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jaxtone
02-10-2009, 04:26 PM
So what is happening now!

How motivated will any script, plug-in creator or third party developer be of creating new stuff for the old engine in LW9.X? Flay hasnīt revealed any goodies for a while now, and up to me thatīs only a first sign! Itīs sad and understandable that developers will not put any energy in a sinking ship, since the "commercial/cred" benefit will not reach a future or survive when CORE comes!

Mostly because itīs a brandnew enginge and no content specially written for the old platform can communicate with COREīs new and better language!

I believe that all developing forces will use all their power to meet CORE instead of supporting a piece of dead meat! So from now and on until CORE is released in itīs full shape itīs gonna be a decreased curve of joy for 9.x users! No fun at all until the end of 2009 then or what?

These are my personal thoughts but I would of course be happy if someone could convince me of the opposite! Show me evidence of that someone is creating new stuff for the whole range of sections in LW9.X!

Stunt Pixels
02-10-2009, 04:43 PM
It seems pretty self evident that plugin writers will be keen to switch over the new, more open and accessible SDK. It sounds like they will have far fewer limits imposed by the SDK, and therefore be able to do cooler stuff, bring it on!

As to 9 being dead meat. Well, all the plugins that work now will continue to work. And if you, or anyone else, wants to do your own scripts/plugins for it, there's nothing stopping anyone. There will be less new development for 9, as there should be. I don't think anyone is developing plugins for LW 8 anymore...

Andyjaggy
02-10-2009, 04:51 PM
I'm not a programmer, but I wonder how hard it is to port old plugins into Core? I'm sure we will see a fair share of plugin developers making core version of their plugins, one would hope anyway.

wacom
02-10-2009, 04:54 PM
I'd be surprised if LW10 doesn't make you a plugin creator on some level without even knowing it.

That's half the point of a node based system- power to the peeps, not just those with extensive programing backgrounds.

Just its creation alone renders most likely half of the plugs on flay worthless in that you'll most likely be able to quickly re-create many of them without a line of code. For the more technically minded type it will make it easier to recreate their old plugin, and open new ways of interacting with it and other plugins as well as parts of LW.

OK, so you lost your rest on ground plug- relax.

Carm3D
02-10-2009, 05:02 PM
I was planning on buying SyFlex for Lightwave.. Not anymore!! :/

KillMe
02-10-2009, 05:03 PM
i'm more interested in seeing what the plugin developers can do with the new sdk - kinda taken for granted that plugins will cease being developed for the older platform

migh be a more abrupt cut off than normal since will likely be very littl compatibility between 9 and core where as before between 8 and 9 would only take minor changes to keep them working

i have even considered trying to learn some programming and see if i could write my own when it comes out but then reality hit and while might be able to learn programming basics by then the 3d stuff isn't like to fall into that basic category

KillMe
02-10-2009, 05:04 PM
I was planning on buying SyFlex for Lightwave.. Not anymore!! :/

think of it this way hopefully when core comes out will get full featured syflex rather than the slightly cut down version that can work with lightwave as it is now

dwburman
02-10-2009, 05:11 PM
So what is happening now!
Flay hasnīt revealed any goodies for a while now, and up to me thatīs only a first sign!

It could just mean that the guy running flay is too busy with other projects to update the site as much as he'd like. He's mentioned that at times in the past.

anim8r
02-10-2009, 05:18 PM
meh


No one cares anymore about whether a new tutorial scene file can be loaded into LW 7 or not anymore. And why should they?

It's just the way it goes.

I wish more SW developers would clean house more often than they do.


Regardless; you will be still be able to have LW9 AND LW Core residing on the same machine.

I still have LW7, LW8.2 and LW9.6 installed on my comp at home.

zapper1998
02-10-2009, 05:24 PM
I wish newtek would release the new SDK docs so we could at least start getting up to speed...

I did have about 15 diff versions of LW, I just have the recent ver 9 now 32 and 64 bits total of 6 LW's versions...

Have all the rest on cd waiting if i need to load em for something else that comes up ...




Michael

Hopper
02-10-2009, 05:25 PM
anim8er makes a good point. It's simply progress. It's the price we pay for new shiny toys. Yeah, it hurts, and yeah we get stuck in a vacuum for 6 to 8 months, but like it or not, that's just the way it is in software development. I've been a software developer for IBM and Sun Microsystems and we used to hear the same thing every time some piece of software gets EOL'd. "Hey, are you guys going to do any dev work on this or should we tell folks that they will have to wait until the new version?" Obviously you could only guess as to what the answer to that was.

Yup it's not a great situation, but you have to suck it up. 9.x has to die sometime and for NT, the sooner the better.

tischbein3
02-10-2009, 05:35 PM
So what is happening now!

How motivated will any script, plug-in creator or third party developer be of creating new stuff for the old engine in LW9.X? Flay hasnīt revealed any goodies for a while now, and up to me thatīs only a first sign! Itīs sad and understandable that developers will not put any energy in a sinking ship, since the "commercial/cred" benefit will not reach a future or survive when CORE comes!

Defintive will have some impact, but I think it will go as gradually as it happened during the 9.x circle.... renember people have to dive into the new sdk first, as it seems core will still need some time tobe production ready.

BTW: What definitive was affecting releasing some free stuff in a negative way,
was the long term open beta + NDA during the 9 circle:

Couldn't release it when it was brand hot / just finished, and the motivation wasn't very big when it was/is actually allowed... (dig out old stuff)

but that might be just my personal observation.

MacGregg
02-10-2009, 05:36 PM
I am a programmer. There is a considerable difference in the LW9 SDK and CORE just because CORE is based on C++ and Object Oriented or Class programming. If you have not done it before there is a considerable learning curve. But, once you "get it" productivity increases considerably and it should be much faster to develop equivalent Plugins. Also, Plugins for CORE have no limits since they will use the same SDK as developing the LW app itself, though this also means possibly much more serious bugs are possible too. I don't know if NT will be certifying the Plugins to be sure they don't cause serious problems or step on changes that NT is intending to make in the future. I might add some CORE code in a Plugin that would break NT added changes in some future version. There is also some danger of virus like modifications to LW since it is a direct change of the base application as I understand it now. Seems to me that there would need to be some kind of oversight by NT of code added by developers to be sure it is safe. One nice thing is that the Python code would be using the same CORE SDK so you would be able to "Mock up" a Plugin in Python and then later change it to C++ in a much easier way than we had going from LScript to the LW9 SDK.

I think that LW9.X will be around for a long time because of the existing base of LScripts and Plugins and comfort of users with a LW that that has been around for sometime... so some developers may stay with this market since they already know how to program for it

There is a considerable difference between CORE SDK and LW9 SDK and also the Qt UI Toolkit that it now uses, this is a steep learning curve and I think it will be expensive... a commercial license for Qt is about $3700 per developer!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know if a Commercial Qt license is necessary yet, since NT has not let us know what license they used... if it is a Commercial or LGPL License. There is a big clue that they are using LGPL since the LGPL license is NEW and is not available for Qt until version 4.5 at the end of March... sound familiar?

But if they are using a Commercial Qt License this will KILL small developers at ~$3700 per active developer just to License the Qt UI Toolkit!!!!!!!!!!!!

jameswillmott
02-10-2009, 06:17 PM
But if they are using a Commercial Qt License this will KILL small developers at ~$3700 per active developer just to License the Qt UI Toolkit!!!!!!!!!!!!

I seriously doubt this will be the case.

Nicolas Jordan
02-10-2009, 06:27 PM
I would assume the plugin coders won't have to work around so many things with clever trickery to get stuff to work properly so we should see swift development of all our favorite plugins if the Lightwave Core SDK is what they say it is.

ncr100
02-10-2009, 06:32 PM
I seriously doubt this will be the case.

AH :neener: Qt v4.5 is FREE! Check this: http://www.qtsoftware.com/about/licensing/nokia-adds-lgpl-to-qt-licensing-model LGPL licensing means I think free, but any changes NewTek makes to their copy of Qt itself they have to republish for all to see.

Qt's a good deal.

geothefaust
02-10-2009, 06:42 PM
Chuck or Jay (Can't remember whom) said that you don't need to learn Qt, nor do you need a Qt license.

All you need is the LW SDK. There was more information on it, but I can't find the post.



There is a considerable difference between CORE SDK and LW9 SDK and also the Qt UI Toolkit that it now uses, this is a steep learning curve and I think it will be expensive... a commercial license for Qt is about $3700 per developer!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know if a Commercial Qt license is necessary yet, since NT has not let us know what license they used... if it is a Commercial or LGPL License. There is a big clue that they are using LGPL since the LGPL license is NEW and is not available for Qt until version 4.5 at the end of March... sound familiar?

But if they are using a Commercial Qt License this will KILL small developers at ~$3700 per active developer just to License the Qt UI Toolkit!!!!!!!!!!!!

MacGregg
02-10-2009, 07:06 PM
AH :neener: Qt v4.5 is FREE! Check this: http://www.qtsoftware.com/about/licensing/nokia-adds-lgpl-to-qt-licensing-model LGPL licensing means I think free, but any changes NewTek makes to their copy of Qt itself they have to republish for all to see.

Qt's a good deal.

The LGPL license was NOT available for NT to use 2 years ago when they started work on CORE. I seriously doubt if NT is going to make LW an OPEN SOURCE application. So, the only License they could have used when they started the CORE development was the Commercial License! I hope they have migrated to the LGPL license but there are some limits in the various licenses that prevent changing to a different Qt license. I am not a lawyer so I do not know all the details. I was just checking for myself to see what it would cost, I hope you are right and NT has been able to convert their Commercial License to a LGPL License. Are you sure an LGPL License is FREE? I know a GPL License is FREE.

Commercial and LGPL Licenses are the only way to protect your source code and keeping it secret. So, with LGPL you have to follow specific rules in how you code your application. You must create a new Qt Library with your extensions added to it and it must be upgradeable to newer versions of Qt with your extensions. So, this would be true for Plugin users too under the LGPL License.

MacGregg
02-10-2009, 07:24 PM
Chuck or Jay (Can't remember whom) said that you don't need to learn Qt, nor do you need a Qt license.

All you need is the LW SDK. There was more information on it, but I can't find the post.

WOW, I hope you right on this! But, I thought I read that if you were creating a UI for a Plugin you would use the Qt Toolkit... LW SDK would have to have built their own UI Toolkit on top of Qt to insulate you from Qt, so it is possible but I would wonder if this would be Legal from Qt's point of view.

I, for instance, could build my own UI Toolkit by taking Qt and creating a layer over the top of it isolating my developers from direct contact with Qt and sell it as a new UI Toolkit for less money than Qt does.

mccabejc
02-10-2009, 07:34 PM
I am a programmer. There is a considerable difference in the LW9 SDK and CORE just because CORE is based on C++ and Object Oriented or Class programming.

So this seems to imply that converting the existing LW 9.6 functionality to the new Core system would be a huge undertaking, no? And it might even be more efficient to redo this functionality from scratch, no? Which implies to me that it will take many years before the Core is at the same level as today's LW 9.6.

And regarding plugins, it seems to me that most LW users are using plugins that were developed long ago for earlier LW versions, and developers for those are no longer doing any development. Or they are doing plugins as a side job, and may not be interested in, or have the time to, redo their stuff from scratch.

jameswillmott
02-10-2009, 07:34 PM
I, for instance, could build my own UI Toolkit by taking Qt and creating a layer over the top of it isolating my developers from direct contact with Qt and sell it as a new UI Toolkit for less money than Qt does.

I don't see how that's possible. Since you still need Qt for your toolkit to work, you could sell your toolkit, but without a Qt licence it would be unusable surely?

MacGregg
02-10-2009, 09:43 PM
I don't see how that's possible. Since you still need Qt for your toolkit to work, you could sell your toolkit, but without a Qt licence it would be unusable surely?

I am NOT advocating this... yes but you buy Qt once...it was inverse logic to say that I thought a Qt License would likely be necessary by Plugin Developers to create UI's for their Plugins. The point being that if NT had complete ly insulated Qt from Plugin developers with its own interface to avoid developers from needing a Qt License might break the Qt agreement.

jameswillmott
02-10-2009, 11:58 PM
I am NOT advocating this... yes but you buy Qt once...it was inverse logic to say that I thought a Qt License would likely be necessary by Plugin Developers to create UI's for their Plugins. The point being that if NT had complete ly insulated Qt from Plugin developers with its own interface to avoid developers from needing a Qt License might break the Qt agreement.

OK, I understand now, thanks for clarifying.

archijam
02-11-2009, 01:06 AM
No plugin updates in two weeks!

Nothing to see here.

Some threads bore forums, too.

Frank_Geppert
02-11-2009, 01:09 AM
I am a programmer. ... I don't know if NT will be certifying the Plugins to be sure they don't cause serious problems or step on changes that NT is intending to make in the future. I might add some CORE code in a Plugin that would break NT added changes in some future version. There is also some danger of virus like modifications to LW since it is a direct change of the base application as I understand it now.

As you wrote yourself, you dont get the source code, you get an SDK. So you have to create your own add-on, probably a DLL, an additional library, an external file. It might cause trouble once it is called but it cannot infect the Core code.

jaxtone
02-11-2009, 01:33 AM
Yeah, I would be very happy indeed if that feature comes with CORE as well! :D


I'd be surprised if LW10 doesn't make you a plugin creator on some level without even knowing it.

ncr100
02-11-2009, 02:01 AM
They said nothing about backwards compatibility so I think the plugins will need to be recompiled against the new SDK. But then they'll be compatible across all platforms because of the new mach-o bundle scheme.

Lightwolf
02-11-2009, 02:14 AM
So what is happening now!

How motivated will any script, plug-in creator or third party developer be of creating new stuff for the old engine in LW9.X? Flay hasnīt revealed any goodies for a while now, and up to me thatīs only a first sign!
If Flay reveals nothing now then it's an indication that 3-6 months ago nobody started developing something new to release now. This stuff takes time.

We've got something that will be released soon (in the final beta stages) - and as long as there is no CORE SDK we might as well keep supporting 9.x

The other question of course would be how willing customers are to purchase plugins now that CORE (with a complete breakage of plugins) is on the horizon.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
02-11-2009, 02:18 AM
But then they'll be compatible across all platforms because of the new mach-o bundle scheme.
Only if you explicitly compile on all thos platforms as well... it's neither free nor automatic.

Shipping (bundles) isn't production (compiling). Bundles only make shipping/distribution easier.

Cheers,
Mike

Frank_Geppert
02-11-2009, 02:20 AM
They said nothing about backwards compatibility so I think the plugins will need to be recompiled against the new SDK. But then they'll be compatible across all platforms because of the new mach-o bundle scheme.

You cannot just recompile it against a new SDK. The new SDK and the way how to program will change for sure. Otherwise there is no need for a new Core. It is a new software design.
But unfortunately we have no details to say this with more certainty.

Limbus
02-11-2009, 02:25 AM
The other question of course would be how willing customers are to purchase plugins now that CORE (with a complete breakage of plugins) is on the horizon.

If I need something now I will buy it. If I just want to have something I might wait.

But sometimes its hard to distinguish between "need" and "want" ;-)

Cheers, Florian

pixelranger
02-11-2009, 02:47 AM
as many have allready said, this is part of the progress of making newer, better software. No problem at all. The benefits of the new architecture aren't going to make you miss anything from the old LW, anyway.
And who complains about nobody making new plugins for Softimage 3.5, Alias Power animator or 3d studio (dos) anyhow? No one.
If this was an issue it would mean no more new generations of software, we would all be sitting in win 95 rotating cubes in Videoscape 3d...
There's a reason new software iterations are called "Next Gen". And it generally is a good thing!

Chrizto
02-11-2009, 02:56 AM
But if they are using a Commercial Qt License this will KILL small developers at ~$3700 per active developer just to License the Qt UI Toolkit!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because the framework is written in commercial QT, (off course it is, ore the program would have to be open source) doesn't mean that you have to use commercial QT to write plugins.
The most common would probably be to write plugins in Python, and use the GUI API's to call into Core.
Performance would not be much limited, as the receivers are c++ methods.

Don't need no commercial license to do that. No QT either, besides, the plugins would be multi platform, out of the box.

Also, people are asking why a 64-bit version for the Mac isn't out yet. Well, the 64-bit commercial QT for Cocoa isn't tested thoroughly, but soon it will be...

Red_Oddity
02-11-2009, 03:18 AM
I never understand why most of the folks on this board don't just search the web first before starting these core conspiracy theories.

http://www.qtsoftware.com/downloads

As you can see, both LPGL version, aswell as the commercial version contain the tools needed to create interfaces (the Qt GUI designer for example), some of the things you won't get with the LGLP version is Visual Studio integration to create GUIs and the ability to create closed source software.

Lightwolf
02-11-2009, 03:23 AM
I never understand why most of the folks on this board don't just search the web first before starting these core conspiracy theories.

http://www.qtsoftware.com/downloads

As you can see, both LPGL version, aswell as the commercial version contain the tools needed to create interfaces (the Qt GUI designer for example), some of the things you won't get with the LGLP version is Visual Studio integration to create GUIs and the ability to create closed source software.
That link will be obsolete with the LGPL version though. Open Source on that page refers to the GPL version, which is available now.
Especially the bullet:
Develop proprietary/closed source applications
Will be possible with the LGPL (as opposed to the current GPLed one).

However, NT probably made the decision to use QT before the LGPL announcement, and I suppose they're abstracting QT away from the SDK. Which means you won't need a QT license to develop for CORE anyhow.

Cheers,
Mike

jaxtone
02-11-2009, 03:28 AM
It seems pretty self evident that plugin writers will be keen to switch over the new, more open and accessible SDK. It sounds like they will have far fewer limits imposed by the SDK, and therefore be able to do cooler stuff, bring it on! As to 9 being dead meat. Well, all the plugins that work now will continue to work. And if you, or anyone else, wants to do your own scripts/plugins for it, there's nothing stopping anyone. There will be less new development for 9, as there should be. I don't think anyone is developing plugins for LW 8 anymore...

Well, I suppose youīre right in one thing, of course there arenīt any plugin devolpers that have an interest in putting LW 8 as their main target nowadays!

But I donīt believe that itīs relevant to compare this situation with any earlier occasion in Lightwaveīs history! This is a completely new scenery! You may correct me if I am wrong here but the gap between CORE and LW9 isnīt just about scripting, itīs has also a very negative impact of time! The extensive re-writing of the engine hopefully change to the better! But now it actually limits the rules of what can and will be done with the software that we are stuck with for 9-12 months! My negative aspect of this scenario was that every professional developer or amateur hobbyist with some interest in a either a commercial or credit bonus will drop out for at least 9 months! The positive aspect is still of course that the new software hopefully will be better than ever!


I wish newtek would release the new SDK docs so we could at least start getting up to speed... Michael

Good intention!


anim8er makes a good point. It's simply progress. It's the price we pay for new shiny toys. Yeah, it hurts, and yeah we get stuck in a vacuum for 6 to 8 months, but like it or not, that's just the way it is in software development. I've been a software developer for IBM and Sun Microsystems and we used to hear the same thing every time some piece of software gets EOL'd. "Hey, are you guys going to do any dev work on this or should we tell folks that they will have to wait until the new version?" Obviously you could only guess as to what the answer to that was. Yup it's not a great situation, but you have to suck it up. 9.x has to die sometime and for NT, the sooner the better.

I agree and definitely hope the future is gonna be better! There aint no disagreements between us at that point, but I have to ask you this!

If your past career would have included a ground shaking and totally new design of a software that ten-thousands of people used daily in their profession! Letīs say you did this during two years without telling about the upcoming and un-developed gap between the accessable and the secret upcoming soft! Donīt you see that at least some users feels like kids the night before a cancelled boxing day that unfortunally is delayed until next X-mas! :D


Defintive will have some impact, but I think it will go as gradually as it happened during the 9.x circle.... renember people have to dive into the new sdk first, as it seems core will still need some time tobe production ready. BTW: What definitive was affecting releasing some free stuff in a negative way, was the long term open beta + NDA during the 9 circle: Couldn't release it when it was brand hot/just finished, and the motivation wasn't very big when it was/is actually allowed... (dig out old stuff) but that might be just my personal observation.

I think you strike the truth from many angles pretty well here! What I cannot understand is that these guys at NT handled to work with two softwares at the same time. How fun could it have been to work with 9.X at all when they all knew it had to be sacked in the end anyway? I must say I adore their effort and understand they must have had a tough time!


I am a programmer. There is a considerable difference in the LW9 SDK and CORE just because CORE is based on C++ and Object Oriented or Class programming. If you have not done it before there is a considerable learning curve. But, once you "get it" productivity increases considerably and it should be much faster to develop equivalent Plugins. Also, Plugins for CORE have no limits since they will use the same SDK as developing the LW app itself, though this also means possibly much more serious bugs are possible too.

One shall never say never, but I canīt hardly see me as a programmer, but thanks for your inputs! At least I can understand what you mean in the aspect of positive values in CORE!


I think that LW9.X will be around for a long time because of the existing base of LScripts and Plugins and comfort of users with a LW that that has been around for sometime... so some developers may stay with this market since they already know how to program for it...

Yeah it might at least be around for 9-12 non developed months! :D


So this seems to imply that converting the existing LW 9.6 functionality to the new Core system would be a huge undertaking, no? And it might even be more efficient to redo this functionality from scratch, no? Which implies to me that it will take many years before the Core is at the same level as today's LW 9.6.

And regarding plugins, it seems to me that most LW users are using plugins that were developed long ago for earlier LW versions, and developers for those are no longer doing any development. Or they are doing plugins as a side job, and may not be interested in, or have the time to, redo their stuff from scratch.

Now you hit the button! I have sometimes wondered about why some brilliant plugins never went to version 2 or 3 or whatever! Itīs now obvious that these guys probably couldnīt make a living on just writing freeware plugins! (Damn! I always thought that programmers, script phantoms and coders were millionaires and lived their filthy rich lifes at Barbados or something!) :hey:

jaxtone
02-11-2009, 03:35 AM
Whats the fuzz about? If you canīt wait for two weeks without complaining, inhale some anaesthetic and breath in a calm way!

:D


No plugin updates in two weeks! Nothing to see here. Some threads bore forums, too.

jaxtone
02-11-2009, 03:54 AM
Maybe it looked like I assumed that a visit at Flayīs would answer some questions and hidden truths! This was however never my intention, I just meant that past visits at Flay "always" revealed more new stuff than lately! Of course this can have other causes than the fact that CORE is the future for developers, but if I had the knowledge of writing plugs and scripts I wouldnīt either have wasted energy on LW9!

I wonder how NT argued internally for these 9-12 months in limbo for LW9!


If Flay reveals nothing now then it's an indication that 3-6 months ago nobody started developing something new to release now. This stuff takes time.

We've got something that will be released soon (in the final beta stages) - and as long as there is no CORE SDK we might as well keep supporting 9.x

The other question of course would be how willing customers are to purchase plugins now that CORE (with a complete breakage of plugins) is on the horizon.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
02-11-2009, 03:56 AM
I just meant that past visits at Flay "always" revealed more new stuff than lately!
Which isn't true though. There've always been dry spells with Flay having nothing more than one old announcement on the front page.

Cheers,
Mike

Chrizto
02-11-2009, 03:57 AM
I never understand why most of the folks on this board don't just search the web first before starting these core conspiracy theories.

http://www.qtsoftware.com/downloads

As you can see, both LPGL version, aswell as the commercial version contain the tools needed to create interfaces (the Qt GUI designer for example), some of the things you won't get with the LGLP version is Visual Studio integration to create GUIs and the ability to create closed source software.

But you can't use the LGPL to produce commercial plugins without distributing your source code.

Chrizto
02-11-2009, 03:59 AM
Whats the fuzz about? If you canīt wait for two weeks without complaining, inhale some anaesthetic and breath in a calm way!

:D
Totally agree!
:agree:

Lightwolf
02-11-2009, 04:00 AM
But you can't use the LGPL to produce commercial plugins without distributing your source code.
Yes you can, that's what the LGPL has been designed for. The page doesn't refer to the LGPL but to the GPL version though.

Cheers,
Mike

jaxtone
02-11-2009, 05:00 AM
Maybe you agree if I swap "always" to "mostly"? :)

Letīs see what happens after this "dry spell"! Either there will be loads of exciting plugs and third party offers for LW9 or not! I guess not!


Which isn't true though. There've always been dry spells with Flay having nothing more than one old announcement on the front page.

Cheers,
Mike

jaxtone
02-11-2009, 05:02 AM
Thatīs just ingenious! Me like it! :)


If I need something now I will buy it. If I just
want to have something I might wait. But sometimes its hard to distinguish between "need" and "want" ;-)

Cheers, Florian

Sensei
02-11-2009, 05:03 AM
Letīs see what happens after this "dry spell"! Either there will be loads of exciting plugs and third party offers for LW9 or not! I guess not!

I have here dozen new plug-ins for LW9 on my disk.. ;)

Red_Oddity
02-11-2009, 06:35 AM
I usually use the LWPluginDB site, much more up to date on plugins i believe.

art
02-11-2009, 07:46 AM
...and its search feature is better. Eventually we will see now core plugins appearing on both flay and lwplugindb.

wacom
02-11-2009, 12:52 PM
I just wanted to post this, not so much as an advertisement for XSI and ICE, but as an example of what we most likely can expect in the future with CORE and it's node system:

http://vimeo.com/album/54557/page:1

This is a free set of nodes (like plugins with user ports in a sense) to create fluid dynamics in XSI. AFAIK, this is being made by just two people- one of which works just a few blocks away from me. Granted, Thiago is an evil genius in that he's also a great artist and animator, but still- if this is near the pinnacle of what to expect then how can we be in for a rocky plugin future with CORE?

XSI 7 didn't come out that long ago, and you have to work in C (not C++) to make nodes. I think the ball for plugins in core will get rolling much faster than people think esp. if NewTek supplies us with a good, highly optimized, set of basic nodes to make compounds with.

Again- this is not an advertisement for XSI (I hate AD), but just a glimpse of another programs development that might in some ways echo CORE's.

I actually think CORE might leap frog XSI in this area, since it is being built from the ground up on nodes etc and the nodes might be able to use python scripting AND C++.

I like node based plugins because they blur the line between a plugin and an integral part of the program- unlike "plugins" in MAX and LW currently, and can have a life well beyond what the original creator had envisioned.

Andyjaggy
02-11-2009, 01:04 PM
That looks awesome.

dballesg
02-11-2009, 01:18 PM
Wacom, if you wanted to depress me you managed it! :)

I knew that SPH Fluid solver, but I didn't saw that video before.

If CORE does anything like that i am gonna have a heart attack and therefore I wouldn't be able to use it! :devil:

David

*Pete*
02-11-2009, 01:21 PM
If Flay reveals nothing now then it's an indication that 3-6 months ago nobody started developing something new to release now. This stuff takes time.


what??...i thought programmers were a hardworking bunch of people.

a half year?...pfft, the youth of today, nothing like in the old times where the programmers were able to code a whole game in a week, or even in mere hours.

Lightwolf
02-11-2009, 01:30 PM
a half year?...pfft, the youth of today, nothing like in the old times where the programmers were able to code a whole game in a week, or even in mere hours.
Haha, well, 32KB were a lot easier to fill than 12 GB ;)

Cheers,
Mike

jaxtone
02-11-2009, 01:34 PM
Hey!

Your genious capabilities are actually a positive hope for us 9.6:ers for the next 9-12 months then!

Because your great solutions I hope you adapt to the new CORE as well! I believe many Lightwaverīs would appreciate that!

P.S. Have you never thought of creating a really great liquid plugin for Ligthwave! I wonder why so few have made this possible. I know that Pawel Ola started up a liquid thingie about 5 years ago. But when I asked him he said it was just a minor idea that he didnīt have time to evaluate at that moment. Itīs still at his webpage and it hurts each time I watch it!

So tell me now Mr. Truart with all your knowledge! Is it a huge problem finding a way to make things float and splash in the Lightwave application wether itīs Core or the old engine?




I have here dozen new plug-ins for LW9 on my disk.. ;)

Sensei
02-11-2009, 01:37 PM
C'mon LightWolf, you can't fill 12 GB faster than before???
I bet I can fill it faster 12 GB of memory with long *ptr; for( long long i = 0; i < 0x30000000; i++ ) ptr[ i ] = 0x0; than ever before :D

jaxtone
02-11-2009, 01:43 PM
I really like these guys effort to come up with something that is faster than RF and can handle large amounts of data!

Thankīs for the link and your great inputs!


I just wanted to post this, not so much as an advertisement for XSI and ICE, but as an example of what we most likely can expect in the future with CORE and it's node system:

http://vimeo.com/album/54557/page:1

This is a free set of nodes (like plugins with user ports in a sense) to create fluid dynamics in XSI. AFAIK, this is being made by just two people- one of which works just a few blocks away from me. Granted, Thiago is an evil genius in that he's also a great artist and animator, but still- if this is near the pinnacle of what to expect then how can we be in for a rocky plugin future with CORE?

XSI 7 didn't come out that long ago, and you have to work in C (not C++) to make nodes. I think the ball for plugins in core will get rolling much faster than people think esp. if NewTek supplies us with a good, highly optimized, set of basic nodes to make compounds with.

Again- this is not an advertisement for XSI (I hate AD), but just a glimpse of another programs development that might in some ways echo CORE's.

I actually think CORE might leap frog XSI in this area, since it is being built from the ground up on nodes etc and the nodes might be able to use python scripting AND C++.

I like node based plugins because they blur the line between a plugin and an integral part of the program- unlike "plugins" in MAX and LW currently, and can have a life well beyond what the original creator had envisioned.

Sensei
02-11-2009, 01:49 PM
But when I asked him he said it was just a minor idea that he didnīt have time to evaluate at that moment. Itīs still at his webpage and it hurts each time I watch it!

Which one Pawel's video you have in mind?

There will be TrueVoxels volumetric plugin for LW v9.x and LWX soon..
Because I have enough of playing with slow rendering of HyperVoxels in TrueHair Preview (cause it doesn't have any KD-Tree/Octree)...

wacom
02-11-2009, 02:05 PM
I see no reason it couldn't be a solution for CORE. They used publicly open white papers written by a student of prof in computer science for CG. Not that I've used it or ever coded more than a calender in my life, but from everything said I can't see it not being able to do this since there a lot of talented people using LW.

The thing is it's just a tool- the developer, NT, is giving us better and easier to use tools to make more powerful tools in the future. IMHO it's the only way 3D can advance and keep costs down and innovation up.

This isn't giving us a "hammer"- it's giving us the tools and raw materials to make the hammer, then horse saw, then saw, then foundry, then house, then car, then jet, then rocket ship etc. Materials build tools and tools build more specialized and powerful tools.

This is instead of the current line of thinking- beg the developer and plugin makers to death to make a rocket ship- oh and while they're at it include cup holders and a simple control scheme!

It's UGC for the 3D world!:)


Wacom, if you wanted to depress me you managed it! :)

I knew that SPH Fluid solver, but I didn't saw that video before.

If CORE does anything like that i am gonna have a heart attack and therefore I wouldn't be able to use it! :devil:

David

DuneBoy
02-11-2009, 10:39 PM
However, NT probably made the decision to use QT before the LGPL announcement, and I suppose they're abstracting QT away from the SDK. Which means you won't need a QT license to develop for CORE anyhow

I am troubled at the thought that NewTek had chosen to use Qt knowing that plugin developers would be faced with having to either release their source code under GPL, buy a Commercial Qt license or create a non-Qt interface. Unless NewTek only adopted Qt AFTER Nokia added LGPL for the Qt 4.5 release.

I doubt that the SDK abstracts Qt. If it did then this statement from the CORE Tech FAQ (http://www.newtek.com/core/techfaq.php) wouldn't make sense (listed under Flexibility):

For user interface, the popular Qt toolkit from TrollTech/Nokia was chosen. This toolkit is powerful, flexible, and there is a large talent pool of users with experience within the toolkit. This gives NewTek access to a talent pool with previously-existing experience. Less training upfront enables potential hires to become more productive more quickly. Also, with thousands of users, this toolkit is more robust than anything that we could have developed in-house at NewTek. In addition, it is available now for development;

That seems to imply that we'll be using Qt directly, but then again maybe not since it seems to be talking about NewTek programmers. I don't know, I'm so confused. :confused:

As for CORE killing 9.x plugin development. LW 9 is a shipping product with a pretty good size user base. And with the increase in cost, I'm sure they'll be plenty of people sticking with 9.x either indefinitely or until CORE has finished its growing pains.

I'll still be writing plugins for 9.x for the foreseeable future. But I will enjoy using the new SDK when it makes sense to do so.

P.S. Once CORE goes gold I'll update the LWPluginDB to handle CORE plugins.

jameswillmott
02-11-2009, 10:45 PM
That seems to imply that we'll be using Qt directly, but then again maybe not since it seems to be talking about NewTek programmers. I don't know, I'm so confused. :confused:


It's vague, it does seem to suggest, to me, that it is referring to NT developers, not plugin developers as such, but the benefits of a robust UI toolkit can be passed on to plugin developers even if Qt is abstracted away.

Hopper
02-12-2009, 12:08 AM
If your past career would have included a ground shaking and totally new design of a software that ten-thousands of people used daily in their profession! Letīs say you did this during two years without telling about the upcoming and un-developed gap between the accessable and the secret upcoming soft! Donīt you see that at least some users feels like kids the night before a cancelled boxing day that unfortunally is delayed until next X-mas!
Absolutely.

And I've been there. We used to have a piece of management software called (of all things) 'Wizard'. While we were supporting the software, we were developing a revolutionary management tool called "TME 10". I'm sure some of the IT people around here have heard of it. Our users were certainly in the tens of thousands of users.

It was very painful for us as developers and the users, but the payoff in the end for both was enormous. Our software worked so well, that IBM bought us outright and now IBM/Tivoli TME10 is one of the biggest enterprise management software suites on the market today.

jaxtone
02-12-2009, 01:11 AM
Here is a link to Pawel Olaīs Wave Generator that actually looked ok by then. It was a while ago so, however I havenīt seen many other really nice water plugs for LW since then if we do not count in killer expensive solutions.

There are two sweet little film clips to watch as well. Maybe not the most fancy splashes but at least a try:

http://www.polas.net/plugins/wave.php



Which one Pawel's video you have in mind?

There will be TrueVoxels volumetric plugin for LW v9.x and LWX soon..
Because I have enough of playing with slow rendering of HyperVoxels in TrueHair Preview (cause it doesn't have any KD-Tree/Octree)...

jaxtone
02-12-2009, 01:26 AM
Thereīs no doubt that the new solutionīs gonna give us all more freedom and help us to new and create better content! But to me it more and more sounds like the gap between 9.6 and CORE just seems to be a pretty weak plan B with a leak!

All of us that went into the cave of OB at different levels of skills and interest, or invested in that update will not have especially much payback if the new engine are beyond 9.6. I shall not call it a total waste of time but now it seems more like LW9.6 were (last resort or gangplank) to the future! I donīt know if I am right here but have to ask these questions!

What engine or script parts of LW 9.6 will be transformed into CORE?

Exactly in which detailed way will CORE benefit from all the that was put into LW9.6 by developers, beta testers and users?


Absolutely.

And I've been there. We used to have a piece of management software called (of all things) 'Wizard'. While we were supporting the software, we were developing a revolutionary management tool called "TME 10". I'm sure some of the IT people around here have heard of it. Our users were certainly in the tens of thousands of users.

It was very painful for us as developers and the users, but the payoff in the end for both was enormous. Our software worked so well, that IBM bought us outright and now IBM/Tivoli TME10 is one of the biggest enterprise management software suites on the market today.

Sensei
02-12-2009, 01:55 AM
Here is a link to Pawel Olaīs Wave Generator that actually looked ok by then. It was a while ago so, however I havenīt seen many other really nice water plugs for LW since then if we do not count in killer expensive solutions.


I saw them long time ago - it's displacement plug-in... In other words - water is highly sub-divided mesh, and when something hits it, mesh points are transformed..
I noticed that water flying in air is not casting shadows, might be sign that it's pixel filter added effect at the end..
So it's like Pawel said, just toy for play for developer.. :)

That is mine the first plug-in written for LightWave,
Waves displacement plugin https://secure.reg.net/Product.asp?ID=12327 (click Screen-shot on right)
It's now in TrueArt's Modeling Pack Legacy plug-ins.
The difference between mine and Pawel's solution was that in mine you can set everything like you want, using nulls. And Pawel's one is probably automatically finding collisions.

Dodgy
02-12-2009, 04:20 AM
NT have provided the best possible basis for a new program possible. It absolutely needed doing, look at XSI, that's going nodal. NT is in the best position here as it's doing this from the ground up, rather than having to wedge it into old code like they were doing with the 8-9 series. Making it modular means each part can be tested and made bug free in turn, unlike the hodge podge of code that 9.6 probably is. Using QT and python means they don't have to reinvent the wheel, and it's code that's already battle hardened, saving them time to develop other other areas. I for one am sooooo excited they're doing this, I can't wait to say goodbye to lscript, and dig into python, it's going to make things a lot easier. You're probably going to see the kind of plugin explosion we got when the Node DK was introduced for 9. That's not counting the node compounds users are going to come up with without having to program. This approach minimises the number of bugs. They would only make more bugs with other methods, either of patching 9 up, or making core with a different architecture.

Nemoid
02-12-2009, 04:24 AM
I saw them long time ago - it's displacement plug-in... In other words - water is highly sub-divided mesh, and when something hits it, mesh points are transformed..
I noticed that water flying in air is not casting shadows, might be sign that it's pixel filter added effect at the end..
So it's like Pawel said, just toy for play for developer.. :)

That is mine the first plug-in written for LightWave,
Waves displacement plugin https://secure.reg.net/Product.asp?ID=12327 (click Screen-shot on right)
It's now in TrueArt's Modeling Pack Legacy plug-ins.
The difference between mine and Pawel's solution was that in mine you can set everything like you want, using nulls. And Pawel's one is probably automatically finding collisions.

man i could only imagine the wonders you could do writing plugins with CORE new SDK ! :thumbsup:

Myagi
02-12-2009, 09:35 AM
Our software worked so well, that IBM bought us outright and now IBM/Tivoli TME10 is one of the biggest enterprise management software suites on the market today.

so what you're saying is Core will be so awesome that AD will buy them. For the love of god NT, cancel Core, cancel! ;)

jaxtone
02-12-2009, 10:42 AM
Now you reached the edge of danger! Better let the rest of wavers know as well :)


so what you're saying is Core will be so awesome that AD will buy them. For the love of god NT, cancel Core, cancel! ;)

jaxtone
02-12-2009, 10:49 AM
Thanks for the link! I admit the Ola plug is more like a toy and it might be a fact that the splashes are fake. As I remember I used this technique somewhere in the past to create these displacements rings as well!

But tell me this! How come that no one in the Lightwave plugin develope sphere ever created a single Liquid plugin worth its name?



I saw them long time ago - it's displacement plug-in... In other words - water is highly sub-divided mesh, and when something hits it, mesh points are transformed..
I noticed that water flying in air is not casting shadows, might be sign that it's pixel filter added effect at the end..
So it's like Pawel said, just toy for play for developer.. :)

That is mine the first plug-in written for LightWave,
Waves displacement plugin https://secure.reg.net/Product.asp?ID=12327 (click Screen-shot on right)
It's now in TrueArt's Modeling Pack Legacy plug-ins.
The difference between mine and Pawel's solution was that in mine you can set everything like you want, using nulls. And Pawel's one is probably automatically finding collisions.

Sensei
02-12-2009, 11:39 AM
Why are you calling him Ola? His first name is Pawel, which is just English Paul, surname Olas (s is essential part of surname, not suffix like 's -s in English). Ola is Polish female first name (short cut from Alexandre).

jaxtone
02-13-2009, 06:40 AM
I call him Ola because I thought that was his last name! Didnīt know that this serious mistake almost made him sound as a female! :D

Beware of them sīssssssssss.... said the lisping snake! :dance:

Itīs always good to learn something new... so thanks for the hint! This will not happen again hopefully!

Maybe this hasnīt much to do with the threads main issue but since you gave me a short Polish language and name history lesson I tell you this... The amount of Polish people I īve learnt to know in Sweden confuses me. Either theyīve set a really hard focus on money and business or on their own excellence! Thatīs so tragical in the long run because they never seems to relax and enjoy life as other etnicities I learnt to know!

A while ago I spoke to a reliable Polish friend about it and he told me it had something to do with a pretty rough historical background with starving connected to competition from past centuries. I can dig this but when it comes to the vulgar image of excellence I believe it has more to do with hard pressure from parents that itīs of dead importance that the kids succeed in school and career, no matter what the kids think themselfes. Maybe thatīs why I met so many high educated and technically brilliant polish musicians with problems to express their inner feelings in the musical expression.

P.S. I actually always thought that the Latvians were almost the only Europeans that always had an "S" at the end of their family names!


Why are you calling him Ola? His first name is Pawel, which is just English Paul, surname Olas (s is essential part of surname, not suffix like 's -s in English). Ola is Polish female first name (short cut from Alexandre).

Sensei
02-13-2009, 07:26 AM
Itīs always good to learn something new, but to be honest Poland has never been of any interest to me since the official postwar image has been dull and grey...

When Sweden arrived Poland 350 years ago they were calling our country "milk and honey flowing country" :D

Did you read "Trilogy" Henryk Sienkiewicz's (it's about Sweden's flooding Poland)? One of my favorite part is when Polish nobility and peasants were informed that Sweden king is close to them and get everyone who was at hand and prepared ambush, and killed all king's guards, and almost killed king himself (pity that he run away alone (it's good in that times to have good horse :D), it would finish war immediately), lucky guy :D peasants who were fighting in this ambush were nominated to nobility).. He got Noble price in literature. You probably saw Hollywood movie "Quo Vadis", based on his novel.


Either theyīve set a really hard focus on money and business or on their own excellence! Thatīs so tragical in the long run because they never seems to relax and enjoy life as other etnicities I learnt to know!

Is it not why emigrants are going for 1-2 years to foreign country.. Earn as much as possible and go back to home.. ?



A while ago I spoke to a reliable Polish friend about it and he told me it had something to do with a pretty rough historical background with starving connected to competition from past centuries. I can dig this but when it comes to the vulgar image of excellence I believe it has more to do with hard pressure from parents that itīs of dead importance that the kids succeed in school and career, no matter what the kids think themselfes.

That's probably everywhere in top class rich people, going to the best schools, with many off-school activities like dance, piano, vocal etc.

If you want more normal people search in middle and lower classes.. ;)



P.S. I actually always thought that the Latvians were almost the only Europeans that always had an "S" at the end of their family names!

In Polish I don't know about any rule saying that you can't have any letter at beginning or end of surname. But there is such in first name: female names are ending with "a", with just one exception, Kuba (from Jakub=Jacob in other languages). So it's pretty easy to write software that basing on name is telling sex, as long as name is true (without keeping database).

*Pete*
02-13-2009, 07:26 AM
Ola is Polish female first name (short cut from Alexandre).

Ola is the most used Norwegian male name :D

thanks for telling me that, i know a few Ola's who i will tell about the feminity of the name ;)

*Pete*
02-13-2009, 07:37 AM
One of my favorite part is when Polish nobility and peasants were informed that Sweden king is close to them and get everyone who was at hand and prepared ambush, and killed all king's guards, and almost killed king himself

He did die eventually, got shot while besieging a fortress in Norway.

but he was a tough one, a master strategist and tactician..Sweden got attacked by 3 strong nations the same time, Denmark, Poland and Russia had decided to end the Swedish supremacy once and for all.

The Swedish king simply marched his troops over the ice in the sea between Denmark and Sweden and forced the Danes into a humiliating surrender by taking them completely off guard..then he turned onto the baltic states and Poland, did the same there, perhaps if he had not been so succesfull, Sweden might have been a regional superpower even to this day.

but blinded by his success he refused the Russian offer of compensation and ceasefire and chaced Peter the great and his army over four years, deeper and deeper into Russia, russians adopting into the scorched earth tactic.

it all ended in Poltava where 40.000 starved Swedes attacked 120.000 wellfed and fortified Russians....even then, he did have a small chance to win, but it never went his way at the critical moment.

he lost his army, after that i think the only major battle was in Norway where he died and since then Sweden has remained in peace with its neighbours...the longest peace in world history.

much can be said about Karl 12:th, but he was a military genious of his time.

Sensei
02-13-2009, 07:47 AM
but blinded by his success he refused the Russian offer of compensation and ceasefire and chaced Peter the great and his army over four years, deeper and deeper into Russia, russians adopting into the scorched earth tactic.

Hehe.. It seems that Russians don't know any other tactic than "scorched earth".. :) They used it with Napoleon, with Hitler etc, and always worked without loosing Capital City.. In the all history the only Polish took Moscov and Kreml and occupied it for years (Russia the Independence Day holiday, to this moment after so many centuries, is about getting ride of Polish soldiers from Moscov)..

pazur
02-13-2009, 03:55 PM
A bit late to discussion but I'd like to add my thoughts.
I think LW9.6 has at least 2 years of life ahead. Sure, there's a lot of excitement about CORE right now and it looks like a perfect future which it'll probably eventually be.
However, I just can't believe in this ideal picture of completely new, production ready software in Q4 this year. It simply feels unreal to me, nothing that I saw in 3d history makes me think it'll go that smooth.
It all looks so good now but i think that once a couple of first builds are out, we see where CORE really is and what is the real pace of progress and how much work is left to be done - then we will be able to judge more precisely on when 9.6 becomes obsolete. And I don't think it'll be Q4 this year.

Nicolas Jordan
02-13-2009, 04:05 PM
A bit late to discussion but I'd like to add my thoughts.
I think LW9.6 has at least 2 years of life ahead. Sure, there's a lot of excitement about CORE right now and it looks like a perfect future which it'll probably eventually be.
However, I just can't believe in this ideal picture of completely new, production ready software in Q4 this year. It simply feels unreal to me, nothing that I saw in 3d history makes me think it'll go that smooth.
It all looks so good now but i think that once a couple of first builds are out, we see where CORE really is and what is the real pace of progress and how much work is left to be done - then we will be able to judge more precisely on when 9.6 becomes obsolete. And I don't think it'll be Q4 this year.

They even say in the Hardcore membership benefits that there will be further updates to the 9.x cycle available for members. I think that makes it clear that they expect a slow transition between the new product line and the old one as the new one gets more stable and production tested.

jaxtone
02-14-2009, 12:13 PM
I must say that even if the subject of this thread kind of flipped away to planet Fuzz or something itīs so damn funny to learn more about European Countrieīs history and sexual ratingīs of names at the same time! :thumbsup:


Ola is the most used Norwegian male name :D

thanks for telling me that, i know a few Ola's who i will tell about the feminity of the name ;)

GandB
02-14-2009, 12:15 PM
They even say in the Hardcore membership benefits that there will be further updates to the 9.x cycle available for members.
That one has still got me stumped...doea that mean that non-HC members won't have these updates to v9? And if so; then why list it as a benefit to having a HC Membership?

jaxtone
02-14-2009, 12:20 PM
By looking at the past history sadly enough I admit that your conclusion is 100% right here! :agree:

The negative aspect is that itīs hard to believe that the focus of NTīs developerīs will be set on 9.6 issues at all! If I am wrong they shall have all the creds in the world for a great "plan B"!


They even say in the Hardcore membership benefits that there will be further updates to the 9.x cycle available for members. I think that makes it clear that they expect a slow transition between the new product line and the old one as the new one gets more stable and production tested.

jaxtone
02-14-2009, 12:25 PM
Earlier I always thought that many of the misunderstandings between me and NT was because of that I am a European citizen. That it was more of a language problem than anything else!

But by reading the latest weeks threads thereīs actually a lot of unclear statements that have lead to a lot of unanswered questions!

So Iīd rather think that this is a little bit of a classic NT trauma! Their intentions are probably good but the information isnīt clear enough!


That one has still got me stumped...doea that mean that non-HC members won't have these updates to v9? And if so; then why list it as a benefit to having a HC Membership?