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Gar
02-10-2009, 01:49 PM
Hello,

I have been a lightwave user since version 1 on the amiga, in a video toaster. I have always been pleased with Newtek and Lightwave.

I am less than plesaed with the lack of clear answers or information on Core.

Here is what i would like to know, without going through the 500 some odd posts. Or Newtek to put up a sticky with the details.

1. If i don't upgrade to core from 9.6, will there still be a upgrade path to the next version after? ( the odd time i have missed some upgrades do to money ) but have always managed to get the next one.

2. I have not seen enough of CORE, how about some screen shots at least to see the interface and what we can expect from it.

3. Plugins and scenes. Will we be able to load our 9.6 scenes into core? What will plugin compatability be? Either newtek or thirdparty?


These are some questions i think would be fair to have answered by NEWTEK...Not speculation. Its hard these days to put up $395, when you haven't been told all that much, or shown. The video release was very dissapointing, and not what i have come to expect from NEWTEK.

NEWTEK, please clarify what you are selling, and make my decision to stay with NEWTEK easy.

Thank you
Gary

geothefaust
02-10-2009, 02:07 PM
1. If you don't upgrade once, you don't have to pay extra. Upgrading is still the same cost no matter how many versions you don't upgrade for.

2. More will come this week. We were told early/mid this week.

3. Don't expect backwards compatibility with anything other than .LWO files. Same goes for plugins. The new file format NT will be using as standard is COLLADA.

As for more information regarding it's features, you should check out the...

FAQ (http://www.newtek.com/core/faq.php)
Tech FAQ (http://www.newtek.com/core/techfaq.php)

Jim Plant also had this to say:


An Apology and Some Questions Answered
To the LightWave Community,

First off, I'd like to apologize to you for the way we handled the LightWave CORE presentation yesterday. We still don't know exactly what went wrong with the stream. (It wasn't a NewTek bandwidth issue; the NewTek website problem was something completely unrelated.) We were streaming from a non-NewTek location. The video was going out OK and UStream was receiving it, but for some reason we couldn't get it routed to our LightWave CORE reveal page. After working with the UStream tech guys for more than an hour, we finally gave up and routed it to a different page. Of course, we lost a lot of viewers in that switch over. I know the delay and the switch really annoyed a lot of people...and rightly so...and I'm very sorry we didn't get started on time.

As for the presentation...well, that obviously did not go as we had envisioned. There are lots of reasons for that, but the main reason is that we simply ran out of time. We had a choice to make to send it out as it was or delay the LightWave CORE Reveal for a day or two, and in the heat of the moment we obviously made the wrong call. We know we can do better, and we'll be posting more LightWave CORE videos in the very near future.

I take responsibility for these decisions, and I offer my humble apology to the LightWave community for not meeting your expectations with our LightWave CORE presentation.

Moving on: I think I've read almost every message on every forum, and I can see that we've confused some of you about our upcoming LightWave development plans. We'll clarify these issues on our site, but I'd like to take this opportunity to immediately address some of the questions about the new HardCORE program and future LightWave pricing.

Question 1: Is HardCORE a new subscription program for LightWave?
Answer 1: Yes, but it is not mandatory. You can still buy LightWave upgrades the way you always have in the past. It's an optional program that will allow you to interact more closely with our developers and participate in the development of LightWave CORE. It also provides early access to the LightWave CORE technology. There are other benefits, as well.

Question 2: How often do you plan to ship a major paid upgrade?
Answer 2: Development plans are just that....plans; but we do hope to ship major paid upgrades more often than we have in the past. The CORE architecture will give us the opportunity to innovate faster than we've been able to previously.

Question 3: Will I be forced to upgrade or punished if I don't upgrade?
Answer 3: No. Just as always, you can choose to upgrade whenever you want and there will be no penalty if you choose not to. You can skip as many upgrades as you want and still come back in at any time and purchase the current upgrade at the current upgrade price.

Question 4: Will bug fixes continue to be free?
Answer 4: Yes.

Question 5: Does the HardCORE program include the LightWave CORE, or do I have to pay extra when it ships?
Answer 5: It is included.

Question 6: What if you don't ship LightWave CORE in Q4 like you planned, and my HardCORE membership expires before you ship?
Answer 6: You'll still get it. We'll guarantee at least one paid upgrade with each annual HardCORE membership.

Question 7: How much will the HardCORE membership cost next year?
Answer 7: We don't know yet. It's hard to predict our future costs and prices, but it will likely be the same as it is this year.

Question 8: When can I sign up for HardCORE?
Answer 8: Soon...probably in the next day or two. We'll send out a notice as soon as sign-up is available.

Question 9: What if don't live in the United States, can I still sign up for HardCORE?
Answer 9: Yes, you can sign up directly with NewTek on our site. We should have all that ready in a day or two.

Question 10: What if the HardCORE membership start date means my membership runs out too soon?
Answer 10: We don't want you folks worrying about your memberships ticking away while we get the HardCORE Community area up and running for you.

So, we're going to make your official membership start date begin with the first CORE software build we deliver to you.

Don't worry about what it says in your registration. We'll reset that when the first CORE build ships.

And, thank you for signing up early and having some patience with us as we get everything set up for you.


OK, those are what I believe were the most asked questions in the forums I read. If you have any other questions, please post them here and I will try to answer them.

With Regards,

Jim Plant
President & CEO
NewTek, Inc.


And this


HardCORE membership start date
We don't want you folks worrying about your memberships ticking away while we get the HardCORE Community area up and running for you.

So, we're going to make your official membership start date begin with the first CORE software build we deliver to you.

Don't worry about what it says in your registration. We'll reset that when the first CORE build ships.

And, thank you for signing up early and having some patience with us as we get everything set up for you.

Thanks

Jim Plant
President & CEO
NewTek, Inc.

Gar
02-10-2009, 02:44 PM
thanks for putting this up....they should make a sticky about it...easier to find for others..

that clarifys just about everything, and i am now glad i don't have to go find another 3d package to use..

Gary

geothefaust
02-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Hey no problem man. :)

I agree, making this information sticky would help quite a bit. It's in about 5 different places at the moment, heh.

iainbyoung
02-11-2009, 03:24 AM
3. Don't expect backwards compatibility with anything other than .LWO files. Same goes for plugins. The new file format NT will be using as standard is COLLADA.

So they won't be supporting legacy plugins? Does this mean that the money I've just laid out for IFW nodal textures, sasquatch etc is now wasted?

If so, I guess this also means any objects / scenes I am working on will have to be ditched / redone because they rely on plugins that will no longer be able to be used.

If this is the case, then it makes the upgrade much less attractive :(

Some clarification from Newtek would be nice...

Kuzey
02-11-2009, 06:08 AM
2. More will come this week. We were told early/mid this week.



Oh...cool, I can't wait :D

Kuzey

colkai
02-11-2009, 07:02 AM
I think it's the nature of the beast.
When you think of what worked for 5.6 and what worked specifically for 6.0 they are no longer necessarily ok for LW8.0 or LW9.x
Indeed, there were a few plugins which would work in 7.5B but not 7.5C
The only time your plugins are wasted is if you intend to completely abandon working in that version of LW.

My gut tells me that those who move into CORE are likely to be running LW9.6 for some time as CORE is developed. I just don't see it being anywhere near as feature rich as 'complete' as 9.6 is so I figure anything you invest in for 9.X should be good for enough time to get your moneys worth.

JMCarrigan
02-11-2009, 07:16 AM
...
The only time your plugins are wasted is if you intend to completely abandon working in that version of LW....

Exactly. Moreover, the bullet, as they say, must be bitten in order for Lightwave to become all it can be.

iainbyoung
02-11-2009, 07:29 AM
I don't see why they can't support the use of legacy plugins though, whilst continuing development of the new stuff, especially where shaders are concerned. For people like me (that don't make money from their Lightwave use), it's quite an investment to just throw away.

Surely the whole point of releasing a new version is to abandon the old one? I can't see many people wanting to do half a project in one version of Lightwave, and then do the rest of it in another version (possibly compositing between the two because they have different feature sets). Sounds like an undesireable and impracticle solution to me. Unless of course, Worley release a Core compatible version of Sasquatch :)

lwaddict
02-11-2009, 07:40 AM
If you've invested a ton of cash in plugins then just run both versions on the same system...been doing that myself with many of the upgrades, at least until I realize that they just weren't that important to me anymore.

But legacy support can only go so far, even on other packages.

I think Worley will need to step up though...:agree:
even though I've found FF to do the job nicely.

Lewis
02-11-2009, 07:41 AM
I don't see why they can't support the use of legacy plugins though, whilst continuing development of the new stuff, especially where shaders are concerned. For people like me (that don't make money from their Lightwave use), it's quite an investment to just throw away.


Because CORE is completely NEW code base on nowdays technology and plugins language and not 90's LScript and old code. It's different beast so old plugins can't work "just like that". You still can use your Lw 9.6 or previous so there is no harm done and since CORE will be much more advanced and open to 3rd party we will have better tools (less plugins for "normal" stuff like we have ton's of freebies in 9.x to fill out gaps of some missing features) and more advanced plugins from 3rd party when they start coding.

iainbyoung
02-11-2009, 07:49 AM
Because CORE is completely NEW code base on nowdays technology and plugins language and not 90's LScript and old code.

It's just software, and you can write software to do anything given time and a bit of thought. How about writing a legacy shader plugin for Core which allows the use of old plugins for example. There are ways around everything if you are willing to invest the time to work it out :)


You still can use oyur Lw 9.6 or previous so there is no harm done

So, I've just spent x number of hours texturing a dragon using Sasquatch and IFW2 textures. How do I now use this in LW Core? I can see how it can work with modeling tools, but with texturing this could mean a great deal of work converting objects so that I can use them with the new stuff (and that assumes that you can get the same finished result in Core).

Supporting legacy shaders would cut down the amount of work considerably.

Lewis
02-11-2009, 08:11 AM
There must be CUT in backwards compatibility sometime and for LW that's IMHO now (finally after so many years of legacy code) and that's price of progress and CORE is progress. If you spent hours of texturing dragon using Sasquatch well RENDER it in 9.6, you made it in 9.6 anyway - right, so what's the problem :)?? CORE won't be on market tomorrow or day after so i don't see what's the worry ? You'll have enough time to adapt to CORE workflow. Did 3D Studio 4.0 had all it's legacy stuff converted to 3DS MAX - nope, did Softimage 3.8 worked same in XSI 1.0 - nope..... I hope you get my point. I'm not saying your request is not good or something but it's unrealistic and I'm telling you how is it in business. LW CORE is something completely NEW and even if they make it look like LW it'll still be new SW and not just upgrade to 9.6 :)

What you are saying is that it's so easy to make 9.6 shaders work in CORE that i might ask if is so damn easy why i can't use them in MAX or XSI or Maya :) :)?? Could be done, it's just software - right :D?

iainbyoung
02-11-2009, 08:34 AM
If you spent hours of texturing dragon using Sasquatch well RENDER it in 9.6, you made it in 9.6 anyway - right, so what's the problem :)??

Perhaps I want to use that object inside one of my Core projects.

Are you saying that people who upgrade to Core should throw away their existing catalog of assets because they will no longer work? Sounds like a surefire way of annoying a lot of people to me.


I hope you get my point. I'm not saying your request is not good or something but it's unrealistic and I'm telling you how is it in business.

I write software for a living, (not animation software - compilers, code analysis tools etc) and if we told our customers to drop all their existing projects and addins etc for our new product, we'd have a small revolution on our hands and would quickly be out of business. This might be the accepted norm in the animation world, but don't tar the whole software industry with the same brush :)


What you are saying is that it's so easy to make 9.6 shaders work in CORE that i might ask if is so damn easy why i can't use them in MAX or XSI or Maya :) :)?? Could be done, it's just software - right :D?

I never once said it was easy. I said it was possible given the investment in time and thought. It's just software. I'm sure it would be possible to write a MAX plugin that would load a lightwave shader plugin and translate all the values into something that MAX could understand. There wouldn't be much point though, and no commercial imperitive for doing so.

Adding this to Core however, would enable upgraded users to continue to be able to use their existing assets, reducing costs for remodeling / retexturing, and generally making the whole experience a lot more user friendly. They need to make the tools in Core more attractive than the legacy tools so that people will migrate as soon as costs / time constraints allow.

Just my 2$ :)

Lewis
02-11-2009, 10:31 AM
Perhaps I want to use that object inside one of my Core projects.

Are you saying that people who upgrade to Core should throw away their existing catalog of assets because they will no longer work? Sounds like a surefire way of annoying a lot of people to me.


No I didn't say TAHAT and NT said LWO and LWS will work in CORE (nobody said to what extend). But if you expect all shaders/plugins/modifiers and stuff from 9.6 to work in CORE i think you'll be dissapointed 'coz lot of LW modifiers/shaders/plugins and stuff are HACKS around OLD/limiting code (especially FPRIMe - that's prime example where Worley needed his own Radiosity to get it to work). So now when CORE says SDK will be so open that anyone will be able to retrieve information he needs for plugins, FPRIME as it is now will surely be non working or obsolete 'coz it's totally different philosophy now (but then agian maybe worleay will make it even better wiht new code or CORe will update VIPER....). If you BUY CORE for 395/495 then you surely have LW 9.6 so your all assets are still working - i don't see why and investment in CORE would mean you need to trash your old models - LWO is open format so there is many softwares who can import it pretty fine so that wont' be an issue :). But new CORE format primary is Collada and that's clearly said.

iainbyoung
02-11-2009, 10:50 AM
The models will be ok, but the textures won't. Still means lots of potential work redoing stuff.

geothefaust
02-11-2009, 10:56 AM
It's pretty clear that LW needs to move forward. So yes, don't expect it.

If you like using legacy shaders, plugins, and so on, use LW 9.6. Simple as that. :)

It's a whole new beast... It's time to drop the dead weight.

geothefaust
02-11-2009, 10:57 AM
The models will be ok, but the textures won't. Still means lots of potential work redoing stuff.

How so? Not true. Render in LW 9.6 if you need to render a legacy scene.

mattclary
02-11-2009, 11:05 AM
The models will be ok, but the textures won't.


Actually, you don't really know that for sure. How about saving the panic until we know more?

People have been clamoring for a re-write for a long time, this is what you risk with a rewrite. It's not like 9.x is going to quit working, if CORE doesn't meet your needs, don't buy it. It's just that simple. :devil:

mattclary
02-11-2009, 11:06 AM
Simple as that.

lol! Well said. ;)

geothefaust
02-11-2009, 11:09 AM
Thank you sir! :D

EDIT: Right back at you, too. Your post covered it nicely.

iainbyoung
02-11-2009, 04:26 PM
How so? Not true. Render in LW 9.6 if you need to render a legacy scene.

I wasn't talking about legacy scenes. I was talking about objects. Just seems a bit annoying that I have spent the last 2 months fine tuning the textures on an object, only to find that I have to redo the whole thing to be able to use it in Core. Doesn't bother me greatly, but if I was trying to make money out of Lightwave, something like that could prove to be costly.

I accept that things have to move forward, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is rarely a good solution. Only time will tell I guess :)

Lewis
02-11-2009, 04:35 PM
Hi iainbyoung - but WHO said you'll need to retexture MODELS ??? Texture is one thing and shader is other (in LW at least :)), If you added BRDF and similar shaders that surely won't work but Textures in Diffuse, Bump, Transparency and other channels might work just fine as it's UV map so i still don't see what's all fuss about this :). Can we at least wait to see hows CORE importing LWO and then start whining if needed :D :D??

iainbyoung
02-11-2009, 04:39 PM
Hi iainbyoung - but WHO said you'll need to retexture MODELS ???

Ok, I wasn't precise enough in my description :D I have a number of objects which use Sasquatch and IFW2 textures for example. Sounds like these simply won't work.We will have to wait and see :)

archijam
02-11-2009, 04:42 PM
Reminds me of a time:
At one stage 3DStudio changed to 3DStudio MAX .. and some people were worried about the ongoing compatibility of the amazingly useful .3DS format with this odd new .MAX format ...

Often you don't see the limitations, except in hindsight.

zapper1998
02-15-2009, 09:52 AM
Ok
Copy Copy
Rodger Rodger






Michael