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Matthias
02-09-2009, 10:25 AM
Hello,

after I gave up last time i`m now trying again with LW 9.6 on a mac to get my LW camera data somehow into after effects CS4.

Has anybody been successful with RPF export. For me it doesn`t seem to work.

Are the Transmotion plug-ins the only way to get this done? Do they still work with LW 9.6 and After Effects CS4?

Any other solution?

PointC
02-09-2009, 10:32 AM
I've been using the Transmotion plug-in with pretty decent success. Before that I tried unsuccessfully to use the RPF export. The camera rotation always seemed to work fine, but position didn't. I assumed this was because LW is using meters and AE is using pixels. The data would be intact in the RPF file, but instead of moving say, 2 meters it would take it as 2 pixels etc..

Best of luck.

avkills
02-10-2009, 04:02 AM
I've been using the Transmotion plug-in with pretty decent success. Before that I tried unsuccessfully to use the RPF export. The camera rotation always seemed to work fine, but position didn't. I assumed this was because LW is using meters and AE is using pixels. The data would be intact in the RPF file, but instead of moving say, 2 meters it would take it as 2 pixels etc..

Best of luck.

I recall reading somewhere here that you could apply a multiplier on this to compensate for the 1 meter = 1 pixel.

-mark

Matthias
02-10-2009, 08:08 AM
Didn`t Newtek promise to work on After Effects integration during the LW 9.x developement? I have now 9.6 after waiting for a year for the final 9.5 release that never came. For me and, as i have seen on the forums, also for many others integration with after effects is important. Now i spent another day searching the web if there is a way to get the camera data to after effects. Especially on a mac there seams to be no possibility.
A reason to change to cinema 4d? Do we have to wait for core? How long? Will after effects support ever be integrated?

Chilton
02-10-2009, 10:50 AM
Hi,

After Effects integration?

To be perfectly honest, this is the first time I've heard of it, at least in the Mac forum. Maybe it was discussed elsewhere, though. But I'm curious, how would that work? Even better, how would you expect it to work?

-Chilton

Matthias
02-10-2009, 11:10 AM
Hi,

ok, integration is the wrong word. What I meant is just get Lightwave and After Effects get to work together. Like exchanging camera data. There are lots of people on the forums who are looking for a solution for that. In cinema it is pretty easy and straightforward. In maya you can export the camera data for AE.

Matthias

eblu
02-11-2009, 02:21 PM
hi, I just spent the better part of 2 days cobbling together, a:

POSITION ONLY (XYZ),
proof of concept,
Lightwave Layout Mot file To Aftereffects CS3 position data Converter.

it aint perfect, it aint pretty, but it works (for the most part), and I'm giving it away free.

its called motile.
I've attached it to this thread.
it requires Leopard, as in... its mac only.

feel free to use it, please do not assume its bullet proof, its good enough to be an in house tool, but not good enough to sell to anyone.

Darth Mole
02-11-2009, 05:10 PM
Chilton - if you want to see how it's done, check out C4D's implementation over at www.maxon.net

Chilton
02-11-2009, 05:57 PM
Hi,


Chilton - if you want to see how it's done, check out C4D's implementation over at www.maxon.net

Without going too much into my highly secretive write-beer-debug development style, I don't want to see how anyone else (well, our competitors) is doing this until I have a better idea of the issues at play. So I am going to pretend you are RickRolling me with that link, until I've done a bit more research. That said, you already know how we did it in CORE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSsJ19sy3JI).

[Chilton's Goofy Interface Theory]
Implementation (and to a greater extent, UI design) tends to be 'contagious'. When I see a problem through the eyes of someone else who has attempted to solve it, I tend to then think of the problem as though it can only be defined by that design. As a result, the importance of those things that their design highlights is elevated in my own mind.

And that means that any unnecessary complications or ridiculously stupid design issues end up emulated in some way in my own design, because I thought they were important.
[/Goofy Interface Theory]

So I'm going to think about this a bit more, and think through exactly how I'd do it.

That said, I think Eblu's approach is perfect. I mean, all the data is right there in the scene file, so I suspect a third party could easily put together a solution.

Matthias, does his app do what you need?

-Chilton

eblu
02-11-2009, 08:26 PM
Chilton,

Thanks for the Props! And hey! I'm a third party, I did it, and I can TELL you how to do it!

but unfortunately, my solution... already several generations past what you've seen, has hit a brick wall. its named: adobe.

some companies should have to pass an intelligence test before they are allowed to do anything in 3d.

I have a working translation of, position, scale, and individual channels of rotation. But if you apply animation to multiple rotation channels, she blows up real good.

Adobe, in infinite wisdom surpassing that of every real 3d company out there, and in opposition of all the tools available, have done something stupid with how their rotation values apply. I haven't figured out yet if its a different order of the channels (which would require a really NASTY workaround, if they did it Their way (ahhhhh sinatra) or if they_just_didn't_look_at_how_cinema_4D_does_it. tomorrow I'm going to try working with the OTHER animate-able rotation channels (why exactly does aftereffects Have 2 sets of rotation values anyway?)

the funny thing is, i did this thing, because we needed it, it took about 2-4 hours to figure out the math, and about 6 hours to make the app to a point where it would be useful. (in our application of the tool we only do 1 animated rotation axis), We spent about 2 hours before that looking for a third party solution.

Chilton
02-11-2009, 09:24 PM
I wish I had some advice there, but I don't. I'm not that familiar with AE, unfortunately.

-Chilton

Matthias
02-12-2009, 02:53 AM
Hi Eblu,

thanks for the programm. It seams that it doesn`t work with after effects CS4. But maybe i am doing something wrong?

I got a new version of Al Streets Transmotion Utilities and so far i think it does exactly what i need. It can transfer camera data to After Effects and from what i have seen on his website also export nulls to After Effects.
It works with LW 9.6 and After Effects CS4 on a Mac.

From what i hear of the people i know that do motion graphics on a mac most of them use Cinema 4d even if there are lot of things they donīt like in C4D. One reason is that it works quite good together with After Effects and is available for Mac.

The problem of transferring LW data to After Effects is adressed in several foums since years, so i think there is really demand for that.

Matthias

Matthias
02-12-2009, 03:12 AM
Another Question:

Does RPF export work in LW 9.6 for Mac?

eblu
02-12-2009, 05:38 AM
matthias,
adobe changed the way they store channel information for position between CS3 and CS4. I've only got CS3 to work with, so I must wait :( till the money people here pull the trigger on CS4 to add support for that. if you've got CS3, you could probably do the import there, and then move it to CS4. CS4 "SHOULD" be able to convert their own files.

Darth Mole
02-12-2009, 06:07 AM
Sorry: I'll rephrase my comment.

If you could see how easily and seamlessly C4D's implementation works, I'm sure you'd want to replicate it for LW.

At the most basic level - if I remember correctly - you simply select the objects/camera(s) you want exported and C4D coughs out a native AE file which you simply open. The camera data is all there along with lights, nulls for your objects, etc.

No doubt there's some very clever maths going on under the hood, but to the end-user it's simple and flawless. THAT's how it should be done (ie, no pissing about with text files, cutting, pasting etc).

eblu
02-12-2009, 06:40 AM
thanks darth.

you should... btw, be directing this UI lesson towards Adobe. they have a pay-for-it-sdk+ dev documentation, a binary file format, and a really stupid idea of how 3d works.

aside from paying adobe (through the nose btw... its not something that you or I could afford on our own) for access to their Binary file format dev documentation, the only other ways of getting information into AE are, as you say: "pissing about with text files, cutting, pasting and etc"

...and if you want the math the base formula is something like this:
AEValue = LWvalue*modifier + offset
modifier should have been 72, but it appears to be 80 for position
its a little different for D1 on the Y
and offset is the distance from the origin in AE (AE's origin is the top left of the screen, not dead center.)

theres conversions for measurements, but thats all the cleverness of the math.
the hard part I found was getting the text formatting exactly right.

(and trying to get ae to play fair w rotations... which I'm still trying to do.)

so in short: blame adobe on this one. We COULD do what you suggest, they just charge too much for entry. and clever? not so much.

JMarc
02-12-2009, 07:26 AM
Hi Matthias.

Has there been a recent release of an updated version of Transmotion? Could you provide a link to it? I would really appreciate that.

I have owned a copy of Transmotion Utilities for years but have not noticed anything new. However I have been having issues exporting to AE lately.

Best,
Jean Marc Rodrigue






I got a new version of Al Streets Transmotion Utilities and so far i think it does exactly what i need. It can transfer camera data to After Effects and from what i have seen on his website also export nulls to After Effects.
It works with LW 9.6 and After Effects CS4 on a Mac.


Matthias

Matthias
02-12-2009, 07:35 AM
Hi Jmarc,

here`s the link:

http://www.ats-3d.com/POIcam/POIcam_AEpro/

I tried it with a basic camera move and rotation and it worked. It`s definetely worth the 25$ in my opinion.

Matthias

JMarc
02-12-2009, 07:37 AM
Thank you Matthias!

Jean Marc Rodrigue

Darth Mole
02-12-2009, 09:53 AM
That comment wasn't targeted at you eblu! I appreciate the help you're trying to provide (despite the hurdles and flaming hoops that Adobe has put in your way).

It was really meant in reply to Chilton who - I would hope - could ask NewTek to pay for access to Adobe's SDK for a proper, seamless, professional, built-in solution which has - for 18 years and counting - not been a part of LW.

And I'll tell you now, if it ain't in CORE (which is aiming to be as connected and 'pipelineable' as possible), then someone should get their balls kicked up into their chest.

eblu
02-12-2009, 10:46 AM
hey.
this version of motile does position, rotation, and scale.

some notes: LW AND Aftereffects disagree on rotation order, and it breaks the translation. I'd need to do a master's in Matrix math just to understand the implications, and we don't have time for me to put on my learning cap. sooo...

if you are going to animate rotation, and you want to use Motile...

parent your object to a null, and do the animation of the P Channel Exclusively in the null.

in AE make a Null, and parent your placeholder object to it, so that it mirrors the LW setup.
this includes cameras, Objects, lights, etc...

its a pain, but what do you want for free?


darth,
personally, I'd rather Newtek just kept going in the direction they are going, rather than go down this singular blind alley. as long as they move towards a generic file format, the tools available for manipulating them will increase. Adobe is being a big butt head here. they are charging money from us, and blocking compatibility, for the tools we use. I've never had difficulty getting an sdk or documentation from apple, or Alias, I know Microsoft gives this stuff away for free. Sure there's tiered Pay-for-play options, but the idea is to entice developers to Want to do it, so you give the information away, you make your format easy to work with. Adobe is, by contrast trying to scare the devs all away. goal achieved. waste Of time for Newtek.

I did what i could to make the process as simple and straight forward as possible, I'm sure that other guy did too. it stings just a little to have our "finely crafted interfaces" referred to as: "pissing about with text files, cutting, pasting etc". Sure... it ain't luxury, but we're limited by AE here.

Darth Mole
02-12-2009, 01:00 PM
Ugh. You've got me wrong here. I'm not talking about your app - never even used it! I'm talking in generalities and past (long time ago) experiences.

All I'm saying is that a competitor application does a brilliant job of integrated a really fine AE solution, while we have to rely on people like yourself to work around the problem.

That's all, really.

garynb
02-12-2009, 05:49 PM
As a motion designer myself, I think Newtek would be missing a huge market if they don't have AE working with lightwave.

Cheers

Gary

Chilton
02-12-2009, 07:04 PM
Hi guys,

I thought I'd investigate this a bit more, to see if someone was actively working on it and I just didn't know about it (we're all pretty busy), but I'm having trouble locating any feature requests for it. Does anyone know if they sent in a feature request for it, or was most of the discussion in the forums somewhere? I found one feature request for it, dated Jan 16, 2008. But the request was a little vague, included no follow up conversation, and was requesting a way to copy and paste the data, which appears to not be what people here want.

Any other historical info I could look for?

Also, is this a Mac specific request, or is this a cross-platform one? If it's cross platform, discussion of this would probably get more support if restarted in another part of the forums.

Thanks,
-Chilton

eblu
02-12-2009, 09:06 PM
hey chilton,
can you divulge who asked for the way to copy data?
or at least forward him/her here?

sounds like motile does what they want (on 9.6 to AE CS3 conversions)

Matthias
02-18-2009, 07:56 AM
Hi Chilton,

on my search for a solution i found lot of posts about camera export.
On the Newtek forum as well as on other forums like Spinquad and with a simple google search.

From what I have found there seem to be workarounds on PC that are not available on Mac.

Matthias

Realimagesvideo
02-18-2009, 10:33 PM
Hi Chilton,

on my search for a solution i found lot of posts about camera export.
On the Newtek forum as well as on other forums like Spinquad and with a simple google search.

From what I have found there seem to be workarounds on PC that are not available on Mac.

Matthias

What did you find? Please share

Matthias
02-19-2009, 01:34 AM
I didn`t find solutions, just a lot of people with the same problem.

Al Streets Transmotion plug in seems to work well,
or eblu`s motile program.

Matthias

avkills
02-22-2009, 04:35 PM
From my experience After Effects and Lightwave have never played "nice" with one another. And I think that stands on the PC and Mac side.

Real camera motion exporting to After Effects from Lightwave would be a dream come true.

That app that everyone knows that offers seamless integration simply does not work the way I like to work.

Please kick this up the ladder Chilton. It would be a real shame if Lightwave Core did not offer this function, when nearly every other 3D app does.

-mark

Gary Wales
03-10-2009, 06:10 AM
From my experience After Effects and Lightwave have never played "nice" with one another. And I think that stands on the PC and Mac side.

Real camera motion exporting to After Effects from Lightwave would be a dream come true.

That app that everyone knows that offers seamless integration simply does not work the way I like to work.

Please kick this up the ladder Chilton. It would be a real shame if Lightwave Core did not offer this function, when nearly every other 3D app does.

-mark

I second this - using RPF or RLA should just work in AE.

thunderstormfx
03-10-2009, 03:24 PM
If someone would just write a plug-in that exports .lws to .ma, it would really streamline things. That's exactly what SynthEyes does, and it works like a dream.

Exporting just the camera data isn't nearly as useful.

eblu
03-11-2009, 05:46 AM
got syntheyes. I was under the impression that the .ma format was what AE used for its "copy+paste" workflow for importing animation data.
this true? then download motile. thats what it does... with disclaimers*.

*
1. AE is anomalously different in a critical, and stupid way from "real" 3d apps. it has a different order for its application of its rotation axes. this is regrettably important, and neither LW nor AE can be convinced to change. if you need rotation, then you have to work around the limitations yourself, by making nulls that you parent to each other, and that carry only 1 animated rotation channel. its complicated, but it works.

2. motile's ability to translate position data from LW to AE is still pretty untested... its basically proof of concept stage at this point... and while on paper I had a working solution, the algorithm that worked in practice, wound up being slightly different when it came to the DPI conversion. I expected 72, it seemed to be in need of 80-90. point being... some of the magic was trial and error, it may be slightly off. Nobody's said anything about this, but hey... maybe nobody is really giving motile a shakedown.

WaxSteel
03-15-2009, 06:30 AM
For anyone wanting to go from after effects into lightwave, try this ae script - worked for me though I haven't had to push something complicated across. Select the camera & nulls & export to a lw scene - seems to work.

But I agree the real hit & miss issue is going from lightwave to after effects. We should keep pushing for an easier workflow for this.

http://www.aenhancers.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=991&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=lightwave&start=30

JeffrySG
03-16-2009, 10:32 AM
Hi guys... I didn't read through the entire thread, but just to sum it up quickly, is there a easy accurate way to export LW camera motions into AE right now (free or commercial)? I have a client that is asking about this. They currently use C4D but I'd like to stick to LW if possible on it.

eblu
03-16-2009, 09:50 PM
jeffrySG,
read the thread.

waxSteel,
Push ADOBE. they have a seriously closed interface for other apps to work with them.

JeffrySG
03-17-2009, 07:09 AM
jeffrySG,
read the thread.
Ok, just finished reading the thread... so are the people using the TransMotion plugins having perfect camera export to AE now? I know those plugins have not been updated in a while but are they working with current versions of LW and AE? For 25$ it's pretty cheap if it does work.

avkills
03-17-2009, 10:36 AM
I hate the way Adobe 3D works in AE. It would have been a lot better if they made it work like a real 3D app. Oh well.

-mark

eblu
03-17-2009, 01:47 PM
ditto.
with the added: it'd be nice if they opened up their format. binary is so "1998" for compositing.