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Curly_01
02-08-2009, 05:37 AM
Will LW Core be like Softimage ICE?

(I don't like Softimage btw. It's can't render 24 bit png images, it can't export to 3ds files, it costs a lot more, etc.....):devil:

But they are bashing up with their node based editing system. Since LW Core is Object Oriented Programming this could be possible in LW Core, right?

I hope so. For advanced special effects, like when you're trying to get that one particle roll over the cheek of your character or for crowd simulations this would be very usefull.

hrgiger
02-08-2009, 05:40 AM
From the techfaqs page, it sounds like it's headed in that direction. Although people should not have lofty expectations. From what I understand, Avid took 3 or 4 years to develop ICE by itself, Newtek has rewritten the entire program in two years so it may not be as deep and sophisticated as ICE is. Perhaps in time though, it could be. It sounds like the groundwork though is now there.

cresshead
02-08-2009, 06:52 AM
re lightwave core like sofimage xsi

>>i hope not...i don't have a labcoat and thick rimmed glasses, cord slacks. a tanktop and open toed sandals...and a dodgy beard/lanky greasey hair

AbnRanger
02-08-2009, 07:19 AM
I was thinking that they were shooting for Houdini, mostly. If you're going to build a program from scratch, that would be a pretty good model to pattern your development from...of course, using many LW tools and workflows.

I like it, and with it written in C++ it should be crazy fast now. :thumbsup:

mav3rick
02-08-2009, 07:45 AM
From the techfaqs page, it sounds like it's headed in that direction. Although people should not have lofty expectations. From what I understand, Avid took 3 or 4 years to develop ICE by itself, Newtek has rewritten the entire program in two years so it may not be as deep and sophisticated as ICE is. Perhaps in time though, it could be. It sounds like the groundwork though is now there.

pardon 3 this is 4th year of core

hrgiger
02-08-2009, 07:47 AM
pardon 3 this is 4th year of core

Jay said on the Core reveal that this has been two years in the making, so we'er just getting started on the third year. Either way, it's not a lot of time to have built an entirely new application, and have a system like ICE as well. But I don't really care to speculate as to how far they've come in this time. We'll find out soon enough what's in the first build I suppose.

cresshead
02-08-2009, 07:51 AM
c n p>>
LightWave CORE™ is a completely new architecture for LightWave. Over two years in design, LightWave CORE™ is the next generation, leading edge multi-processing, unified application engine created by the NewTek LightWave development group.

from here>>
http://www.newtek.com/core/techfaq.php

also softimage xsi is 9 years since release of version 1....

codename 'sumatra' xsi was in development for around 2-3 years 1998-2000 befor being released with out any modeling tools..
in that timeframe softimage lost it's dominance of the film effect market over to maya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softimage#2000_-_Softimage.7CXSI_1.0


2000 - Softimage|XSI 1.0

* Softimage|XSI 1.0 is released [27]
o New generation architecture, ui, workflow, etc…
o ActiveScripting
o Interactive Rendering (Render Region)
o Rendering Passes
o Render Tree
o GAP (Generic Atrribute Painting)
o Surface meshes (Nurbs networks)
o Non-linear animation - Animation Mixer
o Integrated Particles
* Acquisition de The Motion Factory, Inc
* Softimage|3D v3.9 [28]
* Softimage|XSI 1.5 [29]
o Adds Polygonal modeling,Subdivision Surfaces, and texturing tools
o Animation Clip Effects/Offsets, Equalizer, Bridge Transitions
o Scripted Operators (scripted plugins)
o Soft-Bodies
o Cloth,Fluids (from Phoenix Tools)
o SDK Object Model (COM)

cresshead
02-08-2009, 08:42 AM
... Microsoft developed Xsi, it was with the goal to bring 3Dapplications to WindowsNT, that was the reason why it was loosing. Actually Windows is the main OS for every 3D application. Microsoft is now dominance in the 3D marked, Irix lost. Microsoft didnt was caring anymore about Xsi and sold it to Avid.

yah...back at ya!! ha ha!!
Don't forget that 8 out of EVERY 10 games around that time [2000] were made on windows based computers with 3dsmax!:devil:
80% of the games market!

and in 1998 maya was 28,000
and softimage 16,500

...max>?....2695
...lightwave apx 1500...inspire 3d was around 500

wheni was looking at buying my fisrt pro app in 1999-2000 the 'base' part of maya ws 7500...did not include artisan, live, cloth, fur etc...each 'module was around 7000...that made a 'complete' maya 28,000!!

over at the sgi day...softimage just constanly bluescreened....maya looked like an 'expensive version of max....lightwave 5.6 looked good and 3ds max 2.5 stole the demo day down at sgi HQ in london...

and we get people moaning about plonking down 270 for lightwave core!!!....amazing how times change huh?
which is les than 1% the cost of maya back in 1998!

Intuition
02-08-2009, 09:15 AM
Maybe a regular user of XSi should comment in this thread. ;)

I would say that Core could potentially become similar to XSi's ICE if it wanted to. The thing with ICE was that people didn't really understand what it was (or is) looking from outside of XSi to begin with.

Ice isn't nearly as complicated as some think. Yeah its not "durrrr, um... I don't see a make awsome node... naaaarr", kind of easy but its easy.

Some effects are going to take a little learning to achieve. Ice does this well, its not too different from Houdini or cebas' thinking particles system.

A little mental effort into learning goes a long way.

geothefaust
02-08-2009, 11:52 AM
From what I gather in the tech sheet, is that CORE will be very similar to ICE or more so Houdini in most ways. How deep that goes for us users though, remains to be seen. I really think it will be more like Houdini, but with that low level access and ease of use that we have with LW now.

ICE is great, but it's only partially finished, and still had some way to go before it was like Houdini. With AD buying it and their dev team, they may finish portions of it before they let the dev team go. But really, XSI died, I stopped using, yada yada...


I'm taking the 'wait and see' approach when it comes to how deep CORE will be, again... Only time will tell. Next few weeks should be interesting. :)

The Dommo
02-08-2009, 02:42 PM
Microsoft did not own XSI at all.

Microsoft bought Softimage 3D from its previous owners becuase they wanted to have some very leading software on their then new platform Windows NT 3. At that time Softimage had only been on SGI IRIX machines. MS were showing this stuff could be done on PCs. This carried on until Windows NT4.

Around 1998, MS sold SoftImage 3D to Avid. They then continued the development of SoftImage 3D and then began developing Sumatra (XSI) in parallel to Soft 3D, much like LW 9.x and CORE now. Only Newtek have not sold LW or have not been bought :D

But anyway, MS did not develop XSI. Therefore it is nothing to do with MS that Maya became dominant.

XSI version 1 did have modelling tools, so whoever said it didn't is completely wrong. It had both polygon tools with Sub-Ds and NURBS modelling too. The problem with the modelling though was that it did not have ALL of the modelling tools that SoftImage 3D which it was replacing had. It is probably because of this that Maya took hold of the market, as Maya was starting to mture somewhat when XSI 1.0 was released - Maya had alrady been out for a couple of years.

Reviews out there say that XSI didn't actually deliver all the features that were originally promised until XSI 3.0 - so plenty of time for Maya to become dominent, whereas SoftImage 3D had ruled before that.

Just so you know.

Aside from that - C'MON NEWTEK, YEAHHHH!!! :D

jacobo3d
02-08-2009, 02:59 PM
If they just took a so smart and efficient architecture as C4D has as a reference, we should be very happy. I would assume that from a ground base stand point LW Core looks even better on the paper, in some points, but even compare it to C4D without try it out yet is too much to assume. What is clear is that they are heading in the right direction, and those are very good news. Core definitely looks great on the paper, and I can't wait to see it in action.
There's still almost a year ahead of us before Core comes out, and the other companies are not going to be sitting and watching, so it's going to be a very interesting year in that aspect. It's always good that the 3D market gets stimulated in some way, specially today with Autodesk owning a huge part of the market.

MrBlank
02-09-2009, 03:20 AM
It depends whether Core is a operator graph structure or a data-graph with operator relations. What makes Houdini unusual isn't that it's node based but rather that it's a pure operator graph from front to back. From the FAQ it sound more like a data-graph based system like Maya or XSI (ICE is an operator graph based system but XSI is not.)

bta1701
02-09-2009, 10:42 AM
It depends whether Core is a operator graph structure or a data-graph with operator relations. What makes Houdini unusual isn't that it's node based but rather that it's a pure operator graph from front to back. From the FAQ it sound more like a data-graph based system like Maya or XSI (ICE is an operator graph based system but XSI is not.)

Excuse me? ??

Cageman
02-09-2009, 01:18 PM
Jay said on the Core reveal that this has been two years in the making, so we'er just getting started on the third year.

"Over 2 years in design" should be the correct quote. Designing software isn't really the same thing as coding it, which leaves some room for actually coding tools and other things. When NewTek announced LW9.0 they told us that a parallel changeover was going to happen, instead of going dark. So, CORE has been in developement (ideas/design/coding phase) since pretty much LW9.0 was released.

Emmanuel
02-09-2009, 08:00 PM
Well, to be honest, I won't buy into CORE until I see something real.
Luxology, SoftImage, pmG...these took far longer than exspected to evolve into something usable, especially modo seems still lightyears from LW's toolset, messiah is still just animation/rendering...I can't see how CORE will be anything like LW within the next 2-3 years.Putting all those animation, modeling, rendering, shading things into CORE will take several years at best.Thats why I don't do what many modo early buyers did and believe some marketing blabla and spend money on something that won't happen before 2012 or so.

lwanmtr
02-09-2009, 08:42 PM
The difference between Modo, messiah, Softimage, etc...is that those started with nothing...Core has the advantage that alot of tools and code can probably integrated into it with little or no revising needed. In other words, with NT developing Core in parallel with 9.x they have probably been working at integrating as much of what has been done 9.x in order that they arent releasing Core in an incomplete manner.

Emmanuel
02-09-2009, 09:00 PM
Luxology got all the all old devteam with their years of expertise and practice, and You want to tell me they started from scratch ?
NT started from scratch with CORE, AND CORE is written in C++, which is not the same as C.They have to do it all over again.
Yeah, sure.I do remember that NT was telling us for years that a complete rewrite would out fo the question.Now they suprise us with a complete rewrite.They promised us modeler tools in Layout.The added better UV tools and removed them, they added CC-SDS and it is broken.9.5 was bug ridden.
Modeler was promised to be updated after the 9.x cycle.Will never happen.Will IK_Boost be in CORE ? Will it have hair, hypervoxels, the camera features, the material nodes ?
Well, frankly, that won't happen any time soon.Given NTs track record and the fact that they really LIED about LW's development (no rewrite, modeler tools in Layout etc), I don't have big hopes for a bright future for CORE.
Let's say 9.6 is the last official version of LW.Live with it.
And for those who believe in CORE (maybe the same who believed that modo would have animation capabilities by 2009, haha), hope for Yourselves that NT broke with their tradition and didn't reveal CORE to the third parties at the same time they revealed it to the public.Without developers like pictrix or worley, LW's situation would be real bad.With CORE, WE start from scratch.We loose ALL plugins.Think about that.

lwanmtr
02-09-2009, 09:03 PM
They lied? where do you get that?

At the start of the 9.x cycle, they stated straight out that 10 would be a complete rewrite, and that in fact it would be in parallel development...

lots
02-09-2009, 09:41 PM
They also went on a big campaign telling us that they chose that route so that there wouldn't be a gap in features, much like XSI had, or Modo has.

Frankly I don't see why everyones arguing about speculation :P Wait till we hear more then start yapping away on "Core will/wont be all its cracked up to be"

hrgiger
02-09-2009, 10:03 PM
Well, frankly, that won't happen any time soon.Given NTs track record and the fact that they really LIED about LW's development (no rewrite, modeler tools in Layout etc), I don't have big hopes for a bright future for CORE.
Let's say 9.6 is the last official version of LW.Live with it.


Um, no. Newtek never lied about LW development. They have always made it known that roadmaps are just that, roadmaps. They planned on having modeler tools better integrated into layout, but it didn't happen. Maybe the architecture wasn't there, maybe it just wasn't possible. Whatever the reason, it didn't happen but that's the way it goes sometimes in software development. But they didn't lie about it. You don't have big hopes for a bright future for Core. Well, we're all relieved to know where you stand.
And just for the record lwanmtr, Newtek never said that Lightwave 10 would be a complete rewrite. They only told us that instead of going dark for years and rewriting the application, they would be doing a parallel changeover to restructure the application for the fututre, making it more modular and being able to swap parts of the program out. They never implied that there was a second application (Core) that was brewing in the background.

Emmanuel
02-09-2009, 10:08 PM
http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showpost.php?p=127584&postcount=1
http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-05a.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060318145157/http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_letter.php
http://web.archive.org/web/20050805000203/http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwfuturedev.php

4 years later, still waiting for modeler in layout, working CC-SDS, state of the art character tools, state of the art UV-tools etc etc.
At that pace (4 years for enhancements to the rendering engine and the material system, plus minor enhancements to the character system and very small improvements in modeler..) CORE will be ready 2012 for beta.
I have read too many letters about the future of LW, sorry.

Emmanuel
02-09-2009, 10:11 PM
And just for the record lwanmtr, Newtek never said that Lightwave 10 would be a complete rewrite. They only told us that instead of going dark for years and rewriting the application, they would be doing a parallel changeover to restructure the application for the fututre, making it more modular and being able to swap parts of the program out. They never implied that there was a second application (Core) that was brewing in the background.

Thats right, and the reason is: had I upgraded knowing that I would invest in a sideproduct and not the real (?) thing...now, I would have invested somewhere else or waited til CORE comes to life.
I could consider CORE just another upgrade, though, and be happy to wait for it like I did before.

lwanmtr
02-09-2009, 10:30 PM
4 years later, still waiting for modeler in layout, working CC-SDS, state of the art character tools, state of the art UV-tools etc etc.
At that pace (4 years for enhancements to the rendering engine and the material system, plus minor enhancements to the character system and very small improvements in modeler..) CORE will be ready 2012 for beta.
I have read too many letters about the future of LW, sorry.

They never promised modeler in layout. "modeler tools'..thats different. And if you read, they also do say at one point they are having more difficulty than they had expected. CC's do work, just not with UV's. The CA tools are much better than they've ever been....

They've also recently admitted that the current code is simply not able to handle it..which makes sense, since LW is still essentially the same code as it has been since the beginning.

Given the speed at which 9.6 was brought up to speed, I am quite confident that they can deliver..maybe even by Q4..but then delays always happen.
Of course, if ya wanna wait til 2012, thats fine too..but it wont give you much time to play with it, since thats when the world ends...hehe

ivanze
02-09-2009, 10:37 PM
LOL!! December 2012.

monovich
02-09-2009, 11:31 PM
I have read too many letters about the future of LW, sorry.

no need to be sorry, just find an app that works for you and run with it.

dwburman
02-10-2009, 12:02 AM
There's nothing wrong with waiting to see how/if things actually work out before spending several hundred dollars on software.

Hopefully, we'll all be better educated on Core's initial capabilities in a few weeks.

And of course, we've gotten several good years out of the 9.0 upgrade so I won't complain be complaining about that. :D

Personally, I think core will be great. Then again, I've been pretty positive about LW through it's buggiest periods but I don't have the same pressures that the guys working in episodic TV have.

ncr100
02-10-2009, 02:15 AM
Softimage ICE is a node editor for data flow. Python is a programming language that can support data flow, and if someone hooked up a node editor to the Python in CORE then voila, rudimentary data flow diagram in CORE.

From the http://newtek.com/core/techfaq.php tech faq:

The true power of the scene graph is the manner in which each node can communicate with any other node. As everything is represented via nodes, and inter-node communications are effectively unlimited, nodes can actually be used to drive other nodes via dependencies and inheritance. The typical use case example would be the “driver/driven” concept, whereas an attribute of one node is dependent upon the attribute of another. Simply put, using the color channel of one node to drive a lattice deformation node, which is manipulating still another node.

Doesn't this seem kind of like what is going on with the ICE package?

hrgiger
02-10-2009, 04:04 AM
At that pace (4 years for enhancements to the rendering engine and the material system, plus minor enhancements to the character system and very small improvements in modeler..) CORE will be ready 2012 for beta.
I have read too many letters about the future of LW, sorry.

Except that Core is not Lightwvae 9. It's a completely new architecture and as such will be much easier and quicker to add functionality then in 9.

I think you're just trolling now.

praa
02-10-2009, 07:08 AM
... Microsoft developed Xsi,


as a montrealer i take offense ;)

softimage is a product developped in Montreal by ... softimage and his founder Daniel Langlois (who sold out to MS)

Microsoft invested... that's all

lwanmtr
02-10-2009, 03:08 PM
Yes, M$ invested money into XSI..they never did any of the coding.

robertoortiz
02-10-2009, 03:14 PM
Except that Core is not Lightwvae 9. It's a completely new architecture and as such will be much easier and quicker to add functionality then in 9.

I think you're just trolling now.

We seem to getting a lot of that too...

What is going on? Why are some people so upset all of the sudden?

-R

lwanmtr
02-10-2009, 03:22 PM
Might be plants sent to try and derail Core by putting doubt into users minds...hehe

Or, they're just bored

Ivan D. Young
02-10-2009, 03:22 PM
If Newtek could post a little info or a screen grab or a video, some info to show and expound upon last week. Maybe with some news the trolls will go away, but Noooo. So I guess we are on Troll duty for awhile!
I am not opposed to doing Troll duty, I just thought we would not have to at this point.:thumbsdow You know, without my boy, Jin, hunting trolls is alot more difficult.:thumbsdow

GraphXs
02-10-2009, 08:08 PM
I wonder what Newtek extracted from the LWv9 series (if anything) that will work in core? Wasn't the LW render taken out in version 8.x. What about hypervoxels? Bone tools? Shaders? I sure hope Nwtek can answer all these questions before March 31, I got an itch to spend money!

lwanmtr
02-10-2009, 08:12 PM
Trolls are best ignored..eventually they give up...hehe