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LW_Will
02-06-2009, 12:35 PM
Hey NT guys, I was thinking about something...

There's this company, they make great software, but they've been down on thier luck recently. The last release didn't go the way they'd expected, and they user base were quickly running to the competition.

So, then they announce that they are going to make a new, modern program. Total departure from the things that the users found wonky, but still with the old feel and workflows of the old system. Then, they anounced that the new version would be available for the 3Q this year.

Then, they release a beta to their community. Eveyone, well, alot of the people who like the old system but need the new, modern programming came back, tried it, and hopefully will stay with Windows 7 when the big switch over comes in August.

Wouldn't Newtek and Lightwave CORE benefit from this approach?

I don't know how many pros have told me that they WOULD use Lightwave, but for the abilities that are inherent in Maya or XSI. I don't know how many people who've switched from Lightwave to Maya or XSI because of the way that the other programs were more flexable. More programmable.

So, if Newtek would make a beta of CORE just like there is a beta of Windows 7. Make it;



a FULL version, based on the latest beta of course. No weird frame limits, no background image for the renders, nothing. So, you could get some real positive work out of CORE. Impress your friends.

Tell everyone it is a BETA PRE-RELEASE and you are seeking feedback, no only from the Lightwave comminuty but from the entire 3D community as a whole. Inclusiveness if always a good thing.

Have the beta time out before the release of version 1 of CORE.

Offer the HARDCore (at full price) but also have a subscription model that is free... call it SOFTCore... BETACore... whatver... but something to get people into a CORE following. The great strength of this program is not the fabulous programming, but the community around it. Give them some of that. Maybe make them come to the forum to get their Activation Code, or to get training... something to get those people into the act of sharing.


I think that CORE seems to me to be something wonderful. I think if we entice people to come back, to test the waters, we can turn it into an amazing success.

cresshead
02-06-2009, 12:38 PM
sounds like yov'e got the wrong software and company in mind!

microsoft seven beta is not made by newtek!

GandB
02-06-2009, 12:50 PM
You must be thinking of TrueSpace 7.6

crashnburn
02-06-2009, 03:45 PM
I think he's saying that microsoft have made a free beta of windows 7 available (on which I cannot comment as I am not sure) which once the beta phase is complete will then be sold to everyone. And that he thinks Newtek should do the same.

A limited trial beta would help sweeten the deal for anyone with doubts. It certainly would for me if I was to find that investing $395 would be worth the money and not a speculative shot in the dark that could either pay back far beyond it's value or leave me feeling like I lost a pound and found a penny.

LW_Will
02-06-2009, 03:46 PM
Give a beta of CORE out LIKE Windows 7 to the community? Why is that so difficult to understand?

You don't have to be a large company like Microsoft to see that buzz for your product is a good thing. I mean, come on, Win7 IS Vista 2.0, but the perception is that it is totally new code with a new attitude. Heck, they're even altering settings based on User Feedback.

Look, I'm not saying that this marketing push won't work for CORE. What I am saying is that sometimes companies, in the same sort of situation, come up with an idea that moves them from good to great.

See, this is something that Autodesk won't do. Something that Cinema4D can't do (they've rewrote their code already). And this, coming down right here, could be something awsome.

Jockomo
02-06-2009, 04:00 PM
I have a better idea... how about if they just release a DEMO of the product at the same time they release the final. I'm not holding my breath.

Really they don't need that much marketing (not to be confused with none). If they make an excellent product word will get out and people will use it.

mouse_art
02-06-2009, 04:17 PM
You can't compare these two markets, in case of 3d apps, that will not work, i understand your point, but this can't work.

And by the way i rather pre-order core to be in the beta than pay nothing and make the work for MS who is shi.....on their customers.


A Demo on Release will do fine.

OnlineRender
02-06-2009, 05:13 PM
windows 7 dosnt work in my OPP , plus its not compatible with most apps , as i found out , but beta's are good , give's people a chance to put it threws its paces , trust me i invented the rocket jump in QUAKE :)

Dexter2999
02-06-2009, 05:32 PM
Apples and Oranges.

Lightwave is a specific program with limited market appeal.
Windows is bundled with PC's from just about every single major manufacturer. Windows can FORCE you to upgrade. Your options are to try to switch your Multi national corporation all over Mac? or Linux? Not likely. Too much time invested in infrastructure and training to start back pedalling now. MS will tell you how to run your computer and they will take what security priveledges they like. MS is a publicly traded company sitting on mountains of cash. They don't need an influx of cash to help keep things moving smoothly in tough economic times.

No NewTek is right on mark with the way they are handling things. As a user, sure I would like a free Beta of CORE, but as a person who understand the business side of it, I understand why that is'nt going to be an option.

Titus
02-06-2009, 07:12 PM
Rhino when beta was free.

LW_Will
02-06-2009, 08:28 PM
I beg to differ with... well, most of you, except for OnlineRender (way to go guy!)

Microsoft can't force you to upgrade. I've been using WinXP for the whole life of Vista. I HATE the idea of Vista. It sickens me. Blech!

Windows 7 could have been just the same sort of program, I'd've ignored it. But, lots of people I know and respect have taken it for a drive and liked it. Again, it is only Vista 2.0 (or maybe 3.0) but it has a likable face, good driver support, and a very modern feel.

So, now Newtek gives us CORE. A TOTALLY new infrastructure, new code base,. a new system and we are amazed at this. WE think it is the next biggest thing. But, WE aren't who Newtek should be marketing for. They should be trying to get the people who've left, and the people who never used the program.

I'm not saying that they should do nothing but make a demo of CORE (not a bad idea) but I am saying that if they want to seem to be taking ideas from the community and they want to seem to be handing the olive branch to all those people who left, they need something that will help in this. Again, not to say here's a demo, oh and don't buy it. The idea that you could change the industry by actually doing things that the community would never do should not be so radical.

Also, everyone who buys an OS is not a 3D user, but every 3d user buys an OS. The industry is not that different from people who buy OS', Office Suites or hard drives...

Also, where is the down side? You give the software away, it times out in December, you can't use it after that. What have you lost?

And remember, Newtek doesn't sell exclusively to movie and TV companies. They are selling to the general public, the architects, graphic designers, hobbyists, the little guys. You want general, good feeling about the program. You want to change the perceptions in the marketplace.

anim8r
02-07-2009, 12:04 AM
I beg to differ with... well, most of you, except for OnlineRender (way to go guy!)

Microsoft can't force you to upgrade. I've been using WinXP for the whole life of Vista. I HATE the idea of Vista. It sickens me. Blech!

Windows 7 could have been just the same sort of program, I'd've ignored it. But, lots of people I know and respect have taken it for a drive and liked it. Again, it is only Vista 2.0 (or maybe 3.0) but it has a likable face, good driver support, and a very modern feel.

So, now Newtek gives us CORE. A TOTALLY new infrastructure, new code base,. a new system and we are amazed at this. WE think it is the next biggest thing. But, WE aren't who Newtek should be marketing for. They should be trying to get the people who've left, and the people who never used the program.

I'm not saying that they should do nothing but make a demo of CORE (not a bad idea) but I am saying that if they want to seem to be taking ideas from the community and they want to seem to be handing the olive branch to all those people who left, they need something that will help in this. Again, not to say here's a demo, oh and don't buy it. The idea that you could change the industry by actually doing things that the community would never do should not be so radical.

Also, everyone who buys an OS is not a 3D user, but every 3d user buys an OS. The industry is not that different from people who buy OS', Office Suites or hard drives...

Also, where is the down side? You give the software away, it times out in December, you can't use it after that. What have you lost?

And remember, Newtek doesn't sell exclusively to movie and TV companies. They are selling to the general public, the architects, graphic designers, hobbyists, the little guys. You want general, good feeling about the program. You want to change the perceptions in the marketplace.

In my opinion, they are giving it away. It's only $395 as a pre-purchase for the full version of Core--an entirely restructured lightwave, and you get a helluva lot more in the meantime.

I guess I'm one of the very few that think NT has bent over backward to anyone even remotely interested in this product.

OnlineRender
02-07-2009, 02:53 AM
Theres good points from both parties , and to affect both parties are correct , windows 7 is a totally different ball game , I've used it for several weeks and i have sent user feedback and within the next beta its been either changed or fixed build7 , so u can say i built windows LOL , as I use blender which is open-source and free and i have to be honest it does have some good technical ability .

But heres the catch , windows 7 has already been cracked , theres a patch to remove all send feedback links and nuke the timer @which expires in july i think .google it !

realising a beta or a demo as some people may call it ,is a great way not only to QA the product but to find bugs and corrupt data .also HardCOre user will rip it to peices faster than any NT staff will , mainly because each user has different methods and approach to software .

The sad matter of the fact is , within 1 week CORE will be cracked , published to a torrent site , then downloaded amongst the general public .

NT should use the situation and post the torrent first , with hidden code that registers feedback ,similar to a key logger embedded in the software .or as some people call it WINDOWS

IF NT need people too search torrent site and irc channels IM UR MAN

pooby
02-07-2009, 03:15 AM
Firstly, This argument is operating under the assumption that CORE is going to impress everyone from the outset and draw them to the product.
I'm sure that eventually it WILL be impressive, but why would you want the whole world having access to witnessing the teething troubles and growing pains of the new software. This, I'm sure would have a totally adverse effect.
The other point is that Newtek likely need the revenue. I'm sure that many users who pre-order now are driven not only by the reduced price offer, but a chance to jump in and start testing CORE straight away. If they could hold off, look at and test it for free, make a judgement over months, then purchase on release, then Newtek would have far less money coming in over the year.

kopperdrake
02-07-2009, 04:01 AM
I guess I'm one of the very few that think NT has bent over backward to anyone even remotely interested in this product.

Nope you're not the only one - I think the option to get in early is a fantastic opportunity. Sure it buys some income in the shorter term for NT, sure it lets them see just how much interest there is in the new product, but from a user point of view how often do you get the opportunity to be in something from the very start, where they're asking for our opinions, and you get a headstart on other users when the final product ships.

As far as I'm concerned it's a win-win situation.

rolsch
02-07-2009, 04:01 AM
Apples and Oranges.

Lightwave is a specific program with limited market appeal.
...

No NewTek is right on mark with the way they are handling things. As a user, sure I would like a free Beta of CORE, but as a person who understand the business side of it, I understand why that is'nt going to be an option.


Hmm,
look at Vue 7 Pioneer - The Art of Natural 3D! (http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_7_pioneer/),
this is the same market, with free open beta... :dance:

LW_Will
02-07-2009, 09:53 AM
In my opinion, they are giving it away. It's only $395 as a pre-purchase for the full version of Core--an entirely restructured lightwave, and you get a helluva lot more in the meantime.

I guess I'm one of the very few that think NT has bent over backward to anyone even remotely interested in this product.

I can understand this and agree... heck, I'm trying to get HARDCore myself. But what I'm also saying is that they have done marvelous work advancing 9.6. The fact that they are now saying that their 2 year creation of CORE is ready, ready for you to buy it, I think says something about the product.

This isn't going to be a v6 rerun. I think it is prolly very stabile and robust. What they need is feedback from the community.

IF you give people something that they can play with, see its technical advances, and favorably compair it to thier own software, $595 is a significant investment. Too much for a test flight which, if it doesn't work for you, would be a throwaway. Now, make that a free beta release, and the investment becomes something that people might agree to try.

Buying the new upgrade is always on the table. Always. And I think that it might just work.

LW_Will
02-07-2009, 10:01 AM
I'm sure that eventually it WILL be impressive, but why would you want the whole world having access to witnessing the teething troubles and growing pains of the new software. This, I'm sure would have a totally adverse effect.

I've answered this before, but cheifly its because it is its time. Software fails. Maya, 3dMax and XSI have glitches and problems. CORE will have bugs and glitches. But, if you want software to exist in the real world, you can have it work only on your own systems.


The other point is that Newtek likely need the revenue. I'm sure that many users who pre-order now are driven not only by the reduced price offer, but a chance to jump in and start testing CORE straight away. If they could hold off, look at and test it for free, make a judgement over months, then purchase on release, then Newtek would have far less money coming in over the year.

Um, not saying that this gets you anything but beta core and a few discussion boards. There is no discounts, no talking to dev team, and ultimately, no tshirt or ID Card. There are so many of us that are so rabid that they would leap at the chance, I think they've got something like $2mil in one day... not too worried about us. BUT it isn't us they should be worried about.

Philbert
02-07-2009, 10:13 AM
windows 7 dosnt work in my OPP , plus its not compatible with most apps , as i found out , but beta's are good , give's people a chance to put it threws its paces , trust me i invented the rocket jump in QUAKE :)

Just thought I'd through this in, that I have 7 installed on one of my older computers and it runs perfectly. Works fine with any program I've tried and I had no problems with any drivers.

LW_Will
02-07-2009, 10:13 AM
But heres the catch , windows 7 has already been cracked , theres a patch to remove all send feedback links and nuke the timer @which expires in july i think .google it !


Okay, so if we follow the logic, people will be able to run CORE, the beta version... yeah? So?

Look, if the appeal of the software is so limited as others have said, then the appeal of the beta is limited, and finally the actual PRODUCT will have more appeal. AND the idea of this process is changing the idea of the product and what you are buying. You are paying for access to website, developers and swag (shirt, ID card, etc)... and a single version of the software (the release version) they are throwing in the beta at no extra charge.

Look at Monty Python. There shows and bits were being shown on YouTube. Now, they could've descended on the citizens with a ton of lawyers and C&D orders, but they didn't. Instead, they said to the crowd, here are all our bits, use them, play them, trade them with your friends, but please buy our swag and DVDs. The numbers shot up over 2000% on Amazon alone. They gave it away, and the people then turned around and bought it.

It can work, it has worked, and will work again...

RedBull
02-07-2009, 02:03 PM
I don't think a Free Beta is in NT's best interest, Obviously they are trying to increase revenue with Hardcore, So it's fairly counter intuitive to give it away for free.

However I believe there needs to be a free demo or development versions along the way. Over the years i have talked with plenty of 3rd party developers, who will make scripts/plugins for Maya, Max, LW etc....

It's always a constant battle for them to add LW support, because we rarely have had a decent up to date demo version of LW.. For example I worked with Thorsten, from Univeristy of Hannover, http://www.digilab.uni-hannover.de/docs/manual.html to create the Voodoo Camera tracking scripts for LW.

Needless to say i had to send him a LW7.5 Demo CD, to ensure the scripts were working, People like this will not be paying for a full license, just to help NT benefit from their scripts/plugins.

If NT and LW want to have tools that the big boys do, they need to be able to give access to developers to encourage development, especially now we will have a fully workable SDK.

pooby
02-07-2009, 02:16 PM
Look at Monty Python. There shows and bits were being shown on YouTube. Now, they could've descended on the citizens with a ton of lawyers and C&D orders, but they didn't. Instead, they said to the crowd, here are all our bits, use them, play them, trade them with your friends, but please buy our swag and DVDs. The numbers shot up over 2000% on Amazon alone. They gave it away, and the people then turned around and bought it.

It can work, it has worked, and will work again...
__________________


Yes but the difference there is that they're showing good final work..
If they showed the Monty python team in the process of trying to work out sketches and they weren't working or funny at that stage, then I doubt that people would pre-order the DVD's based on that.

OnlineRender
02-07-2009, 02:46 PM
:beta::beta::beta::beta::beta::beta::beta::beta::b eta::beta::beta:

LW_Will
02-09-2009, 12:17 PM
I don't think a Free Beta is in NT's best interest, Obviously they are trying to increase revenue with Hardcore, So it's fairly counter intuitive to give it away for free.


Okay, last word on subject. In the $400-500-700 version of the upgrade you are paying NEWTEK for version 1.0 of the software. They are giving you the beta release of the program for nothing.

An Open Beta release just changes it so the everyone gets they beta.

I fail to see the problem, or the downside.

:beta: forever

Dexter2999
02-09-2009, 12:44 PM
The downside is, if they give the BETA away for free there is less incentive to pre-order. Some people will pre-order because they have faith in the company and want to save money. For most, this is not the case.

This forum has quite a few threads about people complaining about pre-ordering and saving $300. It just doesn't seem to be enough. "I want Beta for free" "I don't want to sign an NDA." Obviously that $300 savings isn't enough on it's own to make people happy. So to get the number of pre-orders up you have to sweeten the deal. That means, t-shirts, memberships, training, and...yes...Beta access.

Like I said before. I know as a user you really want Beta access. I know not everyone can afford the money now to pre-order. I have to find a way myself. Having it for free would be great. BUT, from NewTek's standpoint, they need cash to continue developement in these times when the economy is down (and probably so are sales.) The 9.x cycle has been going for years and we have been getting free point upgrades. The LW department needs a shot in the arm to keep things going.

The 9.6 release, while we think it is great, probably isn't a big enough breakthrough to sway people who were on the fence at the release of 9.0. I imagine sales were brisk at the 9.0 introduction then started to trickle down ever since.

A free Beta is just not in the best interest of NewTek and it's developement team at this point.

biliousfrog
02-09-2009, 12:50 PM
I'm with you on this but it won't happen, not with Newtek. It would do the software a lot of good to have Maya, Max and XSI users pushing it alongside Lightwave users because the others will look at things that some of us won't know anything about. As an example, having just Lightwave people on board means that a lot of people will be amazed at anything remotely different to 9.6 without knowing whether the feature actually works as well as it does in another app.

In the short term, NewTek gets funding to produce the app but, in the long term, it runs the risk of becoming an extremely introverted production which fails to make an impact on the mass market.

Dexter2999
02-09-2009, 01:10 PM
I'm with you on this but it won't happen, not with Newtek. It would do the software a lot of good to have Maya, Max and XSI users pushing it alongside Lightwave users because the others will look at things that some of us won't know anything about. As an example, having just Lightwave people on board means that a lot of people will be amazed at anything remotely different to 9.6 without knowing whether the feature actually works as well as it does in another app.

In the short term, NewTek gets funding to produce the app but, in the long term, it runs the risk of becoming an extremely introverted production which fails to make an impact on the mass market.

I completely see what you are pointing out and I agree. But we will hopefully have users like Pooby and Jin who have used other app's and aren't afraid to say exactly what they think. Those guys aren't "haters" just honest... sometimes brutally so. But that kind of input can be good to a point.

vncnt
02-09-2009, 02:25 PM
It would do the software a lot of good to have Maya, Max and XSI users pushing it alongside Lightwave users because the others will look at things that some of us won't know anything about.

I agree, but this is just 50% of the story.
Other software is not as ideal as they want you to believe. Sometimes caused by an incomplete solution to keep prices low, and sometimes caused by design flaws.

Better focus on job descriptions of the people in the animation business and develop solutions for them.
Understand their goals and (re)design their tools to assist in their processes. Understand why / how often / how efficient / how intense / how limited we are currently storyboarding, moodboarding, character- and set designing, modelling, UV-mapping, sculpting, 3D painting, rigging, deforming, blocking, lipsyncing, posing & animating, silhouette checking, lighting, rendering and yes: even editing.

Create a UI (and engine) that will assist you in these tasks by completely focussing on relevant tools. Plus add a few tools that we really need with native support from Newtek (i.e. no 3rd party plugins that are useless with the next LW upgrade): FluidFX, 3D paint, muscles, pose interface combined for all types of deformations, keyframe defaults, etc.

(And why not develop an integrated version of SpeedEdit to assist in these processes? From script to storyboard to blocking to final version.)

If Newtek believes LW CORE can do this (even if it is very basic) the price of this upgrade is not that important.

virtualcomposer
02-09-2009, 03:06 PM
In my opinion, they are giving it away. It's only $395 as a pre-purchase for the full version of Core--an entirely restructured lightwave, and you get a helluva lot more in the meantime.

I guess I'm one of the very few that think NT has bent over backward to anyone even remotely interested in this product.

I totally agree. Compared to how much work it takes to restructure and redesign AND how much most other 3D animation packages cost as other option, Newtek has a great deal.

virtualcomposer
02-09-2009, 03:08 PM
Hmm,
look at Vue 7 Pioneer - The Art of Natural 3D! (http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_7_pioneer/),
this is the same market, with free open beta... :dance:

Yes but that is their $50 product not $1500

virtualcomposer
02-09-2009, 03:14 PM
I don't think a Free Beta is in NT's best interest, Obviously they are trying to increase revenue with Hardcore, So it's fairly counter intuitive to give it away for free.

However I believe there needs to be a free demo or development versions along the way. Over the years i have talked with plenty of 3rd party developers, who will make scripts/plugins for Maya, Max, LW etc....

It's always a constant battle for them to add LW support, because we rarely have had a decent up to date demo version of LW.. For example I worked with Thorsten, from Univeristy of Hannover, http://www.digilab.uni-hannover.de/docs/manual.html to create the Voodoo Camera tracking scripts for LW.

Needless to say i had to send him a LW7.5 Demo CD, to ensure the scripts were working, People like this will not be paying for a full license, just to help NT benefit from their scripts/plugins.

If NT and LW want to have tools that the big boys do, they need to be able to give access to developers to encourage development, especially now we will have a fully workable SDK.

I totally agree with a free demo. Right now I don't know enough about Core to convince my wife it's ok to spend $400 BUT a demo (not a free version) would help me to understand why I should look past the already awesome 9.6 and invest. Every company needs revenue to continue or their won't be a company at all. I do think Newtek's prices are a very good deal and also, for me, it's not a question of quality but a question of 9.6 compared to Core. Newtek proved to me they care about high quality and the customer a long time ago. Especially in the beta testings.

virtualcomposer
02-09-2009, 03:24 PM
I agree, but this is just 50% of the story.
Other software is not as ideal as they want you to believe. Sometimes caused by an incomplete solution to keep prices low, and sometimes caused by design flaws.

Better focus on job descriptions of the people in the animation business and develop solutions for them.
Understand their goals and (re)design their tools to assist in their processes. Understand why / how often / how efficient / how intense / how limited we are currently storyboarding, moodboarding, character- and set designing, modelling, UV-mapping, sculpting, 3D painting, rigging, deforming, blocking, lipsyncing, posing & animating, silhouette checking, lighting, rendering and yes: even editing.

Create a UI (and engine) that will assist you in these tasks by completely focussing on relevant tools. Plus add a few tools that we really need with native support from Newtek (i.e. no 3rd party plugins that are useless with the next LW upgrade): FluidFX, 3D paint, muscles, pose interface combined for all types of deformations, keyframe defaults, etc.

(And why not develop an integrated version of SpeedEdit to assist in these processes? From script to storyboard to blocking to final version.)

If Newtek believes LW CORE can do this (even if it is very basic) the price of this upgrade is not that important.

I guess I agree on a lot of points in this thread. LOL! You're right. Software company's front face hype never describes the true nature of the software. Every animation company has their "bugs" and they will always exist. To me, what the company's focus is as for tools and functionality and usability is the most important. Don't give me a bunch of garbage I don't need. Adobe is good with that I noticed. I called them today trying to find out how much an upgrade from After Effects, Dreamweaver & Photoshop would be from my current versions which would be about $700. Ok, the lady said well, it would be better to get the package deal that's a "little" more expensive at $1400. Uh, a "little" more??? Look lady, a little more is $15 extra not $700. I got a good laugh at her expense. Anyway, I don't know how I changed topics here but hey, it's the discussion forum and it was software related. :screwy::D

LW_Will
02-09-2009, 04:10 PM
I don't think that Newtek is hurting for money. I also don't think that they are requiring an NDA for Core Beta, could be, don't know... and when the people get the beta, see that is is awesome, and get the full package... they will spend $700, not $400. Isn't that more cash for Newtek?

Like I've said earlier, if you give away software, and people will come back and give you money. This is a fact. With demos, while they are nice, there isn't the implication that you are giving something to anyone.

zeusalmighty
05-12-2009, 05:14 PM
I'm going with the free beta opinion. Not that "yay, it's free" but just because I see the effect it has on me. For example, I had Vista, which completely SUCKED so I downloaded my MSDNAA Windows XP and installed it. As soon as Windows 7 was released, I installed that. Yeah, it was buggy, but it was a good product. Now, I'm actually considering something I have never, ever considered before; paying the upgrade free and get Windows 7 when it's released. Other times, I'd just go with the cheap option and stick to whatever MSDNAA offered me. Now, I can see a good product, and the willingness of the company to push it, so I don't mind paying.

With Newtek, even though you're not actually paying for the beta, it feels you are. And in a way, you actually are. Lets say you like Lightwave so far. Heck, lets say you want to upgrade to 9.6. Newtek comes along and says "Hey, know what, if you upgrade, you get Lightwave Core for FREE!" Yay. Not really. You're telling me that you're rebuilding the software from the ground up. Well, what if I don't like the new version? THEN what? I got a beta that I don't like, AND I get stuck with the last version of a dead-end software? Instead, give me the choice, let me get my hands on it (for free | rebate system | whatever) without actually spending my money and then I'll decide if I like it. If it's all they say it is (the sort of "evolution" of lightwave), then it's guaranteed people won't keep their hands off it.

Instead, what we get is a "fanboy" thing, where newtek expects customers to blindly trust them to deliver a good piece of software. Not even Apple did that, and they're known for relying on their fanboys. Just my 2 cents.

lino.grandi
05-13-2009, 01:43 AM
Free beta is a non-sense, since there's already someone who's paying to closely follow LWCore development.

A demo after the first version of Core will be released could be something good....but not a demo of a beta. Would not be fair towards the ones already partecipating to the Core closed beta.

Nemoid
05-13-2009, 03:10 AM
I think it's simply too late: right now many users payed 395 for accessing hardCORE and having beta yet, it wouldn't be fair giving out a free beta now for free.
So, i think we non CORE users will simply have to wait till release and see if CORE 1.0 is good or not.
if it will be a good start, many users could just jump in, and start using CORE with Lw 9.6 .

Lightwolf
05-13-2009, 03:14 AM
There's also one major difference: LW Core beta is quite a different beast than Win 7 beta in terms of maturity.
And MS would be truly out of their minds if they'd release Windows 0.1 as a free open beta (which would be more equivalent to core by the looks of it).

Cheers,
Mike

zeusalmighty
05-13-2009, 03:55 AM
I'm not arguing whether they should do it now; I'm saying they should've done it from the beginning. I understand that the purpose of the rebuild of the software also serves as a way of drawing people back to Lightwave, maybe people who either left to try one of the other packages, or newcomers. Well, this method is really bad at this. Mainly because, only the dedicated Lightwavers will get/got to the beta. And that's not sufficient to generate enough buzz.


Originally Posted by Lightwolf
There's also one major difference: LW Core beta is quite a different beast than Win 7 beta in terms of maturity.
And MS would be truly out of their minds if they'd release Windows 0.1 as a free open beta (which would be more equivalent to core by the looks of it).

Cheers,
Mike

Yes, you are right about the maturity issue. But there is one big similarity with the two; they both need a boost. Vista generated a lot of negative publicity, and in a way Lightwave suffers from bad publicity too. It's an awesome package, but at times feels like it's stuck in the mid-ages. Some features are waaaaay overdue.


Originally Posted by Veehoy
And managing/distributing this beta alongside Core would take time and recources away from what they really should focus on.....developing Core.

Why? They're already doing it now. What's the difference? Even better, if you're distributing it free, you get to not care so much, since people should expect that it's a beta, it's not supposed to function properly. On the other hand, if people paid for an exclusive beta then they expect some sort of functionality. That's my take on this.

Either way, what I'm saying is, out of all the options Newtek had for promoting Core, they didn't go with the best one. By me, free beta / rebate / whatever could work a bit better than the current option. Also, not god-awful promotional videos would help.

Lightwolf
05-13-2009, 03:59 AM
Yes, you are right about the maturity issue. But there is one big similarity with the two; they both need a boost. Vista generated a lot of negative publicity, and in a way Lightwave suffers from bad publicity too. It's an awesome package, but at times feels like it's stuck in the mid-ages. Some features are waaaaay overdue.
We're talking about Core here, not LW, right? Releasing Core at its current state (as was seen in the reveal video) would do nothing to help Core but could only hurt it. We're talking about a piece of software that is in the fledgling alpha state at best - sending that out as a free beta would be suicidal (unless it's an open sauce project).

Cheers,
Mike

zeusalmighty
05-13-2009, 04:11 AM
We're talking about Core here, not LW, right? Releasing Core at its current state (as was seen in the reveal video) would do nothing to help Core but could only hurt it. We're talking about a piece of software that is in the fledgling alpha state at best - sending that out as a free beta would be suicidal (unless it's an open sauce project).

Cheers,
Mike

(I see what you did there)

I was under the impression that Core IS Lightwave. Isn't Lightwave just going to transition to Core and then Lightwave stop being developed? Anyway, I see your point, you're right on that. But I bet it could happen around Q2, Q3. I mean, there is supposed to be a stable release in Q4, isn't it? I think Newtek is just handling this whole thing wrong. They should at least get some leading artists display a couple of the features that do work.

Lightwolf
05-13-2009, 04:20 AM
I was under the impression that Core IS Lightwave. Isn't Lightwave just going to transition to Core and then Lightwave stop being developed?
Since Core is a complete rewrite there really isn't much of a transition. It's more like Core at first catching up and then (one day) overtaking LW (certainly not this year).

And rather then sending out a free beta in Q3, NT might as well make a demo available in Q4. They're not like MS where it takes 3 months for a OS to go from RTM (release to manufacture, basically the gold master) to a product that is actually available to purchase. (afaik MS are targetting the RTM of Win7 for October, just in time for Christmas).

Cheers,
Mike

Nemoid
05-13-2009, 04:25 AM
CORE is now at a too initial state to properly judge how it will be. Nt asked for users having some sort of faith into a new program, and posted a tech faq ( quite a roadmap)on how they intend to project that product. they put a low price, and some users believed to them, others didn't.

I think the only thing they could do, is to offer a sort of launch price of CORE at release date, for existing Lw users so theyll be able to use it for a cheaper price than retail one. Other than that, putting out a free beta wouldn't be fair for existing HardCORE users.

Eventually, CORE will become the new Lw however, but transition between old Lw and CORE will be of 2 - 3 years in my humble opinion. there will be users skipping for some time CORE until they will not convinced to use it.

hrgiger
05-13-2009, 04:30 AM
Giving away CORE beta free would be the worst idea ever. CORE is very early in development. If you gave anyone with a computer the ability to download CORE, then every Lightwave detractor out there (and there are many) would be judging it on it's current state and spouting off everywhere how it's worse then every program out there. It would be PR disaster.

stone
05-13-2009, 05:07 AM
... and when the people get the beta, see that is is awesome, and get the full package... they will spend $700, not $400. Isn't that more cash for Newtek?

its been said before - but why do you assume that core is in a state thats even usable? you wont see how awesome it is since its not even nearly done. its will feel lacking, broken and unfinished.

best case, guessing, is at least another half a year before its even near quality, stability and enough of a final state that a public demo would make any sense.

letting people get their hands on a product thats in early development will only generate negative press and impressions. your reference to microsofts public beta also implies and requires a finished/near finished product and not the first early builds.

/stone

prometheus
05-13-2009, 05:56 AM
Yeah you have an interesting point here LW_Will, not sure thou if thats the
best approach at this early stage, maybe later.

What they really should do is open up the whole information regarding development progress on how far they have come and releasing update
notes on what they are working on at the moment or what features/modules
been added, doing so will probably gain some wows every time they do it and thus increasing interest, think luxology market or houdini apprentice program.

Michael

zeusalmighty
05-13-2009, 07:07 AM
I was thinking more in terms of if they were to do it now, since I donīt see much use in speculating in "what could have been". This would mean deviating from their original roadmap. A bad idea as far as I can see.

Now, it's too late. They'd be screwing over the loyal customers who did purchase the Core subscription (though, another company did do that, and it didn't hurt them much -apple-). I know it's kinda early, but they need to generate some buzz, something for people to expect. This isn't a new mobile phone, which they could "prep" the public a couple of months ahead, and still generate income. It's a big decision, it takes training, time and lots and lots of money. And as far as I know, so far, more people are moving away from Lightwave rather than to Lightwave. Newtek needs a cool strategy and a kick-*** promotion.

Not that it means anything (at all) but a twitter search for "lightwave core" produces 6 results. :stumped: