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Nemoid
02-08-2009, 04:19 AM
Sorry to chime in like this , but i was thinking a bit to Nt Core presentation video and i noticed during ths small modelling session that there were no manipulators showed into CORE ??? :question:

In CORE i'd simply like to see Maya -like manipulators, for move, rotate, scale, with the option to change their dimension interactively and to make em disappear when needed (for example when tweaking meshes)

Manipulators are very useful - i'd say fundamental and are a standard in all major 3d apps: Lw doen't have them for modelling purposes now (only to move objects and items in Layout )

They are needed ! So add them in Core pls. :thumbsup:

P.S. Lw rocks.

cresshead
02-08-2009, 06:05 AM
defo agree on this...thogh it may have been a demo 'choice' NOT to show them..they maybe there in the vid just scaled down like what you can do in 3dsmax with the + and - keys...

i'll be asking about this on the core forum too BTW!

Nicolas Jordan
02-08-2009, 06:19 AM
I think that is one of the only things I miss from most other programs that Lightwave doesn't have as part of the UI. Even if we end up having the choice if we want them on or off would be nice in case there are some users that don't like them.

AbnRanger
02-08-2009, 07:09 AM
Actually, I am a bit confused about this. I thought I saw rotational gizmos when he made the twist...but that was about it.

hrgiger
02-08-2009, 07:13 AM
Actually, I am a bit confused about this. I thought I saw rotational gizmos when he made the twist...but that was about it.

Yeah, I thought when he was twisting the one object, it looked as though there was some sort of gizmo line or something there. The video I saw was too poor to make it out clearly.

This is why Newtek good quality downloadable videos would be best.

cresshead
02-08-2009, 07:26 AM
yeah the picture quality was really poor...still we'll have to wait and "see"!
on the other forum we should hopefully have full res screen captures and not rely on streaming pixelcity smudge vison!

Nemoid
02-08-2009, 07:29 AM
defo agree on this...thogh it may have been a demo 'choice' NOT to show them..they maybe there in the vid just scaled down like what you can do in 3dsmax with the + and - keys...

i'll be asking about this on the core forum too BTW!

Many thanx Cresshead ! i'm just not entered in the HardCORE program (I plan to do it later, in March) so thanks to make the request foe me and other users.

Just to clarify a bit, having tried other apps and being in contact with users making mainly archiviz, i can say Manipulators are really handy when doing more precise modelling (hard surface, for example) and espcially they are handy when modelling into a single viewport (like showed in core preview)

Definitely, when Jonas made deformation, video showed a sort of gizmo (i'd say quite similar to modo falloffs gizmos)

cresshead
02-08-2009, 07:33 AM
done n dusted!

hope we get maya/silo style 'move+scale+rotate all in one gizmo too

Nemoid
02-08-2009, 07:45 AM
:thumbsup:

MAUROCOR
02-08-2009, 08:01 AM
Sorry to chime in like this , but i was thinking a bit to Nt Core presentation video and i noticed during ths small modelling session that there were no manipulators showed into CORE ??? :question:

In CORE i'd simply like to see Maya -like manipulators, for move, rotate, scale, with the option to change their dimension interactively and to make em disappear when needed (for example when tweaking meshes)

Manipulators are very useful - i'd say fundamental and are a standard in all major 3d apps: Lw doen't have them for modelling purposes now (only to move objects and items in Layout )

They are needed ! So add them in Core pls. :thumbsup:

P.S. Lw rocks.


If there is one thing that I really donīt miss are manipulators. I hope we have the chance to desappear with them as an option if they are integrated into CORE.

JBT27
02-08-2009, 08:05 AM
Yeah, I thought when he was twisting the one object, it looked as though there was some sort of gizmo line or something there. The video I saw was too poor to make it out clearly.

This is why Newtek good quality downloadable videos would be best.

There was, definitely - in fact when I saw it, and it looked like some kind of twist deformer, it looked alot like the Modo one, though indeed Maya as well, I think.

Julian.

JeffrySG
02-08-2009, 08:39 AM
done n dusted!

hope we get maya/silo style 'move+scale+rotate all in one gizmo too
Mega Agree :agree::agree:


I hope we have the chance to desappear with them as an option if they are integrated into CORE.
Agree also... We should always have the option to turn them off as well.

Myagi
02-08-2009, 08:57 AM
I'm in the no-gizmo camp during mesh editing, it always bugged me in MAX/Maya. When manipulating objects/items they're fine (allthough I'd like to try gizmo-less in ortho vp's), I'd just like it old school during point/poly/edge stuff.

But seeing as quite a few things seem to have options to work like new or like old (separate modeler or not, separate lwo files or not), I remain optimistic that everyone could be pleased.

cresshead
02-08-2009, 09:08 AM
well if they can work it like 3dsmax and use a hot key like 'x' [3dsmax shortcut as an example] then the user could toggle the gizmo on/off.

Nemoid
02-08-2009, 09:28 AM
exactly!
when editing meshes as for example when doing organic modelling, manipulators can clutter the UI, so that many usres would turn em invisible, but on the other hand try modelling hard surfaces into a single window (a la modo) ahd you will suddenly see they can be actually very useful especially to understand better into what axis you move components, and more.

i'm also a big fan of current Lw indicators when modelling into quad view environment so that I'd want to keep em as well eh eh and have the best of both worlds.

another (minor?) thing to consider about manipulators is that new users coming from other apps will feel at home with them making the switch easier :agree:

cresshead
02-08-2009, 09:32 AM
i'd sooner have the option to turn off a gizmo than NO option to turn it on!

frantbk
02-08-2009, 10:42 AM
This is a bit off topic, but speaking of manipulators. I see that Nevercenter now has a program of leasing the source code for silo 2.1.1. According to Nevercenter's web page the lease allows you to modify the source code and do as you please with your software package. Also Nevercenter has a consulting pricing for help with integration of their source code in your project. So Silo/Maya manipulators can be in Lightwave core along with all of Silo's functions.

Nemoid
02-08-2009, 02:37 PM
very interesting! since Lwcore sdk should be very opened could also be that newtek or some third party could be interested into using that source code as well? good to know for sure :thumbsup:

Silkrooster
02-08-2009, 02:40 PM
I don't think there were such gizmo's in the demo. From the way I took what they said was when you use instancing, what ever you do to the original, the instances are updated. The example he showed was twisting a cylinder.

multipass
02-08-2009, 03:31 PM
When i first switched to LW i missed the manipulators, but after getting used to it i can model much faster without having to worry about clicking on the manipulator. if you just hold control and move in the general direction of the axis you want you will 99% of the time move in that direction and make up a lot of time than having to take the time to click on the exact spot to move. either that or just use a orthographic view if you want to be sure.

If they add it in i hope its only an option and not a default.

jasonwestmas
02-08-2009, 03:39 PM
We have manipulator handles in the original lightwave layout, So chances are that in CORE we will be working in a single environment with different viewing modes and animation and modeling will both have handles. And that's not entirely true that there are no manips in the presentation. I saw some rotational ones when Jonas deformed the cylinder.

Philbert
02-08-2009, 04:40 PM
It would be great if there was an option to toggle them on and off. I really like modeling the current way, but there are a few situations when I could see having a universal manipulator being useful.

I don't know a thing about programing, but it seems to me that with such an open SDK someone could theoretically create a UM or alter one that is already included.

hrgiger
02-08-2009, 05:14 PM
I don't think there were such gizmo's in the demo. From the way I took what they said was when you use instancing, what ever you do to the original, the instances are updated. The example he showed was twisting a cylinder.

I just watched it again. When he's twisting the cylinder and the instances are updated, you can see the gizmo on the source item. I didn't notice it before but it's definitely there. Sweet!

hrgiger
02-08-2009, 05:16 PM
It would be great if there was an option to toggle them on and off. I really like modeling the current way, but there are a few situations when I could see having a universal manipulator being useful.

I don't know a thing about programing, but it seems to me that with such an open SDK someone could theoretically create a UM or alter one that is already included.


Well, if it's anything like XSI's implementation, you will be able to move the gizmo to change the action center. You could say snap it to an edge, point, or polygon or even just the center of the objects bounding box. This is how gizmos shine over the action centers we have in Lightwave now.(selection, origin, mouse, and pivot)

Silkrooster
02-08-2009, 08:23 PM
I just watched it again. When he's twisting the cylinder and the instances are updated, you can see the gizmo on the source item. I didn't notice it before but it's definitely there. Sweet!

What exactly is the gizmo suppose to do. Other than be a name for something cool that hasn't been named yet. :hey:

Philbert
02-08-2009, 08:29 PM
What exactly is the gizmo suppose to do. Other than be a name for something cool that hasn't been named yet. :hey:

Gizmo, Universal Manipulator, same thing. Like the one we have in Layout only in most programs now you don't need to hit a key to switch between move, rotate, and scale.

Silkrooster
02-08-2009, 08:43 PM
Ah you mean the graphical control on the object. OK. Yeah I didn't pay any attention if there is one or not. But I would assume that there is one.
That was one of my questions in the back of my mind though. The selection of objects in layout was different that in modeler. How is the selection of objects going to change. Also will multiple objects be allowed on the same layer. I assume so, but layout kind of use layers for the selection process.

geothefaust
02-08-2009, 08:49 PM
Actually I don't think that there will be layers. It wouldn't make sense in an object oriented environment. Each mesh that is not connected to one another would be treated as separate objects, ala Maya. But hey, if we can still use layers too, inside or on top of the outliner, that would be great, but somewhat useless. :)

Philbert
02-08-2009, 08:58 PM
I do really like layers, but I have to admit they would be kind of useless. I guess if you load up an older LWO file it will automatically convert the layers into objects, same as it currently does when you load an LWO into Layout. It will be interesting to see how selections are handled. Possibly the space bar toggles between point, edge, poly, and also object.

Myagi
02-08-2009, 09:01 PM
for the love of god people! layers are the best thing since sliced bread ;)

Silkrooster
02-08-2009, 10:11 PM
I don't know about useless. I think they still help with organizing. Though adding a true grouping feature would be nice.

Nemoid
02-09-2009, 02:03 AM
When i first switched to LW i missed the manipulators, but after getting used to it i can model much faster without having to worry about clicking on the manipulator. if you just hold control and move in the general direction of the axis you want you will 99% of the time move in that direction and make up a lot of time than having to take the time to click on the exact spot to move. either that or just use a orthographic view if you want to be sure.

If they add it in i hope its only an option and not a default.

eheheh this is actually what i do when using modeler!
I like also modelling into a quad environment and such.
But, believe me there are alot of users coming from other apps used into modelling within a single perspective view and that can feel totally lost without a manipulator/indicator of the actual direction in which they are moving components.

i think manipulators can also be used as indicators in the sense that when users hold down ctrl and move, manipulator could highlight the axis in which components are gonna move.

in that way , you'll be 100% sure about what you're doing.

another thing is : yes, option to make em disappear is required for sure. as i said, in particular during organic modelling , when tweaking meshes wyou'd not want manipulators to clutter your workspace.

so in short :

1) universal manipulators for transform operations (move, scale, rotate)
2) manipulator as indicators ( ctrl + keyboard shortcuts) it highlights axis in which you move
3) option to scale manipulator dimension with keyboard shortcut
4) option to toggle manipulator on/off

about object selection and such

first off, trying other apps , i found that usually they doesn't separate formats (object and scene formats as Lw does)
i do think tho, this isactually a huge advantage Lw offers to users over other apps. so Lwo, Lws should be mantained.
Considering that Nt is going to use also standard formats others way to save your data should be required as an option. (.obj, .fbx, and other exchange formats )

About selection: there are several ways to implement this: the best one could be simply expanding selection modes so that you have vertex, faces, edges, objects. and , you could also select a particular layer of say object in the outliner window which should list all its layers.
:thumbsup:

Nt also could organize UI into compartments (model,setup, animate, render) which could b nothing more than user designed layout to organize workflow better. you could organize them as wou want, putting there all the tools you require for modelling only and actually what you require for it. require a light rig while you model ? you can have it. require render preview? done.
into such an environment you could do something like that:

in the modelling compartment you could choose to work with a particular object and find yourself into modeler for that object alone with all its layers, forget all the other stuff that' in this particular moment doesn't actually serve you, and so, have an organized workflow and feel at home as it happens to be in current Lw 9.x

Fulvio
02-09-2009, 04:06 AM
When i first switched to LW i missed the manipulators, but after getting used to it i can model much faster without having to worry about clicking on the manipulator. if you just hold control and move in the general direction of the axis you want you will 99% of the time move in that direction and make up a lot of time than having to take the time to click on the exact spot to move. either that or just use a orthographic view if you want to be sure.

If they add it in i hope its only an option and not a default.

I like to model in single (perspective) view and when I've to move along ortho axis, often I loss my time to undo e redo the move if I'm not in the right angle that take my desired ortho direction.
For me a modeler program without manipulators is like a car without wheels ... but I know that every users have the personal workflow and preferences.

Enable/disable manipulators is the right chose :thumbsup:

dmack
02-09-2009, 04:13 AM
Manipulators are good BUT the ability to 'haul' (with ctrl constraining) as we currently have is essential to fast workflow.

g4dual
02-09-2009, 04:58 AM
Sorry to chime in like this , but i was thinking a bit to Nt Core presentation video and i noticed during ths small modelling session that there were no manipulators showed into CORE ??? :question:

In CORE i'd simply like to see Maya -like manipulators, for move, rotate, scale, with the option to change their dimension interactively and to make em disappear when needed (for example when tweaking meshes)

Manipulators are very useful - i'd say fundamental and are a standard in all major 3d apps: Lw doen't have them for modelling purposes now (only to move objects and items in Layout )

They are needed ! So add them in Core pls. :thumbsup:

P.S. Lw rocks.


:agree: It's good idea! :thumbsup:

mastro3d
02-09-2009, 05:07 AM
No manipulators, no party! :thumbsdow
****! :devil:

Nemoid
02-09-2009, 05:12 AM
Manipulators are good BUT the ability to 'haul' (with ctrl constraining) as we currently have is essential to fast workflow.

sure ! and we CAN have both. don't be worried! i'm all for a very fast workflow.:thumbsup:

cresshead
02-09-2009, 05:13 AM
havng the option to turn them 'off' is much more preferable to NOT having an option to turn them ON...

Nemoid
02-09-2009, 05:45 AM
well said it's all a matter of options !
Better to have a tool and be able to turn it off than not having it at all.

this is valid for many things within a software.


example : navigation style.

options for different styles of viewport navigation :

Navigation classic Lw school
Maya navigation style (easier to undertsand , easier on the hand and more a standard IMHO)
xsi style with possibility to press a keystroke and navigate however you want.

mouse buttons customization possibilities

all options , options, options. :thumbsup:

lordtangent
02-14-2009, 02:31 PM
Ah yes, manipulators.

I love them and hate them. They are annoying most of the time when modeling, but I would like the option to show some kind of gizmo to visually indicate what the selected tool does. I like classic LW modeler in that respect. No manipulators, but gadgets for the tools that need them. And even though Modo added manipulators and stuff, I feel that for modeling it isn't always an improvement. Often Manipulators almost force you to do about twice as many clicks to get anything done.

Of course, manipulators are a total requirement for animating and rigging. So in a unified environment they are required.

I think the best solution would be to make one "Uber" manipulator/gadget type that can display itself correctly based on context. And of course to also give the user the option to hide it. Taking to tool stack idea from Modo: tools should be as GENERAL as possible and then stacked/configured to do what the user expects. That includes the display of the manipulator/gadget.

One of the best manipulators out there to copy style wise is the one from Messiah. Very utilitarian yet not too visually cluttered. I packs a lot of functionality into an intuitive and easy to look at tool.

JeffrySG
02-14-2009, 03:45 PM
Actually I don't think that there will be layers. It wouldn't make sense in an object oriented environment. Each mesh that is not connected to one another would be treated as separate objects, ala Maya. But hey, if we can still use layers too, inside or on top of the outliner, that would be great, but somewhat useless. :)

It would still be nice to have layers to be able to place 'groups' of objects on specific layers. Unless CORE has some other type of 'grouping' system. But the layer system is pretty good but the layer panel needs a lot of loving and updating to get to the 21 century.

Ztreem
02-14-2009, 04:00 PM
yeah the picture quality was really poor...still we'll have to wait and "see"!
on the other forum we should hopefully have full res screen captures and not rely on streaming pixelcity smudge vison!

If you go to the core website you can look at the video again, now it's a bit sharper and some things like the shape recognistion is updated.

MooseDog
02-14-2009, 05:12 PM
If you go to the core website you can look at the video again, now it's a bit sharper and some things like the shape recognistion is updated.

as is the deformation segment. at the risk of starting a wildfire, is that a deformation cage around that bending cylinder? :thumbsup:

GraphXs
02-14-2009, 07:14 PM
Ya, I love the freeform style of modeling that LW currently has. It would be nice sometimes to have manipulators, but I love using the postion of my mouse to determin the editing for strech or rotate. I hope we will now have the best of both world!

UnCommonGrafx
02-15-2009, 09:10 AM
I must say, at first, Messiah's was a frikkin' nightmare!
But man, is it efficient once you get oriented.