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Greyward
02-06-2009, 06:57 AM
Hello all!

I'm sort of a "lapsed" Lightwave user. Last version I own is 7.5. Eventually, a little disappointed with some of LW's features, I moved on to Luxology's Modo. Frankly, in the areas of modelling and UVing Modo is way ahead of current LW. Still, this isn't a diss LW thread; on the contrary, I find that I may need to move back to LW to do some character animation. I could go the cheap way and dig up my 7.5, but 7.5's renderer was atrociously slow. I have an older fprime (2.1 I think) which could make it bearable, but... all of the excitement about LW Core has me interested. Also, I've heard good things about the features and stability of 9.6... plus built-in hair and cloth effects sound great.

My question though is this: what is the state of character animation in LW 9.6? Has rigging and such improved since 7.5? How so? LW was never the king of CA... has it gotten any better? And if not, are there any plug-ins that you'd recommend that seriously improve the process? And hopefully won't leave me too poor? I realize there might be a lot of conjecture about the the capabilities of LW Core, but I need to start doing this within a month or two, not in Q4...

As an aside, how necessary is fprime these days? I have an older version, but I understand it won't work with 9.X? LW 9.6 + LW Core for $495 is fantastic, but if I need to buy LW9.6, plus fprime, plus a CA plugin... then it gets more complicated.

Verlon
02-06-2009, 08:30 AM
FPrime is less needed at the moment due to its not seeing certain nodal materials. Since You mentioned CA, there is a simpleskin shader in the nodes, for example. Fprime 3.2 doesn't see it yet. Worley was waiting at least until 9.6 was done before another update.

I believe the 2-3 update of FPrime is a paid update. I know there was one, but forget which it was.

Still, FPrimes is very convenient for many situations as it is realtime. The natvie render speed improvements make it less urgent, though.

CA got the orthopack built into LW8, and 9 saw the addition of joints. As I don't model outside of Lightwave and never on a deadline, I couldn't tell you how it compares to other apps, only that it is better now than it was in 7.5.

LW3D
02-06-2009, 09:19 AM
check some of the videos..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6IJ4JKKz98

New Bone Tools
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BljvQgXS_WY

FK/IK Blending
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wew8AX3Ib-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhbTRhdJC0E

Rigging Cartoon Dog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJzYA9_Uc30

Also look IKBoost
http://ikboost.com/

geothefaust
02-06-2009, 09:33 AM
While I'm still kind of new to CA in LW, I'd say it's made huge leaps and bounds with 9.6. It's easy to setup stretchy IK chains, up vector, Motion controller blending (IK, target, etc.), and a few other things. Overall, it's a much different application, even when compared to 9.5.

I'd say you can't go wrong with 9.6, especially with CORE coming out, where you can control rotational orders. :)

EDIT: I should point out, there are a few bumps in the road. Primarily the bone tools don't function as well with joints. But they work fine with zbones.

Greyward
02-06-2009, 12:36 PM
Hey, thanks for the replies. Especially for the links, LW3D. Definitely something I'm going to have to keep studying; I have about a month to decide, but its looking more and more likely that I'll be returning to Lightwave.

The whole fprime thing still concerns me somewhat. Its a $150 upgrade from 2 to 3; but we have no idea what fprime's future will be after Core or even if it'll be necessary. For all we know LW Core will have its own built-in preview. That also makes me wonder about the dongle, and weather we'll finaly see and end to the blasted thing.

geothefaust
02-06-2009, 12:40 PM
Hey Greyward,

I used to be so enamored with FPrime, but as time went on... The lust went away pretty quickly. For most of the quick preview stuff I either use viper which, yeah isn't as great, but is close, or just do an F9 at a lower res. That tends to get the job done quick enough for me.

I'm not discounting that FPrime is still useful if you're using an older version of LW, but 9.6 just doesn't seem to need it, IMHO.

Also, CORE looks like it's able to use GPUs where applicable, I'm assuming this means rendering is in the "applicable" area. That should really speed things up quite a bit!

Mr Big
02-06-2009, 07:22 PM
Check out the 11 second club. Proton has posted some free rigs on the 11 second club forum, as well as Nemac. & T4D has released his rigging tools for free... Don't miss out on all the fun.

IMI
02-06-2009, 07:37 PM
Speaking of FPrime... the way it was explained to me, due to the fact that the material nodes require pre-processing prior to rendering, it is a physical impossibility for FPrime now, or ever, to be able to render them.

So unless this Core thingy has a whole new way of dealing with the nodes and how they render, forget about FPrime, I suppose.

But hopefully, Core will have its own preview renderer which works with everything.

jasonwestmas
02-06-2009, 07:41 PM
CA is pretty good now! I still find weight mapping tricky and the OGL is a little boggy. I find most things solid, the new IK is extremely strong and stable. There is way more versatility with the new joint bones, use em. I never get crashes anymore when animating.

IMI
02-06-2009, 07:58 PM
CA is pretty good now! I still find weight mapping tricky and the OGL is a little boggy.

Weight mapping isn't so bad, IMO, but OGL is a *little* boggy?
More like sinking in quicksand with 50 pound lead weights strapped to your character's ankles...

dwburman
02-06-2009, 08:24 PM
I think Fprime2 will still work the way it always has.

Fprime3 adds the capability of previewing nodal surfaces with the exception of some of the material nodes and shaders (with the exception of Worley's G2).

It isn't quite as useless as some people make it sound. :)

Of course, there are some people who think LW is unusable without FPrime, but I've been using a Mac for most of my LW work over the last few years and Worley hasn't released FPrime for the Intel-native version of LW so I've been getting along without it just fine by necessity.

Of course, the render engine improvements make it less of a necessity.

jasonwestmas
02-06-2009, 08:39 PM
Weight mapping isn't so bad, IMO, but OGL is a *little* boggy?
More like sinking in quicksand with 50 pound lead weights strapped to your character's ankles...

Yes, "Quicksand" is the feeling I get too when moving those manipulators around with a mere 30K patches, kinda sad really. I'm pretty sure I've done all I can to speed it up except to use bounding box threshold. I can't animate a character too well with the bounding box object flashing in and out every time I move something so I animate on sub-level 1. I hope there is something to optimize that before core is released.

Did i say 30K patches? I meant polygons :O

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 08:59 PM
Yes, I find my Fprime 3.2 still pretty invaluable with 9.6. I really haven't used a lot of the nodes and while some of the material nodes I Do use dont' work, lighting and layer texturing and animation still work just fine in Fprime. GI is still a treat to use, fast and furious. Plus, I imagine we'll see an update to Fprime soon, Worley said they were waiting for the next version of LW to release(9.6) before they could use any hooks that may have been added to the SDK to bring Fprime more current with LW.

IMI
02-06-2009, 09:11 PM
Yes, "Quicksand" is the feeling I get too when moving those manipulators around with a mere 30K patches, kinda sad really. I'm pretty sure I've done all I can to speed it up except to use bounding box threshold. I can't animate a character too well with the bounding box object flashing in and out every time I move something so I animate on sub-level 1. I hope there is something to optimize that before core is released.

Did i say 30K patches? I meant polygons :O

That's OK, I knew what you meant. :)

They really do need to do something huge with the OGL. It's great with the hair and fur, and textures and transparencies, especially good with the OGL lights and lens flares, and even the GLSL is pretty good.
But man, even a low poly figure with a few textures on it in texture mode and you pretty much slow to a crawl in just one viewport, let alone four. It's maddening. Worse, it's counter-productive. And the OGL complaints and requests have been going on for a looonnnngggg time. It's improved somewhat, but we all know it can be alot better. It needs to be as good as possible. OpenGL isn't weak in and of itself, but it needs to be programmed correctly. Let's hope they've heard the begging and pleading and have gotten the idea by now.

As for FPrime, yeah it's still very useful, especially for fast GI previewing and anything that doesn't use nodes or shadow map spots.
But it's time for LW to move into the future, and that includes material nodes that preview. Not with FPrime, but with CorePrime. :)

Mr Big
02-06-2009, 11:20 PM
Check this video out its my favorite from the january competition

Heres the link http://www.11secondclub.com/competitions/january09/entry/Eb6K6L/

Greyward
02-10-2009, 06:59 AM
Heh, thats a great lil video Mr Big. I actually just picked up 2001 on Blu-Ray (amazing transfer!).

Anyway, I wanted to thank everybody for your answers. I'd forgotten how helpful this board could be. I'm especially glad to hear stuff has gotten more stable when it comes to the IK. Random wobbliness was really a pain in the past. Its also clear to me how out of practice I am with CA... its goint o be quite a shock to get back to it. But I will. And I guess really, LW 9.6 now and Core when it comes out for $495 can't be beat... so I expect I'll be signing up soon.

RebelHill
02-10-2009, 07:09 AM
Im finding in even the latest 9.6 that LWs native IK still leaves a lot to be desired... it aint as twitchy as it once was... nowhere near... but it still aint rock solid...

that said... ive been using the PLGik plugin (free) for ages, and that lil guys bulletproof... also enables u to pull of certain tricks that LW cant seem to do by itself... though there are a few new tricks in 9.6

Anyways... check the sig... everything on show there as far as rig n animate goes u can do with lw 7.5 and up...

deformations with joints in 9.6 are, however... far superior.

jasonwestmas
02-10-2009, 07:15 AM
Im finding in even the latest 9.6 that LWs native IK still leaves a lot to be desired... it aint as twitchy as it once was... nowhere near... but it still aint rock solid...

that said... ive been using the PLGik plugin (free) for ages, and that lil guys bulletproof... also enables u to pull of certain tricks that LW cant seem to do by itself... though there are a few new tricks in 9.6

Anyways... check the sig... everything on show there as far as rig n animate goes u can do with lw 7.5 and up...

deformations with joints in 9.6 are, however... far superior.

The Bone Curve Plugin is really, really nice. Though the 64bit version won't let you add controllers for some reason. I expected something like this for 9.6 but alas it seems not to be important to NT for the 9 series.

jaxtone
02-10-2009, 03:39 PM
In comparizon Lightwaves CA sucks! It has always been a weak part of LW and only the bravest men without any thing else important in their lifes have the guts to get deep into that dark cave of work arounds! :)

Itīs obvious when you start up with it and for example wanīt to adjust individual settings for IK-chains and their belongings! Itīs a real time consuming/old fashioned way to type and write digits for each separate unit!

If you wanna use LW for CA I would suggest Maestro! More information at Stillwater Pictures!

http://www.stillwaterpictures.com/maestro/

Greyward
02-11-2009, 07:49 AM
Well, I'm brave Jaxtone, but I'll take all the help I can get! Maestro seems a decent choice and rather full featured, but I'm a little worried about investing in plugins that will quickly become useless when Core launches. Still, I notice they do have a demo version. I'll give it a spin, and see if it really blows my mind.

But, erm... what is PLGik? The freeness intrigues me. What is it and where can I get it?

jasonwestmas
02-11-2009, 08:29 AM
Well, I'm brave Jaxtone, but I'll take all the help I can get! Maestro seems a decent choice and rather full featured, but I'm a little worried about investing in plugins that will quickly become useless when Core launches. Still, I notice they do have a demo version. I'll give it a spin, and see if it really blows my mind.

But, erm... what is PLGik? The freeness intrigues me. What is it and where can I get it?

In case no one told you about "flay.com" you should go there every time you want to fill a void in your tool set. Click on the plugin tab and then do a search. I've found many a plugins there that I never new existed and the older ones tend to work with the new versions of LW.

Here's the PLG link:)

http://flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=2307

ericsmith
02-12-2009, 08:05 AM
Well, I'm brave Jaxtone, but I'll take all the help I can get! Maestro seems a decent choice and rather full featured, but I'm a little worried about investing in plugins that will quickly become useless when Core launches. Still, I notice they do have a demo version. I'll give it a spin, and see if it really blows my mind.

As I really look at all the info about CORE (although I admit that requires a lot of reading between the lines), it seems pretty clear that it's not going to replace the current LW for some time. I'm could swear I read a comment from Jay stating that it would be more focused on replacing modeler than layout in the early stages, but I've searched and I can't find his post at the moment.

The way I see it, by the time CORE is ready for full production character animation, we will have had plenty of time to migrate Maestro into the new architecture.

Eric

RebelHill
02-12-2009, 08:25 AM
only the bravest men without any thing else important in their lifes have the guts to get deep into that dark cave of work arounds!

rubbish!!... setting up good character rigs in LW is no more time consuming or involved than it is in the likes of maya, csi, or whatever else... LW falls behind when it comes to more complex co-ord, and hierarchical elements of rigging (solid constraints, reverse hierarchies, etc)... and of course LWs never had as robust a deform toolset.. but theres still ways to do the vast majority of whats needed for a fully controlable character rig.

Rigging is a technical challenge in any software... LW may not have the greatest range of tools targeted at this specific area... but its nowhere near the 3 legged horse it keeps constantly getting bashed as.

bta1701
02-12-2009, 08:37 AM
The way I see it, by the time CORE is ready for full production character animation, we will have had plenty of time to migrate Maestro into the new architecture.

Eric

Eric, I'm very happy to hear that you expect to have Maestro migrating to CORE. I have become quite fond of Maestro, and even if CORE has whiz-bang CA tools, the Maestro controller tech is too cool to give up.

bart

Nicolas Jordan
02-12-2009, 08:53 AM
Rigging is a technical challenge in any software... LW may not have the greatest range of tools targeted at this specific area... but its nowhere near the 3 legged horse it keeps constantly getting bashed as.


:agree: It seems Lightwave gets to much flak in this area that is really undeserved mostly. I have used other programs for rigging like Maya and messiah and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I would argue that after the improvements in 9.6 some of the rigging and character setup tools in Lightwave rival those in messiah in some areas like IK/FK blending etc. but messiah still seems much better at things like expressions for more customized setups. The truth is that Lightwaves native tools are good enough for 95% of CA needs.

Castius
02-12-2009, 09:21 AM
There was three major problems with IK. It was missing a pole vector an easy system for IK/FK blending and constraints that worked with IK. LW 9.6 added those missing features. Plus a bunch of other goodies. But with that is also added even more to learn. The good part is that there more positive things to learn now than what not to do.

A lot of good animator turn off IK fast as they can. That's why it was so important to have IK/FK blending added. Before 9.6 it took a TD or a plugin to get this benefit. Constraints are still not as easy as Maya or XSI. but with "same as item" you can get a lot more done now.

Here is a list of things you don't need to worry about any more.


Can't use IK and targeting together. IK couldn't see the targeting motion.
Match Goal orientation couldn't be baked out. (Same as item replaces match goal)
Goal strength could not be animated.
Couldn't use motion plugins to constrain parts of your rig with IK. (Same as item fixed a lot of that)
Couldn't use Nulls in your Bone hierarchy. You had to make null bones. (bones that don't influence deformation)


Things you still need to know.

Gimble is still your enemy. Use offsets!!!
You still need a prebend angle in your IK. (It can be animated now though!)
You should set "unaffected by IK of descendants". To define the root of your IK.
Limit the use of motion modifiers. Use "Same as Item" in it's place.
Pole item is your friend.
Stiffness is great for removing the mechanical looks of IK
Limits can help IK calculations.
Limits the number of rotation channels set to IK per item.(To prevent Gimble lock)


Rigging is a technical art form. Much like modeling. You can get a model done but every time you do it you find better more optimized ways to do it.

The most important thing is I've learned. You must be able to understand and work around gimble without any tools in the application. Simple offsets (multiple objects parented together) will solve just about any issue that comes your way.Not reset pivot rotation! It's the same in every program. It's just more in your face in LW. The rest are a mix of do's and don't. Because of poor designs method in LW motion system. Some of which you don't need to worry about in 9.6 anymore. I'd say you only need to worry about how motion modifier have to work either before or after IK. So it's best to use same as item now in 9.6. Instead of a motion plugin. And to get the best speed out of LW IK make sure you use Unaffected by IK descendant. It defined the root of your IK and tells LW where to start calculating IK.

:beerchug:

PLG IK does rock though. But I'm not sure I'd use it now. Unless i needed it's for it's arbitrary limits or bone Chain.

kopperdrake
02-12-2009, 11:08 AM
Just to reiterate Jaxtone's push of Maestro. First, and last, time I tried to animate a character was way back in 5.5. With the 9 series seeming more robust I saw Eric's Maestro and plumped for it - it's been a lifee-saver on the first character animation job I've dared to take on since using LW. I'm not creating Final Fantasy or anything, but now I can simply weight map a character, apply a default rig, and get a 300 frame simple walk cycle with a few fancy moves thrown in, in less than a day. And that's as a novice character animator - I'm sure if you've done it before you'll be quicker :)

RebelHill
02-12-2009, 11:20 AM
PLG IK does rock though. But I'm not sure I'd use it now. Unless i needed it's for it's arbitrary limits or bone Chain.

I use it to avoid the need for offset bones to avoid gimbal lock... I forever switch back forth between FK/IK when im animating, and with LWs IK u still need a two bone solution at 3d joints (hip/shoulder) to prevent gimbal and flipping... but then when u go back to FK... uve now got to use 2 sodding bones to do ur FK animating... which is a pain to keep track of... a real pain to keep the ease in/out in the curves matched (u get shudders if they overlap wrong)... its just an enourmous pain in the arse imo...

9.6 has seen many improvements and u can do some cool stuff u couldnt before... but as far as control over IK chains goes.... PLG still kicks LW into touch.

jasonwestmas
02-12-2009, 11:38 AM
I use it to avoid the need for offset bones to avoid gimbal lock... I forever switch back forth between FK/IK when im animating, and with LWs IK u still need a two bone solution at 3d joints (hip/shoulder) to prevent gimbal and flipping... but then when u go back to FK... uve now got to use 2 sodding bones to do ur FK animating... which is a pain to keep track of... a real pain to keep the ease in/out in the curves matched (u get shudders if they overlap wrong)... its just an enourmous pain in the arse imo...

9.6 has seen many improvements and u can do some cool stuff u couldnt before... but as far as control over IK chains goes.... PLG still kicks LW into touch.

I think if you lock and hide the offset bone for IK chain you can avoid accidently selecting and keying it.



I'm finding solutions just fine in skeletal rigging/animating using 9.6 except:

-For pole vector target nulls there doesn't seem to be a way to turn that off and on easily if you want to use IK blending. I can still do IK/FK blending with arms and legs but sometimes the target nulls get in the way if they are still turned on. There is the new MC off and on switch but that effects all motion controllers, not just one or two which makes FK on the upper body but IK on the lower body a little less than desireable.

-Still no solution for spline IK on tails and spines on creatures. I still have to rely on the PLG curve bone plugin.

RebelHill
02-12-2009, 11:47 AM
I think if you lock and hide the offset bone for IK chain you can avoid accidently selecting and keying it.

Problem there is that when u switch back to FK from your IK... the offset bone will just swing back to its rest rotation, leaving the IK switch key u placed on the main limb bones no longer match up with the IK solved pose... and thats a pain to animate out the transition....

geothefaust
02-12-2009, 12:03 PM
That's true, but I've just been keying the particular bones before I switch to FK. It's more work, but.... It's the only solution currently.

If you did hide them, as Rebelhill pointed out, you wouldn't have access to those bones, and you need them to animate with FK.

Castius
02-12-2009, 01:38 PM
Have you looked at this setup red?
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=808765&postcount=45

RebelHill
02-12-2009, 02:07 PM
Have you looked at this setup red?
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=808765&postcount=45

thats very nice.... solid and stable... i like it.... it is however more complex to do... not that theres anything wrong with that... rigging can be complex... but this is still faster and simpler with PLG

oooh yeah... and there was another thing i came across recently... I was working with an LW IK rig and needed to repin the IK goal to the body and space switch... but LW IK could no longer see the goal position correctly when that goal was constrained to another item... PLG however sees it no probs.

geothefaust
02-12-2009, 02:27 PM
I'm trying to figure out the best way about going about setting up pinning for IK limbs.

Similar to how you have your setup RebelHill, actually. But I'm hitting a few walls. Spare an idea or two? I'd prefer not to use PLG if I can. I'm trying to do everything in LW natively.

EDIT: Hey also, in your rigging reel, I notice you have custom null shapes (the arrows and such). How did you do that? I can't for the life of me, figure it out. I've searched on flay, and other places. Can't seem to find a plugin to do it.

RebelHill
02-12-2009, 02:47 PM
I know of no way to do it natively in LW.... LW I think must solve IK before resolving absolute item positions... so it seems LW IK cant rach for a goal thats constrained to something else in certain ways... (maybe it can see "same as item", but that was no use in my situation)...

So PLG it is... its a fantastic tool... it can do some great stuff, and "see" things that LW native cant...

As for using plg in both the current release of LW, and repinning... this vid i did explains some stuff...

http://www.rebelhill.net/bits/csm_ik95.mov

Oh and as for the nulls... they were called L Nulls, and Box O Nulls... ull find em on flay, thats where i got em..

geothefaust
02-12-2009, 02:56 PM
Hey thanks man. Appreciate it! Looks like I'm going to dig into PLG.

And big thanks on the nulls. I couldn't figure out how people were doing it.

RebelHill
02-12-2009, 03:03 PM
oh yeah... if ur interested...

www.rebelhill.net/bits/tstrigs.zip

the rig on show in my reel... a couple different versions of it (though i think maybe not set up for 9.6... u may need to change that twist for twist target (pole) as per the vid).

geothefaust
02-12-2009, 03:11 PM
Cool cool. Thanks for sharing the rigs too. In fact I was just taking a gander at Jerico w/ PLG, you had sent them to me a number of months ago. No doubt others will surely find them helpful. :)

jaxtone
02-12-2009, 05:29 PM
I agree with the fact that rigging is a technical challenge in any software, but thatīs kind of obvious, isnīt it?

I disagree when you say CA in Lightwave is just as frictionless as in Maya and XSI! Thatīs simply not true and I hope this is one of the reasons that NT finally decided to kill the old concept with to many work arounds to be interesting for the majority of users! (I hope Im not discriminating any minority groups by saying that I personally prefer to be creative with the stuff that interests me directly instead of twisting and tweaking in never ending technical processes!)

I guess you prefer workarounds more than me by saying this:

... but theres still ways to do the vast majority of whats needed for a fully controlable character rig.

Of course there are ways since both you and me know that there will always excist alternative solutions for almost anything you do in a digital environment! The question is why anyone would enjoy spending time fighting with dead horses! :D



rubbish!!... setting up good character rigs in LW is no more time consuming or involved than it is in the likes of maya, csi, or whatever else... LW falls behind when it comes to more complex co-ord, and hierarchical elements of rigging (solid constraints, reverse hierarchies, etc)... and of course LWs never had as robust a deform toolset.. but theres still ways to do the vast majority of whats needed for a fully controlable character rig.

Rigging is a technical challenge in any software... LW may not have the greatest range of tools targeted at this specific area... but its nowhere near the 3 legged horse it keeps constantly getting bashed as.

Castius
02-12-2009, 06:31 PM
There is also this plugin.
CustomNull create custom objects from your LW object data
http://www.hurleyworks.com/Downloads/C/customNull.zip

geothefaust
02-12-2009, 07:32 PM
There is also this plugin.
CustomNull create custom objects from your LW object data
http://www.hurleyworks.com/Downloads/C/customNull.zip

Ah yes! Thank you sir. Fantastic.

Greyward
02-13-2009, 06:29 AM
D'oh!

This has become quite a serious discussion. I'm definitely bookmarking this thread. Its gonna be interesting when I finally get to animating.

geothefaust
02-13-2009, 09:51 AM
Perhaps a solution... I tested out some stuff with PLG and it looks like it can basically do "Same as Item" (henceforth 'SAI'). But with my limited experience with it, I couldn't produce anything worthwhile in the dynamic parenting department.

However, I got to thinking while doing it. Why not just set up multiple nulls, parent them to their respective bones (for instance in a rig, the hip, head, or whatever), and set SAI for each concurrent location that you want to use as a pin.

It would require a LOT more work, maybe more then it's worth. Especially when it comes to wanting snappy movement, it needs more keyframes and editing the f curves. Overall not too big a deal, but truly the result is exactly what most people are looking for with a dynamic parenting scheme, or space switching.

Anyway, I've provided a scene with what I'm talking about. It is VERY crude. By gets the point across, and it was only a simple test.

I don't know if anyone else has used this method, but anyway, I hope someone finds it useful or can improve upon if it is [useful].

adamredwoods
02-14-2009, 10:27 PM
Hi.

I looked at some of my old scenes. It seems some of the 9.6 betas worked the IK differently than it does in the 9.6 release. Doesn't seem to work as well.

Does anyone else notice a difference? Should this be reported?
I'm going to do more tests.

adamredwoods
02-14-2009, 10:33 PM
More debate on this thread:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94730&page=2