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View Full Version : Core...What I wouldn't want to give up.....



Snosrap
02-08-2009, 09:47 PM
With this Core thing just around the corner I thought it would be a good idea to tell Newtek what I wouldn't be willing to give up from the current LW to go the Core route. So without further ado here's my top 10 list:

1. Camera navigation (just brilliant!)
2. Viewport navigation (again just brilliant!) I see the engineers at work navigate in Inventor and just laugh.
3. LWCad snapping (I'd give up LWCad, but not it's snapping capabilities)
4. LWCad real-time Booleans (I'd give up LWCad, but not it's real-time Boolean capabilities)
5. LW's classic Surface Editor (Nodes are great, but for speed and ease of use you can't beat the classic)
6. Drop dead easy primitive creation
7. Traditional Sub-D's (fast and light weight)
8. FPrime like previewer/renderer.
9. Keypad viewport hot keys
10. The text based interface (icons mostly suck!)

There's more, but these are the essentials.

Cheers
Snosrap

lwanmtr
02-08-2009, 10:21 PM
I too am hoping they keep the good stuff.

animating a camera in Maya to me is a pain because even if you're in camera view navigating doesnt work as it should.

hrgiger
02-08-2009, 10:55 PM
As far as subd's go...I'm hoping they go.

A proper implementation of CC subdivision can be fast as well. Have you ever used them in another application? I found them very fast in XSI.

lwanmtr
02-08-2009, 10:56 PM
The option to have regular subd should be kept, i think.

geothefaust
02-08-2009, 10:58 PM
The option to have regular subd should be kept, i think.

It's still there; And they are called Doo-Sabin.

lwanmtr
02-08-2009, 10:59 PM
you made that up

geothefaust
02-08-2009, 11:01 PM
Lol! Did not! :p

Smooth DS = Doo-Sabin

lwanmtr
02-08-2009, 11:03 PM
...Doo-Sabin is a kind of nasty vegetable served at oriental grills...LOL

Hopper
02-08-2009, 11:07 PM
...Doo-Sabin is a kind of nasty vegetable served at oriental grills...LOL
No, that's 'bukkake'.

EDIT: OH! 'at oriental grills' .. I thought you said 'on oriental girls'. Sorry .. my bad. :D

jameswillmott
02-08-2009, 11:09 PM
The option to have regular subd should be kept, i think.

To maintain backward compatibility I'd say they'll keep them.

EDIT: Doo-Sabin isn't our beloved subpatch method, it's a little different but still pretty cool.

lwanmtr
02-08-2009, 11:10 PM
Doo....Doodie! LOL

geothefaust
02-08-2009, 11:11 PM
lol...

As for layer based surfacing, there is a node for that now. Assuming one will be in CORE too, we wouldn't need another redundant system for it. plug n play and your in business with the old layer system.

Drop dead easy primitives, I agree, and it looks like they are expanding on it with gesture system.

geothefaust
02-08-2009, 11:13 PM
To maintain backward compatibility I'd say they'll keep them.

EDIT: Doo-Sabin isn't our beloved subpatch method, it's a little different but still pretty cool.

Really? I've always thought LW used some form of DS.

The more you know... ;)

lwanmtr
02-08-2009, 11:26 PM
Theres a node for layer based surfacing? Can you copy an entire surface into it? Does it use all of the old procedurals? That has been one of my complaints about the textures in the nodes is that there are some 'classics' that I like to use.

geothefaust
02-08-2009, 11:37 PM
Theres a node for layer based surfacing? Can you copy an entire surface into it? Does it use all of the old procedurals? That has been one of my complaints about the textures in the nodes is that there are some 'classics' that I like to use.

Sure is. :)

Images have more info.

geothefaust
02-08-2009, 11:41 PM
Theres a node for layer based surfacing? Can you copy an entire surface into it? Does it use all of the old procedurals? That has been one of my complaints about the textures in the nodes is that there are some 'classics' that I like to use.

It's called Standard, under Materials.

It doesn't have a layer preview like the surfacing window does, but, everything is there, and you can drive everything with a node instead of a layer. It's simpler then layer surfacing, I stopped using layer based surfacing almost entirely when this node came out. I love nodes, lucky me. :thumbsup:

lwanmtr
02-08-2009, 11:44 PM
Hehe..hadnt noticed the standard node...

I've been slowly building more node based surfaces, but I do have some that I worked a long time at that I like to keep around...might have to play with standard and material mixer...hehe.

geothefaust
02-08-2009, 11:50 PM
:)

You can't go wrong with it. It's one of the best nodes. Use it all the time.

JCG
02-09-2009, 12:25 AM
In my case, it would be: Selection.
I love that clicking off the mesh doesn't cause you to lose all the selection. I can see how it might seem like a brilliant time saver to be able to deselect everything by clicking in some empty area of the viewport but for us with ADD, that would be deadly. One butterfly passes by and it would be back to selecting all those 1000 polys all over again.

I love the middle-click add to selection! One one my favorite LW features ever. Knowing that the middle button will always add and being able to deselect with the button right next to it without having to hold any keys (when we overselect by mistake) just seems like the greatest selection method that can possibly exist. (Although double-middle-clicking to add-select-loop wouldn't be a bad addition to the scheme :D)

tijgervisuals
02-09-2009, 01:23 AM
With this Core thing just around the corner I thought it would be a good idea to tell Newtek what I wouldn't be willing to give up from the current LW to go the Core route. So without further ado here's my top 10 list:

<SNIP>
Top 10 list
<SNIP>

There's more, but these are the essentials.

Cheers
Snosrap


Well Snosrap,

:agree: You've ticked my boxes, i agree in full. :agree:
I think, about the LWCAD booleans, that what the introduction showed us promises just that... and more!
They can be changed later on with the modifier-stack (radius, size, etc.) Very different from what we are used to, but interesting.
There's even a history-stack (kind of selectable undo-redo). Me like! :thumbsup:
Fprime-like preview is very, very important. Did i say it's very important? It is!
So if Newtek could put up some video's showing something like that before March 31... please! Then i would have no hesitation waving my credit-card. :D

So Newtek, get on with it....
I would like to get 'in to core' :hey: But not with only the intro-video.

Red_Oddity
02-09-2009, 04:02 AM
In my case, it would be: Selection.
I love that clicking off the mesh doesn't cause you to lose all the selection. I can see how it might seem like a brilliant time saver to be able to deselect everything by clicking in some empty area of the viewport but for us with ADD, that would be deadly. One butterfly passes by and it would be back to selecting all those 1000 polys all over again.

I love the middle-click add to selection! One one my favorite LW features ever. Knowing that the middle button will always add and being able to deselect with the button right next to it without having to hold any keys (when we overselect by mistake) just seems like the greatest selection method that can possibly exist. (Although double-middle-clicking to add-select-loop wouldn't be a bad addition to the scheme :D)

I would actually like the option to click in a viewport and have the selection get removed, if you do it by accident, that's what the history stack is for (selection are part of the undo/redo system as well, if i take Jason's word literally)

creacon
02-09-2009, 04:42 AM
I think Doo-Sabin has the same problems as CC, it's a recursive algorithm.
That means that each polygon gets subdivided:

level 2: 16 polygons
level 3: 64 polygons
level 4: 256 polygons

while the classic SDS in Lightwave have:

level 2: 4 polygons
level 3: 9 polygons
level 4: 16 polygons
level 5: 25 polygons
etc

The classic SDS's leave you a lot more control over the final polygon count and we haven't even touched CC's since they were implemented in LW.

So please Newtek leave this in

creacon








EDIT: Doo-Sabin isn't our beloved subpatch method, it's a little different but still pretty cool.

Nemoid
02-09-2009, 09:02 AM
The only thing on list i'm not a big fan of, is Lw viewport navigation. i personally like more the Maya way to go. so i'd like to have it as a general option for all whithin the app.

its more natural for me to hit one keyboard shortcut and 3 mouse buttons than the Lw way.
Matter of habitudes,i know but I became very confortable with Maya navigation style in some minutes, while Lw required more time for sure.

all the rest, i like it.
modelling wise, i especially like very much the
"when nothing is selected, ALL is selected" philosophy.:thumbsup:

Dexter2999
02-09-2009, 09:11 AM
keep IK Boost

geothefaust
02-09-2009, 02:00 PM
keep IK Boost

Expand IK boost. :)

Stooch
02-09-2009, 02:06 PM
I would actually like the option to click in a viewport and have the selection get removed, if you do it by accident, that's what the history stack is for (selection are part of the undo/redo system as well, if i take Jason's word literally)

totally agreed. i hate how i have to move my mouse all the way down or to the side to click a tiny bar... f that.

modo has it right. undo to the rescue if you f up your selections :)

kfinla
02-09-2009, 02:22 PM
Camera navigation is great.. viewport navigation not so much..
And as said else where.. hope we can still cut and paste polygons like pixels.

lwanmtr
02-09-2009, 02:52 PM
The only thing on list i'm not a big fan of, is Lw viewport navigation. i personally like more the Maya way to go. so i'd like to have it as a general option for all whithin the app.

its more natural for me to hit one keyboard shortcut and 3 mouse buttons than the Lw way.
Matter of habitudes,i know but I became very confortable with Maya navigation style in some minutes, while Lw required more time for sure.

all the rest, i like it.
modelling wise, i especially like very much the
"when nothing is selected, ALL is selected" philosophy.:thumbsup:

:agree: They should implement the 3 mouse button approach for other
navigation...and keep the icons at the top, for those who like that. Not a difficult thing to do.

But they MUST keep the navigation as it is when in camera view...Max and Maya both suck at this..I can easily set up camera moves in LW because it moves naturally (as if it's on a mount)

Cohen
02-09-2009, 03:32 PM
I really hope CORE keeps lightwaves traditional sub-patches / metanurbs as an alternative. They give more tesselation control come render time, and are generally faster to compute, as creacon has pointed out. And if CORE allows for adding sub-patch subdivision levels via node hierarchies, like Houdini, and offer brushed based tools. Then it would be possible to sculpt meshes simliar to zbrush, in terms of controlling the tesselation anyways. If CC remains the only option, then adding a 'final' subdivision layer may result in an unecessary amount of polygons. Where as Subpatches would a great way to obtain an optimal level of polygons without sacrificing system resources, and allowing for just the right amount of polygon detail. It's something that I don't want to see go.

lwanmtr
02-09-2009, 03:44 PM
Not only that, but I have tons of work that Ive done based on the surrent sub-d's that would probably end up broken..hehe

GraphXs
02-09-2009, 05:24 PM
I agree with all of the above:


Keep orginal Sub-D's

Copy/Paste of geometry

I love the layer system in modeler, but if history is saved with the mesh data, I can adapt

A new version of IK boost

Endomorphs

Non-gizmo mesh editing (optional)

Viewport controls, I love the center object button in layout

lwanmtr
02-09-2009, 05:45 PM
Endomorphs, definately...it's a much more effiecient way to handle them..

No sure if they can do a new version of IKB..my understanding is that the guy who originally wrote it is no longer with NT and not sure if anyone there has gone through it to know how it works...could be wrong, though. I would like to see a new version as it has never really worked on Mac.

hrgiger
02-09-2009, 06:49 PM
Ok, I suppose keeping LW subD's for backwards compatibility is probably a good idea.

IKBoost? I hope we can do a lot better then that.

Endomorphs? Hopefully non-linear.

Snosrap
02-09-2009, 06:50 PM
:agree: They should implement the 3 mouse button approach for other
navigation...and keep the icons at the top, for those who like that. Not a difficult thing to do.

And those of us who have not used a mouse for over year now? My Wacom doesn't have a middle button or a scroll wheel. As for those navigation buttons at the top, I only use those when I'm feeding my face! I wonder how many users do not know of or use the Alt, Shift and Ctrl keys along with their mouse (Wacom pen) for navigation. I'll say this again, BRILLIANT!




I love the layer system in modeler, but if history is saved with the mesh data, I can adapt


100% agree! Totally slipped my mind when making up my list.

ngrava
02-09-2009, 10:11 PM
Some people like the viewport navigation, others don't. Some people like the deselection in the edge of the view others like it in the empty part of the view. If there is one thing that this thread is proving it is that Core better have a lot more configuration options then the current LW. There's no reason why you should be forced into one way or the other. I think all we can do is simply ask for all the good methods and hope for the best. ;)

PS. My personal preference is for LW Modeler style navigation throughout the program. I used to beg for this many many years ago before I just gave up and started using other software. It's one of those things I love about Modo.

Snosrap
02-10-2009, 07:40 AM
Some people like the viewport navigation, others don't. Some people like the deselection in the edge of the view others like it in the empty part of the view. If there is one thing that this thread is proving it is that Core better have a lot more configuration options then the current LW. There's no reason why you should be forced into one way or the other. I think all we can do is simply ask for all the good methods and hope for the best. ;)

:agree:
Well said.

Cheers
Snosrap

bobakabob
02-10-2009, 02:50 PM
With this Core thing just around the corner I thought it would be a good idea to tell Newtek what I wouldn't be willing to give up from the current LW to go the Core route. So without further ado here's my top 10 list:

1. Camera navigation (just brilliant!)
2. Viewport navigation (again just brilliant!) I see the engineers at work navigate in Inventor and just laugh.
3. LWCad snapping (I'd give up LWCad, but not it's snapping capabilities)
4. LWCad real-time Booleans (I'd give up LWCad, but not it's real-time Boolean capabilities)
5. LW's classic Surface Editor (Nodes are great, but for speed and ease of use you can't beat the classic)
6. Drop dead easy primitive creation
7. Traditional Sub-D's (fast and light weight)
8. FPrime like previewer/renderer.
9. Keypad viewport hot keys
10. The text based interface (icons mostly suck!)

There's more, but these are the essentials.

Cheers
Snosrap

Agreed... but from what Jay said in the video, Newtek don't want CORE to be alien to present users. They surely won't want to reinvent the wheel.

My only issue is with 1... Camera nav in LW is OK, but we need the additional option of an XSI style trackball camera. Imagine being able to animate and render through the 'lens' of the Perspective viewport. There is a Japanese plugin partially enabling this but I've never understood why it isn't a standard feature.

Sarford
02-10-2009, 05:44 PM
totally agreed. i hate how i have to move my mouse all the way down or to the side to click a tiny bar... f that.

modo has it right. undo to the rescue if you f up your selections :)

You can always use the '/' key to loose your selection. If you map it to a key closer to your left hand its better (assuming you are right handed).

archijam
02-11-2009, 03:09 AM
Render status showing 100% for 5 minutes, when the render's clearly not finished.

Sometimes I even hit cancel, thinking it's done, and ... damn.

I would miss this. Make it stay. Please.

lwanmtr
02-11-2009, 05:05 AM
lol

archijam
02-11-2009, 02:05 PM
Apologies for the sarcasm there. Mornings are a bad time for me to lose my rendertime.

Looked great in the end though, thanks LW .. ;)

On topic:
I would miss the intuitive ways of adding more divisions to primitives, eg. boxes etc. - I would go further to say that all primitives should work like this, for example, the arrow keys don't add more points to beziers, that's a bit inconsistent IMO.

lwanmtr
02-11-2009, 02:13 PM
On topic:
I would miss the intuitive ways of adding more divisions to primitives, eg. boxes etc. - I would go further to say that all primitives should work like this, for example, the arrow keys don't add more points to beziers, that's a bit inconsistent IMO.

What?

archijam
02-11-2009, 02:26 PM
What?

tee hee.

Make a box. press up or across. the number of subdivisions goes up or down, depending what viewport you're in.

It's a feature I use constantly, especially when populating scenes with points for HD instance, etc. based on a background image.

However, this only applies to the basic primitives.

Bezier curve point numbers don't react to the arrow keys, you have to type a number, which i find odd.

In general I want alot of modeler to stay as it is, but become more consistent, and more history based .. which they seem to be doing.

[here i am assuming that all of the first CORE edits will be modeling ones .. hooray modeler!]

lwanmtr
02-11-2009, 02:38 PM
Yeah, most of Modeler is fine for me. I havent tried creating a bezier in modeler...hehe.

Of course, I'm jsut imagining (given the lack of new info), but I think they are working to make things work more consistantly.