Limbus
04-19-2009, 08:44 AM
like I said,why would they want to invest man hours in producing a product which is free when they can sell us Core and make a profit?

I can't see shelling out the money for a Windows OS just to run 64bit Bootcamp when 9.6 Mac should be on the market already, but what is in it for NT?
gp

User Trust! LW Mac 64 Bit was promised long ago and now they need to deliever or they will loose the trust of alot of Mac users especially as it looks like competing Mmanufactureres take the Mac platform more serious.

Cheers, Florian

3dworks
04-19-2009, 09:03 AM
like I said,why would they want to invest man hours in producing a product which is free when they can sell us Core and make a profit?

I can't see shelling out the money for a Windows OS just to run 64bit Bootcamp when 9.6 Mac should be on the market already, but what is in it for NT?
gp

i was one of those mac users who invested into windows XP some time ago to get my work with LW actually done. i also invested money now into a hardcore membership because i'm still one of those believing into LW on mac. but certainly they won't get my money again a second time for CORE if no serious commitment to the current mac users will happen very soon.

markus

jackany
04-19-2009, 10:48 AM
...i'm still one of those believing into LW on mac. but certainly they won't get my money again a second time for CORE if no serious commitment to the current mac users will happen very soon.

Full ACK... :i_agree:

lwanmtr
04-19-2009, 03:44 PM
I hope NT is reading these threads...Dunno how much time anyone (besides Chilton) actually spent in the mac threads...

But news, really any news right now might calm the folks here down a bit..

64bit has been promised since 8.5 (i think), no sign of even a beta during the 9.x cycle, and I dont even think the hardcore users have seen even a smidge of info on 64bit for mac...Sadly all this bodes very ill for LW on mac.

Personally, I dont care about Core right now (ill join when I can afford to), but for now I'm using 9.6..and feel that getting the 9.x cycle fully realized should take priority for NewTek (which means actually delivering 64bit).

It makes sense from a marketing standpoint also...C4d and Houdini already have 64bit on Mac...Maya and (the coming mac release of) Max will no doubt be there soon too.

Lightwave, since very early (like 4.0) was the first multiplatform 3d package, I'd like to think that Newtek are still taking Mac development seriously (and not just for Core).

toby
04-19-2009, 04:38 PM
C4d and Houdini already have 64bit on Mac
Really?? I thought osx needed to support 64bit OpenGL first?

archijam
04-19-2009, 04:40 PM
I hope NT is reading these threads...Dunno how much time anyone (besides Chilton) actually spent in the mac threads..

Perhaps when the weekend's over?

lwanmtr
04-19-2009, 04:44 PM
Really?? I thought osx needed to support 64bit OpenGL first?

Only if you need the interface to be 64bit....You dont even need opengl to render in 64bits, which is what 3d apps are made for.

Captain Obvious
04-19-2009, 04:47 PM
Really?? I thought osx needed to support 64bit OpenGL first?
It does. From the proverbial horse's mouth:



In addition to the POSIX and math libraries supported in Tiger, Leopard enables developers to build complete 64-bit applications using the Cocoa, Quartz, OpenGL, and X11 GUI frameworks. You can even use 64-bit Java on capable Intel processors.

gpdesigner
04-19-2009, 04:55 PM
I'd like to think that Newtek are still taking Mac development seriously (and not just for Core).

Core is like their baby . . . . This is the chance to run mainstream along side of AutoDesk. They want to compete in the market like everyone else, and rightly so . . if they were serious about 64bit Mac . . it would be out already . . . .

Oh! Your gonna get 64Bit for MAc . . . you're just gonna get it in Core and then Pay for it like everyone else. :help:
gp

toby
04-19-2009, 06:12 PM
It does. From the proverbial horse's mouth:
Cool, so was it previously a delay for LW64, recently fixed? Just trying to get the story straight -

Only if you need the interface to be 64bit....You dont even need opengl to render in 64bits, which is what 3d apps are made for.
Yea, if they're separate programs! I don't think you can have a 64 bit app with a 32 bit gui attached? That's what I heard someone say -

lwanmtr
04-19-2009, 06:23 PM
Not a programmer, so im not sure about having 64 and 32bit in same app..

And yeah, the biggest delay was that Apple changed from Carbon to Cocoa at the last minute...Dunno how much work NT had done on a 64bit carbon build, but then they had to switch gears and learn cocoa from my understanding of the posts Chilton had.

3dworks
04-20-2009, 01:10 AM
Cool, so was it previously a delay for LW64, recently fixed? Just trying to get the story straight -

...

leopard, which supports it, is there since november 2007...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mac_OS_X

markus

archijam
04-20-2009, 01:40 AM
leopard, which supports it, is there since november 2007...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mac_OS_X

markus

Markus, :) that's a bit misleading, since Apple lead everyone down the Carbon etc. rabbithole ..

Chilton posted extensively on this topic, just search the forums.

3dworks
04-20-2009, 01:49 AM
Markus, :) that's a bit misleading, since Apple lead everyone down the Carbon etc. rabbithole ..

Chilton posted extensively on this topic, just search the forums.

yeah and there are many threads on this forum are about that topic? is there still anyone who wants to hear that story again? :D

fact is that leopard started support of graphical GUI's in 64 bit mode, that is what i wanted to point out... tiger (10.4) was 64 bit capable, but only in commandline mode, NT could only implement screamernet 64 bit at that time. btw. why did that never happen??

markus

archijam
04-20-2009, 01:55 AM
fact is that leopard started support of graphical GUI's in 64 bit mode, that is what i wanted to point out... tiger (10.4) was 64 bit capable, but only in commandline mode, NT could only implement screamernet 64 bit at that time. btw. why did that never happen??

True.

eblu
04-20-2009, 08:26 AM
re: 64Bit SN.
didn't happen because Newtek had to re-develop SN in order to get there, First. And they just didn't understand the design concepts behind the 64Bitness of tiger. They saw it as incomplete, so they stayed away from it. its sad, because it was exactly what Newtek needed, at exactly the right time.

we're still waiting for the re-implementation, BTW.

Captain Obvious
04-20-2009, 09:16 AM
Cool, so was it previously a delay for LW64, recently fixed? Just trying to get the story straight -
No, the delay is that Lightwave has been written using Carbon, the "classic" procedural OS 9-style API, which is 32-bit only. If you want a fully featured 64-bit Mac application, you have two choices: Cocoa, or splitting the processes.


Yea, if they're separate programs! I don't think you can have a 64 bit app with a 32 bit gui attached? That's what I heard someone say
Sure you can, but it's not always very straight-forward. Basically, what you can do is have separate processes. One 32-bit GUI process that sends messages to a 64-bit background (GUI-less) process, which does the grunt work and sends the results back to the front-end. This works fine for things were you don't need massive amounts of interactivity (such as offline rendering, servers, etc), but I don't think you can have 64-bit OpenGL running inside a 32-bit Carbon process.



Markus, that's a bit misleading, since Apple lead everyone down the Carbon etc. rabbithole ..

Chilton posted extensively on this topic, just search the forums.
No, they didn't. Apple have been saying since the early 2000s that Cocoa is the way to go and that Carbon will be phased out.

eblu
04-20-2009, 02:57 PM
i started waving the Cocoa Not Carbon flag, before there was even a g5 processor. I made CERTAIN, that newtek was as aware as I could make it, that just hobbling along under Carbon was going to come back and bite them in the *****. Newtek cannot point fingers at anybody else on that issue.

I understand that they were hampered by their dev cycle, that they had internal fish to fry, that there are any number of extenuating circumstances, but None of it is external. Newtek as a company Looked into the future at the advent of os X and Cocoa, decided there was no point to migrating, or even learning more than the basics, and they NEVER really took a second look. That really early decision, snow-balled into every other mac-based challenge they've had, and made every choice thereafter more and more difficult until... well, the fiasco w/ version 9. Core is a direct result of that, Newtek has decided to forgo, learning the mac os, and just let QT handle the details. Thats probably a very smart move for them. This way, they don't have to worry about things that fly under their collective radar (such as huge shifts in the the OS architecture and direction). Qt handles it. the down side... we get middle of the road Os Level support, the upside, it Works.

toby
04-20-2009, 06:38 PM
No, the delay is that Lightwave has been written using Carbon, the "classic" procedural OS 9-style API, which is 32-bit only. If you want a fully featured 64-bit Mac application, you have two choices: Cocoa, or splitting the processes.

No, they didn't. Apple have been saying since the early 2000s that Cocoa is the way to go and that Carbon will be phased out.
So they went UB, but even that's carbon. MAN that's lame.

Mac LW should at least be cheaper than the PC version if it doesn't get optimized at all, if all they do is
1. PORT
2. Fix a few bugs

lwanmtr
04-20-2009, 08:05 PM
Well, reguardless of what they *shoulda* done, we have been promised a 64bit Cocoa version, but have yet to get any timeline for delivery...If they were truly working on it, you'd think they'd have some idea how long it should take.

They have also not been forthcoming about wether this will be a free upgrade to 9.6 users or if we'll have to join hardcore.

toby
04-20-2009, 09:55 PM
They have also not been forthcoming about wether this will be a free upgrade to 9.6 users or if we'll have to join hardcore.
What makes you think they will? They've *never* charged for an update before, and this one is only bug fixes. They didn't charge for 64bit pc either.

lwanmtr
04-20-2009, 10:46 PM
We're going into a whole new cycle..anything is possible