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hrgiger
02-06-2009, 04:50 PM
One of the things I haven't heard mentioned yet is whether or not those who are in the hardcore membership and will be receiving regular builds of Core will be under NDA. I assume that we will be but I haven't heard any official word. There seems to be some confusion about this among some users, myself included.

kfinla
02-06-2009, 05:06 PM
NT may still be deciding. At the moment there needs to be more information put out there about the product, so NDA I think would hurt sales. I can't say I'm planning to pay so I can have the priviledge to find out what in fact I bought. I anticipate a bunch of public info in the coming weeks. That said, the user base probably will be under NDA. For example lets say initially things are very buggy, that could hurt sales. Vue is a good example of this, u have to be a registered user to participate in their forums and hear about all the problems. Ofcourse this is after you have paid.

NT will probably be the only ones deciding what and how to show things over the year.

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 05:27 PM
Yes, the users were who I was referring to. I realize that Newtek will be putting out their own info.

JMCarrigan
02-06-2009, 05:29 PM
I have never heard of buying something THEN being told, oh by the way....

Well, I mighta heard of that, but it was in a nightmare.:D

By the way, how do I get other smilies for within the body of a reply?

Silkrooster
02-06-2009, 05:50 PM
I think it will be, which is why I believe the clue for Pandora's box was in there. They had to open it just to get everyone involved for the beta. How long they leave it open is anyones guess.

Philbert
02-06-2009, 06:11 PM
By the way, how do I get other smilies for within the body of a reply?

Well if you use the advanced editor (not Quick Reply) there are some on the right and a "more" link, there's also a drop-down box for them on the top with a "show all smilies" link at the bottom of the list. :chicken:

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 06:11 PM
Until Core ships, I assume that anything that goes on in the Beta program will be under the same NDA as the 9.x beta...though, they might allow some teaser pics and animations to leak out...hehe

Philbert
02-06-2009, 06:29 PM
I can't say personally, since I haven't been able to pick up HC yet, but I'm not hearing anyone say they signed an NDA or otherwise agreed to one. With the old beta there was a specific NDA that you had to agree to before you could continue with the beta sign up.

JMCarrigan
02-06-2009, 06:31 PM
Well if you use the advanced editor (not Quick Reply) there are some on the right and a "more" link, there's also a drop-down box for them on the top with a "show all smilies" link at the bottom of the list. :chicken:

Oh! Thanky:stumped::stumped: the [more] was so light of blue, I did not see it.

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 06:34 PM
They probably havent signed an NDA yet because the beta hasnt been released yet.

Philbert
02-06-2009, 06:40 PM
They probably havent signed an NDA yet because the beta hasnt been released yet.

OK suppose I purchase it today. Then in a few weeks the beta comes out and they ask me to sign an NDA. I read it over and decide I don't agree with it for whatever reason. So are they going to deny me the product that I already paid for?

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 06:44 PM
OK suppose I purchase it today. Then in a few weeks the beta comes out and they ask me to sign an NDA. I read it over and decide I don't agree with it for whatever reason. So are they going to deny me the product that I already paid for?

I would assume then that you wouldn't get the builds if you wouldn't agree to the NDA. But you'd still get the membership card, T-shirt, not to mention the software once it was released. You still just got the final version for a lot less money.

What's the big deal about an NDA anyway that makes people hesitant? I don't get it.

Philbert
02-06-2009, 06:50 PM
I personally don't care about the NDA I'd agree to it in a second. I was just making a point that it's odd (to me anyway) that they would ask you to sign it at any other time than the purchase or registration times.

I'm hoping Obama will stimulate my wallet so I can find out for myself.

cresshead
02-06-2009, 06:51 PM
I would assume then that you wouldn't get the builds if you wouldn't agree to the NDA. But you'd still get the membership card, T-shirt, not to mention the software once it was released. You still just got the final version for a lot less money.

What's the big deal about an NDA anyway that makes people hesitant? I don't get it.


i'll tell you a secret...some people just can't keep secrets...err...doh!:o

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 07:00 PM
My understanding is that buying now just gets you a better upgrade deal than waiting...it's not just about the beta program (thats just a perk)..you still get the final version, you just arent paying as much as someone who waits till it ships

frantbk
02-06-2009, 07:11 PM
So many of you are willing to pay $395.00 - $495.00 membership fees and then be told by NewTek you're under an NDA? I guess that would be under the stupid is as stupid does of contract management. :eek: :thumbsdow :devil:

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 07:16 PM
Whats the problem? If you are participating in a beta program, you're going to be under an NDA. This is standard for any developer as they dont want competitors to get details of whats being developed.

If you dont want to participate in the beta, you dont have to..it's just one of the perks of being in the HardCore program. Of course, you also wont be able to preview Core or assist in crushing bugs....But, you still get the final s/w when it ships.

Adrian Lopez
02-06-2009, 07:27 PM
If you dont want to participate in the beta, you dont have to..it's just one of the perks of being in the HardCore program. Of course, you also wont be able to preview Core or assist in crushing bugs....But, you still get the final s/w when it ships.
It would be nice if they actually disclosed that in their CORE page (http://www.newtek.com/core/), and on the purchase page. Where they state "Exclusive access to ongoing builds of LightWave CORE™", they should instead state "Exclusive access to ongoing builds of LightWave CORE™ (Subject to Non-Disclosure Agreement)." Otherwise, I'm not really getting what I paid for.

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 07:33 PM
LOL..well, they arent known for their great use of english...hehe

I think as they get closer to a beta launch, they'll give out more details.

Philbert
02-06-2009, 07:49 PM
It's still "exclusive access to ongoing builds" regardless of whether they tell you about the NDA in advance or not. So yes, you are getting what you pay for. I'm curious what the big problem is with an NDA, do you just have a really hard time keeping secrets and you're afraid you'll let something slip and get in trouble?

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 07:51 PM
Where they state "Exclusive access to ongoing builds of LightWave CORE™",

Yes, exclusive, as in excluding others while including you. If everyone had access then they would have said inclusive.

Adrian Lopez
02-06-2009, 08:15 PM
Yes, exclusive, as in excluding others while including you. If everyone had access then they would have said inclusive.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? I know quite well the meaning of the word exclusive, and in no way does Newtek's use of the word suggest that people who subscribe to HardCORE are in any way to be excluded from access to beta versions of the software. Indeed, what the text suggests is that access is exclusive of those who are not HardCORE members.

Adrian Lopez
02-06-2009, 08:18 PM
It's still "exclusive access to ongoing builds" regardless of whether they tell you about the NDA in advance or not. So yes, you are getting what you pay for.No. If I have to sign an NDA before being granted such access and the NDA requirement is not disclosed at the time of purchase, I am most definitely not getting what I paid for.

TimothyB
02-06-2009, 08:18 PM
Would a NDA prevent you from being able to post any work you do in Core? The whole thing is to get Core now to use right away, plus inside access to the development and possible influence. If there's NDA, and you can't show anything you make, especially with new features, what's the point of having it all? I understand if you are a real beta tester and sign up knowing all this, but this membership isn't about being a tester but getting you use it right away with no obligation of reporting any bugs unless you want to participate in the forums.

Kind of reminds me when someone posted some renders usering the Car Shader and people were asking what it was, then the poster realized what he just did.

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 08:33 PM
Would a NDA prevent you from being able to post any work you do in Core? The whole thing is to get Core now to use right away, plus inside access to the development and possible influence. If there's NDA, and you can't show anything you make, especially with new features, what's the point of having it all? I understand if you are a real beta tester and sign up knowing all this, but this membership isn't about being a tester but getting you use it right away with no obligation of reporting any bugs unless you want to participate in the forums.



With the beta program for 9.x, we've always had the ok to post things. We were just not supposed to discuss developments, bugs, issues, builds, etc... of the actual beta.
No, you are not obligated to report bugs or discuss development of Core at all while a hardcore member, although the more people helping out helps Netwek find as many issues as possible so I don't know why you wouldn't want to. And the point is not to get a working piece of the software into your hands right away, it's just a privilege of being a member that you get to use the software, test it out for yourself and follow the development of Core before the final release. You should realize that your will be using a beta version of the software, and as such, should not be used as production ready software (i.e. use at your own risk).
And Adrian, I don't even know what you're talking about at this point. The benefit that says Exclusive access to ongoing builds of Lightwave core. It's pretty clear. Whether or not there is an NDA doesn't change anything. As a member, you will have have access to builds of Core. As in using it, not blabbing about it.

Adrian Lopez
02-06-2009, 08:38 PM
And Adrian, I don't even know what you're talking about at this point.
It seems to me you just don't want to understand what I'm saying, but it's really quite simple: If it's true that an NDA is required, the terms under which such access is actually granted (HardCORE members who sign an NDA will be granted access) are different from the terms advertised (HardCORE members, unqualified, will be granted access)

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 08:50 PM
It seems to me you just don't want to understand what I'm saying, but it's really quite simple: If it's true that an NDA is required, the terms under which such access is actually granted (HardCORE members who sign an NDA will be granted access) are different from the terms advertised (HardCORE members, unqualified, will be granted access)

Again, you're arguing semantics. Just because NT didn't mention an NDA, doesn't mean there won't be one. Exclusive could just mean that as a harcore member you are eligible for access to the builds. The language there doesn't negate the possibility that they may have full intention of having us sign an NDA. You can argue that if you want, but further discussion about it is pretty pointless. Why don't we just wait and see.

TimothyB
02-06-2009, 08:51 PM
With the beta program for 9.x, we've always had the ok to post things. We were just not supposed to discuss developments, bugs, issues, builds, etc... of the actual beta.
No, you are not obligated to report bugs or discuss development of Core at all while a hardcore member, although the more people helping out helps Netwek find as many issues as possible so I don't know why you wouldn't want to. And the point is not to get a working piece of the software into your hands right away, it's just a privilege of being a member that you get to use the software, test it out for yourself and follow the development of Core before the final release. You should realize that your will be using a beta version of the software, and as such, should not be used as production ready software (i.e. use at your own risk).
And Adrian, I don't even know what you're talking about at this point. The benefit that says Exclusive access to ongoing builds of Lightwave core. It's pretty clear. Whether or not there is an NDA doesn't change anything. As a member, you will have have access to builds of Core. As in using it, not blabbing about it.

Sorry if it sound like that. I'd love to participate and report all I could and make suggestions. I was just trying to figure out a way to say that compared to past standard beta programs that I hope this membership would be different, less obligations, and no NDA. But if you can post work, then I see no problem particularly.

They're making it very easy for just about anyone to be in the beta program with this, especially with it being tied to all purchases now. So I would hope they list any NDA restrictions right now before people that never done a beta sign without knowing of this possibility.

Adrian Lopez
02-06-2009, 09:01 PM
Again, you're arguing semantics.
Why are people down on arguing semantics, anyway? Semantics involves meaning, and meaning is essential to communication.


Just because NT didn't mention an NDA, doesn't mean there won't be one.It means they did not disclose a critical term at the time of purchase.


The language there doesn't negate the possibility that they may have full intention of having us sign an NDA.If that's the case, the language also doesn't negate the possibility of an infinite number of additional conditions. It doesn't negate the possibility that -- to offer a ridiculous example -- you may be asked to dance a jig in front of Jim Plant before being allowed access to beta versions of Lightwave CORE, but it's hardly reasonable to insist that such a customer would be getting what he paid for if he didn't want to dance.

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 09:05 PM
Well in that case then, I hope they give us a choice between dancing a jig and signing the NDA. I'll take the NDA.

Auger
02-06-2009, 09:06 PM
Whats the problem? If you are participating in a beta program, you're going to be under an NDA. This is standard for any developer as they dont want competitors to get details of whats being developed.


As it's an open BETA, any developer could just buy a seat and find out what's going on.

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 09:13 PM
True, there are legal and ethical issues at that point. AD, for instance wont buy a seat of LW for that, but an employee could..but get this..they'd still be under the NDA, and as such could bring a suit against them, and possibly their employer if NT were to find out that information from the beta was being passed on and possibly used. These things are taken very seriously..and despite AD being an evil empire, they will endeavor to honor that..if only to avoid the legal problems.

Philbert
02-06-2009, 09:22 PM
Would a NDA prevent you from being able to post any work you do in Core?

This is a good question. I have a feeling you can, but of course can't say for sure. I'm thinking this because the earliest OB had a very strict NDA where you could not show any renders or even say that you were testing (So I'm told ;) ). Then later it was not only allowed, but encouraged to show renders that were done with the beta, which would of course also mean admitting you were a tester.

Philbert
02-06-2009, 09:26 PM
These things are taken very seriously..and despite AD being an evil empire, they will endeavor to honor that..if only to avoid the legal problems.

Haha Can you imagine how bad it would look for them too, if the almighty AD had to sneak around and spy and steal from little insignificant NewTek?

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 09:32 PM
Hehe..yeah, would be funny. But I can tell you that they are watching to see what Core is....despite the 'reveal' being as unclimactic as the ending of Indiana Jones-4, nearly everyone in the cg world was watching (at least until they got bored of looking at the blank countdown..hehe).

GandB
02-06-2009, 09:35 PM
Whats the problem? If you are participating in a beta program, you're going to be under an NDA. This is standard for any developer as they dont want competitors to get details of whats being developed.
The Beta program I participated (and am still a part of) in, with Caligari TrueSpace 7.x didn't require that I purchase the program; I was invited to join. I'd like to say more; but I don't want to violate the NDA that I'm still under.


...if NT were to find out that information from the beta was being passed on and possibly used.

The point is relevant that Autodesk (or any other competitor for that matter) could, in fact, get ahold of it for their own purposes. That's a big "if" and hard to prove. It happens all the time in business. I certainly wouldn't want to be limited with something I paid for. Beta Testers are often looked at as people who should feel priviledged to be "in" on the inside...when, in fact, it is the developers who should feel grateful to have people helping with the QA department for free. In NT's case (if the NDA thing is true); not only are people giving them valuable feedback and direction...but they'll pay to do it.

Caligari had a membership scheme similar to this with TrueSpace when version 7 came out. You paid $1,000/year and had access to "special forums", all the "for-pay" tutorial series...as well as free upgrades to TrueSpace as long as your membership lasted. Towards the end you also got the chance to test out the newest TrueSpace (under NDA)...but you still had a version to use that wasn't under NDA. Of course, a few were pretty disgruntled when TS became free entirely (that puts it mildly in some cases).

As I said; the question is definately relevant...but it's not worth getting worked up over till NT comes out with a definitive answer (though it should have been clarified before anyone put down any money).

-Keith

Silkrooster
02-06-2009, 09:38 PM
Would a NDA prevent you from being able to post any work you do in Core?

This was mentioned when version 9 came out. You can post your work, but you can not describe how you did it (assuming you used any new features)or that you used core. That includes no screen grabs. Where the problem may lay is showing a feature that is only part of core. For example in version 9 hair and fur were introduced. So hair and fur could not be shown in public.(to my knowledge)
I am sure when the time comes we will be able to read about what we can and can not disclose.
Silk

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 09:41 PM
Well, one way to look at it is that you are paying the current upgrade price ($395) for Core before the price goes up to $495/$695.

Even if I were to not be part of the beta program, that makes sense to me. I would be upgrading to Core most likely anyway, so why not save a few bucks :)

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 09:42 PM
Yeah, and certainly no disclothing yourself in public

GandB
02-06-2009, 09:44 PM
But then we come full-circle to the "I would like to see more videos and screenshots before purchasing" arguement......full circle I tell you!!

.....and you don't...want...that! :neener:

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 09:51 PM
Im sure that as Core gets closer to a full release they will begin to lift restrictions on posting just as they did prior to 9.5...they have to keep a certain amount of secrecy about what they're doing, until they deem it no longer required.

Of course, as for more vids immediately...they did say they would be divulging more prior to 03-31, but I for one can understand that there is just some stuff they cant show over open channels.

The first few months of the beta will be the hardest for not only NT, but the users, who can only respond to Core qeustions with the phrase 'It's freakin cool, too bad thats all I can say' hehe

Auger
02-06-2009, 10:09 PM
True, there are legal and ethical issues at that point. AD, for instance wont buy a seat of LW for that, but an employee could..but get this..they'd still be under the NDA, and as such could bring a suit against them, and possibly their employer if NT were to find out that information from the beta was being passed on and possibly used. These things are taken very seriously..and despite AD being an evil empire, they will endeavor to honor that..if only to avoid the legal problems.

Good point...a competitor could get in major trouble if they decided to steal some tech...and got caught.

Dexter2999
02-06-2009, 11:23 PM
funny stuff

"exclusive of" vs. "exclusive to" of course, they mean exact opposite don't they?

"failed to disclose critical information at time of purchase"

They don't have to tell you diddly before you buy. They can put every word of it in that little tick box for "I have read and agree to the terms and conditions..."

And what you purchase is the final release, this is not the final release. This is a pre-order with access to a beta. There will be warnings about how this is not a final release and they are free from recrimination should you try to use this program for profit and makes you look like an @$$ when it goes t!ts up.

People are so wound up about this. Pre-Order. Beta. Relax already people. It ain't rocket surgery.

Adrian Lopez
02-06-2009, 11:41 PM
"exclusive of" vs. "exclusive to" of course, they mean exact opposite don't they?The word means exactly what it's supposed to mean in its proper context. Perhaps you need to re-read my post? Here's a hint: exclusive to HardCORE members means exclusive of non-members... which is exactly how I used the word.


They don't have to tell you diddly before you buy.That's debatable, but once they do say something whatever they leave out makes a big difference. Newtek's CORE page makes it clear that access to the beta is a HardCORE benefit, and it specifies no other conditions for such access. A reasonable person not familiar with Newtek's previous betas would assume that membership is the only condition.


They can put every word of it in that little tick box for "I have read and agree to the terms and conditions..." They didn't.


And what you purchase is the final release, this is not the final release.No. What you purchase is what's listed on Newtek's website. They're not selling this as "the final release", they're selling this as the HardCORE membership program, which includes "Exclusive access to ongoing builds of LightWave CORE™".

Dexter2999
02-06-2009, 11:57 PM
Let's look at what you yourself pointed out.

You are buying "HardCORE membership" "which includes 'Exclusive access to on going builds..'"

Hmm...according to that you aren't buying software are you? You are buying access to software...and a T-shirt. So, you don't own the Beta. You will own the final release once it exits the Beta program.

And have you installed the Beta for CORE yet? Because the NDA can be in the "Terms and Conditions" clause of the install. I note you said "They didn't" which points to you having already read the aforementioned "Terms and Conditions" clause.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 12:10 AM
Hmm...according to that you aren't buying software are you? You are buying access to software...and a T-shirt. So, you don't own the Beta. You will own the final release once it exits the Beta program.You're not listening. Lightwave's CORE page says you get access to the beta but specifies no other conditions. That's what's at issue here, not whether you own this or that version of Lightwave.


And have you installed the Beta for CORE yet? Because the NDA can be in the "Terms and Conditions" clause of the install. I note you said "They didn't" which points to you having already read the aforementioned "Terms and Conditions" clause.I'm not a HardCORE member. I assumed you were talking about something you and others who have paid for a HardCORE membership saw yourselves. Since everybody's wondering whether an NDA will be required and nobody's giving a definitive answer, I presume that nobody has yet to sign an NDA. Perhaps I should have said "they haven't" instead of "they didn't".

The point remains: it's not okay to take a customer's money under one particular set of terms and then change those terms after the fact.

Silkrooster
02-07-2009, 12:24 AM
The point remains: it's not okay to take a customer's money under one particular set of terms and then change those terms after the fact.
The NDA for the beta has nothing what so ever to do with the Hardcore membership.
The money that you would be paying is to own the core in the 4th quarter. As a convenience they are giving you access to the beta builds while you wait for the final to be ready.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 12:26 AM
The NDA for the beta has nothing what so ever to do with the Hardcore membership.
The money that you would be paying is to own the core in the 4th quarterWrong. Please take a look at the Lightwave CORE (http://www.newtek.com/core/) page for a look at exactly what it is you are paying for.

Dexter2999
02-07-2009, 12:31 AM
You also presume anyone will actually read the "Terms and Conditions". Whereas I presume they will be so anxious to get it running they will just be clicking away at every prompt they see until the application is up and running. People could be agreeing to anything. (I seem to remember a clause in the Adobe T&C where they tried to lay claim to any works created with their products.)

Really, I think you are just over thinking this.
If you pay, you get membership and access.
If you don't pay, you don't.
Every Beta NewTek has had in recent years has been bound by a NDA. This points to precedent. So, precedent indicates an NDA, and they have made no announcement to the contrary for this release.

If the NDA is a check box on the download and choose not to accept, and request a refund. I am sure the will return your money. I can almost promise you they would be shaking their head as they do so, but they would.

geothefaust
02-07-2009, 12:42 AM
Adrian, I've been reading your complaints, and I've been trying to follow them up. Frankly though, I don't see where any of your arguments hold water, other then it's your personal preference to not sign an NDA. That's fine and dandy, you can safely assume that there will be a NDA, just like there was for the whole run of the open beta for LW 9.x.

Whichs brings up the question; Did you partake in the open beta for LW 9.x?

Really, what it boils down to is whether or not you want to save a couple hundred bucks for the pre-order or not. You don't actually have to partake in the HardCORE stuff at all if you don't want to. But at least, for gods (plural!) sakes man, if you plan on buying it at some point, at least buy it now and save yourself some money!

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 12:48 AM
Whichs brings up the question; Did you partake in the open beta for LW 9.x?Nope.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 12:50 AM
I'm not getting what the problem is here. There is currently no NDA to sign because as of this time there is no beta to use. When/If you join the beta program, you will most likely have to sign an NDA. Beyond that, if you buy now and opt out of the beta, then you are buying now to save some money...you can wait if you want, there's nothing wrong with that.

If you read the Core page, you will also notice that no where in the page does it mention access to the beta program, as that would be a different thing....However for the sake of the upcoming Q1 release, the beta is what most are assuming.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 12:56 AM
I'm not getting what the problem is here. There is currently no NDA to sign because as of this time there is no beta to use. When/If you join the beta program, you will most likely have to sign an NDA. Beyond that, if you buy now and opt out of the beta, then you are buying now to save some money...you can wait if you want, there's nothing wrong with that.It's quite simple. Although I'd prefer no NDA, if Newtek is to insist on an NDA they should make that clear on the list of HardCORE program benefits. That's all.


If you read the Core page, you will also notice that no where in the page does it mention access to the beta program, as that would be a different thing....However for the sake of the upcoming Q1 release, the beta is what most are assuming.I'm not sure what difference that would make, but the page mentions access to ongoing builds of the software. To me, that implies access to beta versions.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 01:16 AM
Again, until they start the open beta program, there is no need for an NDA..and that is something you would sign when go to download the program

geothefaust
02-07-2009, 01:19 AM
Ah I see. So you just want to troll then. Well, so be it. But I wont be feeding this troll anymore. :)

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 01:19 AM
Again, until they start the open beta program, there is no need for an NDA..and that is something you would sign when go to download the program
You're missing the point. I'm saying customers should be informed of the NDA requirement before the HardCORE membership is paid for, not after. It's just a couple of extra words on the HardCORE benefits list.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 01:21 AM
Ah I see. So you just want to troll then.
Not at all. An honest interpretation of what I've said here would not lead to such a conclusion.

Besides, I don't see why you think I would ever have signed up for the Lightwave 9 beta if I oppose NDAs.

cagey5
02-07-2009, 01:27 AM
So this dancing a jig deal... Are Newtek providing the transport or do we have to find our own way there, because that sounds expensive.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 01:28 AM
So this dancing a jig deal... Are Newtek providing the transport or do we have to find our own way there, because that sounds expensive.
Webcam, perhaps?

cagey5
02-07-2009, 01:34 AM
Cool, I'm in. ;)

Dexter2999
02-07-2009, 01:38 AM
Cool, I'm in. ;)


uh, Cagey, WEBCAM does not mean "pants optional"

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 01:42 AM
lol

geothefaust
02-07-2009, 01:52 AM
Cool, I'm in. ;)

Hey Cagey, your avatar kind of reminds me of Salad Fingers... :) You ever check that out?

cagey5
02-07-2009, 01:56 AM
Can't say I've ever even heard of it. I pinched it from 'The Mighty Boosh' check it out if you like your comedy surreal. And it means I can get a T shirt with my avatar on it. Good for if I ever go to a Newtek group meeting. At least they'd recognise me :)

http://themightybooshstore.trinitystreetdirect.com/store/page4.asp?suptype=1&t=1&sub_type=1&prod_id=43&col=30


edit: Just found salad spoons on Youtube. That's pretty off the wall too, lol. I don't have sound here so I'll check more later..

geothefaust
02-07-2009, 02:29 AM
Hey thanks! I'll check that out. :)

Nice, Salad Fingers is really strange, me loves it long time! Here is a direct link to the creators site with the cartoons.

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/search/?q=salad+fingers&x=0&y=0

That should be all 5 of the Salad Fingers action.


Can't say I've ever even heard of it. I pinched it from 'The Mighty Boosh' check it out if you like your comedy surreal. And it means I can get a T shirt with my avatar on it. Good for if I ever go to a Newtek group meeting. At least they'd recognise me :)

http://themightybooshstore.trinitystreetdirect.com/store/page4.asp?suptype=1&t=1&sub_type=1&prod_id=43&col=30


edit: Just found salad spoons on Youtube. That's pretty off the wall too, lol. I don't have sound here so I'll check more later..

cagey5
02-07-2009, 02:33 AM
uh, Cagey, WEBCAM does not mean "pants optional"

The mind boggles at the very thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOQIMOcEVc4

Silkrooster
02-07-2009, 02:39 AM
Wrong. Please take a look at the Lightwave CORE (http://www.newtek.com/core/) page for a look at exactly what it is you are paying for.
No I am not wrong. That is an added benefit. I have been in their beta before. I know what I am talking about unlike some.


You're missing the point. I'm saying customers should be informed of the NDA requirement before the HardCORE membership is paid for, not after. It's just a couple of extra words on the HardCORE benefits list.
Who said that there will be an NDA. You are assuming that there will be and maybe there will. But until they announce that you have no grounds for your argument.
If you don't want it then leave it alone. No one is forcing you to do anything.
Nuff said...

Nemoid
02-07-2009, 02:46 AM
You pay for a membership for hardcore, get the application in beta status and have a separated forum for it, differently from who doesn't subscribe.
This indicates me its a sort of payed open beta with NDA.

I think also that Nt will deliver information from time to time about the Core development to non hardCORE users.

digefxgrp
02-07-2009, 02:56 AM
People are so wound up about this. Pre-Order. Beta. Relax already people. It ain't rocket surgery.Exactly. Too many people are dumbifying over nothing. They need to brainificate more.:screwy:

hrgiger
02-07-2009, 03:54 AM
I'm going to laugh if there's an NDA.

colkai
02-07-2009, 05:03 AM
To be honest, I'd be surprised if there wasn't an NDA.
Think about it, the Open Beta had NDA, Hardcore basically represents a closed Beta.
You're taking part in forming the software, this isn't just reporting bugs folks, trust me, Newtek will be listening a lot closer to what Hardcore members say (please change that name ...ugh).

The software is going to be developed with input from HC members, you'll be seeing things Joe Public won't, any developer wouldn't want it made public.

Don't forget also, there will be bugs, oh yes, they will come and go in various builds, Newtek wouldn't want folks whining about a bug in a piece of software that is still being written. Don't forget, that bug will attacked, it isn't a "final" bit of software you're buying, you may use it, but it's a work in progress. Kinda like living in a house before you've re-wired, re-plumed and re-decorated. You wouldn't want folks passing comment on the state of your decor when you hadn't started on that room yet would ya? ;)

NDA may not be thrilling for you, but it is a fact of life, if anyone feels unhappy about being under it, you could always give me your copy of CORE hehe.... :D (Like that's gonna happen!)

frantbk
02-07-2009, 07:10 AM
Whats the problem? If you are participating in a beta program, you're going to be under an NDA. This is standard for any developer as they dont want competitors to get details of whats being developed.

If you dont want to participate in the beta, you dont have to..it's just one of the perks of being in the HardCore program. Of course, you also wont be able to preview Core or assist in crushing bugs....But, you still get the final s/w when it ships.

The difference is you're paying to be part of this beta program. Think if this membership as client/customer would you pay money and then work out the agreement? Your whole membership agreement is non-binding and leaves you open to zero rights of delivery of any product, and also gives NewTek all rights to redefine the membership. Your buying into an unregulated membership, and where is a contract agreement from NewTek? Stupid is as Stupid does - it is your job to protect you money, not NewTek.

Philbert
02-07-2009, 09:08 AM
The difference is you're paying to be part of this beta program.

I still don't see it that way. If you buy a pack of baseball cards with a stick of gum inside would you say you're buying gum?

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 09:26 AM
No I am not wrong. That is an added benefit.No. It's an advertised benefit, listed as an integral part of HardCORE membership. It's not a freebie, it's a feature.


If you don't want it then leave it alone.
Has anything I said led you to believe I would do otherwise?

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 09:33 AM
You pay for a membership for hardcore, get the application in beta status and have a separated forum for it, differently from who doesn't subscribe.
This indicates me its a sort of payed open beta with NDA.Though Newtek's past attitude toward open betas definitely indicates the possibility of an NDA, the fact that only HardCORE members get access to ongoing builds and CORE forums suggests not an NDA, but an exclusive benefit of joining the HardCORE program. After all, one of the listed benefits is an "exclusive LightWave CORE™ t-shirt", but I'm reasonably certain there's no NDA attached to that.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 09:39 AM
I still don't see it that way. If you buy a pack of baseball cards with a stick of gum inside would you say you're buying gum?If it says on the wrapper that you're getting a piece of gum, that means you're buying cards and gum. You may not personally think the gum is as important as the cards, but that doesn't change the fact that you're being sold both cards and gum.

wfstecko
02-07-2009, 09:45 AM
It seems to me that anyone, even NewTek's competitors, could buy a hardcore membership if they chose. I didn't notice any screening process when I signed up. In fact, the competition would be extremely negligent if they didn't keep tabs on Core's progress, and I'm sure NewTek is expecting this. A NDA would be pointless.

I really doubt they will reveal anything to Hardcore subscribers that could compromise their position in the marketplace, and they will not reveal trade secrets to us.

W

Myagi
02-07-2009, 09:52 AM
forgive my linguistic and semantic ignorance... but couldn't you argue that it doesn't specify what you're getting in either direction. It doesn't say you're getting unrestricted exclusive access, nor does it say restricted exclusive access, it just says you're getting exclusive access but not what type of exclusive access. In which case you can't assume one thing or the other, so you haven't been misled.

And if you're saying that if nothing is specified explicitly, you can assume what's reasonbale, like it's reasonable to assume no NDA for a t-shirt. In that case you must have assumed that it's reasonable for beta software to have an NDA, because that's quite common even if not all do it. And we still don't know if there will be one.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 10:08 AM
It doesn't say you're getting unrestricted exclusive access, nor does it say restricted exclusive access, it just says you're getting exclusive access but not what type of exclusive access.Judging by the context in which the word is used, "exclusive" clearly means exclusive to HardCORE members. The fact that the use of the word "exclusive" is unqualified makes it a totally different statement than the qualified "restricted exclusive access", which they don't say.


And if you're saying that if nothing is specified explicitly, you can assume what's reasonbale, like it's reasonable to assume no NDA for a t-shirt. In that case you must have assumed that it's reasonable for beta software to have an NDA, because that's quite common even if not all do it. And we still don't know if there will be one.The fact that beta doesn't necessarily imply NDA coupled with the identical use of the word "exclusive" in the case of the t-shirt means Newtek's advertisement does not in any way suggest an NDA.

cagey5
02-07-2009, 10:42 AM
Seems everyone is going to stick to their entrenched views so there's little point in continuing the arguing. Newtek will ultimately decide what their stance is and all those unhappy with it at that point can take up their concerns directly.

Personally I have no problem with an NDA, I expect it to be part of the process. But time will tell.

geothefaust
02-07-2009, 12:28 PM
The mind boggles at the very thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOQIMOcEVc4

Man that was funny, what is that from?


Hey I just checked out an episode of The Might Boosh... It freakin' rules!! Thanks for letting me know about it.

I watched the episode "Power of the Crimp", that was awesome! It was cool to see a cameo by Gary Numan too, haha. Nice!

cagey5
02-07-2009, 12:50 PM
It was a BBC series called 'Alan Partridge:Knowing me knowing you' which was brilliant. Send up of a useless regional presenter who managed to briefly punch above his weight and land his own chat show before crashing back to earth as he made a complete t*t of himself. Played by Steve Coogan.

If you get the chance watch the DVD of the Boosh live gig, that was brilliant too.

geothefaust
02-07-2009, 12:53 PM
Thanks. :D

I will check it out, I'm trying to find more episodes online of Boosh, but it looks like I'll have to rent the DVDs! What a killer show, way up my alley. Just finished "Journey to the Center of the Punk", awesome!

Ivan D. Young
02-07-2009, 12:59 PM
I don't think there is any question that this whole process will be under NDA, the last one was. Why is that hard to understand, when you download LWC, most likely you will get a prompt for your NDA rules, or a EULA. Hopefully you may have seen one of those before.
As far as the competition getting into the Beta, I am not completely sure that they do not want that to happen. At the moment, any news about your app is better than no news. The more folks that use it, are the more folks that will talk about it, even if it is the competition.

So to sum this up: Yes on a NDA or EULA, yes on the competiton proably sneaking in. And probably yes on a bunch of haters getting in and constantly complaining about Core Development. AS the 9.x series beta went on, the haters got shutdown a lot of the time, so no worries.

frantbk
02-07-2009, 01:14 PM
I still don't see it that way. If you buy a pack of baseball cards with a stick of gum inside would you say you're buying gum?

That is the silliest statement I've heard today :eek: You're equating a pack of gum with baseball cards to a $495.00 membership? :twak: there is no commonsense in what you are saying.

Those of you who have bought into this membership had better have some kind of paper trail of what you are to receive from NewTek. If you don't have that NewTek can change the conditions of your membership on the fly and you have nothing to protect your investment from their changes. What I'm telling you is that you need to have something in writing that states what you expect to receive for your investment in this membership. If NewTek is really intending to have a long term program then NewTek shouldn't have any problem with supplying that information. On the other hand, if NewTek doesn't like the idea of having anything in writing - then I would say run the other way, away from this membership because it will probably end up as a screw job.

If NewTek is really interested in a membership system, then there shouldn't be any problem with documentation of your expectations of membership. :beerchug:

cresshead
02-07-2009, 01:21 PM
at least get the cost correct!

LightWave v9 owners may join for a
limited time at the charter
membership price of US$395
through March 31, 2009.

...$395... [the dots are not clues btw]

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 01:38 PM
Why is that hard to understand, when you download LWC, most likely you will get a prompt for your NDA rules, or a EULA.Why is it so hard to understand that the issue here is being promised one thing (access to ongoing builds) and -- if it turns out the NDA requirement is real -- being delivered something else (no access to ongoing builds unless you first sign an NDA that was never mentioned at the time they took your money)?

Philbert
02-07-2009, 01:48 PM
That is the silliest statement I've heard today :eek: You're equating a pack of gum with baseball cards to a $495.00 membership? :twak: there is no commonsense in what you are saying.

Sure it makes sense. The same also goes for buying a Maserati which comes with an air freshener. Regardless of the price, $5.00 or $50,000 you're buying one thing and it comes with something else.

colkai
02-07-2009, 02:14 PM
- Private community area with forums for interaction with one another and the LightWave CORE development team.

Right there, I think Megalodon has answered the question, private == NDA.

Ernest
02-07-2009, 02:20 PM
I really believe that all software should display the license agreement before you purchase. By the time you can actually read the license agreement, the software is already open and, in most cases, you cannot take it back.

Now then, all software comes with a license agreement that can say anything from "you're free to do anything with this program" to "you have to dance with a goat in the moonlight every time you open the program."

For some reason, software companies are not forced to say that there is a license agreement that you have to comply with before you can run the program that you've already purchased. I wish they had to. And I wish that we could read and agree to the license before purchasing. However, since this is true of every single software program that i know, it's more something to complain to your congressman about than to any particular software company.

If Newtek puts in the license agreement that you have to agree to an NDA before using the program, well, at least we wouldn't have to buy a goat.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 02:31 PM
Right there, I think Megalodon has answered the question, private == NDA.
That's a rather creative interpretation of the text Megalodon cited. Newtek is saying you get access to a "private community area", as in nobody else has access to the community area -- as in "private golf club". It says nothing about access to CORE betas being subject to a non-disclosure agreement.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 02:32 PM
Product Description:
HardCORE, LightWave CORE membership program. Join and be the first to access LightWave CORE software builds, along with many other benefits:

- Special pricing.

- Copy of annual Q4 product release.

- Continued updates to LightWave v9.

- First to receive the Cocoa version of LightWave.

- Private community area with forums for interaction with one another and the LightWave CORE development team.

- Exclusive development presentations and updates.

- LightWave CORE training videos.

- VIP invitations to special events.

- Personalized membership card.

- Exclusive LightWave CORE t-shirt.

You left out the first term: "Exclusive access to ongoing builds of LightWave CORE™"

Dexter2999
02-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Adrian you just want to hear what you want to hear.

Is there mention of an NDA? No.
Is there mention of BETA? No. I'm not asking how you interpret the phrase "ongoing builds". Do you see the word BETA anywhere in the announcement?

Does anyone with common sense who presumes/assumes BETA availability also presume/assume an NDA? Yes, because that is the pattern NewTek has established in previous BETA participation programs.

Seriously, you are "cherry picking" which things you presume and which things are literal.

hrgiger
02-07-2009, 02:51 PM
You left out the first term: "Exclusive access to ongoing builds of LightWave CORE™"

Which implies nothing about having or not having an NDA. Are we still having this discussion?

I'll wait until I hear from Newtek. Until then, it's my solid belief that we will be under NDA. And I hope we are. Just because it seems to bother some people for some silly reason.

JMCarrigan
02-07-2009, 03:04 PM
... I'll wait until I hear from Newtek. Until then, it's my solid belief that we will be under NDA. And I hope we are. Just because it seems to bother some people for some silly reason.

THAT, hrgiger, I understand. My wife's always trying to get people to like her, and she's confounded when she believes I pissed someone off. I always say that if I'm responsible for my feelings, they're responsible for theirs. If they're pissed off, then they need to be pissed off and I've accidentally done my job (purposely at times :D)

The end lesson can be stated in many ways: One is: Be pissed off until I realize there was nuttin' to be pissed off about in the 1st place.

Mike_RB
02-07-2009, 03:11 PM
I hope it is not under any NDA. It will really do no good for Newtek as anyone with a LW lic will be able to get 'in' for 395, and with that many people (very good for newtek) it's not like the info wont get out and about anyhow. All it will do is keep the buzz behind closed doors.

Limiting write access and even read access to the core forum makes sense. The noise to signal ratio will be rough anyway. But not being able to answer questions and show stuff off elsewhere doesn't make sense. You might as well have the legitimate users answering these questions rather than the less savory users of unlicensed software doing it.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 03:21 PM
Adrian you just want to hear what you want to hear.Funny. I was thinking the same thing about you.


Is there mention of an NDA? No.Wait. That is my point.


Is there mention of BETA? No.If we go by your interpretation that access to ongoing builds isn't the same as access to beta versions, you can no longer rely on the argument below that Newtek's previous betas have been released under NDA. Under your "ongoing builds doesn't mean beta" interpretation, there is even less reason to expect that Newtek's advertisement implies an NDA.


Does anyone with common sense who presumes/assumes BETA availability also presume/assume an NDA? Yes, because that is the pattern NewTek has established in previous BETA participation programs.See above.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 03:26 PM
Which implies nothing about having or not having an NDA. Are we still having this discussion?Apparently, we are, because you all keep conveniently ignoring the basic point: the HardCORE benefits page indeed says nothing about an NDA, so an NDA requirement becomes an additional, previously undisclosed condition -- a material term that's not being disclosed at the time of purchase. By failing to disclose the NDA requirement, Newtek is misrepresenting the nature of HardCORE membership.


I'll wait until I hear from Newtek.
I want to hear from them as well, and if there is to be an NDA then I want them to acknowledge that on the list of HardCORE benefits.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 03:30 PM
I really believe that all software should display the license agreement before you purchase. By the time you can actually read the license agreement, the software is already open and, in most cases, you cannot take it back.

If Newtek puts in the license agreement that you have to agree to an NDA before using the program, well, at least we wouldn't have to buy a goat.

For a beta that is under and NDA, there will be a page that you read and sign before agreeing to join the program.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 03:34 PM
I hope it is not under any NDA. It will really do no good for Newtek as anyone with a LW lic will be able to get 'in' for 395, and with that many people (very good for newtek) it's not like the info wont get out and about anyhow. All it will do is keep the buzz behind closed doors.

Limiting write access and even read access to the core forum makes sense. The noise to signal ratio will be rough anyway. But not being able to answer questions and show stuff off elsewhere doesn't make sense. You might as well have the legitimate users answering these questions rather than the less savory users of unlicensed software doing it.

Anyone who's involved in any kinda beta program should know that there is always and NDA..hehe

Given that Core is a completely new product with new stuff, it makes sense that at the beginning they will not want anyone to leak out info on whats going on....but as with 9.x beta cycle, they did loosen up a little and allow images and such to be posted publicly, although no details were allowed to be given..but that will not be immediate.

Mike_RB
02-07-2009, 03:43 PM
it makes sense that at the beginning they will not want anyone to leak out info on whats going on...

You really think that if someone wanted to know what was going on bad enough they wouldn't just pay to get 'in' or get it skip that and get it from a torrent site? It's not going to keep your competitors who may really want to know from knowing whats going on, so who are you trying to keep in the dark? At most you'll ding your competitors $395 for access to the forums and builds, it wont keep them from knowing anything...

This of course applies to public betas where anyone can buy in. An NDA doesn't do anything really.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 04:08 PM
C'mon..bringing piracy into the argument isn't a valid one.

The NDA is an effort for them to protect their development.

If you were developing a peice of s/w that your livelyhood relied on, would you just give out the prototypes to beta testers and say 'here, share it with everyone'? I think not..You would want to keep whatever new features, Innovations, etc under wraps until you were ready to go public with the program.

An NDA does alot, even for public beta...If you were to join the beta program, and it became evident that you were leaking information, then NewTek would be within their rights to not only cut you from the program but bring a lawsuit against you.

But again, if you were familiar with how things worked, you'd know that a competitor is not going engage in those kinds of activities because they have to protect their own company..which could be destroyed if they were brought into a lawsuit reguarding using stolen ideas/tech.

Silkrooster
02-07-2009, 04:09 PM
I think some of those that are looking at the benefits for whats included in the price, either do not own lightwave yet or use to own and are leary of the program.
I am going to reword what I said, hopefully it will make more sense. The reason why I am rewording is I am coming to the conclusion that some new users think the beta might be free.
In order to be part of the beta team you must pre-order the core which will be out in the 4th quarter of this year, assuming things go to plan. The cost of core has dramatically gone down. Therefore paying the upgrade fee is extremely attractive on its own merit. Those of us that are upgrading see all the other benefits as bonuses. Which was why I was so admittedly arguing the point of the NDA being petty.
If i misled anyone I apologize.

hrgiger
02-07-2009, 04:57 PM
I hope it is not under any NDA. It will really do no good for Newtek as anyone with a LW lic will be able to get 'in' for 395, and with that many people (very good for newtek) it's not like the info wont get out and about anyhow. All it will do is keep the buzz behind closed doors.



I would assume that Newtek will want to be in charge of what information is disclosed. Letting anybody with $395 and an internet connection are not very good prerequisites for letting people answer questions about the software you are trying to sell. Newtek has promised to reveal more about Core in the coming weeks so I'm guessing that they'll be the ones doing it, and not beta testers. We've never had any real significant problems with a lot of information flow getting out of the 9.x beta program and spread, so that can continue with Core.

Mike_RB
02-07-2009, 05:18 PM
I would assume that Newtek will want to be in charge of what information is disclosed. Letting anybody with $395 and an internet connection are not very good prerequisites for letting people answer questions about the software you are trying to sell. Newtek has promised to reveal more about Core in the coming weeks so I'm guessing that they'll be the ones doing it, and not beta testers. We've never had any real significant problems with a lot of information flow getting out of the 9.x beta program and spread, so that can continue with Core.

true, but 9.5x is a little different than something brand new.

Auger
02-07-2009, 05:35 PM
true, but 9.5x is a little different than something brand new.

:agree: The competition probably didn't care too much about the 9.5 series. Now they just may...

Hopper
02-07-2009, 06:10 PM
I have never heard of buying something THEN being told, oh by the way....

Well, I mighta heard of that, but it was in a nightmare.:D
Didn't Adobe do that once ... They packaged their EULA "inside" the packaging, so by the time you were able to read it, it was too late.

Mike_RB
02-07-2009, 06:25 PM
If you were developing a peice of s/w that your livelyhood relied on, would you just give out the prototypes to beta testers and say 'here, share it with everyone'? I think not..

I wouldn't have a buy in beta until I was ready for people to start talking about it. It would be closed and selective until that point.

Hopper
02-07-2009, 06:30 PM
You're missing the point. I'm saying customers should be informed of the NDA requirement before the HardCORE membership is paid for, not after. It's just a couple of extra words on the HardCORE benefits list.
Not really. When was the last time you purchased off-the-shelf software and were able to open the box and read the Terms of Use and EULA agreement before you went to the counter to purchase it? Let me answer that... Never.

If you get home and for some reason totally disagree with the terms of use, you can return the product if you haven't opened the CD packaging.

I would imagine that NT would honor a similar agreement that if you totally disagree'd with the NDA and thought you just couldn't deal with it, they may arrange to give you your money back, thus you would have to pay additional monies later if you chose to purchase the full version.

I actually read the entire thread and am still not even sure what the point of contention is here other than "pay first - read NDA later", which is no different than purchassing any other software. this is NOT an open Beta, so you kind of have to use common sense here. I have never been in/or heard of a closed beta program without an NDA, and I've been in tons of them. Hell, the Windows 2003 Server Alpha program had a 78 page NDA we had to sign before using. And yes, we actually paid for it, THEN got the NDA with the software.

I'm sure the NDA will come with the first release of the Beta just as hrgiger mentioned. And in all reality, who the F cares anyway. Not trying to be beligerent or anything, but your posts are pretty sophomoric.

GandB
02-07-2009, 07:29 PM
For a beta that is under and NDA, there will be a page that you read and sign before agreeing to join the program.
Since the beta is part of the package; you would have already paid for it, right?




Whats the problem? If you are participating in a beta program, you're going to be under an NDA. This is standard for any developer as they dont want competitors to get details of whats being developed.

The Beta program I participated (and am still a part of) in, with Caligari TrueSpace 7.x didn't require that I purchase the program; I was invited to join. I'd like to say more; but I don't want to violate the NDA that I'm still under.



...if NT were to find out that information from the beta was being passed on and possibly used.

The point is relevant that Autodesk (or any other competitor for that matter) could, in fact, get ahold of it for their own purposes. That's a big "if" and hard to prove. It happens all the time in business. I certainly wouldn't want to be limited with something I paid for. Beta Testers are often looked at as people who should feel priviledged to be "in" on the inside...when, in fact, it is the developers who should feel grateful to have people helping with the QA department for free. In NT's case (if the NDA thing is true); not only are people giving them valuable feedback and direction...but they'll pay to do it.

Caligari had a membership scheme similar to this with TrueSpace when version 7 came out. You paid $1,000/year and had access to "special forums", all the "for-pay" tutorial series...as well as free upgrades to TrueSpace as long as your membership lasted. Towards the end you also got the chance to test out the newest TrueSpace (under NDA)...but you still had a version to use that wasn't under NDA. Of course, a few were pretty disgruntled when TS became free entirely (that puts it mildly in some cases).

As I said; the question is definately relevant...but it's not worth getting worked up over till NT comes out with a definitive answer (though it should have been clarified before anyone put down any money).

-Keith

Just to reiterate.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 07:33 PM
You are not buying into the beta program...You are buying the upgrade to Core.

Hopper
02-07-2009, 07:36 PM
Since the beta is part of the package; you would have already paid for it, right?I think the point has been belabored enough...

Let's put it this way. You are NOT paying for the beta. Let's get that straight. You are paying for a discount on your LWX upgrade (i.e. final version) that just "happens" to give you the benefit of participating in the beta if you so choose.

This is really not a difficult concept to grasp folks. It's all there in the CORE page.

EDIT: dammit lwanmtr, you type too fast.. :p

Ivan D. Young
02-07-2009, 07:41 PM
Now I know why Jin was put on time out, hey how long does timeout last? I can feel one coming on, haha!:devil:

frantbk
02-07-2009, 07:47 PM
Sure it makes sense. The same also goes for buying a Maserati which comes with an air freshener. Regardless of the price, $5.00 or $50,000 you're buying one thing and it comes with something else.

Nothing your saying makes any sense. :bangwall: have an nice weekend.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 07:49 PM
Stop Hopping so much and you'd get more done :D

frantbk
02-07-2009, 07:54 PM
Product Description:
HardCORE, LightWave CORE membership program. Join and be the first to access LightWave CORE software builds, along with many other benefits:
- Special pricing.
- Copy of annual Q4 product release.
- Continued updates to LightWave v9.
- First to receive the Cocoa version of LightWave.
- Private community area with forums for interaction with one another and the LightWave CORE development team.
- Exclusive development presentations and updates.
- LightWave CORE training videos.
- VIP invitations to special events.
- Personalized membership card.
- Exclusive LightWave CORE t-shirt.

Where does it say this is a binding contract, and where is the part about the duration of all of this wonderful stuff? Also where does it say time farme for delivery of all this wonderful stuff? for all you know they only have to deliver your card, t-shirt, coca verison and private invitations when they send you a copy of annual Q4 product release.

If lighteave core is delivered at the 4th quarter of 09 why do you need continual updates to Lightwave 9.x? Unless the 4th Quarter delivery date is subjective and NewTek doesn't believe they'll make that date. In the past all older versions have been free update to license users, so where is the advantage of that as a membership perk? :tsktsk:

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 07:54 PM
Not really. When was the last time you purchased off-the-shelf software and were able to open the box and read the Terms of Use and EULA agreement before you went to the counter to purchase it? Let me answer that... Never.The enforceability of EULAs is by no means absolute (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.ars). In fact, EULAs are what are known as "adhesion contracts", and they are typically held to a different standard than negotiated contracts. Some terms in EULAs may be valid, but having an NDA tucked away in a box does not in any way override the requirement for truth in advertising. If I am promised access to ongoing builds and no exceptions are listed, I should be granted access to ongoing builds without any further restrictions. If that's not what you're giving me, however, then make it clear before you take my money.

What I'm asking for is such a simple little change that I don't see why Newtek would object to including such a notice, unless perhaps they felt that by being upfront they'd get fewer people to buy into a HardCORE membership. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt, however, and expect it's just that they haven't had the time to fully develop their product page.


Not trying to be beligerent or anything, but your posts are pretty sophomoric.A very mature and sophisticated analysis on your part, no doubt.

GandB
02-07-2009, 07:54 PM
Let's put it this way. You are NOT paying for the beta. Let's get that straight. You are paying for a discount on your LWX upgrade (i.e. final version) that just "happens" to give you the benefit of participating in the beta if you so choose.
What are you talking about? Current owners of the latest build of Lightwave still have to pay $395. LWX is apparently in Beta....therefore you are paying for a Beta. Let's just say Beta or no...you are paying an established price (less $100) for an upgrade to the next version of Lightwave...and leave it at that. As lwanmtr said: "You are not buying into the beta program...You are buying the upgrade to Core."


Now I know why Jin was put on time out, hey how long does timeout last? I can feel one coming on, haha!
I hope that wasn't directed at me.

If I don't make enough sense; then I apologize, as we just had a 13 hour day trying to get part of our company ready to ship out to the desert.

-Keith

Earl
02-07-2009, 07:58 PM
While I'm perfectly cool with an NDA, it does seem kinda pointless with Core. I mean, the competition will no doubt see everything behind those "closed doors" as has been mentioned by others here. The only real thing they should do is post a disclaimer stating that features are subject to change. That way if a feature isn't ready for full release (but it's Q4 and they want to release for other reasons), then they can pull the faulty feature and wait until it's production ready.

I think most people realize that when they're using interim builds that there will be bugs that won't be in the final version.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 07:58 PM
You are not buying into the beta program...You are buying the upgrade to Core.
You folks are unbelievable. You just don't want to see, do you? Here's what the Lightwave CORE page actually says:


Gain early access to LightWave CORE™ through NewTek’s HardCORE™ membership program.

LightWave v9 owners may join for a limited time at the charter membership price of US$395 through March 31, 2009.

You're paying for a HardCORE membership, not for "the upgrade to Core". The upgrade to CORE is part of the HardCORE membership, but that's not the only thing you're purchasing.

Hopper
02-07-2009, 07:59 PM
What are you talking about? Current owners of the latest build of Lightwave still have to pay $395. LWX is apparently in Beta....therefore you are paying for a Beta. Let's just say Beta or no...you are paying an established price (less $100) for an upgrade to the next version of Lightwave...and leave it at that. As lwanmtr said: "You are not buying into the beta program...You are buying the upgrade to Core."

So you are agreeing with what lwanmtr stated but not what I stated? lol .. I said the same thing, but you agree with one, and not the other.

Yeah .. hang in there Jin, I'll be there shortly. I think you guys are just arguing to be arguing at this point.

Then ALL of us are right - Go make the choice to join or not. If you happen to be scared that Newtek might steal your money, then by all means .. stay out of it. If not, then come on in.

GandB
02-07-2009, 08:00 PM
So you are agreeing with what lwanmtr stated but not what I stated? lol .. I said the same thing, but you agree with one, but not the other.
Leave me alone; I'm tired and cranky (apparently).:D

I'm just going to hold on to my money until all these questions and concerns have been laid to rest...or at least the bulk of them. I should use the money to buy other things...like diapers and milk, etc. ;)

Hopper
02-07-2009, 08:03 PM
Leave me alone; I'm tired and cranky (apparently).:D

No worries man .. I had to go back and re-read what I posted to make sure I wasn't insane.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 08:04 PM
Where does it say this is a binding contract, and where is the part about the duration of all of this wonderful stuff? Also where does it say time farme for delivery of all this wonderful stuff? for all you know they only have to deliver your card, t-shirt, coca verison and private invitations when they send you a copy of annual Q4 product release.

If lighteave core is delivered at the 4th quarter of 09 why do you need continual updates to Lightwave 9.x? Unless the 4th Quarter delivery date is subjective and NewTek doesn't believe they'll make that date. In the past all older versions have been free update to license users, so where is the advantage of that as a membership perk? :tsktsk:

In the past major releases have been paid releases (4, 5, 6, all the way through 9.0). Point updates have been free.. 7.5, 8.5, 9.x... for thepast 3 years we've had it good because the guys at NT have been devloping Core in addition to 9.x..thus all LW-9 owners had 3 years of free updates..someof which added great features you'd only see in a major release.

They will continue to fix 9.x for stability, I'm sure..and considering that Core wont be out till the end of the year, alot people will be continuing to use 9.x. Even afet Core ships, there will be alot people who rely on both, until they are comfortable with Cre's workflow and stability..and if it fits their pipeline.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 08:04 PM
No worries man .. I had to go back and re-read what I posted to make sure I wasn't insane.

Hopper, you are...hehe

Hopper
02-07-2009, 08:08 PM
Hopper, you are...hehe
I'm beginning to wonder.. I mean seriously .. I just coughed up $395 without reading a Terms of Use or NDA ... holy COW!!! What was I thinking??!!?! Geez, I wonder if it's too late to take it back ... I'm sure they're just going to steal my money, close up shop, and retire off of it. Maybe they've been in business all these years so they could work themselves up for this one big scam... yeah .. yeah .. that's it...

I guess I'll be crying myself to sleep tonight... "Why me?? Why oh why?? Oh fantbk, why didn't I listen?? Why didn't I see it coming?? <sob..sniff sniff sob>"

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 08:19 PM
I'm beginning to wonder.. I mean seriously .. I just coughed up $395 without reading a Terms of Use or NDA ... holy COW!!! What was I thinking??!!?! Geez, I wonder if it's too late to take it back ... I'm sure they're just going to steal my money, close up shop, and retire off of it.Actually (no... seriously), Newtek is generally pretty good when it comes to its EULAs, and it's one of the reasons I originally chose Lightwave 7.5 instead of the competition. I recall the EULA for Maya (back when it was owned by Alias) used to prohibit moving the software more than 5,000 miles away from its original install location. Similarly, the 2008 license for AutoCAD prohibits use of the software outside of the territory in which it's purchased, prohibits resale (see the link I posted in my earlier reply to you), and enables Autodesk to perform -- possibly at your expense -- audits of all your computers and the software installed on them.

Perhaps if more people read EULAs before investing in a software package, fewer companies would try to pull off such abusive terms as the ones above.

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 08:23 PM
AD has also very strict about transferring licenses...so good luck selling Maya is you get bored with it

Hopper
02-07-2009, 08:23 PM
Actually (no... seriously), Newtek is generally pretty good when it comes to its EULAs, and it's one of the reasons I originally chose Lightwave 7.5 instead of the competition. I recall the EULA for Maya (back when it was owned by Alias) used to prohibit moving the software more than 5,000 miles away from its original install location. Similarly, the 2008 license for AutoCAD prohibits use of the software outside of the territory in which it's purchased, prohibits resale (see the link I posted in my earlier reply to you), and enables Autodesk to perform (possibly at your expense) audits of all your computers and the software installed on them.

Perhaps if more people read EULAs before investing in a software package, fewer companies would try to pull off such abusive terms as the ones above.Wow .. lol .. install more than 5,000 miles away. I wonder how they came up with that number.

I've seen some doosies, but you'd be surprised at how many companies will try to enforce their EULA's when they are not even legally binding. We actually had a request from Autodesk to audit our systems about 6 or 7 years ago for our AutoCad stations. We told them to F off. They couldn't enforce it, so they stopped calling. Once we told them that we would have them forcibly removed from the premisis, they pretty much figured out that they wouldn't be getting anywhere with it.

but yeah, I've read NT's EULA once. Pretty standard stuff. I trust that they will keep their part of the bargain. I've spent bigger money on dumber things before.. live and learn.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 08:26 PM
AD has also very strict about transferring licenses...so good luck selling Maya is you get bored with it
Did you follow the link (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.ars) I gave you? It puts into serious doubt whether Autodesk can actually enforce the "no resale" clause in its EULAs. Not that I'd trust the courts to protect me from Autodesk's wrath.

Autodesk's EULA is the reason I will never buy an Autodesk product until they change it. I'd rather agree to Newtek's NDA than agree to the terms of Autodesk's current EULAs.

Adrian Lopez
02-07-2009, 08:31 PM
I've seen some doosies, but you'd be surprised at how many companies will try to enforce their EULA's when they are not even legally binding. We actually had a request from Autodesk to audit our systems about 6 or 7 years ago for our AutoCad stations. We told them to F off. They couldn't enforce it, so they stopped calling. Once we told them that we would have them forcibly removed from the premisis, they pretty much figured out that they wouldn't be getting anywhere with it.Good for you. Did you know there's actually a law firm that specializes in defending its clients (http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/autodesk_audit.aspx) against Autodesk's demands for an audit? It's true. They warn:

"Targets who receive letters in an Autodesk audit should treat the matter very seriously. It is important to know your legal rights and protect your legal position before responding to a request for an Autodesk audit. Additionally, many companies who prepare their own responses to Autodesk without the benefit of counsel and before conducting a thorough investigation often receive an unexpectedly high settlement offer from Autodesk. We advise our Autodesk audit clients to ensure that license reconciliations are protected by the attorney-client and work-product privileges if possible."

Hopper
02-07-2009, 08:34 PM
Good for you. Did you know there's actually a law firm that specializes in defending its clients (http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/autodesk_audit.aspx) against Autodesk's demands for an audit? It's true.
Oh I love it... AutoDesk's own greed has spawned a completely new business. "Fighting AutoDesk, Inc".

lwanmtr
02-07-2009, 08:43 PM
Did you follow the link (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.ars) I gave you? It puts into serious doubt whether Autodesk can actually enforce the "no resale" clause in its EULAs. Not that I'd trust the courts to protect me from Autodesk's wrath.

Autodesk's EULA is the reason I will never buy an Autodesk product until they change it. I'd rather agree to Newtek's NDA than agree to the terms of Autodesk's current EULAs.

Hadnt seen the link till now....That is funny. But it is what I would expect from AD. I literally gave away 3DMax7, Cleaner and Combustion, which the program director at the school I was at gave them to me, because I couldnt use them or license them...even though I had all the licenses and paperwork to prove their legality.

Yeah, I have no intention of buying anything from AD

hrgiger
02-07-2009, 08:50 PM
Where does it say this is a binding contract, and where is the part about the duration of all of this wonderful stuff? Also where does it say time farme for delivery of all this wonderful stuff? for all you know they only have to deliver your card, t-shirt, coca verison and private invitations when they send you a copy of annual Q4 product release.

If lighteave core is delivered at the 4th quarter of 09 why do you need continual updates to Lightwave 9.x? Unless the 4th Quarter delivery date is subjective and NewTek doesn't believe they'll make that date. In the past all older versions have been free update to license users, so where is the advantage of that as a membership perk? :tsktsk:

There is no guarantee that Core will be released as a release candidate by Q4. It's merely a projection. There is no guarantee, and no contract so you can be sure that we're going to have to remind people of that when Q4 comes and goes and there's no release. Newtek hasn't promised a release by Q4. They've scheduled it for then and schedules often fall behind in developing software. People would do well to get used to this fact.

Receiving continual builds of Core up until release is a benefit because you have the ability to shape the software you use as it's being created. Not only for reporting bugs, but often times the way Newtek implements a feature or panel for that feature, user feedback often prompts changes in that regard. The biggest advantage of joining hardcore is that you will pay $200 less for the software then someobody who waits for it and you will be able to use the software before them. How hard is it to see the benefit of buying a membership?

frantbk
02-08-2009, 10:57 AM
There is no guarantee that Core will be released as a release candidate by Q4. It's merely a projection. There is no guarantee, and no contract so you can be sure that we're going to have to remind people of that when Q4 comes and goes and there's no release. Newtek hasn't promised a release by Q4. They've scheduled it for then and schedules often fall behind in developing software. People would do well to get used to this fact.

You need to read the printed membership agreement. NewTek has to give you a copy of the 4Q annual product. By their statement NewTek is claiming that will deliver an annual product every 4Q and you will receive a copy. That is part of your membership of $495.00.


Receiving continual builds of Core up until release is a benefit because you have the ability to shape the software you use as it's being created. Not only for reporting bugs, but often times the way Newtek implements a feature or panel for that feature, user feedback often prompts changes in that regard. The biggest advantage of joining hardcore is that you will pay $200 less for the software then someobody who waits for it and you will be able to use the software before them. How hard is it to see the benefit of buying a membership?

Not if the company doesn't listen to you. Listen NewTek is using this membership to cull the beta heard and drop the free beta program without having people complaining. The free beta program is no longer necessary because NewTek is back and people are happy about 9.5-9.6 releases of Lightwave.

NewTek is charging $1495.00 If anything this membership is showing just how much NewTek is over charging for Lightwave core.

Earl
02-08-2009, 11:24 AM
Not if the company doesn't listen to you.
Fortunately for us, NewTek does listen to us.


NewTek is using this membership to cull the beta heard and drop the free beta program without having people complaining. The free beta program is no longer necessary because NewTek is back and people are happy about 9.5-9.6 releases of Lightwave.
People are happy with the 9.6 release because there was an Open Beta program and so many bugs were found and squashed. This could not have been done unless two things exsited: an open beta program, and NewTek listening. I think NewTek's builds for the HardCORE members will yield an effect quite similar to the open beta. I don't think their culling any members. If anything, there will be a lot more serious members from other applications in there who may not have used LightWave 9.x.


NewTek is charging $1495.00 If anything this membership is showing just how much NewTek is over charging for Lightwave core.
I think most users will be comfortable with the new price. There was a time when it cost a LOT more for a LOT less. Now it's heading in the direction of being a cutting-edge leader, so that price is still a bargain. Besides, most users will be able to get the program using the companion upgrade option. Almost anything qualifies these days.

hrgiger
02-08-2009, 11:25 AM
You need to read the printed membership agreement. NewTek has to give you a copy of the 4Q annual product. By their statement NewTek is claiming that will deliver an annual product every 4Q and you will receive a copy. That is part of your membership of $495.00.

Not if the company doesn't listen to you. Listen NewTek is using this membership to cull the beta heard and drop the free beta program without having people complaining. The free beta program is no longer necessary because NewTek is back and people are happy about 9.5-9.6 releases of Lightwave.

NewTek is charging $1495.00 If anything this membership is showing just how much NewTek is over charging for Lightwave core.

I am well aware of how this works. Newtek has to give you a copy of Core with your memberhsip but it may not ship by Q4 if it falls behind. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PROMISE OR GUARANTEE IN SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT. From CEO Jim Plant's Q + A post:

Question 2: How often do you plan to ship a major paid upgrade?
Answer 2: Development plans are just that....plans; but we do hope to ship major paid upgrades more often than we have in the past. The CORE architecture will give us the opportunity to innovate faster than we've been able to previously.

And as far as Newtek goes, they have an excellent track record of listening to it's users. The open beta program has been a big success for both users and Newtek. Were you in the beta program? So many times I have seen someone report an issue and have Newtek come back in a day or two with a resolution. I can't see why that would change now.

And the price increase to $1495 is hardly unreasonable, especially when you consider the price of the other 3 major animation applications. In fact, one could argue that it's just another example of Newtek listening to it's users. Some of us have been wanting Newtek to raise their price for some time. I know, hard to believe isn't it?

Sande
02-08-2009, 11:31 AM
Perhaps if more people read EULAs before investing in a software package, fewer companies would try to pull off such abusive terms as the ones above.
Luckily for some, the whole EULA-issue varies greatly on where you live. For example, here in Finland the usual install-package-read-this-click-yes-to-agree-EULA has no legal meaning whatsoever...

lwanmtr
02-08-2009, 03:41 PM
You need to read the printed membership agreement. NewTek has to give you a copy of the 4Q annual product. By their statement NewTek is claiming that will deliver an annual product every 4Q and you will receive a copy. That is part of your membership of $495.00.

Like so many have said, many times....Q4 is a target date..not set in stone...and if you follow {all} major packages, you'll notice that while some are delivered on time, most often do miss their deadlines...but generally not by much. The Open Beta program helps to speed things up because they dont have to rely on internal staff, or a small closed beta team....


Not if the company doesn't listen to you. Listen NewTek is using this membership to cull the beta heard and drop the free beta program without having people complaining. The free beta program is no longer necessary because NewTek is back and people are happy about 9.5-9.6 releases of Lightwave.

Hey, guess what (and this too has been said before)..NewTek does listen..many bug fixes and even features were completed in the 9.x beta BECAUSE NewTek listened.

The beta program was never free it was open to anyone who purchased Lightwave 9.0 or later..thats the same as it is with Core..The only difference is that with HardCore, you you actually may end up paying less than by not joining and you get access to the Core Beta program..whereas the people who choose to only buy the normal upgrades do not.


NewTek is charging $1495.00 If anything this membership is showing just how much NewTek is over charging for Lightwave core.

Ok...Put this into perspective, eh? $1495 not cheap, yeah...but when you look at as being a modern system that may be on par with Maya ($6995), 3DMax ($4995), XSI ($4995) or C4D (app $6000 with modules), then its quite a reasonable price..Now go to upgrades...Check out the costs for upgrading those packages....But wait, there's more....Di you know that with Lightwave, you can use the Mac, Windoze, or Linux version on the same license? With all those others, you can only use it on the platform you specify at time of purchase.

So, your arguments are moot and pointless.

cagey5
02-08-2009, 03:45 PM
And some (All?) of the other packages mentioned, you are not allowed to sell on if you have no further need of it.

Kuzey
02-08-2009, 03:55 PM
About the 4Q thing, if the product is delayed for a month or two...you will still get your gold version of Core even if your plan runs out.

Didn't Jim Plant say something to that effect in his answer :D

Kuzey

Silkrooster
02-08-2009, 08:21 PM
why yes he did Kuzey. :)

hrgiger
02-08-2009, 08:24 PM
Lighwave-still the best value in town.

Silkrooster
02-08-2009, 10:12 PM
:i_agree: